There has been a great deal of doubt about the issue of male teachers administering corporal punishment to girls in years gone by.

On another forum dealing with all subjects this is a posting in response to a thread entitled " Acceptable in the 70's" Most of the posts are about non political correctness, fashion etc. but a few raised corporal punishment. In reply to a post about sadistic teachers from a man, a woman wrote the following.

" OMG! When I was 14 we played an April Fool on our typing teacher by hiding in the cupboard till 12 o'clock,she was angry and sent us 7 girls to our Year Head, HE told us off then smacked us on our bums!!! I didn't think anything of it at the time but now I think - THE PERV. And yes there was some sadistic gits who you knew just loved whacking the kids hands with a ruler"

The lady does not give her age but is from the North East of England. She is a prolific poster mainly about TV soaps.

A couple of things though. How did SEVEN girls hide in a cupboard, and I would have thought that 14 year old girls would have realised that it was a bit off for a male teacher to smack their bums .Still, I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Hi Declan. You are quite right to raise little doubts about the above account, even though you are too much of a gentleman to dismiss the story out of hand.

Anything beginning 'OMG' or 'LOL' is fiction and should be treated as such! On the other hand, anything commencing 'IMHO' a contraction often used by Another_Lurker, bears the stamp of absolute truth!

Hi Declan, great to hear from you again.

Like all your postings, very interesting and humorous.

I know that this is a long shot, but have you ever considered the possibility that these 7 girls were the same 7 girls who were about to be tawsed by the Scottish senior mistress but somehow managed to plug into the power grid of the nearby nuclear power station thereby creating a very powerful electromagnetic field which resulted in them being transported through time and eventually into that rather large wooden structure.

Also the female teacher who discovered them was a rather low form of life in my opinion. Why go to the trouble of sending them elsewhere when she could have just as easily smacked their bottoms herself. Anyway it was a great joke and those girls should have been congratulated rather than smacked.

I actually believe the story because most people posting on other forums usually do not make stories up about school corporal punishment, especially if they attended school during the time when smacking,even of girls was quite common.

Hello Declan: great message.

I disagree with Lurker. The story is believable. What reason would that woman have for telling porkies?

However there was no reason for the girls to be punished since it was all done in good humor. The female teacher should have just laughed it off. Those girls were being very innovative.

Even though those smacks were probably very mild, the non-female teacher should have not touched those girls. Do you think that there is any chance that the woman concerned or any of the other girls might visit this forum and give a more detailed version of the events? Is there any way you can post on that other forum that you mentioned in order to encourage same?

Good bye for now.

Amelia

Greetings Declan from Nagano.

As always you have posted a very entertaining story.

Most of my friends, 90% of whom are British expats, agree with you that the story is highly believable.

Speaking for myself and all of my friends, we were only ever smacked by female teachers, however it is possible that there were some very low forms of non-female life around back in the day, who thought is was okay to smack a girl's bottom.

Those girls should have reported that git straight away. As for the mystery of how seven schoolgirls could fit into a cupboard. Well either it was a very large cupboard or some mysterious forces were at work. We could be talking X-files here.

Never the less it is always good to hear from you. Keep up the outstanding work and sayonara for now.

Your very humble correspondent

Miss Nagano

Excellent posting Declan

However you may have inadvertently opened up a Pandora's box of unexplained phenomena. How did those 7 girls get into the cupboard? Was it the same 7 girls mentioned in a previous posting? Are you psychic? The mystery deepens. This could be a modern day version of "Picnic at Hanging Rock"

I think I have got as much information as possible about the seven girls in the cupboard. I am certainly not going to post anything on that forum about this forum.The lady has in fact been on again, this time about a flasher near her school. She was never flashed herself but some of her friends were ( she does not specify whether they were the same girls from the cupboard). She also thinks that some of her friends were physically abused as children, but it being the 1970s no one mentioned it.

Another amusing tale from the same thread. A chap wrote that boys used to compare the number of stripes on each others bottoms ( from caning)when changing for PE, and the one with the most was considered to be the hardest boy in class. The same boy used to win every week until it dawned on them that he had a naturally striped arse and had never been caned.

I do remember comparing slipper marks with another boy after we had both been slippered in PE, in fact many boys used to do this and were quite proud of it.

Congratulations Declan. A very informative posting.

I also agree with the other forum members that the story is genuine. I also agree with the statement that the female teacher was a real wowser and should have had a sense of humour about a very funny joke.

As for that Cretan who decided to smack those girls, well don't get me started. As to whether the events described qualify for inclusion in an episode of the X files, well I will leave that for others to judge. Keep up the good work

Heather

Well my wife was given the slipper at her school in the early 80s 2 times she recalls! There was none of the nosense that is somtimes talked about in the way of over the bare bum ect. It was simply a case of bend over and whack whack whack. She was even slippered 1 time in the sceience lab for knocking over one of those bunsen burners. She hated that as it was mixed comp school and the lads really took the micky out of her after the teacher had given her the slipper. Good it happend though as today she is well er ... should we say she dont mind getting her bum smacked Each time it was over her skirt with her bending forward grabbing a desk. And each time by a male teacher. From what she has told me the science teacher didnt hit girls as hard as the boys who he would really whack hard but he was in her a words a bit of a perv as he tended to give the slipper more to the girls that the boys. For sure not PC these days and im glad its not allowed any more i would kill any teacher would tried to lay a hand on my kids but as a memory of the past especially from my wife I find it funny I suppose ... oh the good old days

Heather said at 09:24 on 05 July 2009:

As for that Cretan who decided to smack those girls, well don't get me started.

I have re-read Declan's post several times and I can see no mention of the male teacher who did the smacking being from Crete. Clearly Heather is trying to add some racial element to the story which was not present in the first instance. And please don't tell me that she was merely misspelling cretin as in that context cretin would not take a capital 'C'. Just what have you got against the inhabitants of Crete Heather? I think we should be told!

A.L.

I recall from my exposure to ancient history that Crete was the mythical (?) layer of the Minotaur, in the labyrinth beneath the palace of King Minos wasn't it ? Perhaps that's the link ?

I think you have it, prof.n! The key to this whole mystery! Crete was indeed the site of the labyrinth of Knossos, the lair of the Minotaur, beneath the palace of King Minos. Further there were seven schoolgirls involved in this escapade. The Athenians, after their defeat by Minos, were required at intervals to provide seven young men and seven young women to be sent into the labyrinth as food for the Minotaur.

Clearly the whole story recounted by the lady on Declan's forum is an allegorical account of this ceremonial sacrifice of young women to the Minotaur. The cupboard represents the labyrinth, the seven schoolgirls the seven sacrificial young Athenian women, the typing teacher represents King Minos, since it was on her account that they went into the cupboard, or rather the labyrinth. Quite why the gender of King Minos was thus transposed is not clear, but this sort of thing is not unusual in allegorical accounts.

And finally the male Head of Year who does the smacking, whom Heather, remedying an omission by the original story teller, informs us was Cretan, is clearly the Minotaur. The smacking obviously represents the young women being consumed by the Minotaur, the fact that it is 'on the bum' being symbolic of the sheer awfulness of such a fate.

A_L prof.n

Brilliant stuff about Crete. I'm afraid my ancient history is a bit limited so I'll take your word for it.

The forum I mentioned has now got a separate thread purely about caning and other forms of punishment. It has attracted about 100 posts in a day. Most are either from the anti smacking brigade or men relating their own experiences of the cane.

One or two are from women with interesting tales to tell. A scottish lady recalls how she was strapped, by a male teacher, aged nine for smudging some artwork. She says the strap was 1/4in thick and had five thongs and really hurt. Her hand was red for the rest of the day. In a later post she refers to the strap as a tawse, though she does not specify if it were a McRostie. She is very much opposed to CP.

On the subject of cupboards, I have just remembered that a girl at my school once hid in a cupboard during a lesson. She would also have been 14 and she got another girl to tell the teacher that she had been hurt in a motor bike accident. The ( female) teacher did not seem unduly concerned for her welfare, probably realising that it was a wind up. The girl soon got bored hiding in a cupboard and emerged, rather embarrassed as no one thought it was funny.I think the girls concerned had to visit the headmistress but I never discovered the outcome.

Hi Declan. An interesting story about the 5 fingered tawse and its effect. I have seen it suggested that for a given weight and width of tawse the pain inflicted increases with the number of fingers into which the striking end is split. I have no idea why this would be so. If it is so one wonders if there is an optimal maximum number of fingers after which efficiency decreases with further division. Sadly we never covered really useful stuff like that in Physics!

I would have thought that in classroom behaviour terms concealing oneself in a cupboard during a lesson would have counted as a fairly serious misdemeanour and one assumes the young lady you mention, together with her accomplice would have encountered a fate at least as severe as the seven girls in the labyrinth cupboard in your previous posting.

I don't recall any classmates taking to cupboards, but I do recall a music master fleeing into a storeroom attached to the classroom and refusing to come out. The poor chap was completely unable to keep order and we baited and tormented him with a degree of cruelty that only savages like teen-aged boys are capable of, culminating after several lessons with him taking refuge in the storeroom. He never reappeared at the school after that. I hope he found peace somewhere, perhaps in a girls' school!

And finally, I would remind you that as a member of this estimable Forum it is your duty to seek out and pass on any further items of interest from the new caning thread you mention for the benefit of people like me who are too lazy to find such sources for themselves!

Even though those smacks were probably very mild, the non-female teacher should have not touched those girls.

I truly don't understand this and I see it quite a lot here. This belief that male teachers (at least I assume that's what a non-female teacher is in the absence of large numbers of androids) were doing something wrong by inflicting corporal punishment on girls.

I can understand why people might think it's preferable that it be done by a female teacher but there's a difference between it being preferable and there being something wrong if for some reason it doesn't happen.

When I was at school, as I've indicated, canings were handed out by our Headmaster to both boys and girls. I don't think anybody thought there was anything wrong with that. This was the 1990s and we weren't completely naive. We knew there were men who liked school girls in a way that they shouldn't. But we also knew that he wasn't one of them. We trusted him and I've never heard anything to suggest that we were wrong to do so.

We trusted out teachers and because we trusted them we had a good relationship with them. If we hadn't trusted them, I don't see how we could have had that.

In the primary section of the school, the cane wasn't used but there was corporal punishment - smacking and spanking. Most of the time it came from your class teacher. Most of the primary school teachers were women, but there were a few men around and some of them smacked or spanked just as some of the women teachers did. If your class teacher happened to be a man and you did something to get your bottom smacked, he was allowed to do it. And again, I don't think anybody thought anything of it. They were trusted to do the right thing and act in the right way and if they couldn't have been trusted to do that, they wouldn't have been in the classroom in the first place.

