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Male Teachers Punishing Girls

July 4 2009 at 6:39 PM
Declan 

 
There has been a great deal of doubt about the issue of male teachers administering corporal punishment to girls in years gone by.

On another forum dealing with all subjects this is a posting in response to a thread entitled " Acceptable in the 70's" Most of the posts are about non political correctness, fashion etc. but a few raised corporal punishment. In reply to a post about sadistic teachers from a man, a woman wrote the following.

" OMG! When I was 14 we played an April Fool on our typing teacher by hiding in the cupboard till 12 o'clock,she was angry and sent us 7 girls to our Year Head, HE told us off then smacked us on our bums!!! I didn't think anything of it at the time but now I think - THE PERV. And yes there was some sadistic gits who you knew just loved whacking the kids hands with a ruler"

The lady does not give her age but is from the North East of England. She is a prolific poster mainly about TV soaps.

A couple of things though. How did SEVEN girls hide in a cupboard, and I would have thought that 14 year old girls would have realised that it was a bit off for a male teacher to smack their bums .Still, I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Title edited


    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Nov 18, 2013 6:16 AM


 
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Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 4 2009, 11:44 PM 

Hi Declan. You are quite right to raise little doubts about the above account, even though you are too much of a gentleman to dismiss the story out of hand.

Anything beginning 'OMG' or 'LOL' is fiction and should be treated as such! On the other hand, anything commencing 'IMHO' a contraction often used by Another_Lurker, bears the stamp of absolute truth! happy.gif

 
 
Emily McPherson

Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 4 2009, 11:59 PM 

Hi Declan, great to hear from you again.

Like all your postings, very interesting and humorous.

I know that this is a long shot, but have you ever considered the possibility that these 7 girls were the same 7 girls who were about to be tawsed by the Scottish senior mistress but somehow managed to plug into the power grid of the nearby nuclear power station thereby creating a very powerful electromagnetic field which resulted in them being transported through time and eventually into that rather large wooden structure.

Also the female teacher who discovered them was a rather low form of life in my opinion. Why go to the trouble of sending them elsewhere when she could have just as easily smacked their bottoms herself. Anyway it was a great joke and those girls should have been congratulated rather than smacked.

I actually believe the story because most people posting on other forums usually do not make stories up about school corporal punishment, especially if they attended school during the time when smacking,even of girls was quite common.

 
 
Amelia

Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 12:55 AM 

Hello Declan: great message.

I disagree with Lurker. The story is believable. What reason would that woman have for telling porkies?

However there was no reason for the girls to be punished since it was all done in good humor. The female teacher should have just laughed it off. Those girls were being very innovative.

Even though those smacks were probably very mild, the non-female teacher should have not touched those girls. Do you think that there is any chance that the woman concerned or any of the other girls might visit this forum and give a more detailed version of the events? Is there any way you can post on that other forum that you mentioned in order to encourage same?

Good bye for now.

Amelia

 
 
Miss Nagano

Male Teachers Smacking Girls

July 5 2009, 2:11 AM 

Greetings Declan from Nagano.

As always you have posted a very entertaining story.

Most of my friends, 90% of whom are British expats, agree with you that the story is highly believable.

Speaking for myself and all of my friends, we were only ever smacked by female teachers, however it is possible that there were some very low forms of non-female life around back in the day, who thought is was okay to smack a girl's bottom.

Those girls should have reported that git straight away. As for the mystery of how seven schoolgirls could fit into a cupboard. Well either it was a very large cupboard or some mysterious forces were at work. We could be talking X-files here.

Never the less it is always good to hear from you. Keep up the outstanding work and sayonara for now.

Your very humble correspondent

Miss Nagano

 
 
Nina

re: Male teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 8:09 AM 

Excellent posting Declan

However you may have inadvertently opened up a Pandora's box of unexplained phenomena. How did those 7 girls get into the cupboard? Was it the same 7 girls mentioned in a previous posting? Are you psychic? The mystery deepens. This could be a modern day version of "Picnic at Hanging Rock"

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 9:21 AM 

I think I have got as much information as possible about the seven girls in the cupboard. I am certainly not going to post anything on that forum about this forum.The lady has in fact been on again, this time about a flasher near her school. She was never flashed herself but some of her friends were ( she does not specify whether they were the same girls from the cupboard). She also thinks that some of her friends were physically abused as children, but it being the 1970s no one mentioned it.

Another amusing tale from the same thread. A chap wrote that boys used to compare the number of stripes on each others bottoms ( from caning)when changing for PE, and the one with the most was considered to be the hardest boy in class. The same boy used to win every week until it dawned on them that he had a naturally striped arse and had never been caned.

I do remember comparing slipper marks with another boy after we had both been slippered in PE, in fact many boys used to do this and were quite proud of it.

 
 
Heather

Male Teachers Spanking girls

July 5 2009, 9:24 AM 

Congratulations Declan. A very informative posting.

I also agree with the other forum members that the story is genuine. I also agree with the statement that the female teacher was a real wowser and should have had a sense of humour about a very funny joke.

As for that Cretan who decided to smack those girls, well don't get me started. As to whether the events described qualify for inclusion in an episode of the X files, well I will leave that for others to judge. Keep up the good work

Heather

 
 
Trainspotter

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 12:09 PM 

Well my wife was given the slipper at her school in the early 80s 2 times she recalls! There was none of the nosense that is somtimes talked about in the way of over the bare bum ect. It was simply a case of bend over and whack whack whack. She was even slippered 1 time in the sceience lab for knocking over one of those bunsen burners. She hated that as it was mixed comp school and the lads really took the micky out of her after the teacher had given her the slipper. Good it happend though as today she is well er ... should we say she dont mind getting her bum smacked happy.gif Each time it was over her skirt with her bending forward grabbing a desk. And each time by a male teacher. From what she has told me the science teacher didnt hit girls as hard as the boys who he would really whack hard but he was in her a words a bit of a perv as he tended to give the slipper more to the girls that the boys. For sure not PC these days and im glad its not allowed any more i would kill any teacher would tried to lay a hand on my kids happy.gif but as a memory of the past especially from my wife I find it funny I suppose ... oh the good old days happy.gif

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 7:58 PM 

Heather said at 09:24 on 05 July 2009:

As for that Cretan who decided to smack those girls, well don't get me started.

I have re-read Declan's post several times and I can see no mention of the male teacher who did the smacking being from Crete. Clearly Heather is trying to add some racial element to the story which was not present in the first instance. And please don't tell me that she was merely misspelling cretin as in that context cretin would not take a capital 'C'. Just what have you got against the inhabitants of Crete Heather? I think we should be told! happy.gif

 
 

Re :Male teachers spanking girls

July 5 2009, 10:28 PM 

A.L.

I recall from my exposure to ancient history that Crete was the mythical (?) layer of the Minotaur, in the labyrinth beneath the palace of King Minos wasn't it ? Perhaps that's the link ?

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 5 2009, 11:57 PM 

I think you have it, prof.n! The key to this whole mystery! Crete was indeed the site of the labyrinth of Knossos, the lair of the Minotaur, beneath the palace of King Minos. Further there were seven schoolgirls involved in this escapade. The Athenians, after their defeat by Minos, were required at intervals to provide seven young men and seven young women to be sent into the labyrinth as food for the Minotaur.

Clearly the whole story recounted by the lady on Declan's forum is an allegorical account of this ceremonial sacrifice of young women to the Minotaur. The cupboard represents the labyrinth, the seven schoolgirls the seven sacrificial young Athenian women, the typing teacher represents King Minos, since it was on her account that they went into the cupboard, or rather the labyrinth. Quite why the gender of King Minos was thus transposed is not clear, but this sort of thing is not unusual in allegorical accounts.

And finally the male Head of Year who does the smacking, whom Heather, remedying an omission by the original story teller, informs us was Cretan, is clearly the Minotaur. The smacking obviously represents the young women being consumed by the Minotaur, the fact that it is 'on the bum' being symbolic of the sheer awfulness of such a fate.

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 6 2009, 5:16 AM 

A_L prof.n

Brilliant stuff about Crete. I'm afraid my ancient history is a bit limited so I'll take your word for it.

The forum I mentioned has now got a separate thread purely about caning and other forms of punishment. It has attracted about 100 posts in a day. Most are either from the anti smacking brigade or men relating their own experiences of the cane.

One or two are from women with interesting tales to tell. A scottish lady recalls how she was strapped, by a male teacher, aged nine for smudging some artwork. She says the strap was 1/4in thick and had five thongs and really hurt. Her hand was red for the rest of the day. In a later post she refers to the strap as a tawse, though she does not specify if it were a McRostie. She is very much opposed to CP.

On the subject of cupboards, I have just remembered that a girl at my school once hid in a cupboard during a lesson. She would also have been 14 and she got another girl to tell the teacher that she had been hurt in a motor bike accident. The ( female) teacher did not seem unduly concerned for her welfare, probably realising that it was a wind up. The girl soon got bored hiding in a cupboard and emerged, rather embarrassed as no one thought it was funny.I think the girls concerned had to visit the headmistress but I never discovered the outcome.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 6 2009, 8:46 AM 

Hi Declan. An interesting story about the 5 fingered tawse and its effect. I have seen it suggested that for a given weight and width of tawse the pain inflicted increases with the number of fingers into which the striking end is split. I have no idea why this would be so. If it is so one wonders if there is an optimal maximum number of fingers after which efficiency decreases with further division. Sadly we never covered really useful stuff like that in Physics! sad.gif

I would have thought that in classroom behaviour terms concealing oneself in a cupboard during a lesson would have counted as a fairly serious misdemeanour and one assumes the young lady you mention, together with her accomplice would have encountered a fate at least as severe as the seven girls in the labyrinth cupboard in your previous posting.

I don't recall any classmates taking to cupboards, but I do recall a music master fleeing into a storeroom attached to the classroom and refusing to come out. The poor chap was completely unable to keep order and we baited and tormented him with a degree of cruelty that only savages like teen-aged boys are capable of, culminating after several lessons with him taking refuge in the storeroom. He never reappeared at the school after that. I hope he found peace somewhere, perhaps in a girls' school!

And finally, I would remind you that as a member of this estimable Forum it is your duty to seek out and pass on any further items of interest from the new caning thread you mention for the benefit of people like me who are too lazy to find such sources for themselves! happy.gif

 
 
Halfpenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 6 2009, 9:21 AM 

Even though those smacks were probably very mild, the non-female teacher should have not touched those girls.

I truly don't understand this and I see it quite a lot here. This belief that male teachers (at least I assume that's what a non-female teacher is in the absence of large numbers of androids) were doing something wrong by inflicting corporal punishment on girls.

I can understand why people might think it's preferable that it be done by a female teacher but there's a difference between it being preferable and there being something wrong if for some reason it doesn't happen.

When I was at school, as I've indicated, canings were handed out by our Headmaster to both boys and girls. I don't think anybody thought there was anything wrong with that. This was the 1990s and we weren't completely naive. We knew there were men who liked school girls in a way that they shouldn't. But we also knew that he wasn't one of them. We trusted him and I've never heard anything to suggest that we were wrong to do so.

We trusted out teachers and because we trusted them we had a good relationship with them. If we hadn't trusted them, I don't see how we could have had that.

In the primary section of the school, the cane wasn't used but there was corporal punishment - smacking and spanking. Most of the time it came from your class teacher. Most of the primary school teachers were women, but there were a few men around and some of them smacked or spanked just as some of the women teachers did. If your class teacher happened to be a man and you did something to get your bottom smacked, he was allowed to do it. And again, I don't think anybody thought anything of it. They were trusted to do the right thing and act in the right way and if they couldn't have been trusted to do that, they wouldn't have been in the classroom in the first place.

I do know that not all teachers are trustworthy - anybody who reads the newspaper sees reports sometimes of teachers who've done the wrong things with kids. But it seems to me you either trust them or you don't. And if you don't trust them, how can they do their job. And if you do trust them, what's the problem?

I can see why it's sensible to have a rule that, where possible, certain things are only done by teachers of the same sex as the student involved although I'm not sure where the line needs to be drawn on that. Until we were in grade three, boys and girls changed for PE and sport together under the supervision of the class teacher and I don't see how there was anything wrong with that either. And even after that, boys were often supervised while changing by women because there wasn't any real choice (I don't recall it ever happening the other way around, but because female teachers outnumbered men, it was probably easier to avoid it happening). I can see why you want to avoid that happening when you can but I don't see why it's wrong when it doesn't work out that way.

And as a woman who was both smacked and caned by 'non-female' teachers as a girl, I am offended on behalf of those men - those good and decent, honest, trustworthy men who did so much for me and for my friends and family - at the suggestion they did something wrong by doing something that was part of their job, and was expected of them and approved of by our parents and, probably, by most of us.

It's not like limiting it to your own sex removes all risk anyway. I thought about becoming a teacher and I'm a spanko. Odds are, I'd never have wound up in a job where I was allowed to do it, but if I was, I'd be more likely to be enjoying myself smacking a girl, than your average man would.

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 6 2009, 9:37 AM 

A_L

I will keep you all informed of any further revelations on that caning thread. I would prefer not to give the name of the forum on here for various reasons, not least the fact that fun posters might infiltrate it. Most of the posts seem genuine and it would be better to keep it that way

The girl who was tawsed aged nine almost got another strapping at senior school. The chemistry teacher was intending to tawse the whole class but agreed to let off those who had done well in a recent test. This girl got 75% so she avoided it, but about 20 others did get it, including girls and from a male teacher.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 6 2009, 12:12 PM 

Hi Declan, I knew I could rely on you! happy.gif You are very wise to keep the identity of the other forum to yourself. If we can keep the 'fun' poster infestation confined to this estimable Forum there is at least the chance that it will run out of non-male names and thus destroy itself!

 
 
prof.n

Re: Male Teachers...a plea for equality

July 6 2009, 3:57 PM 

Well having returned from my excursion into the ancient world, -oh! and before going further, mea culpa for my last posting ...of course the Minotaur, doesn't live in a cake ( unless he had a very sweet tooth)....layer should of course have been lair......I promise to post and copy it 100 times......!!!!.- Still it does go to prove my Greek master had a point when he said all the world's stories, and all life are contained in Greek tradition.........

Halfpenny makes some very good points. , and ones with which I can empathise. However they stretch the topic thread, but I beg indulgence to explore them a little....
.
As those who have read many of my postings will know my school had the reverse problem ( although imposed not by choice, but by circumstance)..- teenage boys being caned by a woman. She found no problem , of course, given her background in the States ( which I will comment on further in a moment), but the School did find it 'advisable' to offer all boys the chance to be caned by man if they preferred.

To my surprise many did......despite a clear groundswell of opinion that within the 'management team' a rough approximation as to those who were allowed to cane, she was probably the fairest, and certainly the most thorough in listening and investigating. both sides of an issue. Her punishments were never given without explanation, or in anger. These were not my views , but those held generally in the school.. So the unwillingness to embrace this aspect of equal opportunity always puzzled me.

As I said she hailed from stint teaching in Texas ( she was a dual national , with US academic qualifications,) ending up as a VP before coming to the UK. Apparently in Texas in the early 70's there were no hang ups about who paddled. It was a co-ed High School system, and women were as comfortable paddling boys as girls, However it seems that over the last 30 years, two things have happened there. Paddling, where permitted, has become closely regulated, and certainly the women dealing with girls has become , certainly from some posts on this forum , a virtually routine assumption. Perhaps American Way can help whether this is reciprocated today (ie male-male only ) or is the choice with the teacher/student.

Of course we all see the sexual issue, but I take halfpenny's point, it is almost insulting to the teaching profession to assume sexual motivation, after all isn't that even more likely to be the case in terms of same sex relationships in the hothouse environment of boarding schools? In any case by the 70's here no boy would be caned in a state of undress ( any approximation to this would occur in the boarding houses at night, so again more likely to be subject of same sex abuse.....)I admit there is a greater problem with 'spanking' (UK idiom), but this is in respect of young children , and it always seemed to me to be more sensible in those schools where a mild implement was used , which eliminated much of the problem .

Of course there is the issue of size and weight, but if either paddling or caning is done properly it is not weight that determines the pain, and anyone who thinks the issue is just one of pure size / brute force , isn't fit to do the job!. Again in my case everyone recognised that our deputy caned as hard as the men , as a squash player ( accuracy) and a hard driving tennis player as well she more than made up for not being built like a prop forward.

It seems to me that there is a good case for equality , as has been made in the past by Dr. Dominum Indeed it seems to me to be the only starting point in a modern society. Of course we should allow for individual choice of same sex if desired by the student , as indeed I believe in many probably most cases corporal punishment should be one option out of a range of available punishments . Parents should have an opt out in state schools , and also one in which the child's view should when old enough be sought and given due consideration.

It seems to me that in many ways the arguments for corporal punishment in the UK were substantially lost though concentration on the exceptions .physical and sexual abuse, combined with an unwillingness by heads to give parents in the state sector the right to opt out (for fear of diminishing their personal power), the larger debate on punishment and reward , positive and negative reward systems etc., was sidetracked.

Funnily enough the real lesson from this has not yet been learned, and part of the reason for the inexorable march of indiscipline in our schools doesn't depend on the cane or not the cane, because despite one's views on the efficacy of this approach, there are many other disciplinary techniques which can succeed : but rather on HOW the debates are handled. The opponents of the pc brigade haven't learned yet how to mount a successful defensive campaign, so soon ..bye bye all sanction except the nuclear option of exclusion/expulsion.........

Obviously the abolitionists will disagree, but it seems to me that we should whenever possible use a mixed economy approach, no one answer suits every child or situation., and we should not use tecniques where there is good evidence that in a particular case it may do more harm than good,but we should aim to do the best for each .

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 12:40 AM 

here

In the states it is not all that unusual for a female principal to paddle a boy but less so on the secondary school level and even less so than in the days of coeducational Catholic schools run by Sisters. This may prove worth persusing on the issue of gender, class and education. Moderation in all things including moderation is the American Way.

 
 
prof.n

Male teachers a plea for equality.

July 7 2009, 2:19 AM 

American Way,

Thanks for the post and the link, which raises some interesting points , in a relatively structuralist framework.

I'm particularly interested in the transference, or I guess the author would prefer transposition, of the maternal role for women teachers into the classroom, but the concentration on the predatory role for men, rather than a paternalistic model . The boys socialise better in this framework than the girls, who are always recognised as potential sexual actors in a way boys are not.


If you reverse the framework, and place the ideological structures and processes of authority and punishment in female hands the authority 'cues' change , the existing process loses its essential fluidity ,, and I would agree transmutes into a far less democratic form because the formal structure of power is more crystallised in the individual ( feminisation) than in the institution( traditionally patriarchal). . In a sense then in a such a situation boys may benefit from female teaching in that , if nothing else it challenges the set role plays and preconceptions of the male patterning of education.. For example , a boy facing an interview the Head or Deputy for a disciplinary infraction, probably has a fairly good idea of the line the interview will follow, the boundaries not to cross and the verbal and non verbal clues as to the outcome. Replace the male with a female and the structure and function of the process changes.

Even in my school the number of boys who went into an interview expecting a certain line to be followed, only to find themselves completely unprepared for a less covert, less frontal assault on them , but a framework of questioning which depended on negotiation and mediation , which completely baffled and defeated them

Equally I know not only from the school example where the female deputy head used to become frustrated that boys generally seemed unable to read her body language. and other non verbal clues, which is a major problem I have seen this replicated in Schools and Universities from that day to this. Boys and frequently Male students will ride straight through a veritable barrage of non verbal warnings , and are then , surprised and even angry or hurt, when the women in charge sees their actions as disruptive or unacceptable. Essentially they are less intuitive and tuned into different social frequencies. For many years my deputy in university management was a lady I use to her annoyance joke that she had to be my director of intuition and feelings, if we were to make rounded decisions.

Certainly my first teaching post in a school was with an independent girls school teaching to the old 'Special' level and Oxbridge exam papers in the upper sixth. My work colleagues at the University joked it must be a really cushy number ( remember I was only five or six years older than than the girls in the class)...in reality it was quite daunting, as my non verbal cues were effectively scrutinised every minute of every lesson,

It took time to break down barriers and ratchet down the social 'threat' level to one where learning could effectively commence. Without that trust, which actually involves a sustained pattern of predictability between both the students and teacher , there is no basis for the learning culture to take hold , and predominate the social relations of the classroom..

So even in the US system which is massively committed in the public system to co-ed , there is a problem of masculine and feminine learning cultures and ideological structures which flow from that. . Boys will on this model accept a female authority model better than the reverse with girls.....but even in the case of boys there is still a real learning gulf between their experience and role models against the feminisation of the eduction process
Dr, Dominum of course has raised this issue with the role of female year tutors and the equality laws. It would be interesting to know whether or not these teachers adopt their management styles from their essential socialisation ,and thus define their roles personally, or whether the school ideological framework , which I expect is quite patriarchal , dominates the actors and prescribes their roles.

And now, as promisedm I'll not digress further from the topic.........

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 2:55 AM 

here

New York Times 1907 had something to say about women teachers flogging boys.

Thank you computer corner for teaching me how to post links. Thirty years ago the Sisters of No Mercy knew nothing about suffering indignities but the students did.

 
 
Alan Turing

A session in the cooler

July 7 2009, 8:23 AM 

According to that extract from the 1907 New York Times:

In 1872 or 1873, when corporal punishment was given up, we had two methods of redress, expulsion or elimination by a process of refrigeration.

Is that really the American Way?

 
 
Nero

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 8:31 AM 

Yes, a very good point, prof n, about the "sustained pattern of predictability" needed for actual learning to take place. As a university teacher in America some years ago, I was in a flirtatious relationship with a student where nothing actually happened, but there were plenty of jokes and threats, which were quite enjoyed by both parties. However, all this became entirely detrimental to the process of education, since we both came eagerly to anticipate a situation where the work was not done properly, rather than one where it was. Sad to say, but a certain amount of flatness and dullness is a requirement of educational professionalism.

 
 
prof.n

Re Male teachers........

July 7 2009, 12:07 PM 

Spot the deliberate mistake.

My posting after 02.00 has a gremlin..

Para 4 line 2 should of course read

'covert , less frontal ( which is meanigful)

Not

'less covert, less frontal' ( which is meanigless, indeed actally tautologous!)

i.e... the male approach is to be direct and 'in your face' whereas they found the female approach more circumspect , but ultimately more devastating as they lost total control of the situation, and no longer understood their role.....

Apologies again : note to self. Learn to type AND proof read !!!

