I think many messages on this forum are really in the realms of science fiction.

Apart from the obvious nonsense involving mixed p.e. classes and Jocari bats, there is the more sinister stories claiming it was possible for non-female teachers to slipper senior girls at the drop of a hat. This did not happen regardless of what anybody says.

I attended both mixed and private girls schools in the UK during the late 1970s and mid 1980s.

In the case of mixed schools, girls were only ever slippered if at all by the senior mistress or possibly the gym mistress. It was only done privately in their respective offices or perhaps an empty classroom. The vast majority of girls that attended a mixed school during that time would have experienced no corporal punishment whatsoever.

In a private girls school it was easier for a female teacher to administer mild forms of cp in front of the class, however this rarely if ever involved slippering. All punishment involving implements of any kind was carried out in the privacy of the study of either the senior mistress or sometimes the gym mistress. Admittedly some of it was rather severe by today's standard but is only administered for relatively serious misconduct.

Anybody who thinks a non-female teacher could just wander around and slipper senior girls at will, needs a reality check.

Heather says:

Anybody who thinks a non-female teacher could just wander around and slipper senior girls at will, needs a reality check.

So does anyone who, for whatever reason, can't bring themselves to use the word 'male'!

In a reasonably long life I cannot recall ever encountering a hermaphrodite teacher!

And I'm very sorry to tell you this Heather, I do hope it doesn't come as too much of a shock but

[Switches to very small and faint text so as not to alarm Heather too much]

I've actually seen male teachers slipper girls in the classroom in front of mixed classes!

Another lurker makes a fair point.

Of course by far the vast, vast majority of punishment on girls was administered by women , but not all.. Certainly there have been those who have quite openly written or publicised punishment by male staff, Just refer either to the files of STOPP or to Margaret Stone's ' Corporal Punishment of Schoolgirls( 2002),( I won't quote names here , as they are not on official public record but you can look them up easily : at least two cases one involving celebrity see pp70/71) or even CORPUN on the web for examples , some again well known celebrities. Now you may dismiss these, but you would need some solid grounds as to why and how these stories were fabricated.....but legal cases and Government Research below is even more difficult to dismiss. .

Caning sometimes also involved men . Regina versus Gilchrist indicates a successful appeal against conviction by a male teacher accused of having excessively caned a14 year old girl. As late as 1981 Campbell versus Worcester Education authority is similar.,(16 year old girl punished (cane ) by a male teacher with a male witness) the parents in this case losing at the first hurdle..Often cases that get to law are the hard cases that ultimately make bad law,.

In 1988 at St Audries School Somerset, who freely publicised their use of caning of girls by the Headmaster in the Somerset Free Press. Here the girls and their parents actually voted on the School punishment policy (op cit 194/5)

Finally we must not forget Scotland where official figures demonstrate that before abolition girls were tawsed or 'belted' regularly , if less than boys....one survey by the Scottish Council for educational research finding about 570 girls out of 1,000 had been 'belted' compared to around 800 boys England pales into insignificance here! ( and not one edible tawse to be seen , just real leather.....not one motorised tawisng stool...this real reality WAS before the internet!) Even allowing for a good dose of experimental error.......this is quite some figure! Less girls sure, probably less strokes per punishment, and a lot less regualtion than in England., but surely not a result obtained with not a man in sight!


One swallow doesn't make a summer . This doesn't in any way support the thesis that because some girls were punished by men , most or many were. Rather the opposite. But as with everything there are exceptions that prove the rule . This doesn't excuse gross fabrication , but life in the 60's and 70's was a lot messier than we might wish to think. ~What seems shocking today seemed quite normal then. You have to judge by prevailing social norms.

This isn't meant to be a definitive or detailed response, I've only used a couple of sources easily in reach of this single computer, a nice walk down to the library, or a trawl of the 'reality' internet will give many more.

But I certainly agree with your last line, Heather.,what with STOPP and NUSS, let alone complaints , but again it could be the exceptions that prove the rule........ Don't confuse the unusual with the non existent, and yes lets keep it real not go to la la land.....but real doesn't mean 'none', maybe not many, maybe a few, maybe some.....but none, not one... that's a Herculean task.

Here we go again!

On the subject of Jocari bats, may I simply say that the person with whom I was in correspondence left me in no doubt that she was telling the truth, simply because she backed it up with evidence on two other forums long before I became aware of their existence, and this has been borne out by other postings - if you wish to cross swords with me madam, feel free to do so, but be aware that whatever your agenda, I have neither the time nor the inclination to post rubbish on this forum. However, I will respond vigorously to anyone who questions the veracity of my postings.
Maybe you are applying your 'knowledge' to what happenend in the UK - a common misconception on this forum.
If you wish to challenge me on what I have posted, I will produce all the proof you need to change your mind. On the other hand, if you are simply trying to be provocative, please take your provocation elsewhere. The more serious posters on this forum deal only in facts - over to you!

There is no doubt the tawsing of girls by ' non female' teachers in Scotland was very widespread. I have many relatives as well as friends from Scotland who have confirmed this. The fact the punishment was on the hand does of course reduce the sexual element.

It was much rarer in England for girls to be punished by male teachers but as has been pointed out numerous times by contributors to this forum it clearly did happen.

I am not saying that it never happened, but girls were not slippered willy nilly at the whim of some non-female teacher wandering around school premises.

So why the comment about the Jocari bat then? What were you saying exactly - that I made it up?
Have we got another 'Real Girls were never caned' poster?

Heather writes I am not saying that it never happened, but girls were not slippered willy nilly at the whim of some non-female teacher wandering around school premises.



A forum such of this combining recollections from different eras, different schools over an extensive period, would collectively give the impression that CP was rife on a daily basis in as many schools thereof, country wide , including reasonable number of incidences involving girls and male teachers

99.9% of posters to this forum being male, it stands to reason memories and personal recollections relating to the chastisement of girls raise interest, Over a 12 year period, the time most of us here spent in the education system, are of such intelligence to work out these collective incidences of CP were spread considerably over time, no one is really suggesting that non-female dare i say MALE teachers spent their entire day seeking out girls to bend over unless of course you are one of the several fantasy posters to this forum, .

Neither were female PE teachers bestowed the honour or responsibility of regularly giving girls a good seeing to in private or state schools, such as our fun/fantasy posters would have us believe.

Ketta

KETTA

To be fair to Heather, if she also attended a female private school, it's a fair bet her mixed school was either private, or a fairly good-class state school.

So, it's unlikely the sort of thing JJ's claimed would have happened there. Even so, I'm astonished at what my research on Bacons School produced; because, for a good-class school, the amount of girls caned was so absurd that, had we not already seen it on Corpun, we'd have laughed at anyone who claimed it on here as true.

I think there was more girls' CP in Heather's era than she realises, and for male teachers to be doling it to girls out was not rare, just in the minority.


Steve M

Ketta: Lets do some Math. I have to use my Physics degree for something. I assume when you say: 99.9% of posters to this forum being male you know that doesnt mean 1 in a 100 for if you move the decimal one over you get 1 in a 1000. It's a hyperbole.

Most participant of the teachers chat boards are females and teach on the secondary level although the majority of teachers are male at that level. Amidst thousands of posting a handful of them deal with CP. Furthermore, paddling in the younger grades is where female teachers, a la TWP, abound just as as males abound on the high school. Keep in mind Principals are even more overwhelmingly men and some schools limit CP solely to the Principal. Real accounts reflect the most prevalent way that girls are paddled. To keep it real and contemporary this entry in the Mississippi chat board reflects the everyday high school life. More than half the state population are in schools (urban populace) that ban CP so when you factor that in your chances are one in four that you would be no stranger to the paddle in your four years in high school between fourteen years old to eighteen years old in the districts of the state that permit it. Female coaches paddle, not because they are in better shape or because they hit harder than the male vice principal, but because gym classes are not coed and unlike teachers they have the girls not in just a few classes or homerooms. There is nothing unreal found in the following postings.

The link from June 8th but obviously updated, how up to date can you get?

http://teachers.net/states/ms/topic700/6.23.09.07.39.02.html

Re: corporal punishment
Posted by: pink on 6/23/09
Posted by: TKIA LAN on 6/23/09
On 6/22/09, Hailey WR wrote:
On 6/17/09, that doesnt quite make sense wrote: I am a fan of using corporal punishment with younger kids that don't have the reasoning skills to understand, but do you honestly think that because the kids choose it, it is the more effective option? They choose it b/c it is over and done with and they don't have a long term consequence. They don't want Saturday detention b/c that would be true inconvenience.

Getting paddled one time in high school was enough for me. The lady that
administered the swats was a coach and former college athlete who was about
6 feet tall and swung the paddle like she was hitting a home runs. 5 licks
= probably the worst pain I have experienced. It was like literally having
your butt roasted. I was 17 and a pretty tough chic, but if there had been
a next time I would have taken detention. No way was I going to bend over
for her again. I was paddled once in school (11th grade) and chose it b/c if you had an in school suspension you had to take all your final exams. I also didnt think it would hurt that much. I was wrong. The main long term consequence was that it hurt for about a week. I think getting paddled at school had a much greater effect at this age than it would of in younger grades. A large part of it is the embarrassment and humiliation of the process of getting paddled and the rest of the school knowing about it.

At our high school, girls who chose a paddling got their swats from a female
coach. As it turned out, this coach paddled much harder than the male vice
principal, so the girls actually got it much worse than the guys. I remember
standing in the locker room with three other girls getting paddled while I
waited my turn and thinking I had definitely made the wrong choice.

Hi American Way. Other than trying to dictate how you do your links, which you seem to have taken in very good part I've kept out of the American way with CP for a time. However, waiting for my interminable virus checker to finish so that I can have an early night I happened to scan the 'previous links' associated with your link to Teachers Net above. I was somewhat surprised to discover this post dated 02 June 2009 from someone called Emily L who claims to teach in a suburban High School in Mississippi.

Possibly I am mistaken in assuming that there would normally be roughly equal numbers of male and female students in a Suburban High School, but unless there is a very substantial gender imbalance in the school concerned the paddling statistics quoted by Emily L seem to me very unusual to say the least. Certainly the High School concerned appears to put a notorious UK school¹ where a very high proportion of female pupils were caned completely in the shade!

I wouldn't normally give a link and copy/paste the item, but in this case it is fairly brief, so I will do so:

In the suburban high school where I teach, students may choose between a paddling and some alternative punishment like Saturday detention for things like excess tardies, parking violations, profanity, etc.

Almost all students choose the corporal punishment. Girls must be paddled by a female teacher/administrator and usually go to the coaches' office in the girls' locker room to be paddled.

Students usually get 3 to 5 licks on the buttocks with a large wooden paddle. These are full on licks and a paddling is very painful and students are usually sore for a few days, escially when sitting down, jogging, etc. Still, it is greatly preferred to spending a Saturday in detention.

Here are the stats for last year. There are a about 1800 students in the school.

Total paddlings:

9th grade boys: 168
9th grade girls: 85

10th grade boys: 138
10th grade girls: 103

11th grade boys: 128
11th grade girls: 151

12th grade boys: 119
12th grade girls: 176

What on earth do you think happens to girls in that school from the 10th grade onwards that causes them to first catch up and then substantially overtake boys in the paddling stakes? I find the very high number of girls paddled in the 9th grade somewhat disquieting, but the subsequent grade totals are just amazing!

The title of this thread happens to be 'Keep it real!'. From your experience are these figures likely to be real, or is Emily L analogous to the 'fun' posters in this estimable Forum with their liquorice tawses and exclusive Scottish boarding schools?

I hope you can throw some light on the issue, Another_Lurker is not easily shocked when it comes to school CP, but he's certainly shaken by this if it is likely to be true!

Note 1: See the 'Girl caned at Bacons by the infamous Mr Ing' thread here. In the late 1970s this notorious for caning girls 1000 pupil London mixed comprehensive school caned girls about 200 times a year. Pro rata, the figure for paddlings of girls in the Mississippi High School above are around 43% higher than this!

LMAO at those figures too. The Juniors and Seniors girls must have been hit with a licorice paddle or maybe a limp wristed man. The fantasy posting got way out of line and the moderators of the forum had to intervene below. God forbid if anything ever happened like that here. The statistics was previously posted by someone who claimed to be an Arkansas teacher and now has morphed into a Mississippi one. Numbers are taken seriously in the 21 states that do paddle, like the numbers I posted from the DOE of Kentucky and Florida. Statistics are sent to the government for official counting (new annual numbers due this August for 2007 to 2008). Our statistician in the above posting should bring his slide ruler to class.

They had some amusing fantasy posting for example, none more amusing, where all the girls who just graduated from college had to receive a sample paddling from male teachers if they had never been on the receiving end when they were in high school. I guess that meant as rookie teachers the bad high school girls were exempt. The best was the one who was told to take it on the bare on account of her being older that would be the equivalent to a student taking it over the jeans. Even more amusing were the gullible teachers who counseled them to see the authorities for sexual harrassment. They didn't see through it until copycat posters turned the sample paddling ritual into a statwide phenomenom. When they start fixating by giving color commentaries or details about soreness it's a dead giveaway.

Seriously, there are psotings that sound real to me. A discussion ensued under my 2/28 posting at 5:52 under Southern Handbooks where I was in a quandary. The nice thing about this esteem Forum with first hand accounts you have the benefit of cross examination, but on the subject of male teachers paddling girls we have more female posters than readers but not one in one thousand.

http://teachers.net/states/ar/topic497/5.28.07.21.16.36.html

Re: Glad to see this chatboard looking better (my 2 cents wo
Posted by Jack/AR/7-8 on 3/04/09
On 3/04/09, two cents more wrote:
> NFM: I reported the mind-numbing, ad nauseum entries
> concerning corporal punishment to the moderator who quickly
> removed them. Each time one appears here, I shall do the
> same.
>
> 2 cents more
Thank you very much!

My take is where paddlings are frequent it's considered no big deal but when others hear about it you have controversy as in the case of an Alabama eighth grader who seems to think it's no big deal. I'm sure she was surprised at the number of comments generated. I think she did commit the offense of public display of affection in spite of her denials. Don't you? If she were your little girl how would you react to her second video? My wife would know how to handle that little brat and how to deal with the parents of her love toy as well before I got my hands on them. I think the parents need to keep her offline and in line. Don't you? Many perhaps have seen my you tube first link before but not the subsequent commentary. It could all be a ruse to gain attention but what do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sibo8PjXZlYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbS2GUaJ0pw

Copy Paste from Alabama Law. Yes, it's for real.

