You have to write your school handbook. Shere is a hypothetical situation would be that The Everman Junior High School Committee has just hired me to succeed Anthony Price TWP (July 3rd image) linked below. The use of CP is given since he turned around the school. Everything else is on the table and I've been given a free hand to make changes in the handbook (junior high school) and I only report to the school board. Some junior high schools include 9th grade and some stay back and that is why the differences in policies abound between elementary and high school but not so much middle schools and high schools. Some of the area that might prove helpful to attend to are the tutorial as seen in video (manner of paddling) demonstrated, the number of teachers in the swat teams authorized or the principal alone, gender considerations both paddler and witness, discipline matrices involving offences and their sanctions (number of swats per offense etc.) and the dimensions of paddles. I would suggest a quick perusal of the video policies from school to school policies in Corpuns site for those not so familiar with the American Way.

I have my own ideas but I'm open to ideas from every point of every POV whether that is from the faculty, administrations, students, former students and their families. I value first, second or third experiences but keep in mind I have to enforce as well as encode. I also have to explain my reasons for setting the policy to the board knowing full well the range of positions that abound on this emotive issue. I'm an active listener and I'm new and I want everyone to openly share without fear of reprisals. Since its hypothetical I would appreciate sharing how you arrive at your conclusions (i.e. premises, assumptions, deductions, etc.) You're me what do you say to the school board or you're the school board what would you say to these suggestions.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=13331@ktvt.dayport.com

I foresee serious difficulties with writing the policy.

Gender equality

Boys and girls are physically and pyschological different but must be treated the same. This can only be partly offset by allowing students to chose either CP or another penalty.

The paddle

The paddle is very much a blunt instrument with a tendacy to cause disproportionate deep bruising. Its danger is that it marks less than alternatives and this can encourage excess.

Clothing & modesty

Punishments on the bare are more consistent and safer in the sense that wounds can be seen but would be damaging to the recipents in very prudish USA.

Hi American Way,

Interesting idea. I would have posted earlier, but let me be frank. During the last 'n' number of years in different roles I have signed off, approved , criticized, written, edited , commented on , revised, shredded so many of these administrative 'handbooks' rulebooks' ' guidance' 'toolkits' and 'road-maps' that it really was too deja vu to want to return too quickly. However you first poster the eminent KK has spurred me into action, if at this time it only amounts to some general advice Please I'm writing this on a Sunday afternoon so laugh along at the scenario, and , if you don't share my sense of humour , don't take offence, is meant to be light hearted, and not to upset anyone on this estimable forum!! ( NB Any State Department employees , please don't withdraw my US visa!). The central issue of gender inequality today and pitfalls is completely serious.......


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I thought it might be useful to reproduce below the Principals recollections from Bythebook Junior High School, in Midred. State who went through this procedure last year. This extract represents the first morning's work of Blabber and Blather (educational consultants) who were hired to facilitate community involvement in the process. . Blabber and Blather organised a discussion seminar which was led by the Principal with senior representatives of staff, school board, school council, and PTA present . The ISD superintendent Mr. Makeaproblem was in the chair........

Mr. Makeaproblem thanked all those attending and indicated that the PTA had flagged up Gender equality as their priority agenda item . So he called on the Principal of Bythebook High Ms.Jobsworth to give a short exposition ( all morning) of the School's position on this central issue. Questions will be taken at 5pm this afternoon.........



Well no one here could disagree that I place the gender debate squarely on the table could they????EXCEPT now its so 1990's.

Look somewhere in our VISION (probably) MISSON (definitely) or CORE VALUES ( absolutely) you are bound to use the 2009 buzz word, (now flashing up in multicolours on the interactive white board)..... I-N-C-L-U-S-I-V-I-T-Y, OK ? all together now INCLUSIVITY

Now apart from the Cheerleading squad spelling it out at every ball game ( G-d Country Joe and the Fish really had something to answer for after Woodstock, did't they?), what does this mean and why is it important ?

Well gender equality is INCORPORATED in this new lovely shiny catch all,( what I call an 'alpha' word) along with all other forms of DIVERSITY ( another 'alpha' word).thus we don't discriminate whether you are green , blue ,pink , yellow male , female ,indeterminate, variable. Able , physically challenged , have special needs of any kind.....you getting the drift.

We don't have to say it, articulate it , because we are PLEDGED to it - like the flag- . Yes Ms. Louisiana I know you've just started here... I didn't hear that ,sorry, yes one flag, no not THAT flag...the other one, yes the one with MORE stars...OK ...Sorry any questions at 5pm ( I'm off at four to the baseball..)....can we get on?

So the point is, yes, we want to be fair between the sexes, but fair doesn't mean even, or same, it means applying the identified inclusive criteria (IIC's ) to everyone FEARLESSLY. Identical inclusive criteria determined by best demonstrable practice. Our criteria must be CLEAR, UNAMIGUOUS and TRANSPARENT , COMPREHENSIVE and UNIVERSAL, respecting one another , and taking on board the FOCUS and VALUES of the community which we serve..

Now just a second...what are these . IIC's . Well slow doesn't a bit here, because in order to select such IIC's we need to look carefully at what information we actually need.

Well we know that the decision to paddle or not lies firstly with parents and then the student choosing between alternative punishments , but there will be some groups who are objectively unsuited to this form of sanction. Medical , psychological or social reasons. . These 'reasons ' need to be expressed as IIC's and we need to express them in ways that demonstrate comprehensively that their values are community wide. Any testing must be non hierarchical to meet the criterion of comprehensiveness , and whilst it will assist in the identification of students who are unsuitable for the sanction in question it must do so in a way which does not stigmatize or label those students into a sociologically coherent grouping. The test results must not be used for any purpose for which they are not intended, and must not infringe a students constitutional;rights.

Now after lunch I suggest you select your break out groups in which we can consider how to achieve Fair mindedness and inclusivity in terms of medical, psychological and social restrictions on paddling. Alan the school psychologist will be leading the first group, Tracey school counsellor will lead the social criteria group, and of course Dr. John the school physician the medical group. Finally I do hope that before we close we can hear about the new criterion assessment of suppliers and design requirements for our new paddles, from Sue and Jack the ISD procurement officers, who will address issues of the design brief, price, sustainability and fair trade issues, the State wide and federal procurement regulations as well as the implications of the Patriot Act . William the health and safety co-ordinator for the central campus will also be present to proffer advice and guidance.

Lunch will now be served in the cafeteria , I am asked to remind you that all food is locally sourced, additive and GM free. Caffeine free cola and coffee are available on request in line with the advice of the Food and drug administration and the Surgeon general's office rare meat is not served in this school. Neither are eggs available sunny side up unless you sign the waiver form in triplicate available from my office.

Thank y'all for comin' .an' have a good day........


Sunset at Bythebook Junior High Midred State (nowhere near Melton Mowbray)

The only anecdotal accounts of the total impact (physical and otherwise) of the paddle seem to come from pesters and jesters but there are some authentic posters that give credible accounts. Oddly enough it's the consenting adults (a la TWP experiment) that give the most reliable accounts. Three swats on the so called sit spot can get to the bottom of problems that other disciplinary actions don't seem to do as well according to some schools here and if properly administered it should provide a not so gentle reminder when sitting on a hard surface for a day or so and not cause deep skin bruising. Since Dr Dominum description of his six of the best versus three licks here I'm open to the cane and the target of its intention. Everything but no CP is on the table and I've been given a free hand. But remember I only have until school starts in September in theory.

Perhaps some are a wee bit too dismissive (as I was about bow or not to bow) with regard to gender equality. In my lifetime and I'm in my fifties I've witness the benefit of gender equality and my daughter has benefitted from it. Medical and law schools have become 50/50 and so competition has become stronger for entrance. Hilary Clinton's law class had a lot less woman not to mention minorities than Michelle Obama when they went to Yale and Harvard Law Schools respectively. Fifteen years before Obama, Clinton couldn't apply to many all male Ivy League undergraduate schools like like Brown and Harvard but would have to settle for their little sisters Radcliffe and Pembroke instead. Clinton went to Wellesley an all woman college. I'm glad that my daughter doesn't have to face as many obstacles.

USA Schoolgirls (Good for them) IMHO would be the first to complain if exceptions were made for them for corporal punishment even before the boys would yell foul. So I'm leaning strongly against that There won't be any coed wrestling matches in my schools how dumb can the liberals get? I do admire the courageous women of the Armed Services who have suffered more casualties (some that would be fatalities 40 years ago in Vietnam) and fatalities than the Vietnam War while in Baghdad and not in the safer periphery of Basra.


Corpun 19858 is something I'm weighing seriously but sorry not BB paddlings KK but thanks for the safety concerns. Though a school nurse visit put into the parental consent form might not be a bad idea. Malayasia may bring back JCP and SCP in 2009. I'm open to ideas so keep them coming.

Prof.n,

I am sorry but your proposed consultations are too hurried and superficial to pass muster. What about people whose first language is not English? What about people who have children to care for or who will be working? Why no consideration of the stress on those call upon to administer? It will not be possible to reach a conclusion in just one day.

What about people whose first language is not English? What about people who have children to care for or who will be working? Why no consideration of the stress on those call upon to administer?

KK the postion of school nurse has just opened and there is no one I know who is more concerned with the health and safety of our students and more so now considering possible changes in our corporal punishment polices. In this economy few parents are both working and I would never ask a faculty member to paddle a child for any reason especially if they found it on to be such an onerous task. Online you will find student bilingual student handbooks for our ESL (English as a second language). Keep them coming school is back in September.

American Way, you make some valid points but will the nurse be trained in alternative medicine or just sterile western scientific medicine? It may be wiser to add some alternative therapy practitioners to the paddling panel.

And will there be any public opinion polls? Unless you ask a lot of daft people a lot of daft questions how can you know what to think yourself? The pollsters can be paid for their services out of the teachers pay.

What arrangements are going to be made for the news media and public interest? We do have a right to know, you know.

Given the positive reaction to the New York Times story the community should stand by the School Committee pending approval of the handbook provided of course this esteem Forum can work out a consensus. I'm an ACBD kind of gut. Always consult before deciding. Remember September will soon be upon us.

With reference to alternative methods do you include arnica for bruises on the bottom and acupuncture for pain for the hand pain not to mention repetitive stress disorder on the faculty. We might have to expand the swat team. The first thing I would do is get rid of that woman in the office. And is that paddle shaped differently because she uses it only on the girls' wider bottoms No wonder the girls are lining up to be paddled. Sorry KK I'm leaning toward the tawse on the hands if only I could find that woman interview by the BBC. I'm sure it will be a better one than the safety precaution demonstration on the video. She barely swings it.

Taking the holistic approach would you recommend arnica for the bruises and what alternativives would you have for Advil, Aleve or Aspirin that may be less likely to increase the risk of alzheimers. Forty years ago a few children took medicine seasonally now who doesn't? Give them a peanut and you've got a lawsuit on your hands. What nasty habits kids pick up? Where in the world do they get them?

Hi american way .

Three serious posts about tawsing may help you make up your mind.








http://groups.yahoo.com/group/schoolcp/message/4697

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/schoolcp/message/4703

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/schoolcp/message/4729

prof n offered good advice about the Southern states coming together for a corporal punishment policy. California was getting there as can be seen by this link. I would love to search that full commmission report. I'm sure there are a lot of people better at finding links. It would keep me from reinventing the wheel. It's almost 30 years old and gender considerations weren't the focus but safety and fairness were and that's what I'm working on for the handbook. Maybe some of these ideas from this artcle can become talking points. I'm leaning on staying with the paddle and to have two men present for a boy and two woman for a girl. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Bobbi Fielder wanted to experience the paddle and girls and boys are wired differently so same gender paddlings make sense. Girls are less likely to wear jeans so modesty can be a concern and likewise same gender witness makes sense. It's just not a matter of writing the handbook it's a matter of preparing to answer questions from the board and presenation of it to the parents. Of course it has to be enforceable by school authorities and in the language students can understand. Almost everything WAS on the table. Three weeks and ticking.

handbook ideas for talking points

Hi American Way
I have no experience on both sides of the paddle / cane / belt etc
I am also against CP even I know that sometimes it can help (when the student accept it as something he/she deserves).

My opinion:
1. Fairness:
a. Only the guilty person should be punished, if doesnt know who did the crime no one will be punished (I wrote a small story I heard in Steve Ms post about this issue).
b. The offences that require CP should be define ahead in a book.
c. No accumulation, I mean no collecting detentions in a term should be a reason for (as I red somewhere), only a well-defined crime.
d. The child should always have the right to explain him/her self to some one who will listen.
e. A student shouldnt be given as an example to others, only the crime it self should be the reason for punishment and with maximum privacy (it shouldnt be mentioned near other students after or before the act).
f. Another issue of fairness could maybe looks a little bit bizarre and I thought about it when I saw a lady spoke about CP in a BBC show. She supported it very much and said it is sharp and hart a lot but then its over, I wondered if she ever tasted it (Heard it was always more boys issue).
For my bizarre opinion every teacher who send students to get CP or do it him/her self should take a CP (on the receiving end) of the same kind as a part of a training, I know it sound crazy but when you send someone to a painful punishment you should know what he/she is going to deal with.