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 12:57 PM 

If you click my link in my last posting you are blocked out of the archives by the New York Times. I have a theory. If too many people access an article they block it for so many days which my posting may have precipitated. Maybe someone from computer corner can tell me why I cannot copy image & paste here but can on Word Document so I can share the relevant portions here. Alan by refrigerator did they mean left out in the cold as outside the classroom as in an in school suspension or outside the school building in the winter which in some cases might beat warming their fannies to teach them that the city pays for the coal. It would work in the North where it is needed and the South has the global warming option. Diplomacy doesn't always work and that's why we have other forms of military deterrence used as a last resort. The analogy limps somewhat but it's worth walking with for a bit or as TWP says walk a mile in my moccassins. Those who have purported to teach like the prof and the Doc and myself to some extent with some degree of credibility seem to favor SCP. I wonder why?

 
 

Male teachers and Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 1:25 PM 




American Way,Alan Turing , Nero

A. W. -thanks for the link which is fascinating given the date. Alan Turing's point is apposite...I wonder, I am no etymologist but is this the origin of the word 'cooler' in a disciplinary context, makes sense...as I assume we all agree refrigeration probably means some form of in house suspension/isolation? Of course isolation was at that time seen as the 'humane' alternative to cp, the idea of spatial architecture having a psychological impact was implicit in the Benthamite panopticon project , to isolate the sinner in the constant gaze of society, which reached a high point with the design of late 19th century penitentiaries.

Again if so , plus ca change, plus la meme chose. I received only yesterday a suggestion in respect to 'isolation' in the form of a workbook for students to complete when in 'segregation to teach them the error of their ways. I found it so unbelievable , particularly its suggestions for how to handle 'clever' kids who decide to 'isolate ' themselves. Hasn't anyone realised , in a violent or threatening school a bright wimp may actually feel happier and safer in isolation than in class?

Unfortunately it was sent with some form of copy protect which prohibits me cutting and pasting , or reposting , otherwise I intended to post a section on the site. for comment. If I can work out how to get round the problem I will do so.

Finally Nero , you are right on the button. In one of my university teaching posts my office was located next to a waiting are for students. If I was out or not available they had perfectly adequate , even comfortable seating , together with a drinks and snack machine. However there was this one girl, who had a rather fetching and demure 'butter wouldn't melt' expression which covered an extremely clever, cynical and calculating brain! Mainly to gain brownie points with other students in the one upwomanship stakes, if I was out , she persistently managed to persuade someone to let her into my room to wait there.As she was a regular client(!) wanting to ensure alphas in everything, I got more than a bit fed up of this, ( although I couldn't determine whether it was a porter or a colleague who was the patsy concerned) but on one occasion I challenged her. She replied that she meant no disrespect (!!!???), but over the years she had spent so much time waiting outside her headmistresses study, for a woman who was always late, that she had got bored with waiting areas., so developed a 'personal coping strategy' I didn't really mind , did I? But at least waiting here she could read a book from my shelf.......

Now firstly I couldn't in a million years see any of may male students , no matter how bright or dim , having the barefaced cheek to act like that....but to rationalise it as an acceptable psychological and educational strategy.... Moreover she steadfastly refused to rat on who had let her in !.(ok so she's got a sense of honour!). Guess I pitied her headmistress......She graduated with a 'first' of course!!!

Three years later I hired her as a research assistant to work on project which required some quick thinking on your feet and occasionally a little 'creativity' in the name of educational research. She was outstanding, just one niggle - an appalling timekeeping record!!!! Oh but she was a happy bunny , we gave her an office and a set of keys.......now she could make others wait!!!!.


 
 
prof.n

missing link......

July 7 2009, 3:26 PM 



American way,

Pleased to report the New York Times is back on the link again! I can access it easily through my btinternet brouser, but the Firefox steadfstly refuses to give other than a blank page.

Perhaps its as simple as they went for a coffee break,,,and/or darker.... as an East Coast purveyor of news, doesn't trust anything with a 'Fox' of any kind in the name??!!!! We could always ask Mulder and Scully to take a look...... ? What about the first amendment doubtless we would cry!!!!????? Well Sarah from Alaska would anyway!

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 3:29 PM 

I was walking down memory lane when my wife received an invitation from a mother of a bride at work and I had to go to another dreaded wedding reception. Lo and behold they sat me next to a classmate of mind that was in Catholic school with me for eight years. I hadn't seen her in about forty years. What she remembered of me was a science fair project on planaria; she hated worms, my messy desk and my always locking horns, with two of the sisters, including the mean eight grade teacher. I was way ahead of the class and was on the wrong page when asked to read aloud so they would send me out to clap erasers until the others caught up. She has a masters degree in education and was a goody to shoes who was a loner who never married.

Maybe I steered the conversations but she said half the boys got the stick but only a handful of students escaped the ruler. She agreed with one of the girls that all of eight grades was a hostage situation and named the students that were acting out the Stockholm syndrome. We were all brought to the lavatories (s strange word today) together and a girl, poor thing, had to receive a Doctor's note to go frequently. The Nun read the doctors note about the girls bladder control and the boys tormented her by saying "PU" for stink. She agreed that you would only get into more trouble if you complained to your folks. My father of blessed memory would say there are 52 cards in a deck so don't you go being a joker. She did say we had screwed down desks and chairs and lived by bells with 52 kids in a classroom and we were being prepared to develop the skills to work in the textile mills right through the sixties and that we were living in a time warp. As an aside this same Nun would touch a boy and he had to block her hand as they became perilously close to his genitals. She laughed when I said I would rather be molested than beaten. My wife and all at the table laughed. Things said in jest are often true. I told her (a few years older unbeknownst to some)I like older women. I paid for that comment and perhaps deservedly so.

She was asked at a teachers' conference if there was a teacher she admired and she could only mention our sixth grade teacher in our eight years. It meant something to her that she was the only lay teacher we had (two in the entire school)and how that teacher was a retired public school teacher was in sharp contrast to the unqualified Nuns. They dug up the hardwood floors and screwed down desks and chairs and put in moveable furniture. The Nuns shed their habits and became more qualified with smaller classes in catholic secondary school but with only two lay teachers and they were both men. I'm becoming boring to myself and maybe sooner for other readers but the next time I'll post it will be about their relationship with the girls although somewhat off topic it may prove interesting to some so stay tuned.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 7 2009, 8:27 PM 

The intellectual standard of the debate in this thread has gone right off the high end of the scale, hardly surprising considering the recent contributors involved. I am well out of my depth and will therefore take refuge in offering to address a couple of technical questions raised by the participants
  • American Way - Maybe someone from computer corner can tell me why I cannot copy image & paste here but can on Word Document so I can share the relevant portions here.
  • prof.n - Unfortunately it was sent with some form of copy protect which prohibits me cutting and pasting , or reposting , otherwise I intended to post a section on the site. for comment. If I can work out how to get round the problem I will do so.
in Computing Corner asap.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 25 2009, 7:13 PM 

http://books.google.com/books?id=3P4TAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA157&dq=corporal+punishment+girls&lr=

Boston Medical and Surgical Journal By Massachusetts Medical Society, New England Surgical Society 1868

I wonder how woman would feel about the female stereotpypes that prevailed a century and a half ago. School age girls don't seem as docile and gentle as they did back then. As often is done Teacher Chat Board yanked its MS thread on CP probably because of a troll. The disparity in numbers between middle school boys being paddled versus girls and the lessening of that disparity on the high school level discussion ended the much to the consternation of one of its posters. Statistically there could have been a change because of the many schools who ban men from paddling girls. The data has been collected and stored somewhere as in Alvin High School in Texas the hometown of strikout record holder Nolan Ryan. I wonder how many countries have named a school after a living athlete just a few years after being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Ryan ranks up there with schools named after Jackie Robinson (Black) in Brooklyn and Roberto Clemente (Latino) in the Bronx.

As a footnote because of racial prejudice Jackie Robinson honed his skills in the Minor Leagues in Montreal. Racial tensions still exists even with Barack Obama as President as witnessed by an arrest of a Harvard professor friend of Obama by the Cambridge Police Department. Obama's two daughters are being tended to by Michelle Obama's grandmother, Marian Robinson, and Michelle's professional College Basketball coach brother who was no stranger to corporal punishment and their grandmother makes sure they make their bed and clean up after the dog. Statistics show that Blacks are on the receiving end in school because they're more likely to get a "butt whuppin" as Oprah Winfrey called it in a show.

She is pro corporal punishment in the home and anti corporal punishment in the schools judging from her show and the same cannot be said of Dr Phil. These shows might mean something to some readers of this estimable Forum. There are other Americans and their shows are broacasted beyond our shores. That's the American Way.

SOS computer corner I couldn't display the link in a shortened form as I've finally learned how to do. Is that due to being the format of Google book. Where I post so frequently I don't want to widen the thread. It's as annoying to you as it is to yours truly!!!



 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

July 25 2009, 11:53 PM 

Hi American Way

I note your problem with regard to the link. I will investigate and report my findings in Computing Corner asap. We certainly don't want you having to revert to causing viewers to rush out and invest in 32 inch monitors! happy.gif

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 15 2009, 7:56 AM 

I've been extremely busy over the last three weeks or so so while I've ducked in here and posted a few times, there's been quite a few messages I've missed responding too. I'm going to endeavour to get to some of those today if I don't get interrupted.

The reasons I have been so busy though may be of interest here. There's been two main reasons for it.

The first is that for two of the last three weeks, we've had a documentary television crew in the school filming 'day-to-day-life' of the school, interviewing staff and students, and generally being nosy about the way we operate. This is being done for a television documentary series planned for screening sometime next year which will be looking at the culture and practices of a number of Melbourne's independent schools. For anyone who is familiar with the documentary series King's School from a few years ago, it's meant to be in similar style to that, but looking at a group of schools rather than just one. Having these people in the school has been something of a nerve wracking experience at times, trying to ensure they get a true and accurate view of what we are like, without some sort of scandal erupting.

The second reason is that, as many people here know, I'm getting very close to retirement now (we're still working out the details on that - my plan was to finish teaching at the end of this year and then run out my unexpired long service leave until whenever that made my 'official retirement' date. It now looks like I will actually come back for the start of next year, finally completing teaching duties at Easter next year, in order to cover other teachers who will be taking up new positions on my retirement and who need to have their own long service leave covered - regardless, I will either, for all intents and purposes, finish teaching in either December this year, or late March next year... a prospect I view with a great deal of ambivalence (I am looking forward to retirement but I truly love teaching. I love my wife more, however, and it's been made clear that if I am even contemplating trying to pull any tricks to stay on past Easter next year, I'd better plan on doing so as a single man!). There's quite a lot of things to think about in the lead up to retirement and one thing I've started doing in earnest recently is looking at my library - I've amassed a lot of books on various educational issues over the decades and I'm having to decide what to keep, what to gift to other teachers, what is worth selling, what is best burned, etc. Not surprisingly, a fair chunk of my collection are books concerning school discipline and looking at one of these, I've been prompted to write in this thread.

The book concerned is a fairly sizeable American book called the School Discipline Desk Book written by Eugene R. Howard and published by the Parker Publishing Company of New York state in 1978. It describes itself as 'Presenting proven solutions to virtually every kind of discipline problem, this authoritative volume gives today's school administrators powerful help, and shows how to improve discipline dramatically.'

The book discuss corporal punishment - a practice that the author clearly disagrees with but which he obviously felt he needed to discuss due to its widespread legality at the time. In this book, corporal punishment is being discussed in terms of its legality - that's might quite clear in the book - it's in a section called 'Handle Discipline Problems Legally' and is one of 'eight legal issues now restricting the actions of school officials. As yoou go about the day-to-day task of administering discipline in your school you should be thoroughly familiar with these issues.'

So the book is discussing the corporal punishment of children in schools from a legal perspective and discussing the legal pitfalls the schools needs to worry about. And here is what it has to say:

Corporal punishment in schools is illegal in some states. In others, the courts have held that corporal punishment is legal so long as it is not unreasonable and excessive. It is unclear, however, whether an administrator can administer corporal punishment if parents object and refuse to administer the punishment themselves. It is also unclear whether due process must be followed in administering corporal punishment. An administrator may be held criminally liable if the punishment is held to be unreasonable or excessive.

We are opposed to corporal punishment both on practical and philosophical grounds. It is, we believe, inconsistent for a principal who hits kids to ask them to stop hitting one another. Furthermore, we seriously doubt the effectiveness of corporal punishment as a means of helping pupils modify their behaviour.

We realize, however, than you may not agree with this point of view. So, if you feel that you must use corporal punishment, we suggest the following procedure:

Be sure that the student has been warned at least once that the specific action he is being punished for would result in corporal punishment.
Be prepared to document the fact that other means of punishment have been used and that corporal punishment is a "last resort."
Notify the parent that you are going to administer corporal punishment.
Administer corporal punishment against the wishes of the parent only if you are willing to accept the risk of being sued.
Administer the punishment in the presence of an adult witness.

Consult your state's school code for information on what your state laws require. State laws vary considerably on this topic.

My point in quoting this is to point out one fact - that in 1978 in a book on school discipline, a book that disapproved of corporal punishment, a book that is specifically discussing what a principal needs to do to minimise potential legal problems associated with the use of corporal punishment - there's no mention whatsoever of any suggestion that a principal should not administer corporal punishment to a child of the opposite sex. That is, there is no suggestion that there might be some sort of special problem with a male teacher spanking a girl.

A lot of people posting on this forum seem to me to be of the opinion that there's something 'self-evidently' wrong about the idea that a male teacher might physically punish a female student. They seem to think this is an obvious problem that everybody must be aware of - and perhaps more significantly must always have been aware of.

I've been teaching a long time now. It's only in the last couple of decades at most, that we've been particularly worried about the idea of teachers sexuality interacting with the lives of students.

Talking locally, where I am.

In 2009, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as acting in a highly suspicious manner and as, at best, an absolute fool for exposing himself to the risk of an allegation of inappropriate behaviour. If he escaped sanction for doing it, he'd both be being given the benefit of every possible doubt, as well as being very lucky.

In 1999, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as running a bit of a risk in exposing himself to an allegation of inappropriate behaviour. As long as he had a good record though, of always acting appropriately towards his students, he'd be unlikely to face too much in the way of formal sanctions, but people would probably have found his actions somewhat uncomfortable and would wonder why, if such punishment was necessary, it couldn't have been administered by a female colleague.

In 1989, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as having done something that people might make a joke about. But assuming the girl had clearly done something to deserve it, and assuming the teacher was not one who'd ever given anyone a reason to suspect he couldn't be trusted around girls, it's unlikely most people would have thought much about it. Teachers were people you trusted around children to do the right thing and you needed a damned good reason before you even suggested that this particular teacher was an exception.

In 1979, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as doing his job. You might query the policies of the school in not having a female teacher administering such punishment or for that matter in allowing it to be used on girls at all, but teachers did what teachers had to do and if a girl did something that justified corporal punishment, she only had herself to blame for the outcome. Again, if this teacher was one who'd already rung alarm bells in some other way, it might have raised some eyebrows. But otherwise, it wouldn't have.

In 1969, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as giving a naughty child exactly what she deserved. These girls wanted equality. They could hardly complain when equality carried a sting in the tale. As for the idea that the teacher might be doing something inappropriate - we're talking about a child here, yes, we all know these children, these teenagers like to think they're all grown up, and ready to be treated as adults, but we all know that's absolute nonsense. Let's not dignify their silly ideas by worrying about issues like that.

In 1959, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as taking a normal and accepted approach to correcting the behaviour of a naughty child. Full stop. That's it.

Ideas change. Standards change. But it's only a fairly recent phenomena where we've been more or less expected to view school age children as sexual beings, and therefore as potential targets for sexual predation. Yes, we were naive about such matters in the past in many ways, in denial about it, perhaps - because there has always been a small proportion of teachers and other people in positions of trust over children who have been prepared to act inappropriately towards them. But the thing it has always been a small proportion, probably a tiny proportion. Even today when we are less naive, and far more aware of the potential problem, it's only a tiny fraction of teachers who do the wrong thing. It just gets a lot more publicity and so less than 1% look like a bigger problem than they are.

Back in the early 1970s the first time I had girls in my classes, and those times when I caned them - three girls on two occasions - I never once, even considered, acting inappropriately towards those girls. The idea just wasn't something that was part of my thinking. I now believe that another aspect of my thinking - the ideas that lead to me insisting they be subject to the cane, and to me using it on those occasions was somewhat wrongheaded, but at the time I really did think I was acting appropriate and taking an appropriate line. I never dreamed of doing otherwise.

Once I had caned those girls and I realised I was especially uncomfortable with the idea of caning girls... I didn't really know what I could so about it. That illustrates how alien this modern attitude is, in many ways. If I'd gone to a senior colleague and said: "I don't think I should cane girls, because I'm worried that there might some sexually related issues in me doing it," I'd probably have been ending my career. Because people just didn't discuss such things - and anyone who did was obviously a pervert.

Most teachers wouldn't have seen any problem. And those that did, wouldn't dare talk about it for fear of being the ones who wound up being seen as the threat.

Besides, even my feelings were very vague and I can't be sure what they really were. And even if they were related to my libido, I never, ever considered doing anything different because of them. Unless we're going to move into Orwellian areas, it's what a person does that matters, not what they think (or might think).

Today, I once again have senior girls in some of my classes. 17 year old girls.

Objectively speaking, I can easily see that they are, physically, mature young women. Emotionally, and in terms of their apparent mental maturity, some of them are fairly close to being 'adults'. Statistically, I can hardly be unaware that it's likely that at least some of them are sexually active to some degree.

Guess, what I see when I look at them as their teacher in my classroom?

I see children. Schoolchildren. Just as much as 17 year old girls, as I do with the 12 year old boys I had in the period before.

Why? Because I'm a teacher. And that's how I have to see them. And it's the only way I want to see them - because anything else is me not being what a teacher should be.

The vast majority of teachers, I think, see these kids in the same way. They are children. We are adults. And never the twain shall meet. And even those who don't always think the way they should - I think that most of them would still never, ever, act on those feelings even if they have them.

I'm not saying male teachers in the modern world should be administering corporal punishment to girls. As I've made clear, I don't really think corporal punishment is a good idea with girls anyway based on up to date research, but even if I did, I'd still believe it's only sensible in the modern world, in the modern climate that such punishment should be in the hands of a female teacher. Teachers, like Caesar's wife, must be above suspicion. An abundance of caution is not a bad thing on this issue.

I'm just saying though that it is the modern climate, and it is being especially cautious and it is about perceptions more than anything else.

And it wasn't always that way. And we shouldn't pretend it was. And we shouldn't judge the teachers of the past purely by modern standards, because modern standards are not written in stone, but in sand.

 
 
ThomAq

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 15 2009, 1:57 PM 

Very well put Dr.Dom. I note a tinge of nostalgia in your post, as you accurately and succinctly lay forth the attitudes towards teacher's and their disciplinary practices. I think it would be an intersting subject:
A Social History of teachers and Attitudes towrds them. ?
It seems to me that if a male teacher were to cane an adolescent female today, and if it were legal, he would nevertheless suffer similar howls of indignation that are reserved for those who commit sex crimes. Though in the past claims that male teachers who cane girls bottoms were 'getting off' on it would itself be seen as a shameful thing to suggest.
I think we tend to idolise children today in ways that would be seen as dangerous in the past. In the past, in our society influenced by a ristian ethos, children were born sinful.Christian morals had to be taught or
the naughty brats would get up to mischief etc and a large role of the schooling process was a moral one as well as a results orientated one CP was seen as a natural means to achieve this end.
I wonder if that perhaps this was the thinking behind someone like Halfpenny's headmaster when he caned. I cannot be sure of course, that is an assumption though fromher posts the impression I gleaned was of a real traditionalist.
kind regards, Thom

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 15 2009, 11:00 PM 

Thank you Doctor Dominum, a most thoughtful and interesting post. You say:

And we shouldn't judge the teachers of the past purely by modern standards, because modern standards are not written in stone, but in sand.

This is absolutely true, but so easy to forget. I think that some people here, including myself on occasion, do not give appropriate consideration to this. I have always tried to set my accounts of corporal punishment during my own schooldays in their historical and social context, but even so I have perhaps allowed my view of what occurred to be influenced by today's standards.

You establish above that, in your area, it is not so very long since it would have been perfectly normal and indeed expected for a male teacher to administer corporal punishment to a schoolgirl if such punishment was felt to be merited and the male teacher had the responsibility for administering it. I do not think it would have been very different in the UK. You go back to 1959, which was near the end of my schooldays, but certainly in England the situation you describe for 1959 would have held for the preceeding 12 years when I was at school and long before that.

You seem to say that in your area a male teacher would be very unwise to administer such punishment today, even if policy and law permitted. In the UK, where all school CP has been banned by law for more than 10 years any such occurance would clearly be illegal. I personally believe that it should remain illegal even in the very unlikely event that school CP was ever restored here and applied to both sexes. That does not mean that I think it was wrong in the past, just that given current thinking it would be foolish to burden a revived CP option with such a contentious element.

Whatever retirement arrangements you come to I personally hope very much that you will continue to post here afterwards. You would be very sadly missed if this was not the case. However, it may prove difficult timewise. I can assure you that if you think you are busy now, just wait until you retire! happy.gif

And finally a couple of questions, which I fully appreciate that you may not answer for fairly obvious reasons.

First, you said at 10:10 on 30 July 2009 in the Teachers Who Paddle thread:

There's strictly speaking no reason why they could not film a caning and broadcast that, if we allowed it (ethically, they should have the consent of the boy involved, but legally, they apparently wouldn't even need that). I can't see how it could possibly happen in a way that isn't artificial to the point of being totally inaccurate as a representation of how things really work (or at least I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen), but, hypothetically speaking, if I didn't allow it, would I also be guilty of covering something up that it could be argued is in my interests to cover up.

Objectively speaking, part of me would also like to see a caning accurately shown on television mainly because so many people seem to have quite an exagerated, sometimes even warped idea of what is really involved, and quite a few of the opponents of corporal punishment seem to be very willing, in my view, to exploit children in order to make their points, secure in the knowledge that people on my side of the argument aren't in a position to reply in kind


The operative words above are doubtless 'I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen'. However did the extraordinary happen and after your visit by the film crews is it possible that Australian viewers may be enabled to see what is involved in a caning in a boys' school where it is properly regulated and accepted as part of the scheme of things?

And second, you say in your post above:

Today, I once again have senior girls in some of my classes. 17 year old girls.

Does this arise through a resource sharing arrangement with a neighbouring girls' school, such as you have described as existing during the 1970s, or is your school going co-ed, starting, as is often the case, with the Sixth Form?