I do know that not all teachers are trustworthy - anybody who reads the newspaper sees reports sometimes of teachers who've done the wrong things with kids. But it seems to me you either trust them or you don't. And if you don't trust them, how can they do their job. And if you do trust them, what's the problem?

I can see why it's sensible to have a rule that, where possible, certain things are only done by teachers of the same sex as the student involved although I'm not sure where the line needs to be drawn on that. Until we were in grade three, boys and girls changed for PE and sport together under the supervision of the class teacher and I don't see how there was anything wrong with that either. And even after that, boys were often supervised while changing by women because there wasn't any real choice (I don't recall it ever happening the other way around, but because female teachers outnumbered men, it was probably easier to avoid it happening). I can see why you want to avoid that happening when you can but I don't see why it's wrong when it doesn't work out that way.

And as a woman who was both smacked and caned by 'non-female' teachers as a girl, I am offended on behalf of those men - those good and decent, honest, trustworthy men who did so much for me and for my friends and family - at the suggestion they did something wrong by doing something that was part of their job, and was expected of them and approved of by our parents and, probably, by most of us.

It's not like limiting it to your own sex removes all risk anyway. I thought about becoming a teacher and I'm a spanko. Odds are, I'd never have wound up in a job where I was allowed to do it, but if I was, I'd be more likely to be enjoying myself smacking a girl, than your average man would.

A_L

I will keep you all informed of any further revelations on that caning thread. I would prefer not to give the name of the forum on here for various reasons, not least the fact that fun posters might infiltrate it. Most of the posts seem genuine and it would be better to keep it that way

The girl who was tawsed aged nine almost got another strapping at senior school. The chemistry teacher was intending to tawse the whole class but agreed to let off those who had done well in a recent test. This girl got 75% so she avoided it, but about 20 others did get it, including girls and from a male teacher.

Hi Declan, I knew I could rely on you! You are very wise to keep the identity of the other forum to yourself. If we can keep the 'fun' poster infestation confined to this estimable Forum there is at least the chance that it will run out of non-male names and thus destroy itself!

Well having returned from my excursion into the ancient world, -oh! and before going further, mea culpa for my last posting ...of course the Minotaur, doesn't live in a cake ( unless he had a very sweet tooth)....layer should of course have been lair......I promise to post and copy it 100 times......!!!!.- Still it does go to prove my Greek master had a point when he said all the world's stories, and all life are contained in Greek tradition.........

Halfpenny makes some very good points. , and ones with which I can empathise. However they stretch the topic thread, but I beg indulgence to explore them a little....
.
As those who have read many of my postings will know my school had the reverse problem ( although imposed not by choice, but by circumstance)..- teenage boys being caned by a woman. She found no problem , of course, given her background in the States ( which I will comment on further in a moment), but the School did find it 'advisable' to offer all boys the chance to be caned by man if they preferred.

To my surprise many did......despite a clear groundswell of opinion that within the 'management team' a rough approximation as to those who were allowed to cane, she was probably the fairest, and certainly the most thorough in listening and investigating. both sides of an issue. Her punishments were never given without explanation, or in anger. These were not my views , but those held generally in the school.. So the unwillingness to embrace this aspect of equal opportunity always puzzled me.

As I said she hailed from stint teaching in Texas ( she was a dual national , with US academic qualifications,) ending up as a VP before coming to the UK. Apparently in Texas in the early 70's there were no hang ups about who paddled. It was a co-ed High School system, and women were as comfortable paddling boys as girls, However it seems that over the last 30 years, two things have happened there. Paddling, where permitted, has become closely regulated, and certainly the women dealing with girls has become , certainly from some posts on this forum , a virtually routine assumption. Perhaps American Way can help whether this is reciprocated today (ie male-male only ) or is the choice with the teacher/student.

Of course we all see the sexual issue, but I take halfpenny's point, it is almost insulting to the teaching profession to assume sexual motivation, after all isn't that even more likely to be the case in terms of same sex relationships in the hothouse environment of boarding schools? In any case by the 70's here no boy would be caned in a state of undress ( any approximation to this would occur in the boarding houses at night, so again more likely to be subject of same sex abuse.....)I admit there is a greater problem with 'spanking' (UK idiom), but this is in respect of young children , and it always seemed to me to be more sensible in those schools where a mild implement was used , which eliminated much of the problem .

Of course there is the issue of size and weight, but if either paddling or caning is done properly it is not weight that determines the pain, and anyone who thinks the issue is just one of pure size / brute force , isn't fit to do the job!. Again in my case everyone recognised that our deputy caned as hard as the men , as a squash player ( accuracy) and a hard driving tennis player as well she more than made up for not being built like a prop forward.

It seems to me that there is a good case for equality , as has been made in the past by Dr. Dominum Indeed it seems to me to be the only starting point in a modern society. Of course we should allow for individual choice of same sex if desired by the student , as indeed I believe in many probably most cases corporal punishment should be one option out of a range of available punishments . Parents should have an opt out in state schools , and also one in which the child's view should when old enough be sought and given due consideration.

It seems to me that in many ways the arguments for corporal punishment in the UK were substantially lost though concentration on the exceptions .physical and sexual abuse, combined with an unwillingness by heads to give parents in the state sector the right to opt out (for fear of diminishing their personal power), the larger debate on punishment and reward , positive and negative reward systems etc., was sidetracked.

Funnily enough the real lesson from this has not yet been learned, and part of the reason for the inexorable march of indiscipline in our schools doesn't depend on the cane or not the cane, because despite one's views on the efficacy of this approach, there are many other disciplinary techniques which can succeed : but rather on HOW the debates are handled. The opponents of the pc brigade haven't learned yet how to mount a successful defensive campaign, so soon ..bye bye all sanction except the nuclear option of exclusion/expulsion.........

Obviously the abolitionists will disagree, but it seems to me that we should whenever possible use a mixed economy approach, no one answer suits every child or situation., and we should not use tecniques where there is good evidence that in a particular case it may do more harm than good,but we should aim to do the best for each .

here

In the states it is not all that unusual for a female principal to paddle a boy but less so on the secondary school level and even less so than in the days of coeducational Catholic schools run by Sisters. This may prove worth persusing on the issue of gender, class and education. Moderation in all things including moderation is the American Way.

American Way,

Thanks for the post and the link, which raises some interesting points , in a relatively structuralist framework.

I'm particularly interested in the transference, or I guess the author would prefer transposition, of the maternal role for women teachers into the classroom, but the concentration on the predatory role for men, rather than a paternalistic model . The boys socialise better in this framework than the girls, who are always recognised as potential sexual actors in a way boys are not.


If you reverse the framework, and place the ideological structures and processes of authority and punishment in female hands the authority 'cues' change , the existing process loses its essential fluidity ,, and I would agree transmutes into a far less democratic form because the formal structure of power is more crystallised in the individual ( feminisation) than in the institution( traditionally patriarchal). . In a sense then in a such a situation boys may benefit from female teaching in that , if nothing else it challenges the set role plays and preconceptions of the male patterning of education.. For example , a boy facing an interview the Head or Deputy for a disciplinary infraction, probably has a fairly good idea of the line the interview will follow, the boundaries not to cross and the verbal and non verbal clues as to the outcome. Replace the male with a female and the structure and function of the process changes.

Even in my school the number of boys who went into an interview expecting a certain line to be followed, only to find themselves completely unprepared for a less covert, less frontal assault on them , but a framework of questioning which depended on negotiation and mediation , which completely baffled and defeated them

Equally I know not only from the school example where the female deputy head used to become frustrated that boys generally seemed unable to read her body language. and other non verbal clues, which is a major problem I have seen this replicated in Schools and Universities from that day to this. Boys and frequently Male students will ride straight through a veritable barrage of non verbal warnings , and are then , surprised and even angry or hurt, when the women in charge sees their actions as disruptive or unacceptable. Essentially they are less intuitive and tuned into different social frequencies. For many years my deputy in university management was a lady I use to her annoyance joke that she had to be my director of intuition and feelings, if we were to make rounded decisions.

Certainly my first teaching post in a school was with an independent girls school teaching to the old 'Special' level and Oxbridge exam papers in the upper sixth. My work colleagues at the University joked it must be a really cushy number ( remember I was only five or six years older than than the girls in the class)...in reality it was quite daunting, as my non verbal cues were effectively scrutinised every minute of every lesson,

It took time to break down barriers and ratchet down the social 'threat' level to one where learning could effectively commence. Without that trust, which actually involves a sustained pattern of predictability between both the students and teacher , there is no basis for the learning culture to take hold , and predominate the social relations of the classroom..

So even in the US system which is massively committed in the public system to co-ed , there is a problem of masculine and feminine learning cultures and ideological structures which flow from that. . Boys will on this model accept a female authority model better than the reverse with girls.....but even in the case of boys there is still a real learning gulf between their experience and role models against the feminisation of the eduction process
Dr, Dominum of course has raised this issue with the role of female year tutors and the equality laws. It would be interesting to know whether or not these teachers adopt their management styles from their essential socialisation ,and thus define their roles personally, or whether the school ideological framework , which I expect is quite patriarchal , dominates the actors and prescribes their roles.

And now, as promisedm I'll not digress further from the topic.........

here

New York Times 1907 had something to say about women teachers flogging boys.

Thank you computer corner for teaching me how to post links. Thirty years ago the Sisters of No Mercy knew nothing about suffering indignities but the students did.

According to that extract from the 1907 New York Times:

In 1872 or 1873, when corporal punishment was given up, we had two methods of redress, expulsion or elimination by a process of refrigeration.

Is that really the American Way?

Yes, a very good point, prof n, about the "sustained pattern of predictability" needed for actual learning to take place. As a university teacher in America some years ago, I was in a flirtatious relationship with a student where nothing actually happened, but there were plenty of jokes and threats, which were quite enjoyed by both parties. However, all this became entirely detrimental to the process of education, since we both came eagerly to anticipate a situation where the work was not done properly, rather than one where it was. Sad to say, but a certain amount of flatness and dullness is a requirement of educational professionalism.

Spot the deliberate mistake.

My posting after 02.00 has a gremlin..

Para 4 line 2 should of course read

'covert , less frontal ( which is meanigful)

Not

'less covert, less frontal' ( which is meanigless, indeed actally tautologous!)

i.e... the male approach is to be direct and 'in your face' whereas they found the female approach more circumspect , but ultimately more devastating as they lost total control of the situation, and no longer understood their role.....

