Corporal punishment humor follows. The second link was on national television so the videos need not be censored Dr Dominum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZBd_O1szmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_iYmu_7zR4

Mature audience. Was I right in posting this? I hesitated to post this for obvious reasons but there is a relevance that might justify it on the lighter side like Fernwood Tonight that I found just as amusing. Spanking in our culture has a bedroom context but the British vice is not the American Way. There is no carry over to the bedroom from the classroom unless of course your testing a TWP paddle with your husband.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYGflk81tnU

This is another example of corporal punishment on the lighter side. This was the position with chair from what I learned in the faculty lunch room about our principal when I taught. After reading about how paddling works someone may want to comment on how safe this procedure is? Today's disciplinary paddlings are usually three and not five so that was what they probably chose in number for the wheel with the luck of the draw.It was quite a popular program with a large range of dares. It might work over there. Her sorority sisters must have taught her what assume the position meant because there was little hesitation on her part. Thank you Joe may I have another. I'm sure after a few more she would want more money per swat. There was a bit of a pained look after the third sat but that could be my imagination? On a scale from one to ten what would you give that?

http://www.spike.com/episode/29710/st/2967983

New York Times had this news story and sometimes you can get in and other times not but the second link tells you the rest of the story. The boys got away with murder. That's almost as unbelievable as the stoning. I post the NYT because some would say these things never happened. I hope you don't have a hard time getting into the New York Times. Violence is a part of life today but with guns we have Columbine. It's all so very sad. Sometimes I'm sad to say it's the American Way.

Corporal Punishment on the Sadder Side

www.canton.org/history/barstow1.htm

you cant paddle me

Winona MO has a dress code published in their handbook that only allows baseball caps, cowboy hats and visors allowed at school. Caps are to be worn forward or backward only. Sunglasses are to be worn outside only.

This girl is hell bent for wood.

The part time Malaysian model sentence was postponed in case you don't know. News stories are now calling her a supermodel. Thou shall not cane on an empty stomach. It's enough to drive the poor woman to drink.

kartrika caning

I think the graph and the image in the Spanking Lowers IQ link would highlight how indeed it belongs in this thread entitled Corporal Punishment Lighter Side. Maybe someone can walk me through computer corner where I'm sure it's been dealt with but I'm slow.

Spanking Lowers IQ

This is rubbish. It's a confusion between correlation and causation.

The researchers studied some children and found that a relationship between two variables. In itself, this says nothing about whether a change in one causes a change ion the other, or vice versa, or whether both depend upon some third factor which hasn't been investigated.

For instance:

Maybe some of the children were in well-off families, who provided good social support to reduce bad behaviour, and also provided good intellectual support to encourage IQ development?

Or maybe there was some other factor which had an influence? Who knows?

It's Murray Straus promoted research and I'm afraid that makes it suspect. His biases are so strong and obvious that he'd been doing his cause a favour by staying away from it.

(Yes, I'm biased as well, in the opposite direction - but that's one reason why I don't get actively involved in publishing research in this field).

Speaking as a psychologist, the difference in IQ being described in this study is so small, it's within the margin of error. In other words it's meaningless. There are also the issues that correlation doesn't equal causation, as has been said.

And then there's the issue that when you look at the data behind the study, any differences that do exist may well be connected to other factors.



Tanzania. South Africa. Guatemala. According to this study, they have the lowest average IQs. Frankly the scores for South Africa and Tanzania are ridiculous - it implies the average inhabitant of both those nations is - to use an old fashioned term for clarity - mentally retarded, which simply is not true (the reason for the low scores has to do, mostly, with the way testing is used in both those countries - if the only children you IQ test are those you think might have low IQs, you're going to wind up with a low average).

But on the other hand look at Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Singapore, and most especially Taiwan - 'high spanking nations' according to this research - and also the most intelligent nations according to this research.

And why is Sweden so low in the IQ stakes?

Leave all that aside for a moment though and consider the implication if the research is write. Straus claims a 5 point drop in IQ at most.

That's statistically irrelevant.

The difference between a 102IQ and a 97IQ on an IQ test is absolutely irrelevant. You get that difference between two kids and any competent psychologist would tell you "Peter and Jane are equally intelligent".

105 versus 95 - that I'd start taking serious. 120 versus 110 probably means something. But around the average range, and that's where these large scale population differences come from - irrelevant.

Dr Dominum: It's Murray Straus promoted research and I'm afraid that makes it suspect. His biases are so strong and obvious that he'd been doing his cause a favour by staying away from it.

The University of New Hampshire is considered a prestigious university. Is the University of Central Lancaster considered one? There is a saying here publish or perish. Does that apply to the UK? Who sponsors these studies and who tenures (my assumption considering their senior status) these professors? Murray Strauss has found a new hobby horse (domestic violence). UK feminist (Nicola Gramham-Kevan) has not made herself a darling among her own with her study showing liberated woman batter men in Europe. And just think how often do I say at the risk of spousal abuse?

University Central Lancaster

Murray Strauss Commentary

Hi American Way ,

You do ask them . ! Nothing more controversial than comparing universities in the UK.