2. Equality.
a. I am not sure about girls (period, napkins, etc.) so I wont add any comment just that it isnt fair to have two populations at the same school that only one is subject to CP.
b. Even I dont like the idea at all maybe bare bottom could be a good solution for the differences between kind of cloths (of course with the same gender rule).

3. Note: Just remember that this punishment is sever and should hart a lot (if not whats the point?) and therefore think about the rights of adults in a court (better think about the rights of adults in Singaporean court) comparing to the very easy decision took on punishments in schools.

Now we are starting to get into deeper waters. I think it is about now we start to ask the philosophical questions which our 'pragmatics' normally lead us to avoid.?Non of these are one part questions. So I'll put one down here and see what if any response we get.


First order questions

Why do we want to utilise corporal punishment? What are our aims ? How does it satisfice ( as it can never satisfy entirely ) those needs? Will it be universal or selective? Voluntary or compulsory?

As you answer these questions, so you will narrow down the possibilities of the type of system you want to introduce.

I would suggest we want a happy, safe school, where individuals are respected and protected and in return take responsibility for there actions. Taking responsibility , means acting as a good citizen, and , when and if, the child crosses a boundary he or she agrees that they must accept punishment ( NB not a particular punishment ) in recognition of their transgression over a red line drawn for the mutual good.

We as staff or parents must equally accept that the primary purpose of punishment are to deter and reform ; it is no use punishing a pupil in a way which will alienate him or her further from the social group and have negative consequences whether psychologically or sociologically. You might want to argue deterrence is sufficient justification on its own....? In any case this sort of testing is also somewhat intrusive into areas that previously were seen as the province of the family alone. . Nowadays we know that this places a burden on the institution, to properly assess each and every student against set criteria to determine what punishments, in a psychological or sociological sense will do the least harm and the most good.

We are committed as teachers not to do harm, so understanding that harm is done to small sub groups of children by any punishment, whereas the same punishment can be amazingly effective for a another sub group, moves us away from the concept of universality. Because universality is the most unfair system of all. This may involve decisions some teachers are unhappy with. Actually they are decisions that have been made probably so long as there has been an education system, about equity and appropriateness , not equality. Punishment can be equal but different.

It is just that in the past these judgements seem to have been made on grounds which cannot stand scrutiny. In the American state system more black kids get hit than white,, more working class than middle class , fewest middle class 'A' grade white girls , most black working class underachieving boys. In Britain it was pretty much the same, except for upper middle class white boys going to the 'great' public independent) schools. If you doubt this, don't just look at the traditional sociologists, look for example at the work of John Corkish, who publicised his school's punishment book in Litherland ( Merseyside) in the 1970's. John was not STOPP activist, yes he had read Marx , but was an English teacher from a working class trades unionist background. Not soft, (about 17 stone and 6'3 or so ) He didn't object to a kid getting a slap, just didn't see the point in hitting the same few over and over and over again.

Now actually , it can be the middle class high performers who may benefit from a short sharp shock. Those who push the boundaries just for the hell of it.....to test out, isn't it Newton's third law...to every action......there is an equal and opposite reaction! ( for those who wish to be literal ; Actioni contrariam semper et oequalem esse reactionem) . Which brings us to our next point. The parents.

Parents must back the school. Give them opt outs well yes if they have no alternative choices, but ideally they buy the package out of choice. See its so easy for the bright kid to think he or she can beat the system by divide and rule .Let me tell you a story. I used when I was young ( around 9) to play frequently with a brother and sister who lived about half a mile away ( we lived in the idyllic Yorkshire countryside at the time) Occasionally my parents left me with these friends overnight, and we reciprocated. My Mum was strictly 'no spank'. My friends Mum wasn't ..one day we broke a golden rule for both families ...we went playing in an old abandoned shell of a house, very dangerous and often frequented by 'undesirables' . We were seen by a neighbour who told my friends Mother, of course when confronted all three of us denied it.....and in the end the truth cam out we got a good spanking, with a taste of the strap thrown in for lying, which was seen as the much more serious offence. I was intent on my revenge , so told my mum sure that there would be a row. .she just looked at my backside and commented ' well she's done a good job, if you need a spanking in future I know where to send you!'.Of course backing each other up. And that's why you need parents who support the moral and disciplinary code.

And that brings us to the $64,000 dollar question......what about the child's role? Can be punishment be simply at behest, the selection of the school and parents .What about squaring the triumvirate? I ask this because in our society in addition to the groups who should no be punished physically, note I have NOT said gender groups, by colour or race, by religion etc, just by best practice on the assessment of psycho-social variables. What when a child says no? Are we prepared to enforce punishment, well you know my answer is negative to that, but there are all types of nuisances.

For example I posted this recollection about a friend some time ago as a part of long posting on 'fairness' on Doctor Dominum's site on Yahoo. The extract is pertinent if only to show the maturity of thought of an 11/12 year old girl.:-

Extract from posting 4648 19th April 2009 ( author myself). :-


Thirdly, it isn't that we were all looking for vindication. One friend
,I'll call her T, told us how when she was in the top class at prep
school there was a huge row about a snowball fight when some young girls
were hurt by accident. . Several girls were involved in it and the
Headmistress investigated. T was one and with some others when asked
owned up, She was a good student , successful and a high flyer, with a
good conduct record, she was let off with a warning. Another friend who
owned up , who was not either a school success or a high flyer, was
given two strokes of the cane on her hand. They both did the same thing
; they both owned up and admitted they were ring leaders. They were all
told off, two were sent back to class, and four received the two strokes T
said she didn't want the cane, indeed she was frightened of it, and
whimpered when interviewed. But it was unfair one should get it and not
the other.

T was furious . the class each kept a diary and every week they read
them out and the one with most votes was put on the class noticeboard as
'news'. T wrote a piece about fairness, and how justice should be
'blind' to the perpetrator. The Headmistress saw it and took down the
critical piece. The head told her discipline was nothing for her to get
concerned about , leave it alone, but , if you carry on writing this
type of piece, you will find out what the cane is all about.

So T refused point blank to write another entry in the diary on the
grounds what was the point if she was only going to get into trouble for
her views? When threatened with a detention, she desisted and wrote what was then a new political joke:-'

I learned a Russian joke today . They have two papers in Russia one
called the Truth and one called the News. The joke is there is no news
in the truth and no truth in the news'

The class voted that entry to be put up the next week . She didn't get
caned.


So finally , we shouldn't underestimate the kids............

that's enough to think about in one post!

I like the Amish and Missouri handbooks. I like the idea of putting on a laminated card with the code of conduct (maybe with a magnet to adhere to the refrigerator door). Clear is clear. I'm also of the mind that if a parent does not put their child on the No Paddle list then the school authorities alone should choose the disciplinary sanction options certainly not the student. Fair is fair. High schools have the eighteen by four inch paddle and a half inch thick and high schools often have five swats. I like the three swats properly administered with that paddle (unlike my predecessor Anthony Price bigger paddle) for the middle school. If you Google image school paddle you will see in the fourth row on the left the correct size paddle as seen in TWP on July 27. The far right on the fourth row is the Principal of Everman. Properly administered to me means the proverbial assume the position with feet parallel to the shoulders depending on the students fitness with childhood obesity being an epidemic here they may have to put their palms on the seat of a chair. The model shown is certainly fit but then again she is not 15. The lining up and force is crucial and I may need pointers there. Some are concerned about menstrual matters but woman teachers can be privy to these matters but that can only delay the inevitable paddling. But Paula Flowe says that the girls may play the gender card and so we are putting to much temptation before them to lie and their put an unfair burden upon them in respect to CP. Paula should take that up with God and not the school boards. The next part is the hardest and that is what I think that our resident philosopher, a priori prof n, is rightly emphasizing or why the rules in the first place and for what objectives. That is where the handbooks prefaces come in hand. Prof n I agree were down to 20 states that permit it and fewer and fewer districts within those states permitting it as well and those who can use it fearful of flack it's important that those in favor of school corporal punishment get it right. I've posted Winona MO so this the same state but a little different. Their state sets guidelines are standard in their general policies and that's what southern states sorely need.

Missouri newly posted handbook

http://www.mpsd.k12.ms.us/handbooks/codeofconduct0607.pdf

From time to time this month Ill be putting up ideas IMHO worth perusing. Mish mashing MO and MS school handbooks is helping me to get ready for the writing of the Code of Conduct. I like the idea of assertive discipline and the clarity of the ladders. The ladder is great because the options are in the parents court and dollars to donuts the parents would prefer CP for their child. The students opt for it for at Everman seemingly for different reasons. Its interesting to not that paddling rates are 3 to 1 boys to girls but there seem to be a lot more girls choosing CP judging by the Everman interview. Maybe because the Principal paddles the boys and as one boy said he didnt want any part of him!!! I dont think the boy even in the demonstration paddling seemed as happy.

There is a minimum of accumulated offenses as one person rightly objected to them. The overwhelming majority of the offenses start at the second rung where CP is permitted. Minor offenses can be handled by a verbal reprimand as most incidents would be anyway. Arent PDF greats in finding word sensitive searches on corporal punishment as in the above link? MS has the highest of corporal punishment. Corpun has broken the DOE code. Im not sure how hard it is to break it down from county to city as I did in Booneville gathered from AKs DOE and have tried with Nolan Ryans home city Alvin TX (remember that dispute over numbers) and of course Everman TX.

Corpun has for the above linked Meridian Public School District MS (1,070 paddlings in 2004-05, according to federal statistics).

Read this propaganda. See Corpun 12771. "The idea of a big white guy hitting an 80-pound black girl because she talked back to the teacher did not sit well with me," said McLaney, who resigned his assistant principal's post soon after the school year began rather than carry out his superior's instructions.

Paula Flowe loves this guy. Of course hes going to paddle more black students..

White Population in Meridian, MS
The estimated White population in the Meridian community is 17,580, which is 44 percent of the total population (The U.S. average is 75.10%).

Black Population in Meridian, Mississippi
The estimated Black/African American population is 21,729, which is 54.4 percent of the total population in town (The U.S. average is 12.30%).

If you scroll down youll see the results of three knee buckling swats with black and blue marks.

Nobody would be asked to paddle against their will even if they didnt have a Masters Degree. Wow isnt he special and Meridian blesses. Give me a break!!! Properly instructed, even considering some bruise easier than others, the results would be different shades of pink or at worse red like a bulls eye on the far cheek from the paddlers swing. Thats another mathematical factor to consider (force through a distance). There will be interracial but will be same gender paddling only in my handbook.

I'm on vacation for two weeks and won't be posting or reading. When I get back I'll start writing my code of condunct. Aren't you lucky?

Hi American Way

In the hope you haven't yet gone away here is an interesting extract. :-

Published summer 2008 , with the references being contemporary 2006 through 2008 ( except 58, standard medical text). A sub set of references check out. Why is it important , because it challenges one of the planks of 'accepted wisdom' that the days of more than 5 swats are well behind us , especially in rural Mississippi


Extracted from Corporal Punishment in US Public Schools
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/us0808/3.htm

Number of Blows
Some school districts corporal punishment policies limit the number of blows a student can receive. For example, the Marshall Independent School District in Texas limits corporal punishment to two swats.51 Students in the Grand Prairie Independent School District near Dallas, Texas, cannot receive more than three licks per day.52 Drew School District in Mississippi states that [n]o more than five (5) licks will be given to elementary students and no more than seven (7) licks will be given to students in grade 7-12.53 The South Delta School District in Mississippi specifies that [n]o student shall receive more than a maximum of five (5) licks of the paddle and only to the fleshy parts of the buttocks.54
In other districts, we received reports of students being subjected to large numbers of consecutive blows, and/or accelerating numbers of blows. A former high school teacher in the Mississippi Delta noted that students might accumulate a number of licks: Say they had 30 licks, they could choose 10 today, 10 more the next day.55 Some students reported accelerating punishments. One Mississippi high school girl said, If its your first time, then you get like, three licks. And then if you continue to go, itd increase to like, three, five, seven, ten.56 Another girl noted, He got to give you from three to nine licks. And most time for curses, hes got to give you three licks for every letter in the curse word you say. You got to be beat down.57 Corporal punishment always carries some risk of serious harm;58 increasing the number of blows exacerbates that risk.
.
51 Marshall Independent School District, Student Code of Conduct, 2006-2007, on file with Human Rights Watch, pp. 14, 15, and 17.
52 Grand Prairie Independent School District, Student Code of Conduct,http://www.gpisd.org/forparents/documents/StudentCodeofConduct2007-2008.pdf (accessed July 18, 2008), p. 61.
53 Drew School District, Drew School District Handbook, 2005-2006,http://www2.mde.k12.ms.us/6720/Files/2005shb.pdf (accessed August 8, 2008), p. 36.
54 South Delta School District (Sharkey-Issaquena), South Delta School District (Sharkey-Issaquena) Student Handbook,http://www.southdelta.k12.ms.us/districtoffice/pages/files/shandbook.pdf (accessed August 8, 2008), p. 20.
55 Human Rights Watch telephone interview with Louise P., Chicago, Illinois, November 19, 2007 (interviewed with family member).
56 Human Rights Watch interview with Nakia D., a twelfth grader in rural Mississippi, December 4, 2007.
57 Human Rights Watch interview with LaShell M., Mississippi Delta, December 4, 2007.
58 Corporal Punishment in Schools: Position Paper of the Society for Adolescent Medicine, Journal of Adolescent Health, vol. 32, no. 5 (2003), p. 389,http://www.adolescenthealth.org/PositionPaper_Corporal_Punishment_in_Schools.pdf (accessed August 8, 2008) (Medical complications [of corporal punishment] may prevent students from returning to school for days, weeks, or even longer. Reported medical findings include abrasions, severe muscle injury, extensive hematomas, whiplash damage, life-threatening fat hemorrhage, and others). See also Chapter VI: Impact of Corporal Punishment for a more in-depth discussion of the physical impact of paddling.