Apologies again : note to self. Learn to type AND proof read !!!

If you click my link in my last posting you are blocked out of the archives by the New York Times. I have a theory. If too many people access an article they block it for so many days which my posting may have precipitated. Maybe someone from computer corner can tell me why I cannot copy image & paste here but can on Word Document so I can share the relevant portions here. Alan by refrigerator did they mean left out in the cold as outside the classroom as in an in school suspension or outside the school building in the winter which in some cases might beat warming their fannies to teach them that the city pays for the coal. It would work in the North where it is needed and the South has the global warming option. Diplomacy doesn't always work and that's why we have other forms of military deterrence used as a last resort. The analogy limps somewhat but it's worth walking with for a bit or as TWP says walk a mile in my moccassins. Those who have purported to teach like the prof and the Doc and myself to some extent with some degree of credibility seem to favor SCP. I wonder why?

American Way,Alan Turing , Nero

A. W. -thanks for the link which is fascinating given the date. Alan Turing's point is apposite...I wonder, I am no etymologist but is this the origin of the word 'cooler' in a disciplinary context, makes sense...as I assume we all agree refrigeration probably means some form of in house suspension/isolation? Of course isolation was at that time seen as the 'humane' alternative to cp, the idea of spatial architecture having a psychological impact was implicit in the Benthamite panopticon project , to isolate the sinner in the constant gaze of society, which reached a high point with the design of late 19th century penitentiaries.

Again if so , plus ca change, plus la meme chose. I received only yesterday a suggestion in respect to 'isolation' in the form of a workbook for students to complete when in 'segregation to teach them the error of their ways. I found it so unbelievable , particularly its suggestions for how to handle 'clever' kids who decide to 'isolate ' themselves. Hasn't anyone realised , in a violent or threatening school a bright wimp may actually feel happier and safer in isolation than in class?

Unfortunately it was sent with some form of copy protect which prohibits me cutting and pasting , or reposting , otherwise I intended to post a section on the site. for comment. If I can work out how to get round the problem I will do so.

Finally Nero , you are right on the button. In one of my university teaching posts my office was located next to a waiting are for students. If I was out or not available they had perfectly adequate , even comfortable seating , together with a drinks and snack machine. However there was this one girl, who had a rather fetching and demure 'butter wouldn't melt' expression which covered an extremely clever, cynical and calculating brain! Mainly to gain brownie points with other students in the one upwomanship stakes, if I was out , she persistently managed to persuade someone to let her into my room to wait there.As she was a regular client(!) wanting to ensure alphas in everything, I got more than a bit fed up of this, ( although I couldn't determine whether it was a porter or a colleague who was the patsy concerned) but on one occasion I challenged her. She replied that she meant no disrespect (!!!???), but over the years she had spent so much time waiting outside her headmistresses study, for a woman who was always late, that she had got bored with waiting areas., so developed a 'personal coping strategy' I didn't really mind , did I? But at least waiting here she could read a book from my shelf.......

Now firstly I couldn't in a million years see any of may male students , no matter how bright or dim , having the barefaced cheek to act like that....but to rationalise it as an acceptable psychological and educational strategy.... Moreover she steadfastly refused to rat on who had let her in !.(ok so she's got a sense of honour!). Guess I pitied her headmistress......She graduated with a 'first' of course!!!

Three years later I hired her as a research assistant to work on project which required some quick thinking on your feet and occasionally a little 'creativity' in the name of educational research. She was outstanding, just one niggle - an appalling timekeeping record!!!! Oh but she was a happy bunny , we gave her an office and a set of keys.......now she could make others wait!!!!.

American way,

Pleased to report the New York Times is back on the link again! I can access it easily through my btinternet brouser, but the Firefox steadfstly refuses to give other than a blank page.

Perhaps its as simple as they went for a coffee break,,,and/or darker.... as an East Coast purveyor of news, doesn't trust anything with a 'Fox' of any kind in the name??!!!! We could always ask Mulder and Scully to take a look...... ? What about the first amendment doubtless we would cry!!!!????? Well Sarah from Alaska would anyway!

I was walking down memory lane when my wife received an invitation from a mother of a bride at work and I had to go to another dreaded wedding reception. Lo and behold they sat me next to a classmate of mind that was in Catholic school with me for eight years. I hadn't seen her in about forty years. What she remembered of me was a science fair project on planaria; she hated worms, my messy desk and my always locking horns, with two of the sisters, including the mean eight grade teacher. I was way ahead of the class and was on the wrong page when asked to read aloud so they would send me out to clap erasers until the others caught up. She has a masters degree in education and was a goody to shoes who was a loner who never married.

Maybe I steered the conversations but she said half the boys got the stick but only a handful of students escaped the ruler. She agreed with one of the girls that all of eight grades was a hostage situation and named the students that were acting out the Stockholm syndrome. We were all brought to the lavatories (s strange word today) together and a girl, poor thing, had to receive a Doctor's note to go frequently. The Nun read the doctors note about the girls bladder control and the boys tormented her by saying "PU" for stink. She agreed that you would only get into more trouble if you complained to your folks. My father of blessed memory would say there are 52 cards in a deck so don't you go being a joker. She did say we had screwed down desks and chairs and lived by bells with 52 kids in a classroom and we were being prepared to develop the skills to work in the textile mills right through the sixties and that we were living in a time warp. As an aside this same Nun would touch a boy and he had to block her hand as they became perilously close to his genitals. She laughed when I said I would rather be molested than beaten. My wife and all at the table laughed. Things said in jest are often true. I told her (a few years older unbeknownst to some)I like older women. I paid for that comment and perhaps deservedly so.

She was asked at a teachers' conference if there was a teacher she admired and she could only mention our sixth grade teacher in our eight years. It meant something to her that she was the only lay teacher we had (two in the entire school)and how that teacher was a retired public school teacher was in sharp contrast to the unqualified Nuns. They dug up the hardwood floors and screwed down desks and chairs and put in moveable furniture. The Nuns shed their habits and became more qualified with smaller classes in catholic secondary school but with only two lay teachers and they were both men. I'm becoming boring to myself and maybe sooner for other readers but the next time I'll post it will be about their relationship with the girls although somewhat off topic it may prove interesting to some so stay tuned.

The intellectual standard of the debate in this thread has gone right off the high end of the scale, hardly surprising considering the recent contributors involved. I am well out of my depth and will therefore take refuge in offering to address a couple of technical questions raised by the participants

• American Way - Maybe someone from computer corner can tell me why I cannot copy image & paste here but can on Word Document so I can share the relevant portions here.
• prof.n - Unfortunately it was sent with some form of copy protect which prohibits me cutting and pasting , or reposting , otherwise I intended to post a section on the site. for comment. If I can work out how to get round the problem I will do so.

in Computing Corner asap.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3P4TAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA157&dq=corporal+punishment+girls&lr=

Boston Medical and Surgical Journal By Massachusetts Medical Society, New England Surgical Society 1868

I wonder how woman would feel about the female stereotpypes that prevailed a century and a half ago. School age girls don't seem as docile and gentle as they did back then. As often is done Teacher Chat Board yanked its MS thread on CP probably because of a troll. The disparity in numbers between middle school boys being paddled versus girls and the lessening of that disparity on the high school level discussion ended the much to the consternation of one of its posters. Statistically there could have been a change because of the many schools who ban men from paddling girls. The data has been collected and stored somewhere as in Alvin High School in Texas the hometown of strikout record holder Nolan Ryan. I wonder how many countries have named a school after a living athlete just a few years after being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Ryan ranks up there with schools named after Jackie Robinson (Black) in Brooklyn and Roberto Clemente (Latino) in the Bronx.

As a footnote because of racial prejudice Jackie Robinson honed his skills in the Minor Leagues in Montreal. Racial tensions still exists even with Barack Obama as President as witnessed by an arrest of a Harvard professor friend of Obama by the Cambridge Police Department. Obama's two daughters are being tended to by Michelle Obama's grandmother, Marian Robinson, and Michelle's professional College Basketball coach brother who was no stranger to corporal punishment and their grandmother makes sure they make their bed and clean up after the dog. Statistics show that Blacks are on the receiving end in school because they're more likely to get a "butt whuppin" as Oprah Winfrey called it in a show.

She is pro corporal punishment in the home and anti corporal punishment in the schools judging from her show and the same cannot be said of Dr Phil. These shows might mean something to some readers of this estimable Forum. There are other Americans and their shows are broacasted beyond our shores. That's the American Way.

SOS computer corner I couldn't display the link in a shortened form as I've finally learned how to do. Is that due to being the format of Google book. Where I post so frequently I don't want to widen the thread. It's as annoying to you as it is to yours truly!!!

Hi American Way

I note your problem with regard to the link. I will investigate and report my findings in Computing Corner asap. We certainly don't want you having to revert to causing viewers to rush out and invest in 32 inch monitors!

I've been extremely busy over the last three weeks or so so while I've ducked in here and posted a few times, there's been quite a few messages I've missed responding too. I'm going to endeavour to get to some of those today if I don't get interrupted.

The reasons I have been so busy though may be of interest here. There's been two main reasons for it.

The first is that for two of the last three weeks, we've had a documentary television crew in the school filming 'day-to-day-life' of the school, interviewing staff and students, and generally being nosy about the way we operate. This is being done for a television documentary series planned for screening sometime next year which will be looking at the culture and practices of a number of Melbourne's independent schools. For anyone who is familiar with the documentary series King's School from a few years ago, it's meant to be in similar style to that, but looking at a group of schools rather than just one. Having these people in the school has been something of a nerve wracking experience at times, trying to ensure they get a true and accurate view of what we are like, without some sort of scandal erupting.

The second reason is that, as many people here know, I'm getting very close to retirement now (we're still working out the details on that - my plan was to finish teaching at the end of this year and then run out my unexpired long service leave until whenever that made my 'official retirement' date. It now looks like I will actually come back for the start of next year, finally completing teaching duties at Easter next year, in order to cover other teachers who will be taking up new positions on my retirement and who need to have their own long service leave covered - regardless, I will either, for all intents and purposes, finish teaching in either December this year, or late March next year... a prospect I view with a great deal of ambivalence (I am looking forward to retirement but I truly love teaching. I love my wife more, however, and it's been made clear that if I am even contemplating trying to pull any tricks to stay on past Easter next year, I'd better plan on doing so as a single man!). There's quite a lot of things to think about in the lead up to retirement and one thing I've started doing in earnest recently is looking at my library - I've amassed a lot of books on various educational issues over the decades and I'm having to decide what to keep, what to gift to other teachers, what is worth selling, what is best burned, etc. Not surprisingly, a fair chunk of my collection are books concerning school discipline and looking at one of these, I've been prompted to write in this thread.