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 16 2009, 8:25 AM 

Very well put Dr.Dom. I note a tinge of nostalgia in your post, as you accurately and succinctly lay forth the attitudes towards teacher's and their disciplinary practices.

Nostalgia? I suppose so, in a sense. I think teachers used to be far more respected than they are, and I suppose I would find it easier to live with that loss of respect if it really seemed to be based on something real - but for the most part it isn't.

One of Australia's newspapers today - Brisbane's Sunday Mail - contains an article with the title Predatory teachers wreck lives. The article reports that 57 teachers in Queensland were investigated over the last three years for inappropriate behaviour involving students.

Of course, even one such case is deplorable. But there are 30,000 teachers in Queensland. 57 of them being investigated in three years... that's 0.19% of teachers. It's less than 1 in 500 teachers.

It's a tiny proportion. But society acts like it's not.

I wonder if that perhaps this was the thinking behind someone like Halfpenny's headmaster when he caned. I cannot be sure of course, that is an assumption though fromher posts the impression I gleaned was of a real traditionalist.

From what I know of the situation at Halfpenny's school, her Headmaster was placed in a pretty awkward position - deliberately hired as part of an attempt to lure male students into an all-girls school that was going co-educational because of his reputation as a pre-eminent teacher of boys, he insisted he needed to have corporal punishment available to deal with boys, but the school council insisted that there be no gender discrimination in the school as a basic principle of co-education. They also insisted that caning should be entirely in the hands of the Headmaster and not delegated.

I remember looking at the position myself all those years ago, and considering whether or not I wanted to put in an application - they were looking for a mid-seniority teacher from a boys school to leap straight into a senior position. It was quite an attractive proposition in a career development sense.

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 16 2009, 9:11 AM 

You seem to say that in your area a male teacher would be very unwise to administer such punishment today, even if policy and law permitted. In the UK, where all school CP has been banned by law for more than 10 years any such occurance would clearly be illegal. I personally believe that it should remain illegal even in the very unlikely event that school CP was ever restored here and applied to both sexes. That does not mean that I think it was wrong in the past, just that given current thinking it would be foolish to burden a revived CP option with such a contentious element.

To a great extent, I agree with you. My only caveat is I'd want the reasons behind it to be stated extremely clearly - that if it is being done out of a desire to exercise extreme caution, say so. If you are going to base policy on the actions of a tiny minority of teachers who abuse their positions of trusts, then say that is why you are doing it. Otherwise, it does create an impression that their numbers are much higher than they are.

Whatever retirement arrangements you come to I personally hope very much that you will continue to post here afterwards. You would be very sadly missed if this was not the case. However, it may prove difficult timewise. I can assure you that if you think you are busy now, just wait until you retire!

I'll have to see how it works out.

The operative words above are doubtless 'I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen'. However did the extraordinary happen and after your visit by the film crews is it possible that Australian viewers may be enabled to see what is involved in a caning in a boys' school where it is properly regulated and accepted as part of the scheme of things?

No, they did not film a caning. I think they'd have liked to, but the boys were actually extremely well behaved while the film crew was in the school, and we had far fewer disciplinary issues of any sort.

They did record me reprimanding a couple of boys, they interviewed me (and I believe others) about the use of the cane, and they did video record part of the leadup to a boy being caned, before I decided this was heading that way and decided to shut the door. I believe they may have recorded from outside the door (honestly I'd be surprised if they didn't) so they may well have overheard something. But even if there were some potential situations where I might not have objected to them filming, with this particular boy, it would not have been a good idea (he's a natural performer who would have played up for the camera I think - he was starting to head that way when I shut the door).

Just one note on this, having read a post another person made to the forum. I'd just like to point out that even though this documentary is planned for screening next year (ie, after I've stopped teaching and have left the school), they were filming the parts of it they are going to use from this school this year, when I am still here. I suspect it is actually likely to be pretty obvious who I am once this series is aired to anybody who sees it and wants to try and work it out.

Does this arise through a resource sharing arrangement with a neighbouring girls' school, such as you have described as existing during the 1970s, or is your school going co-ed, starting, as is often the case, with the Sixth Form?

Closer to the former than the latter, but...

We're looking to have a much closer relationship with our sister school (and vice versa, of course). Those who support co-education see us as moving towards that, the rest of us don't see that as a desirable goal, but are not opposed to the idea of having some degree of integration. For me (as a senior staff member at one school, and a council member of the other), it's a matter of trying to get the 'best of both worlds' - remaining as single sex schools at our core, but being flexible enough to share resources easily and freely, and also to get together on various things when there's an advantage to doing so.

At VCE level (that is the final two years of school) we have a number of VCE courses that neither school would have enough students to run by themselves, but which by allowing girls to attend here, or boys to attend there, gives us the option of running them. For my subjects, and a number of others, we've decided to offer 'top stream' classes where the best students from both schools study together. It means we can have higher ability level classes than either school could manage by itself (taking our top 10 and their top 10, creates a significantly higher standard class than either of us get with our own top 20 - and combining the second group of 10 in both schools into a second class of 20 also seems to have created a higher achieving class at that level - these highly capable kids can no longer coast on the coattails of the brightest and are reaching higher levels than they did before.)

Very few schools here are likely to go fully co-ed if they haven't already done so - but most are looking for ways to have more integration. We're lucky enough to be close enough to our sister school that even though our campuses are distinct, senior students can transfer between us with careful timetabling (it has caused some comment by residents of a previously fairly quiet suburban street who now need to deal with the 'thundering herd' a few times a day).

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 16 2009, 4:30 PM 

Sorry Doc, but even 0.19% is too much. These are people in a position of power and trust with children. How would you feel if one of your pupils moved & went to school under the power of such people?

Let's not pretend you lot are all like it-it was never that way & we all know it. There were dishonourable exceptions in your schooldays & mine & long after, but it's the few nonces that have always attracted the headlines, I'm afraid, not the caring people like yourself.

The important point about girls is that most, though not all, people began to realise something around the 1970's or 1980's about the caning or slippering of adolescent girls. Girls had started to mature younger, and that means starting mensurating earlier, too.

There was something of a move towards caning on the hand for girls at this point, on the basis that bottom-caning meant things could literally get messy "downstairs" for the girl. Besides which, making someone wait a week for a caning is also a sort of cruelty few wished to practice, so hands out looked a good move.

Unfortunately, studies soon showed that even hand canings for girls if it was their week "on" were not a good idea. Apparently, women's skin sensitivity in that week goes up on average 231% generally, and about 490% on the skin of the erogenous zones.

So, even ignoring any potential sexual turn-on for the victim, the agony factor was clearly greatly exacerabated. Even if we disagree about caning in principal, you and I know it is meant to hurt, otherwise it cannot have a deterrent value.

But that sort of revelation rather puts inflicting pain into the sadistic category. And with the rise of equal rights etc, you now know why public and political opinion swung right round against chastising girls.

Passing back briefly to the numbers games on the number of public schools still possibly using it in 1997, I seem to remember the feeling was, if the keep-it lobby had announced 170-odd boy's schools still used it or retained the use of it, instead of around 200 public schools, including girls and co-eds, they might have won the argument.

But letting the minute numbers of girls' or co-eds slip out brought the feminist lobby down on them like a ton of bricks. Which is very probably why the info was leaked as it was leaked.

And do keep us posted re your retirement; Another_Lurker is right-I've never been busier since last December, even with Sarah's recovery going so well. I'm sure Mrs Doc has her plans even better advanced than yours already!


Steve

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 16 2009, 10:15 PM 

Thank you Doctor Dominum. As always, a most comprehensive and interesting reply. It sounds as though the documentaries on the elite schools of Victoria may include a scene equivalent to the notorious TruTV Nancy Giulen/Principal Halter invisible paddling - a shot of a closed door with muffled sounds of a caning. I hope that your lad, despite his dramatic tendencies, was not tempted to play to the gallery and rub his bottom as he departed afterwards! happy.gif

Seriously, it must have been quite difficult to plan and manage the visit of the film crews whilst keeping the school running smoothly. I assume that the school will retain some editorial control over the version finally shown on TV?

The arrangement you are implementing between yourselves and your sister school sounds to me to be the best of all worlds. I firmly believe that academically single sex education is best for boys, and the evidence seems to point to it being best for girls too. However the provision of subjects, and levels of competition, which would not otherwise be possible by utilising co-ed mode for some classes must be a very good thing and to the benefit of both boys and girls.

I take your point regarding the need to be honest about the reasons for any restrictions on the administration of school CP. It is indeed a very valid one. My reason for saying that male teachers should not punish girls has nothing to do with the remote possibility that a very tiny minority might find that task pleasurable rather than a necessary duty. That is a risk which I think is potentially present whether the punishment involved is single sex or opposite sex, and for both boys and girls. That risk, very small though it is, should be controlled and indeed eliminated, by the regulations and authorisations which must surround a valid school CP option.

My reason for considering that male teachers should not punish girls in the current era are simply that I have never heard of a genuine sounding complaint that a boy was distressed beyond the actual effects of the punishment when punished by a female, indeed almost the contrary in some cases. However I have heard of a number of cases where girls were distressed at being punished by males, and indeed atributed to the person performing the punishment motives which quite probably were not actually present. I am no expert on the relative psychology of the sexes. Girls are sometimes said to feel more guilty than boys if they have broken the rules and possibly that guilt may give rise to the need to ascribe to the punishment a significance other than the just desserts for an offence. I have no idea of the reason for the phenomenon, I just think that if a CP option was to be credible that particular issue would be best avoided.

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 17 2009, 1:23 AM 

Sorry Doc, but even 0.19% is too much.

Then, Steve, I suggest you get out there on the streets and agitate for the shutting down of all schools immediately. Because that is the only ways schools are ever going to be safe enough based on that point of view.

Yes, the only acceptable level of abuse in a school is zero. The only acceptable percentage of abusers is zero. But perfection is something that is virtually unobtainable in any setting where human beings are involved and while we should certainly be trying to get as close to that level as possible, we shouldn't be doing it at the expense of other children.

When we restrict what 99.8% of trustworthy teachers are able to do in dealing with children, because of 0.2% who can't be trusted, we wind up damaging the education of far, far more children than those abusers were capable of harming on their own. And, in all probability, we wind up doing nothing at all to help those children who are being abused - because those teachers have already proven that they don't care what the rules are, they'll ignore them - so expecting more rules to stop them is pointless.

I don't try and stop students from smoking by banning chocolate in the school. Well, that idea makes about as much sense as believing a ban on corporal punishment would stop a teacher from having sex with a student.

These are people in a position of power and trust with children. How would you feel if one of your pupils moved & went to school under the power of such people?

If I caught the person involved, I'd be tempted to break every single bone in his or her body, but I'd probably settle for seeing them prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

What I wouldn't do is go to Mr Smith, and Mr Wong, and Mrs Archer, and Miss Jones, and Mr Nguyen, and Mrs Feldman, (etc, etc) and tell them: "Sorry, but you have to change the way you teach because of the actions of that utter scumbag Carter. I'm sorry it will make you less effective teachers, but no price is too high to pay to pay lipservice to the idea of keeping children safe."

But that sort of revelation rather puts inflicting pain into the sadistic category. And with the rise of equal rights etc, you now know why public and political opinion swung right round against chastising girls.

It's never been a major factor here - perhaps because in Australia, there does seem to have been more action over a long period of time to restrict the corporal punishment of girls in schools than seems to have been the case in the UK. Most of the country's state schools either banned it or at least severely restricted it for adolescent girls, and far fewer private girls schools used it than boys schools. There doesn't seem to have been any general disquiet about the idea of corporal punishment being used with girls even when abolition became a common cause.

As, I think, I've made clear, I'm not a real advocate for the idea that corporal punishment should be used with girls in any event, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are reasons that mitigate against the idea. But those issues are completely separate, in my view, from the idea that we need to restrict the practices of all teachers to deal with the reality of a tiny minority who are already acting outside of what is acceptable, and so who wouldn't be affected by further restricting that anyway.

You don't stop sexual abuse of children by banning corporal punishment, anymore than you'd stop smoking by banning chocolate.

 
 
American Way

Oldie but Goodie

August 21 2009, 1:01 PM 

Pertaining to sexual abuse from 1914 book on school dicipline previously quoted and then an amusing anecdote. It's a good read as are many from Internet Archives from Canadian libraries previously mentioned are good sites.

http://www.archive.org/stream/schooldiscipline00bagluoft#page/184/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/schooldiscipline00bagluoft#page/210/mode/1up


 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 22 2009, 1:19 AM 

Thank you for the above links, American Way. I shall have to wash my mouth out with soap afterwards for saying something nice about Microsoft, but the digitising of those books is very clever stuff. I love the way you can turn individual pages or whole batches of pages. IMHO a much better system than Google Books.

It is interesting that a book published in the US in 1914 should say (p184):

One of the earliest effective reactions against corporal punishment in schools was to interdict the whipping of girls

If it ever existed in the US that interdiction doesn't seem to have lasted very well to judge by the number of girls being paddled now! It certainly never existed in the UK until the final abolition of school CP.

The book also says (again p184):

Corporal punishment can be most effectively applied only when certain parts of the body are exposed and the notion that self-respect in this very personal sense could not in justice be sacrificed to the necessities of punishment has gradually eliminated the chastisement of adolescents in schools ........... the sense of indelicacy which now effectually prevents the use of the rod with girls, and with boys who have reached the age of sexual self-consciousness .........

It looks as though the widespread adoption of the paddle blew that one out of the water in the US. In the UK any little problems regarding ineffective application of CP unless certain parts of the body were exposed were already overcome well prior to the book's publication by the adoption of the cane instead of the birch. Some schools though still decided that a bit of extra exposure didn't come amiss for more serious offences. This seems to have continued right to the end with expedients like the Rodney School gym kit routine and, especially for girls, hints of rather less justifiable practices at some schools.

 
 
American Way

Teacher Chatboard (Pester or Poster?)

August 23 2009, 12:38 PM 

From time to time something of interests appears on this chatboard. If you don't believe that 42 year old male principals paddle 17 year old girls I will soon post some statistics that prove otherwise. Nancy from Booneville was not an isolated case. By now some may not have inetrests because of my multiple postings but I'm in the midst of writing a hypothetical student handbook and am in respectful disagreement with two members of this estimable Forum and believe that woman should be involved with girls and men should have no part in it. Dr Dominum feels that if a woman is available than a woman should and not a man and prof n feels that changes in policies may imply a capitulation or concurrence to unfounded suspicions. Unless I'm misrepresenting their views I hope they can clarify them at least to my mind. I believe if a violation is more likely to be perceived, rightly or wrongly, by females more than males than females are carry more a burden. That involves bopth the administrator as well as the witness (who turning red in Anna story does not necessarily mean that he was aroused!!!) Among the tens of thousands of high school girls facing a paddling 25% more choose suspension when given an option than boys. Details of why these approximations apply according to the federal data will be forth coming. The details involve names of elementary schools, middle schools and high schools and racial, gender and special needs. High schools girls are less frequent and the ratio between boys and girls favor the boys as they mature. The sugar and spice factor may come more and more in play with girls physical maturity because there are more male teachers than females teachers in the upper grades. I'm giving the link with its many responses (pro and con)as well as two recorded suspicions that it might be a canard to promote the anti-cp cause. In my opinion it is not written to arouse and the responses are worth considering given the title of this thread but may be a ploy by the anti-CP. Also I value the opinions of this estimable Forum whether it it is the work of a pester or a poster. It is an emotive topic and often yanked by their forum so don't delay.

http://teachers.net/mentors/high_school/topic9313/8.21.09.08.44.26.html

A while back there was a virtually identical post. Same
scenario - two men, short skirt, sexual arousal....
Methinks someone with a strong anti-paddling view is using this scenario to make some points.

I actually think this could be the same person who last year
said she was a student teacher who was threatened with paddling
by a coach (something in the writing style reminded me
immediately of that poster). But anyway...

Paddling in schools...i was beyond humiliated yesterday
Posted by: Anna on 8/21/09

I live in a southern state and our highschool still
practices corporal punishment. I have never been paddled
before until yesterday and it was the most embarrasing
situation I have ever been it...I think it should be
banned. I was late more than three times and the teacher
sent me to the principal's office for the "punishment". Let
me tell you...I am a 17 year old girl and very pretty (not
trying to be conceited) but I really did NOT feel like it
was appropriate for my 42 year old principal to paddle me
on my butt. I was also wearing a skirt and when I asked him
to receive the punishment the next day, he declined. So can
you imagine the humiliation of me bending over his desk
with a full view of my buttocks? also, the witness was a
man and when I finished receiving my punishment, the man's
face was bright red and he couldn't look at me. Even he
found it ridiculous! I am embarrased to say this but i
actually cried because he was paddling me so hard...after
the first hit i just burst into tears..i felt like i was a
3 year old child...it was humiliating. He just told me to
get into position and suck it up. I actually felt like I
was raped. Has anyone experienced school paddling? If
so...i am truly sorry and I had to express my feelings on
here because I am way too embarrased to tell my parents.






 
 
prof.n

Re : Male teachers spanking girls

August 23 2009, 5:06 PM 


Hi American way,
Came on line to do airport check in and saw your post .I'm not sure you correctly reflect my position so here it is in brief:-

I said on your Handbook thread:-


Finally a thought on the same sex issue. There is a clear case that men shouldn't paddle girls but beyond this to me is a red herring.... just look at the statistics. More boys are abused by men than by women by a long chalk. Some of the worst cases of abuse have been men on boys, so why push them into that position just because there are arguments against men being involved with girls...or do we always pander to the court of public opinion , even when its counter factual? Give students the right to request, but don't make rules that there is no evidentiary basis for. That's when you get into trouble in the courts.





OK so what I feel is as follows:-

Some girls will be paddled in the US system, probably significantly fewer than men. It should for everyone be based on socio- psychological profiles,( expensive and difficult (impossible ?) as TWP have pointed out) and MUST exclude medical exemptions. In state school it should be based for everyone on parental right to refuse cp registered annually and recorded manually and on computer. Any doubts parents must be referred to.

As to administration girls SHOULD ideally be paddled by women, and should have the ABSOLUTE right to request this . Any other arrangement should be purely exceptional and must be agreed in writing without coercion by the girl concerned. (see below for how this might come to pass).

I don't think it matters as much with boys, because as I said there is far more of a problem with male on male abuse than female on male. Further whilst there is a non sexual aspect to male on female size strength and intent (macho culture) none of these issues would apply vice versa. .

In this situation ,however, for reasons of equality of rights give the boy the absolute right to opt for a male to administer and witness the punishment by all means, but there is absolutely no need to insist.

The situation where I could have envisaged a girl preferring to be paddled by a man rather than a women was outlined by a Principal of a small high School My research notes of his conversation with me ( some time ago) were written up ( a little sanitised fir the 54 censor machine but as near verbatim as possible) as follows (E&OE). I'm NOT SUPPORTING his view its just here for a rounded picture......









......... at 14 , ....., you should be old enough to decide if you can take a few swats. ~And as I said the paperwork, or do it wrong, don't get a witness, we only have a Principal and one VP here and........., I can't take out a teacher from class. the school board says swats must be given straight away , its cruel to make kids wait more than a few minutes, so who is going to paddle other than me and who is my my witness??....... If a girl asks for a female to paddle her, which I get...well , I have no option, she'll have to come back after school when I have a couple of teachers who will do it, but I guess that's her choice -= probably her lawyer won't agree. Otherwise ..break up a class to get a teacher to paddle...another class disrupted for the witness....or what about get a female janitor as witness , sure, yeah! ..think that would go down in Court?Anyway the male female thing is a joke , the hardest swats in my old school came from a youngish female VP, an ex athletics coach. We nicknamed her Boadicea .Boys , girls , indeterminate, all the same to her!!

I hate giving licks to anyone, but licks are better than the alternatives, believe me.


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 23 2009, 6:41 PM 

prof n thanks for the clarification and enjoy your trip. I'm going with the brace postion for safety thanks to your painful experience but not the holes (fabric) for my school corporal punishment tutorial instructions. I'll have a first draft waiting for your input upon your return and of course others input like Dr Dominum for the scale factor for offense and consequence even given his feelings towars a disciplinary matrix.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 23 2009, 8:24 PM 

I promised some surprising data so here goes. In Corpun 20162 there was a big brouhaha over Audrey Pee, 18, being paddled by a young male principal named Bill Brand. He was 1989 graduate of that school and he has been named the new prinicpal after a courtroom vindication.

In 2006/2007 the following statistics were published showing about ten percent of the girls and a third of the boys were paddled at his small high school. He was principal at that time. It will be interesting to see if that took a dip during his hiatus and what will happen now that he has returned. The school obviously trusted him to keep him on as coach. It seems a reasonable surmise that girls would choose paddling if men didn't play a role in it. I do fell Brand has been unfairly treated for enforcing policy culturally embedded in MS and others must agree among those who matter.

Now that I know through Center for Effective Discipline site how to access these records it's become very easy indeed. It was right before me and I don't know if Corpun has shared this with others but I suggest they do.


MS EAST WEBSTER HIGH SCHOOL 160 195 15 65 15 30

The first and second column are the enrollments of the girls and boys and the third and fourth are the CP numbers corresponding. The fourth and fifth columns are the supensions for the girls and the boys. What does it say? As many girls chose paddling as suspensions while more than twice chose paddlings over suspensions among the boys. These figures are not at all atypical. Compared to other schools in MS the numbers are low and that might have to do with things like respect which is often missing in other parts of the USA especially urban areas with liberal leanings. Enough said!!!

From Audrey Pee's facebook she is fond of exposing more than her ankles and especially surprising from Maben MS. I tend to think that the Principal had a lot to contend with dealing with that one. There was a popular radio newscater named Paul Harvey who had a program the rest of the story.

http://www.cdispatch.com/sports/article.asp?aid=1477

http://www.facebook.com/audrey.pee

This appeared in a popular forum involving Audrey Pee.

A former teacher wrote:

Ok lets get the facts straight she was disrespectful when another staff member told her that her pants did not meet dress code standards , if she were she would have respectively , pulled the pants leg down , it would never have gone this far, the fact is SHE WAS DISRESPECTFUL!!!!!!!! There have been too may lies told just to try and ruin a good mans name. It is time Audrey held up her head and acted like a woman and tells the truth. NOT HER MOTHER, BUT AUDREY!!!


Uh hello this is Audrey.. I told her exactly this " I have worn these pants several times this year, and he made that rule up yesterday when I was absent thats not fare Im not getting wrote up for this.. As an 18 year old. Im aware of my rights and I have option.. Why do we care about ruining someones name??? Why would we lie?? If you would have been at court. You would have seen who was lying!!

audrey pee

and i did pull my pants down HELLO THE ARE CAPRIS THE DONT GO DOWN THAT FAR!!!