Obviously an agenda here ( himan rights watch) , but it raises some questions , which puts the 'good practice' thing in even starker contrast....don't you think ?

American Way:

Thats another mathematical factor to consider (force through a distance).

I don't think it's just a matter of force and distance.

I suggested in the thread "Paddling: how it works" that the important quantity was the speed of the paddle, and how it changed after impact. The weight of the paddle doesn't have a direct effect; the effect is indirect, because the paddle will decelerate more slowly.

It might be best to think of the action in two phases: before impact, and after impact.

Before impact, it's just a matter of accelerating the paddle to the chosen speed. This can be done with a large force and a small swing (so that the force is applied for a small time), or a small force and a large swing. In reality, of course, the force won't be constant throughout the swing. The heavier the paddle, the more force will be needed for a given acceleration.

After impact is where the interest lies. If the paddle were simply thrown at the target, it would then decelerate naturally, depending on the resistance of the target, and you could in principle work out what happens from the kinetic energy at the moment of impact. But in reality, energy is being transferred to or from the arm during the follow-through, so the deceleration is not what you'd expect. I suspect (though this is really just a guess) that there are three things going on here.

First is the intention of the administrator. If the blow is aimed at the surface of the target then the paddle will already be decelerating on impact. This, I suppose, would be the safest approach in a school, especially with younger pupils.

Alternatively, the blow could be intended to be hard, with no deceleration planned. The arm will decelerate nonetheless. There will be an instinctive deceleration caused by the shock of the impact being felt by the arm. And there will also be a visual/psychological effect, because you need to train yourself to hit something when you know there will be resistance.

(With regard to this last matter, and completely off-topic: when I was about 14, there was a karate craze at school, with boys trying to see if they could break a foot-length of 2" x 1" softwood. I tried a couple of times, and just hurt my hand. But then I realised that, if I believed that I would succeed and didn't slow down before impact, then actually I would succeed and it wouldn't hurt. It worked!)

I've also had a few more thoughts about what happens after impact, and might post that to the "how it works" thread later on.

Alan Turing,

Hi an interesting post.

Now this is not a scientific observation, but rather just what I remember at the time. What stuck in my mind in regards to paddling as opposed to the cane ( and remember the same person has used , at different times, both implements on me) ...was the different stance.

With the cane I didn't really see what was going on , because firstly she suggested I didn't look for my own sake, ( in her words 'i don't want to frighten the horses) and ,secondly she was stood behind my body line , or , I guess at the very most level with it.I was actually touching toes ( well again, for precision, she was happy enough with hands on knees).

With the paddle it was different. I was braced on the wall at 90 degrees to my hands, and she was to the side of me but within my body line. Thus if the paddle would have stopped when it was , for example level with her leg /arm line that would have been forward of my body line.

I always assumed, that the psychological aim was to really attempt make the paddle travel slightly beyond the normal impact position, to a target below the surface level, like allowing a train to hit the buffers with momentum , rather than allowing it to stop at the point of impact with no compression.

The paddle was aimed for safety- ie clear of bones, ( and effect) at the lower portion of the 'butt' ( to stick with US terminology) and seemed to me to be travelling at an angle upwards on contact. The portion that was really painful after was what could be termed the sit spot. So I think there is a mechanical and psychological element to this .but I don't know if that helps or confuses, but it is clearly my memory of the event , which given its nature is pretty singular....

Also afterwards there was minimal bruising and no haematoma , ( only one small bruise , which had been caused by a swat which was slightly off target, but , of course very considerable reddening which may be I believe nicknamed 'bulls eyes' in the States. .

That may help or just confuse.......

Hi prof.n. I am trying to visualise the positions of punisher and punishee that you describe above for your caning and paddling.

Can I try a different method of describing the positions to see if I have a correct picture please? If we were to draw an imaginary straight horizontal line across the centre of the surface of the target area and extending out on both sides am I correct in saying that in your description above the lady in question would have been:

• Either on that line or on the opposite side of it from you when administering the caning

and

• on your side of the line when administering the paddling?

As I have said many times here I have never been caned (or paddled for that matter). However if I have understood the positions you describe correctly it surprises me from the viewpoint of the physics of the respective implements.

With a flexible instrument like a cane, to ensure a roughly evenly distributed impact across the buttocks I would have thought that the person administering the punishment would need to stand on the same side of my imaginary line as the person being punished and to one side. In that position a section of the cane down from the tip would initially impact the side of the buttocks nearest the caner, to be followed immediately by a section nearer the tip impacting the side of the buttocks away from the caner as the tip end of the cane caught up from the flexure, but without the risk of the tip of the cane wrapping onto the less well padded side of the hip and causing possible injury. If the caner stood on the opposite side of my line to the canee I would have thought the impact would have been almost entirely to the side of the buttocks away from the caner and that the risk of wrapping and hip impact would have been considerable.

In the case of the inflexible paddle I would have thought that to ensure equal impact across the buttocks the person administering the punishment would need to stand more or less on my line, or at least so that at the point of impact their arm was extended along the line. If they stood very far into the punishee side of the line I would have thought that all the impact would be to the side of the buttocks nearest the paddler.

Clearly you speak from practical (and painful) experience whereas I am merely surmising from theoretical considerations. Also the lady who punished you, and who was doubtless very experienced in the administration of both cane and paddle, may have developed her own unique techniques. Or possibly I have taken your descriptions to mean the opposite of what you intended. Any clarification, or refutation of my theoretical musings, much appreciated.

Hi Another Lurker,

I think I see where you are coming from , and I see how what I said can be open to some misinterpretation. If I were an artist, which I'm not , I probably could draw you a sketch, but in the circumstances let me try to verbalise it.

Using YOUR line not mine, ( because my line is some distance 'in front' of yours), then the paddler would stand roughly level with your line ( in terms of , as a minimum, the back foot ) extending forward with the body line thus ensuring that the paddle makes straight contact , and that the nominal target can be within rather than the surface of the butt, thus ensuring less deceleration of the paddle (i.e.) a follow through which is facilitated by the positioning of the body. This was my 'buffer' point. Remember in this case the entire paddle is only about 16inches long, including handle so the paddle boy is about 12x3, so the paddler had to be in close proximity to the target.

As I said the caning is more difficult. I suppose I was less aware of positioning because A) The cane is longer, the paddle is a close contact instrument in comparison,( 36plus , against 16) and B) I was more apprehensive not knowing what was about to happen ! It seemed to me that , again using your line she was directly on it but not in front,, ( therefore behind my line), but on this I guess could be mistaken., and she seemed to pivot to some extent when using it She changed position for the final (horrible!) stroke which 'gated' the first three,and caused me to utter some kind of noise (!) but by then I was past caring....!.Perhaps our good Doctor with this experience would know whether this position is anatomically possible or not!

In my school the 'normal' location for caning was in an old 'closed' gym, where there were two vaulting horses, which were used for safety, and also because the house masters, who did much of the work, didn't have large offices in every case. However, this meant that boys were sent there in a group at a particular time by the staff member doing the caning. It meant waiting in line and , of course given the acoustics,those waiting could hear what was going on, which, certainly with me, tended to build up anxiety. The head , on the other hand caned in his office, and the deputy , well it depended. I think I was so grateful that she was sparing me the 'humiliation' , as I would have perceived it , of this parade, that this too lessened my innate curiosity!.

Now had I known that many years later I might be trying to workout the relative mechanics of the situation, I should have been sensible and accepted to take the cane in the American brace position ( which was what she suggested for safety) but I insisted in taking it 'traditionally' . Why? Because in my brain I thought that given the 'inquisition' everybody got from the other boys , if you'd been caned, they might think I had got off 'easy' by adopting some foreign position....particularly with her, because, as everyone knew we mixed out of school, I didn't want to be seen as her 'pet'. (little fool , why didn't I just accept her advice and then lie.....after all that's what she told me many of them did who claimed they 'kept a stiff upper lip' throughout !). But at that age you believe your peer group rather than see that sometimes those in authority are actually trying to help you!

So I'm sorry A.L. On that, I wrecked the experimental comparability!

Finally , as to her experience , obviously it was significantly greater with the paddle. She had been a VP for about 3 years , before visiting England, and given the rate of reported paddling in Texas at that time, which was , on an average figure around 2,000,000 per annum ( that's over 3 licks, administered by 'administration' only) and when you consider most paddling was 3 -5 licks given in the corridors by ordinary staff, or three licks from an AP/VP for 'set' offences like tardy , or skips,and therefore not reportable, ) : total paddling,????? well your guess is as good as mine .

Caning was picked up over here , I assume. Amongst the boys, caners were assessed on a graph with two axes, hard/soft ( technique) : pleasant/ unpleasant ( temperament) She had a reputation in the school as one of three 'hard' caners ( one of the other two being the Head ),although she scored 'pleasant' alongside it ; which was why many of the boys avoided her by playing the 'same sex caner' card....however then it was the luck of the draw...I understand from others there was a straight up 33% chance of getting soft/pleasant!

So as a poker player would know , if you eliminate her from the equation ( and the head only caned those sent directly to him), your chances were pretty good....and certainly worth a punt.

How far her reputation was deserved I can't judge, not, fortunately, having aquired the comparative experience necessary across the field of senior staff .........prof.n in his youthful incarnation tried to follow (not always successfully) , the maxim ,'Once bitten.....twice shy'


This rambling may help you A.L. or not ......?

Forgot one point to help/confuse you further AL.

Throughout the paddling she kept her free left hand gently resting in the small of my back

As TWP will tell you this is to ensure :-
1. You don't rise during the stroke and thus accidently damage your tail bone

2. The swat or lick is restricted in power by the paddler not being able to reach back beyong the restriction created by the placement of the left hand

( this is further restricted by the 90 degree rule...).

It is by removing these restrictions that the deep tissue bruising typical of many 'abuse' hearings is inflicted.

"Punishment book" and physics
1.
As I red here in some place that the student should sign the punishment book after the punishment.
This (for my opinion) could be a very good idea but with a small addition:
Another coulomb should be added before, defined as "student's notes".
The idea of this coulomb is to give more transparency to the process.
It looks predictable that the majority of students won't add any note but therefore when it will be reviewed these notes will be reviewed with more attention and it could decrease possible unfairness.

2. Physics
As I red here, some people are really interested with the physics of this process so I decided to add my thoughts:
Assuming that the executioner is trained enough to lend the implement "to ensure a roughly evenly distributed impact across the buttocks" (copied from Another_Lurkers post), some equations:

Kinetic energy: ½ mV^2 (m: mass, V: velocity)
Force (F) produce energy along distance (X): FX (this is the force during the stopping of the implement on the target which is a long very short X (when the implement pushes the skin, fat and muscles of the target inside, loosing the velocity along these very few centimeters).

I'll negligible all other forces already mentioned because for my opinion these two are most important:

When the target stops immediately the velocity of the implement there is damage and heat both, I suppose, producing the pain, I also guess that as F is bigger the damage is bigger.

We can write it: 1/2mV^2 = FX which means that all the kinetic energy accumulated push the target with force F along X.

Note: some signs of equation can disappear due to computing problems.

Comparing cane to paddle:
The cane doesn't meet a lot of air resistance so it will be much faster.
As we can see from the kinetic energy equation the velocity is much more significant then the mass (because it is squared), I am not sure how faster is the cane comparing to the paddle but another parameter here is that the cane's area is much smaller and therefore it can really penetrate and make damage.
For my opinion paddle can cause a big pain but the damage will be smaller because the stopping is more on the surface and the force divided on bigger area, so it's preferable.

Buttocks preferable on palm again, less damage.

Bending position stretches the buttocks and therefore makes the X smaller and increases pain and damage (but decrease the possibility of the above parts to be offended).

Girls mainly have bigger and fatter (especially with teenagers) bottoms it can help them take the punishment easier.

Too many thoughts for one post.

Dov:

Kinetic energy: ½ mV^2 (m: mass, V: velocity)
Force (F) produce energy along distance (X): FX (this is the force during the stopping of the implement on the target which is a long very short X (when the implement pushes the skin, fat and muscles of the target inside, loosing the velocity along these very few centimeters).