BLOUNT COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION
Post Office Box 578
Oneonta, Alabama 35121-0578
Telephone (205) 625-4102
Facsimile (205) 625-4100

Corporal punishment must be administered by the principal, assistant principal or
teacher.
The corporal punishment must be witnessed by another adult which must be a
principal, assistant principal or another teacher.
Corporal punishment must not be administered in front of other students.
Corporal punishment must be reasonable and not severe enough to cause bodily
injury. Corporal punishment must not be cruel or inhumane and must never be
administered with malice. Corporal punishment must be documented stating the
name of the student, the reason for the punishment, the type of the punishment,
the signature of the person who administered the punishment, the signature of
the witness, and the date of the punishment. This documentation must be
retained until the student graduates or achieves the age whereby he/she should
have graduated for a student who ceases to attend school.
Married students are subject to the same rules and regulations as other students.
MARRIAGE LICENSE INFORMATION: The legal age to marry in Alabama is 18. However, if you are 16 to 17, you may obtain a license if both parents are present

Marriage law by States in the USA. Parents have a lot of control in MS and others states about pregnancy in an era of abortion. Only in America, how about over there?

http://law.jrank.org/pages/11840/Marriage-Age-Requirements.html

Hows them apples!!!! He who laughs last laughs..... I was LMAO at those numbers but what do you make of this data when those numbers were challenged on the teacher chatboard today? I haven't successfully entered the data base yet to confirm. I'm sure someone can and these figures by comparison are probably true and are as at least as official as Dr Dominum's Running Lists. Please walk me through it when you get into Alvin High School. I'm having no luck.

On 6/28/09, All_math_all_the_time wrote:
There is no way this is true. The possibility that 968 paddlings
could occur in one school in one year is impossible. The vice
principal would be sued for abuse, especially in this day and age.

On 6/28/09 Actually, the numbers in question are in line with a good number of
high schools in Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas and elsewhere.

You can find the stats on the US Dept of Education website at the
link below. Search Alvin HS in Texas for example, total paddlings
for 2006:

girls: 355

boys: 680

total: 1035

about 1/3 of girls and 2/3 of boys received a paddling

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/ocr2006rv30/wdsdata.html

High schools that use corporal punishment almost always do so at
the students' option and the parents can fill out a form denying
their child that option. Girls are paddled by designated female
staff in many cases. Students typically get 3 to 5 licks. In the
bible belt, support for paddling is very high and it is not
controversial in many places under this system or similar rules.

Hi American Way. Thank you for bringing the 'challenge' to our notice. First, let me say that I would be considerably more impressed if some of these people purporting to be teachers could do simple arithmetic. Poor grammar and spelling we take for granted nowadays, even in the scholastic profession, but the inability to add together eight 2 and 3 digit numbers and get the correct answer is inexcusable. The total number of paddlings reported by 'Emily L' is 1068 not 968 as stated by 'All_math_all_the_time'. I hope the name chosen by the latter doesn't reflect the subject taught!

I find no problem in conceiving of 1068 children paddled in a school of 1800, given the reputation of some Southern states - this school is supposed to be in Mississippi I believe. What concerned me, and still concerns me if the figures are indeed accurate, is the huge imbalance (by any normal standards at least) in the number of girls paddled, especially in the 11th and 12th grades.

'JB4', who says that the 'Emily L' overall figures are in line with the norm for the Southern States, quotes figures for Alvin HS in Texas which show roughly two boys paddled for each girl paddled. High, given that girls are usually much better behaved than boys, but believable. However, the figures for the school quoted by 'Emily L' show very nearly equal numbers of boys and girls paddled overall, with 32% more girls than boys being paddled in the 11th and 12th grades! Surely something wrong somewhere!

Hi American Way. First an apology. After you had kindly reverted to the title I used for my original query on the paddling stats I failed to follow suite in my post above. I've mended my ways this time!

I've just been into the US Dept. of Education Civil Rights Data Collection, the link claimed by 'JB4' to contain High School paddling statistics. There is a huge amount of stuff on that site, much of which is fairly old. Try as I might though I cannot find anything about paddling at Alvin High School Texas, or any other High School for that matter. If the stuff is there somewhere 'JB4' could, as far as I can see from the nature of the site, have linked directly to it. Sadly he or she has not done so. In the case of a vast site like that a top level link is worse than useless.

Unless you happen to come across an explanation somewhere else I suspect we shall never know the story behind the apparently extremely badly behaved girls at the 'Emily L' High School. Maybe the 11th and 12th grade years each contained one or two girls who were paddled many, many times. One assumes that the student handbook would provide some other intervention rather than repeated paddlings, but who knows?

Those figures seem very suspect. Also I think the new regulations in most US schools now stipulate that only a female teacher can administer corporal punishment to a girl, and even then there must be a female witness present as well.

Also I believe that the girls can choose another punishment rather than corporal punishment such as detention. I think most of the corporal punishment administered to girls is done by the gym mistress or some similar person.

Apparently it is not considered a big deal in the US since you hardly ever see it depicted in any movies (if at all), considering the large number of movies with high school themes.

They have been depicted in movies, but few movies center on the region known as the Bible Belt. Documentaries and Corpun, the definitive site, mention schools that explicitly state in their handbooks: "you choose the behavior we choose the consequence", so much for options. The protection against allegations usually means a at least a female witness but it is by no means explicitly stated in the handbooks and I have no diubt that infrequently it is administered without one present. We don't know the gender of the witness behind the Principal Office closed door. If you keep in mind how many school districts don't allow it in Texas and how few some schools employ it the fact that 2% of the Texas 50,000 paddlings a year could in fact occur there. That being said, someone might write to the teachers chatboard and ask how to derive that number from a very complicated web site. I'm not a teacher. Alvin Texas is the home of Nolan Ryan, baseball strikeout record pitcher. A Junior High is named after him.

Another reason why I believe the figures are correct is that numbers are recorded by counties with only a few high schools and maybe just one school that paddles in that district. I have previously linked County details from Kentucky and Florida who are required to report to DOE website. I'm pretty good at links but I've given up tracking down that number. Although the key is finding it by county, I think the research is worthwhile just to dispel the doubts from the skeptics.

Alvin is a city in a county that had the biggest walkout over a dress code in 1991 that led to massive arrests. The county rules, just read about the specificity of hairdo rules. Given a strict principal, who probably had a lot of input into that handbook, it is a reasonable surmise that the numbers are not cooked. A quarter of a million paddlings (give or take because of Christian schools, although often required to report), in a country of 300 million citizens are not many and that's why there is so much surprise, like yours and some writer on the chatboard, from those who live out of those regions within the 21 states that use it.

I did get into Alvin High School on that complicated website but it didn't prove helpful. Do you think he could be yanking our chain. I wish someone would ask him to verify it by telling us how to access that data. I did track down the county and their CP policy. And I have some obeservations about the boy/girl ration that started this query.

As youngsters progress in age their behavior often worsens and if one female teacher goes on the war path the numbers could gradually grow disproportionately. So I wouldn't read too much into it. As they seem in the boy/girl ratio. Remember the boy/girl ration is an average. I think this emotional involvement bit in Alvin TX (Brazoria County) with respect for the student may be a telling denial. Some girls are ticking off a female teacher who they only started to deal with as upper classmen or they hired a new one who was termagant. Thats my guess for the slow chronological increase.

Teachers aren't robots, although one of them may be a fetishist who owns one. How can you not be emotional,as Dr Dominum can attests. Maybe hardly any boy or girl chooses detention because teachers can make that unpleasant especially if they don't want to come in on Saturday either. I copy/paste the parts that are not common to other SP policies

Corporal Punishment Board Policy (FO) (Local)

Corporal punishment shall be reasonable and moderate and may not be administered maliciously or for the purpose of revenge. Such factors as the size, age, and physical, mental, and emotional condition of the student; the type of instrument to be used; the amount of force to be used; and the part of the body to be struck shall be considered before administering any corporal punishment.

The principal is responsible for determining that the adult, who is administering the corporal punishment, whether it is himself/herself or another adult, is doing so in a respectful manner and without any emotional involvement.

Colin Farrell has access to data and I'm not sure if it is from the Teacher Board recommended site. By looking at Kentucky and Florida it's clear that the data collection is based on questions asked by Civil Rights Officials, hence their obssession by the sample found on page 11 of theis 22 page document. Bell County in KY has the largest paddled in percentage in the state and has only one high school. Once you find out the size of the school you get the raw numbers. All these forms, they must live by the slogan: NEVER KILL A JOB!!! I think if someone keeps playing with the site JB4 numbers will come up. I give up.

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/ocr2006rv30/2006_ED102_Accessible.pdf

I'm logged in and my email address comes up automatically. Do I have to erase it every time I post. If I forget to erase it does my email address become public domain for every reader here. It's 3:18 PM here so I'll see how long it takes to post. And what's this insert object all about?

However difficult it is to confirm JB4 data I have little doubt that he is not cooking the books. Information culled from the forms is incontrovertible and often listed in a general form on the state level as in Georgia below. The county and city breakdown would be the way to single out Alvin Texas as in Walker County Alabama. The ratio gender of 2 to 1 for African Americans as opposed to 10 to 1 with Whites is worth noting. Some say Blacks because of cultural reasons are more prone to choose CP over suspensions. Due to the Freedom of Information Act all such data is available by law. The teacher net chat on this issue ensues. The frustration experienced by the California teachers is real as are the teachers. They are as real as TWP.

http://www.walkercountyschools.com/Public%20Information/Discipline%20System.doc

http://www.walkercountyschools.com/Public%20Information/Discipline%20Per%20School.doc

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/_documents/doe/external/policy_report_discipline.pdf

Thank you for registering, American Way. From now on the American Way to contribute to this Happy Circle is as follows:

Log in and send your post which will appear within seconds on the board. Your email address should not come up automatically. If it does, erase it, otherwise you will have a load of nutters writing to you. Forget about 'insert object'. That is not the American Way.

You may wish to send a test message, but in any event

Keep postin'!

I've mentioned this before, but for the benefit of American Way and Alan Turing who have just registered, there is indeed only one downside to the Log-In process. The first time you post after Logging In your email address will not appear in the 'Your Email (Optional)' field on the posting form unless you enter it yourself.

However, if you make a second post under the same Log-In your email address will sneakily insert itself in said field without any action on your part. If you omit to delete it it will indeed, as you say American Way, be displayed to all and sundry, or at least those all and sundry who have worked out that by mousing over or clicking on a poster's name which is in red and underlined the associated email address can be seen.

Network54 does employ an algorithm to protect email addresses from Spam Bots. The algorithm is pretty basic, but is sufficient to prevent addresses being harvested.

I seldom disagree with Big John English Way, but the few times I have let my email address appear here deliberately I didn't get any email at all, either from nutters or from the one person I was hoping would contact me. Lotta, how could you have been so cruel!

Another Lurker,

To you and the other recent posters thanks for explaining the system here. I kept wondering why my name came up in a strange red or, I am told more correctly(?) aubergine !

Luckily the only emails I have had have been helpful, polite, and from forum members of good intent!

Unfortunately, to me the computer is a tool of the trade, and I have for too long subsisted on the luxury of calling 'someone' to come and sort it out when it frustrated me! I do know where the on/off switch is, and I try to remember to feed the mouse once in a while....and other routine tasks such as taking out the garbage....., but I'm afraid I must admit that when things like 'no cookies' appear on the screen, instead of repairing straight away to the bakers for replenishment, I normally resort to Anglo Saxon........

Finally may I pay tributr to those brave troopers on the front line of my broadband provider's tachnical support, who stay cheery even when being verbally decapitated by those such as myself who find the concept of 'outage' an 'outrage' ; especially when the network goes down at one in the morning , just those hours when the muse begins, to flow.......along with a small glass of Jack........

Not to worry. I think a wee sip of the Johnny walker will keep you going.

When the trolls take over a site the monitors intervene. They keep it real.

http://teachers.net/states/ms/topic714/7.08.09.08.35.02.html

Dr Dominum I know you are not comfortable with unbending disciplinary matrices but are the offenses similar and are the penalties reasonably proportional? The correlation between offenses and penalties seem like they have not been invented and reflect the values of the South. I recognize that Teacher Chat boards can be an invitation to trolls (their monitors remove the threads if they head into that direction) but I also know that disciplinary charts vary from school to school and are not always published in handbooks. Codes of conduct are written on an ad hoc basis that can change from day to day. The advice sought from fellow teachers is the whole idea behind the forum. It is worth noting that school handbooks publish 2 or 3 licks on the most part by Corpun, however first hand secondary school accounts are replete with references to 5 licks. That is what the parents would have received and anything less than that might be considered the wimpiest especially when lesser amounts may by experience have proven to be ineffective. The folks in AK don't take kindly to skipping, cheating and profanity toward them. Their code of conduct is more comprehensive than just tardies and makes more sense. I noticed that Colin Farrel recently weighed in on some matters pertaining to this forum. He seems to have access to numbers that must be available to all because of the Freedom of Information Act. I was hoping to hear from him on how to decipher data from the complicated US Department of Education site mentioned in the now deleted MS thread previously discussed concerning Alvin High School in TX discussed under the Query for American Way.

Re: Corporal Punishment policy

Posted by: discipline chart on 7/17/09

first unexcused tardy = warning

second unexcused tardy = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

third unexcused tardy = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

fourth unexcused tardy = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

first cell phone violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

second cell phone violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

tobacco violation = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

profanity = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

profanity towards teacher or staff = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

parking lot violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

bus violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

dress code violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

skipping = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

academic dishonesty = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

class disruption = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

gum, candy, food in class = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

failure to dress out for PE = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

public display of affection = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

internet use violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

damage/destruction of property = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

theft = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

false statements/note to teacher or staff = 3 licks or 5
hours detention

Heres a thought. Tobacco has always merited the severest sanction but when I substituted 15 years ago there were two faculty lounges, i.e., one for smokers and another for nonsmokers. The Southern states, the home of tobacco, paddle their students for using their product and some of the five swat accounts have to be for real. You figure. We push nicotine as a drug that we use disproportionately less overseas while we destroy other countries poppy crops that we consume disproportionately more and we finance our government from behavior taxes with some of the funds used to subsidize smoking cessation programs. We have the largest percentage of any population incarcerated for small time drug users and pushers and criminal behavior more likely to occur under the influence. You figure?

FYI here is the current AK and MS Teacher Chat Board entries with ongoing threads. BTW sniff dogs are a phenomenon Im pretty sure unique to the States. The Supreme Court recently ruled against strip searches in school.

http://teachers.net/states/ar/topic662/7.13.09.09.23.35.html

http://teachers.net/states/ms/topic714/7.04.09.14.26.16.html

http://www.interquestk9.com/endorse.html

Hi American Way. First of all may I proffer my apologies to you for my rather ungracious response in our last exchange. I cannot recall now what had annoyed me but I should not have allowed it to overflow into my dealings here.

I am not qualified to comment on how the disciplinary/penalty code you list above would compare to current corporal punishment regimes elsewhere. It does however seem to me to be rather severe by comparison with UK schools when CP was available here. Indeed, just considering the non-CP alternatives, I would say it still comes out as very severe by by comparison with schools here. I guess it all hinges on just how rigidly it is enforced since it must inevitably rest on the discretion of the teaching staff to decide when to pursue an offence.

I am struck by the fact that aside from '2' all penalties, both swats and detentions/iss seem to involve odd numbers. The number 4 is very conspicuous by its absence, and indeed this seems to be a common feature of many disciplinary codes. Do you think this is just happenstance, or could there be a reason for it? It would certainly seem more logical to me to escalate 2, 3, 4, 5, rather than 2, 3, 5 unless Fibonacci numbers have some significance in the punitive regime!