First a piece of geographical /historical information. Central Lancashire is one of the new Universities ( Central Lancashire not Central Lancaster : there is a Lancaster University , I know it well but it was a University when Central Lancashire was but a gleam in the eye of what was then known as the 'Harris college' a regional college of technology in Preston Lancashire....which then became Preston Polytechnic and then in the 1990's University of Central Lancashire (UCLA)...so please don't get the two mixed ; neither will appreciate it ).Lancaster university is on a campus outside Lancaster. UCLA has a campus in Preston.

Next , The gradings of New university staff in England ;-

Lecturer/Senior lecturer ( Main grade)
Principal Lecturer (promoted grade)
Reader ( promoted research leadership grade)
HOD
*Dean of Faculty ( or equivalent)
*Pro Vice Chancellor (Senior management Deputies )
*Vice Chancellor ( Runs the whole shooting match )

('Professor' . conferred by the university . Mostly HOD and above, can be certain nominated Principal Lecturers in some institutions).


* Just to confuse not all New Universities use exactly identical titles at these Senior Grades. .........

No such thing as tenure or tenure track in the meaning of the American University system.

Research

There is no agreed ranking of research institutions. The nearest thing is the 'Research assessment Exercise' which you can find on line . It is undertaken by the Higher Education Funding Council irregularly, and is available in full published by both the Guardian and the Times. on line.

There is no agreed measure however a good overall measure which doesn't help with individual researchers or departments is the so called 'Research Power'. This is a score out of 100. the system used by 54 for displaying text stubbornly refuses to copy this quite quite sophisticated , interactive table . So you'll have to look it up....... BUT a taster simply using one , but perhaps the most comprehensive variable.

133 Institutions entered the last exercise Old and New Universities and some specialist colleges. Top of this variable ( there were about 5 or 6 different variables if I recall) came Oxford with a ranking of 1 score 100. Bottom came Swansea College of Higher Education with a score of 0.3. Central Lancashire came in 94th with a ranking of 3.0 (E and OE.)

If you have specific questions I may be able to help , but please email me....my address is available (when I forget to switch it off) on my 'aubergine' coloured postings. Its not the sort of thing you give public pronouncements on ..............

Has that been any help?

Dear prof n: My Suzy is so good I only spank her on her birthdays and would never had done so had I only knew. Now Suzy is in fourth grade and she has become a handful. I gave her her very first spanking ever for being bad last month. She has been good ever since. She read in the newspaper that spankings lower the IQ and she's mad with me for giving her birthday spankings. She turns 10 next week and wants me to give her a birthday spanking a day sooner while she is still 9. She said she read the chart and thinks the third spanking will make her smarter. Please advise.

School Paddling and Corporal Punishment - Facts, Figures. Unbiased Research, First-Hand Accounts.

This site (schoolpaddling.org) seems very promising however the home page appears to be a snapshot of the previous week. Im finding it impossible to access and Im not sure if that is a glitch on their part or on mine. TWP (prof n read its latest blog) gives more of a teachers perspective and maybe this site will provide a students one.

Here is a nutcase and I judge by his spelling of behavior as behaviour he is not likely from this side of the pond. The holiest one I have ever seen. It doesn't blister the hand but it sure must blister the bottom!!! The paddle is just one of his products. Be sure to see the rest of his product line.


Our Creedo:

Friends, The state of Discipline of Children in the Western World is in CRISIS!

We all see it every time we go to a restaurant, ride a plane, or go into a convenience store: Young people totally out of Control! And who's to Blame?
Certainly not the immature Youth, unready for unbridled freedom
with no experience to guide him. No, the Blame lies squarely with today's Mothers and Fathers who abdicate their Duty to Police the behaviour of their very own children!

And, WHY? Three Reasons:

For many, the Wisdom of the Ages has been chucked out
for Feel-Good but ineffective liberalism.

Other parents are unable simply due to their own weak Minds and weaker Wills
coming from having had no Discipline themselves.

Lastly, some merely lack the proper tools to complete their Obligations.
It is this third group that ChildRod.com seeks to assist.
By providing high quality and affordable Disciplinary Equipment,

We seek no less than the rescue of Modern Civilization.
Join with me in letting no mis-behaviour go unpunished.
Click below and with your purchases, we can turn the tide of chaos to Order.
Thank you and God Bless.


-Pr. Clyde




http://childrod.com/order.html

Hi American Way. In the case of schoolpaddling.org the problem is theirs not yours.

You can't navigate a single page site with no working internal page links or external links! An examination of the source code of the site indicates that there is only one link of any sort. That's the link at the bottom of the page to their 'forum' - which doesn't exist.

In short, it's a could do better! The domain name was registered last November and the page was set up in January 2009. I don't think it has been amended since then.

American Way, you certainly provide a correct diagnosis of the mental state of the originator of childrod.com - unless it is an elaborate joke, which I half suspect that it might be! Did you follow the 'Psychogenic Non-Epileptic Seizure Generator' right through to the page where you get the warning about the dangers of using it on children? It turns out to be flashing graphics not some fearful electronic device!

Interesting theory though that it is the edges that cause pain with a paddle and holes increase the amount of edge - hence the strange appearance of the site's speciality product!

You say:

I judge by his spelling of behavior as behaviour he is not likely from this side of the pond.