I'll negligible all other forces already mentioned because for my opinion these two are most important:

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think this is too great a simplification. The implement is held in a hand which is moving, and the muscles of the administrator may (or may not) be continuing to push the implement forward. So the energy to be dissipated is not merely the kinetic energy at the
instant of impact, because energy might be transferred from (or even to) the arm during the follow-through.

Technically, the velocity V is a function of time, V(t). If you write t₀ for the instant of impact, then I assume you're referring to ½ mV(t₀)²; but that takes no account of the energy flow I've mentioned.

For a springy implement like a cane, there's also potential energy involved. When a cane hits, it is curved, and so there's further energy available.

When the target stops immediately the velocity of the implement there is damage and heat both, I suppose, producing the pain, I also guess that as F is bigger the damage is bigger.

Again, the force F is a function of time, F(t). It is not constant.

We can write it: 1/2mV^2 = FX which means that all the kinetic energy accumulated push the target with force F along X.

I don't agree with this as written, for the reasons given above.

Hi Dov,

Just replying to your point 1 , which raised some interesting issues.

Original punishment books were very simple and served the primary purpose of auditing the use of the cane. Over the years they became more complicated and now we have a la Dr. Dominum, computer based multi purpose , all singing all dancing records so many different types of punishment. Obviously any record should essentially demonstrate for gross audit purposes the Who? What? Why? , When? and Tariff?..

In the States , as I understand it, the main audit is by student record , so the punishments are recorded there. I'm not sure I've ever come across a central register outside of the student record, but I'm sure if there is such a thing , one our our informed readership will let us know. In the absence of anything concrete on that score, I assume that the computer record can be trawled to retrieve the necessary audit data.

Any register today would today presumably show if an appeal had been activated , and if so whether against the 'conviction' or the ' punishment', and what outcome was achieved. There must be a provision for staff comments, say, for some reason the punishment is abandoned part way through, or if there is any accidental damage.

Your suggestion for a student comments provision is interesting, and I think good practice. It would be sensible for it to be in file which was merged every so often with the main file, and which was open for the student comment for a few days after the incident. I say this for two reasons. If the audited information is to be of pedagogic use, it should be collected in confidence, just as staff comments are, but , moreover, the student should be encouraged to enter the comments on reflection for their view of the process may change with a little hindsight. In the states the median age for offending is grade 9/10 with a large number of offences at grade 12.these students are no longer 'little kids' and encouraging them to reflect on the incident may have a beneficial effect.

In my case I wasn't caned in my 'High' school equivalent until 15/16 ( grade 10 equivalent). My deputy head did say at the time, that the punishment would be quick, but she would make it last just long enough for me to question to myself 'how come you've got yourself here'? She also gave me a really hard final stroke which certainly did shake me up. Of that she said , ' sorry ( yes really!!!) that's just to let you know what I am capable of doing , if I ever have to...' Of course as I've said she was a psychologist , and had planned her approach carefully. Immediately after the punishment I don't know what I would have written, but a day or so later , I would have commented more maturely on the event.

Such comments would audit whether staff were correctly identifying students who benefited from the punishment, because if they don't reflect on their misdemeanour's, and or cause and effect, they clearly haven't been correctly screened.

You would , of course also pick up quickly is a particular staff member was attracting lots of adverse comments , and why. This should help eliminate the complaint that a student is being victimised.

Hi Alan Turing.

I know I negligible some of the parameters, also not constant forces (just wanted to avoid integrals that I have no idea how to calculate).
I'll try to copy parts of your answer and to answer there under it:

Copy 1: Technically, the velocity V is a function of time, V(t). If you write t0 for the instant of impact, then I assume you're referring to ½ mV(t0)2; but that takes no account of the energy flow I've mentioned.

Answer:
When I wrote V, I meant the velocity at the point of time when it meets the target.
This velocity increased by the hand all the way (start from V(t0) = 0) to the target and then stops on the target along 1 or maybe two cm (which cause big F) as mentioned.
Along the time of accelerating I didn't try even to calculate just took it as (about) constant data.

Copy 2: For a springy implement like a cane, there's also potential energy involved. When a cane hits, it is curved, and so there's further energy available.

Answer: No idea how to take this parameter in account, I guess it is only the air resistance against it who create it so again I took it as negligible parameter (It is against the cane anyway, since it makes it even worse).

Copy 3: Again, the force F is a function of time, F(t). It is not constant.

Answer: The work equation is E (energy) = E (0) + FX (at least one of the work equations), which means constant force F a long way X is a work wasted.
If you start from E = 0 with F along X (no friction) you can calculate the velocity by assuming that after Known X the kinetic energy is ½ mV^2 and now (with known m) you can find V (from KX = 1/2 mV^2).
I didnt look at all at the F of the hand, just the F to stop accumulated velocity along very short X (penetration to the target of cm or two, hopefully by flexibility of it and not injure).

I feel it is easier now to explain my point about your start with the hand force still pushing during the meeting with target: This force is pushing along the very short X and it is more or less the same force used along the way of accumulating the velocity and therefore it is just like starting this way 2 cm higher (which is not measurable), so this force is really negligible.

My opinion of course (learn physics long ago).

Hi Prof.n
I agree with most of your points.
As I already mentioned I am afraid that there is a lot of unfairness in the CP issue.
Note: Of course it doesnt mean that I don't accept that rules are rules and if speaking during assembly requires "six of the best", that's it (until be changed as it should).
Unfairness I mean by catching the wrong guy, take fast decision and execute.
With a hard copy (about like I saw as picture here somewhere), the offence is written by the executioner and then asks the student to sign.
It looks to me that when a student sign he (or she, I'll use only he, mean he / she) doesn't only sign about the punishment he got but also he actually agrees with the offence he just denied before.
Now when everything runs by computers it could be even better because the student can recover first and then when he feels more comfortable it is easier to write the denial of the crime, so at least it will be seen in his file for future decisions and if somehow it was discovered he was the wrong guy, it should also be written there (with big red letters of apology).

Follow upon Drew High School (August 8th post @18.39 local)

School statement :-

While the Drew School District does use paddling as a form of punishment, according to the district handbook "the student's right to due process will be protected."



The Bolivar Commercial, Cleveland, Mississippi, 22 August 2008


The handbook outlines that "before any determination of guilt is made, the student will be informed of the accusations made and offered the opportunity to comment on them to the principal.

"If the principal determines that corporal punishment will be issued, (paddling) will be administered in a manner that is not designed to cause ridicule, shame, or intimidation by the student's peers," the policy said.

In Drew Schools, paddling is administered by a principal, in his or her office, and a minimum of two certified employees must be witness to the punishment.

The policy also outlines the paddling routine itself, explaining that "no more than five licks will be given to elementary students and no more than seven licks will be given to students in grades seven through 12."

Upon written request, the school will provide the pupil's parents or guardian with a written explanation of the reason for the punishment and the name of the adult witness.

Parents who object to corporal punishment must submit a letter to exclude their children from corporal punishment.






On trying to obtain the 2009 handbook through the USG information site ( Freedom of information) the site address is identified and marked available, however whatever browser I use the file itself comes back ' No data/empty' and appears to have been in this state for soemtime......



The following information was eventually found :-

( Prof.n goes hunting again!!!)

FIRST From S&P




1.1.47.0

Mississippi Schools > Drew School District > Drew High School Print this page | Email to a friend

Drew High School
District: Drew School District
Grades: 9-12

288 Green Avenue
Drew, MS 38737
PHONE: (662)745-8586


District Household Characteristics

Number of Households 1,523
Single-Parent Households 26.2%
Adults with at Least a High School Diploma 57.5%
Adults with at Least a Bachelor's Degree 7.7%

State Tests

Schoolwide Reading Proficiency ? 58.6%
Schoolwide Math Proficiency ? 75.0%

Classroom Profile

Students Per Teacher ? 15.6
Enrollment ? 218
Economically Disadvantaged 100.0%
Breakdown by Ethnicity
White 5.5%
Black 94.5%
...More classroom details

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SECOND From GREAT SCHOOLS 20009 A STUDENT AND TEACHER SPEAKS :-

Page 1 of 1

Posted June 29, 2007

Drew High School has had it's problems but over the last 3 to 4 years their has been a significant turn around in both academics and athletics. We have been a level 3 - Successful School for the past two years and this year scores are up to maintain or improve our standings. Our athletic teams have done well. There is a definite sense of community at the high school where students always receiving exposure to positive things. Those who are disgruntled are those who fail to believe in the young folk and who seek to discredit the children themselves including parents who want to see social profiling and board members who have age old issues. There are good kids and teachers who could have benefited from more community support.
Submitted by a teacher

Posted May 16, 2007

This school has some problem that it need to deal with. They need good teachers that are going to help the student lean better. They need good leadership. They need a good football and basketball program. Just to put all in one they need someone to in and knows what to do.
Submitted by Lavoric Addison, a former student

Finally, even Good progressive districts are unwilling to divulge just what happens Paddling wise ....Instance :- handbooks which are vague to the point of meaninglessness e.g. Esat Jasper , a 'modernizing' district (see page 15)

http://www.eastjasper.k12.ms.us/forms/studenthandbook.pdf



So Thank y'all folks , you can make your own mind up about Mississippi !

Oh dear, I'm going to sound like a grumpy old man!

Dov:

Copy 1: Technically, the velocity V is a function of time, V(t). If you write t0 for the instant of impact, then I assume you're referring to ½ mV (t0)2; but that takes no account of the energy flow I've mentioned.

Answer:
When I wrote V, I meant the velocity at the point of time when it meets the target. This velocity increased by the hand all the way (start from V(t0) = 0) to the target and then stops on the target along 1 or maybe two cm (which cause big F) as mentioned. Along the time of accelerating I didn't try even to calculate just took it as (about) constant data.

OK, by "kinetic energy" you mean the kinetic energy of the implement at the instant of impact.

Copy 2: For a springy implement like a cane, there's also potential energy involved. When a cane hits, it is curved, and so there's further energy available.

Answer: No idea how to take this parameter in account, I guess it is only the air resistance against it who create it so again I took it as negligible parameter (It is against the cane anyway, since it makes it even worse).

No, the cane becomes curved and acquires potential energy even in a vacuum. This phenomenon is caused by the inertia, because the cane is accelerating.

To see whether this is significant or negligible, you'd need some numbers and a calculation. But in photographs I've seen of a cane being used, it is significantly curved. If, now, you hold a cane and curve it by hand, and then release it, the tip will be moving quite fast when the cane straightens out.

This suggests that the potential energy in the curvature will provide a significant amount of energy.

In any event, the potential energy makes the effect worse.

Copy 3: Again, the force F is a function of time, F(t). It is not constant.

Answer: The work equation is E (energy) = E (0) + FX (at least one of the work equations), which means constant force F a long way X is a work wasted.
If you start from E = 0 with F along X (no friction) you can calculate the velocity by assuming that after Known X the kinetic energy is ½ mV^2 and now (with known m) you can find V (from KX = 1/2 mV^2).


No, you're making an incorrect assumption.

I assume you're talking about the force of the paddle on the target. If, during the period from the impact until the paddle comes to rest, there were a constant force, then you could carry out the calculation you have made and, knowing V, X and M, find F (for instance). But the force is definitely not constant. At the moment of impact, it is zero, and then it increases as the compression of the target increases.

To see this, observe that there is an equal and opposite force of the target on the paddle, by Newton's Third Law. Where does this latter force come from? From the compression of the target in the direction of motion. At the instant of impact, this force is zero, because there is no compression. The force increases, and is a maximum when the paddle has reached its furthest point and come to rest. So the same must apply to the force of the paddle on the target.

So the work equation does not give enough information to calculate F(t) for the times between the impact and when the paddle comes to rest. You also need to know how the force is related to the compression. For a spring, you can use Hooke's Law. For flesh, the answer will be more complicated.

I'd also want to make the point that the pain will depend on the local distortion of the flesh, given by the strain tensor; you calculate this from the stress tensor. The force on the surface of the target will provide boundary conditions only.

I didnt look at all at the F of the hand, just the F to stop accumulated velocity along very short X (penetration to the target of cm or two, hopefully by flexibility of it and not injure).

I feel it is easier now to explain my point about your start with the hand force still pushing during the meeting with target: This force is pushing along the very short X and it is more or less the same force used along the way of accumulating the velocity and therefore it is just like starting this way 2 cm higher (which is not measurable), so this force is really negligible.

I don't find this argument convincing. The force accelerating the paddle isn't constant; it decreases as the speed of the paddle increases. (The force comes, ultimately, from the contraction of one or more muscles, and the force they exert reduces as they contract.) But as the paddle slows down abruptly, there is more scope for force to be applied. (And also, don't forget the kinetic energy of the arm!)

There's also anecdotal evidence that "aiming through the target" hurts much more than "aiming at the target".

To summarise: I think that the work equation is insufficient to tell you what's going on, and the assumption that the force is constant is definitely wrong. Furthermore, some of the aspects deemed negligible do, in fact, have significant effects.

Alan Turing writes:-There's also anecdotal evidence that "aiming through the target" hurts much more than "aiming at the target".