Dr Dominum I know you are not comfortable with unbending disciplinary matrices but are the offenses similar and are the penalties reasonably proportional?

I'll do my best to answer, but it's not exactly simple to do. There's a cultural difference in operation here, I think, that makes talking about whether penalties are proportional difficult.

It's my impression that the type of matrix, you're supplying here comes from a school environment where it is considered reasonably normal for a choice of punishments of different types to be available, accompanied by an assumption that these different punishment types can be seen as fairly equivalent. That's not an assumption that really operates in my school, or indeed in virtually any school I can think of in Australia where I know corporal punishment is used or was used.

Here, there's more likey a view that there is a heirarchy of punishments with some clearly more severe than others and without a great deal of overlap between them.

Detention is less severe than the cane and the cane is less severe than suspension with internal suspension being less severe than external suspension.

We don't generally consider these punishments to be particularly similar in severity and so the idea of trying to find equivalencies between them is one I find awkward.

Realistically, the worst detention we hand out (3 hours on Saturday morning) is probably not even equivalent in severity to one stroke of the cane. Six of the best is probably not even equivalent to a three day internal suspension in our judgement. The comparisons you've presented here suggests that the school you are looking at sees it differently.

The correlation between offenses and penalties seem like they have not been invented and reflect the values of the South. I recognize that Teacher Chat boards can be an invitation to trolls (their monitors remove the threads if they head into that direction) but I also know that disciplinary charts vary from school to school and are not always published in handbooks. Codes of conduct are written on an ad hoc basis that can change from day to day. The advice sought from fellow teachers is the whole idea behind the forum. It is worth noting that school handbooks publish 2 or 3 licks on the most part by Corpun, however first hand secondary school accounts are replete with references to 5 licks. That is what the parents would have received and anything less than that might be considered the wimpiest especially when lesser amounts may by experience have proven to be ineffective.


Again, this makes comparison difficult. I honestly don't have much idea how severe the cane is compared to the paddle. The maximum caning we hand out today is six strokes (generally referred to as six of the best). Six of the best is a severe punishment. But we also do hand out 1 stroke on occasion - and even one stroke isn't seen as 'wimpish'. Any caning is generally seen as a big deal and something to be avoided. In my early days of teaching, and when I was a boy, one stroke probably was seen in that way - but even then two wasn't uncommon. Any caning is significant.

But I'll do my best to try and weigh in to some extent on this, where I can.

first unexcused tardy = warning

second unexcused tardy = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

third unexcused tardy = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

fourth unexcused tardy = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

Straight away, we're hitting a cultural difference. We don't generally punish students for being late. In fact, when I look at what I read and hear of American schools, it sometimes seems as if American schools border on having an absolute obsession about 'tardiness' that I find difficult to understand.

We do expect our boys to be punctual - and I believed a boy was being late to school deliberately or through extreme carelessness, then I'd be prepare to punish him. But generally speaking our boys are punctual, and if they are late for some reason, it's because of a reason outside of their control.

I wonder if part of the reason why we see this differently comes down to the way students get to school. Most of our day boys either live close enough to the school that they walk or bike, or they use the public transport system. Especially the latter boys get used to the idea that they have to aim to get to school a little early just in case there's a problem with a missed or cancelled train, so if they are late, it's normally because there's been an unusual breakdown which we can hardly hold them responsible for.

first cell phone violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

second cell phone violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

We've only recently made misuse of a mobile phone a specific offence, because we've only fairly recently started noting misuse as a significant problem. Since we have, the typical penalty has been about two strokes of the cane. Over the long term, I suspect this will move into an offence where the cane is not commonly used - but at the moment, because we had identified a problem and we've specifically targeted it, we're being more severe than I think we'll eventually wind up being.

tobacco violation = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

Smoking is a fairly common offence, and it's one for which we nearly always cane. And the number of strokes is different for boys of different ages.

From 2006-2008, the average form of boys being caned was 3.6, the average number of strokes was 3.9.

Form I boys got an average of 2.6 strokes
Form II boys got an average of 2.8 strokes
Form III boys got an average of 3.8 strokes
Form IV boys got an average of 4.2 strokes
Form V boys got an average of 4.5 strokes
Form VI boys got an average of 5.2 strokes

profanity = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

profanity towards teacher or staff = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

We ignore a lot of swearing. Whether we like it or not, a certain amount of swearing is part of the normal Australian vernacular and it's pointless denying that or being too coy about it. Boys need to learn there is a time or place for it, and that means we tolerate most of it when its used among themselves - there's a couple of words we don't accept (the 'c-word' especially, the 'f-word' is not quite as unacceptable) but even with those, a boy is likely to get a reprimand more than anything else unless he does it very publically or repeatedly without good reason.

Directed against staff is another matter, but even there, we do make allowances for the fact that sometimes a boy is genuinely angry. If he's swearing at staff, there's often something provoking that behaviour. That can be severely punished, but it isn't necessarily so.

And even when we do punish for swearing, detention is more common than the cane. (I have to say 'Five Hours Detention' also comes across as odd to us - we have three types of formal detention. 30 minutes before school each day, 60 minutes after school on Friday, three hours on Saturday - and normally a boy gets one of these once (occasionally I'll give out multiple Saturdays for a boy who is facing a caning, but shouldn't be caned, in an effort to try and create some equivalency, but that's not common).

Where the cane has been used for swearing in recent years, the average across the schools is just under 3 strokes - swearing that reaches the level that it is being punished with the cane is treated quite seriously.

parking lot violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

The age you can acquire a provisional driving licence in Victoria is 18 (you can get a Learners Permit at 16), and most of our boys finish their final year of school before or very shorly after their 18th birthday. Very few have a licence and even if a boy is 18 and is licenced, it's very unusual for us to permit him to drive to school (partly because car parking is very limited) so this type of issue does not arise.

bus violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

We don't have school buses (at least not ones boys use to get to and from school - the school does own a couple we use for trips etc). They are not as common here as they seem to be in the US, although some schools do use them and others contract with local bus companies. So again, no real comparison here.

dress code violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

We have a uniform not a dress code, but interestingly, school uniform violations are the one thing we categorically cannot use corporal punishment for. It's due to a court decision a few years ago where a court ruled the use of corporal punishment for a school uniform violation was not justified. As I've mentioned in the past, about the only time we get legal guidance on this is when a court makes a ruling, and this is one of the few issues a recent ruling exists on.

skipping = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

Truancy is our closest equivalent. It's quite rare (or at least it was until last week - I had to deal with two multiple cases), but when it does occur, it more often than not results in the cane. Average in recent years was 4.2 strokes.

academic dishonesty = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

Cheating - the cane is common for this (it's the most common punishment handed out for it) and punishment is severe - 5.1 strokes is the average in recent years.

class disruption = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

Corporal punishment is rare for this (less than 5% of cases where a punishment is used result in the cane). Where it has been used, the average has been 2.5 strokes.

gum, candy, food in class = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

Can't really give a comparison for that - it's not allowed by most teachers and is subject to punishment, but it's not an offence category, so I can't get specific data.

failure to dress out for PE = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

It's a uniform violation - see above.

public display of affection = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

We're an all boys school and something like this is quite rare, but most schools here probably don't regard it as something to be punished with more than a reprimand to get back to business.

internet use violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

Typical penalty here is loss of net access for a period of time.

damage/destruction of property = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

Vandalism - probably results in the cane about half the time. When it does, just over 3 strokes has been average, but it's very variable depending on what was vandalised.

theft = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

The cane is common and normally the punishment is severe. Six of the best is highly likely, the average works out to about five.

false statements/note to teacher or staff = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

This could either be lying or bearing false witness.

COmmonly results in the cane, when it does, 4.4 strokes has been the recent average.

Trivial matters merit two swats and more serious matters three swats. Five swats send the message that we have paddled you as severely allowed by law. All the offenses involving five swats involve single offenses with the exception of involving tardiness.

Students have wheels when they are sixteen and you can be as far as 20 miles from schools in some districts and getting to school on time is their responsibility and punctuality is not always everyones strong suit. It should be remembered from Nancys paddling that the Principal asked for which period were you tardy? Some students hang around in the corridor after the bell rings so it is not always a matter of getting to school late. I think the faculty would be scrupulous in enforcing and uniformly strict judging by the linked disciplinary matrix. I dont know if she would have come out of the office the same after two more swats or even how much time she was given to compose herself before shown leaving the office. I dont think it tickled and it was not meant to. I am almost 100% sure there would not be a fifth tardy. That school does not paddle and perhaps is the best argument for corporal punishment given the time and energy the school puts into disciplining their students.

http://www.lpssonline.com/uploads/LPSSDisciplineMatrixExplantion.pdf

From a somewhat OTT dramatic POV here is a fictional account previously published it and IMHO would be a reasonable facsimile of what a five swats paddling in terms of pain can be excruciating, perhaps equivalents to or more so than six of the best.

I was whacked with enough force knock me forward a little and up onto my toes. Struggling to seem in control, I steeled myself and concentrated on not breaking down. The Assistant Principal repeated the routine, again lining up the paddle on my now sizzling backside for a few seconds, and cracked my butt a third time. On top of the accumulated pain of two slaps within 30 seconds, the sting was far sharper than I'd anticipated and salty tears welled up in my eyes. Like Amanda, my self control couldn't survive the 4th spank. "THWACCCCKK !!!!" I screamed. Jumping up from the desk and placing both hands on my bottom, hot tears rolling down my cheeks, I blubbered to Jessica Dodd "I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE OF THIS !!!!!!........"

Ms. Kelly walked over and asked very quietly if I was all right. I was afraid to answer, knowing my voice would crack if I did. Ms. Dodd said I was required to take all five licks "or it doesn't count," but "it's okay if you need a minute to recover." Andrea Kelly handed me a Kleenex. Stepping away from them, I stood by the office window, eyes bleary with tears and gradually regaining some control. More than anything else I needed to avoid breaking down completely. The assistant principal and the witness stood in front of the desk while I passed a couple of minutes leaning against the window, bottom afire and burning with deeper shame and humiliation than I'd ever felt in my life.

Keep it realistic DD. Itv sounds like a fantasy concetration camp.
And this definitley will not be posted.

prof. n, the stroke vs the swat comparison was very interesting. The numbness caused by the paddling is often attested to do but judging by thr bruising and blistering by a flat instrument I do think that schools here take this form of punishment as more serious thean caning. This may explain the difference in consequences that Dr Dominum mentioned above.

Professional models often talk of the numbness factor with the paddle but dread the long term pain over the paddle. Numbness may enter into the picture for multiple swats more than the cane. Marks (presumably pain) may matter being a longer term reminder is the upside but deep tissue bruising may be the downside but that may involve more than 5 licks but sometimes you have to break a few eggs tio make an omelette. No?

If it made a few laugh over dyslexia then it was worth it.

Hi American Way,

A series of very interesting posts from yourself Dr. D and Another lurker! Her are just a few comments...sorry if I don't cross reference them all for simplicity , but hopefully they will read coherently. .

To start with Another lurkers point , and your general points in the last post. It seems to me , and as I've said before I may belong to that very exclusive ( even privileged ?!? well....) who had the honour during their adolescence to compare the cane and the paddle.( PS to those who are just so jealous and green with envy , don't be- it hasn't that much to recommend it , believe me!!), that the issue is very complex, particularly in respect of the paddle. The outcome depends on many factors, most important amongst which are ,I would suggest , (in no particular order)

Was the paddling done within what I would call 'safe' guidelines ( ie the TWP protocol in particular 90 degree maximum swing and 'free hand in the small of the back ' again for safety).

What was the size and construction of the paddle. The one I received was perfectly reasonable in size shape and weight but with the question mark perhaps ( according to TWP) on the 'holes' (Spenser type but bevelled)

What is the type and protective effect of clothing ( far more important than in the UK because of the difference say, between a girl wearing a pair of thin man made fibre slacks , and a guy wearing Levi's . at least two cases to my knowledge resulted in allegedly unfair punishment on this ground alone.

You may be surprised I have left out the abolitionists favourite the build and size of the staff member who does the paddling. This is because I am persuaded by the TWP position that this is irrelevant IF and only IF the safeguards are followed. If they are not then this becomes sometimes the crucial factor, as the issue changes from the administration of limited reasonable corporal punishment, administered within a supportive environment where the care of the student takes priority , which leaves acceptable marking and discomfort for a limited period ; to one of uncontrolled beating which can occasion serious bodily harm leading to the abuse patterns seen in some court material .

OK so far so good. Now it gets difficult. As I mentioned on a previous post my friend and ex deputy head believes , in contradiction somewhat to American Way that the paddle was less painful and damaging than the cane equating in her mind one stroke of the cane with more than one , nearer two stokes of the paddle. BUT this assumes that the TWP type protocol is followed to the letter. If it is not then we may be left with a very severe beating indeed. On the TWP type basis she was prepared to give many more strokes than would be allowed today, but at that time (70's) were perfectly legal and within the specified maxima for most Red states .Moreover there is no doubt that an uncontrolled beating for five swats, -half the number she administered would be far worse , and cause much more damage than her diet.

This is the rub, the paddle like any other method of punishment can be used wrongly and abusively. Anyone in her school breaking the guidelines lost the right to paddle on the spot , and no appeal!As I mentioned elsewhere in this regard the coaches were the most problematic group being unwilling to adopt the prescribed methodolgy.

This brings me back tom the physics of the situation. I believe there are good scientific grounds ( although as a scientist who left the subjects after A level, I stand to be corrected by those with a much more detailed knowledge) to support my personal observation that the pain from the two different instruments is qualitatively different .The cane is flexible, with a limited surface area and consequently concentrates its kinetic energy over a small surface area...hence the deep 'bite' and 'sting' ; whereas the paddle is blunt , dissipating its energy over a large surface area, all be it somewhat modified by the structure of 'holes'.. I think the mathematical modelling would also support the thesis that the cane probably builds up more momentum when utilised properly certainly in comparison with the TWP 90 degree rule. However I'm sure one of you mathematicians / physicists will tell me if I'm way off beam here.

To turn to other matters. The codes do look quite strict when compared to what was imposed in Britain( and bear in mind these codes would have been 'harsher' if we revisit when the comparison could have been made in Britain. How harsh depends on the line taken on paddlings.

The issue of lates or tardys is fascinating. In my experience with the exception of morning registration , and perhaps, a similar activity in the afternoon it would be unusual to find a offence of late in typical British school rules. The American quasi judicial requires a clear specification of each offence with a tariff , in the UK we don't , but we do use catch all offences like 'general attitude' which would find little if any favour if reviewed by the US courts!

General attitude was very useful .My first caning followed what on paper were a series of trifling, if out of character offences, In the States I would simply have been charged with a number of trifling offences here it could be construed, together with my demeanour, as demonstrating a pattern of behaviour which was, I was told, attempting to undermine the principles of the school (these dammed psychologists !) thus , the justification for general attitude and 4 strokes ( and I was told lucky for you , you have an unblemished record , without it , it could well have been 6! ). Flexibility is a keynote of Britain , and the anathema to the US system is seems!.