The book concerned is a fairly sizeable American book called the School Discipline Desk Book written by Eugene R. Howard and published by the Parker Publishing Company of New York state in 1978. It describes itself as 'Presenting proven solutions to virtually every kind of discipline problem, this authoritative volume gives today's school administrators powerful help, and shows how to improve discipline dramatically.'

The book discuss corporal punishment - a practice that the author clearly disagrees with but which he obviously felt he needed to discuss due to its widespread legality at the time. In this book, corporal punishment is being discussed in terms of its legality - that's might quite clear in the book - it's in a section called 'Handle Discipline Problems Legally' and is one of 'eight legal issues now restricting the actions of school officials. As yoou go about the day-to-day task of administering discipline in your school you should be thoroughly familiar with these issues.'

So the book is discussing the corporal punishment of children in schools from a legal perspective and discussing the legal pitfalls the schools needs to worry about. And here is what it has to say:

Corporal punishment in schools is illegal in some states. In others, the courts have held that corporal punishment is legal so long as it is not unreasonable and excessive. It is unclear, however, whether an administrator can administer corporal punishment if parents object and refuse to administer the punishment themselves. It is also unclear whether due process must be followed in administering corporal punishment. An administrator may be held criminally liable if the punishment is held to be unreasonable or excessive.

We are opposed to corporal punishment both on practical and philosophical grounds. It is, we believe, inconsistent for a principal who hits kids to ask them to stop hitting one another. Furthermore, we seriously doubt the effectiveness of corporal punishment as a means of helping pupils modify their behaviour.

We realize, however, than you may not agree with this point of view. So, if you feel that you must use corporal punishment, we suggest the following procedure:

Be sure that the student has been warned at least once that the specific action he is being punished for would result in corporal punishment.
Be prepared to document the fact that other means of punishment have been used and that corporal punishment is a "last resort."
Notify the parent that you are going to administer corporal punishment.
Administer corporal punishment against the wishes of the parent only if you are willing to accept the risk of being sued.
Administer the punishment in the presence of an adult witness.

Consult your state's school code for information on what your state laws require. State laws vary considerably on this topic.

My point in quoting this is to point out one fact - that in 1978 in a book on school discipline, a book that disapproved of corporal punishment, a book that is specifically discussing what a principal needs to do to minimise potential legal problems associated with the use of corporal punishment - there's no mention whatsoever of any suggestion that a principal should not administer corporal punishment to a child of the opposite sex. That is, there is no suggestion that there might be some sort of special problem with a male teacher spanking a girl.

A lot of people posting on this forum seem to me to be of the opinion that there's something 'self-evidently' wrong about the idea that a male teacher might physically punish a female student. They seem to think this is an obvious problem that everybody must be aware of - and perhaps more significantly must always have been aware of.

I've been teaching a long time now. It's only in the last couple of decades at most, that we've been particularly worried about the idea of teachers sexuality interacting with the lives of students.

Talking locally, where I am.

In 2009, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as acting in a highly suspicious manner and as, at best, an absolute fool for exposing himself to the risk of an allegation of inappropriate behaviour. If he escaped sanction for doing it, he'd both be being given the benefit of every possible doubt, as well as being very lucky.

In 1999, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as running a bit of a risk in exposing himself to an allegation of inappropriate behaviour. As long as he had a good record though, of always acting appropriately towards his students, he'd be unlikely to face too much in the way of formal sanctions, but people would probably have found his actions somewhat uncomfortable and would wonder why, if such punishment was necessary, it couldn't have been administered by a female colleague.

In 1989, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as having done something that people might make a joke about. But assuming the girl had clearly done something to deserve it, and assuming the teacher was not one who'd ever given anyone a reason to suspect he couldn't be trusted around girls, it's unlikely most people would have thought much about it. Teachers were people you trusted around children to do the right thing and you needed a damned good reason before you even suggested that this particular teacher was an exception.

In 1979, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as doing his job. You might query the policies of the school in not having a female teacher administering such punishment or for that matter in allowing it to be used on girls at all, but teachers did what teachers had to do and if a girl did something that justified corporal punishment, she only had herself to blame for the outcome. Again, if this teacher was one who'd already rung alarm bells in some other way, it might have raised some eyebrows. But otherwise, it wouldn't have.

In 1969, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as giving a naughty child exactly what she deserved. These girls wanted equality. They could hardly complain when equality carried a sting in the tale. As for the idea that the teacher might be doing something inappropriate - we're talking about a child here, yes, we all know these children, these teenagers like to think they're all grown up, and ready to be treated as adults, but we all know that's absolute nonsense. Let's not dignify their silly ideas by worrying about issues like that.

In 1959, a male teacher who (in a situation where corporal punishment was permitted by policy and law) administered corporal punishment to an adolescent female student would be viewed as taking a normal and accepted approach to correcting the behaviour of a naughty child. Full stop. That's it.

Ideas change. Standards change. But it's only a fairly recent phenomena where we've been more or less expected to view school age children as sexual beings, and therefore as potential targets for sexual predation. Yes, we were naive about such matters in the past in many ways, in denial about it, perhaps - because there has always been a small proportion of teachers and other people in positions of trust over children who have been prepared to act inappropriately towards them. But the thing it has always been a small proportion, probably a tiny proportion. Even today when we are less naive, and far more aware of the potential problem, it's only a tiny fraction of teachers who do the wrong thing. It just gets a lot more publicity and so less than 1% look like a bigger problem than they are.

Back in the early 1970s the first time I had girls in my classes, and those times when I caned them - three girls on two occasions - I never once, even considered, acting inappropriately towards those girls. The idea just wasn't something that was part of my thinking. I now believe that another aspect of my thinking - the ideas that lead to me insisting they be subject to the cane, and to me using it on those occasions was somewhat wrongheaded, but at the time I really did think I was acting appropriate and taking an appropriate line. I never dreamed of doing otherwise.

Once I had caned those girls and I realised I was especially uncomfortable with the idea of caning girls... I didn't really know what I could so about it. That illustrates how alien this modern attitude is, in many ways. If I'd gone to a senior colleague and said: "I don't think I should cane girls, because I'm worried that there might some sexually related issues in me doing it," I'd probably have been ending my career. Because people just didn't discuss such things - and anyone who did was obviously a pervert.

Most teachers wouldn't have seen any problem. And those that did, wouldn't dare talk about it for fear of being the ones who wound up being seen as the threat.

Besides, even my feelings were very vague and I can't be sure what they really were. And even if they were related to my libido, I never, ever considered doing anything different because of them. Unless we're going to move into Orwellian areas, it's what a person does that matters, not what they think (or might think).

Today, I once again have senior girls in some of my classes. 17 year old girls.

Objectively speaking, I can easily see that they are, physically, mature young women. Emotionally, and in terms of their apparent mental maturity, some of them are fairly close to being 'adults'. Statistically, I can hardly be unaware that it's likely that at least some of them are sexually active to some degree.

Guess, what I see when I look at them as their teacher in my classroom?

I see children. Schoolchildren. Just as much as 17 year old girls, as I do with the 12 year old boys I had in the period before.

Why? Because I'm a teacher. And that's how I have to see them. And it's the only way I want to see them - because anything else is me not being what a teacher should be.

The vast majority of teachers, I think, see these kids in the same way. They are children. We are adults. And never the twain shall meet. And even those who don't always think the way they should - I think that most of them would still never, ever, act on those feelings even if they have them.

I'm not saying male teachers in the modern world should be administering corporal punishment to girls. As I've made clear, I don't really think corporal punishment is a good idea with girls anyway based on up to date research, but even if I did, I'd still believe it's only sensible in the modern world, in the modern climate that such punishment should be in the hands of a female teacher. Teachers, like Caesar's wife, must be above suspicion. An abundance of caution is not a bad thing on this issue.

I'm just saying though that it is the modern climate, and it is being especially cautious and it is about perceptions more than anything else.

And it wasn't always that way. And we shouldn't pretend it was. And we shouldn't judge the teachers of the past purely by modern standards, because modern standards are not written in stone, but in sand.

Very well put Dr.Dom. I note a tinge of nostalgia in your post, as you accurately and succinctly lay forth the attitudes towards teacher's and their disciplinary practices. I think it would be an intersting subject:
A Social History of teachers and Attitudes towrds them. ?
It seems to me that if a male teacher were to cane an adolescent female today, and if it were legal, he would nevertheless suffer similar howls of indignation that are reserved for those who commit sex crimes. Though in the past claims that male teachers who cane girls bottoms were 'getting off' on it would itself be seen as a shameful thing to suggest.
I think we tend to idolise children today in ways that would be seen as dangerous in the past. In the past, in our society influenced by a ristian ethos, children were born sinful.Christian morals had to be taught or
the naughty brats would get up to mischief etc and a large role of the schooling process was a moral one as well as a results orientated one CP was seen as a natural means to achieve this end.
I wonder if that perhaps this was the thinking behind someone like Halfpenny's headmaster when he caned. I cannot be sure of course, that is an assumption though fromher posts the impression I gleaned was of a real traditionalist.
kind regards, Thom

Thank you Doctor Dominum, a most thoughtful and interesting post. You say:

And we shouldn't judge the teachers of the past purely by modern standards, because modern standards are not written in stone, but in sand.

This is absolutely true, but so easy to forget. I think that some people here, including myself on occasion, do not give appropriate consideration to this. I have always tried to set my accounts of corporal punishment during my own schooldays in their historical and social context, but even so I have perhaps allowed my view of what occurred to be influenced by today's standards.

You establish above that, in your area, it is not so very long since it would have been perfectly normal and indeed expected for a male teacher to administer corporal punishment to a schoolgirl if such punishment was felt to be merited and the male teacher had the responsibility for administering it. I do not think it would have been very different in the UK. You go back to 1959, which was near the end of my schooldays, but certainly in England the situation you describe for 1959 would have held for the preceeding 12 years when I was at school and long before that.

You seem to say that in your area a male teacher would be very unwise to administer such punishment today, even if policy and law permitted. In the UK, where all school CP has been banned by law for more than 10 years any such occurance would clearly be illegal. I personally believe that it should remain illegal even in the very unlikely event that school CP was ever restored here and applied to both sexes. That does not mean that I think it was wrong in the past, just that given current thinking it would be foolish to burden a revived CP option with such a contentious element.