That,Alan, put in a sentence, is exactly what I was trying to describe to Another Lurker ( see above) This is just what my friend from Texas always claimed she did with both the cane and paddle.

I assume it was something like her other trick - when on holiday my girlfriend and I attempted unsuccessfully on many occasions to throw her in the swimming pool, we always ended up there ourselves instead. Apparently she had trained at one time in martial arts, and probably therefore was proficient at efficiently applying her strength , and getting a lot of bang for her buck- if you see what I mean.

Oh ! Believe me if you've been unfortunate enough to experience it on the receiving end : it is more than anecdotal!

What is is to be a concise mathematician , not an expansive social scientist!

Hi prof.n. My apologies for the delay in responding and my thanks for the additional information on your experiences of paddle/cane and the physical mechanisms thereof. I shouldn't really have pushed you for additional details because I am quite certain that had I experienced a severe corporal punishment the very last thing I would have been noting at the time would have been exactly how it was done! That you tried to recall the painful details after several years was above and beyond the call of duty even by the high standards expected of contributors to this estimable Forum!

I think you've solved my query regarding paddling, but I am still left with something to resolve on caning. I have never been caned, and I have never caned anyone, and at nearly 67 neither contingency is going to arise now. Sadly though once I get a query in my mind I need to resolve it however abstract it may be. I think I need to sketch some simple overhead view diagrams and throw myself on the mercy of Doctor Dominum for an expert opinion.

Hi Dov. I'm not going to get involved in the maths you are discussing with Alan Turing. Way over my head! I will say though that you've picked a heavyweight to dispute that kind of thing with!

However, you say:

Note: some signs of equation can disappear due to computing problems.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if the problem is getting something to display properly in your posts drop me a note in the Computing Corner thread about what seems to be going wrong and I'll try to help.

Hi Another Lurker,

Thanks for the post . I think you are right with your next step, but don't worry about asking for clarification...I'm happy to do so, its sooooooooo long in the past!

Only one comment . Interestingly you used the word 'severe'. I wonder what that really is ? I couldn't say if mine was , really can only say two things

1)After the paddling I never smoked or bought cigarettes from that day to this
2) Did my attitude improve after the caning?......well I guess it must have done, I didn't get another one and she had threatened six if there was no improvement.....!!

So I admit they was deserved, whether they were severe, is , I suppose for others , and history to judge!

Hi prof.n. You say above:

Only one comment . Interestingly you used the word 'severe'. I wonder what that really is ? I couldn't say if mine was

I used the word 'severe' deliberately, for two reasons:

I've never been caned, and I only saw a cane once in my school career (shock and awe effect, prominently displayed on table to be viewed with trepidation by little lads like me up before the prefects' court) so I can't assess the effects personally. However in the 'senior' department of my junior school (we juniors weren't caned) the cane was regarded as something out of the ordinary and to be feared. At my secondary school only the prefects and the Headmaster caned. Prefects' canings, though limited to three strokes, were viewed as distinctly unpleasant, though some people did get more than one. However, while I was there I don't think anyone went back for a second dose from the Headmaster. He seldom caned, but when he did so it must have been pretty devastating for the recipient. Like our eminent contributor Alan Turing he was a well qualified mathematician and I think he must have utilised those formulae to good effect! So, based on those personal, if distinctly second hand, experiences the cane was by any standards a severe punishment.

Secondly I once saw on the web (but stupidly failed to save either article or URL) a fairly learned item on pain by someone apparently medically qualified which said, quite out of the blue and amid lots of other pain comparisons, that for many people six of the best at school would be the most severe pain they would experience, comperable to giving birth, though clearly not so prolonged. And before anyone leaps in to shoot me down, I'm not expressing an opinion, I'm repeating an opinion expressed by someone else! So, again a severe punishment!

Seeking some information prior to posting in the 'Rodney School' thread I was led, via various interesting diversions, one of which I might post about at a later date, to a thread on this estimable Forum called rating pain intensity of c.p..

In that thread at 07:31 on 19 September 2003 Kevin says:

Those who manage pain in hospitals sometimes ask patients to rate their pain on a scale of 0 to 10. If I understand correctly, 0 is no pain and 10 is the worst possible pain. I would suggest that in earlier more disciplined times quite a few naughty boys would have had to recalibrate after a visit to the headmaster's office. The first real cane stroke I experienced was a 12, i.e. more painful than I thought was possible.

And subsequently at 12:49 on 28 Demember 2005 Watson John says:

The only objective measure of pain I have ever encountered was by a 'dolorimeter' (from the latin dolorous for sorrow). The dilation of the pupil of the eye was measured - the wider the pupil then the greater the pain. This reflected sympathetic nervous activity, particularly adrenaline and noradrenaline. Examples are: toothache 2, sinusitis 4, trigeminal neuralgia 8. The highest recording was childbirth - sorry girls - curiously at 11.5. Caning was not measured so perhaps an experiment could be set up?

Caning 12, child birth 11.5 - and I have just posted above in resonse to prof.n a reference to an article I'd seen which likened the pain of caning to that of child birth! Curious or what?

Yes, alright I know that the two old posts here are not (or at least presumably are not) using the same measurement scale, but why let facts stand in the way of a good story!

Hi Alan Turing
I guess it will be too heavy file if I'll just copy all and then add my notes, so I'll just try to give my remarks to main physics issues we discussed.
Note: Just hope that this kind of discussions won't appear in high school physics book while some sore students will fill uncomfortable and embarrassed during the class (a bit sarcastic).

I agree that the force is not constant along the very short way after lending on the target (for all implements), I just have no data about the changes (also agree it becomes stronger from the surface to deeper).
I didnt think about it first (just assumed constant) but because of the very short distance the force will be very big also if assumed constant.
It is maybe more simple to ignore all this issue with the force and just look at it from "energy point of view" that wasted in a very short time on a very small area (cane) and cause there damage (not permanent hopefully) and heat (only my opinion of course).

About the springy potential energy: you are totally right with the inertia and not only air resistance (I just forgot it), just one question about it:
Lets assume constant hand force and constant mass of canes while one cane is very flexible and the other is not.
Dont you think that the springy one will arrive to the target with the same amount of energy like the hard one and just the distribution between kinetic and potential energies will be different so the effect will be finally the same?

About the last issue (force at the "meeting point"): Start from the end: the kinetic energy of the arm is a part of the whole kinetic energy accumulated, it is not negligible, I must agree, but also not a part of the momentary force of lending.
If its agreed to look on the issue from "energy blowing on target" point of view, I think this force is working a long very short distance, so I still think that starting few cm far or close to target is just the same and that's why I assumed negligible.

Thanks
Dov

Hi Another_Lurker.
I think it is now better.
First I prepare a word file (using speller, not for this short response, and think about what I wrote), then copy and paste to the response here and then delete and write again commas, dots, brackets, etc...
It looks better now.
Thanks
Dov

Another Lurker, Thanks for your posts.

Actually to be fair I made a rather 'flip' comment last night without explaining what I meant. My plea in mitigation is it was 3.31 am local time!

' I am a rock
I am an island
and a rock feels no pain
and an Island never cries'
(Paul Simon after John Donne ).


I don't know how many of you remember that particular version , I think it was on the 'Homeward bound' Lp ( yes! Vinyl!!), but at the time when I played country rock it was a frequent request. It strikes me as indicative about my views on the issue of severity and pain.

There are several aspects to this question , and as to why I made the glib response to AL. Firstly, I was schooled in the 70's , not as blood curdling as the 50's no doubt, but not Dr. Dominum's enlightened age of psychological guidance by a long chalk. There were two tendencies over caning.

One as I tried to indicate earlier was that the 'legends' of caning were embellished by the purveyors of the genre. - the regulars. It hurt terribly, but I was a strong man , and never flinched etc.
This was reinforced by the suggestions of if you show pain expect to get extra, you must be 'stoic' in the face of adversity. If you read reminiscence pages you can find this type of comment by the score. These myths , to the extent that they were exaggerated or deliberately twisted served to reinforce an ideology of fear and apprehension amongst especially the wimps or those unsuspecting fools who were for good or ill on the school no caning list.

The second was that a boy who couldn't stand a caning was damaged goods, a coward , a moral pygmy. . Not so long ago on the Yahoo school cp site this augment was advanced about sixth formers who may have refused canings on moral or philosophical grounds, that they would be seen as spineless cowards by their peers, a position with which I strongly disagreed , but will leave to one side. My friend Lyn has commented on the same 'Circus Maximus' expectation with tawsing in Scotland, sorting the hard men from the boys.

Canings were therefore not just a physical deterrent, they played a major role in the development of the ideology of the school , and reflected the character of the boys who suffered them. Of course reports of bravery at the front may be exaggerated, and the ideology of the locker room phoney, but as Pascal put it , kneel down put your hands together and you WILL believe.

I've said elsewhere our school had a league table or graph of hard and soft caners, but unless you were pretty regular you were unlikely to experience sufficient variety to express a cogent opinion .However if I take that at face value then Miss f who caned me was a 'hard' caner along with the Head and one House Master.. secondly the normal 'dose' for a first caning was three or less, unless the offence was serious, so I suppose the fact I received four, and given her position in the chart militated towards. a 'severe' punishment, if by that you mean one which was greater in length and intensity than the 'norm' for first canings. .

She did tell me not to be silly and try to tough it out, but let my emotions go, it was bad to bottle it up and she 'would think no less of me' but she said. I took not a blind bit of notice as expected. My main intent was to get though it without shedding a tear, and keeping my composure, and I very nearly succeeded, shedding only one tear as I recall, with the extra shock given the intensity of the last stroke. She feigned not to notice. . Later she told me of all the so called hard men who normally broke down.....and that I should be proud of my composure ...although psychologically it was foolhardy , but ideologically/ sociologically she expected no less.

Actually the only thought I had at the end, was that I realised how distasteful she found the whole process, ( which might surprise those who see all teachers as kinky or potential child abusers)and that made me feel guilty enough to be stupidly British and offer my hand in ';settlement'.of the score. Teachers like her felt they were doing the right thing for the child, but that didn't mean they were unfeeling or enjoyed it! .

On the other hand, I know from subsequent conversations with Miss F that whilst she had set her mind NOT to break me , she would nonetheless give me a caning that no one could claim was soft ( to ensure I wasn't seen as treated in any special way- as I was still officially on the no cane list).

So according to that the caning could have been more severe, or would breaking me have classified as brutal? Certainly to reinforce this, the fourth stroke was far far harder than the others and really took be aback, and really ,to be honest. Made me ' look over the edge of the precipice' . That was her intention ( Just a warning , come back and I can do much worse!) By these standards , of course it wasn't as severe as it could have been.

Moreover add in the time factor. In the 1950's the school allowed bare bottomed canings , often of 8 strokes. By this standard mine, four with only one best stroke, was pretty average at best........but by the end of caning in the school around the 1990's , three or four strokes was considered a very high tariff.......

All rather confused and confusing, I'm afraid AL.....To me none of the social sciences give us absolutes....So the whole exercise is riddled, it seems to me with relativity. Unless our august Doctor Dominum can suggest differently?

Hi prof.n. You say:

Actually to be fair I made a rather 'flip' comment last night without explaining what I meant. My plea in mitigation is it was 3.31 am local time!

You've lost me I'm afraid, it was me that posted at 03:31! But no matter, as you say at the end of your post above, everything is relative!

Another lurker,


I was referring to the post of mine on 12th at 02.08 , sorry copied your reply time !

The flip remark was the comment 'history will judge' .

What history? Whose history? When? Compared to what? With what effect if it was 'severe'?) This was meant to raise the whole issue of moral and contextual relativism....ie Severe, how ? And absolute scale? ( like your pain scale which is probably still contextual and cultural).......or in social context ( ie. compared to others at the same time/ ) Historically ( would it have been seen as severe in 1950 or 1998?).Hence today's posting


One could go further.....Also is the perception of pain purely a physical and autonomic reaction, or is it individually mediated psycho/social,/physical as say the martial arts movement would assert (purely mind over matter ; take yourself to another place) Certainly you cen learn to ignore/cope with pain which id why i maintain the cane is very valuable for those good and ordinary kids who just try crossing a red line, once or twice, it is ineffective in recidivist situations, and hence one main reason for its abolition in Britain: the schools wrongly identified the student population and offences for whom it worked.........


If I tell you it is severe , and/or if I frighten you does that make it hurt more- or less if I minimise the 'fear' factor and empathise? Can you mediate the messages though overriding the autonomic nervous response? Is the response to physical punishment innate or learned? Can you purposively induce endorphins ? These are all cutting edge issues ... The US government has had a whole department of 'brains' on this since Korea......and reverse engineering their reports gave us Guantanemo......

Hope that makes some sense! Its a hughly complex and fascinating subject! As they used to advertise....'all life is there'.

A final thought ...I said paddling worked to keep me off buying or using tobacco.....yes frankly I couldn't look at a packet of cigarettes without remembering it!...but my girlfriend who shared my fate ...just the opposite. It had no effect,except to make her dig her heels in further ' and, as a daughter of the Confederacy show no cowardice in the face of the enemy' (her words).