Most British schools will not provide the drive in facilities as seen, for example, on dazed and confused. There will be no motoring offences , as cars are parked off campus, so the issue is between you and the parking attendants !!

Finally there is a difference as the extract (all be it fiction) demonstrates where the US line up firmly with Dr. D in allowing or even encouraging students to express emotion during punishment. In my mind this was one of the most caustic elements of the British way, that you were expected to keep a stiff upper lip ( at least in public) or else be subject to 'extra' , and this made the lives of those who were wimps ( and in any case were, probably unknown to them , protected from caning by the no cane list) a complete misery. Nevertheless I know how many of my friends lived with an unjustified fear, ramped up( of course) by the mindless( and untruthful) regulars!

Bottom line....I would have taken six of the paddle as opposed to six of the best any day...provided it was administered in line with the TWP or good practice codes...otherwise you are sailing uncharted waters, and that is a recipe for disaster!

Avoiding injuries are a concern with the paddle. Wood on the tail bone can cause breakage (wood wins over bone) so students are often asked to place their elbows on the desk and look straight forward or hands against a wall to keep from reaching back and injuring their hands. The artful use of the cane can likewise avoid wrapping it around areas better not to be hit. Kids here aren't asked to buck up and are with a few troubling exceptions paddled away from their peers but they do shape up judging by the behavior differential in schools that allow it to the schools who aren't allow it is remarkably but not surprisingly in favor of those who permit it. At least that's what neighboring counties would differing policies indicate. On a number of times I've posted KY and FL detailed statistics to bolster that point. It is a reasonable surmise that a TWP elementary school paddling is gentler than a high school. Some say that the Nancy paddling (ouch) was atypically gentle in comparison to their experience and I don't have reason to doubt them. I preferred theoretical physics over applied but here is a link that may prove helpful. I haven't been on the receiving end but it makes sense that the sensation of a cane is painfully sharp but the paddle enduringly painfully in a different way. Long term sitting unless the cane hit on the right spot would mean that the paddled students would be sitting gingerly for a few hours or a few days depending on circumstances.

With schools out and the economy going nowhere the girls at TWP have some useful advice for teachers searching for jobs. If you're interested in the world of the American Way their recent entry may be worth a look.

http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/PhyNet/Mechanics/Energy/Work.html

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2009/07/page/2/

Hi American Way,

Your comments make a lot of sense.

You did raise one thought in my mind to which I don't have a answer, which revolves around this 'good practice' issue. There seem to be two sides to this. I commented in an earlier post and again today on the similarity between the 'safety' steps taken when I was paddled and the TWP guidelines.

Putting on one side the difference between elementary and high schools ( because I would believe the issue of how hard can still be varied substantially within the safe practice guidelines, as of course is how many ? Power doesn't just equal swing, and for I assume the reason of bone safety the licks were applied fairly low ,rather like the cane , which also made it a bit more uncomfortable!), There is, however, a very interesting issue of dissemination of these practices.

Now one assumes that a prudent principal would want to both build good relations with his/her community and avoid as much litigation as possible, so if there are good practice standards which may help in both these causes, it would seem perverse to ignore them . Therefore two things stand out to me .

One is that although over 30 years has passed since my licks the procedures for good practice remain very similar, which would suggest that good practice has stood the test of time..

The second is that despite this it is interesting that such practice has not become universalised, given its potential to enhance community acceptance and defuse potential costly and embarrassing legal battles. This seems al, the more so given the relatively frequent use of the paddle for lower order offences where it has been retained /reintroduced.

On the similarity issue I wonder if this is another 'Turkeyfoot'? In other words that there is a common source document , perhaps in a teacher training department of a University or even medical research or similar which first drew attention to this guidance?

Finally on the 'Nancy' paddling, I would agree with your sources, IMHO, and accepting we only hear behind the closed door , plus if I'm comparing with my case, 3 and 10 swats are a mightily different matter, and memory fades. Nevertheless I would agree the Nancy one seems somewhat 'toned down' from normal although not, I must say, entirely out of the ballpark ( on TV it really couldn't be!). What lends credence to that it might be a bit 'softer' than normal is her reaction, but I don't think I need say more! In the longer film that shows the guy (I forget his name) the thing seems to me a bit more on the mark. Perhaps in my cynical mind that just shows a determination not to have a beauty queen even a little distressed on film!!

I still have this problem with that discipline code however, as to the logic for commuting half the sentence ( one half day in detention + three swats) rather than getting the whole thing done with one way or the other. The school and students may want the best, but end up with the worst of all worlds!!! But then I'm just a poor Brit so can't be expected to understand the intricacies of these things!

Did not the character Mary McGregor appear in Murial Sparks novel,"The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie."

"Saturday School" differs from ISS where teachers assign projects related to their class during the schoolday. "Saturday School" is pretty cruel when you think about. It amounts to prison. You sit in a chair without anything on your desk and stare at a wall from 8:00 to 3:00 with bathroom and a lunch break. That's pur torture for a teenager on a free day. Nancy must have served half a day on some other offense and wanted no part of an all day of "Saturday School" just by the way she said it when she learned that was going to be the consequence of four unexcused tardies. She either didn't read the handbook or thought they couldn't be applied to her

Its hard to explain the punishment hierarchy. Paddling was getting a discount not a reprieve. Nancy had the courage to submit and take an active role in her destiny. She unwittingly became an unlikely heroine, c.f. thread "Courage to Submit". Sitting on a sore bottom for even half a day kept her from reoffending. prof.n I don't blame you for not remembering the eminently forgettable Shorty, the pride of Booneville, who exhibited an unseemly cowardice but his whacks sounded harder. She may have sensed she wouldn't be hit as hard within earshot of the television crew who probably applauded her off camera. She certainly was ready for her close-up. You wouldn't want her mascara running down her cheeks. The beauty queen thing definitely played a part in it. The television crew must have been in ecstasy when all the consent forms had been signed. Her parents must have been crazy to do so. I wouldn't want my girl to inherit such infamy at 16. Kids are going through stages and that's why court records are sealed. TWP, although acknowledging it was purely hypothetical, said that if they were to bring the cameras into the room that would put to rest accusations of brutality. I wholeheartedly disagree because there are abuses albeit fewer than the anti CP zealots claim.

The Booneville principal, Steve Halter, referred to the females in his family as always keeping him waiting and I assume he treated her as lightly as his daughter. Anthony Price of Everman Junior hit the boy harder than the female teacher did the girl in the sample paddling. Shorty wanted no part of his principal as did the boy from Everman. In the Everman video it was mostly the girls and not the boys who chose the "pops" over the boring detention. The boys seemingly weren't up against wimps but the girls may have been dealing with pussy willows. IMHO the female VP and that girl seemed a bit too chummy but the swat team was instructed on how to avoid injuries and that is a good thing jusdging by the warm up by the VP. A good number of the teachers were authorized to paddle which is unusual but a gauge on how frequently the paddles were used. They had enough to go around for every classroom. A demonstration was OTT and could happen only here. That's the American Way.

"I was whacked with enough force knock me forward a little and up onto my toes. Struggling to seem in control, I steeled myself and concentrated on not breaking down. The Assistant Principal repeated the routine, again lining up the paddle on my now sizzling backside for a few seconds, and cracked my butt a third time. On top of the accumulated pain of two slaps within 30 seconds, the sting was far sharper than I'd anticipated and salty tears welled up in my eyes. Like Amanda, my self control couldn't survive the 4th spank. "THWACCCCKK !!!!" I screamed. Jumping up from the desk and placing both hands on my bottom, hot tears rolling down my cheeks, I blubbered to Jessica Dodd "I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE OF THIS !!!!!!........"

Ms. Kelly walked over and asked very quietly if I was all right. I was afraid to answer, knowing my voice would crack if I did. Ms. Dodd said I was required to take all five licks "or it doesn't count," but "it's okay if you need a minute to recover." Andrea Kelly handed me a Kleenex. Stepping away from them, I stood by the office window, eyes bleary with tears and gradually regaining some control. More than anything else I needed to avoid breaking down completely. The assistant principal and the witness stood in front of the desk while I passed a couple of minutes leaning against the window, bottom afire and burning with deeper shame and humiliation than I'd ever felt in my life."



As you mention American Way the above except is from a fictional account. But it sure sounds as though it was composed by someone with intimate knowledge of the finer details of a serious paddling and also I would think from a female hand. Do you happen to know from your research if was written by a girl who had been paddled with major aspects of what took place described but with some embellishment or alteration and thus the overall account is thus deemed fiction? Also, do you happen to know if the story "Tonya gets Paddled at School" is real or ficticious?

Tonya and Megan are fictional pieces. Thats not to say they didnt happen that way sometimes but for memories to kick in a decade later when they become more aware of the sexual overtones raises an antennae. Boys are three times likely of being paddled and seventeen year olds are not as likely to be paddled even back then when paddlings were bceoming fewer and fewer. The Teacher Chat Board involves mostly females and there is a winnowing out effect that is somewhat effective and an understanding why an interest would be contemporaneous. The general poster in an open site would involve recipients of SCP of both genders and of Christian and public schools and of prepubescent age. Over detailed of the state of the bottom is a dead give away that these accounts are written primarily to titillate. IMHO if people are interested in such things they shouldnt be looking for a free thrill but pay for a porno site. Teacher sites and a few sites such as the one that follows have more a smack of reality.

SMACK OF REALITY

Thanks American Way. I have also been meaning to ask you about cp in private schools in your country; just about all of what I have come across seems only to focus on Government Schools. I imagine that data is less readily available for private schools? How many states allow private school cp, and does this include many of the "northern" states? Do the southern states that allow it have the rigid "discipline matrices" in a similar manner to the public schools, or is more discretion typical? Is there the perception that private school cp is generally harsher? What percentage of private schools that have the option to use it actually do? I apologise if these questions are rather broad, just thought I would start with the big picture!

20% of our population lives in California and uncounted and untold paddlings occur in private schools. Who knows maybe even more than Texas if they are like Hanford school linked below? They are big into character building and soul saving which IMHO has little do with corporal punishment. Parents and school have a closeness that often include them being called into do the honors. Discipline matrices are applied but they can more or less hit for any reason. As in Dr Dominum school private schools have an expulsion option and the parents can walk just as easily of they don't like it. There are fewer Christian high schools than middle or elementary schools but there is very little sparing of the rod. A well rounded education must allow students in the high school age group to find peers for common pursuits as well as interscholatic activities especially football that accounts for being fewer of them. On an anectdotal note I know an evangelical minister and his girls would face double jeapordy if so punished and judging from what I know of what my kids knew of them they were anything but angels. The old church angels and street devil thing. The self righteous nature of these school even to the point of praying with their students during the paddling doesn't settle well with me. One school hits until they see that the child repents and to me that is like saying "uncle" when losing a fight. Because of the clandestine and lack of accountability the students are probably treated with a firmer hand.

Granted biblical belief plays a role in the acceptance of corporal punishment in the Southern public schools but in certain urban districts that certainly plays even a lesser role and even a lesser role among teachers who graduated from secular colleges and university like TWP. I'll argue that Eucon International (American Possession) students belongs in the oldest student paddled judging by the uniformity of their high school and college handbooks and the school's literal approach to the letter of the law as I have done before. In loco parentis in that case involves loco in the coco and as I said before I would sneak out on the first flight. Discipline matrices are applied but with great lattitude.

http://www.eucon.edu/College%20Student%20Handbook.pdf

http://www.hanfordchristian.org/handbook.htm#toc

Thanks American way for your points and explanation.

The Eucon handbook is truly unbelievable !!

First question WHERE do you buy HIS (must have) TIE ?????? It is so uncool!!!!! Even Barry Manilow ( or Richard 'Dick' Vernon !!) wouldn't wear it !!!!

Surely the 'Important notice' at the end is unconstitutional? And being disciplined for threatening to sue the school!!!!

As to 'spankings ' well, even given the cultural and semantic differences between our nations, this is carte blanche for anything!!!And what's more even when you've paid your fees to these nut jobs, you end up not only with papers possibly graded by students, but by students who get merits for so doing. Oh and if you need help, a student , again for merit points , can do the teacher's job .It's time the US got real with Schools like this .........and stopped being deferential just because someone uses 'God' to have the up on you

Amongst its doubtless many student societies does Eucon have an escape committee???

If the abolititionists want a really cruel and unusual punishment to target why don't they try Saturday school. I assumed , wrongly, that had faded , certainly in its worst incarnation into history. My Stateside friend , who was my deputy head told me in the 70's about the delights of this institution in those days....7 till 4 in the school she had last taught in ....the psychological results of this must be far worse than those of moderate cp.

Indeed when she once punished our class for noise and disturbance , she kept us after school for only half an hour but in exactly the conditions you describe. I told her afterwards it was definitely torture by any humane international standards! . I hope, seriously, that we did at least persuade her before she became a Principal that it was better for all concerned to do some thing useful, like an essay ,or even cleaning the classroom, whatever , rather than sitting letting life go by. doing nothing but staring into space.........!

The idea of Saturday school brings to mind an old aphorism, which could be updated to this form:-


' Can time stand still.....on a Saturday ? Yes, but only for a little while .....or a considerably longer period should you be unfortunately be under 18 in an American time zone!. '

I also enjoyed these handbooks, American Way. Though I wouldn't want to send my children to these schools, it reinforces your point about what a huge variety of approaches there are in educational establishments of all kinds. Even here in the UK, until relatively recently, private schools were allowed to have eccentric disciplinary regimes not too much unlike those outlined here. So I guess the general point is that although these institutions may appear a long way from being "normal," there are just so many educational establishments, in so many different parts of the world, that to generalize about an absence of CP merely on the basis of one's own limited experience is necessarily reductive. I've always held that there's been more school spanking in different times and places than arch-sceptics like Lotta Nonsense would have us believe.

For those not inclined to navigate sites I took the liberty of copying and pasting this example of Christian school corporal punishment. The truth is often stranger than fantasy. The school paddle is like Noah's Ark. All swats are administered with a wooden paddle, which is 18"(long) X 3" (wide) X 3/4" (thickness), with a 5" handle.

A. Objective of biblical discipline

Discipline is administered to provide structure and support to enable a student to perform his work in such a manner that learning takes place.
Discipline is administered to teach the student to be submissive to God and the authorities God has placed over the student. Discipline helps the student recognize how man's natural tendency to hate God and his neighbor influences his behavior.
Discipline is administered to help the student learn the blessed state of living a God-glorifying life. Discipline is used to help the student learn that obedience results in happiness whereas "the way of the transgressor (unfaithful) is hard." (Proverbs 13:15)
Discipline is administered in such a manner that the child will be able to make the choice to avoid further corrective action.

B. Philosophy and procedures for biblical discipline

Discipline is an integral part of any educational program. Because every aspect of the program is to be seen in the light of Scripture in Christian education, the objectives and methods used in carrying out discipline also must develop from the teachings of God's Word. Discipline is discipling children to grow as followers of Jesus Christ. Biblically, corporal punishment as an aspect of discipline is not a negative matter in correcting children nor is it to be seen as a last resort. When one studies the book of Proverbs, a book especially given to help us in raising children, one finds repeated instruction to children to listen to their parents. In the schools understanding of education, Christian teachers are representatives of the parents, so that what Scripture says about a childs relationship to his parents is also true of the child's relationship to his teacher.