Whatever retirement arrangements you come to I personally hope very much that you will continue to post here afterwards. You would be very sadly missed if this was not the case. However, it may prove difficult timewise. I can assure you that if you think you are busy now, just wait until you retire!

And finally a couple of questions, which I fully appreciate that you may not answer for fairly obvious reasons.

First, you said at 10:10 on 30 July 2009 in the Teachers Who Paddle thread:

There's strictly speaking no reason why they could not film a caning and broadcast that, if we allowed it (ethically, they should have the consent of the boy involved, but legally, they apparently wouldn't even need that). I can't see how it could possibly happen in a way that isn't artificial to the point of being totally inaccurate as a representation of how things really work (or at least I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen), but, hypothetically speaking, if I didn't allow it, would I also be guilty of covering something up that it could be argued is in my interests to cover up.

Objectively speaking, part of me would also like to see a caning accurately shown on television mainly because so many people seem to have quite an exagerated, sometimes even warped idea of what is really involved, and quite a few of the opponents of corporal punishment seem to be very willing, in my view, to exploit children in order to make their points, secure in the knowledge that people on my side of the argument aren't in a position to reply in kind

The operative words above are doubtless 'I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen'. However did the extraordinary happen and after your visit by the film crews is it possible that Australian viewers may be enabled to see what is involved in a caning in a boys' school where it is properly regulated and accepted as part of the scheme of things?

And second, you say in your post above:

Today, I once again have senior girls in some of my classes. 17 year old girls.

Does this arise through a resource sharing arrangement with a neighbouring girls' school, such as you have described as existing during the 1970s, or is your school going co-ed, starting, as is often the case, with the Sixth Form?

Very well put Dr.Dom. I note a tinge of nostalgia in your post, as you accurately and succinctly lay forth the attitudes towards teacher's and their disciplinary practices.

Nostalgia? I suppose so, in a sense. I think teachers used to be far more respected than they are, and I suppose I would find it easier to live with that loss of respect if it really seemed to be based on something real - but for the most part it isn't.

One of Australia's newspapers today - Brisbane's Sunday Mail - contains an article with the title Predatory teachers wreck lives. The article reports that 57 teachers in Queensland were investigated over the last three years for inappropriate behaviour involving students.

Of course, even one such case is deplorable. But there are 30,000 teachers in Queensland. 57 of them being investigated in three years... that's 0.19% of teachers. It's less than 1 in 500 teachers.

It's a tiny proportion. But society acts like it's not.

I wonder if that perhaps this was the thinking behind someone like Halfpenny's headmaster when he caned. I cannot be sure of course, that is an assumption though fromher posts the impression I gleaned was of a real traditionalist.

From what I know of the situation at Halfpenny's school, her Headmaster was placed in a pretty awkward position - deliberately hired as part of an attempt to lure male students into an all-girls school that was going co-educational because of his reputation as a pre-eminent teacher of boys, he insisted he needed to have corporal punishment available to deal with boys, but the school council insisted that there be no gender discrimination in the school as a basic principle of co-education. They also insisted that caning should be entirely in the hands of the Headmaster and not delegated.

I remember looking at the position myself all those years ago, and considering whether or not I wanted to put in an application - they were looking for a mid-seniority teacher from a boys school to leap straight into a senior position. It was quite an attractive proposition in a career development sense.

You seem to say that in your area a male teacher would be very unwise to administer such punishment today, even if policy and law permitted. In the UK, where all school CP has been banned by law for more than 10 years any such occurance would clearly be illegal. I personally believe that it should remain illegal even in the very unlikely event that school CP was ever restored here and applied to both sexes. That does not mean that I think it was wrong in the past, just that given current thinking it would be foolish to burden a revived CP option with such a contentious element.

To a great extent, I agree with you. My only caveat is I'd want the reasons behind it to be stated extremely clearly - that if it is being done out of a desire to exercise extreme caution, say so. If you are going to base policy on the actions of a tiny minority of teachers who abuse their positions of trusts, then say that is why you are doing it. Otherwise, it does create an impression that their numbers are much higher than they are.

Whatever retirement arrangements you come to I personally hope very much that you will continue to post here afterwards. You would be very sadly missed if this was not the case. However, it may prove difficult timewise. I can assure you that if you think you are busy now, just wait until you retire!

I'll have to see how it works out.

The operative words above are doubtless 'I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen'. However did the extraordinary happen and after your visit by the film crews is it possible that Australian viewers may be enabled to see what is involved in a caning in a boys' school where it is properly regulated and accepted as part of the scheme of things?

No, they did not film a caning. I think they'd have liked to, but the boys were actually extremely well behaved while the film crew was in the school, and we had far fewer disciplinary issues of any sort.

They did record me reprimanding a couple of boys, they interviewed me (and I believe others) about the use of the cane, and they did video record part of the leadup to a boy being caned, before I decided this was heading that way and decided to shut the door. I believe they may have recorded from outside the door (honestly I'd be surprised if they didn't) so they may well have overheard something. But even if there were some potential situations where I might not have objected to them filming, with this particular boy, it would not have been a good idea (he's a natural performer who would have played up for the camera I think - he was starting to head that way when I shut the door).

Just one note on this, having read a post another person made to the forum. I'd just like to point out that even though this documentary is planned for screening next year (ie, after I've stopped teaching and have left the school), they were filming the parts of it they are going to use from this school this year, when I am still here. I suspect it is actually likely to be pretty obvious who I am once this series is aired to anybody who sees it and wants to try and work it out.

Does this arise through a resource sharing arrangement with a neighbouring girls' school, such as you have described as existing during the 1970s, or is your school going co-ed, starting, as is often the case, with the Sixth Form?

Closer to the former than the latter, but...

We're looking to have a much closer relationship with our sister school (and vice versa, of course). Those who support co-education see us as moving towards that, the rest of us don't see that as a desirable goal, but are not opposed to the idea of having some degree of integration. For me (as a senior staff member at one school, and a council member of the other), it's a matter of trying to get the 'best of both worlds' - remaining as single sex schools at our core, but being flexible enough to share resources easily and freely, and also to get together on various things when there's an advantage to doing so.

At VCE level (that is the final two years of school) we have a number of VCE courses that neither school would have enough students to run by themselves, but which by allowing girls to attend here, or boys to attend there, gives us the option of running them. For my subjects, and a number of others, we've decided to offer 'top stream' classes where the best students from both schools study together. It means we can have higher ability level classes than either school could manage by itself (taking our top 10 and their top 10, creates a significantly higher standard class than either of us get with our own top 20 - and combining the second group of 10 in both schools into a second class of 20 also seems to have created a higher achieving class at that level - these highly capable kids can no longer coast on the coattails of the brightest and are reaching higher levels than they did before.)

Very few schools here are likely to go fully co-ed if they haven't already done so - but most are looking for ways to have more integration. We're lucky enough to be close enough to our sister school that even though our campuses are distinct, senior students can transfer between us with careful timetabling (it has caused some comment by residents of a previously fairly quiet suburban street who now need to deal with the 'thundering herd' a few times a day).

Sorry Doc, but even 0.19% is too much. These are people in a position of power and trust with children. How would you feel if one of your pupils moved & went to school under the power of such people?

Let's not pretend you lot are all like it-it was never that way & we all know it. There were dishonourable exceptions in your schooldays & mine & long after, but it's the few nonces that have always attracted the headlines, I'm afraid, not the caring people like yourself.

The important point about girls is that most, though not all, people began to realise something around the 1970's or 1980's about the caning or slippering of adolescent girls. Girls had started to mature younger, and that means starting mensurating earlier, too.

There was something of a move towards caning on the hand for girls at this point, on the basis that bottom-caning meant things could literally get messy "downstairs" for the girl. Besides which, making someone wait a week for a caning is also a sort of cruelty few wished to practice, so hands out looked a good move.

Unfortunately, studies soon showed that even hand canings for girls if it was their week "on" were not a good idea. Apparently, women's skin sensitivity in that week goes up on average 231% generally, and about 490% on the skin of the erogenous zones.

So, even ignoring any potential sexual turn-on for the victim, the agony factor was clearly greatly exacerabated. Even if we disagree about caning in principal, you and I know it is meant to hurt, otherwise it cannot have a deterrent value.

But that sort of revelation rather puts inflicting pain into the sadistic category. And with the rise of equal rights etc, you now know why public and political opinion swung right round against chastising girls.

Passing back briefly to the numbers games on the number of public schools still possibly using it in 1997, I seem to remember the feeling was, if the keep-it lobby had announced 170-odd boy's schools still used it or retained the use of it, instead of around 200 public schools, including girls and co-eds, they might have won the argument.

But letting the minute numbers of girls' or co-eds slip out brought the feminist lobby down on them like a ton of bricks. Which is very probably why the info was leaked as it was leaked.

And do keep us posted re your retirement; Another_Lurker is right-I've never been busier since last December, even with Sarah's recovery going so well. I'm sure Mrs Doc has her plans even better advanced than yours already!


Steve

Thank you Doctor Dominum. As always, a most comprehensive and interesting reply. It sounds as though the documentaries on the elite schools of Victoria may include a scene equivalent to the notorious TruTV Nancy Giulen/Principal Halter invisible paddling - a shot of a closed door with muffled sounds of a caning. I hope that your lad, despite his dramatic tendencies, was not tempted to play to the gallery and rub his bottom as he departed afterwards!

Seriously, it must have been quite difficult to plan and manage the visit of the film crews whilst keeping the school running smoothly. I assume that the school will retain some editorial control over the version finally shown on TV?

The arrangement you are implementing between yourselves and your sister school sounds to me to be the best of all worlds. I firmly believe that academically single sex education is best for boys, and the evidence seems to point to it being best for girls too. However the provision of subjects, and levels of competition, which would not otherwise be possible by utilising co-ed mode for some classes must be a very good thing and to the benefit of both boys and girls.

I take your point regarding the need to be honest about the reasons for any restrictions on the administration of school CP. It is indeed a very valid one. My reason for saying that male teachers should not punish girls has nothing to do with the remote possibility that a very tiny minority might find that task pleasurable rather than a necessary duty. That is a risk which I think is potentially present whether the punishment involved is single sex or opposite sex, and for both boys and girls. That risk, very small though it is, should be controlled and indeed eliminated, by the regulations and authorisations which must surround a valid school CP option.