She had been paddled several times at school in the States by different staff, including her mother for the same offence, and always made matters worse by being deliberately 'sassy'...She boasted how many days Saturday school she'd done for smoking as well...but the day she hit 18 she announced to her Mom and the world she'd given up tobacco of her own accord,it wasn't 'cool' anymore, and never smoked again,- now there is a psychological puzzle for y'all!

Dov asks for a comparison of two canes, one flexible and the other stiff, but otherwise identical.

It depends on, amongst other things, the type of swing. With a backswing continuing smoothly into the forward swing, some of the energy from the backswing will be turned into potential energy, because the cane will be curved at the instant it is stationary. So the total energy will be greater. But, also, the moment of impact will be later owing to the curvature, so there's an additional factor to be taken into consideration.

However, I thing we're trespassing a little on American Way's thread, which is not really about the mechanics of paddling. I've added another post to my own "Paddling: how it works" thread, where I give some calculations to illustrate that knowledge of just the kinetic energy of the paddle at the moment of impact is essentially useless if you want to find out how much a paddling will hurt. In other words: if "how much will it hurt" is the question, then Dov's approach is inherently incapable of giving the answer. Of course if the question is something else then I reserve my position!

Alan Turing: Always feel free to trespass. I took a graduate course in classical and molecular physics so I find this discussion worth following.

As it pertains to school paddles over here in particular three points might bear closer scrutiny one is the difference between round and rectangular paddle, the technique of its application and the relative impact of the clothes worn. The Everman video shows a woman with a round paddle and the man with a rectangular one. My idea is not to configure the paddle according to gender (what's fair or equitable is fair and equitable) but the thickness and fabric of the clothes worn should play a part. How much I don't know? The position as prof n astutely mentioned the brace position protecting both the tailbone and hands and of course preventing aborted canings is a great idea. The brace position (however unjustly) seems to be unseemly and like holes in the paddles a thing of the past. The kids aren't being arrested (up against the wall deleted expletive) or sodomized but appearances do matter and also holes carry the pain factor when thin layers of clothes are involved because of the shearing factor similar to caning and quite frankly from the bare bottom paddlings of slavery doesn't resonate from the many disciplinary sanctions applied to blacks for may reasons to consider than the stereotypical one of racism that plays such a factor among white liberals or a handful of black anti CP zealots. Lash marks may last beyond the auction day unlike the paddle. An injured or recalcitrant slave would be worth more on market day.

Bending over may involve physical challenges but by politely asking them to put the hands on the seat but not over the back of a chair prevents motion similar to the brace position. Over the desk with elbow on the desk (SOP) has proven disastrous. The desk can act like a fulcrum for the arms and protecting the bottom with the hands becomes a natural instinct.

I am of the mind for the pain and bruising factor that the some colleagues may practice among themselves with the typical clothing that the students would wear to judge what it feels like and its marks. It goes without saying with their own gender so it doesn't turn into an S/M party it might be a better idea to use 100% viscoelastic polyurethane foam chalked with an outline on a 12 X 12 by 4 inch cushion wrapped in denim or cotton to compare. Instead of changing the forces as in golf it might be better to change the club or paddle. Different dimensions of the paddle makes for a good talking point from a technical POV. Putting baby powder within the outline and seeing the effect of its impact may or may not be of value but it would save a lot of bottoms including the faculty members.

In my new hypothetical as principal no woman will either witness or paddle a male student nor likewise a man to avoid student embarrassment (though some may say so be it) and raising eyebrows often unjustly nor would any parent, student or teacher would be involved against their will nor would any student struggled with while administering a paddle. The idea that this prohibition should imply that every teacher who paddles someone of the opposite gender is blatantly unjust is I think its a good idea because of the molestation that occur in families much much much more than in the classroom and it gives my fellow honorary lifetime compatriot and her ilk less fodder for munitions. Can you think of any other (physical, mental or emotional) or parity factors that should enter the equation as safeguards? I'm open to suggestions from any expertise (personal, scientific, pedagogical, philosophical or biological).

Hi American way,

Caught your post, on the other strand thanks for the good wishes,

As to spike , well I had a job and a half persuading my browser to play ball, but I eventually got it 'streamed' . Is Spring Break a 365 day a year moveable feast for these guys?

The paddling was difficult to assess, but bear in mind I'd had to skip through 'pancakes on the beach' and '(American)football bulls eyes ' (just don't ask!') before the browser finally submitted.......One wonders why 'Dazed and Confused' ever got a 'R' when you see this lot........

I agree the guy doesn't know what he's doing .just a huge show off (should audition as a human windmill.....or take lessons , perhaps watch D&C in particular the redoubtable O'Bannion , but according to Linklater's script profiles the character was considering a career in law enforcement........)..

Again the position of the girl and the chair leads to a waving hand ( look carefully), which if the first two had been hard could have been dangerous, but the swats - well the first two were fun, the last one was , I agree, more than she bargained for...hey but $70 will buy you a lot of beer to numb your brain and any pain!

As I say on a serious note I am coming to the opinion that the only safe position is the 'brace' which , I understand has some support from the courts in that a number decisions have recommended it for safety.....nice to know the lawyers and medics really care....???? You'd even be safer with the traditional grab ankles, legs apart, same thing reach back and you fall over......as to the front of the chair, as I say watch spike carefully...and additionally there is less to stop the student rising and the tail bone moving....there was reason in the old tradition of sticking the butt well out......

Other positions given the weight of a paddle are too easy to swat the hand by accident or the tail bone if both feet are not firmly on the ground...........Otherwise it would be holding the victim's hands by a witness which personally I think is unnecessary and distasteful, even when meant for the best of reasons.......

In short where there is good medical advice follow it, otherwise the safest is not to specify. If a school board specified hands on a chair and this failed, ( as it will sometimes) ..any good plaintiff attorney worth his salt will point our that a safety assessment had not been carried out ...JACKPOT!!! The police and army don't use the brace position for fun, there is a reason to avoid a clear and present danger.........the same is true with the paddle...TWP don't need to always use this because elementary school kids don't have the strength or will of High school students, I don't see a case succeeding that the brace is a 'demeaning ' position ,( as I say just ask a few of New York's finest....) no more than bending over anything....and to some extent all punishment is demeaning anyway.....something to do with the point of it?

Finally a thought on the same sex issue. There is a clear case that men shouldn't paddle girls but beyond this to me is a red herring.... just look at the statistics. More boys are abused by men than by women by a long chalk. Some of the worst cases of abuse have been men on boys, so why push them into that position just because there are arguments against men being involved with girls...or do we always pander to the court of public opinion , even when its counterfactual? Give students the right to request, but don't make rules that there is no evidentiary basis for. That's when you get into trouble in the courts.

I know more argument is just probably what you don't want ....but I think the arguments on position and boys are counterfactual......and hence cannot be best practice..regardless of ideology and folk myth!

Probably really is au revoir this time.....

American Way
Sorry it looks like I am always on student's side (Believe me I am 50 years old and not one of them) but after I watched the movie with the paddled girl (that you located in the discussion "Vengeance for CP") I think the headmaster (or whatever the executioner is) should give the student the small service of counting the licks.
In addition to the humiliation of the counting loudly (I guess quietly the student count it any way), I think it is much easier to cry quiet then to hide your crying when you are forced to count loudly.
I mean that it should be written somewhere and not up to the headmaster.

Hi Dov. You say to American Way:

but after I watched the movie with the paddled girl (that you located in the discussion "Vengeance for CP") I think the headmaster (or whatever the executioner is) should give the student the small service of counting the licks.

I assume you are referring to the video that American Way linked as 'Ten Swat Paddling'.

The video is a pornographic, or at least an 'adult', video. It is by the well known purveyors of spanking videos, Real Spanking Video Productions. I won't link their site here, because this is a family forum, but you will find a link in the 'about' box at the top right of the page American Way has linked. The 'Real' in the name doesn't mean that the videos represent reality, merely that the chastisements they show are, they claim, actually carried out as opposed to simulated. The girls are, I understand, reasonably well paid.

The video linked supposedly represents an employee being paddled by her boss and has nothing whatsoever to do with Headmasters or schools. Organisations like Real Spanking place this type of video on video sites to draw attention to what they have for sale.

In porn spanking videos it is a convention that the person being paddled or caned or whatever is required to call out the strokes, and sometimes to say thank you for each one. How often that happens in a real school corporal punishment, or a judicial corporal punishment for that matter, I don't know, but I'll be very surprised indeed if anyone can demonstrate that it happens at all!

It was the convention in some UK schools that a pupil having been caned thanked the caner when the punishment was finished and before they were dismissed, but not in very many, and mostly at the top end of the academic or fee paying scales.

First I would like to apologize because I Google the four girls from Rodney and was somewhat taking to task for diverting the thread from its proper place. When I returned from my furlough I was astounded how that mention revived what seemed like a dormant thread!!! If you recall my observation that was disputed that school girls CP fantasy would fade with what I wrongly refered to as the last girl caning. Boy was I wrong. There is something primal about a school teacher and a naughty girl that is even a part of the American fantasy and not just the so-called British vice.

Face it fantacies are usually acted out with a spanking and not a paddling in the bedroom (marotal ot otherwise) but by consenting adults. To assume that every red blooded man would want to act it out in the classroom is blatantly ridiculous. For crying out loud give our teachers some credit for professionalism. It may seem hard to believe for some but teachers are protective of their students as they would be of their own and are rarely the predators that they are accused of being.

Back now to the counting it is atypical to the point of bizarre. The paddling site is flogging porn so that speaks poorly of its mimicry. The context seem more like the sexual harrassment in the workplace than the Principal's Office. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason because sorry Paul from Spanking Facts and Research it is pfyrn a fetish site but technically of superior quality. He posted in our estimable Forum last week. He did post a compilation in our estimable Forum in November.

prof n wrote this after seeing the paddling and the Bottom of the Class Crystel (vengeance thread) slow motion caning that he felt strongly that anyone who had six strokes of the cane would gladly trade that for ten swats. I'm not sure anyone but prof n has been on the receiving end under both but feel free to opine as if I need to encourage you. The racy video compilation (much racier than Bottom of the Class) is also found in safe mode search but don't bother if you've seen it before or found Crystel's caning in the least bit inappropriate for posting here.

British School CP Compilation

Hi A_L
I saw that she is too old and it is only a demonstration but... I thought it's a demonstration to show how it works in schools in the US (also thought that the show with the cane was demonstration of few decades ago in the UK).
Any way if it isn't defined that student shouldn't count licks loudly, I think it should (just in case...).

Hi American Way. You say:

First I would like to apologize because I Google the four girls from Rodney and was somewhat taking to task for diverting the thread from its proper place.

I can't recall what this was about, and if it was me that took you to task I'm sorry. I'm afraid that Another_Lurker is very quick to anger, but he seldom lets the sun go down upon his wrath - it isn't healthy!

Sorry to label your paddling link as a little suspect, although in fact you'd already done that yourself. I was merely anxious that Dov did not misunderstand it. As you'll see above, he very nearly did, in that he thought it was 'a demonstration to show how it works in schools in the US'.

I can't afford to throw too many rocks at anyone over suspect links in this estimable Forum. Some time ago I posted a very dubious link indeed to a picture to make a point to another contributor I was having a dispute with. However, once I knew that the link had done its job I asked the Forum Management to delete the post, which they very kindly did.

I do think we need to be a little careful though. Network54 have, on paper at least (or rather on-screen) very rigid standards for the Forums they host:

8. PROHIBITED CONTENT.

It is Network54's function to operate as an Internet Service Provider, facilitating the free exchange of ideas, opinions, and information. However, Network54 prohibits content or links to content or Network54 Resources that contain(s):

• Nudity, sex, pornography, and/or excessive profanity.
• Adult services. Network54 may not be used to promote, store, or display information or data pertaining to or about escort services or paid companionship services of any sort.
• Material that violates or solicits the violation of any applicable local, state, national or international law.
• Viruses, hacking or other harmful computer software programs.
• Unauthorized use or distribution of copyrighted material(s).

and so on through lots of other banned items. So it would be fairly easy to fall foul of their regulations, and another well known corporal punishment forum did do exactly that with the result that it was removed.

I'm afraid I certainly can't help with any comparison between paddling and caning. I am one of the very few UK contributors here who has never been caned, and I certainly haven't been paddled! I suspect that prof.n's achievement of receiving both during his school days (though the paddling wasn't a school punishment) is probably unique on both sides of the Atlantic!

And finally, let us spare a thought for poor Ms Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno. It is now 08:17 on Monday morning in Malaysia, and she is either on her way to prison or already in custody. Although she claimed to be 'looking forward to the punishment' in a recent report, I suspect she will be somewhat aprehensive!

I think you've solved my query regarding paddling, but I am still left with something to resolve on caning. I have never been caned, and I have never caned anyone, and at nearly 67 neither contingency is going to arise now. Sadly though once I get a query in my mind I need to resolve it however abstract it may be. I think I need to sketch some simple overhead view diagrams and throw myself on the mercy of Doctor Dominum for an expert opinion.