 
 
American Way

Soda Head Poll

September 9 2009, 4:21 PM 

Getting the pulse of young people is not very easy.

Most of these estimable Forum participants are not from the My Space, Facebook or Twitter generation. My kids tell me what's going on in their world. That and my fondness of links have led to this. I found it refreshingly less fetish oriented than other polls involving Male Teachers Spanking Girls (far more infrequent than ant CP zealots want you to believe). The lack of personal experience may account for this decline in fetish posting.

The caning of Headmaster/naughty schoolgirl fantasy is far more popular than the Principal/student paddling fantasy. Fantasies are based on dominant/submissive fantasies which is an archetype. The cane being employed is more iconic than the paddle and has made corporal punishment called the British Vice and not praise God the American Way.

What is Soda Head is a social polling site founded by MySpace Execs Jason Feffer and Michael Glazer, who noticed polling was one of the most used features on MySpace. SodaHead is a leading opinion community focused on discussing today's hottest topics. If you have something that gets your noggin spinning, hit up SodaHead -- ask a question or add your two cents and see who else thinks like you.

Share your views with your opinionated friends, your gossipy coworker, your know-it-all ex, or meet new friends. Pick your passion, whether it's politics, pop-culture, music, sports or relationships, you'll find SodaHeads who are all worked up about the same stuff.

School Corporal Punishment Pro Con Paddle


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

September 9 2009, 5:24 PM 

From the pollster who initiated the poll (marie/m) her opinion on CP is as follows: (If I was present and the principal does the paddling, yes. If my child was in public school, then he should see support/consistency between parent and school. My presence would be a true deterrence to abusing my child, AND I would be showing support that the principal is enforcing the code of conduct properly. And THEN, he'd get it again when he got home).

Good advice for Part II of my student handbook I'm working on and awaiting feedback. The girl's profile follows who initiated the poll. Far from statistically significant the poll does give you a snapshot of what some young people are thinking and an opportunity to understand both the thought process and gamut of opinions that school corporal punishment elicits even when it's become less and less frequently employed. Some of our estimable Forum may be interested in her(marie/m) profile to better understand her and the American Way.

Profile of Pollster

 
 

What's the problem?

October 4 2009, 12:07 AM 

When I was at school in the UK during the 60's and early 70's, boys and girls often got the slipper in class from both male and female teachers. The headmistress and assistant headmaster both caned boys and girls.

If a boy and a girls are caught talking in class (after being warned a couple of times) what should the teacher do? Slipper the one of the same sex as the teacher and then find a teacher of the opposite sex to slipper the other? Admittedly, arrangements could be made for them to each report later to teachers of the appropriate sex to be slippered but that would remove most of the benefits of a classroom slippering - namely the immediacy, swiftness and simplicity.

Where pupils are sent to be caned for more serious offences, they could be sent to teachers of their own sex but what would be the point? If a mixed sex group of pupils are all caught committing the same offence together (smoking for example) they should all be punished together. That way they all receive the same punishment and, possibly more importantly, know they all received the same punishment. A child believed to have unfairly "got off" is likely to be subject to considerable resentment.




 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 4 2009, 2:45 AM 

Lauren will trade embarrassment for pain. Why should that be surprising? Maybe the sugar and spice plays a bigger factor than one imagines? Being paddled by a man is not that much different than being spanked by a father when younger. Where there is mutual respect you don't impugn nefarious motives so when a male paddles a girl ot osn't as much a big deal as some make it out to be. .

Posted by: Lauren on 7/27/09

Well, I was paddled twice in high school by a district with a
similar policy. The first time I took the option of getting the
swats from a female coach who was designated to administer corporal
punishment. She was a former athlete who basically swung the
paddle like a tennis pro hitting a forehand smash. I was sore for
two weeks. The second time it was frome a male VP. It was bad,
but not nearly as bad.


Maybe someone can format this disciplinary chart similar to Winona found on this site. It would make it more attractive. Lets face it detention ties up every ones time and seem equally unattractive and ISS is detrimental to the student so CP is frequently chosen.

It would look good in my student handbook and I have no reason to believe it isn't the real thing. Most schools don't publish their charts but enforced them internally and make them known to the students by word of mouth because they are constantly changing. Their handbooks are very vague among the ones that paddle the most from the ORCA data.

Let's bracket whether matrices are too robotic (previously debated) and assume matrice a given so how reasonable does this one seem? I think the offense/sanction ratio is one of the best I've seen online and they are many out there. Academic dishonesty is punished severely because of cyber cheating and cell phones and texting are ruffling the feathers of the faculty. Dr Dominum (given continental differences) do you think this chart reasonable?


You have to ask yourself if the offenses shown in the disciplinary chart are in accord with female proclivities and then wonder if the total number of paddlings may outweigh the number of indiviuals paddled. The Alvin TX High School may not be an aberration at least in AK nor may Lauren be a phony.


How is this Matrix?


 
 
American Way

chart into box matrix?

October 4 2009, 4:42 AM 

Posted by: discipline chart on 7/17/09

first unexcused tardy = warning

second unexcused tardy = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

third unexcused tary = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

fourth unexcused tardy = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

first cell phone violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

second cell phone violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

tobacco violation = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

profanity = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

profanity towards teacher or staff = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

parking lot violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

bus violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

dress code violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

skipping = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

academic dishonesty = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

class disruption = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

gum, candy, food in class = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

failure to dress out for PE = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

public display of affection = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

internet use violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

damage/destuction of property = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

theft = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

false statements/note to teacher or staff = 3 licks or 5
hours detention

 
 

Another_Lurker

Chart into box matrix? Well ok this time!

October 5 2009, 2:01 AM 

Hi American Way. I've done your matrix for you, and a very boring one it is too, since only the first two offences have increasing penalties for repetition. Hardly worth a matrix really, but as it was a trivial job to modify the previous one I did for you, here it is.

Now if you'd followed up that stuff I did on the previous matrix for you, you'd be bashing them off yourself in a trice. It isn't difficult. Trust me, if you can get a Physics degree this stuff is child's play! I shall expect an All-American product next time! happy.gif

OFFENSE 1ST OFFENSE 2ND OFFENSE 3RD OFFENSE 4TH OFFENSE
unexcused tardy
warning
2 licks or 3 hours detention
3 licks or 5 hours detention
5 licks or 3 days ISS
cell phone violation
2 licks or 3 hours detention
3 licks or 5 hours detention
   
tobacco violation
5 licks or 3 days ISS
     
profanity
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
profanity towards teacher or staff
5 licks or 3 days ISS
     
parking lot violation
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
bus violation
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
dress code violation
2 licks or 3 hours detention
     
skipping
5 licks or 3 days ISS
     
academic dishonesty
5 licks or 3 days ISS
     
class disruption
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
gum, candy, food in class
2 licks or 3 hours detention
     
failure to dress out for PE
2 licks or 3 hours detention
     
public display of affection
2 licks or 3 hours detention
     
internet use violation
2 licks or 3 hours detention
     
damage/destuction of property
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
theft
3 licks or 5 hours detention
     
false statements/note to teacher or staff
3 licks or 5
hours detention
     

 
 
American Way

THANKS FOR THE DISCIPLINARY MATRIX

October 5 2009, 2:45 AM 

Awesome. Thank you.

An interesting effect of woman's liberation is that it came to Arkansas while the tradition of paddling persisted. 25% less girls chose paddling as gleaned from the ORCA data. That proved surprising to those who perhaps underestimated their courage to submit. Never underestimate them. But then again don't underestimate the opposition as previously noted they are saying girls are treated differently when receiving CP.

From the Arkansas Teachers chatboard

7/21/09

It is intersting that one result of equal rights has been a more equal
application of corporal punishment. Through the mid 1970's in Arkansas and
elsewhere, girls were a small minority of students who were paddled. When the
issue of equal punishment came up and a voluntary choice for all students was
applied, girls as well as boys began to be paddled routinely. While 9th grade
boys still seem to receive the most swats, at this point they are followed
closely by 11th and 12th grade girls. The infractions resulting in swats in
these groups include tardies, cell phone use, tobacco violations, parking lot
violations, etc.


.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 5:36 AM 

Thank you, American Way. It is seldom that a client describes my efforts as 'Awesome'. Usually they say something like 'yes, I know I said I'd like a slide out sidebar menu with extra onmouseover effects, but I've just seen this site with a sort of transparent effect menu that appears at the top of the page and could you possibly do one of those instead ......'.

I am thinking about how I can get you doing tables. Having triumphed on short form links I feel that nothing is impossible! happy.gif

The extract from the Arkansas Teachers chatboard that you quote uis interesting:

While 9th grade boys still seem to receive the most swats, at this point they are followed closely by 11th and 12th grade girls. The infractions resulting in swats in these groups include tardies, cell phone use, tobacco violations, parking lot violations, etc.

More and more entries in this estimable Forum seem to be pointing to girls being, and having been, just as badly behaved as boys in school, and often paying for their sins by being, or having been, in receipt of corporal punishment. A hard thing for me to come to terms with. I've never been totally in denial about this, but equally I've never thought that it was anything other than relatively uncommon compared to boys.

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 8:21 AM 

I have been away for a few days, so there is quite a bit to catch up on, especially the Mr Ing business, but I'll come to that later.

I was interested in Jenny's account of both male and female teachers slippering the opposite sex. Certainly female teachers slippered boys but I never came across a male teacher either slippering or caning a girl. Like Jenny I was also at school in the late 60s early 70s and very few girls were slippered or caned when I was at school, but those that were were by a female teacher. Don't get me wrong I entirely accept what she says and there is stacks of evidence on Friends Reunited to prove it.

The closest incident came when a male teacher THREATENED to spank a girl on her bottom , and he used those words. This teacher was a regular slipperer of boys and it must be possible that he did slipper a few girls.

If for instance a few boys and girls were caught smoking the Headmistress would have caned the girls , on the hand. Most misbehaviour was during breaks and PE lessons ,usually by boys. I cannot recall an instance of boys being slippered and girls getting a different punishment for the same offence, apart from the smoking which attracted the cane.

I would be interested to hear more from Jenny about the slipperings of girls by male teachers, and how they reacted, for instance did they just go bright red and pretend it didn't hurt or did they do the wardance accompanied by rubbing the affected area.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 12:23 PM 

Hi Declan,


I was interested in Jenny's account of both male and female teachers slippering the opposite sex. Certainly female teachers slippered boys but I never came across a male teacher either slippering or caning a girl. Like Jenny I was also at school in the late 60s early 70s and very few girls were slippered or caned when I was at school, but those that were were by a female teacher. Don't get me wrong I entirely accept what she says and there is stacks of evidence on Friends Reunited to prove it.

What, really, is the difference between a female teacher slippering boys and a male teacher slippering girls? In both cases the recipient is of the opposite sex from the one doing it. The main reason fewer girls were slippered or caned in many schools has nothing to do with our being better behaved, it s just that girls tend to be allowed a lot more leeway.


If for instance a few boys and girls were caught smoking the Headmistress would have caned the girls , on the hand. Most misbehaviour was during breaks and PE lessons ,usually by boys. I cannot recall an instance of boys being slippered and girls getting a different punishment for the same offence, apart from the smoking which attracted the cane.

Sorry, I don't understand that last bit. You seem to be saying that boys and girls got the same punishments for the same offences apart from smoking. But you also said the headmistress would cane the girls for smoking. What did the boys get? Or were you saying boys got the cane for other things (apart from smoking) but the girls got another punishment?


I would be interested to hear more from Jenny about the slipperings of girls by male teachers, and how they reacted, for instance did they just go bright red and pretend it didn't hurt or did they do the wardance accompanied by rubbing the affected area.

The first pupils in my class to get the slipper (two boys and a girl together) went quite red from the embarrassment of it. It was quite amusing in a way. All three had being messing about and had been warned a couple of time. In the end they were called out to the front and, as they were going there, the teacher picked up the slipper. At that point we knew the boys were going to get it but I wasn't sure about the girl - I had an idea that, despite the headmistresses introductory speech about treating us all equally, the girl was just going to get a "telling off". I think she was thinking (or hoping) that too. As expected, one of the boys was told to bend over and the teacher gave him two or three whacks with the slipper. Then the other boy was told to bend over and he got two or three whacks. Then, as in all honesty we should have expected, the girl was told to bend over and she got exactly the same. They said later that it wasn't too bad but it had the desired effect - the whole class was well behaved for the rest of the day.

Overall, getting the slipper from a male teacher was better than from a female teacher. The men seemed to control the power behind it (for both boys and girls) but female teachers tended to just "go for it" not realizing their own strength. A classroom slippering was usually (but certainly not always) a relatively mild affair. It stung at the time, and you knew if you got it again it would be a lot harder, but it soon wore off.

I'll try to answer any more questions as soon as I can but I am rather busy today so you might have to wait.



 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 4:39 PM 

Jenny

Apologies for not being quite clear on this. Girls and boys would be caned for smoking, but from the Headmistress and Headmaster as appropriate.

Very few girls were given the cane as so few of them smoked, or misbehaved in another manner. There were also very few slipperings in front of a normal class of , say, history. If a boy and a girl were caught talking they would most likely be sent out of the room which did happen. Most teachers at my school did not use the slipper, probably 6 or so male teachers and 3 females , and there were 50 teachers at least.

I would estimate that around the 50 boys in my year two thirds of them were slippered at some stage in their school career and half of that were caned, though some boys must have been caned 20 or so times. As for girls , very fewer, half a dozen slippered and maybe two caned.

I did try to get some more information on the number of girls getting CP at my old school via contacting some of them on Friends Reunited but with limited success. ( Steve from SE5 can perhaps give me a few tips on that !)

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 6:01 PM 

Hi Declan,


Apologies for not being quite clear on this. Girls and boys would be caned for smoking, but from the Headmistress and Headmaster as appropriate.

OK, I read it as boys and girls being given the same punishment (as each other) for all offences except smoking - when they were given the same punishment.

Very few girls were given the cane as so few of them smoked, or misbehaved in another manner.

In my school I think it was roughly 50:50. About the same number of girls smoked as boys then but nowadays I believe teenage girls are significantly more likely to smoke than boys. As for other misbehaviour, are you sure girls were better behaved or just got punished less?

There were also very few slipperings in front of a normal class of , say, history. If a boy and a girl were caught talking they would most likely be sent out of the room which did happen.

We got quite a lot of, albeit fairly mild, slipperings in class. We very rarely got lines or detention though. What would happen if two boys were caught talking or two girls? I'm interested because your answer because it might support an hypothesis.

Most teachers at my school did not use the slipper, probably 6 or so male teachers and 3 females , and there were 50 teachers at least.

I think just about all my teachers used the slipper, some more than others.

I would estimate that around the 50 boys in my year two thirds of them were slippered at some stage in their school career and half of that were caned, though some boys must have been caned 20 or so times. As for girls , very fewer, half a dozen slippered and maybe two caned.

At a rough guess, I'd say almost everyone at my school got the slipper at least once at some stage. I think most of us got the cane too. I'm not sure anyone got it 20 times though. I thought I was bad but even I didn't manage that sort of score! There is no reason to think that boys got it any more than I just for being boys.





 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 5 2009, 11:49 PM 

Well it's good to see you back Declan. Was your absence perchance due to your trip to sunny Aberdeen? If so did the weather permit ascending any of the hills, and did your friend divulge any new information on belting and its former essential place in Scottish education?

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 6 2009, 1:45 AM 

Previously I said a woman should paddle a girl if available and it should not be in the handbook because it would imply that male teachers have nefarious motives. In the work in progress handbook it will be woman paddling girls. If no woman was available in the school then the school would become corporal punishment free. My visceral reaction to Steve Halter played into that. Getting back to Nancy my wife felt that I over reacted to the issue of paddling a pregnant girl. For her it was no big deal. It would be her parents call. I think the paddling spanking org site would serve a great function if it gets up and functioning. What would Renee et al think of the stated goals on the home page?

Lastly I wonder if Renee would ever consider paddling a pregnant teen and under what circumstances? BTW the chart posted so graciously probably doesnt include what the punishment is for the first offense. The teacher was responding to how corporal punishment was employed after some warning or consequence had occurred or so I would assume hence I will be using both columns. That being said I think the principle of proportionality between offense and sanction seems reasonable. The color of the chart made it even more awesome but I suppose it is one step at a time.

 
 
prof.n

Male teachers spanking girls

October 6 2009, 9:02 AM 

Hi American Way and Another Lurker.

Interesting chart. I too was surprised to see only tardies had 'repeat' violations, although some of the other categories are generic.

Some interesting anomalies. As always tobacco is hated ( but you only get half what I got in the 70's), so I hope the students are grateful for small mercies.

Damage theft and false statements seem very leniently treated compared with academic dishonesty, and really minor issues, parking violation gym kit etc.

Finally the issue about 11 and 12th grade girls getting the highest number of infractions and 9th grade boys, was something commented upon by several administrators when I visited the south. To compare with other recent postings, this includes what in the GB we would call sixth form girls. My American friend confirmed this was a typical pattern throughout her teaching life. In her experience many of the 'older' girls thought the paddle was a bit of a joke. it was your job to make sure when they left the office that ,( without being excessive), this idea had been dispelled once and for all ! Knowing her , that would not be difficult!

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 6 2009, 12:58 PM 

prof n This matrix is amusing to me because of its inclusion of adults and the number of offenses. I haven't found one on line as extensive. When a student drops out of high school they can study for a GED or equivalency test (without a diploma) or they can enroll and graduate with their own diploma usually awarded in an adult graduation ceremony. Do they have a rough equivalent of that in the UK? To carry over the same disciplinary matrix (Eucon highschool/college and still an open question) would be pro forma but to up the ante for adults I find amusing. That means they must be enforcing it. As far as horseplay the only horseplay I would be doing between the usual ages (19 to 23) would qualify as public display of affection.

I think if they had corporal punishment the list wouldn't be so extensive. For the adults maybe not they may already be into that.

Mother of All Disciplinary Matrices

 
 
prof.n

Re Matrix

October 6 2009, 5:21 PM 


Hi American Way,

That takes the biscuit! Know any 7 years olds who would understand that , no come to that can read 20 pages of administrative memo! ....

Actually its a students charter , well, until you get sent to the special behaviour unit ! Every road leads to suspension. For example cut classes get suspended ( take unauthorised free time : get rewarded with some more) Is this is Nirvana of Paula and her merry band.......

I liked the special behaviour unit where youngsters could be made to sit for a day's classes at their desks, without talking to other students. !!! Punishment? Did we ever do anything else?

It seems as you get older you have 10 free bites then it could get nasty , 45 days in the special behavioral unit......and , as you say , if you're an adult don't express affection to your significant other. Actually I think the adult matrix was drawn up with the intention of ensuring that so many students are always suspended the teaching becomes easy.........






















 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 5 2010, 10:53 PM 

I think I have heard enough from this woman. After losing in court and seeing Bill Brand return as principal she is now testifying in Congress. Get a hold of yourself and get a life.

The people have spoken and Bill Brand has been vindicated. Talk about making a federal case. sad.gif

Audrey and Linda Pee

Bill Brand

 
 
Nathan

Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 20 2010, 7:03 AM 

I witnessed one girl receiving school corporal punishment from a male teacher. The incident occurred in primary school where my year 5 teacher gave a girl about 4 strokes with a ruler on her bottom for talking during lessons. The ruler was about 20 inches long and fairly thick for a ruler. She had to bend over in front of the class and after her strokes she had to return to her desk, she was crying by the time the last stroke was administered to her and she was sobbing for about a couple of minutes afterwards. I didn't witness a girl receiving the cane however there was nothing preventing girls from receiving the cane and I did hear some talk of it happenening but it was rare for a girl to be caned.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

June 26 2010, 4:12 PM 

Since teachers act in loco parentis parental attiruredes toward puberty and gender are reflected in these responses. Be sure not to miss the response of Lily at the very bottom of the page. happy.gif

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100524214619AA3BUVn

 
 
WiltsGuy

My wife's experience

April 1 2011, 9:33 PM 

The slippering and caning of schoolgirls on their rears probably went on behind many a closed door. My wife took such a slippering a long time ago and was too embarrassed about to tell anyone for a very long time. Im sure what happened to her is not unique in the history of English schools.

About a year or so ago one of my kids has been in a lot of trouble at school, and the way in which the school dealt with the whole thing made my wife mention to me how things were handled better by schools in days gone by, and that she had once been 'slippered' to make the point. To begin with she wouldn't tell me anything more about it, but I got her tipsy on wine one evening and managed to get her to recount the story to me; this was the first time she had ever told anyone her story, and the reason for that was because she had been so embarrassed about the whole thing. Although this is hearsay, I'll do my best to tell the story she told me, I don't doubt its authenticity having been married to her for 20 years now.

It was back in 1979, she was 15 years old and went to a comprehensive school in Bedfordshire. She remembers it was the summer months and the class had all travelled by coach into London to look around the British Museum, I suppose this was a cultural trip arranged by the school once the end of year exams were over. There were about 30 kids altogether, and a couple of teachers, one of whom doubled as the Head of Year, she remembers him as a somewhat surly authoritarian figure, not much fun to be around, maybe in his 40s. On this particular trip she had absolutely no intention of spending all day in a boring museum, and had plans to sneak away and go explore the shops in Oxford Street. One of her friends had agreed to sneak off with her, but when it came time to get away her friend backed out. My wife (Sue) decided to sneak off alone and planned to return before the 3.30pm rendezvous outside the museum entrance. So whilst she was off doing something far more interesting, she missed out on the word being passed around that the time for meeting up to rejoin the coach was brought forward to 2.30pm. This was the days before mobile phones and her friend couldn't get word to her. Imagine her surprise when she got back to the museum at around 3pm to find everyone had been waiting 30 minutes or so. The teachers were initially very concerned when one of their 'charges' was missing - initially flying into a panic and asking all of the kids if they knew where she was. As they were about to notify the museums security staff, and were clearly exceedingly worried, Sues friend reluctantly came forward and explained what had happened. My wife explained her embarrassment at arriving to find 30 or so laughing schoolmates and 2 very foul tempered teachers. She was bawled out in front of all her classmates, and told to take her seat on the coach, and that she would be dealt with later.