My reason for considering that male teachers should not punish girls in the current era are simply that I have never heard of a genuine sounding complaint that a boy was distressed beyond the actual effects of the punishment when punished by a female, indeed almost the contrary in some cases. However I have heard of a number of cases where girls were distressed at being punished by males, and indeed atributed to the person performing the punishment motives which quite probably were not actually present. I am no expert on the relative psychology of the sexes. Girls are sometimes said to feel more guilty than boys if they have broken the rules and possibly that guilt may give rise to the need to ascribe to the punishment a significance other than the just desserts for an offence. I have no idea of the reason for the phenomenon, I just think that if a CP option was to be credible that particular issue would be best avoided.

Sorry Doc, but even 0.19% is too much.

Then, Steve, I suggest you get out there on the streets and agitate for the shutting down of all schools immediately. Because that is the only ways schools are ever going to be safe enough based on that point of view.

Yes, the only acceptable level of abuse in a school is zero. The only acceptable percentage of abusers is zero. But perfection is something that is virtually unobtainable in any setting where human beings are involved and while we should certainly be trying to get as close to that level as possible, we shouldn't be doing it at the expense of other children.

When we restrict what 99.8% of trustworthy teachers are able to do in dealing with children, because of 0.2% who can't be trusted, we wind up damaging the education of far, far more children than those abusers were capable of harming on their own. And, in all probability, we wind up doing nothing at all to help those children who are being abused - because those teachers have already proven that they don't care what the rules are, they'll ignore them - so expecting more rules to stop them is pointless.

I don't try and stop students from smoking by banning chocolate in the school. Well, that idea makes about as much sense as believing a ban on corporal punishment would stop a teacher from having sex with a student.

These are people in a position of power and trust with children. How would you feel if one of your pupils moved & went to school under the power of such people?

If I caught the person involved, I'd be tempted to break every single bone in his or her body, but I'd probably settle for seeing them prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

What I wouldn't do is go to Mr Smith, and Mr Wong, and Mrs Archer, and Miss Jones, and Mr Nguyen, and Mrs Feldman, (etc, etc) and tell them: "Sorry, but you have to change the way you teach because of the actions of that utter scumbag Carter. I'm sorry it will make you less effective teachers, but no price is too high to pay to pay lipservice to the idea of keeping children safe."

But that sort of revelation rather puts inflicting pain into the sadistic category. And with the rise of equal rights etc, you now know why public and political opinion swung right round against chastising girls.

It's never been a major factor here - perhaps because in Australia, there does seem to have been more action over a long period of time to restrict the corporal punishment of girls in schools than seems to have been the case in the UK. Most of the country's state schools either banned it or at least severely restricted it for adolescent girls, and far fewer private girls schools used it than boys schools. There doesn't seem to have been any general disquiet about the idea of corporal punishment being used with girls even when abolition became a common cause.

As, I think, I've made clear, I'm not a real advocate for the idea that corporal punishment should be used with girls in any event, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are reasons that mitigate against the idea. But those issues are completely separate, in my view, from the idea that we need to restrict the practices of all teachers to deal with the reality of a tiny minority who are already acting outside of what is acceptable, and so who wouldn't be affected by further restricting that anyway.

You don't stop sexual abuse of children by banning corporal punishment, anymore than you'd stop smoking by banning chocolate.

Pertaining to sexual abuse from 1914 book on school dicipline previously quoted and then an amusing anecdote. It's a good read as are many from Internet Archives from Canadian libraries previously mentioned are good sites.

http://www.archive.org/stream/schooldiscipline00bagluoft#page/184/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/schooldiscipline00bagluoft#page/210/mode/1up

Thank you for the above links, American Way. I shall have to wash my mouth out with soap afterwards for saying something nice about Microsoft, but the digitising of those books is very clever stuff. I love the way you can turn individual pages or whole batches of pages. IMHO a much better system than Google Books.

It is interesting that a book published in the US in 1914 should say (p184):

One of the earliest effective reactions against corporal punishment in schools was to interdict the whipping of girls

If it ever existed in the US that interdiction doesn't seem to have lasted very well to judge by the number of girls being paddled now! It certainly never existed in the UK until the final abolition of school CP.

The book also says (again p184):

Corporal punishment can be most effectively applied only when certain parts of the body are exposed and the notion that self-respect in this very personal sense could not in justice be sacrificed to the necessities of punishment has gradually eliminated the chastisement of adolescents in schools ........... the sense of indelicacy which now effectually prevents the use of the rod with girls, and with boys who have reached the age of sexual self-consciousness .........

It looks as though the widespread adoption of the paddle blew that one out of the water in the US. In the UK any little problems regarding ineffective application of CP unless certain parts of the body were exposed were already overcome well prior to the book's publication by the adoption of the cane instead of the birch. Some schools though still decided that a bit of extra exposure didn't come amiss for more serious offences. This seems to have continued right to the end with expedients like the Rodney School gym kit routine and, especially for girls, hints of rather less justifiable practices at some schools.

From time to time something of interests appears on this chatboard. If you don't believe that 42 year old male principals paddle 17 year old girls I will soon post some statistics that prove otherwise. Nancy from Booneville was not an isolated case. By now some may not have inetrests because of my multiple postings but I'm in the midst of writing a hypothetical student handbook and am in respectful disagreement with two members of this estimable Forum and believe that woman should be involved with girls and men should have no part in it. Dr Dominum feels that if a woman is available than a woman should and not a man and prof n feels that changes in policies may imply a capitulation or concurrence to unfounded suspicions. Unless I'm misrepresenting their views I hope they can clarify them at least to my mind. I believe if a violation is more likely to be perceived, rightly or wrongly, by females more than males than females are carry more a burden. That involves bopth the administrator as well as the witness (who turning red in Anna story does not necessarily mean that he was aroused!!!) Among the tens of thousands of high school girls facing a paddling 25% more choose suspension when given an option than boys. Details of why these approximations apply according to the federal data will be forth coming. The details involve names of elementary schools, middle schools and high schools and racial, gender and special needs. High schools girls are less frequent and the ratio between boys and girls favor the boys as they mature. The sugar and spice factor may come more and more in play with girls physical maturity because there are more male teachers than females teachers in the upper grades. I'm giving the link with its many responses (pro and con)as well as two recorded suspicions that it might be a canard to promote the anti-cp cause. In my opinion it is not written to arouse and the responses are worth considering given the title of this thread but may be a ploy by the anti-CP. Also I value the opinions of this estimable Forum whether it it is the work of a pester or a poster. It is an emotive topic and often yanked by their forum so don't delay.

http://teachers.net/mentors/high_school/topic9313/8.21.09.08.44.26.html

A while back there was a virtually identical post. Same
scenario - two men, short skirt, sexual arousal....
Methinks someone with a strong anti-paddling view is using this scenario to make some points.

I actually think this could be the same person who last year
said she was a student teacher who was threatened with paddling
by a coach (something in the writing style reminded me
immediately of that poster). But anyway...

Paddling in schools...i was beyond humiliated yesterday
Posted by: Anna on 8/21/09

I live in a southern state and our highschool still
practices corporal punishment. I have never been paddled
before until yesterday and it was the most embarrasing
situation I have ever been it...I think it should be
banned. I was late more than three times and the teacher
sent me to the principal's office for the "punishment". Let
me tell you...I am a 17 year old girl and very pretty (not
trying to be conceited) but I really did NOT feel like it
was appropriate for my 42 year old principal to paddle me
on my butt. I was also wearing a skirt and when I asked him
to receive the punishment the next day, he declined. So can
you imagine the humiliation of me bending over his desk
with a full view of my buttocks? also, the witness was a
man and when I finished receiving my punishment, the man's
face was bright red and he couldn't look at me. Even he
found it ridiculous! I am embarrased to say this but i
actually cried because he was paddling me so hard...after
the first hit i just burst into tears..i felt like i was a
3 year old child...it was humiliating. He just told me to
get into position and suck it up. I actually felt like I
was raped. Has anyone experienced school paddling? If
so...i am truly sorry and I had to express my feelings on
here because I am way too embarrased to tell my parents.

Hi American way,
Came on line to do airport check in and saw your post .I'm not sure you correctly reflect my position so here it is in brief:-

I said on your Handbook thread:-


Finally a thought on the same sex issue. There is a clear case that men shouldn't paddle girls but beyond this to me is a red herring.... just look at the statistics. More boys are abused by men than by women by a long chalk. Some of the worst cases of abuse have been men on boys, so why push them into that position just because there are arguments against men being involved with girls...or do we always pander to the court of public opinion , even when its counter factual? Give students the right to request, but don't make rules that there is no evidentiary basis for. That's when you get into trouble in the courts.





OK so what I feel is as follows:-

Some girls will be paddled in the US system, probably significantly fewer than men. It should for everyone be based on socio- psychological profiles,( expensive and difficult (impossible ?) as TWP have pointed out) and MUST exclude medical exemptions. In state school it should be based for everyone on parental right to refuse cp registered annually and recorded manually and on computer. Any doubts parents must be referred to.

As to administration girls SHOULD ideally be paddled by women, and should have the ABSOLUTE right to request this . Any other arrangement should be purely exceptional and must be agreed in writing without coercion by the girl concerned. (see below for how this might come to pass).

I don't think it matters as much with boys, because as I said there is far more of a problem with male on male abuse than female on male. Further whilst there is a non sexual aspect to male on female size strength and intent (macho culture) none of these issues would apply vice versa. .

In this situation ,however, for reasons of equality of rights give the boy the absolute right to opt for a male to administer and witness the punishment by all means, but there is absolutely no need to insist.

The situation where I could have envisaged a girl preferring to be paddled by a man rather than a women was outlined by a Principal of a small high School My research notes of his conversation with me ( some time ago) were written up ( a little sanitised fir the 54 censor machine but as near verbatim as possible) as follows (E&OE). I'm NOT SUPPORTING his view its just here for a rounded picture......









......... at 14 , ....., you should be old enough to decide if you can take a few swats. ~And as I said the paperwork, or do it wrong, don't get a witness, we only have a Principal and one VP here and........., I can't take out a teacher from class. the school board says swats must be given straight away , its cruel to make kids wait more than a few minutes, so who is going to paddle other than me and who is my my witness??....... If a girl asks for a female to paddle her, which I get...well , I have no option, she'll have to come back after school when I have a couple of teachers who will do it, but I guess that's her choice -= probably her lawyer won't agree. Otherwise ..break up a class to get a teacher to paddle...another class disrupted for the witness....or what about get a female janitor as witness , sure, yeah! ..think that would go down in Court?Anyway the male female thing is a joke , the hardest swats in my old school came from a youngish female VP, an ex athletics coach. We nicknamed her Boadicea .Boys , girls , indeterminate, all the same to her!!