You could be wrong I'm afraid. The domain name is registered to someone in Cocoa, Florida, USA!

Hi American Way ,


I don't quite see how I can help poor little Suzy ! I can suggest that far more important than worrying herself into a state about about Professor Straus's work , might be to remember that systematic empiricism is frequently not worth a candle , where small statistical differences are blown up into huge mega theories !

Of course at 10 its a bit young to decide where she wants to pursue her studies, but she might like to bear in mind that I guess if .well I think you'll see the point .she were to score 3/100 for her homework ,( which I'm sure she wouldn't ) and come 94th in class....... well no one would be too pleased would they ?

Now New Hampshire might want better grade point averages than that!!!!!!! But maybe like me they 'forgot' the N in UCLAN ( Lancashire England) and though it was UCLA ( California , United States) in which case you'll get very different results.

As to the rest I'm no agony aunt , but as a poor ignorant Brit. I assume birthday spankings rank with liquorish tawses.........motorised tawsing stools, girls transported through time in private academies in places like Aberdeen and Scarborough ..... and the sort of thing that to say more would get me a bad name as a fun pester...........!!!!!! .

I judge by his spelling of behavior as behaviour he is not likely from this side of the pond.

You replied:

You could be wrong I'm afraid. The domain name is registered to someone in Cocoa, Florida, USA!

Spell checks don't like the British spelling so for someone to ignore that correction is peculiar. The author may have a British upbringing but over here. We don't have a monopoly on nutcases you know?

Hi American Way. You say:

We don't have a monopoly on nutcases you know.

Indeed you don't. One only has to visit a suburb of Nottingham situate not a thousand miles from where I sit typing this to attest to the truth of that statement!

You also say:

Spell checks don't like the British spelling so for someone to ignore that correction is peculiar.

I agree that one would expect a US citizen writing in English to have his or her spell checker set to English (United States). But not everyone puts material for a website through a spell checker. I very seldom do for instance.

I agree with you that the spelling of 'behaviour' would seem to indicate British antecedents, and it would be interesting to know if indeed the site is British despite the Domain name appearing to have been brought by someone in the US.

The site proprietor describes himself as Pr. Clyde, which I assume is Pastor Clyde. I stand to be corrected on this by anyone better versed in these matters, but I don't think Pastor as a title is a British thing. I would have thought that Reverend, abbreviated to Rev. or Revd., would be the British way, so that may indicate a US resident, if not a US origin. Also the goods on offer are priced in $ not in £. However, that is not conclusive evidence of a US site, since the means of payment is PayPal, which effectively is an International currency mechanism.

Interestingly, the choice of the paddle as the means of correction isn't conclusive evidence of a US site either. I believe that until CP was made illegal in all UK shools a number of private religeous schools here used a paddle for the correction of pupils, followed by the obligatory hugging and praying together routine.

Back in the days when I still watched TV I have distinct memories of the Headmaster of one such school, who I think was part of an organisation seeking exemption from the law for his and similar schools, being interviewed by a group of children about the school's methods. I have no idea what the program was, but the children certainly were not from the school concerned. By that time most UK children had no experience of school CP, as it had long been abolished in state schools, and these children were very curious as to what was involved. Although we were told he had brought it with him, the Headmaster declined to produce the implement concerned, but described it as being 'rather like a small cricket bat'. This was news to me, as I had no idea paddles were used over here, though of course cricket bats were most certainly sometimes used for ad hoc CP in some schools and some contexts.

Hi prof n. You say:

As to the rest I'm no agony aunt , but as a poor ignorant Brit. I assume birthday spankings rank with liquorish tawses.........motorised tawsing stools, girls transported through time in private academies in places like Aberdeen and Scarborough ..... and the sort of thing that to say more would get me a bad name as a fun pester...........!!!!!! .

I'm sure that you had your tongue very firmly in your cheek when you wrote that! I have absolutely no doubt that birthday spankings are a reality in the US. I also fear that they have gained a toehold over here. Like 'trick or treat' on All Hallows Eve, and so-called 'Proms', now an essential part of leaving ceremonies for pupils at most UK comprehensive schools, they will soon come to be seen as a long standing British institution by the young and ill-informed. Even at this early stage in their inexorable progress I fear that mention of them in this estimable Forum is unlikely to result in the showing of a red card and outing as a fun pester!

Hi Another Lurker ,

As this is the lighter side let me tell you a British paddle story, quite true. Now you will be aware that paddles have a secondary use in the Deep South, not just for punishment but as an object of skill in paddle spinning competitions.......I indicated a few days ago my miserable attempt when there ended with the paddle on my foot .

Well when miss f was visiting these shores, she was a quite experienced paddle spinner, and believe me , particularly with a well balanced paddle with holes you can do some 'mighty fine' juggling even spinning the paddle by the holes on/with your fingers!

Just occasionally at lunch time she would walk the corridors of school spinning this paddle , I don't know if in the States it has a deterrent effect , but here it just produced a curious group of onlookers.