In Proverbs 1:8 is written: "Listen, my son, to your father's instruction and do not forsake your mother's teaching." To listen is to gain wisdom; to not listen is foolish and when "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child", using some form of the Biblical rod principle "will drive it far from him."(Proverbs 22:15) When this Biblical principle of discipline is carried out in a loving attitude as directed in Ephesians 6:4 ("Fathers do not exasperate your children; instead bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.") and Colossians 3:21 ("Fathers do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged."), it works so effectively. A wonderful promise is given in Proverbs 29:15 and 17:"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother. Discipline your son, and he will give you peace; he will bring delight to your soul."

As extensions of the home, the staff believes that parents who send their children to Hanford Christian School want Biblical discipline. It is not promoting self-esteem that is needed for our covenant children, as many expressions of humanistically based positions on discipline promote. It is promoting submission to Jesus Christ's lordship and carrying out a disciplined life of servanthood toward our fellow man that is needed. The latter will prepare our children for a meaningful role as adults in Christ's Kingdom. Some people would purport that there are legal risks in following a Biblical position on discipline, but why would a child be enrolled in a Christian school unless the parents wanted their child educated Biblically?

C. Methods used in carrying out biblical discipline

For any general misbehavior a student will be instructed to stop his/her misbehavior by the teacher. The student will be told specifically what behavior is expected of him or her for the specific situation.
For repeated misbehavior of the same nature the student will be admonished consistently by the teacher. Also included with the verbal admonitions may be disciplinary instructional activities related to the misbehavior such as staying in to finish work, "time out" on the bench during recess, removal from class until the teacher can talk to the child, etc.
If the teacher determines the verbal discipline or other disciplinary instructional activities are not effecting a positive change, the student will be told that on the next similar offense he or she will be placed on warning for a specified period of time. If there is a more general class problem, the whole class may be placed on warning.
The teacher will explain to the students that to be on warning means that on a subsequent similar offense, they will receive some form of the biblical rod principle as discipline.
For grades K-4 the first administration of corporal punishment will be a firm slap on the back of the childs hand administered by an adult of the same sex as the child, while encouraging the child that it is hoped he or she will not need to be punished this way again. All hand slaps will be witnessed by another adult. The student will receive another slap on the back of the hand if he or she repeats the offense within a specified period of time. For younger children the specified period of time will be short, ordinarily the length of time for the learning activity in process. For older students the specified time may be "the rest of the morning" or "the remainder of the day." With a few exceptions the warning will not be extended overnight to the next day.

For repeated offenses where the child is not responding positively to a slap on the back of the hand, in cooperation with the decision of the administrator, a swat on the buttocks with a paddle will be administered by an adult of the same sex as the child and will be witnessed by another adult. Records will be kept for all such incidents. All swats will be administered with a paddle, according to and after a clearly laid out plan about which the child has been instructed. The child will be told that a subsequent offense that merits a paddle will result in two swats. An additional swat will be applied for each added offense. If the above measures do not effect the desired change, the parents of the child will be involved in further planning of action to help the child grow in becoming submissive to the school's authority.

For grades 5-8, because of the vulnerability of most junior high students, the teacher will hold an individual session with the student before proceeding with the following plan. The teacher will show the student a passage like Ephesians 6:1-3, "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother-which is the first commandment with a promise- that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth", or Proverbs 22:15, "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it from him." If a child appears belligerent or otherwise non-responsive to the Biblical instruction, it will be indicated to the child that the teacher personally believes the above biblical principles are right. Because of that belief the teacher is under obligation before God to carry out the school's policy. The teacher will also specifically indicate to the student what behavior he is to stop and what positive behavior should replace the undesirable behavior using Scripture, if at all possible. After explaining the following procedure, the teacher will close the session with prayer. Documentation of the problem will be made by the teacher.
At the first occurrence after the counseling session of the specific undesirable behavior of concern, the teacher will warn the student once, reminding the student of the Scripture verses discussed. The administrator will be informed of the problem and action taken thus far.
The second occurrence after the counseling session will result in the student being sent to the office for consultation with the administrator.
The third offense after the counseling session will result in the child being sent to the office and receiving a swat on the buttocks. The swat will be administered by an adult of the same sex as the child and will be witnessed by another adult. Records will be kept for all such incidents. All swats will be administered with a paddle. This will be administered as soon as possible after the offense. An added swat will be applied for each added offense.
At this point the parent will be called by the administrator and asked to come in for a staffing to plan out further action. The home and school will develop a specific plan to help the student overcome his or her undesirable behavior. The established school staffing process will be followed.
D. Specific misbehavior in grades K-8

Fighting: All students will be informed at the beginning of the school year and periodically during the year that any fighting where physical blows are given will result in a swat on the buttocks with a paddle to both fighters administered by an adult of the same sex as the child and will be witnessed by another adult. Records will be kept for all such incidents. All swats will be administered with a paddle. If one child strikes another and the other does not retaliate physically, only the child doing the striking will receive the swat.
Before the swat is administered, the child will be counseled as to how conflicts are to be resolved.
Only fights actually observed by staff personnel will result in swats. If a fight is reported by other students, the students involved will be counseled on the proper manner to resolve conflicts and what the consequences will be.
After one swat is given the child's name will be recorded in the discipline card file. The student will be told a subsequent offense will result with two swats. An added swat will be applied for each added offense.
Tussling in the bathroom. All students will be informed at the beginning of the school year that any tussling in the bathroom, if observed by a teacher, will result in a swat on the buttocks with a paddle administered by an adult of the same sex as the child and will be witnessed by another adult. Records will be kept for all such incidents. All swats will be administered with a paddle.
Before the swat is administered, the child will be counseled about the dangers of tussling in the bathrooms. The student will also be reminded that because restrooms are difficult to supervise, the consequence of tussling is a swat.
The child will be told that a subsequent offense that merits a paddling will result in two swats. An added swat will be applied for each added offense.
Language
Any profane use of Gods holy name will result in a swat.
Before the swat is administered, the child will be counseled as to how important it is to speak in a godly way, and especially how holy Gods name is.
After a swat is given, the childs name will be recorded in the discipline card file, and the child will be told that a subsequent offense which merits paddling will result in two swats. An added swat will be applied for each offense.
No crude language will be tolerated and will be subject to discipline as determined by the principal. Jesus said men shall give an account to God in the Day of Judgment for every idle or careless word they speak.(Matthew 12:36)
Bullying is not tolerated at HCS. Discipline will follow program steps as outlined in C. 4 a or b.
Other behavior besides fighting, tussling, and profane use of Gods holy name which may result in a swat include blatant disrespect to teachers or anyone else in the school, vandalism, dangerous actions, illegal acts, lewdness, chronic disobedience, crude language, slander, malicious gossip, dishonesty, stealing, fits of rage, cruelty, blasphemy, and encouraging others to do wrong.
NOTE: Before a swat is administered, an attempt to notify the parents will be made. All swats and hand slaps will be administered by an adult of the same sex as the child and witnessed by another adult. All swats are administered with a wooden paddle, which is 18"(long) X 3" (wide) X 3/4" (thickness), with a 5" handle. Records will be kept by the administrator for all swats and hand slaps administered.

prof.n said with regard to Eucon International College:

It's time the US got real with Schools like this .........and stopped being deferential just because someone uses 'God' to have the up on you

Eucon International College is not in the US proper, but is situated on Saipan, an island in the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI), a chain of islands in the Western Pacific which have US Commonwealth status.

The CNMI appears to be exempt from certain US Federal Laws. There has been considerable criticism of the labour laws there which have enabled goods produced by sweatshop labour to be labelled 'Made in the USA'. It may be that the US Federal writ does not run in the CNMI with regard to educational standards either. Perhaps the US or International lawyers whom I am sure frequent this estimable Forum could advise?

another lurker.

Thank you for that geographical correction/addition- I never did like geography or map reading! I accept , in this context Proverbs 12 : 1 !

Perhaps this strange commonwealth status explains away as well the peculiar sartorial style of the Principal !

American Way .

Hey aren't they really are crawling out of the woodwork tonight! One of the advantages of the paddle is that it is quick for both parties, and if properly applied safe , saving teaching and learning time....not the case in your most recent example...... what between the recital of the Bible, being formally warned. and all the other rigmarole its more like a roman circus,involving a good number of staff and administrators in the school, and , if the unctious style of your copied handbook is typical , will neither be quickly forgiven or forgotten ....probably written up for ever in the big red book of life!!!

Oh! no appeal mechanism ...and if a bully picks on you dont fight back , because if you let yourself be beaten to a pulp ...don't worry provided a teacher sees it the bully will get the paddle..together with a dose of Proverbs..comforting I'm sure. Defend yourself and you get the same......Have they ever read the story of David......or the song of Deborah and Barak...and she was a Judge!

Hmm, I can perhaps partly answer my own question. EUCON International College is officially accredited by Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).

TRACS is recognized by the United States Department of Education (USDE), and the Council of Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA), as a national accrediting body for Christian institutions, colleges, universities, and seminaries. TRACS is also a member of the International Network for Quality Assurance Agencies in Higher Education (QAAHE).

What this ultimately means, according to this page on the EUCON website dating from 7 April 2009, is that for the first time a private degree granting college in The Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands is accredited by US Department of Education!

According to the associated report in 'The Marianas Variety' self-styled Micronesia's leading newspaper since 1972, Dr Christian Wei, the president of EUCON International College, said the accreditation will assure their students' parents that their children are enrolled in a college that complies with U.S. standards.

In the same newspaper report it says that the college currently offers 4 year courses leading to 'bachelor of science in education' and 'bachelor of arts in Bible'. I find the idea of students studying for BSc or BA being subjected to corporal punishment as per the college student handbook posted by American Way above somewhat bizarre, but perhaps that's the Ameri Micronesian way!

Some background information follows. I like answer.com; it's not a wikipedia for sure but is brief and informative when you're on the go. I also like dogpile search and find information easier to ask for there than other sites.

http://www.answers.com/topic/northern-mariana-islands

http://www.eucon.edu/Accreditation.htm

Sadly, Eucon International has been accredited. US Department of Education has given their school an imprimatur by recognizing their degrees. But I'm not giving it my nihil obstat. It definitely is not the American Way.

EuconInternationalCollege

Hi prof.n. Proverbs 12:1. Very impressive! The Bible has all the best quotes, and I know one or two of them. However I can't literally quote chapter and verse to match like that, or at least not without a lot more time for research than you had!

Hi American Way. Thank you for Answers.com, looks a very useful site.

I have to agree with you regarding EUCON International College. I cannot for the life of me see how an institution that requires (per the Student Handbook) that its students accept that 'Man, the universe and all things in the universe were created by the direct act of God in six literal days' can be awarding BSc degrees. I really must acquaint myself with how science and absolute creationism are reconciled by these people!

Another Lurker/American Way

Thanks for yet more disturbing information. Good God ( I suppose on the Eucon international code that alone is worth a couple of licks!), a paddling university. ! .

A little while ago a friend in a teacher education department alerted me to a discussion on the web where a 'guy' ( no names no pack drill) was claiming to have been 'caned ' at a British university in the 1990's. I didn't need to read beyond line two to realise this was a fun pester without equal and , like a twice cancelled railway ticket not even worthy of the archivist's attention. Why? He also claimed to have been caned in the 90's in a state comprehensive several years after abolition (1988). If it were true he'd be a rich man by now!!!!

Obviously in Micronesia somebody somewhere needs to do a QA visit.........at least! I'd love to read the external examiners reports!

Still, they won't have the usual British problem ...a student with no work at all and the embarrassing question in front of the externals ' Dr. X you appear to be his/her tutor, do you actually know what he/she looks like?..Is it a him or a her...not sure.......OK anybody ever actually spoken to him or her.?....Yes Registrar ,I see he/she did pick up the grant check, loan check Student Union card and a car parking permit .. so we should have........and his/her fees .oh dear,

As to the Bible , the other bunch, quoted by American Way would do well to read the book of Sirach ( or Ecclesiasticus as it's better known). That gives much clearer educational advice than in Proverbs, just a pity its in the Deuterocanonical books which doubtless our fundamentalist friends conveniently ignore.

Ps Re Eucon - I wonder if they give those ties free with the degrees!!!!?????

Never let it be said that Another_Lurker doesn't do his best for fellow contributors to this estimable Forum - especially when they appear to be fellow insomniacs to boot!

Here you are, prof.n, yours for the bargain price of $11·86, reduced from $13·95. That's a whole 15% reduction! Be sure to post a photograph of yourself wearing it!

BTW I've just noticed that the photograph of Dr Wei in the EUCON Student Handbook PDF is ultra-high res. You can blow it up to at least 1600×! Try it, the eyes are quite mesmeric, and as for the tie ......

To keep it real maybe the paddling stops in the 12th grade even though the handbook seemingly allows it. God forbid if the students were hazed the same day they were paddled. Thankfully hazing is a thing from the past because of brutality and sexual ivertones. A popular you tube entry of three years has circulated and has attracted a half a million viewers. It was not deemed adult content by you tube but some of our estimable Forum may find it on the salacious size. Among the 250 comments generated there are vulgarities. I hope I am not jeapordizing my membership as an honorary member by recommending this for the viewing but forewarned is forearmed. I'm not giving the URL. Dr Dominum please avoid.

YouTube - Sorority Babes Slimeball-o-rama Paddling

Eucon International College's flagship Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina. Eucon has an office there with an employee bringing in $36,000. Eucon probably adheres to Bob Jones University policies. The university is for real and even gave Ian Paisley an honorary degree. Here are some tips and comments about dress code and interracial dating. Enjoy.

http://www.troyandjessica.com/bob-jones-university/lingo.html

http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/so-whats-your-wife-wearing/

http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/the-colored-christians-is-segregation-scriptural/

Here is a summary of the BJU position on interracial marriages. Bush praised the school when it finally reversed its ban on interracial dating in 2000. Here is some historical background. Can you imagine any other school in the world adhering to this position or any member of this esteem Forum who agrees with it? Being a Catholic of Cape Verdean I would have two strikes against me. This should not be the American Way.

The motivation for one-world unity at the Tower of Babel was to overthrow God. God separated the races in Genesis, and these barriers still exist today in language, culture, geography, and ethnic background.
Many of those who endorse a one-world viewpoint today are also seeking this unity in order to replace God with men's reason and abilities.
Though no Scripture passage directly says inter-racial marriage is wrong, the principles of the Bible seem to point that it is not best for man.
God must have had a good reason to separate the races: therefore, any attempt to recombine them must be taken very seriously.
Therefore, BJU plays it "safe" and doesn't permit inter-racial dating.

Heather

I have just noticed that there is a Heather Mitchell listed on Friends Reunited who has commented in the " Did you get the slipper at school " thread. She has made a crude joke about Oscar Wilde which I won't repeat on here, but significantly states that she saw the joke on a Network 54 site about School Corporal punishment.

There is no information whatsoever on this Heather Mitchell, no school or anything else, which would suggest she is bogus.

Are you the same person?