I hate giving licks to anyone, but licks are better than the alternatives, believe me.

prof n thanks for the clarification and enjoy your trip. I'm going with the brace postion for safety thanks to your painful experience but not the holes (fabric) for my school corporal punishment tutorial instructions. I'll have a first draft waiting for your input upon your return and of course others input like Dr Dominum for the scale factor for offense and consequence even given his feelings towars a disciplinary matrix.

I promised some surprising data so here goes. In Corpun 20162 there was a big brouhaha over Audrey Pee, 18, being paddled by a young male principal named Bill Brand. He was 1989 graduate of that school and he has been named the new prinicpal after a courtroom vindication.

In 2006/2007 the following statistics were published showing about ten percent of the girls and a third of the boys were paddled at his small high school. He was principal at that time. It will be interesting to see if that took a dip during his hiatus and what will happen now that he has returned. The school obviously trusted him to keep him on as coach. It seems a reasonable surmise that girls would choose paddling if men didn't play a role in it. I do fell Brand has been unfairly treated for enforcing policy culturally embedded in MS and others must agree among those who matter.

Now that I know through Center for Effective Discipline site how to access these records it's become very easy indeed. It was right before me and I don't know if Corpun has shared this with others but I suggest they do.


MS EAST WEBSTER HIGH SCHOOL 160 195 15 65 15 30

The first and second column are the enrollments of the girls and boys and the third and fourth are the CP numbers corresponding. The fourth and fifth columns are the supensions for the girls and the boys. What does it say? As many girls chose paddling as suspensions while more than twice chose paddlings over suspensions among the boys. These figures are not at all atypical. Compared to other schools in MS the numbers are low and that might have to do with things like respect which is often missing in other parts of the USA especially urban areas with liberal leanings. Enough said!!!

From Audrey Pee's facebook she is fond of exposing more than her ankles and especially surprising from Maben MS. I tend to think that the Principal had a lot to contend with dealing with that one. There was a popular radio newscater named Paul Harvey who had a program the rest of the story.

http://www.cdispatch.com/sports/article.asp?aid=1477

http://www.facebook.com/audrey.pee

This appeared in a popular forum involving Audrey Pee.

A former teacher wrote:

Ok lets get the facts straight she was disrespectful when another staff member told her that her pants did not meet dress code standards , if she were she would have respectively , pulled the pants leg down , it would never have gone this far, the fact is SHE WAS DISRESPECTFUL!!!!!!!! There have been too may lies told just to try and ruin a good mans name. It is time Audrey held up her head and acted like a woman and tells the truth. NOT HER MOTHER, BUT AUDREY!!!


Uh hello this is Audrey.. I told her exactly this " I have worn these pants several times this year, and he made that rule up yesterday when I was absent thats not fare Im not getting wrote up for this.. As an 18 year old. Im aware of my rights and I have option.. Why do we care about ruining someones name??? Why would we lie?? If you would have been at court. You would have seen who was lying!!

audrey pee

and i did pull my pants down HELLO THE ARE CAPRIS THE DONT GO DOWN THAT FAR!!!

Getting the pulse of young people is not very easy.

Most of these estimable Forum participants are not from the My Space, Facebook or Twitter generation. My kids tell me what's going on in their world. That and my fondness of links have led to this. I found it refreshingly less fetish oriented than other polls involving Male Teachers Spanking Girls (far more infrequent than ant CP zealots want you to believe). The lack of personal experience may account for this decline in fetish posting.

The caning of Headmaster/naughty schoolgirl fantasy is far more popular than the Principal/student paddling fantasy. Fantasies are based on dominant/submissive fantasies which is an archetype. The cane being employed is more iconic than the paddle and has made corporal punishment called the British Vice and not praise God the American Way.

What is Soda Head is a social polling site founded by MySpace Execs Jason Feffer and Michael Glazer, who noticed polling was one of the most used features on MySpace. SodaHead is a leading opinion community focused on discussing today's hottest topics. If you have something that gets your noggin spinning, hit up SodaHead -- ask a question or add your two cents and see who else thinks like you.

Share your views with your opinionated friends, your gossipy coworker, your know-it-all ex, or meet new friends. Pick your passion, whether it's politics, pop-culture, music, sports or relationships, you'll find SodaHeads who are all worked up about the same stuff.

School Corporal Punishment Pro Con Paddle

From the pollster who initiated the poll (marie/m) her opinion on CP is as follows: (If I was present and the principal does the paddling, yes. If my child was in public school, then he should see support/consistency between parent and school. My presence would be a true deterrence to abusing my child, AND I would be showing support that the principal is enforcing the code of conduct properly. And THEN, he'd get it again when he got home).

Good advice for Part II of my student handbook I'm working on and awaiting feedback. The girl's profile follows who initiated the poll. Far from statistically significant the poll does give you a snapshot of what some young people are thinking and an opportunity to understand both the thought process and gamut of opinions that school corporal punishment elicits even when it's become less and less frequently employed. Some of our estimable Forum may be interested in her(marie/m) profile to better understand her and the American Way.

Profile of Pollster

When I was at school in the UK during the 60's and early 70's, boys and girls often got the slipper in class from both male and female teachers. The headmistress and assistant headmaster both caned boys and girls.

If a boy and a girls are caught talking in class (after being warned a couple of times) what should the teacher do? Slipper the one of the same sex as the teacher and then find a teacher of the opposite sex to slipper the other? Admittedly, arrangements could be made for them to each report later to teachers of the appropriate sex to be slippered but that would remove most of the benefits of a classroom slippering - namely the immediacy, swiftness and simplicity.

Where pupils are sent to be caned for more serious offences, they could be sent to teachers of their own sex but what would be the point? If a mixed sex group of pupils are all caught committing the same offence together (smoking for example) they should all be punished together. That way they all receive the same punishment and, possibly more importantly, know they all received the same punishment. A child believed to have unfairly "got off" is likely to be subject to considerable resentment.

Lauren will trade embarrassment for pain. Why should that be surprising? Maybe the sugar and spice plays a bigger factor than one imagines? Being paddled by a man is not that much different than being spanked by a father when younger. Where there is mutual respect you don't impugn nefarious motives so when a male paddles a girl ot osn't as much a big deal as some make it out to be. .

Posted by: Lauren on 7/27/09

Well, I was paddled twice in high school by a district with a
similar policy. The first time I took the option of getting the
swats from a female coach who was designated to administer corporal
punishment. She was a former athlete who basically swung the
paddle like a tennis pro hitting a forehand smash. I was sore for
two weeks. The second time it was frome a male VP. It was bad,
but not nearly as bad.

Maybe someone can format this disciplinary chart similar to Winona found on this site. It would make it more attractive. Lets face it detention ties up every ones time and seem equally unattractive and ISS is detrimental to the student so CP is frequently chosen.

It would look good in my student handbook and I have no reason to believe it isn't the real thing. Most schools don't publish their charts but enforced them internally and make them known to the students by word of mouth because they are constantly changing. Their handbooks are very vague among the ones that paddle the most from the ORCA data.

Let's bracket whether matrices are too robotic (previously debated) and assume matrice a given so how reasonable does this one seem? I think the offense/sanction ratio is one of the best I've seen online and they are many out there. Academic dishonesty is punished severely because of cyber cheating and cell phones and texting are ruffling the feathers of the faculty. Dr Dominum (given continental differences) do you think this chart reasonable?


You have to ask yourself if the offenses shown in the disciplinary chart are in accord with female proclivities and then wonder if the total number of paddlings may outweigh the number of indiviuals paddled. The Alvin TX High School may not be an aberration at least in AK nor may Lauren be a phony.


How is this Matrix?

Posted by: discipline chart on 7/17/09

first unexcused tardy = warning

second unexcused tardy = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

third unexcused tary = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

fourth unexcused tardy = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

first cell phone violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

second cell phone violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

tobacco violation = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

profanity = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

profanity towards teacher or staff = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

parking lot violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

bus violation = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

dress code violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

skipping = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

academic dishonesty = 5 licks or 3 days ISS

class disruption = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

gum, candy, food in class = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

failure to dress out for PE = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

public display of affection = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

internet use violation = 2 licks or 3 hours detention

damage/destuction of property = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

theft = 3 licks or 5 hours detention

false statements/note to teacher or staff = 3 licks or 5
hours detention

Hi American Way. I've done your matrix for you, and a very boring one it is too, since only the first two offences have increasing penalties for repetition. Hardly worth a matrix really, but as it was a trivial job to modify the previous one I did for you, here it is.

Now if you'd followed up that stuff I did on the previous matrix for you, you'd be bashing them off yourself in a trice. It isn't difficult. Trust me, if you can get a Physics degree this stuff is child's play! I shall expect an All-American product next time!

OFFENSE 1ST OFFENSE 2ND OFFENSE 3RD OFFENSE 4TH OFFENSE unexcused tardy warning 2 licks or 3 hours detention 3 licks or 5 hours detention 5 licks or 3 days ISS cell phone violation 2 licks or 3 hours detention 3 licks or 5 hours detention     tobacco violation 5 licks or 3 days ISS       profanity 3 licks or 5 hours detention       profanity towards teacher or staff 5 licks or 3 days ISS       parking lot violation 3 licks or 5 hours detention       bus violation 3 licks or 5 hours detention       dress code violation 2 licks or 3 hours detention       skipping 5 licks or 3 days ISS       academic dishonesty 5 licks or 3 days ISS       class disruption 3 licks or 5 hours detention       gum, candy, food in class 2 licks or 3 hours detention       failure to dress out for PE 2 licks or 3 hours detention       public display of affection 2 licks or 3 hours detention       internet use violation 2 licks or 3 hours detention       damage/destuction of property 3 licks or 5 hours detention       theft 3 licks or 5 hours detention       false statements/note to teacher or staff 3 licks or 5 hours detention

Awesome. Thank you.

An interesting effect of woman's liberation is that it came to Arkansas while the tradition of paddling persisted. 25% less girls chose paddling as gleaned from the ORCA data. That proved surprising to those who perhaps underestimated their courage to submit. Never underestimate them. But then again don't underestimate the opposition as previously noted they are saying girls are treated differently when receiving CP.

From the Arkansas Teachers chatboard

7/21/09

It is intersting that one result of equal rights has been a more equal
application of corporal punishment. Through the mid 1970's in Arkansas and
elsewhere, girls were a small minority of students who were paddled. When the
issue of equal punishment came up and a voluntary choice for all students was
applied, girls as well as boys began to be paddled routinely. While 9th grade
boys still seem to receive the most swats, at this point they are followed
closely by 11th and 12th grade girls. The infractions resulting in swats in
these groups include tardies, cell phone use, tobacco violations, parking lot
violations, etc.