Occasionally there is an innovation in modern education I thoroughly approve of. Most recently this has been the creation of the electronic whiteboard or smartboard (though I still want to keep my old chalkboard). They are an incredibly useful teaching tool.

They've given us some software to learn to use. The idea is we can use it to create simple but reasonably diagrams and animations for our whiteboard displays. I had to practice with it to try and learn to use it properly and decided to see if I could create a couple of animations addressing this issue.

I've created two diagrams that I think give a reasonable sense of what is involved in a 'modern' caning. One shows what I am aiming to do with a three stroke 'normal' caning, the other shows 'six of the best'.

I think they show the idea of caning through. I think they also give an idea of where the caner is standing during a caning (although animating an accurate human being is somewhat ambitious at the moment). They show the horizontal movement of the cane reasonably well, but not the vertical component. Personally I think the horizontal is more the issue, here, the vertical creates somewhat more acceleration and force, but it is less significant than the horizontal delivery.


Three stroke - normal caning


Six of the Best

Thank you Doctor Dominum. Your artistic abilities do you great credit, as does your readiness to get to grips with new technology when retirement is on the horizon. I'll back those statements up with a bit more detail in a moment.

You have certainly clarified most of the points I was unsure of and your animated gifs give an excellent impression of the path both of the cane and the hand holding it, and hence the arm driving it. I admire the 'aiming' taps, the way the cane tip wraps and how the cane deforms to the shape of the unfortunate lad's buttocks!

Just a query if I may. I think from the diagrams that, if it was possible to represent the caner, at the end of the stroke he would be standing more or less facing the side of the chair and its occupant with his right side aligned to or a little below (in your diagram) the final line of the cane as extended to the right. Is that correct please?

I had given up on the idea of putting some diagrams up and seeking your opinion because I simply couldn't produce anything I thought was good enough. I work a good deal with graphics packages and I often modify pictures and diagrams for use on web sites, but when it comes to producing something from scratch I simply can't hack the drawing! I am amazed at the results you have produced.

And finally whiteboards. A friend of mine, an ex-headmaster, loved teaching so much that after taking early retirement he eventually wound up, via a spell of teaching abroad, as a teaching assistant in his local small rural age 11-16 comprehensive school. Convenient to home and offering some flexibility on hours which he wanted. He very soon found out that the teaching staff, even those teaching subjects involving computers, were both technologically challenged and averse to technology. The pupils simply ran rings round them.

Shortly after he arrived the school received a large financial allocation to purchase whiteboards, which it duly did. None of the teachers would have anything to do with them but my friend thought they had huge possibilities. He went as far as producing material for individual teachers utilising the whiteboards. Sadly there were no takers, and when he left the job a year ago the whiteboards were languishing in a storeroom unused and unloved. And those teachers were for the most part some way from retirement! My friend is the same age as me, a little younger than you. One wonders who the computer generation really are!

Congratulations on the excellent graphics Dr. Dominum and the way they indicate the timing of the strokes. I know it is an unreasonable request, but if you should ever get the time, another graphic, viewed from the rear, that shows the vertical element would make the information complete.

I know the cane and the paddle are not the same but all things being equal would you suggest this second most popular method for paddling a better idea than the first? The grasping the ankle is the third most poular position. The most popular position is to ask the miscreant to place elbows on the desk with the forearms fully extended and the palms flat on the desk and looking straight ahead at a fixed position. prof n is a fan of the brace position (minimum amount of movement) and I told him I would do it that way before he went on vacation. I'm not sure if that's the position that assures the least moment. Do you think I should reconsider? The so-called sit spot is the target with both sides equally impacted with a complete avoidance of the tailbone the only must. The teachers have been doing it the American Way most often over the desk for years and their experience maybe should not be gainsaid. Nonetheless, it would be good to get an Aussie point of view.

Considering the title of this thread it would be great if you could do a graphic but I have no idea how time consuming that may be or how beneficial in the scheme of things?

You have certainly clarified most of the points I was unsure of and your animated gifs give an excellent impression of the path both of the cane and the hand holding it, and hence the arm driving it. I admire the 'aiming' taps, the way the cane tip wraps and how the cane deforms to the shape of the unfortunate lad's buttocks!

The taps aren't so much for aiming - I really don't need to aim like that anymore, in most cases, but with six of the best especially, they help to build the boy's anticipation of what is about to happen. Obviously a caning is intended to punish through physical pain, but there is a psychological element to it as well. You want him thinking about what he did and what is had lead to.

Just a query if I may. I think from the diagrams that, if it was possible to represent the caner, at the end of the stroke he would be standing more or less facing the side of the chair and its occupant with his right side aligned to or a little below (in your diagram) the final line of the cane as extended to the right. Is that correct please?

Yes. Besides the physical aspect of wanting the cane to land clean across the target area, you also want to be able to see both that target area, and the boys head when doing it. You need to be gauging his reaction, also if he's going to move (which can lead to potential danger) you'll see it first in the head and upper body.

Shortly after he arrived the school received a large financial allocation to purchase whiteboards, which it duly did. None of the teachers would have anything to do with them but my friend thought they had huge possibilities. He went as far as producing material for individual teachers utilising the whiteboards. Sadly there were no takers, and when he left the job a year ago the whiteboards were languishing in a storeroom unused and unloved. And those teachers were for the most part some way from retirement! My friend is the same age as me, a little younger than you. One wonders who the computer generation really are!

We're having some resistance to the idea as well, which is one reason why I'm having to try and become expert in them. If the old dog can learn new tricks, there's less excuse for anybody else.

I know the cane and the paddle are not the same but all things being equal would you suggest this second most popular method for paddling a better idea than the first? The grasping the ankle is the third most poular position. The most popular position is to ask the miscreant to place elbows on the desk with the forearms fully extended and the palms flat on the desk and looking straight ahead at a fixed position. prof n is a fan of the brace position (minimum amount of movement) and I told him I would do it that way before he went on vacation. I'm not sure if that's the position that assures the least moment. Do you think I should reconsider? The so-called sit spot is the target with both sides equally impacted with a complete avoidance of the tailbone the only must. The teachers have been doing it the American Way most often over the desk for years and their experience maybe should not be gainsaid. Nonetheless, it would be good to get an Aussie point of view.

The position I have shown in my diagrams is my preferred position for administering the cane, and the one I use far more often than any other. I don't think it is significantly different from the 'bend over a desk' position and most teachers in the school who cane use that position or bending over a chair. I am lucky enough that I have an armchair available for use in my office, so I tend to use that. My desk is normally too covered with paper.

The 'brace' position only seems problematic to me because I worry about what would happen if a boy collapsed - I'm worried he'd fall straight into the wall. Is it likely to happen? I doubt it - but when you've handed out as many canings as I have, you're aware that even something that happens 1 in 1000 times is something you need to consider.

The 'grab your ankles' position is not one I've seen here - our closest equivalent is touching your toes. I do use that occasionally, but I dislike it. I think it's unnecessarily uncomfortable, and again, I also worry about the potential risk of collapse, or in this case, toppling over through inadequate co-ordination.

Thank you for expanding on your excellent diagrams Doctor Dominum. I had had some discussion with prof.n earlier regarding the position of the caner as one of his descriptions had puzzled me. The probability is that I was misunderstanding his explanation, but we didn't seem to be able to pin down the point at issue. Happily you have confirmed that my understanding of the practical procedure is correct.

You say with regard to the whiteboards:

We're having some resistance to the idea as well, which is one reason why I'm having to try and become expert in them. If the old dog can learn new tricks, there's less excuse for anybody else.

It is my impression based on many examples that 'old dogs' are often very much better at learning new tricks than 'middle aged dogs'. As one enters those years commonly classified as old one becomes acutely concious of how much more there is to learn and how little time there is left to learn it. The willingness to undertake the necessary mental effort increases accordingly!

Some fascinating posts while I've been away.

I was particularly interested by the images posted by Doctor Dominum on 25th August. The second image, "six of the best", appears to show a cane backswing of a little over 180 degrees. But is this physically possible?

I tried to see if I could do this. I held a stick in my hand and placed myself, feet apart, facing the target, so that the impact would be straight ahead. I then pulled my arm back as far as I could. Even twisting my whole body (knees as well!) I couldn't angle the stick backwards to 180 degrees, let alone more.

Well, I'm not as flexible as I used to be! Though I don't think the deterioration is too great.

Or maybe I'm not doing it right?

My guess is that, in fact, a hard caning involves a backswing with a longer arc but with less curvature. If you're pretending that you have a book under your armpit, the radius of curvature will be the length of your forearm (plus the length of the cane up to the point of impact). If you keep your shoulder fixed but allow your whole arm to move, it will be the length of your whole arm instead of the length of your forearm. Greater distance from the pivot point means a flatter, less curved arc of movement.

And if you twist your body as well, the distance from pivot point to impact point will be even greater (though in that case the motion will be more complicated because the arm movement will start after the body movement).

I'd be interested to hear Doctor Dominum's views on this.

I was particularly interested by the images posted by Doctor Dominum on 25th August. The second image, "six of the best", appears to show a cane backswing of a little over 180 degrees. But is this physically possible?

Well, yes, it is.

I tried to see if I could do this. I held a stick in my hand and placed myself, feet apart, facing the target, so that the impact would be straight ahead. I then pulled my arm back as far as I could. Even twisting my whole body (knees as well!) I couldn't angle the stick backwards to 180 degrees, let alone more.

Well, I'm not as flexible as I used to be! Though I don't think the deterioration is too great.

Or maybe I'm not doing it right?

All you can see in the picture is the arc of the cane - you can't see what I'm doing with my arm and body. My body only describes an arc of 90 degrees or so, but my arm travels back even further. It's not quite ninety degrees in the horizontal, but I can't show the vertical motion as well in that diagram. Overall, I think the arc is a reasonable representation.

One of my senior boys does three d modelling and animation. I might ask him how hard it is to create something that will show what happens in all dimensions.

My guess is that, in fact, a hard caning involves a backswing with a longer arc but with less curvature. If you're pretending that you have a book under your armpit, the radius of curvature will be the length of your forearm (plus the length of the cane up to the point of impact). If you keep your shoulder fixed but allow your whole arm to move, it will be the length of your whole arm instead of the length of your forearm. Greater distance from the pivot point means a flatter, less curved arc of movement.

I think you are on the right track, but it's hard to look at this in words. I'll see what I can do about a better model.

Paddling opponentsclaim districts policies is discriminatory. Clearly the ant-CP zealots are stealing a page from Paula Flowe's playbook. Concessions were made for their benefit not to their detriment. Everman doesn't have CP so I'm becoming hypothetical Principal of Winona with more modifications to follow. I posted this under the School Corporal Punishment I thread and I thought I was logged in so I'll post it here in case it doesn't get through later.

http://wpln.org/?p=10903

I'm about finished with the hypothetical Winona High School Principal job which by now has grown old. Instead of posting inder many threads I won't set up a School CP Part II thread that will focus on the how and not the whys or matrices.

Alteration on the alcohol and drug policy is the first priority. I wasn't comfortable with that and I'm glad Dr Dominum weighed in on that matter. I'm leaning toward treating alcohol more like nicotine. I happen to believe in an 18 year old drinking age and I don't believe you have to show an ID proving you're 21 to buy cigarettes in many states. At 18 you can vote and serve in the military.

Changing topics to Winona MO you can understand the problems of the rural poor would to give every student a chance to study beyond the secondary level. The ones that may rise to the top are the ones that join the army (in spite of danger) and be all that they can be. Parental involvement would be my first priority and that's not a small task considering traditions.

In order to have enough activities that can attract student involvement is a big challenge. You're really hampered by the size of the school. It's too small to engage kids in things like debating teams, music, sports, etc. that are so important at building self esteem.

Joining the two micro schools from Shannon County like Eminence and Winona would be a good idea. IMHO too many go directly into the workforce. Those who go to college or serve their country here or abroad in the military are too few indeed. There is a bigger world than Shannon County and I hope with the favorable student/teacher ratio and the percentage of teachers with Masters Degrees the teachers will find a way to meet that challenge. No more about Winona now. I promise.

http://www.winonamo.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=50

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Shannon_County,_Missouri

http://dese.mo.gov/directory/101105.html

Of late few have challenged or questioned Dr Dominum (Willy who feigns less familiarity with this esteem Forum an obvious exception) or TWP authenticity. So few schools in the world apply corporal punishment (paddling more and more so as well as caning) it is not surprising that we have first hand recent first hand accounts. We are fortunate to have some.

Renee is a bonus is that she posts here and publicizes our esteem Forum for weal or for woe. Rene gave us an account last week of Mirandas encounter with the paddle.

Some have dismissed my recommendation of the teacher chat board as worthless fantasy but there are no absolutes but within the range of being doubtful to reasonable surmises (why that name Veronica Scalzo (2007) with email address) that bodes well for its authenticity I'm becoming a believer in the chatboard especially after Alvin, TX.

A new teacher preferred strictly enforced paddling matrices to the alternative monitoring detentions understandably so to avoid monitoring after school the worse kids and keeping her after school as well. She was quick to add it worked.