Well at the end of one lunch she ended up by the music room from which I was just emerging. She stopped me to talk about a 'gig' later in the week , and as she leaned against the wall she continued to flick the paddle from hand to hand. Two of my friends were with me. as she was the Deputy head, they didn't know whether to go on or stop and wait for me , so they were, sort of rooted to the ground, eyes fixated on this strange paddle thing.

The warning bell went five minutes before school, but I remained talking for a further minute. Then she said go on , get to class, and gave me a very gentle backhand pat on the backside with this paddle to illustrate the point .........then she doubled over in laughter....I didn't see the joke, but questioned her later.

She told me that my friends had amused her, because during our conversation they remained transfixed by her paddle spinning, then , as soon as she she appeared to aim to pat me on the backside with it with it she said , you should have seen their little legs run.......talk about wimps!

I'm not so sure that PR is short for pastor. Public relations or Puerto Rico maybe but then again it could an abbreviation for professor as in prof n.

On anther matter: the improvised paddle of choice was a baseball bat found in the archives of Columbia Military School in TN.

At Columbia Military Academy the paddles used in corporal punishment were regulation baseball bats that had been planed down to one-half thickness on the business end. Unruly cadets were obliged to bend over, grab their ankles and look at the wall as the instructor stepped up to the plate.

As in Major League games, the batters seldom "bunted" opting rather for the "home run" hits. Coach Jones' massive size was taken into account as he graphically advised us. "When my board is finished with your butt you'll be a month stopping your nosebleed!" There was no doubt among the Cadet Corps, Coach Jones' was the Columbia Military Academy's Babe Ruth.

Hi American Way. You say:

I'm not so sure that PR is short for pastor. Public relations or Puerto Rico maybe but then again it could an abbreviation for professor as in prof n.

Ah, you've Googled Pr too I see! We'll have to agree to differ on it though. In view of the religious message at the foot of the home page of the site my money is still on 'Pastor'. And I can assure you that it isn't prof.n running the site! Despite his preference for paddles with holes (easier to spin?) his name isn't Clyde - or at least I'll be extremely surprised if it is!

I am happy to note though, that Pr. Clyde assures me on his home page that '15,000s beautiful Russian women' are waiting for me. When you get to my advanced age that sort of message is a great boost to the ego!

Hi prof.n. You say:

Just occasionally at lunch time she would walk the corridors of school spinning this paddle

Sure as he­ck beats a cane up the sleeve of the gown, the method allegedly favoured by Mr Ing of Bacons School when taking assembly or patrolling his domain!

Tell me, if spinning a paddle, when viewing the activity at 90º to the plane of rotation is it the narrow edge or the wide face of the paddle that is visible? I hope that makes sense. Short of diagrams I can't think of an easier way to phrase what I'm trying to ask.

Hi Another Lurker,

OK I'm trying to envisage what you mean. I don't have the advantage of Dr. Dominum's excellent white board graphics package or similar to hand. So let me see if the English language ( or my usage of it) is accurate and clear enough. I think what you mean , with a simple spin, is at 90 degrees to the 'performer the wide edge.- but of course rotating!

There are several ways of spinning a paddle depending on the shape and dimensions, and , importantly whether or not it has holes! ( oh and whilst on the subject I mean something sensible not like the crazy Pr. Clyde picture! I'm surprised in that case if he doesn't offend against trade descriptions? A wood paddle that appears 90% air and gel filled plastic handle!!!!I wonder what Renee would make of that ! ?)

Simple spinning can best be seen on Family guy the 'homage' to the film 'Dazed and Confused' , called 'Jungle Fever' ( Season 4 episode 13) . At the start of the film poor Chris is the object of a ' Fresher Hunt' at his new senior high , and gets paddled several times, including by mayor Adam West ( who is reprising the part of O'Banion in the original.- Yes just don't ask!) Here to the tune of ' no more Mr. Nice Guy, (Alice Cooper) you see him full spin the paddle and throw whilst so doing 'hand to hand'.

This is the simple trick during which I dropped the bat ! In this the paddle spins on its own axis and is thrown ( and usually caught, unless yours truly is performing ) hand to hand! If perchance you do drop it on your ankle/ foot, at least withdraw with dignity , and pretend it didn't hurt at all!

More advanced moves with a holed paddle include. Spinning the paddle by a hole and releasing it on a trajectory which allows to to catch spin and re throw as before. Flip the paddle from the handle, catch the top edge with the free hand and return in the reverse sequence. I understand some experts can throw from behind the back and catch at the front , although I have never seen this done.

Basically you integrate the moves and in between continue the basic flip and spin between hands. There are a few examples on 'Dazed and Confused' itself...if you know the film. I don't know whether that helps?

As I said when I saw it done in school here, very few people were aware of the real purpose of the paddle : so it had a novelty effect , but was no deterrent, Any use of the paddle would have been unofficial and unsanctioned, and she wouldn't do that as she led to policy to regularise all cp in the hands of the specified caners.

I first saw a paddle long before she came to work in my school , but I hadn't a clue what it was. I found it lying on a table in her lounge, and I just picked it up, looked at it uncomprehendingly, and poked the holes...She saw me doing this and said ' You haven't a clue what it is have you, Cat ? 'I admitted defeat ,' Give it here and I'll show you'. Suddenly without warning she pushed me gently down towards the sofa cushions , ( so my hands went out and down as a natural reaction) and she gave me one very little pop. ' See ? ' she grinned 'Now imagine if I put real force behind that, and repeated it !!!Get the picture!!! that's why it's called a paddle!!- oh, and the holes make it swing faster!and we normally do a minimum of three.....maximum of twelve ' ( It was the 70's !). .