The journey back to school was one that she won't forget as she spent the entire journey really worried about what she had done; she understood clearly that she had screwed up in a big way. Once back at school, all of her classmates headed on home, but she was told to wait to one side. Eventually, the other teacher also departed, leaving just her and the Head of Year there. He told her to follow him, and he headed into the school building. She followed him a couple of steps behind all the way along various corridors until he arrived at his office. The school was absolutely deserted, it was around 5pm, and she believes even now that they were the only 2 in the building. The journey back to the school had calmed the Year Head down somewhat, but as he explained to her the error of his ways he opened a drawer and brought into view a plimsoll - at this point my wife explained that her heart almost stopped, she had never been slippered before and never ever contemplated that this might be her punishment. As the guy told her how stupid she had been, how much trouble the school would have been in if anything had happened to her, he moved towards her and told her to bend over. I asked her what was going through her mind at this moment, and she simply said that she was utterly terrified, but this was back in the days when teachers (and particularly Year Heads) had absolute authority. She told me that it never occurred to her to question the instruction, so despite feeling hugely uncomfortable about the entire situation, she just bent over and waited for what was to follow. I managed to find out from her that she had been wearing jeans and a blouse that day. She said that her attempt to bend over had clearly unimpressed the Year Head as he placed a hand on her back and pressed down, and told her to touch her toes. She remembers vividly feeling so utterly embarrassed at being asked to assume this position - she also felt incredibly vulnerable being so alone with a guy twice her size, in an otherwise deserted building, and the fact that he was holding a plimsoll and was staring at her raised bottom did not help matters. Anyway, once she was in position, the slipper was brought down with a tremendous whack which almost knocked her over. She remembered the utter shock at being hit so hard, the loud crack of the slipper and the awful burning sensation which followed. She apparently tried to get up, thinking perhaps somewhat naively that her slippering was over, and her lesson learnt! The Year Head had obviously seen this coming, because no sooner had she began to move he immediately placed a hand on her back and pressed her down again - she remembers his hand remained in place for quite some time, I'm guessing he kept his hand there until he was content she wasn't going to move. Eventually the hand was removed, there followed a pause, and then the second whack came down, as hard as the first. She said his hand was on her back immediately which prevented her from instinctively jumping up, but she grabbed her bottom with both hands and howled the place down. She had not been given any idea how many strokes was planned, and hardly a word was spoken - seems the guy just waited with his hand on her back pressing her down until she had composed herself and then asked her to put her hands back down to her toes. There then followed a long pause after his hand was removed, she could see him standing behind her and wondered why he waited for what seemed like a long time before delivering the next almighty blow. Overall she had to endure six whacks with that plimsoll, and as he seemed in no particular hurry she reckoned it took maybe 5-10 minutes in total, the vast majority of that time with his hand on her back keeping her bent over, or standing behind her eyeing up the target area... She remembers that the pain was excruciating of course, but what was equally terrible was having to bend over in front of a male teacher. Once it was over she went directly to the girls toilets and spent a while in there composing herself before heading on home.

She told no one in over 30 years what happened that day, because she knew she would be the butt of her friends jokes if anyone found out; she told them she had just received an almighty telling off. At the time she didnt associate anything sexual in what happened, just a real sense of unease, but years later she began to wonder. When I found out I couldnt help but find her story both amusing and arousing. Do I think she deserved that punishment, well Im not sure, but I do think that she did deserve something really quite serious. I do think the Year Head knew exactly what he was doing slippering a girl in his office at that time of the day provided him with absolute privacy, and even if it had come to light he could have justified the summary punishment in light of what had happened. I am convinced that he got a sexual kick out of having a teenage girls bottom so positioned for his attention, and that he liked to lay it on hard.

Is it a surprise that a teenage girl was slippered by a male teacher? I hardly think so people back then enjoyed whacking female bottoms as much as some people do today. Just as paedophiles have historically sought employment with children, Britains teaching profession in the pre-1980s years provided ample opportunities for spankers to get their kicks also.

 
 

Male Teachers Spanking Girls

April 2 2011, 11:06 AM 

Thanks for that Wilts guy ... thing is, you just don't know whether there was anything sexual in the episode or not, it wasn't in any way illegal although it might have been considered inadvisable.

It was probably well-deserved IMO - for a staff member supervising a school trip to find out that a pupil is AWOL somewhere in the wilds of Central London is terrifying.

 
 
Jenny

Re: My wife's experience

April 4 2011, 11:09 PM 

Hi WiltsGuy

I don't believe you've posted here before so, first of all, Welcome to this estimable Forum.

The slippering and caning of schoolgirls on their rears probably went on behind many a closed door. My wife took such a slippering a long time ago and was too embarrassed about to tell anyone for a very long time. Im sure what happened to her is not unique in the history of English schools.

It was quite common at my school and, in the case of the slipper, it wasn't behind closed doors either. I can understand your wife being embarrassed by being slippered, especially if girls were not normally so punished. Could much of that embarrassment have been caused by the relative rarity of girls being subject to CP. When I was at school, a girl was just as likely to get the slipper or cane as a boy was. As a result, we didn't feel any particular embarrassment, in fact the first time was something of a "rite of passage".

On this particular trip she had absolutely no intention of spending all day in a boring museum, and had plans to sneak away and go explore the shops in Oxford Street.

Did she have any idea of what the likely punishment would be if she were caught? I would have expected to get the cane for something like that but you say your wife had "never ever contemplated that this might be her punishment." Did she expect to be let off for being a girl?

She remembers that the pain was excruciating of course, but what was equally terrible was having to bend over in front of a male teacher.

She should think herself lucky she wasn't slippered by a female teacher. I was slippered by teachers of both sexes and, in general, the female teachers were the worse.

She told no one in over 30 years what happened that day, because she knew she would be the butt of her friends jokes if anyone found out; she told them she had just received an almighty telling off.

That suggests your wife's school was pretty lenient, at least in respect of girls. If I had told my friends I just got a telling off (however almighty) for pulling a stunt like she did, none of them would have believed me.

Do I think she deserved that punishment, well Im not sure, but I do think that she did deserve something really quite serious.

I think she got off lightly but that's comparing what she got with what I would have expected to get. What do you think you would have got for doing that?

Is it a surprise that a teenage girl was slippered by a male teacher? I hardly think so people back then enjoyed whacking female bottoms as much as some people do today. Just as paedophiles have historically sought employment with children, Britains teaching profession in the pre-1980s years provided ample opportunities for spankers to get their kicks also.

Although I agree that some teachers, of both sexes, might get a sexual kick out of administering CP, that teacher was just doing his job. It wasn't as if he punished her solely for his own gratification. It's quite likely he slippered her when he did to reduce the chances of her friend teasing her about it. See Dr Dominum's post in this thread here for a run down of changing attitudes.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

April 5 2011, 12:44 AM 

Hi Jenny and WiltsGuy,

First let me join Jenny in welcoming you to our happy circle.

Interesting reply Jenny and a useful posting you quote from Doc. I just wanted to comment on one aspect.

Doc says and I quote

Today, I once again have senior girls in some of my classes. 17 year old girls.

Objectively speaking, I can easily see that they are, physically, mature young women. Emotionally, and in terms of their apparent mental maturity, some of them are fairly close to being 'adults'. Statistically, I can hardly be unaware that it's likely that at least some of them are sexually active to some degree.

Guess, what I see when I look at them as their teacher in my classroom?

I see children. Schoolchildren. Just as much as 17 year old girls, as I do with the 12 year old boys I had in the period before.


That's where he and Mrs BB, on side side and myself and I guess the current Head of my old school on the other part company. Now probably when I go in to teach in the learning café I see young men and women who are very little different in mental maturity , sexuality , or emotional development than those I am used top dealing with daily in university. Even if it were legal I would no more think of caning them , than one of my Post Graduates.

Why? Well in Britain today the issue is probably helped by the fact that students either have no school uniform , or a mature uniform business suits/trouser suits etc. there are no school boys in Blazers and trousers, or schoolgirls in dresses etc . They also tend to be quite autonomous in running their own affairs, and are managed with a very light touch by school management .

Students in Britain today ACT in a more mature way than 40 years ago , and therefore expect to be TREATED in a different way. We argued for a cessation of caning in the 70's at sixth form level and won, but that wasn't an isolated issue . It went hand in hand with the expectation of other devolved choices, smoking in the common room , choice and freedom to match the position we saw late adolescents strive to achieve in society as a whole as a part of the flowering of the post 68 generation. .

Today most of that is taken for granted So when I meet a young adult today , that's how I naturally treat them , as sentient human beings able to make rational choices. Not as schoolgirls and boys who need hitting with a stick to thrash some sense into them . Its been a struggle , but from the beginnings in my generation , we now have got somewhere near our goals.

In my day no one really questioned the issue of same sex punishment ( and as you know Jenny I agree on the ability of women to punish every bit as hard as a man , if not more so ) .As Ive said before in my all boys school , the boys were allowed when Jackie was in place as deputy head , to request to be caned by a man ..but that reflected , I believe the misanthropic nature of our then head was was annoyed at the 'cheeseparing' governors transferring a acting Deputy from the Girls school , not appointing a full temporary replacement .To my knowledge no one chose a male caner for sexual reasons, those who did were simply trying to avoid meeting the extra pain from meeting the reputed 'hardest' caner in the school !!!!!

Doc's right in that society changes , and the past is another place where they do things differently, but then it also follows that nothing stays the same , and in England , at least, attitudes to students at the top end of school have changed. In the states attitudes have changed too . But at a different rate, but the paddling undertaken by Renee today is as different as chalk and cheese as that which Jackie undertook in her early years as High school principal in the late 70's .In fact the strides forward have been huge, and even were between Jackie s first and last years as a Principal ( sorry Paula and the Rev can't see that)

In Australia it seems this is much less the case with sixth formers still wearing uniforms similar to others in the school , and certainly in the Independent sector that 'modern maturity ' seems to be discouraged , both in the attitude of compulsion as well as punishment and expectations. But of course we shouldn't forget this is probably a cultural phenomena , after all Redlands was just starting a severe caning regime for boys and girls , at exactly the time here , that Eton was engaged in full scale abolition. Texas stood somewhere between the two , reducing its paddling yes by a factor of 10 over a decade , but , society wasn't, and still isn't ready for abolition. However Australia has a twist not seen else where, only recently Doc , discussing hair length , indicated that in the 70's his school 'liberalized' on this and some other issues, only to take that back as soon as they could , and tighten up again.

Back around 1970 when we believed there was likely to be a genuine long term change in mens fashions when it came to hair, we actually dramatically loosened our rules on such matters for about four or five years.

Discipline declined over that period of time - not because of the hair, in my opinion, although some people did try to blame that, but because other rules were relaxed at the same time that did matter and also because this was the brief period of 'radical change' in Australia - the Whitlam era. We went back to hair rules (though not as strict as they'd been before) as part of the general tightening up of rules.

Since then, there's been no real pressure for change


So it looks as thought at least in some independent schools there still is a backwoodsman tradition , that resents any concession from the 'traditional ' model . So perhaps there is a time lag .......between nations , just as there is progress between generations within nations, and like all these models its not a linear process.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

August 25 2011, 8:34 PM 

In 1909 parents were outraged at a man administering corporal punishment on 15 year old girls. They wanted his head. I don't know how it was resolved. Why is it that 100 years later that's exactly what male teachers are doing today? Some of that "indignity factor" is where prof n parts company with many here. I agree with hi age concerns and I do not believe in CP for lack of academic effort. Kudos to you prof n for arguing an unfavorably nuanced corporal punishment here and in your invaluable Melbourne caning. DD has been as quiet as cyber noise on this topic.

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

November 26 2011, 2:30 AM 


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

November 26 2011, 4:00 AM 

Hi American Way,

I trust you won't object to my repeating your link above in a font size where those of us on PCs who don't run our browsers at 5x magnification will be able to read it! And yes, I did notice! wink.gif But as I say, watch for fireworks when that celebratory post comes out. My five swat paddling with that fabled senior paddle is absolutely assured - probably twice over! Oops, wait, that's the wrong way round for this thread isn't it! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

Bonne Fete. Regardez Coiffure Rouge Flash Jeux.

 
 
Keith

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

November 26 2011, 9:15 AM 

Strange that an American article used the term "pupils". In my experience, Americans invariably use the term "students" to refer to school attendees, and would assume that "pupil" refers to a part of the eye.

 
 
Alan Turing

Bonne Fete. Regardez Coiffure Rouge Flash Jeux?

November 26 2011, 12:31 PM 

I followed that link to the Minneapolis Journal, and it seems much more interesting that, immediately after the article about spanking, there is the assertion

In some of the English towns striking a match on a lamppost means a fine if a policeman sees you.

Which English towns? I think we should be told. (Or perhaps an alternative punishment might be suggested.)

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 1 2011, 3:23 AM 

In this dramatization a male teacher dominates his all female charges. What Asian country is this from and is it common for a male teacher to have an old girl high school class? Necessity was the mother of invention when it came to finding an instrument of correction. Are these contemporary uniforms? Are they modified sailor school uniforms? They may be other corporal punishment scenes judging by this man's demeanor. He is not very likable. Is he? She seemingly knew how to push his buttons. Good for her.

http://youtu.be/7yKhsqFlVTs

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 1 2011, 11:56 AM 

Hi American Way,

You've linked the above YouTube video for us before, first link on this post.

I think it is probably a Republic of Korea (South Korea) production for two reasons:
  • When someone in the comments asks if it is Japanese another commentator says that no, 'coz school CP has been banned in Japan for some time and that it is Korean.

  • The video is watermarked tskscn.com. They are an outfit that amongst other things dub Korean videos into simplified Chinese.
The teacher certainly looks Korean. However for some reason (maybe an effect of the uniforms) the girls don't look particularly Korean to me. I wouldn't have said the uniform derived from the Japanese style 'sailor suit' uniform. Just a fairly typical contemporary formal uniform for the region.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 1 2011, 12:39 PM 

I was fully aware that I posted it and perhaps from now on I will explicitly state it. The theatrical nature of Korean school punishment was the reason why I posted different girls than the first time. Why under two threads? For, as I often state, all meaning is context derivative. A greater peccadillo, that surprisingly you did not call me on, was the Korean school punishment you previously posted. That was more serious an offense than the lack of self accreditation. With sincerity and appreciation I acknowledge your oft unrecognized and/or unheralded diligence. You have duly noted my abhorrence to your petty annoyances and said you would keep that in mind. While it may be premature to judge not lest I be judge, you're being almost as fair to me as Renee. I am at a loss whether this is done by chivalrous or cowardly motives. happy.gif You said paddling would do me no good so let say the hitting stops here.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 1 2011, 1:07 PM 

Hi American Way,

You've lost me I'm afraid, but I guess that sometimes happens both ways round. Two Nations divided by a single language as they say! wink.gif Don't forget that if you want a nice animated icon for Xmas to brighten up your posts you only have to tell me colours, pictures or whatever and display time for each. But remember they have to look reasonable in a very tiny format. So no massed ranks of the Sisters Of No Mercy, but we might get one or two very petite Sisters in if you so wished. happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 3 2011, 3:09 PM 

If it pleases my dear maestro of celebratory posts would you consider not transfering this to her thread for it might escape her attention. She may not read every thread. In case it did escape your attention, my friend, prof n just threw you under the bus for not posting of late in her thread. He had nothing better to do after his short hiatus than count the days since your last posting. One thing worse than an apple polisher and that's a snitch.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 3 2011, 7:30 PM 

Hmmmmm sad.gifsad.gifsad.gif

I expect if this continues to keep, my place in the social pecking order , I will have to call out American Way whilst ma'am isn't around !!!!!happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif I suspect that might get us both paddled . but if he continues to diss me, I shall have no socially acceptable alternative happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif Maybe he should reflect on Gramsci's fable of the beaver happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 3 2011, 8:19 PM 

Canes effugere cum iam non possit fiber
(Graeci loquaces quem dixerunt castorem
et indiderunt bestiae nomen dei,
illi qui iactant se uerborum copia),
abripere morsu fertur testiculos sibi,
quia propter illos sentiat sese peti.
Diuina quod ratione fieri non negem;
uenator namque simul inuenit remedium,
omittit ipsum persequi et reuocat canes.
Hoc si praestare possent homines, ut suo
uellent carere, tuti posthac uiuerent;
haud quisquam insidias nudo faceret corpori.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

December 3 2011, 9:12 PM 

Quite right, Prof.n, you tell him! Throwing me under the bus indeed! As if you would! Being from across the pond what American Way won't realise is that we Public Schoolboys stick together and watch each others backs. Well, most of the time anyway! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
American Way

John McKinney, Holmes Elementary Principal 1977.

January 26 2012, 6:17 AM 

The nightmare of a 40-year-old principal in 1977 from the infamous Florida Dade County of Gore/Bush Recount and Supreme Court Ruling.

January 27, 1977. Corporal Punishment? 31 to 21 girls to boys were paddled in 45 days.

CLICK

February 1, 1977 Capital punishment? Penultimate paragraph.

CLICK

February 8, 1977 Nightmare Continues.

CLICK

July 27, 1977 Trial Unfolds.

CLICK

Vindication retired at 62 with distinction. Florida House Bill 9442.1998

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 12 2012, 6:43 PM 

Wellington 1879

Teachers are more than thrashing machines, whose solo function it is to administer corporal punishment, and who derive a sort of fiendish satisfaction from witnessing the tortures of their devoted little victims......
As to the punishment of girls by the masters of our mixed schools, it strikes me very forcibly that all the thrashing they get will not materially assist in preparing them to receive with duo submission a "thrashing" at the hands of their lords and masters, if such should be their fate.

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 13 2012, 9:39 PM 

November 11, 1950 Just another UK day.

Stupid and indiscreet. happy.gif

CLICK

Off topic but too good not to share. Give the lad credit for it. happy.gif

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Nelson St School Auckland 1884

February 17 2012, 8:34 PM 

An anatomy of an incident of corporal punishment of a Mr Joseph Brazaban and girl Hicks. Why such a contretemps? Some may want to comment upon this case.

The case of an indignant pedagogue and corporal punishment of a female pupil.

April 26, 1884

CLICK

May 24, 1884

CLICK

June 7, 1884

CLICK

August 21, 1884

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 20 2012, 5:35 PM 

School Corporal Punishment April 13, 1854 as in Glasgow Missouri.

Corporal punishment on one of the largest, plumpest, and fairer girls in school. My hand and my heart too.

CLICK


 
 

Another_Lurker

But there wasn't any corporal punishment!

February 20 2012, 8:49 PM 

Hi American Way,

What a charming tale you highlight above! I was almost overcome with emotion for the happy couple, old softy that I am!

But you have it wrong in your narration. You say:

Corporal punishment on one of the largest, plumpest, and fairer girls in school.

The 1854 account makes it clear that, unlike the fictional schoolmaster in the first part of this post who caned his pupil and future bride severely, the schoolmaster in the newspaper account stayed the rod, or rather the ruler, and spared the young lady's fair hand the pain of chastisement (and the young lady the accompanying humiliation of being beaten in front of the class). As I say, I had perforce to wipe away a tear at such a happy outcome! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 20 2012, 10:30 PM 

I was touched as well for a girl so pleasingly plump. If the target was upon her plumpest portion I would have less a problem with that. He will have to look at her hands day and night. Do people ever think of that? Maybe people wouldn't see that so queer as in peculiar and odd.


 
 

Cowards

February 26 2012, 8:19 AM 

Any man who would get behind a closed door with a girl and tell her to stick her rear out so he can spank is not much of a man. He's a true, blue coward, and somebody needs to kick his butt. I think men who do this are the lowest form of life. I'll tell it to their face. They are disgusting creatures.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Cowards

February 26 2012, 11:46 AM 

Does anyone have a clue what the Revd Ditty is on about?

Most of the recent posts in this thread have referred to incidents in the 19th century. It is most unlikely that in that era a teacher would have told a girl, as the Revd delicately puts it 'to stick her rear out' in order to chastise her. And It sure as heck doesn't require much courage to threaten to give the teachers involved in the punishments described a good kicking - they aren't going to fight back! happy.gif

 
 
jd19

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 26 2012, 5:20 PM 

Male teachers using corporal punshiment on females does seem to sometimes evoke strong opinions. As a newcomer here I am unfamiliar with other members style of writing and certainly would not criticize anyones views but I would like to say as a female going through state education in the 1970`s I honestly never considered any of my teachers cowards. I can think of lots of other words to decsribe them -not printable on here! but not cowards.

I should point out I am probably not qualified to to have a view on this as I have never actually been subjected to cp by a male teacher - well apart from when I fell over precariously close to the waters edge whilst on a school trip and the deputy headmaster yanked me up and slapped my backside at the same time, presumably he thought I`d been messing about, it was not the slap that hurt (I was wearing about twenty layers anyway due to mums "just incase" attitude when going out on school trips I think she meant the weather though not protection against deputy headmasters!) no it was him wrenching my arm out of its socket as he pulled me up that caused me to yelp - at primary school there was only one male teacher, a male headmaster and the formentioned male deputy headmaster. All the class teachers I had used cp on both genders, I never got put in the male teachers class but had I been and he used cp which I presume he did, then it would never of accured to me that he could not or would not use cp on me due to my sex, nor would I have thought him a coward for doing so anymore than I thought that of my female teachers- like I said alot of other things but not cowards.

I am curious about the case American Way highlighted "stupid and indiscreet" (sorry never going to learn how to do the `here` things so no good shouting at me!`) this male teacher got sent to jail in 1950 for 4yrs for smacking his female pupils. What makes me curious is, it was according to the report a mixed school so did he not ever smack his male pupils? there is no mention of him doing so maybe that is what alerted the authorities that he was only singling out girls, but if that is the case then are seemingly lots of schools that only ever punished boys. How many female teachers only punishing boys came to the authorites attention? Also I note the school regulations stated corporal punishment of girls should only be carried out by a female teacher with a cane and on the hands hmmm.... know what I think of that! so if he breaking school regulations then how come he was not just sacked. If he was breaking the law by smacking females in 1950 then Im off to find me a lawyer! ok so it was a female teacher and I was in the 5-7 age bracket but it was 20yrs later so worth a shot methinks. I can not find smilie thingies but if I could I would insert tonge-in-check one here.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Cowards

February 27 2012, 2:50 AM 

Any man who would get behind a closed door with a girl and tell her to stick her rear out so he can spank is not much of a man.

By specifying that, he presumably thinks it's acceptable for a woman to get behind a closed door with a boy and tell him to stick his rear out so she can spank it. What a sexist he is.


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 27 2012, 7:56 AM 

1936. Six months for punishing girl. A 23 year male teacher hits a 13 year old girl 6 times with a garden hose and off to jail for 6 months. He considered 15 blows too many and and hit anywhere between 2 and 10 on a boy. The nature of the case beggars the question would it have been the same sentence if the culprit/victim received the same medicine was a boy. I searched for Bernadine Packer and she was in a 1st grade Christmas play in 1929 among Santa's Helpers. How could a girl turn so bad? From Instrument of Correction thread garden hoses were not as rarely used as one would imagine. Maybe that is where the childhood taunt up your nose with a rubber hose came from?