Oh dear Declan, you really shouldn't have said:

She has made a crude joke about Oscar Wilde which I won't repeat on here, but significantly states that she saw the joke on a Network 54 site about School Corporal punishment.

Having read that poor Another_Lurker is then completely unable to rest until he has tracked down the item in question!

Logically it has to be this estimable Forum that Heather Mitchell referred to. Oscar Wilde would have been far too highbrow for the 'other' Network54 corporal punishment forum.

There are a several references to Oscar Wilde here, principally in the form of completely innocuous quotations by my eminent fellow contributor Steve M (now known as StevefromSE5) and references in a learned series on persons of alternate persuasion by eminent and sadly (though my apologies to the lady if I've missed any recent posts) former contributor Gillian.

However, I suspect the joke Heather Mitchell was quoting would be this one by a Forum luminary, the then Research Assistant.

Am I right?

A_L

Indeed the Oscar Wilde joke is the same one, albeit slightly altered.I was unaware that you could get on to Friends Reunited without at least naming a school, though there is nothing to stop you using a false name.

That girl Nathalie I mentioned ( the one that always contributes to threads on CP ) has now turned up on the Sven Goran Eriksson thread on that other forum I look at. Odd coincidence as we were only talking about him yesterday

Hi Declan. Thanks for the confirmation re the Oscar Wilde joke. You say:

That girl Nathalie I mentioned ( the one that always contributes to threads on CP ) has now turned up on the Sven Goran Eriksson thread on that other forum I look at. Odd coincidence as we were only talking about him yesterday.

Hmm, suspicious that! I would deduce that she is an habitué of this estimable Forum or that she lives in Nottingham. On second thoughts though, perhaps she just watches television, listens to the radio or reads a newspaper, and you did say elsewhere that football was one of her interests.

Worth following up though if you can do so without arousing suspicion. Though I suppose even if she was from Nottingham establishing that a Nottingham primary school slapped and rulered girls (and presumably boys) wouldn't help us much. I suspect that probably they all did!

You also say:

I was unaware that you could get on to Friends Reunited without at least naming a school, though there is nothing to stop you using a false name.

You remind me of a rather embarrasing error on my part. Long, long ago, when Friends Reunited was fairly new and could still be easily used by anyone unwilling to boost Bill Gates's already obscene profits by purchasing the latest Windows version, and possessed of hardware less powerful than a Cray super-computer, I visited it.

Bored with looking at my own schools I decided to try to track down a female colleague from many years before whom I had ever so slightly lusted after. I knew her birth date, maiden name and the town in which she had attended grammar school. I was enthralled to discover that the town in question only had two grammar schools, boys and girls. In I went to the exactly correct year in the girls' school and there was the lady in question!

I did whatever you had to do to contact her, only to find that FR demanded payment for this service (although I believe it is free now). Another_Lurker and money are not easily parted so I retraced my steps, only to find that my name had been added to the class list and I could find no way of removing it. Worse still, I was foolishly operating under my real name! The last time I looked a few years ago a girls' grammar school (admittedly a girls' grammar school of fairly high repute) in a small town in the northern midlands still boasted Another_Lurker as a pupil alongside my ex-colleague.

Sadly the lady in question has never tried to contact me either. If she ever went back she probably thought 'what a wally' and I have thus not dared to try to contact her again. Life can be hard sometimes, but at least it taught me to use an assumed name on FR in future! I notice that there is now a hit on all the appropriate pages to say 'don't add me to this school', but I don't think there was then, or if there was I couldn't find it.

I assume this problem accounted for the several girls who used to be in my year on FR at boys only NHS (again, I haven't checked for a long time to see if they are still there). I wonder if any of them were looking for me. If so they'd have been unlucky because I'm not registered on any of my own schools. The 'compulsory' registration seemed to be caused by a page coding error consequent on the rescinded contact attempt.

A_L

I have just been looking up Nathalie to see what her other interests are apart from corporal punishment and football.

She started a very long thread about tips on her driving test which was due yesterday. Eventually, 100 or so posts later I have found out that she failed and will have to wait until October for a re-take . She has a very young baby and driving will be essential in that role.( She went to school in London and lives just north of London now)

As for FR I have contacted a few girls I went to school with including that girl Anita of the acid on the bottom fame, and she gave a very friendly reply, and lives just half a mile from me.She also remembers the chemistry teacher who she said gave her great grief, though she didn't mention the acid incident.

Thanks for the info about that school in Derby. I was unaware of it until now.

Hi Declan. Ah, so Nathalie is from London. In that case her Primary school experiences are not surprising. I deduce from posts in this estimable Forum that many London schools were heavily into CP. Doubtless made necessary by the rebellious and aggressive nature of the youngsters hailing from that part of the realm. Only joking folks, honest!

FR contacts. I really must go back into FR sometime. I keep putting this off because for a long time now it has been close to the top of my list of contenders for the most frustrating and badly designed site on the entire WWW. However if I do venture back in I will report if I am still an ex-pupil of a quite distinguished Girls' Grammar School. Surely someone must have noticed by now! BTW when I last looked there was absolutely no evidence of CP being used at the school. A pity, the lady whose quest led me to the school, though extremely bright, would almost certainly have been a bit of a handful for her teachers. An encounter with slipper or cane at the right time in her youth might possibly have eased the difficulties of dealing with her as a colleague!

You say:

Thanks for the info about that school in Derby. I was unaware of it until now.

The thanks are of course due not to me but to our esteemed fellow contributor A_Lurkologist. There are a number of items of local interest scattered through the annals of this estimable Forum in addition to your own and those of A_Lurkologist. Modesty prohibits me from mentioning my own humble contributions, but if you did not encounter it on your initial researches here this thread called 'The great Derbyshire debate' initiated by 47David may be of interest. It is based on school CP related items published in the Derby Evening Telegraph, mainly between 1991 and 2002 - the items that is, not the school CP! It terminated not long before your first posting, so you may have already found it.

I have no idea if A_Lurkologist and 47David are resident in, or have current connections with Derby, or indeed if they are the same person. It may be that we could establish an East Midlands Chapter of the Forum!

On the subject of local newspapers, I haven't read the Nottingham Evening Post for many years, but back in, I think, the late 1960s, there were some exchanges on school CP in its 'readers letters' columns. I did keep these, but a quick search of where they ought to be has failed to find them. If they ever turn up I'll see if the quality is good enough to crank up the OCR program - there's far too many to transcribe by hand. It has to be said though that some of them were fairly lurid, and I had the feeling that they might well rank with the notorious recollections in the same paper regarding the Nottm. University Professor who used to exercise his penguins in Wollaton Park, at least some of which originated from lads a few years junior to me at NHS.

A_L

I had not in fact seen the thread about Derbyshire before, very interesting even though some of the letters are from fantasists ( no father would spank his teenage daughter on the bare bottom at a bus stop).

I have numerous relatives from Derbyshire and the actual place where most of them live is mentioned on the thread. I know two of my cousins went to a school where male teachers did cane girls although I do not know whether any of my female cousins were caned. One cousin, 6 years younger than me, did get spanked by her mother, though, and I witnessed such a spanking when she would have been about eight. Off topic, but this cousin has a twenty year old daughter who has a quite remarkable entry on Facebook. It is open to anyone and contains numerous scantily clad pictures of her and detailed accounts of her relationships with men.I do not know whether her parents are aware of this and I'm not going to tell them or her grandmother who I speak to regularly.

As for males being listed on Girls Schools on FR I have seen this at a local school. Clearly these blokes were looking up some girl they fancied and got listed as former pupils. It can easily be done!

Hi Declan. We seem to have found our own little corner here to conduct a civilised conversation whilst the sound and fury of the rest of this estimable Forum reverberates around us. Doubtless American Way will discover us one day, but he seems preoccupied elsewhere at present. Sorry American Way, you've already encountered my rather warped British sense of humour!

Declan, you say:

this cousin has a twenty year old daughter who has a quite remarkable entry on Facebook. It is open to anyone and contains numerous scantily clad pictures of her and detailed accounts of her relationships with men.I do not know whether her parents are aware of this and I'm not going to tell them or her grandmother who I speak to regularly.

Certainly you should not tell the grandmother, unless you are unable to communicate with the young lady through any other channels. The young lady herself needs to be made aware as soon as possible that she is extremely foolish. All sorts of agencies search Facebook as a matter of routine these days. To my knowledge these include many employers, local newspapers, police and savvy parents whose offspring are intending matrimony. If the entry is in her own name she could quite easily blow her chances of a desirable job. She is obviously at the rather wild stage now, but if in future she met the man of her dreams, possibly with the bonus of expectations of inherited wealth from his parents, those parents might well persuade him to look elsewhere after having viewed her Facebook entry!

You also say:

I had not in fact seen the thread about Derbyshire before, very interesting even though some of the letters are from fantasists ( no father would spank his teenage daughter on the bare bottom at a bus stop).

As regards the last bit I tend to agree with you, but the folks in parts of rural Derbyshire are a bit strange! In this case though, if I remember rightly, it was supposedly in the Wardwick and most probably a fantasy. I'm sure you are acquainted with the Network54 Forum search engine at the top of the Forum index page below the Honourary Life Members, which amazingly has actually worked, after a fashion, for some time now. Typing in 'derby' will find you quite a few entries, including this thread called 'Re: The great Derbyshire debate' which is a sort of commentary on the other thread and contains some interesting stuff, though not entirely about Derby or Derbyshire.

If you do search for derby, derbysire, nottingham or nottinghamshire be wary of any contributions by a lady called Treesortees who was a creation of our esteemed fellow contributor Steve M designed to convince me that girls were caned at NGHS. I've no idea if they were, though I suspect not, but I can be absolutely certain that Treesortees wasn't!

In the course of tracking down the second Derbyshire thread I found this thread from the past called 'Effects of a caning'. Interesting like many threads, but in particular containing a September 2003 query from Ian, a new contributor, as to how the Forum works. A contributor called Roger replies:

Very few people know how this forum works, Ian, and those that do are reluctant to write about it.

How true that is, even today!

And finally, I trust that you've checked the FR records, if any, for the Derbyshire school your cousins attended and where male teachers caned girls?

Query for American Way. A lot of girls are paddled at Alvin HS.

Heres how to find corporal punishment data for schools districts (from the year 2006). Data is not available for every school district in a state as the study uses sampling data:
1. Begin at the Office for Civil Rights :http://ocrdata.ed.gov/ocr2006rv30/wdsdata.html
2. Click on View the Data
3. Choose the first table under Reported Data (07A/08A) Student enrollment
4. To choose data for a state, scroll down the list and choose which state you are interested in. To choose a specific school or district, select the district/school name.
5. Once you have made your selection, click on Data Categories from the Select Dimensions menu. Make your selection from the available data types.
6. Continue down the Select Dimensions menu, adding whatever information you would like to see on the report, i.e. race/ethnicity, gender, etc.
7. When you have finished selecting from all available data, click on the icon in the top left corner

In case you don't want to go through all those machinations on the orca site.

Corporal Punishment rates from Alvin Teaxas.

TX ALVIN ELEMENTARY Female 20 Male 70 out of 265
TX ALVIN HIGH SCHOOL Female 355 Male 680 out of 1430
TX ALVIN JUNIOR HIGH Female 125 Male 275 out of 320

This is typical in two ways: first the per student frequency peaks in the early teens, second gender ratio. Remember these numbers are for the students paddled and not the number of incidences. The boys are boys and often get in trouble for other reasons than tardiness and dress code violations which I would imagine given the girls' proclivities to manifest their rebellion increases as they enter their midteens which makes the numbers claimed at Alvin High School within the realm of reality. Sadly the disparity in numbers also reflects the sugar and spice factor that comes with the use of the girls wiles that leads to resentment among the boys at the very age when their awareness of this would be peaking. This is one of the reasons why I am in favor of the enforcement of inflexible disciplinary codes of conduct. Batting their eyelashes too often becomes an ingrained habit just ask any police officer trying to keep the roads safe. Our schools would be safer places as would our roads if they were held equally accountable as claimed in school handbooks driving laws. Not justifying it but proclivities clashing with proclivities account for why spousal abuse and road rage is more tempting for the man than the woman.

On a lighter note the Principal of the Junior High School is Trent Thrasher.

One of his students said of him on Rate My Teachers Trent Thrasher that he is OK if you stay out of his way and another said I think he is very mean and is kinda rude, and thinks he is all that and a bag of chips!

Bag of chips is the American Way of saying he is all that and more. Do you have something akin to ratemyteachers.com over there or better still after we get the name of Dr Dominum's school from his school's documentary in Australia?

The thread is called Keep It Real. The ORCA data is by the number of students paddled and the outlandish paddling numbers seen in that light from the teacher chat board made sense after all. In a course of a year the same student can be paddled more than once and isn't that the way with kids. The figures given in a previous post here was.

9th grade boys: 168
9th grade girls: 85

10th grade boys: 138
10th grade girls: 103

11th grade boys: 128
11th grade girls: 151

12th grade boys: 119
12th grade girls: 176


The claim made on Teacher Chat Board was the above numbers and it approaches the credibility test. TX ALVIN HIGH SCHOOL Female 355 Male 680 receiving CP. The male numbers reflect misbehavior other than tardies. The kids grew bolder and not better with age or the teachers held the kids feet to the fire so to speak expecting more of them. Schools like Alvin are very circumspect when it deals with what is a minor or a major offense or infraction and the specific minor or major disciplinary sanction that goes with it. At Alvin it is obvious that CP is a tool that they don't keep locked up in a toolbox!!! Obviously the paddle wasnt stinging enough so the questions should be does anyone know how to us it?


Every Fall when students return decisions are made whether to continue, abolish or bring back CP in schools. Awhile back Twiggs County in Georgia reinstituted it Steve Dupree's appeal to keep it is seen in the video and his handbook follows.

Georgia WEST BAINBRIDGE MIDDLE SCHOOL story is below (news video that's sure to be on Corpun). Female and Male enrollment precede the number of boys and girls paddled. I haven't found a school where more girls are paddled than boys but some are very close in numbers even in the high school years like 40 girls to 50 boys in Atherton High School in Louisville KY. A large number for a small school. Their baseball bat was called the Louisville Slugger and was the starting place of Cassius Clay who became Muhammed Ali. Ali has a Boulevard and a an Isitute of Peace and Justice named for him at the University of Louisville and as I said before the great strikout artist Nolan Ryan has a Middle School named after him in little Alvin TX.

The stats are at the bottom at that Middle School.


Duprees Bainbridge GA Middle School video and handbook. Hes making a last ditch effort to keep CP.

http://bainbridgega.com/news/publish/082709boe.shtml

http://www.dcboe.com/wbm/StudentHandbook.doc



Enrollment 305 Female 20 Enrollment 280 Male 85

American Way, although I take issue with you from time to time just to keep you on your toes I know that you are a man who takes his figures and statistics seriously. I am therefore surprised that you say of the 02 June 2009 Teachers Net item contributed by 'Emily L', supposedly with regard to a suburban High School in Mississippi:

The claim made on Teacher Chat Board was the above numbers and it approaches the credibility test.