Yes Ma'am.

Hi prof.n. Yes thanks, I think I have a better grasp of paddle spinning now, although I haven't seen, and am unlikely to see, the film you mention. I don't patronise the cinema, or the TV other than news broadcasts. Paddle spinning sounds like an activity for me to avoid. No one every paid me for manual dexterity, and I reckon there is considerable scope for mayhem and injury if things go wrong!

You say:

not like the crazy Pr. Clyde picture! I'm surprised in that case if he doesn't offend against trade descriptions? A wood paddle that appears 90% air and gel filled plastic handle!!!!I wonder what Renee would make of that?

Ah, but did you note Pr. Clyde's theory that it's the edges that produce the sting, and the more holes the more edges, and hence greater sting?

I was unsure whether the childrod.com site was a hoax or the product of a member of the Total Nutters Platoon of the God Squad. Despite several examinations I still can't decide!

Don't forget the Turing Theory: the body of the implement produces compression of the flesh (deep pain) whereas the edges produce shear and stretching (surface sting).

Thank you Alan Turing for your reminder above. I have to confess that I had temporarily overlooked that point. I find paddling a very confusing process anyway. I have been trying to get my head round prof.n's (or rather Miss F's) description of the American brace position without success. A re-read tomorrow is indicated I think, I have had rather a hard day!

Clearly Pr Clyde of childrod.com subscribes to your 'edge sting' theory. Since his paddle appears to have virtually no body to speak of he may also wish to avoid deep pain, the device supposedly being intended for use on children. Did you perchance look at the childrod site? I would be interested in your opininion as to whether it is hoax!

Hi again Another Lurker ,

Let me see if I can ease your day. Not having Dr. Dominum's 's drawing skills or kit. Let me try and describe how you get into the brace position from a standing start.....Promise not to rupture yourself trying!

You stand facing the wall but a couple of feet away. . Place your hands a few inches below chest level., well spread apart OK?

Now back away so that your back and arms are eventually at 90 degrees ( right angle) , or as near as you can to your hands .....

Ensure your back is straight, and for stability your legs are around 2 to 3 foot apart ( the exact distance doesn't matter. )

Arms to head one triangle, legs/butt another, and your back near straight....ok ?

The paddler stands in the natural position on the line and slightly to your side .you and ( assuming right handed, places their left hand in the small of your back without pressure. This ensures the swing of the paddle is restricted.

They raise the paddle to 90 degrees......(i.e. not above the shoulder, and bob's your uncle ,you hit the lower 'fleshy' part of the butt, well away from the tail bone...... so to speak! Believe me it works......too well!!

Now Dr. Dominums objection/worry to this is that , as I understand it , you might collapse forward and thus hit your head. The response to this by the 'black ops' military who developed this as a stress position is that the mechanics of anatomy and the physiological balance system don't work that way ..if you try to put your hand back , (the 'JS' position I discussed yesterday with AW - which is easy with either free hand over a chair, or even elbows on desk) then you will through the reaction of autonomic balance stand upright rather than collapse. They say it is physically impossible except after long ( hours) of stress to collapse with two hands releasing at once.

More to the point you also cannot as I find it get your hand to reach back anyway without losing the position entirely , because your arms are stretched and thus the administrator would have plenty of warning you were moving out of the brace.......

Miss F assures me that in her 30 odd years teaching and paddling , she never had one kid who either collapsed, or tried to reach back .if they tried you would know at once as your free hand in small of back would be disrupted and you wouldn't give the lick.......Renee seems to feel the same......

Actually, Miss F ( good job I haven't named her or I couldn't exemplar this)! even managed to paddle her own daughter this way, which was remarkable, because she was like a human eel , and unlike me didn't consent gracefully, and certainly didn't believe in cooperation.! ..But even she was stumped once in this position..... ...getting her there was another issue entirely!

Now hope you see and are not on your way to the ER wit a sprain or strain ........!!! Hope that helped???? Probably not !!!

The American brace position was actually applied two weeks ago in TWP by Renee on a "MIRANDA" an eighth grader. I agree with prof n it's an undignified position but it is an undignified position to find yourself in the first place. The hands against the wall and in 90 degree angle with bottom protruding are what I could gather from prof n posting is the posture. I would imagine it would be less severe in 2009 (posture and paddling wise seven being the most I've heard). prof n is a great believer in it as a way of reducing the likelihood of injury.

Oddly enough my fellow honorary lifetime member of this estimable Forum asked what college teaches CP (implication thinking people don't paddle). She attacks TWP for not dignifying that qusetion with an answer. I must give credit to Paula in one sense. It raises concern but not to her liking. New Mexico (among the handful of Southern states where it has fell totally out of favor) required a knowledge on how to use the padddle and I'm sure TWP would agree with Colin Farrell on that account in Corpun. I hardly think it would take a course like how to cane Kartika. Let's just say it's the school of hard knocks. Seriously, a principal shouldn't let a teacher sure any paddle or swing any which way and schools shouldn't vary much at least within its own district.