CLICK

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 27 2012, 10:09 AM 

American Way

You say " I searched for Bernadine Packer and she was in a 1st grade Christmas play in 1929 among Santa's Helpers. How could a girl turn so bad? From Instrument of Correction thread garden hoses were not as rarely used as one would imagine. Maybe that is where the childhood taunt up your nose with a rubber hose came from? "

I was wondering if this Bernadine Packer was the same Mrs Packer who used to dish out all sorts of corporal punishment at my school in the 1960s . Inevitably she was know as " Packer the Smacker" Her speciality was the leg slap , a very painful smack on the thighs , but she also used the slipper. Boys and girls were punished this way.

I was surprised that guy in Leicester got 4 years for spanking girls in 1950. I imagine there was a bit more to just spanking, but the papers didn't report all the details.In my day though , no male teacher ever spanked a girl, or for that matter caned them on the hand.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 27 2012, 4:17 PM 

Hi jd19,

As regards Mr Edmands and his conviction and four year sentence in 1950, we should note that he wasn't convicted of spanking girls. In 1950 I don't believe that he would have gone to prison for that even if, as in this case, it was contrary to the rules of his school or his local authority. It might be possible to find which it was by careful research on the excellent Corpun.Com Site as we have the date (1950) and the location (Exhall, near Coventry) but it is not important. It might have been unusual for a male teacher to smack girls on the bottom with his hand (a slipper, a strap or a ruler would have been safer and perfectly normal) but it wasn't against the laws of England, so for that alone, conducted with a normal punitive objective and reasonable force, he might have been sacked, but he certainly wouldn't have gone to jail.

My very esteemed fellow contributor Declan puts his finger on the crux of the matter in his February 27 2012, 10:09 AM post above. In 1950 newspapers didn't necessarily report everything that was said in court, and in court some matters might well be dealt with by euphemism and tacit agreement between the defence and prosecution rather than being openly discussed. I was at a mixed Junior School in November 1950 when the case took place, and 8 years old. The same type of school that Mr Edmands taught in, and the same age range as the 7 to 10 year old girls he spanked (clearly he didn't get to have a go at the top class of 10 to 11 year olds). It was a very very different England in those days.

Mr Edmands wasn't convicted of spanking girls. He wasn't convicted of spanking girls in front of a mixed class, that was perfectly normal in 1950. He wasn't convicted of spanking girls over his lap. I thank that would have been highly unusual for a male teacher to do in 1950, but I don't think it would have been illegal. Fathers certainly did that (there was a lot of domestic CP in 1950) and technically schoolteachers were In Loco Parentis. No, Mr Edmands was convicted of 'Improper Assault on Girls'. That's a quite different thing from just punishing them by spanking them. My guess is that he either let it be very obvious that he enjoyed the process, in a manner which disturbed the girls and/or the rest of class. Or maybe he adjusted their clothing to facilitate the spanking in a way the girls found unusual or frightening. Or (and this would be my guess) he did both. In 1950 teachers were rulers of all they surveyed in their own domain, and a few male teachers took advantage of that.

I hasten to add that possibly some female teachers did too. But in 1950 a female teacher adjusting a little (Infant or Junior School age) boy's clothing was perfectly normal. I, and lots of other little boys, had the legs of our short trousers unceremoniously hauled up as far as they'd go (which being fairly loose was some way) to have our thighs smacked in front of mixed classes by lady teachers. Here's an account of my own experience. But had that teacher instead taken us individually somewhere private and bared our bottoms to spank us, I certainly wouldn't have thought it outrageous, nor I think would any of the other children, boys or girls, and more importantly, nor would our parents. It didn't happen in that school, but it wouldn't have been looked on as outrageous if it had. I can speculate now that if it had happened it might have altered my whole future school career, because in fact it wouldn't have been half as embarrassing and attitude forming as the leg smacking in front of the class, but that's not important.

What is important is that lady teachers had a great deal of latitude. They could certainly spank or otherwise chastise young boys and girls on the bare in private. If they put a boy or girl over their knee nobody would have thought anything of it. They could and often did, in my school and many other schools, lift girls' skirts or dresses and chastise them on the knickers in mixed classes. Indeed, this seemed to be regarded as establishing some sort of level playing field because the material of dresses or skirts and the way they impeded punishment varied such a lot. Little girls were always doing handstands and similar things at playtime, so the exposure of knickers didn't raise any question marks. Similar arrangements with boys didn't seem to be thought necessary though doubtless could have been implemented if required. Provided they played due regard to decorum and didn't expose a child beyond accepted limits in front of other children, in 1950, for young children at least, lady teachers were beyond suspicion.

Not so male teachers. In 1950 male teachers didn't smack girls' legs (nor boys' legs either, but I think that was a man thing rather than any perceived sexual limit). They might punish boys on the bare, (though they didn't in my school, and I think even then it was uncommon except in some private and boarding schools) but if they did that in a mixed school they did it in private, and probably in a boys' school too. They might smack, ruler, strap, slipper or cane girls on the bottom, privately or in classes, mixed or otherwise, though smacking would have been just a teeny bit suspect, and caning would have been unusual in class. If other than completely stupid they didn't put the girl over their lap. Further, the girls skirt stayed exactly where posture put it.

In cases where exemplary and exceptional punishment was required for a girl a Headmaster or senior male teacher might punish her on her knickers. But it would almost certainly be in private, and there would be an adult female witness. One of my most esteemed lady fellow contributors was slippered by her Headmaster with her skirt raised at Junior school long after 1950. In the 1950s, and indeed on into subsequent years it was conceivable, if unusual, for such a punishment to be on the bare.

In the 1950s though, despite the above, a male teacher in a classroom context would be judged by much more rigorous standards than a female teacher where punishment of the opposite sex was concerned. Some chose to transgress those standards if they thought that they could get away with it. As noted above I think from the description of the court case that Mr Edmands thought he could get away with it, tried and failed. Putting his arms round girls to comfort them when they had to read to the class probably didn't help matters either. It doesn't matter if or how Mr Edmands punished boys in his classes. What he got knicked for was overstepping the mark with girls.

It is interesting to speculate, though it can be only speculation, that had one of Mr Edmands female colleagues enjoyed spanking little boys, and done so in front of a mixed class, putting the boys over her lap, possibly taking their shorts down, and smacking them over their pants, the class might have thought it a little unusual, the boys so spanked might have thought it a little embarrassing, but she certainly wouldn't have been prosecuted or jailed. If it was against school punishment rules she probably wouldn't even have been fired, just reprimanded and told to stop. And if she'd put her arms round boys to comfort when they had to read to the class everyone would have probably thought more highly of her!

But I don't think anything like as many women teachers then were inclined as exploit their position as were male teachers. Perhaps the strong social constrains of the time inhibited them from even risking seeming abnormal. I don't think very many men were so inclined either. However, in my last year at junior school, in 1954, one might have been. I still can't be 100% sure of his motives, though I think things were fairly conclusive. If he was committing an 'Improper Assault' he got away with it. Here's the account. It's very very long. Verbosity is one of my strong points! happy.gif There's a picture linked in it and the link doesn't work. I'm sure you are familiar with the garments in question, which play a key role, but if not the picture, courtesy of Our Manager Of Images and Key Member of The Management Team, Big John MOI, is to be found here. Don't ask why it is upside down, that's covered in another thread! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Corpun

February 27 2012, 8:48 PM 

I have let Mr Colin Farrell know that he is always welcomed to publish the fruits of my research. I have been advised to contact him but I know he checks in from time to time and I don't like sharing my email address.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 27 2012, 9:55 PM 

I really shouldn't post against the clock, as I did with my February 27 2012, 4:17 PM post above. It invariably results in a poor product lacking corroborating data, and, in this case at least, essential qualification. The lack of proper proof reading also gives rise to typing and grammatical errors, which I dislike in my own work.

So, the essential qualifications:

Except where otherwise stated I am talking about the late 1940s and early 1950s, and children of Junior School age or younger. Essentially up to 11, though due to the age regulations for sitting the 11+ examination this could mean nearly 12. I was only a couple of months or so short of my 12th birthday when the second linked account from my own experience took place.

I have tried to make it clear where I am discussing things which at the time would probably not have been regarded as unusual or a cause for concern if they had happened, and things which actually happened in my school or which I am as certain as I possibly can be happened in other schools at the time. I'll be amazed if someone doesn't think I have some things wrong, they usually do. If so lets discuss please.

And the corroborating data:

I was fairly sure that the excellent Corpun.Com site linked in my post above would have the answer as to whether by smacking girls over his knee Mr Edmands broke a school corporal punishment regulation (some schools had rules imposed by school governing bodies) or a Local Education Authority regulation. This page at Corpun.Com has considerable detail on LEA corporal punishment regulations. Scroll down to the cover of the STOPP publication (graphic of boy being caned) and in the text to the left you will find, in the words of Mr Farrell, Corpun.Com Webmaster, that:

Just one LEA, Coventry, bizarrely required all canings for both sexes, even at secondary level, to be applied to offenders' hands and not to their backsides.

Many here will echo the 'bizarrely', including it would appear from her post above, jd19.

So it was an LEA regulation that Mr Edmands broke at the Exhall, near Coventry, Junior School. The Corpun.Com article also says:

About half of all LEAs said that only women teachers could punish girls, but only two, Inner London and Oxfordshire, also laid down that only men could cane boys.

So presumably, from the Headmaster's statement in court that only female teachers could punish girls, Coventry was one of the former. There were over 100 LEAs. The fact that only two bothered to legislate same sex punishments for boys is indicative of the much greater licence enjoyed by female teachers that I mentioned.



Hi jd19,

I hope that we shall hear more from you about your own experience of school CP and that you will find sufficient of interest here to continue to visit and post. I will put some more about emoticons for you in this thread opened by Big John MOI.

You say in your above post:

I am curious about the case American Way highlighted "stupid and indiscreet" (sorry never going to learn how to do the `here` things so no good shouting at me!`)

I hope that I have given you some more information on the American Way report on the 'stupid and indiscreet (allegedly) Mr Edmands and his conviction. By the 'here' things I assume you mean links like that to the Corpun.Com page earlier in this post. Links, like most formatting things you see here, are actually quite easy to learn for anybody who wishes to do so. Take absolutely no notice of the current thread which might lead you to think otherwise. There are special considerations and some ancient history involved there!

If you wish to know about links, or any other formatting feature you see here, just ask in a post and one of an expert team dedicated to the dissemination of such knowledge will reply to you ASAP. Anyone doing so will need to take account of the fact that you format your posts in Word or a similar word processor. I only mention that here as they may not notice at the time of your enquiry and it has implications where some formatting things are concerned

 
 
Buddyguysghost

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 27 2012, 10:04 PM 

A most interesting tale from Another_Lurker, but can we really think of anything from our time at school that would merit such a condign sentence if it involved public corporal punishment?

I would wager the likelier possibility, were the punishment considered overly severe, or beyond decency's boundaries, would have been a black eye or the sack, as the children would inevitably have talked about it near other adults, probably because they were not used to, rather than upset by it.

The unfortunate probability of what really happened is best left out of this posting, I feel, so, Another_Lurker, if you or another delves further into a microfeish or on-line archive of the Coventry Evening Telegraph for 1950, please be warned, it may not make pleasant reading, even if the full detail is witheld.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 28 2012, 12:20 AM 

Hi Buddyguysghost,

I think if you re-read my post you will see that I suggest that something rather more than, as you put it, 'public corporal punishment' must have taken place to earn a 4 year prison sentence in 1950. Or have I emulated the newspapers, and indeed the court proceedings of the day, and been a little too discrete and used too many euphemisms?

The implication of 'Improper' in 'Improper Assault' is fairly plain and I said as much without going into graphic detail. I'm afraid I can't find on-line access from my PC to the Coventry Evening Telegraph archive (though I certainly don't claim to be an expert resource locator). The electronic archive certainly exists, but all the links I can find say that attendance at a specific location is required to access it. If you have such access, or you know from other sources what occurred, I suggest you post it, within reasonable limits of course - this is, as our Management often remind us, a family forum, but for the most part we're all adults - and the ones who aren't at least meet the age qualification for that status.

Aside from that I'll just say I don't play guessing games with other contributors except at the festive season, when we have a tradition of it. I was going to say put up or shut up, but I won't. You might suffer from the same fragility so many of our new contributors display and I really don't want to be accused of attacking you.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 28 2012, 12:59 AM 

For the follow up on Geoffrey Edmands 1950 male spanking of girls I researched the judge's name hoping to find more on the trail but to no avail. Well, to some off topic avail. Mr Justice Stable on the lighter and more official side.

One from Lord Elwyn-Jones at a dinner I attended years ago. Mr Justice Stable was about to open a criminal trial when one of the jurors asked to be excused. When the Judge asked why, the juror said, Because my wife is about to conceive this morning. The Judge replied I think you mean she is going to be confined, but whether you are wrong or I am wrong, it would seem to be an occasion on which you should be personally present! That must have been in the 1960s when I heard that, but total recall is a sign of senility

CLICK

The American Book The Philanderer.

CLICK

 
 
BuddyGuysghost

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 28 2012, 11:55 AM 

Well, Another_Lurker, I was not wishing to cross swords with you, so I will forebear. As long as you appreciate that, as a long-time reader of your posts, I will just state the facts here: I am a little older than you, and I am sure The Herbert (honestly!) Art Gallery in Coventry is somewhat more accessible from your lair near Sherwood Forest than mine in Manhatten.

It must be the Perth paper's original transcript that is causing such confusion. I suspect we can safely assume the spanking is the headline-writer's one indulgence to prurience, and was of no importance at all in the issue of proceedings being started in the first place.

One rather suspects the teacher's mentioning of this is to say that he did it publicly because he had nothing to hide in so doing, nor did the regulations preclude it being delivered in public. Where the Crown's case undoubtedly differed was about what took place privately, let us say.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 28 2012, 3:06 PM 

Hi BuddyGuysghost,

Could you be ....... No, surely not, why would you contribute under another name? But the style seemed strangely familiar last night, which prompted my reference to guessing games. And now it's just hit me why it's familiar. So if you are ...... Well in that case my immediate apologies. I hope you know that I wouldn't have attacked you like that under the other id, what with at least one successful collaboration in the past and us both holding such a unique honour 'an all! wink.gif

No, I am unlikely to visit The Herbert Art Gallery in Coventry, though as you point out they do have access to the archives of the Coventry Evening Telegraph from 1950. But have you ever driven in Coventry? The congestion is quite ludicrous. Frankly I'd sooner drive to the British Library in London, which also has such access. Since the archive is clearly electronic rather than microfiche I really can't see why they haven't simply put it on-line and had done with it.

I will reiterate my statement of last night, but much more politely, just in case ..... If you have some knowledge of this incident and the resulting court case I really do think that you should enlighten us, though putting two and two together and making five, perhaps you already have!

But if what you appear to suggest is true, why would the judge waste time talking about the corporal punishment regulations? By comparison with other matters they would have been completely irrelevant. And yet he appears (the PDF is poor quality) to have said that in some parts of the country [precious few in 1950 - my note] corporal punishment was not allowed and he thought the regulations should be uniform.

Why indeed would the corporal punishment feature in the court case at all if what you seem to be hinting at is correct? Mr Edmands had no right to smack girls over his knee at all, or boys for that matter, publicly or otherwise. All punishments should have been on the hand with a cane, and only women should have punished girls. So sack him and let the law deal with the other much more serious issue. But I'd have thought he'd have got a great deal more than 4 years, whereas that's about right for what I was assuming.

Sorry, but I really do think you have to be more specific. Failing that, do we have readers out there on the ground in the proximity of the Herbert Art Gallery in Coventry (or the BL reading room in London) who can spare the time to go and look the Coventry Evening Telegraph report up and enlighten us?

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 29 2012, 1:51 AM 

Hi jd19

It's good to have another woman posting here. I've been meaning to reply to your post for the last couple of days

You say -
Male teachers using corporal punshiment on females does seem to sometimes evoke strong opinions.

For some, mainly men it seems, the idea of anyone using CP on females evokes strong opinions. Interestingly, when I said that using CP with boys but not girls is unfair (n.b. I didn't say which sex it was unfair to) I was told that, as a woman, I had no right to say what was fair or unfair for boys - even though I didn't. Some men, however, seem to think they have the right to dictate what happens girls.

I should point out I am probably not qualified to to have a view on this as I have never actually been subjected to cp by a male teacher...

I was slippered by teachers of both sexes and caned by two headmistresses and a headmaster. Overall, the men tended to go a bit easier (on both boys and girls) than the women did. That could have been because the women didn't want to appear weak or, possibly, they just didn't know their own strength.

That you don't have that experience doesn't prevent your having an opinion or imagining how you would have felt if it had happened. As you said -
All the class teachers I had used cp on both genders, I never got put in the male teachers class but had I been and he used cp which I presume he did, then it would never of accured to me that he could not or would not use cp on me due to my sex, nor would I have thought him a coward for doing so anymore than I thought that of my female teachers- like I said alot of other things but not cowards.

I liked and had a lot of respect for my teachers, including those who punished me. I was always treated fairly and given the benefit of doubt. Like you, I wouldn't say any of them were "cowards".

What makes me curious is, it was according to the report a mixed school so did he not ever smack his male pupils?

You're a little younger than I but, even in the 1970's, sexism still was very common in schools. As you know, many schools had policies of not punishing girls - boys, however, could be beaten at will. Stephen Hutchings told (here) how he was slippered in place of a girl. It's clear that the teacher in that case was something of a pervert who picked on boys in an attempt to cover his tracks. There are links to other examples of double standards in my post here.

Also I note the school regulations stated corporal punishment of girls should only be carried out by a female teacher with a cane and on the hands hmmm.... know what I think of that!

My first caning was three strokes on my hand. I'm totally opposed to caning hands because of the risk of causing permanent damage. Also, in my experience, it hurt more than getting it across my bum.


 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 1 2012, 1:09 AM 

Hi Another_Lurker

So presumably, from the Headmaster's statement in court that only female teachers could punish girls, Coventry was one of the former. There were over 100 LEAs. The fact that only two bothered to legislate same sex punishments for boys is indicative of the much greater licence enjoyed by female teachers that I mentioned.

It could, instead or as well, be indicative of the complete lack of consideration for boys' feelings - in those days, they weren't meant to have any.


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 7 2012, 1:58 AM 

Simply search for these two entries and you will find a video of twice as many swats than what would be occurring in the states. There is no nudity. The first I posted here with her histrionics when it was on you tube for a very short period of time. The second breaks the paddle.

A Real Teen volunteers for Real School Paddling Video

Another teen girl receives a school corporal punishment paddling

 
 
American Way

I am no Sir Galahad....

March 8 2012, 12:01 AM 

Male teachers flogging 10 year-old-girls in 1889.

CLICK

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 17 2012, 7:59 PM 

2012/03/15 By Sarah Gonzalez Miami

Our story on Florida schools that paddle students was picked up by NPR and weve gotten some comments from folks who wondered about a sexual element to spanking.

John Shelley wrote: "Why do they hit the kids in the butt? Is this a sexual thing?" Conky Swayze wrote: "Theres so much sexual connotation with spanking that it does walk in that grey area.

Some who have been on the receiving end of a paddle say people outside of their community just dont understand their culture.

Melynda Howell is the guidance counselor at Sneads High School in Jackson County Fla., which uses corporal punishment.

She graduated from the high school and said the last time she got a spanking from a male principal, she was 13 years old, and she had gotten in a fight with another girl in the school.

We dont see any sexual element whatsoever, Howell said. The principal was a male authority figure just like my father, so there was no difference to us, to me.

Sneads, Fla. is a small town in the Florida Panhandle with a population of about 2,000.

Howell says in this part of the rural north, high school girls and boys are not considered too old to get a spanking at school.

Most kids in our area have that type of discipline at home so theyre more comfortable with it in the school environment, Howell said.

If you dont experience that in California or at home, of course you would not be as comfortable with that at the school level.

Schools with paddling polices are required by law to bring in a witness, and notify the parents after the punishment is administered.

But most schools volunteer to ask parents for permission before students are paddled. The Community Trusts School Administrators

Some Florida schools, like Sneads High School, have polices where school administrators can only spank students of the same gender.

The principal of the school, Laurence Pender, says he has never hit a female student. For that he calls in his assistant principal, Faye Parker.

But Pender says his small town would support him if he did paddle female students. He says parents expect him to act like a parent to students under his supervision.

Its not something that is joked about or laughed about. Its a very serious thing, Pender said. Its punishment.

Schools that want to use corporal punishment have to apply every three years, and hear testimony from parents in the community.

Outside of the Panhandle, the community in rural Madison, Fla. decided high school students are too mature to get paddled, according to Willie Williams, principal at Madison County Central elementary and middle school.

The community decided teenage girls and boys in middle school can still be paddled. And Williams says the community trusts the school administrators to discipline students in this way.

He says school corporal punishment works well in a small town because everyone knows each other.

If I were in a big community, where I wasnt known, where I didnt get a chance to speak at church... for students to know that I know their parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles, I dont think it would be possible in an urban area. I really dont.


 
 
de Wolf

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 18 2012, 12:24 PM 

Contrary to what some believe male teachers did use corporal punishment on girls. It, in some cases was frowned upon in some schools.
The subject seems to invoke controversial debate, where some believe it just didn't happen. I have been looking at much earlier posts where someone called Fran was pilloried for stating she was slippered by a male teacher.

 
 
KK

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 18 2012, 10:09 PM 

de Wolf,

I think the issue is when and where male teachers may have punished girls at school, the ages of the girls and the nature of the punishment rather than being a simple question. Different cultures had and have different standards and expectations. These have changed over time.

At my schools it would have been quite unthinkable for a male teacher to have punished a girl over 10 years of age. It was specifically forbidden by education board bylaws and was in any event, not socially acceptable. Punishment of younger girls was rare and involved strapping on the hands only.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 18 2012, 10:36 PM 

Hi de Wolf,

You say above:

Contrary to what some believe male teachers did use corporal punishment on girls.

They certainly did! I have seen it with my own eyes and my very distinguished fellow contributor Jenny has been on the receiving end of it. The matter is absolutely beyond doubt or query!

I am happy to see that you have been delving in the archives and have encountered distinguished former contributor Fran of Wembley. Fran was well before my time, but I have a particular interest because:
  • Like my alter ego, Brian of Nottinghamshire Community, Fran is an Honorary Life Member of this estimable Forum.