IMHO it is about as credible as the reports of school CP administered with liquorice tawses that we endured on this estimable Forum a short time ago!

The item is linked and pasted in my post at 01:45 on 24 June 2009 in this thread, but so that anyone who cares to can easily judge I'm going to repeat it in full yet again:

In the suburban high school where I teach, students may choose between a paddling and some alternative punishment like Saturday detention for things like excess tardies, parking violations, profanity, etc.

Almost all students choose the corporal punishment. Girls must be paddled by a female teacher/administrator and usually go to the coaches' office in the girls' locker room to be paddled.

Students usually get 3 to 5 licks on the buttocks with a large wooden paddle. These are full on licks and a paddling is very painful and students are usually sore for a few days, escially when sitting down, jogging, etc. Still, it is greatly preferred to spending a Saturday in detention.

Here are the stats for last year. There are a about 1800 students in the school.

Total paddlings:

9th grade boys: 168
9th grade girls: 85

10th grade boys: 138
10th grade girls: 103

11th grade boys: 128
11th grade girls: 151

12th grade boys: 119
12th grade girls: 176

To save anyone adding them up that amounts to 1068 paddlings in the school year, of which 553 were administered to boys and 515 were administered to girls. That's over 48% of paddlings administered to girls! But worse still, look at the figures for 11th grade, 54% of paddlings administered to girls, and 12th grade, nearly 60% of paddlings administered to girls!

In fact in that school the boys get steadily better behaved as they go through the grades and the girls get quite markedly worse behaved - more than twice as many girls paddled in 12th grade as in 9th grade! Did anyone ever encounter a school with a behaviour pattern like that in real life? I think not! It is quite clearly a complete fantasy!

American Way, you said of those statistics at 05:07 on 24 June 2009 in this thread:

LMAO at those figures too. The Juniors and Seniors girls must have been hit with a licorice paddle or maybe a limp wristed man. The fantasy posting got way out of line and the moderators of the forum had to intervene below. God forbid if anything ever happened like that here. The statistics was previously posted by someone who claimed to be an Arkansas teacher and now has morphed into a Mississippi one.

For the benefit of our UK readers, who may not be familiar with LMAO it stands for 'laughing my ass off'. My own sentiments exactly, although I'd tend to say ROFL rather than LMAO. I really would be interested to know, American Way, why you now think that those same figures approach the credibility test!

The punishment prescribed is paddling but you throw 10 girls per class (45 for the school) suspensions it changes things. Let's focus on the junior class and not senioritis previously mentioned. You have about 150 girls in the Junior class and out of that 60 are assigned to be paddled for being tardy but unbeknownst to the poster 10 of those is resolved by suspensions in the Principal's office. How would the teacher know for sure?

Those 50 girls would not surprisingly be paddled on an average less than three times a year over four quarters. It's incredible the number of tardies that can be racked up. It's not just being late when school starts but between classes by loitering in the bathrooms and corridors or outside the building. There are factors that enter in because it's a regional school so the freshman and sophomore rely on timely buses while the kids that are 16 and 17 year old drive to school or upperclassmen may have just one stickler of a teacher with a stop watch that feels the older you are the more you should be an example but all this is endless and perhaps needless conjecture. ORCA is reporting an average of 90 girls of 150 in that Junior Class are earning serious disciplinary sanctions with 80 being hit with a paddle.

Let's put this in perspective the poster thinks to himself that in my own chat board my veracity is doubted. So he quotes ORCA to prove his point on the chat board. Maybe someone other than who I first suspected posted something inappropriate or for their own arousal to get the thread yanked? Why would the person quote something that disproves his point? But when I considered how many schools other than Alvin among the 20 states and hundreds of high fit the profile that makes that scenario at least somewhat plausible? A very creative troll he must have been to pick that school with data that could be culled from and reconstruct for his posting!!!

Another Lurker, with all due respect I think you might be applying misleading cultural notions here. Practices vary drastically in place as well as time, and something that would seem grotesquely abnormal in the UK--or indeed the other parts of the United States, such as the northeastern states and California, where school paddling has been banned for many years--are much more commonplace and an accepted way of life in the southern states of America. As American Way suggests, the older a girl gets the more she is likely to feel (1) that she's tough and hardy enough not to be scared to take a few licks, and (2) that she doesn't want to waste her Saturday in detention, when she could be out socializing with her friends. No doubt also various male administators take advantage of this kind of situation. I'd put these kinds of statistics in the "strange but true" category.

If there are any female lurkers out there who could comment on this for us, that would be very helpful.

Let's now assume male administrators (Steve Halter with Nancy) are somehow taking advantage of this situation for carnal reasons. This is sadly becoming common and as in common (vulgar). To imply that they would be more inclined to perform paddling a female bottom I would suggest may be a a projection as in Jeff Charles Southern Education (Google that and see if you can understand better what Renee et. al. are up against at TWP). Only a perverted few may have another end in view than the good of the student and the study body at large is often a projection but and certainly an indictment of Western culture. Fathers would be outraged if others said that of them. Where do you think in loco paentis comes from? As a reluctant concession I am leaning toward having a girl being permitted but not encouraged to request a woman witness if this makes her uncomfortable but only as a word of mouth policy and not in the handbook so as not to give merit to this unfair sterotyping. What's next prohibiting a lesbian (married by the state) to take part in a female paddling? Don't laugh that is becoming more and more popular among the so called enlightened states.

Nero: Judging from the bottom paragraph and discipline chart from Teacher Chat Board it is not altogether implausible the swats stats mentioned below are on the up and up. I thought of this upon seeing the orca data independently after LMAO or as you jicks say ROLF. Girls strong suits are not punctuality, driving and they fond of smoking on school property and using their cell phones judging by my own.

Another phenomenon I've become aware of is that Asian girls are almost as bad as the boys unlike Native Americans, Hispanics and Blacks. Little wonder that Malaysia is considering bringing back the cane because of girls indiscipline as they say. As a unit the Asians (perhaps for respect of authority and abhorrence for losing face) are the least paddled so it's hard to draw anything conclusive from the data.

On an unrelated matter but previously mentioned I found the likely origin of the pejorative word jicks came from. The British were understandably mocked by Irish and European immigrants who had the burden of their differences (such as religion, accents, language and menial occupations often polishing their silver, cleaning their floors and washing their linens for their ladies and doing the heavy lifting for their lords. When confronted with their high and mighty ways it didn't go unnoticed by some that the jicks were nothing but trumped up servants back home who were trying to act like lords and ladies here. As second generation I didn't here about this third hand and they were reated like white that WAS the American Way.


Posted 7/21/09

It is intersting that one result of equal rights has been a more equal
application of corporal punishment. Through the mid 1970's in Arkansas and
elsewhere, girls were a small minority of students who were paddled. When the
issue of equal punishment came up and a voluntary choice for all students was
applied, girls as well as boys began to be paddled routinely. While 9th grade
boys still seem to receive the most swats, at this point they are followed
closely by 11th and 12th grade girls. The infractions resulting in swats in
these groups include tardies, cell phone use, tobacco violations, parking lot
violations, etc.

Posted 7/17/09

first unexcused tardy = warning
second unexcused tardy = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
third unexcused tardy = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
fourth unexcused tardy = 5 licks or 3 days ISS
first cell phone violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
second cell phone violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
tobacco violation = 5 licks or 3 days ISS
profanity = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
profanity towards teacher or staff = 5 licks or 3 days ISS
parking lot violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
bus violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
dress code violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
skipping = 5 licks or 3 days ISS
academic dishonesty = 5 licks or 3 days ISS
class disruption = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
gum, candy, food in class = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
failure to dress out for PE = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
public display of affection = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
internet use violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention
damage/destuction of property = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
theft = 3 licks or 5 hours detention
false statements/note to teacher or staff = 3 licks or 5
hours detention

Hi Nero. Good to hear from you. You say:

Another Lurker, with all due respect I think you might be applying misleading cultural notions here. Practices vary drastically in place as well as time, and something that would seem grotesquely abnormal in the UK--or indeed the other parts of the United States, such as the northeastern states and California, where school paddling has been banned for many years--are much more commonplace and an accepted way of life in the southern states of America.

Whilst I greatly admire many things about the US, including their patriotism and the fact that the vast majority of their population appear to respect and honour the the symbols of their nationhood, I know very little about their schools. However, my incredulity at the reappearance of the statistics was in no small part influenced by the fact that American Way himself had earlier said of them:

LMAO at those figures too. The Juniors and Seniors girls must have been hit with a licorice paddle or maybe a limp wristed man.

Appealing as I find the idea of a limp wristed man being wielded to chastise a young lady on the bottom, I was bound to give some credence to the LMAO! But that was not all. American Way also said:

The statistics was previously posted by someone who claimed to be an Arkansas teacher and now has morphed into a Mississippi one.

The latter comment does not of course totally condemn the figures ipso facto. Doubtless US teachers, like those in the UK, are under considerable stress and may well forget in which state the school they work in is situated. However, as regards the proportion and age of the girls punished they are so far out of line with anything else American Way has posted that I do find them more than a little suspicious.

With the greatest respect, we'll have to agree to differ on this one at the moment. However, American Way's extensive excavations in the ORCA database may unearth the actual school concerned, in which case the notoriety of Bacons School will fade into insignificance!

The OCR Data has similiarities in CP numbers from state to state because of the same proclivities of youth breaching similar rules. I stopped laughing when people thought the disciplinary chart posted above was the work of someone's imagination and I already knew about Winona (not as many swats) below. No one knows how culturally entrenched CP is in the Southeast and it is wrong to assume that male teachers are getting their jollies by striking a girl's posterior however developed.

Parents entrust their kids to their teachers and I hardly think that trust would be abused by teachers themselves who often have children in the same school system. I'm of the mind to have a woman paddle a girl and a man paddle a boy if available but wouldn't guarantee given limits of certified personnel ready to administer and witness at any given moment in a the course of a school day. I would definitely permit a woman in the room if it made her feel more safe.

Pass this by me again. Do you think a professional woman is going to stand by idly if she suspects a male teacher is pleasuring himself at the expense of a teenager of her own gender and perhaps a mother herself? Give me a break. Too often people project their vice on the innocent. Case in point. QED.

Truth Stranger Than Fantasy

One of the most notorious schools for corporal punishment is the famous South Grand Prairie High School because of the famed cheerleader Amber Page paddling in 1999. She was some baby brat and the courts agreed. Amber is all grown up at 26 with two kids.

http://www.myspace.com/babygurllovescowboy

She looks just like she did in Corpun without the pompoms!!!

South Grand Prairie High School released some remarkable data. Somehow they can't get the girls to behave at the school almost ten years later. I think they had a reversal of gender data through a clerical error or there is someone who cant tell a boy from girls!!! They have another school named Grand Prairie High School that seems more in line with the male/female corporal punishment ratio. These schools are near Everman Junior High School. Fort Worth TX is one of the few larger urban areas that still paddle. It's a blend of Blacks, Hispanics and Whites of course being less paddled for what I feel is for family structure and not racism. The Office of Civil Rights is doing the bookkeeping after all. But the data could be true if in 2006/2007 the girls became insurgents and the Principal put the rebellion down and spent a whole day paddling them. Maybe members of this estimable Forum can start casting for the film (Massacre at South Prairie High School). I think Clint Eastwood would make a great Principal. MAKE MY DAY.

TX SO GRAND PRAIRIE H S 1770 280 1715 180

Female Population 1770 with 280 Corporal Punishment

Male Population 1715 with 180 Corporal Punishment

TX GRAND PRAIRIE H S 1480 165 1490 275

Female Population 1480 with 165 Corporal Punishment

Male Population 1490 with 275 Corporal Punishment
.

I can certainly understand your scepticism on this occasion, A-L. At the same time, I recall an interview some time ago with the American fiction writer Donna Tartt, who was born in Mississippi in 1963, where she grew up and went to school. She said in her interview that paddling was "rife" in her school, though she didn't specify whether for girls or boys, or indeed whether she herself ever received it. This is one of those occasions where, in order to establish the facts, having more female input into this forum would be very helpful. We used to have more women contributors to this friendly chat-board back in the old days--did they all get scared away?!

Hi American Way. I have often wished that I could meet Condoleezza Rice. A great personality, a brain the size of the known universe and beautiful to boot. However I have always been somewhat nervous of American women in general. I think it is all that whooping and squealing they do! I am sure that Condoleezza Rice has never indulged in whooping or squealing, whereas I suspect the girls at South Grand Prairie High School do a great deal of it, and not just when they are being paddled!

Can that really be correct?

• Male Population      1715 with 180 Corporal Punishment
• Female Population 1770 with 280 Corporal Punishment

You tell me that it is, Nero tells me above that it could be! An Arab Chief, encountering our formidable British Victorian era adventuress Gertrude Bell far from civilisation in the middle of a desert is said to have remarked:

By Allah! If that is one of their women, what must their men be like?

One wonders what he might have made of the girls from South Grand Prairie High School!

But back to reality! It is my sad duty to point out that by Bacons School standards South Grand Prairie High School doesn't even rate a mention. In one year at Bacons out of a total school pupil population of 1000 (that's boys and girls) girls were caned 200 times. That's a 2˝ times higher rate of CP to girls pro rata at Bacons than at South Grand Prairie High School. And remember the Bacons figures only include canings recorded in the punishment book. The girls got their share of classroom slipperings as well, which weren't recorded.

Sorry, American Way, must try harder, like the girls at South Grand Prairie High School!

I was being facetious about Bacons. It was a lame attempt at humor. I know very little of Bacons because I'm still a newbie and I haven't read many past posts. I was clearly in the wrong. What else is new? Can anyone find another word than facetious that has aeiou is succession? I have tried but failed.

American Way, you are not playing the game! You shouldn't say:

I was being facetious about Bacons. It was a lame attempt at humor. I know very little of Bacons because I'm still a newbie and I haven't read many past posts. I was clearly in the wrong. What else is new?

It wasn't a lame attempt at humour, you are not a newbie, and you are not clearly in the wrong. If anyone is in the wrong it is me for winding you up!

What you should say is:

OK, I was just joking about South Grand Prairie High School. Now let's see you shoot down the Alvin, Texas, schools that you carefully avoided commenting on:

• TX ALVIN JUNIOR HIGH   Female 125 Male 275 paddled out of   320
• TX ALVIN HIGH SCHOOL Female 355 Male 680 paddled out of 1430

The High School beats Bacons, and the Junior High School blows Bacons out of the water with twice as many female students pro rata subjected to CP.

And I can't shoot them down, because they do!

There you are you see, it's easy when you try!

You also say:

Can anyone find another word than facetious that has aeiou is succession?

You may consider this cheating and not want to look, but I don't 'cos I'm hopeless at word games. See the list here. If you Google 'words containing a e i o u in order' (without the single quotes) you'll find lots of other lists.