Doctor Dominum expressed concern for falling. Injuring the tailbone die to movement of the torso is the worse case scenario but the hand becomes more likely to be hit if a child is given a fulcrum to spring off of and tries to cover his or her bottom. I'm sure the instruction isn't to stick your butt out (crude) but simply told how far to stand from the wall and to keep your feet slightly parted (bonum prolis) perhaps at shoulders width. The 90 degree angle raises the same concern in me as it did for Dr Dominum. The punishment should from the pain imparted by the paddle and not from the posture. Don't try it at home but at gym.

IMHO for years the over the desk or chair seemed to be the trend but the brace position has never fell totally out of favor (obviously Renee). It's instinctual to protect your bottom with your hand. Canes have been known to hit both but not a paddle without ill effect to the hands. If a desk is available the teacher should ask the child politely but firmly to remove whatever is in the back pockets then to bend over the desk with forearms totally on the desk and place palms flat on the desk and to look straight ahead. Keep a careful watch of hands and tailbone and paddle at a 90 degree angle and not give long intervals between swats. Teary eyes and a surface bruising (dissipating within 48 hours) is what it should amount to. That's what the grandparents and parents think what's happening but don't ask an ambulance chasing lawyer or an anti-CP zealot.

If they don't or find they can't abide by the instructions within reason (not too much resistance to be safe)the paddling should be dispensed with and the alternative (they chose not to accept) would be applied. The teacher shouldn't give the child another chance to choose a paddling over the alternative for any further misbehavior meriting one.

Read the student handbooks and you overwhelmingly find CP and the word OR following it. Read the Arkansas Teachers chatboard under high school tardies and you will find the same.

Hi prof n and American Way. Thank you gentlemen for, respectively, your excellent explanation of and background to, and your further information on, the American brace position. I may even pluck up courage to try to get into it - next time I'm down at the climbing wall where there'll be trained first aiders and quite possibly the odd experienced physiotherapist on hand! Interestingly it sounds not unlike part of a stretching routine I've seen enthusiastic youngsters include in their warm up routine for climbing. If I try it I shall have to be careful that no one thinks I'm doing anything as modern and trendy as warming up!

I think this should be posted in this thread. North Carolina has corporal punishment for students but not for sleeping in class they punish their teachers with forms the American Way. If I taught there I wouldn't wake this kid up.

Sleeping in Classs Discipline Report

Cane Fu. Doctor Dominum can you take a joke about your impending retirement from one lifetime honorary member to another?

Everybody is Kung fu fighting,
Your mind becomes fast as lightning
Although the future is a little bit frightening
If look at your life then youre arriving,

Part I

Part II

A Jovial History of Queensland School Education. I'm sure Colin Farrell probably has posted and for certain this is not new to our historian and house doctor: Dean Clarke and Doctor Dominum.

Down Under Fun

You may recall that in August on this thread there was discussion of Dr. Murray Staus's work in this regard. In my Scottish 'dig' I unearthed the article below which permanently holes this research , to my mind, below the water line

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/nhshealth/Smacking-and-children39s-IQ.5682280.jp

Well, yes. This survey might show:

"If you're a mother who tends to spank your kids then its likely that their cognitive development will not be as good as the children of a mother who doesn't spank."

But spanking isn't a controlled variable here. The mothers haven't been divided at random into two groups, one told never to spank, and one told to use spanking where necessary. So all sorts of other things might have been going on.

There might be relationships between cognitive development and behaviour (and hence susceptibility to punishment). There might be social factors affecting both a mother's tendency to interact with her child (hence aiding development) and her stress levels (hence affecting her tendency to use physical punishment). And so on.

What this survey doesn't show is that spanking impairs cognitive development.

Hi Alan Turing: Could you do me a favor and apply the Turing theory on the plusses and minuses of the paddling shown below? Would it be fair to say that the girl would suffer less bruises and pain than the boy? What factors would play into the differences. Lastly would six swats be considered safe given in the manner shown between 40 to 50 seconds into the video for both boy and girl? From a layman persepective it doesn't seem cruel ot unusual.

Thank you. American Way

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=13331@ktvt.dayport.com

Hi American Way.

This Everyman film amuses me. You don't REALLY call those swats do you? This is a bit of a joke. I'm not a hard liner by a million miles, but those are maybe twenty degree swings at best! And no force .....or momentum. They look to have as much effect as a lining up tap with the cane.

On kids of that age. these are little love taps at best. OMG my friend would swat you that hard in fun,if she happened to pass you in the corridor with a spinning paddle in her hand.

You cant even seriously compare than with Nancy or Shorty......perhaps we should just show them the paddle? This was televised, neutered set up for showing in the blue states. Even Paula should have difficulty with opposing that!! Of course every idiot would vote for swats of that calibre set up. come on poor old Shell(e?)y didn't get that .....

I'll stick my neck out and say Renee et al would paddle far harder in elementary!.

I wish I could have shown you the instructional video my 'brace' slide was taken from, but the copyright owners won't classify this site as educational purposes alone. That show three real swats , given a la TWP but they would really sting.