  • Fran was given 'six of the best' with a slipper whilst wearing  bottle green gym knickers . It is widely believed here that I attach some sort of iconic significance to said garments.

  • Another distinguished former contributor I greatly admired, Lotta Nonsense, claimed to have proved conclusively that Fran was a man, though I have never been quite sure how.

  • A year or two ago my very esteemed fellow contributor A_Lurkologist took to occasionally accusing me of being Fran of Wembley. Something to do with prose style, use of parentheses, and fine and detailed discrimination in descriptions I understand.
Naturally I deny the latter allegation absolutely. I have only been slippered once in my life and to the best of my recollection I was wearing grey short trousers not  bottle green gym knickers . No, not even underneath said grey short trousers! Nonetheless, I did research Fran to some extent, and as a fellow student you may be interested in my researches, complete with many interesting links, some of them even outwith this estimable Forum! wink.gif

 
 
prof n

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 19 2012, 2:08 AM 


In elementary/primary school in my experience both boys and girls were slippered by either sex. Most students 'got it ' at some time or another , and there was some glee in seeing a 'goody goody ' of either sex slippered. actually the slipperings were not particularly hard ....but as I've written elsewhere the same cannot be said for the beltings of our Scottish Headmistress.....and she didn't give a ....(whatever) about the sex of the miscreant .

Equally I can show you places in the South of the US where such punishment doesn't raise any eyebrows at all even today ....and in the 1970's that was pretty universal across the good ol' South as a whole .

It seems to have been that these issues raised their heads where girls , and indeed women were seen as precious , gentle things, to be protected at all cost. I was brought up in the North of England, and my experience of America has been in the old agrarian areas , where these traditions hold fast , in areas where the harsh reality of life often penetrates the civilized metro style society. Although I live in one of the most affluent pockets in the North , I think one would have difficulty as a man getting you eyebrows waxed anywhere round here ! Let alone male Botox.

Perhaps things might change when we have built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land.......but it will take years to change rural areas like mine, let alone those who live by Blake's ' dark satanic mills'

That's why you can't judge yesterday by today's standards. .

 
 

Another_Lurker

Good heavens! How on earth can you live without eyebrow waxing and wrinkle botoxing!!

March 19 2012, 3:02 AM 

Hi Prof.n,

You said above:

Although I live in one of the most affluent pockets in the North , I think one would have difficulty as a man getting your eyebrows waxed anywhere round here ! Let alone male Botox.

Blimey! You must live in a REALLY deprived area! wink.gif A quick Google tells me that here in this run-down former mining, former just about everything else area, with one of the worst youth unemployment situations in the UK, I could get both at three establishments within a couple of miles of home! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 19 2012, 12:56 PM 

Good to see one of my rare original postings is being revived. I can confirm that I never saw a male teacher administering corporal punishment to a girl, but as others have said this did happen quite frequently in those dim and distant days of the 60s and 70s . My one exception is a " joke " slippering given my a male teacher to a girl on a school trip . Just a little tap , and all in jest, but she did have to bend over for it.

A_L you said

"Blimey! You must live in a REALLY deprived area! A quick Google tells me that here in this run-down former mining, former just about everything else area, with one of the worst youth unemployment situations in the UK, I could get both at three establishments within a couple of miles of home!"

I have no idea how many establishments near me provide these services , but it doesn't interest me.

As for the " Bottle Green" reference , I ought to say that I have not seen the "Bottle green" girl or the Jess Ennis girl for many weeks. Could be , that they have caught on and go a different way to school.( but just to be serious I go to work much later than I used to)

 
 
de Wolf

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 20 2012, 12:11 AM 

Hi Another_Lurker,

You certainly can't have stronger evidence than actually witnessing an event.

Intriguing and interesting links on your post, and being honest the post from Fran seems genuine. At the time she stated she was slippered by the male teacher, without question, events such as these were quite common. If she had said she was slippered at a mixed assembly, after the teacher concerned had removed her bottle green knickers, it would have been viewed as unlikely, to say the least.

I wouldn't know the difference between the writing style of a male or female, if indeed there is one. People develop their own writing styles depending on the type of job they do, or perhaps their own personality or both, so to me Fran's post appeared genuine.

 
 
jd19

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 20 2012, 12:04 PM 

Hi de Wolf - (wonderful name by the way)

I am glad you mention different styles of writing between the genders and the question of whether the poster is male or female. It is something I have wondered about since I have been reading this forum.

It seems, in the earlier years at least, female posters recounting CP experiences were quite often not believed and accused of actually being male. Some of the posters obviously were fun posters but others to me seemed genuine.

Two things that I do not really understand
1) Why some people both men and women seem not accept females were ever subjected to CP - I have my self have had an irate man tell me I could have no experience of CP because girls `never got it` I had not even at that stage even told him I had, he just got a annoyed that a female was even joining in a CP debate.

2) At the risk of sounding very naive, why do/would males write as a women? I guess because they enjoy what they are writing, but are there not other forums for that sort of writing? Why not just write on those and have people read and enjoy them rather than posting on a forum where you are likely to be disbelieved.

I have never been received CP from a male, all my class teachers at primary school were female, the head was male and he used the cane on boys and girls. I do not think he used it very often but a female friend of mine received it as did another friends younger sister. In the case of the sister, her parents were outraged, they had moved to the area about a year before, obviously the school she had previously attended did not use CP or at least did not use it on girls, they complained to the head but I do not know what the outcome was, I should not imagine they got much joy from him though!

At Secondary school only the headmaster or deputy headmaster caned the boys and the head of girls caned the girls. To be honest to me that was just the way it was at that school. I did receive the cane and it was a horrible painful experience, but I do not think it mattered at the time who was applying it I just had to grit my teeth and take it! had it have been applied by a male I doubt I would have said or even thought `you can`t do this you are male`.

 
 
KK

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 20 2012, 8:34 PM 

Very few on this forum have claimed that male/female school spankings never occurred anywhere and anytime. Ssome posters have certainly been highly skeptical of many reported M/f spankings, often with good cause.

For me, warning signs are a lack of details about when (decade) and where (city or state) the claimed spanking occurred, combined with a lot of salacious detail about the event, details that few would recall decades after a traumatic experience.

I would guess males pretending to be a spanked female is much more common than a female falsely claiming to have been spanked while a teenager by a male teacher. Contemporary news reports make it clear that many communities found such practice abhorant in the period of compulsory education.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 20 2012, 9:41 PM 

Hi jd19

Two things that I do not really understand
1) Why some people both men and women seem not accept females were ever subjected to CP - I have my self have had an irate man tell me I could have no experience of CP because girls `never got it` I had not even at that stage even told him I had, he just got a annoyed that a female was even joining in a CP debate.

For some men, denying girls were ever subject to CP helps them maintain their illusion of superiority. They consider girls too weak to withstand CP so have to dismiss any evidence to the contrary. As you discovered, they can become angry when their illusions are challenged. Some other men, who accept it happened, oppose CP for girls for the same reason.

Others, of both sexes, perhaps having been brought up in a sexist environment, are simply unaware it happened. Girls were exempt from CP in a lot of schools. Those who attended such schools could easily form the view that such policies were universal. If, over time, they became conditioned to think of girls as too weak they would have difficulty accepting the fact that girls were able to withstand CP.

2) At the risk of sounding very naive, why do/would males write as a women?

That question is probably best answered by those who make that claim. Presumably they have some reason for their beliefs.

I can see why a woman might want to write as a man. Some women in business hide the fact they're female in initial correspondence because the other person is more likely to take them seriously if they believe the writer is male. It's happened to me a few times. It's quite funny when we each discover the other is female - not that it should matter anyway.



 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teacher Correcting Female Misbehavior.

April 9 2012, 3:59 PM 

I notice a trend there was a historic enthusiasm by kindred spirited teachers between male teachers when correcting female scholars. Not due to salacious or biblical motives but an exasperation factor. How does one deal with 2012 teenage girl's obstreperousness? Who can say with a straight face that that after 125 years anything has changed?

1887: Marchioness.

CLICK

1892: Teacher meant business. "All right," said he, taking out his watch, "I'll give you just thirty minutes to get that lesson, and if it is not ready at the end of that time I'll take you across my knee and give you one of the most comprehensive, unabridged and able-bodied spankings that have occurred since Julius COiear was an infant.

CLICK



 
 
American Way

Neither Frank or I are tired.

April 12 2012, 9:26 PM 

Granted that them three should know this simple rule but I am with TWP to absolutely make verboten corporal punishment be used due to under performing even if perceived to be in the child's best educational advancement interest by an experienced teacher and even if it seems obviously due to the child's lack of effort.

CLICK






 
 
KK

Grammar or Grandma

April 12 2012, 10:41 PM 

Fancy not knowing how to use the word " or "!

It is a well know fact that education standards and child behaviour has deteriorated steadily since the beginning of time. Standards were once much higher (when pain was used to encourage learning).

The introduction of compulsory education was coupled with the introduction of standards of achievement - standard 1 to 6 in British tradition schools, and presumably corresponding grades in the USA.

The first UK law (circa 1870) set up local school boards with power to establish bylaws optionally requiring children to attend school between the ages 5 to 13 years, or until they reached the 5th standard. (The bylaws were needed to allow facilities to be established and essential child labour to be retained during a transition period.)

Readers were published to establish or demonstrate the required standards, e.g. The School Board Readers. Standard V. 1872

I reached the fifth standard around age 11 or 12, and am now impressed at how accomplished I must have been, going by the above reader.

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

April 13 2012, 11:24 AM 

There is an interesting contribution on the Digital Spy forum about the soap Emmerdale. There is a current storyline about adult literacy. A regular female poster descibes how she made a spelling mistake in a school test in the 1960s and got a hard smack on her leg from the headmaster. When she got home her mother asked her about the red mark on her leg and she told her that she got it for a spelling error. Her mother then gave her another smack on the other leg

 
 

Another_Lurker

That 'Digital Spy' Post

April 14 2012, 3:55 AM 

Hi Declan,

For the benefit of any of our readers who are interested but can't be bothered to Google it here is the post1 that you describe.

You let the lady concerned off lightly when you say:

A regular female poster descibes how she made a spelling mistake in a school test

In fact, shock, horror2, the smack on the back of her leg from the Headmaster was for cheating in the spelling test, which she admits. She also had to stand in the corner for the remainder of the lesson concerned prior to being sent to the Headmaster. Life was tough for youngsters in those far off days of (I'm guessing) the end of the 1950s! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

1Note to All:  The link should take you to the relevant page of the thread at Digital Spy and then automatically scroll down to the post concerned. Frustrated at trying to make what should be a simple file editing program work correctly I awarded myself a little diversion by attempting to crack the address mechanism for individual posts at Digital Spy. Little things please little minds, as they say! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif If the link doesn't automatically scroll to the correct post in your browser then scroll down manually to post #397, about three-quarters of the way down the page.

2Using the words 'shock, horror' has reminded me that a similar usage and complications consequent thereon got me into a spot of bother in another thread, and that certain matters there remain outstanding! sad.gif If you're reading this Renee I haven't forgotten. Everything will eventually be dealt with to the best of my ability, but sadly I've been very busy. It's not that I haven't been suffering for my sins. IMHO (and I suspect that my very greatly esteemed fellow contributor who does a lot more programming than I do would possibly concur) 5 swats a day from your 'Kaye' paddle must be preferable to programming in BASIC! sad.gif

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

April 14 2012, 6:04 AM 

A_L

How on earth did you find that Digital spy post. There are literally hundreds of posts every day on the Emmerdale forums. Something like 300 or so when the programme is in progress, though most of them consist of posters saying hello to each other, though that particular post is on another thread. I dare say you have identified my own name on there ( but please don't publish it on here)

I was being kind to that lady on DS , yes , the smack was for cheating. I think she said she is 61 , so it would be late 50s

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: That 'Digital Spy' Post

April 14 2012, 9:02 AM 

Hi Declan,

You asked:

How on earth did you find that Digital spy post. There are literally hundreds of posts every day on the Emmerdale forums.

Providing you accept its very dodgy privacy implications (even dodgier now in view of the intentions of the control freaks in our useless government) Google is a wonderful tool for finding anything on the web, be it text or picture. If you have a few words from a text Google will find the web sites where that text appears . If you have a picture, (or sometimes even a part of a picture) Google will find all the web sites it appears on, regardless of the size it is published at, be it 240×180 or 3200×2400 (or any other range of sizes).

In this case I just searched for:

"digital spy" spelling headmaster smack leg

exactly as shown, all lower case and double quotes as indicated. The first hit on the first page of hits was obviously the correct area and took me to here which is the top of page 16 of (currently) 20 pages of the thread. I then scrolled down manually to the post itself, post #397 (the page starts with post #376). Since I needed something to take my mind off my programming problems I worked out how the Digital Spy post addresses work so that I could make a link go straight to the target post. It's actually much simpler than the system here. It took Jenny to crack ours after I'd failed miserably! sad.gif I won't bore you with the details, but if the Digital Spy method is any use to you just say so and I'll put it in Computing Corner.

You also said:

I dare say you have identified my own name on there ( but please don't publish it on here)

I didn't look. But in any event fear not! The A_L brain, or at least what remains of it, takes in all sorts of things but is highly resistant to letting some of them out again.

Incidentally you probably noted that the spelling test cheating lady said of her punishment by the Headmaster that 'he smacked the back of my leg', which I suspect implies a smacking rather than a single hard slap. She probably got the same treatment that was meted out to the girl in front of me and the other girls in the punishment parade at my nemesis back in 1949. I can confirm from personal experience that done by an expert (and the young lady teacher who dealt with me certainly was sad.gif) the technique was extremely painful and left a distinct red patch on the thigh for quite long enough for the girl's mother to notice it when she got home.

It was a very common way of punishing young (and sometimes not so young) girls and boys around the 1950s when girls wore dresses or skirts exclusively and boys wore short trousers until 13 or 14. A few people, mainly girls, got it even in my last year at Primary (Junior as was then) school in 1954. I really think you should ask the Digital Spy contributor about it. wink.gif Say you've heard stories of children being punished like that in the 'bad old days' but are very surprised it ever happened, surely it was unduly embarrassing for them and wouldn't have been allowed etc., etc. Link my post if you wish, we could certainly do with a vast influx of new contributors! But don't do it under your own name, for obvious reasons! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

April 30 2012, 7:57 PM 

Male teacher caning girls. The girls who gesture jocularly at 1:36 resct quite differently when it is their turn. It is peculiar, as I have mentioned before, the saving of dignity that comes from not asking the girls to make their bottoms more accesible or vulnerable by bending over. In this school the girls seeem naughtier than the boys. One is left to wonder if the teacher was a woman would the media have taken as much an interest?

http://www2.luocweb.com/24h/tin-tuc-trong-ngay/thuc-hu-clip-thay-danh-hang-loat-nu-sinh-c46a443096.news

It doesn't take much to amuse me but this translation did. "Teacher uses wooden size girls butt series"

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 1 2012, 1:00 PM 

Vietnam SCP Addendum

The female teacher was hit in the butt to use the exact size as a student of the Hong Duc Private High School, Ho Chi Minh.

http://m.24h.com.vn/tin-tuc-trong-ngay/thuc-hu-clip-thay-danh-hang-loat-nu-sinh-c46v443096.html


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 1 2012, 2:32 PM 

Translation of above posting. What does "batch" mean in this contex? Is there a more felicitious translation? Why is it never six of the best and it usually maximizes at five? Vietnam has a French connection and does not share in the "English Vice". wink.gif


CLICK




 
 
Confused

Question

May 1 2012, 9:08 PM 

I cannot figure out which one is the teacher. Is it the one in the black slacks.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 2 2012, 12:36 AM 


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Question

May 2 2012, 10:56 PM 

Hi Confused,

You say above:

I cannot figure out which one is the teacher. Is it the one in the black slacks.

As a certain tennis player used to say to the court officials, you cannot be serious! But just in case you are I'll give you a clue. It isn't any of the ones in trousers with white stripes down the sides or in red skirts, not even the one who squeals at full volume when her bottom is whacked. There, I hope that helps by narrowing down the field a little! happy.gif

But wait! Perhaps you are confused by computer auto-translations of the page. Phrases like

The female teacher was hit in the butt to use the exact size as a student of the Hong Duc Private High School, Ho Chi Minh.

and

If the teacher depending on the degree of violation will have to get the corresponding discipline.

certainly don't aid comprehension. However I can be reasonably sure that I am correct when I assure you that in the clip no female teachers were hit in the butt, and neither was a teacher of either sex in receipt of any 'corresponding discipline'. Of course there's no telling what happened when filming ceased .... happy.gif

Perhaps one shouldn't be too critical though. To misquote Dr Samuel Johnson, computer auto-translation of web pages between a whole host of languages is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all. And we'd better not go into what Dr Johnson was actually commenting on, but to avoid bringing down the inevitable nuclear missile on my head I'll just say that naturally I strongly condemn such sexist notions, even on the part of the immortal lexicographer! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 3 2012, 1:53 AM 

A_L Chances are it is the translation but who is to say there may have been a Vietnamese teacher counterpart of yours ready and willing to climb belly down and bottoms up across the desk? It sure beats the paddle ready brace position. Easier on your back. Proclivities are not necessarily perversions so don't be offended. I cannot criticize for my hands are not clean.

How fair was he? Did he defer to one gender or was it all score related? How will these children succeed without him? Does that teacher want to punish the student who filmed the punishment or was he unconcerned? Was he unaware that the students were gesturing to a camera? Or could he care less? A_L could you please give a time in the video that bear close watching?

Since the canings happened quite a while ago there does not seem to be any follow up stories. Let us give it a gander or two occasionally.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

May 3 2012, 3:12 AM 

Some shots of male corporally chasting a femnale student.

CLICK

CLICK

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Castigo Corporal

May 28 2012, 3:10 AM 

Bilingual paddling.

CLICK

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Amende Honorable

June 6 2012, 10:01 PM 

1884 A Card Explanatory - An Amende Honorable.

CLICK

Half way down and fifth column from the left.

Will B. Dale makes it very clear what he thinks of Professor Garlow who wielded the leather strap upon a girl.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

June 11 2012, 1:42 AM 

Curious caning of two girls.

Catherine McNair. 1916. New Zealand. Be Kind.

CLICK

Lily Luke. 1910. Australia. Length of Cane.

CLICK

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teacher Correcting Female Misbehavior.

July 14 2012, 4:04 AM 

1871. "I NEVER WILL FORGET YOUR UNGENTLEMANLY CRUELTY - NEVER, NEVER!" SHE SAID STERNLY AS A MAN MIGHT HAVE SPOKEN.

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 23 2012, 1:06 AM 

Jack W Eberle Girl Paddler. The man really tried to be stern even looking himself in the mirror.

April 19, 1956 Paddling of Girls Necessary to Keep Order, Teachers Says. He whammed the fifth.

CLICK

Judy Smith. Hit me with your best shot. Fire away.

CLICK

CLICK

1940 Census. He is for real. It would appear that he was involved bible translation. I'm glad he found a niche.

http://www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Pennsylvania/Jack-W-Eberle_qk04y

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

November 7 2012, 5:54 AM 

Corporal punishment roots are deeply embedded in country schools before scholars in the latter part of the 19th century proposed persuasion over corporal punishment. This is just one example.

CLICK

Could a young schoolmaster think of feruling a girl with her hair in ringlets and a gold ring on her finger?Impossible -- and the immunity extended to all little sisters and cousins; and there were enough large girls to protect all the feminine part of the school.

According to this passage, it would be improper to whip a young woman who is past a certain age, though the author doesn't specify what that age might be. Possibly the "gold ring on her finger" means that some of the female students are married, a strong possibility, since marriage age starts at 16 or younger and students' ages often range into their 20's. A number of 19th century school tales include married students.

As was typical, the schoolmaster ruled by the "rod of power." Corporal punishment was the prevailing discipline of the day, and as a first year teacher unsure of how to conduct a classroom, he erred on the side of overuse. A ferule is a ruler the schoolmaster keeps at the ready for quick punishment of minor infractions. His switches, branches cut from neighboring trees, are generally reserved for the more formal and severe punishments conducted in front of the classroom.

 
 
American Way

Gender Disparity of Consent Requirements

February 21 2013, 4:37 AM 

The girls needed parental consent but not the boys and the boys chose to be paddled but so many girls. Near graduation they could be 17 to 19 years old. I hate to sound like Jeff Charles but at that age I hope those men were not getting their kicks from giving licks. At that age gender issues need to be attended to IMHO. I wonder if that's why they built in that disparity of consent requirements.

CLICK


 
 
Jenny

Gender Disparity of Consent Requirements

February 21 2013, 11:58 AM 

Hi American Way

It was just pure sexism, nothing more. The boys were about the same age as the girls so their ages could not have been a consideration. The girls needed parental consent because, being girls, sexists presume they have inferior brains so are incapable of making decisions for themselves.

Note, also, the difference in the alternatives. Boys had the alternative of being excluded from enrolment the following year; girls had the alternative of sweeping the car-park. That could explain why more boys opted for "licks".

You say that "at that age I hope those men were not getting their kicks from giving licks."

Maybe they only got their kicks from giving boys "licks", it wasn't uncommon in UK schools. The widely different alternatives appear to have been intended to make "licks" a more attractive option for boys.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 2:29 PM 

Jenny How do you feel about schools requiring a female present when a male paddles a girl? Is this a veiled assumption that men are likely to hit too hard for woman's more delicate derrieres without the moderating influence of a female present? Is this a veiled assumption that men may take "liberties" or would be more likely to get their kicks from licks than women? Enquiring minds want to know?




 
 

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 2:44 PM 


I think your analysis is spot on jenny. Could it also be that the college perceives the real problems emanating from a sub set of the male 'miscreants' , who may not be the best academic performers , so lets bid them if they don't want swats, Whereas with the girls give them some 'woman's work', so lets give them a bin to fill!!

I suspect most of the young ladies I know today of that age would take the licks, They wouldn't be seen being 'categorised' as either second rate or 'soft and fragile'.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 2:48 PM 

Hi American Way

Jenny How do you feel about schools requiring a female present when a male paddles a girl?

I don't see anything wrong with that provided the school also requires a male to be present when a female paddles a boy.

Is this a veiled assumption that men are likely to hit too hard for woman's more delicate derrieres without the moderating influence of a female present? Is this a veiled assumption that men may take "liberties" or would be more likely to get their kicks from licks than women?

It could simply be to protect the man from malicious accusations of improper conduct. If so, women administering CP deserve the same protection. A female's presence wouldn't prevent a girl being hit too hard. In my experience, women tended to hit girls harder than men did.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 3:01 PM 

Hi prof.n

I suspect most of the young ladies I know today of that age would take the licks, They wouldn't be seen being 'categorised' as either second rate or 'soft and fragile'.