.

Thank you, American Way. It is seldom that a client describes my efforts as 'Awesome'. Usually they say something like 'yes, I know I said I'd like a slide out sidebar menu with extra onmouseover effects, but I've just seen this site with a sort of transparent effect menu that appears at the top of the page and could you possibly do one of those instead ......'.

I am thinking about how I can get you doing tables. Having triumphed on short form links I feel that nothing is impossible!

The extract from the Arkansas Teachers chatboard that you quote uis interesting:

While 9th grade boys still seem to receive the most swats, at this point they are followed closely by 11th and 12th grade girls. The infractions resulting in swats in these groups include tardies, cell phone use, tobacco violations, parking lot violations, etc.

More and more entries in this estimable Forum seem to be pointing to girls being, and having been, just as badly behaved as boys in school, and often paying for their sins by being, or having been, in receipt of corporal punishment. A hard thing for me to come to terms with. I've never been totally in denial about this, but equally I've never thought that it was anything other than relatively uncommon compared to boys.

I have been away for a few days, so there is quite a bit to catch up on, especially the Mr Ing business, but I'll come to that later.

I was interested in Jenny's account of both male and female teachers slippering the opposite sex. Certainly female teachers slippered boys but I never came across a male teacher either slippering or caning a girl. Like Jenny I was also at school in the late 60s early 70s and very few girls were slippered or caned when I was at school, but those that were were by a female teacher. Don't get me wrong I entirely accept what she says and there is stacks of evidence on Friends Reunited to prove it.

The closest incident came when a male teacher THREATENED to spank a girl on her bottom , and he used those words. This teacher was a regular slipperer of boys and it must be possible that he did slipper a few girls.

If for instance a few boys and girls were caught smoking the Headmistress would have caned the girls , on the hand. Most misbehaviour was during breaks and PE lessons ,usually by boys. I cannot recall an instance of boys being slippered and girls getting a different punishment for the same offence, apart from the smoking which attracted the cane.

I would be interested to hear more from Jenny about the slipperings of girls by male teachers, and how they reacted, for instance did they just go bright red and pretend it didn't hurt or did they do the wardance accompanied by rubbing the affected area.

Hi Declan,


I was interested in Jenny's account of both male and female teachers slippering the opposite sex. Certainly female teachers slippered boys but I never came across a male teacher either slippering or caning a girl. Like Jenny I was also at school in the late 60s early 70s and very few girls were slippered or caned when I was at school, but those that were were by a female teacher. Don't get me wrong I entirely accept what she says and there is stacks of evidence on Friends Reunited to prove it.

What, really, is the difference between a female teacher slippering boys and a male teacher slippering girls? In both cases the recipient is of the opposite sex from the one doing it. The main reason fewer girls were slippered or caned in many schools has nothing to do with our being better behaved, it s just that girls tend to be allowed a lot more leeway.


If for instance a few boys and girls were caught smoking the Headmistress would have caned the girls , on the hand. Most misbehaviour was during breaks and PE lessons ,usually by boys. I cannot recall an instance of boys being slippered and girls getting a different punishment for the same offence, apart from the smoking which attracted the cane.

Sorry, I don't understand that last bit. You seem to be saying that boys and girls got the same punishments for the same offences apart from smoking. But you also said the headmistress would cane the girls for smoking. What did the boys get? Or were you saying boys got the cane for other things (apart from smoking) but the girls got another punishment?


I would be interested to hear more from Jenny about the slipperings of girls by male teachers, and how they reacted, for instance did they just go bright red and pretend it didn't hurt or did they do the wardance accompanied by rubbing the affected area.

The first pupils in my class to get the slipper (two boys and a girl together) went quite red from the embarrassment of it. It was quite amusing in a way. All three had being messing about and had been warned a couple of time. In the end they were called out to the front and, as they were going there, the teacher picked up the slipper. At that point we knew the boys were going to get it but I wasn't sure about the girl - I had an idea that, despite the headmistresses introductory speech about treating us all equally, the girl was just going to get a "telling off". I think she was thinking (or hoping) that too. As expected, one of the boys was told to bend over and the teacher gave him two or three whacks with the slipper. Then the other boy was told to bend over and he got two or three whacks. Then, as in all honesty we should have expected, the girl was told to bend over and she got exactly the same. They said later that it wasn't too bad but it had the desired effect - the whole class was well behaved for the rest of the day.

Overall, getting the slipper from a male teacher was better than from a female teacher. The men seemed to control the power behind it (for both boys and girls) but female teachers tended to just "go for it" not realizing their own strength. A classroom slippering was usually (but certainly not always) a relatively mild affair. It stung at the time, and you knew if you got it again it would be a lot harder, but it soon wore off.

I'll try to answer any more questions as soon as I can but I am rather busy today so you might have to wait.

Jenny

Apologies for not being quite clear on this. Girls and boys would be caned for smoking, but from the Headmistress and Headmaster as appropriate.

Very few girls were given the cane as so few of them smoked, or misbehaved in another manner. There were also very few slipperings in front of a normal class of , say, history. If a boy and a girl were caught talking they would most likely be sent out of the room which did happen. Most teachers at my school did not use the slipper, probably 6 or so male teachers and 3 females , and there were 50 teachers at least.

I would estimate that around the 50 boys in my year two thirds of them were slippered at some stage in their school career and half of that were caned, though some boys must have been caned 20 or so times. As for girls , very fewer, half a dozen slippered and maybe two caned.

I did try to get some more information on the number of girls getting CP at my old school via contacting some of them on Friends Reunited but with limited success. ( Steve from SE5 can perhaps give me a few tips on that !)

Hi Declan,


Apologies for not being quite clear on this. Girls and boys would be caned for smoking, but from the Headmistress and Headmaster as appropriate.

OK, I read it as boys and girls being given the same punishment (as each other) for all offences except smoking - when they were given the same punishment.

Very few girls were given the cane as so few of them smoked, or misbehaved in another manner.

In my school I think it was roughly 50:50. About the same number of girls smoked as boys then but nowadays I believe teenage girls are significantly more likely to smoke than boys. As for other misbehaviour, are you sure girls were better behaved or just got punished less?

There were also very few slipperings in front of a normal class of , say, history. If a boy and a girl were caught talking they would most likely be sent out of the room which did happen.

We got quite a lot of, albeit fairly mild, slipperings in class. We very rarely got lines or detention though. What would happen if two boys were caught talking or two girls? I'm interested because your answer because it might support an hypothesis.

Most teachers at my school did not use the slipper, probably 6 or so male teachers and 3 females , and there were 50 teachers at least.

I think just about all my teachers used the slipper, some more than others.

I would estimate that around the 50 boys in my year two thirds of them were slippered at some stage in their school career and half of that were caned, though some boys must have been caned 20 or so times. As for girls , very fewer, half a dozen slippered and maybe two caned.

At a rough guess, I'd say almost everyone at my school got the slipper at least once at some stage. I think most of us got the cane too. I'm not sure anyone got it 20 times though. I thought I was bad but even I didn't manage that sort of score! There is no reason to think that boys got it any more than I just for being boys.

Well it's good to see you back Declan. Was your absence perchance due to your trip to sunny Aberdeen? If so did the weather permit ascending any of the hills, and did your friend divulge any new information on belting and its former essential place in Scottish education?

Previously I said a woman should paddle a girl if available and it should not be in the handbook because it would imply that male teachers have nefarious motives. In the work in progress handbook it will be woman paddling girls. If no woman was available in the school then the school would become corporal punishment free. My visceral reaction to Steve Halter played into that. Getting back to Nancy my wife felt that I over reacted to the issue of paddling a pregnant girl. For her it was no big deal. It would be her parents call. I think the paddling spanking org site would serve a great function if it gets up and functioning. What would Renee et al think of the stated goals on the home page?

Lastly I wonder if Renee would ever consider paddling a pregnant teen and under what circumstances? BTW the chart posted so graciously probably doesnt include what the punishment is for the first offense. The teacher was responding to how corporal punishment was employed after some warning or consequence had occurred or so I would assume hence I will be using both columns. That being said I think the principle of proportionality between offense and sanction seems reasonable. The color of the chart made it even more awesome but I suppose it is one step at a time.

Hi American Way and Another Lurker.

Interesting chart. I too was surprised to see only tardies had 'repeat' violations, although some of the other categories are generic.

Some interesting anomalies. As always tobacco is hated ( but you only get half what I got in the 70's), so I hope the students are grateful for small mercies.

Damage theft and false statements seem very leniently treated compared with academic dishonesty, and really minor issues, parking violation gym kit etc.

Finally the issue about 11 and 12th grade girls getting the highest number of infractions and 9th grade boys, was something commented upon by several administrators when I visited the south. To compare with other recent postings, this includes what in the GB we would call sixth form girls. My American friend confirmed this was a typical pattern throughout her teaching life. In her experience many of the 'older' girls thought the paddle was a bit of a joke. it was your job to make sure when they left the office that ,( without being excessive), this idea had been dispelled once and for all ! Knowing her , that would not be difficult!

prof n This matrix is amusing to me because of its inclusion of adults and the number of offenses. I haven't found one on line as extensive. When a student drops out of high school they can study for a GED or equivalency test (without a diploma) or they can enroll and graduate with their own diploma usually awarded in an adult graduation ceremony. Do they have a rough equivalent of that in the UK? To carry over the same disciplinary matrix (Eucon highschool/college and still an open question) would be pro forma but to up the ante for adults I find amusing. That means they must be enforcing it. As far as horseplay the only horseplay I would be doing between the usual ages (19 to 23) would qualify as public display of affection.

I think if they had corporal punishment the list wouldn't be so extensive. For the adults maybe not they may already be into that.

Mother of All Disciplinary Matrices

Hi American Way,

That takes the biscuit! Know any 7 years olds who would understand that , no come to that can read 20 pages of administrative memo! ....

Actually its a students charter , well, until you get sent to the special behaviour unit ! Every road leads to suspension. For example cut classes get suspended ( take unauthorised free time : get rewarded with some more) Is this is Nirvana of Paula and her merry band.......

I liked the special behaviour unit where youngsters could be made to sit for a day's classes at their desks, without talking to other students. !!! Punishment? Did we ever do anything else?

It seems as you get older you have 10 free bites then it could get nasty , 45 days in the special behavioral unit......and , as you say , if you're an adult don't express affection to your significant other. Actually I think the adult matrix was drawn up with the intention of ensuring that so many students are always suspended the teaching becomes easy.........