I didn't carefully avoid mentioning Alvin because that was about another issue. I mentioned both South and Grand Prairie because it was remarkable (more females paddled than boys although often they are close in a few schools). Its likely wrong that the female and male numbers were correct because if you reverse the genders of the South than you have more or less the same ratios and more in line than other schools. The bad girls in the lower grades are likely to become more or less the bad girls in the higher grades in time. Some questions come to my mind. Would the good girls stay good without the deterrence factor? The bad girls must share their war stories. Would the bad girls become worse if it weren't for the paddle? When they grow up will having corporal punishment a part of their life make them better? I wouldn't even look up South Grand Prairie if it weren't for Googling Amber Page who BTW is definitely not our Amber because upon further analysis and I'm totally surprised that no one in this estimable Forum took me to task on that account by known it doesnt add up. Cheerleaders are picked from the good girls and she was hanging out with bad so being thrown off the team must have hurt her more than two licks. I prefer pops because onomatopoeia is my favorite. Which is easier to enjoy hearing than spelling because its all Greek to me and Im glad my wife wasnt a cheerleader because I would rather wake up with an alarm clock.

Hi American Way. You raise some very interesting issues in your post above. You ask:

Would the good girls stay good without the deterrence factor?

Are girls different to boys in this respect? I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think they are and that yes, I think the good girls would stay good without the deterrence factor.

I'm not so sure about boys though. I was a pretty good lad at school, but there were a few times when I'd have liked to be otherwise. However, for most of my school career I resisted the temptation because I'd developed a strong aversion to being corporeally punished very early on, and such punishment was always a possibility. So you could say that I stayed good because of the deterrence factor. The effect didn't run out until I was 17 and in the second year 6th form. At that stage, from specific recent discussion in this estimable Forum, if I'd been at Doctor Dominum's school I'd almost certainly have been caned for the first time in my life. In the event my Headmaster, for whom I had, and still have, very great respect and admiration, took a different approach. It didn't work, whereas in view of my previous response to CP caning might have done. But that's another story.

You also ask:

Would the bad girls become worse if it weren't for the paddle?

I think you've already answered that question yourself when you say:

The bad girls in the lower grades are likely to become more or less the bad girls in the higher grades in time.

Which I think means no, because the bad girls get worse anyway despite the paddle.

IMHO women are a lot more stubborn and determined than men. I think some bad girls are probably converted to good girls by their first paddling, but the ones that dig their heels in and decide to stay bad will probably do so no matter how much they get paddled.

The school culture will probably also have something to do with it. Though there were clearly many exceptions I think in the majority of English mixed schools in the 2nd half of the 20th century a lot less girls than boys got corporal punishment. Those that did would often become objects of attention to their fellow pupils in ways they probably didn't much like. So for girls the deterrent effect of CP was probably much greater than for boys. However, many of your High Schools in paddling areas seem to paddle lots of girls, so it is probably no big thing when a girl gets paddled, hence the deterrent effect for a girl is probably no more than for a boy. A bit like Scotland in the UK, where both boys and girls got belted (tawsed) in great numbers and girls treated it in much the same way that boys did.

And you say:

I prefer pops because onomatopoeia is my favorite.

Onomatopoeia - sound imitating sense as one of my English masters used to define it. Probably one of the best teachers ever, and great entertainment value too. His selected scenes from Macbeth playing all the parts himself and with no props but his academic gown was something nobody who saw it ever forgets! Onomatopoeia was one of his favourites too. Everyone he taught could trot out

The moan of doves in immemorial elms,
And murmuring of innumerable bees.

instantly when the window opening pole pointed in their direction. You had to, or he hurled the pole at you like a javelin!

If you like onomatopoeia you'll like this site, where they also quote that bit of poetry above. It probably is one of the best examples in English.

Good girls are either good more by nature than nurture or vice a versa. Those more by nature than nurture when acting out of character need not be paddled more than once. Nancy is a good girl by nature otherwise she wouldn't have worked her way up the ladder to being Miss Boonevile but her talent was acting and she couldn't resist when she saw a camera. She toyed with him and his toy and he turned out to be the coward. She can hold her head up high but the same cannot be said of he who fleeced his town. She had the courage to submit. Nancy your better than that whole lot.

Some knock knock jokes.

Knock Knock Jokes

Female Total Female CP F OSS Male Total Male CP Male OSS

GA CALHOUN COUN EL SCHOOL 175 40 5 195 55 10
GA CALHOUN COU M/H SCHOOL 175 55 15 185 85 35

The elementary school is from 1st to 6th and middle and high school is from 7th to 12th so the enrollment is even. The teacher was rightly fired in 2003 but in 2006/2007 it was one of the schools that didn't let the paddle gather dust. He sounds like a sadistic bigot to me and I hope no one rehires him. But when there is a bad apple among them they know how to keep their school safe.

What people often don't understand these figures are a snapshot of one academic year but over the course of twelve years your chance of being paddled is much higher. There is less disgrace involved it's just a part of growing up in Calhoun.

The girls seem braver than the boys because they opt out of paddling less for out of school suspension. From these disciplinary sanction numbers I gather they're being held to a high behavioral standard but they appear to be improving academically. IMHO it's not causal but it's not surprising either judging by TWP and the Newsweek Article with school improving grades.

Good Grades for Calhoun County

Good Bye Teacher Who Paddled Almost Every Student

I was just thinking all this unearthing of Office of Civil Rights (OCR) data was to prove Alvin High School posting on the Teacher Chat Board was keeping it real. I was shocked to see one school that said they paddled more boys than they were enrolled until it became obvious they were recording incidences and not following the government reporting rule. What a bookkeeping headache it would be for the OCR to record all the incidences and infractions?

Human Rights Watch (HRW) noticed the same. We know that it's the number of students and not the number of incidences that bear out the veracity of the tardy numbers. Those schools that do record are Fort Payne, Wilson County AL and it bears out the three one ratio between incidences and individuals. This makes Alvin TX statistics sound real to me. Hence three hundred paddlings were given to 100 kids. Elementary schools rack up the most number of students for understandably suspension is not an option.

I think a few generalizations are in order from the details I have unearthed from the Office of Civil Rights Data and Discipline Incident Reports. Since 2000 there has been a biennial report of students receiving CP. The next up will presumable be soon (2008). Civil Rights in the earlier records focused on gender, color and not so much limited English skills or disabilities. That started in 2006. More students are being defined as both and so the numbers rocket. The umbrella has morphed into a tent thanks to lawyers and doctors where we dont have surfeit of.

Last month the OCR released the totals on CP among the disabled and it was easy for people to jump to wrong conclusions. Most students dont look at the disparity in terms of those set parameters but the disparity of behavior. I would assume that same would be true of teachers and parents or someone would be shouting foul and not just Paula Flowe and her ilk. The biennial 2008 report should be published now that in August they reported the disability CP numbers.

I look at the following data categories (ORC): Sex; CP, Suspensions and Enrollment and that tells me what I want to know. Girls opt out of CP more than boys by two to one but obviously more boys are suspended in total. Its really quite easy to do if you follow the directions .

What am I saying? Lets just say there are 40 students in your class and 15 cross the line so you paddle 11 boys and 4 girls. More boys than girls would need a repeat dose. So maybe were talking 100,000 girl incidences with 500,000 boy incidences nationwide. There are no as many men teaching elementary school but a fair amount of both genders representing the teachers as the students grow older Post pubescent adolescents are likely to be paddled (Man with a Boy) and (Woman with a Girl).

TWP girls only paddled boys and warned girls. Now Renee is paddling a student perilously close in age to secondary school where she wasnt too keen on having CP. I didnt realize that Rene was old enough to have taught Mirandas mother?

FYI for those interested in accessing CP information the American Way. I'm done unearthing data until 2010 comes along with the 2008/2009 data. You might find something worth sharing by scanning the data and sharing. The default settings for student groups focuses on race, disabilities and languages but that is why it is Civil Rights data. I look at it through the lense of gender, CP and OSS that dovetails with the interest of this estimable Forum. Let's just look at Fort Payne Alabama mentioned previously.

Always start with Corpun and get use to navigating this site. Youll find Fort Payne City Alabama news stories. They are indexed.

19321 from 6/28/07

And 20026 from 2/5/08

Check Alabama Student Handbook and down load there 2005 perpetrator list (a rare bonus) and their code of conduct from their student handbook published online. Fort Payne City is actually a county with a middle school and high school that bear its name and two elementary schools that dont. The ideal is to have twice as many elementary schools than middle and half that for high school. The closer to your neighborhood and smaller seem to work better. This county is small so it gets buy with four schools.

Now the tough part is to access the raw data but you dont have to have a physics degree to do this. Remember this is put out by Civil Rights (data link below) scroll down to the second item under the bold face title and click. Now you have a screen so hit View Data and up comes a menu so start at the bottom right where its says so student group blank those three boxes. Where it says sex blank the third box and check the female and male boxes. Now where it says data category click and a list comes down so check corporal punishment and enrollment then view data and a list of states are listed.

Caveat where there are 80% kids paddled or more than the enrollment they are not following directions and are not counting kids but incidences.

Check the states that use corporal punishment most frequently one at a time. About 80,000 of the 200,000 listed are from MS and TX and AR and AL and GA. Bear with me it gets trickier. Then hit view box in upper left hand corner. The counties or districts come down and in the left hand corner you have two arrows pointing up and down and these are page turners to get you to next group listed alphabetically. But right after you do scan the high numbers of CP for the females immediately look to the left and see the enrollment. When you see a high percentage click and you will have the various schools broken down. The early age schools often (but not always) paddle the most frequently. The earlier grades rarely or never use OSS understandably but thats another data category but lets stick to CP.

TWP astutely noted some high schools dont paddle while the lower grades in the same districts do hence it might die out on its own by attrition and the high schools have options that the lower grades dont. Saturday school (not great because some kids have nothing but time on their hands but what I would use if CP) and/or preventing students to participate in extracurricular activities (not a good idea for an involved kid like Nancy or a need to be involved kid like Miranda). Nancy had things she wanted to do on Saturday so she chose the paddle.

One of my strongest reasons for favoring CP is that it cuts back on OSS. Boy was I wrong according to the stats. The schools that use CP use the OSS option as well even more than those who dont. You figure? Are they too strict? Are teachers assigning OSS and not paddling. I think that is the reason. Ft Payne doesnt allow parents to opt out unless specifically a part of a special needs plan. What if you have a Jessica Serafin who fights a paddling? You abort call the parents and sort it out from there. I noticed there were three suspensions (big offenses Im sure), no expulsions or alternative. The administration, parents, teachers and students seem to be on the same page and IMHO thats why its working.

Seriously, CP may not be modifying behavior so OSS is being employed which I think is a big mistake. Throwing a kid out of school who doesnt want to be there is being an enabler. True it makes the class easier to teach but the public school goal should be turning out better citizens. Turning your back on a teenager is going to come back and bite you when you consider the cost of crime and incarceration. More and more districts like Fort Payne are coming up with alternative schools. That sends a stronger message to a student that the district cares more than OSS however short and certainly expulsions.

FYI for those interested in accessing CP information the American Way so now Im done sleuthing the data until 2010 publishes the 2008/2009 data. Ill use Alabama as an example.

Always start with Corpun and get use to navigating this site. Youll find Fort Payne City in Alabama news stories. They are indexed.

19321 from 6/28/07

And 20026 from 2/5/08

Check Alabama Student Handbook and down load there 2005 perpetrator list (a rare bonus) and their code of conduct from their student handbook published online. Fort Payne City is actually a county with a middle school and high school that bear its name and two elementary schools that dont. The ideal is to have twice as many elementary schools than middle and half that for high school. The closer to your neighborhood and smaller seem to work better. This county is small so it gets buy with four schools.

Now the tough part is to access the raw data but you dont have to have a physics degree to do this. Remember this is put out by Civil Rights (data link below) scroll down to the second item under the bold face title and click. Now you have a screen so hit View Data and up comes a menu so start at the bottom right where its says so student group blank those three boxes. Where it says sex blank the third box and check the female and male boxes. Now where it says data category click and a list comes down so check corporal punishment and enrollment then view data and a list of states are listed.

Caveat where there are 80% kids paddled or more than the enrollment they are not following directions and are not counting kids but incidences.

Check the states that use corporal punishment most frequently one at a time. About 80,000 of the 200,000 listed are from MS and TX and AR and AL and GA. Bear with me it gets trickier. Then hit view box in upper left hand corner. The counties or districts come down and in the left hand corner you have two arrows pointing up and down and these are page turners to get you to next group listed alphabetically. But right after you do scan the high numbers of CP for the females immediately look to the left and see the enrollment. When you see a high percentage click and you will have the various schools broken down. The early age schools often (but not always) paddle the most frequently. The earlier grades rarely or never use OSS understandably but thats another data category but lets stick to CP.

TWP astutely noted some high schools dont paddle while the lower grades in the same districts do hence it might die out on its own by attrition and the high schools have options that the lower grades dont. Saturday school (not great because some kids have nothing but time on their hands but what I would use if CP) and/or preventing students to participate in extracurricular activities (not a good idea for an involved kid like Nancy or a need to be involved kid like Miranda). Nancy had things she wanted to do on Saturday so she chose the paddle.

One of my strongest reasons for favoring CP is that it cuts back on OSS. Boy was I wrong according to the stats. The schools that use CP use the OSS option as well even more than those who dont. You figure? Are they too strict? Are teachers assigning OSS and not paddling. I think that is the reason. Ft Payne doesnt allow parents to opt out unless specifically a part of a special needs plan. What if you have a Jessica Serafin who fights a paddling? You abort call the parents and sort it out from there. I noticed there were three suspensions (big offenses Im sure), no expulsions or alternative. The administration, parents, teachers and students seem to be on the same page and IMHO thats why its working.

Seriously, CP may not be modifying behavior so OSS is being employed which I think is a big mistake. Throwing a kid out of school who doesnt want to be there is being an enabler. True it makes the class easier to teach but the public school goal should be turning out better citizens. Turning your back on a teenager is going to come back and bite you when you consider the cost of crime and incarceration. More and more districts like Fort Payne are coming up with alternative schools. That sends a stronger message to a student that the district cares more than OSS however short and certainly expulsions.

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/ocr2006rv30/wdsdata.html

As you know by the forms to be filled out they have to have a destination. It's a mother lode of data of discipline. The code of conduct violations are not broken down but you can't say of the Texans that the ain't misbehvin. prof n with your interest in Texas you might find it worthwhile to navigate and opine? I started with Alvin TX to see the code of conduct violations. These numbers can be mind boggling. From the UK just a cursory glance makes it evident the schools have grave concerns with safety since 9/11 and Columbine.

Texan Size Problems

What is real and what is unreal?
What is truth and what is nonsense?
Who is to judge whether something really took place or not?
Remember that old adage
"The truth is stranger than fiction."

Haven't contributed for some time but just thought I would let you know that I am not A Lurkologist.

Hi 47 david. You say:

Haven't contributed for some time

Why ever not?

just thought I would let you know that I am not A Lurkologist.

I am very relieved to hear that. And I am not now nor have I ever been Fran of Wembley. I was not slippered in green gym knickers by a male teacher in a room adjacent to the gymnasium at Copland School, Wembley and the Headmistress did not ask me afterwards if the matter had been dealt with. I do not have female friends who were publicly caned on their bottoms in schools the length and breadth of the UK (more's the pity! ) and I was not exposed as a fraud by Lotta Nonsense. So there!