Of course what is shown safe. no hands would fly back ....there's mo reason for them to , but try taking real swats, and different criteria apply.!!!


Perhaps I have misinterpreted American humour once again,( I can't spell it your way ! , I was told that in Texas!!!)??? But I know this I didn't laugh during my paddling , I swore! And was worried I might get extra for that , but the Southerners are understanding that way , to swear , yell etc. shows them , so I'm told ' We're achieving our object!

prof n I do think if the Principal was paddling the girl the way he was hitting the boy and if it was five times that girl would be getting it as hard as Miranda got it from Renee. She was an eighth grader getting a wake up call. Nashia would be getting five swats with the same intensity (by sounds) as Nancy got three but that was for what amounted to criminal assault. But only they would know unless we were told.

I was amused by the swat team but with only one oval paddle (I suspect used on girls). The Principal is gone and so is CP so what comes of those paddles? The taxpayer has a right to know. I love the way the girl says booooring (she wouldn't be boooored if Renee was doing the paddling) . Peg with her brats wanting to eat candy that made me laugh. Her kids probably need a taste of the paddle more than candy.

I do think if it was for a grave offense and the cameras weren't there they would be hitting a little bit harder. A child is a minor and there was a clear qustioning that they were volunteering (legal consent). If they actually showed Shorty or Nancy Guillen being paddled it would be a turn on to some and a marginally consenting (bargaining) action. If it was seen it wouldn't be what Paula Flowe makes of it and if a Principal paddled a teacher that would be sexual harassment and borderline porn.

I would like to call readers of this estimable Forum to the attention of what I found amusing from a previous posting on different sides of the stick. If you haven't read the article it was a good one. The tawse proof knickers thread got me to thinking about the 23 year old Malaysian girl quoted.

Students who got the rod every so often had to find a way out - or, at least, a way to lessen the intensity of the punishment.

Jane Lim, 23, remembers the days when she took an anti-pain toolkit to school, comprising toothpaste and glue.

We used to smear them on our hands just before we went in front of the classroom to be caned. They worked quite well in reducing the pain.

The paper noted that Jane Lim was an assumed name. I would imagine she didn't want her teacher to have a second go at it.

It makes me think that it might not be beyond those girls in the 9/12 3:15 post from Malaysia model caning may be playing a prank. I take it from the lack of replies everyone thinks it's genuine? Their blog went out of business and had a short run as would it seems the abolishment of CP for girls. Some of those Malaysian girls faces are something else. Surprisingly given their culture there was no loss of face there. They all didn't get keno (a word for a lottery over here) Those scamps!!!

BTW. IMHO. Kartika's caning will take place within the next 14 days or it will be called off completely. The idea being the delay was not her fault and she has repented sufficiently during that extended period. Todays scoop is the prison says its ready and awaiting Syriah court order and are all denying that the delay is due to outside pressure. September 28th the sentence was upheld and October 25th there was the demonstration and now the woman prison official may have forgotten everything she learned in her course in the duration. She was a no show for the dummy demostration.

American Way:

I thought those video paddlings were quite mild. The paddle used on the boy was obviously much larger than the one used on the girl, though without having measurements it's impossible to give an accurate comparison of volumes (and hence, assuming similar density of wood, of the weights). The girl's paddle seems to be moving faster, and that has an effect on the result. I wouldn't bother about shearing at the edges: shearing is important with a cane, but that would be moving much faster.

I'd say that they were both quite safe -- but remember, I don't know anything about physiology.

Hi American Way. Five sad faces in a row! You certainly bid fair to being my best pupil ever! Now how are things going with the smilies in email? And what became of that disciplinary matrix I'm eagerly awaiting to demonstrate that I do still have a useful function on this estimable Forum?

You say:

BTW. IMHO. Kartika's caning will take place within the next 14 days or it will be called off completely.

You haven't covered the most likely outcome, that things will simply continue as they are now. That way no one loses face. Very important in some cultures!

Re: I never gave that perpetual stalemate much thought for Kartika. There was something in yesterdays paper in the Star Online that makes me think it's going to happen soon. It's like no one wants to take the blame for the delay.

Back to the matrices: There is a former high school counselor about ten years older than Renee from Mississippi who convinced me that tobacco and alcohol should be treated by guidance for first offenses with parental conference because they are more likely doing it at home than at school. She said the matrices were a good idea for big schools because there were too many teachers with too many rules.

She was paddled in seventh grade for copying home work and lying about it and said it was done in the corridor and said she cried and couldn't sit right until she went home. She had to bend over and grasp her ankles but the teacher gave her as much time a she needed to recover and when it was as if nothing happen and didn't call her parents. She never got in too much trouble at home but she would not want to know what trouble she would be in for if they called home.

She will have her job back when President Obama's stimulus package kicks in next year. The economy is really bad here.

In high school kids behaved in the classroom but outside the coaches paddled. She never got in trouble because she was so small she got in no ones way.

Kartika Stalemate

The real alcohol and tobacco problem from the teachers, not the social perspective is bringing the contraband on to the school premises.this is often financially induced, even if it cant be proved, and the aim of the paddle is pure deterrence, nothing else.