That could have been true then. It would explain why the girls were required to get their parents' consent if they wanted to opt for licks.

I considered the possibility that girls might have been considered less likely to want to enrol for the following year so, being prohibited from doing so wouldn't have been much of a punishment. However, if that were the case, the boys could still have been offered the alternative of sweeping the car-park.


 
 

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 3:34 PM 


hi Jenny,

Just thinking about it , its really rather strange.In the 1970's there was the start of women once again taking control of schools in the south. In the early 20th century and before a female Principal was no surprise, then the tradition faded, and all men ( as often in the north) took over. In the 70's probably as a result of the women's movement Women Principals and vps' became more common. Now from those that I know of that generation today none of them ever thought twice, they gave licks to anyone who deserved it ! Now during earlier years to judge by anecdotes, records and photos, there were a large number of women teachers. in those days most teachers paddled, and it appears again there was no isue of sex discrimination.

I dont think anyone ever complained they couldn't paddle hard enough either!

again I know from taking to these men and women that in their 'schooldays' paddling was unisex, sometimes even done at the same time , for example if a couple of candidates for talking in class were dealt with in the corridor.

So in social terms it is odd that after 'so called' sexual liberation , the wheel turned to 'protect' girls, not only from male spankers, but from cp in general.

In other words the system seems to have adapted and enhanced gender distinctions, not eliminated them .

We know from British examples that women can hit as hard or harder than men, and I can see even here little evidence that women would treat girls 'softer' than boys. In my experience neither with my primary headmistress, or with Jackie could you have sustained that case, nor , Jenny, in your case with your headmistress.

So overall this assumption of weak ladies being given gentle swats by their own sex seems suspect. Ignoring that leads you back to the fact that society doesn't give the trust to male teachers it does to female.

Finally Renee is interesting here. In middle school she gave up paddling boys, because one boy implied she couldn't hit hard. Yet she holds back the coaches when dealing with boys. so the issue wasn't 'was it hard enough' but that one boy's bravado can allow sexism to rule . Wouldn't have happened earlier , I suspect Jackie s generation would just have recalled him back and with a couple of extra swats proved the conclusion that he was promoting was both sexist and empirically invalid ! :)Might not be fair, but might have been effective.

 
 
KK

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 7:04 PM 

We often come to believe false information and even nonsense if it is repeated often enough. This is especially the case if nobody dares or bothers to correct misstatements or imprecise claims. So, can women spank as hard as men?

I am not asking if some women spank harder than some men, or if women have ever surprised by how hard they spank - the answer is certainly "Yes".

There are few sports where strength and speed matter where men and women complete against each other. This is because strong men are stronger than strong women and fast men are faster than fast women.

The following study compared police batons wielded by men and women. The sample size was small but it does seem to show that men hit harder than women.


http://www.lesslethalweapons.org/articles/ImpactWeaponEvaluation.pdf

A Pilot Study of Kinetic Energy Transfer Based Upon Police Baton Designs


[linked image]

Depending on the weapon, the men in the study hit up to twice as hard as the women.

 
 
HH

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 7:33 PM 

Hi KK, not only does this empirical evidence convincingly support to your hypothesis, but it also illustrates that indeed, if one looks hard enough, there has been a study performed on just about everything wink.gif

 


 
 

re Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 8:02 PM 

But in reality I suspect that women often DID spank harder then men - not because they were stronger, of course, but because there may have been less inhibition or concern for the consequences of spanking the opposite sex and any unpleasant allegations ensuing.

A man who is foolhardy enough to give a girl a good hiding is often portrayed as a brute and a bully, maybe a pervert. A woman who does the same to a boy is quite likely to be considered to give the little brat what he deserved.

In the adult world, if you brat to a dominatrix you are guaranteed to be spanked pretty hard, and nobody has any problem with that.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 8:07 PM 

A comparison of the capabilities of each sex, doesn't tell us anything about how they might control themselves.

Even though the average man probably can hit harder than the average woman, a man wouldn't necessarily do so. A man administering CP is more likely to control the power he uses whereas a women, led to believe that she's weaker than even the weakest man, is more likely to put all her strength into it and over-compensate.

The small SD for the female figures is interesting. Alan Turing mentioned here how girls' maths. scores tended to cluster around the mean. It looks like the same might be true of physical abilities.


 
 
Alan Turing

Standard deviation

February 21 2013, 9:10 PM 

The observation by Jenny is more significant than might appear at first sight. The correct measure to consider is the ratio of the standard deviation to the mean (both statistics have the same units, and so taking their ratio is legitimate). So, for instance, in the case of the baseball bat the variability for men is over four times the variability for the women.

Still, there are caveats. The sample size was very small, and the volunteers might not be representative. Indeed, the differences in both mean and standard deviation could be explained by one exceptionally strong man.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 9:27 PM 


In matriarchal societies, despite the 'physical' limitations of women they play the dominant role including the disciplining of the male children . This is a function of social integration , and social mores. The obverse is true in Patriarchal society. In many, for example , women walk several paces behind the man in deference. In these societies they will take few if any leading roles, and are again restrained by social ethos.they certainly don't discipline young males, indeed in some extreme examples a young male ( elder brother) may punish any woman, sister or even a mother in the absence of the father.

Our society is a strange brew. some argue we are nearly now living in a form of conjoint society, perhaps instancing the change in the laws of succession which have been promised, but I don't buy that. Because the issue of discipline is not about pure potential strength, but social strength. Many who would advocate , for example , that only men punish boys and women punish girls, are simply reinforcing social stereotypes. No man needs his full strength to discipline a boy, but it is interesting that although , as I said Renee objects to the identification of corporal punishment with extreme force ( as do I ) , she still feels socially bound to separate the disciplinary function at about 12 years old. Yet Mrs BB wrote she never felt unequal to the task of caning boys , rather like Jenny's headmistress. Doctor D on the other hand felt uncomfortable caning girls ( long before he determined they shouldn't be caned). This is all the outplay of complex social forces not physical ability.

Our school in my days was clear that women caned as hard as men ( which doesn't say that either caned with their full possible force) , and I believe others have found the same phenomena. But this isn't an area for empirical science, it is part of the ideological superstructure which is spun by the ethics, beliefs and even myths of society

 
 
willyeckaslike

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 9:33 PM 



Jenny and Prof N

Very good posts from both of you. They made very interesting reading, being both reasonable and yet to the point. Pity we cannot have more posts with the same balance.

I think the point made about women spanking as hard as a man, or even harder, has some validation to it. When I was in junior school the two most hardest/severe punishers were women. I think a woman may well paddle girls harder than a man, and paddle boys just as hard as a man. A man does have to be cautious when paddling a girl to avoid being called a brute, even though there may not be any truth in it.

A woman not using a police baton as hard as a man, but paddling harder than a man, might be because a woman uses force in relation to what she thinks is required. A man in trouble with the police may well be very surprised how hard a woman PC can hit if he gets too obstreperous.







 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 9:38 PM 

Renee does remind the readers of her blog that they are they are all mothers for what it is worth.


 
 
KK

Pilot Study of Kinetic Energy Transfer

February 21 2013, 10:13 PM 

The field study utilized nine participants who were, prior to the data collection,
trained in an impact weapon training course. Participants were taught the proper
form and accepted law enforcement approved methods for delivering the strongest
strikes possible, while instructors corrected deficiencies. At the conclusion of
training, participants were invited to participate in data collection for this pilot
study.


The crude data hardly takes up more space than its statistical summary.

There is confusion between force and energy and other deficiencies.

 
 
HH

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 21 2013, 10:42 PM 

Hi Jenny, in regards to

"Even though the average man probably can hit harder than the average woman, a man wouldn't necessarily do so. A man administering CP is more likely to control the power he uses whereas a women, led to believe that she's weaker than even the weakest man, is more likely to put all her strength into it and over-compensate."

There is yet another perspective. If you subscribe to the former and admittedly sexist notion that women are more predisposed to react emotionally to a situation versus men, is it not possible that women may inflict CP more often in a state of anger than their male counterparts? My own anecdotal experiences would tend to support that observation; and CP meted in anger has the unintended consequence of being more severely delivered than a calculated matter-of-fact punishment. Any thoughts on this?

 


 
 
de Wolf

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 22 2013, 2:22 PM 

Hi HH,

Apart from a few exceptions school CP was mainly carried out in a matter-of-fact way. Probably the exception may possible be a classroom whacking, and that would rarely have been carried out in anger. Some, on this Forum, have suggested a caning should be the most painful experience a boy should ever feel. That is utter rubbish, because it is a school punishment, not fifty lashes tied to a mast. Most were short sharp and had the desired effect without causing damage, but there were the exceptions, such as Bacons.

I have heard some women caned harder than their male counterpart, but this doesn't suggest in anyway they were angrier when carrying out this punishment.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 22 2013, 6:34 PM 

Hi HH

There is yet another perspective. If you subscribe to the former and admittedly sexist notion that women are more predisposed to react emotionally to a situation versus men...

As I'm not a sexist, I don't subscribe to that view. wink.gif

Women are not inherently more emotional than men, it just appears that way because we have much greater freedom to express our emotions than they. When a woman appears upset, she likely to be met with sympathy; a man is more likely to be told to "pull yourself together man!" Girls are taught from an early age to control (read "use") their emotions and many women can "turn the waterworks on" and off like a tap, as the situation requires.

If anything, a man is more likely to react emotionally when the strain of bottling it up becomes too much for him. Even then, that emotion will not necessarily be expressed as anger. One of my (male) teachers could get upset quite easily when we got a bit boisterous but he didn't react angrily. A (female) English teacher (who never got the chance to teach any of us anything) would often react angrily by shouting at us every few minutes but, as she never used CP, we just ignored her.

I agree CP inflicted in anger is likely to be more severe that inflicted in a calm, matter-of-fact manner.

Neilfrommanc hits the nail on the head in his post above, women are less inhibited. Couple that with my suggestion that women often don't know their own strength and and it's easy to see why a female teacher might inflict CP more severely than a man.




 
 
Jenny

Re: Standard deviation

February 22 2013, 10:28 PM 

Hi Alan Turing

So, for instance, in the case of the baseball bat the variability for men is over four times the variability for the women.

I must be missing or misunderstanding something here. In both cases, the coefficient of variation is 0.12 (to 2 d.p.). Would you mind explaining please?





 
 
Alan Turing

Bah!

February 23 2013, 8:06 AM 

I must have been asleep! Why on earth would I take the ratio of the men's mean to the women's standard deviation, and vice versa? sad.gif

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

February 23 2013, 10:46 AM 

Another study. Even fewer subjects, but maybe the policewomen on the prairies of Alberta are tougher than those in Florida happy.gif

Comparative analysis between police batons (Gervais et al 1998)

[linked image]

Click here for study as PDF (from survivalbus.com)


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

March 28 2013, 9:43 PM 

One way to solve the male teacher spanking girls issue that has dominated our recent press. The solution exists almost 90 years apart.

Slapping machine the American Way. wink.gif 1920.

CLICK

Robospanker. Previously featured

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Athenian Sport

July 1 2013, 3:39 AM 

July 05, 1866 in Boston. Men spanking girls.

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Male teacher ferules girl

July 4 2013, 12:12 AM 

16 spunky girls in 1891 gang up on a male teacher administering corporal punishment landing him under doctor's care for several days.

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

September 25 2013, 5:17 PM 

Public school reference to the paddle in the 70's. Jackie and Kelso of course are a hot item as Aston Kutcher and Milos Kunis entered the world of film.

PRINCIPAL: And Jackie, you are the new Snow Queen runner-up!
JACKIE: Oh, my God! This is the happiest day of my life! Wait, runner-up? (pokes him) How could that be? (pokes him) There's been a mistake! It was fixed! (pokes him)
PRINCIPAL: You poke me one more time, I'm gonna paddle you.
KELSO: That'd be hot (Jackie pokes him)
PRINCIPAL: And Jackie, you are the new Snow Queen runner-up!
JACKIE: Oh, my God! This is the happiest day of my life! Wait, runner-up? (pokes him) How could that be? (pokes him) There's been a mistake! It was fixed! (pokes him)
PRINCIPAL: You poke me one more time, I'm gonna paddle you.
KELSO: That'd be hot (Jackie pokes him)

CLICK

Jackie (Milos Kunis) 14 and Kelso (Ashton Kutcher) was 20 when she had her first kiss. Then he goes the other way with age with Demi Moore and their unsuccessful marriage. Scene from the show pilot.

CLICK

She turned many boys heads in the show through the seasons due to is high ratings. Little wonder why. wink.gif Here she is preparing for the paddle or at least some would wish. Sorry guys no bottle green knickers. wink.gif

CLICK

The little girl became a mature woman as she became the college student playing a high school role.

CLICK

As this fantasy writer is an example of why you should never have a man paddle a girl even with a woman witness, although I don't burl out a lesbian attraction as in the prison movies.

CLICK

She still is quite the item even up today. She has survived the ravages of time. Of course she is 33. happy.gif

CLICK

 
 

Another_Lurker

Oh yes there are!

September 25 2013, 9:35 PM 

M'lud,

While m'learned friend American Way is a splendid fellow and a mainstay of this estimable Forum, I would submit that he cannot be regarded as a reliable and credible witness in cases involving a visual appreciation of the bottoms of attractive young ladies!

He said above with reference to a picture he linked of Ms Mila Kunis in her cheerleading outfit:

Here she is preparing for the paddle or at least some would wish. Sorry guys no bottle green knickers. wink.gif

I recently suggested in another thread court that perhaps American Way should visit his friendly neighbourhood optician, and I fear that I must repeat that advice here. sad.gif

The following picture, a couple of frames further on in the sequence, shows quite clearly that under her  bottle green  and white cheerleader's skirt there most definitely are  bottle green knickers , and very nice they look too! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 2 2013, 8:22 AM 

NPR discussion about school corporal punishment. 20:10 on the radio interview.

WILLIAM: Yes, well, I have a couple of experiences. One, when I was in the ninth grade, we had a science teacher, and the science teacher would use a paddle on the boys, but with the girls, he would use his hand. And we had some very attractive girls in my class when I was in ninth grade, and I didn't realize at the time what was going on. But later at a class reunion a few years ago, the girls got together and started talking and realized that the guy was a pervert, was taking advantage of this.
And so I think it's very, very important that individuals of the same sex do the corporal - whatever corporal punishment there is.

CLICK




 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 2 2013, 12:54 PM 

I meant to put wink.gif I was being facetious and not visually impaired. I started it in that series as a progression. Give me some credit!!! Won't you?

Why bottle green? As any Packer fan would know that's the colors of the Green Bay Packers and that was the city they were imitating life in. So there!!!!

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

October 9 2013, 5:42 AM 

Welcome Mr C. C. Aspinwall to Chehalis Reformatorry with 178 boys and about 50 girls in 1909.

CLICK

1912.

When the girls are too large Mr Aspinwall paddles the girls on the bare skin to correct them of unmentionable vices.

CLICK

And quite brutally.

CLICK



 
 
American Way

Aggressive Principal Tames Boys And Girls.

October 11 2013, 9:28 AM 

Nothing all that unusual in 1932 for a man to be taming girls with a paddle but for one young lady admitted she had "reached for a cigarette" so she could also experience a paddling. Principal O'Donnell didn't disappoint. Sounds like our Jenny seeking gender equality. happy.gif

The Board of Education is said to be unanimous in their approval of Principal O'Donnell's action, and one of the trustees is credited with having stated that "it was too bad he did not arrive ten years sooner."

CLICK


 
 

Another_Lurker

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

October 11 2013, 4:15 PM 

From American Way's above link to the Friday, June 3rd, 1932 edition of 'The Picket Line Post and Mount Morris Union':

Back only a few years, the announcement
that a scholar or group
of scholars in a village or district
school had been given a taste of the
rubber tube or had been paddled by
some teacher op professor, following
the failure of the youngsters to
comply with the rules and regulations,
would have attracted but little
if any attention. In, fact, teachers
and professors were expected to
punish their pupils in those days in
such a manner that the offence
would not be repeated.

But in this day and age, such an
announcement results in plenty of
discussion, with parents and friends
of the scholars, as well as other interested
persons, at once taking sides
in the matter and either commending
or urging his or her removal.

No, surely not! I really can't believe that anyone would waste their time debating stuff like that even back in 1932! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Wrongful Paddling

October 25 2013, 3:26 AM 

1949 SHARON, Pa. Teacher Walter W. MacDonald, who caused a flurry when he spanked a seventeen-year-old sweater girl, is back in the good graces of the school. Mr. MacDonald, thirty-nine, told the school board that he made a "mistake." Students said that Mr. MacDonald is "easy-going" and one teacher said: "If he hadn't paddled her one of the rest of us would have before the year was out."

CLICK

Here is an example of a 16-year-old quintessential Sweater Girl in 1949. Madeline Balcar.

CLICK

CLICK

CLICK


 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Spanking Girls

January 11 2014, 6:39 PM 

Male teachers caning girls in Nigeria.

CLICK

Nigeria. Whip not. Weep not.

CLICK

http://whipnotchild.tumblr.com/

 
 

Another_Lurker

NOT Male teachers caning girls in Nigeria!

January 11 2014, 8:52 PM 

Hello American Way,

I am sure that girls are caned in school in Nigeria, and quite possibly by male teachers. However your first link above does not show this occurring. It shows members of the 'Whip Not Child' campaign demonstrating how children are allegedly caned in some schools at a workshop for children from one of the schools visited by the campaign.

The second picture shows attendees at such a presentation.

This is made absolutely clear in the latter sections of your third link, where in addition to clear evidence in the text that these are workshop presentations not actual punishments, the two pictures are clearly described as 'pictures from the workshops'.

You come up with a great many excellent links, but please don't introduce the tactics of the 'professional' anti-CP campaigners, who routinely fake what they can't actually prove.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Punishing Girls

January 11 2014, 9:00 PM 

It was likely they were creating a typical gender type caning. Obviously, it was a demonstration. That didn't need explaining. What needs explaining is the curious absence of Jeff Charles, on who is very much aware of possible abuses in such cases. A plethora of actual school canings by men of women abound online as attested to by Corpun.

 
 
American Way

Re: Male Teachers Punishing Girls

January 11 2014, 9:14 PM 

As attested in Nigeria on Corpun and here of course. Little escapes me.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Male Teachers Punishing Girls

January 12 2014, 12:17 AM 

Hello American Way,

You said above:

What needs explaining is the curious absence of Jeff Charles

I don't find that curious at all. I'm on record outside this estimable Forum as saying I don't think he'll be back. Have you not noticed that what I call 'professional' anti-CP people, ie those with websites, are not prepared to stand and fight their cause in the robust environment here, where some of us are not prepared to accept their claims unless they can back them up with something reasonably solid? Mommabear2 has stood her ground pretty well, and all credit to her, but AFAIK she doesn't have a website so has to be counted as a dedicated amateur rather than a professional on the Another_Lurker scale.

Having said that I very much hope that Jeff Charles reads this and decides to prove me wrong. As I indicated in the other thread, I'd very much like to discuss this widespread surreptitious videoing of female students being paddled that he's claimed. IMHO if it was going on to the extent he claimed when he set up his website, it must be absolutely rampant now, because the equipment today really is undetectable, unless you sweep the area with special detectors. The school official minded to produce some home videos could even have a shock resistant high frame rate camera in the blade of his paddle for that superb slow motion, errm, 'approach shot'. Great when paddling cheerleaders! wink.gif Any fetish film producers reading this, remember you saw it here first! But I don't think I'll bother patenting it. happy.gif

 
 
Declan

Re: Male Teachers Punishing Girls

January 12 2014, 1:35 AM 

Good to see that one of my old threads has been revived. Nothing to add really apart from A_Ls reference to the Green Bay Packers. This reminds me of an old teacher called Mrs Packer at junior school. She was known as " Packer the Smacker" as she used to hand out violent leg slaps on your thighs, very painful.

An amazing thing was that at a small junior school in 1964, only about 12 teachers , we had a Mrs Packer and a Mrs Rand, and that year at the Olympics , Anne Packer and Mary Rand won gold medals.

Well done to the delightful Miss Ennis who is expecting later this year.I haven't seen her look a alike for a while who used to ask me to buy her cigarettes at the local shop. I imagine she must be 18 now and can get her own.

 
 
KK

Millennium Challenge

January 12 2014, 4:53 AM 

EAL has suggested a challenge for the millennium - to find a 'professional' anti-CP person who is willing and able to debate SCP here.

Calling people names, suggesting their parents were not married or that anyone who does not agree is defective in some serious way does not count as debate. Nor is it acceptable to attribute to other views they do not hold.

(Okay - it was EAL's posting rather than EAL himself who suggested this challenge.)

 
 
American Way

Springtown TX Revisited.

February 15 2014, 5:38 PM 

Springtown TX Paddling is old news but the viewer interests and comments keep on coming. 1,440,903 Viewers and 6,695 Comments

Youtube

Here are stats from less than five years ago. 140 boys were paddled but only 10 girls. 5% of the boys with disabilities were paddled and none of the girls. There are about a thousand students that attend this school. Needless to say a girl being paddled once a month (vacation July and August) was not an every day event. It's hard to believe that girls are that much more compliant. It must be about enforcement of the code of conduct or inconsistency in reporting data.

Without Disabilities.

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With disabilities.

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American Way

Middlesboro High School Kentucky 1920

March 16 2014, 2:58 AM 

Professor Barnes fatally shot by brother of whipped sister. Adolphus Oaks is in jail, charged with the shooting. Barnes didn't hit the road fast enough. happy.gif

CLICK

Third Column from right at bottom is a follow up.

CLICK

 
 
American way

Re: Male Teachers Punishing Girls

April 21 2014, 2:55 PM 

Paddle Wichita Falls Texas

March 3, 2011. Morale Booster from Frazier's Office.

CLICK

December 15, 2010.

Charlotte Beaver said her 17-year-old daughter was spanked by City View Asst. Principal Daryl Frazier. He spanked a beaver?

Frazier.

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March 3, 2011. Morale Booster from Frazier's Office.

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Assistant Principal Daryl Frazier was good with the bat.

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Frazier's take on bullying.

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Background stories on paddling incident.

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Extremely High Paddling Rate.

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There not cutting down on suspensions.

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There are 392 students and the statistics are from 2011. The incident occurred in 2010. He is the only one that paddles. Charlotte's daughter was not the only girl. 43% of the boys and 7% of the girls were paddled.

The results.

Tyler Anastopoulos.

CLICK

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Wooly Bully Texas Style.

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