The girl you refer to sounds to have reacted as I would expect to three or more licks properly given , and of course grabbing ankles is perfectly safe, but possibly the most undignified position for a girl.

She wasn't concerned about her dignity but a student (worse if it were a boy) passing by or being overheard in the corridor like Nashia in a more private setting. Hanging a paddle from a wall (they did that at her school) and having students over hear a paddling (which happens when paddled in a corridor) is not a good way to achieve deterrence. Having your parents called in for a tobacco or alcohol for a first time caught shpould suffice as a deterrent. prof n I agree peddling is a different story and however hard to prove is a serious offense as well as not following through prevention classes and should involve CP. Are we on the same page? Over a desk or chair or grabbing ankles as second best to brace position? It's your call for the student handbook. I do value your opinion.

I'd go with grabbing ankles . Very safe , no possibility of hand in the way. Desk ok but you can rise , ( tailbone) and chair , well i don't know why , but twisting round seems to be a problem . I'm only going on my friends career, and experience.....

Agree about the problem of a corridor. as you can see my friend outlawed that in the 70's ( the memo in CP part 1 , and paddles on display are in many States now banned by law....As for people passing and hearing , well always in private of course, and no internal windows!!!!

It is very interesting that your lady friend shows the civility of the Amish people you spoke well of before from Turkeyfoot if you remember. The asking them politely to take what they have out of the pockets and even trusting them to give a medical reason why they shouldn't be paddled and double checking if they have a parental DNP are ways of saying you messed up but we are going about this on a way that will respect your dignity. I wouldn't let my daughter go back to her classroom like Nashia no matter what she did and prof n I'm sure there is no one more on the same page as we are in our admiration for Renee but I wouldn't be anything less than disingenuous if I didn't share some fraternal (not paternal although I'm old enough) correction. If Nashia wants to tell the class that Renee is a hard paddler (not a bad thing for the kids to know) she can tell the girls by allowing her to regain her composure and not have to show it. Maybe there was no one around so it might me a moot point. I trust it was the place most out of sight and hearing available. Being in high school it may be the last time she will be paddled and she might appreciate that little courtesy when she revisits that painful situation that she got herself into. You don't have to coddle her but in the future it might be nice to have a tissue. I'm thinking like a Dad although our daughter just finished college.

And Nashia, the roughest girl in the school was reduced to tears and clutching her rear as she was sent back to her class.


Turkeyfoot. Give the student ample time to gain his/her composure before returning to class.

Everman: Anthony Price was defending a practice in an urban area where corporal punishment is rapidly vanishing. He was trying to show it wasn't brutal. I think the boys knew he got a mild one which in fact he may do at times. IMHO he paddled that student milder than he would if a student was guilty of a gross violation of the school code of conduct and I think as Alan Turing observed with less velocity than the girl's paddling.

He paddled with a very inappropriate paddle she was paddled by a reasonable intensity. Considering the size of the boy by the time he turned 18 he probably would have to be hit very hard for it to be classified as a punishment. The mostly girls interviewed showed the ineffectiveness of CP when the shame/pain is minimize by their choosing that punishment. I suppose those who found it less pleasant than detention were not in room so unfairly represented. They must have some in detention. the showed In a sense it was the principal saying see CP isn't that bad when if it isn't that bad why do it in the first place.

Asking minors if they were willing to give a nationwide viewed sampling unless they had parental permission to be on the show was not a good idea. The boy saying he wanted no part of Mr Price makes me think he would not have vounteered if he knew he was going to be hit as hard as he must have been on at least one Occasion. Do you think something like this should happen on TV in Australia Dr Dominum? How would it have been handled within the context of the documentary recently taped in your school?

Hi American Way,

On this one we read off the same hymn sheet. absolutely no need for any humiliation , and another thing , to pick up one of Dr. Dominum's points, Some students can be far more sensitive to shame than others, and therefore, it is necessary to ensure after the 'event' you rebuild a connection that says' I don't hate you- this wasn't personal'.

My friend had a sort of 'collection' of bon mots for this situation , some of which worked , some less so . This first one was universally used by her . OK? No bad feelings....hey say so if there are ; Are we cool ? If no say so, don't y'a let it fester.Others included, time to get back on your horse cowboy.....; maybe next time you'll try to shoot a bit straighter.....

And I agree, never send the kid back to class distressed,. The only exception might be for certain types of bully, where shame in front of peers could be necessary , to stop them appearing to reinforce a 'hard' reputation..

The no hard feelings statement may be heard in the immediate post paddled state sound like you want me to say yes so you will feel better and I'll say whatever you want because I want to get away from you as quick as possible before I lose my self control I'm not comfortable with.

Can someone please post the pre paddled appeal post for the life of me I can't find it. I can't believe I didn't favorite it. It provides a check list for due process from give me one more chance to prove I didn't do it to please take in consideration a reduction due to mitigating circumstances. It something worthy of the courtesy found in Turkeyfoot.

I'm not too sure about the bully thing. Some will gain status as look at me he gave me the best he could and I'm tougher than him and some will lose status because they are more vulnerable. Plus there is lex talonis when maybe there should be more turn the other cheek (pun not intended)