The younger teachers send the students between the ages of 14 to 18 to the presumably older administrators to be paddled. Remember Renee had both mother and daughter in school. Wouldn't it be something had she paddled both!!! They could share notes. I'm sure it has occurred somewhere. The teachers from AK share a whole range of CP and differ from the usual forums that draw from larger areas. Here is a sample.

Angela VP Question

I was wondering if anyone has an effective discipline
matrix to address excessive tardies?
We have been have an increasing problem with students late
to multiple classes, especially first period, and not
taking the bells seriously (wandering in the door after
the bell stops, etc.)
We have decided to enforce the official on-time
requirement/policy more rigorously and are interested in
hearing from anyone that has had good results. This is
grades 9-12. Thanks.

Veronica Scalzo (email)

Our current plan is to institute a school wide tardy discipline matrix:

1st tardy per semester: free (no penalty)
2nd tardy: choice of paddling (2 swats) or three hours
detention)
3rd tardy: choice of paddling (3 swats) or four hours detention
4th tardy: referral to office for in school suspension
I would welcome any thoughts. Thanks!

Pro CP Teacher

It seems to me that those who oppose corporal punishment often
propose alternatives that are far more severe and not warranted for
the offense. To say that a tardy student should lose a job, or a
potential athletic scholarship that may have involved years of work,
reflects poor judgment and a lack of balance. If paddling works and it does, I don't have a problem with it.

Teacher in No Paddle School Policy

Our (non-paddling) tardy policy proved very effective when
it was introduced a couple of years ago.
1st tardy - warning written in to the student's homework
journal which has to be signed at home.
2nd tardy in a week or 3rd in a month means that they get a
1 hour detention after school to make up the time they have
wasted.

The monthly total is a "rolling" total so after a month, the
first tardy drops out of the reckoning.
After a few kids ended up in detention the message got
through that the rule was absolute and not at the discretion
of the teacher so there was no arguing. Tardies are now
pretty rare. The administration and letter home are
generated by the system and we share the supervision of
detention so only have to do one each year.

The consequence is understood by the students as it follows naturally from
having lost time, they make it up in theirs.
Our (non-paddling) tardy policy proved very effective when
it was introduced a couple of years ago.
1st tardy - warning written in to the student's homework
journal which has to be signed at home.
2nd tardy in a week or 3rd in a month means that they get a
1 hour detention after school to make up the time they have
wasted.

The monthly total is a "rolling" total so after a month, the
first tardy drops out of the reckoning.
After a few kids ended up in detention the message got
through that the rule was absolute and not at the discretion
of the teacher so there was no arguing. Tardies are now
pretty rare.

The administration and letter home are
generated by the system and we share the supervision of
detention so only have to do one each year. The consequence
is understood by the students as it follows naturally from
having lost time, they make it up in theirs.

Pro CP Recent Graduate

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with this
approach, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with
letting students opt for a paddling instead of detention,
especially if there is some after school activity they would
otherwise miss.
Regardless of which students may choose, looking back a couple
of years since high school, I can say that being paddled
definitely made more of an impression on me than sitting in
detention or in school suspension would ever have. I think it
restored in me some "respect" for authority that other
punishments would not have. It did also change my behavior
and attitude, since in the back of mind I always knew that if
I got in trouble in the future, given my involvement in
extracurricular activities, I would wind up having to take
swats again.


Anti CP Recent Graduate

I was paddled in 11th grade for skipping (5 licks) and my butt
was bruised for a week and it was hard to sit. This was only
five years ago, and I know they still paddle at the school
because my brother goes there. Paddling is barbaric and
should be banned.


Doubtful/Cautious Teacher

Although I have my doubts about using corporal punishment in younger
students, it definitely does work in grades 9-12. It is better
however, to have female students paddled by a female VP or coach.

The paddle should also not be too thick (not more than 1/4th inch), but
should be wide so it will distribute the swats over a large area and
minimize the chance for bruising.

Active student

At our school they don't even have the VP or anyone meet with you. If
your name comes on the computer in the office as having a second tardy,
you get a form saying whether you want Saturday detention or swats. If
you take swats like most people and you're female, youre supposed to go
to the volleyball coachs office during lunch on Friday for a
paddling. When it's your turn you bend over with palms on the wall and
butt out and she hits as hard as she can. It hurts like a burning iron
but is better than Saturday detention obviously.

Hi American Way,

Sorry everyone for my tardyness in replying after my return from Greece and the States. Caused by the fact a slip on a wet marble pavement in Thessoloniki, which bruised toes etc badly , and compounded on return by a passenger accidentally pressing her crutch into my worst toe. Now recovering with antibiotics etc, thus quite sorry for myself ( even if no one else is!).

However the time in Texas and the South gave me a huge opportunity to re acquaint with that educational system , meet a lot of practitioners and see some great schools /colleges., as well as remaking friendships from the past. Also lots of country rock, margaritas, Jack ,and huge swimming pools....not forgetting work (seriously?) I actually finished Leonard Sax !That's a quite different post , but still very interesting.........

I reflected on what I had seen . I could have journalised some issues . I could have just reported the highlight conversations, , but with the exception of weighing paddles in a chemistry lab (pleading the interest of public accuracy and freedom of information), exclusively for this forum ,(!), I decided to cut to the chase and raise some issues which I now either see in a different light , or which I think we may have inadequately debated.

First some ground rules. I am not identifying the schools/colleges I visited because that would be unfair , but they were spread across three 'red ' States .So the conclusions and comments are mine alone. Finally I will try to keep to the five line paragraph suggestion, although for an academic writer like me this isn't easy............

OK so tonight's first missive MATRICES or how not to teach or discipline fairly in one simple lesson..

I have always had my worries about matrices and indeed what I would call the big red book approach to teaching. The very fact something is equal doesn't make it fair, useful or effective.

Having now seen and talked to staff and some students ( for and against paddling equally) , in my mind I must now reject the rigid matrix or hierarchy of punishments. Lets go back to basics. Generally the teachers who are happiest with a matrix are relatively new class teachers.

The issues of routine discipline are taken entirely out of their hands and placed in the hand of an administrator- Why not . a computer.?One clever teacher did try this, and sold a random programme which having allocated various offences ' grades' of seriousness (demerits) then totalled them up and issued a random punishment 'pinkie' to the student based on luck..paddling, detention etc...... It was actually a Christmas joke, ( replace your VP for $20) but some educators took it , well seriously..........????????? and there is a literature on it from the Cranky Christian right.......

But the point is well made. The matrix loses sight of the very reason we punish students ...hopefully to help them learn and choose not to break the red lines too often.....The matrix learning process is unacceptable by any adequate pedagogic standard. In the words of Gilbert and Sullivan is it sufficient to ' let the punishment fit the crime ...the punishment fit the crime?

Why unacceptable? Because it fails to either investigate however superficially the cause of the issue, nor reflect an appropriate punishment for the student. Schools are large ...yes, but schools are made up of individuals , individuals matter, every student matters.........Try applying a matrix approach to criminal law.....just think about it.

Now in a school which applies a full matrix, there is certainty...certainty of unfairness. Look for every 'Miss Nancy' with her mascara problem, there is a Miss Jane who gets the little kids to school because Mom is working, ill, alcoholic...........Remember these are fully comprehensive school entries , all human life is there.

I realised very quickly that these schools are not like the elite schools whether in Australia, US or England, where you may be justified about making certain basic assumptions about background, morals and behaviour.....though Doctor Dominum may tell us even this is changing, and in England we have the 'footballers wives' culture to contend with...........

A punishment process that runs report to X on Friday lunch , get told you've got 999 demerits...assume the position and a few pops.......or seven hours staring at the wall on Saturday ...give us a break ...treat motorists like that for parking fines, and you would have a riot.

In my view that is of no earthly use as a punishment system for a student who has problems. I'm not saying you don't punish , punishment is integral to learning I'm far from a woolly liberal, but the essence of teaching , and yes teaching includes character building, ( if not what are we in business for ?), and the errant student has the right in my mind to deserve time , to understand why something has happened , and to be helped to not repeat the mistake. Whack and out is exactly the problem of Bacon's school and many others, whose broken customers we find spread all over the fetish sites.

Some kids will be harmed by paddling...many will learn, we must be careful ...do no harm. If that means time and discretion , so be it , isn't that the essence of judgement? Teachers need good verbal skills yes, but far more important is the skill of listening......I ignored that for some time in my early career....learning it is a hard lesson.

Many schools do just this in reality , although they pay lip service to the 'matrix' Read Renee's last posting in full on TWP- I think the reference has already been posted on the site. She clearly is a teacher who listens. understands and only then , acts, and with compassion when needed. Her students are lucky! She's not just a robot!

Many Principals and VP's told me they 'duck and dive' the matrix .the student comes first. This becomes almost impossible however, when punishment is administered by members of staff chosen simply to hit as hard as they can .oh and as one Principal said to me.....'you know all kids don't need knocking into next week by the school's largest coach, some are sufficiently punished by the humiliation , and you cant hit them all alike....after all some just can't take it......some need a tough approach, some need understanding.....that's the art....' Teaching is a skill , not just a strong right arm....though sometimes the two may go together.

Next time the' who punishes and the choice debate.'........I won't conclude until I've finished what I think will be three or four posts dealing with 'separate issues'

Finally , a bit of light relief. Walking round one High school I was the only 'male' visitor. I was shown the football field, gyms etc by the Head Football coach . He was the usual macho stereotype ( thank goodness they are not all nowadays= AW please note my grudging admission on this !)).

I mentioned I used to play dodge ball years ago, and clearly he didn't believe me . So as we walked the length of the gym ( which was empty) he picked up a ball and volleyed one of the fixed manoeuvre shots at me .For the first time ever I responded by the book punched and re volleyed, using his momentum on the ball, and catching him off guard .. he capitulated to gravity......he smiled , but his response was not family forum material, except that he indicated I clearly DID know how to play.......one nil ( thirty odd years late) for those of us who used to prefer warm libraries to the cold wet playing fields of whatever Country!!!!!.

prof n. Welcome back. Sorry to hear that your stay away didn't go exactly your way.

Teachers should report as on a score card (matrix); students should know what the predictable consequences will be. Teachers may get it right but the other students aren't privy nor should be of the extenuating circumstances.

Renee showed Miranda that she was out of control compared to the others so that's why she was facing an unpleasant paddling and not her classmates. Yes there is a computer to store the facts because as we all know computers don't make mistakes but they come in handy when the parents storm in with their kids' story. What exceptions Renee would make would get around in a nanosecond and should be the rare exception.

One size may not fit all but that's how the cookie crumbles in the real world. Most elemenatry schools don't have matrices and that makes sense but high school students shouldn't be making excuses or giving explanations but accepting the consequences. If in their district it says bend over so be it.

As far as choices it should be noted that since the seventies with woman equality the number of girls paddled became closer and closer in number according to an experienced teacher chat board poster from AK albeit from an anecdotal perspective. The differences in gender are so different from school to school in OCR data but a careful perusal of the handbooks in respective schools that schools that stress dress code and punctuality the gender differential is less pronounced often by a factor of two. That is four to one compared to two to one (Boys to Girls). Boys I'm sure are paddled for being disrespectful and defiant more than girls. But I suppose they are catching up but probably not so with Southern girls.

prof n. BTW before they take it down. Were you hit harder than Google (School Corporal Punishment Raquel) you tube video. Do you think three is too easy or about five is enough? How did that compare with your experience?

Hi American way ,

Thanks for your good wishes!

I've thought very carefully about your response , hence the delay, and here is my considered answer. :-

Over the last few weeks If I've been convinced of anything it is that in order for corporal punishment to work it is essential that the centre of the equation is the student not the school, not the rules, not the parents or staff, it has to be each kid.......and the only useful thing Ed you know who has ever said , or had written for him, in his life ' every child matters' is.......TRUE.

So we know for some kids paddling will help , indeed is the quickest most effective, and , yes, in the long run, kindest treatment . For others it represents a danger, a 'fear factor' , a part of the educational process that makes no sense to them , and which thy cannot rationalise , indeed a violent act of abasement which they internalise in a negative way..........So it suits some but not all. Used correctly it is fine : used wrongly it does abuse the victim , so we try to do as much good with as little damage as possible.

In this sense to use a matrix as a guide is no problem but one has to recognise that treating each case fairly does not mean blindly following rules. Making sure you are acting in the interest of the student, especially in a system where psychological testing can only be done , even on a limited basis using one to one professional contact (not teaching staff) means being able to talk to and understand students . In my view no system can be used by rote without creating the most enormous problems, as I tried to indicate in my last posting at the moment in economic recession, even more so.

I have made the point before that my American friend has always indicated that she was unwilling to simply apply punishments derived and awarded by other teachers. Many times they hardly talked to the students, and certainly didn't give them space, confidence or encouragement to open up and be truthful That s why she screwed up so many 'pinkies' and threw them where they belonged! In the case of Renee which we both quoted remember she may have made her mind up in an instant but she knew the girl and family outside of her current post , just as my friend decided I was suitable and would learn from a caning , when the school policy said no way .again because she knew me far better than the average student .

It takes time and skill to get a student to trust you let alone open up on what may be a difficult and personal issue. But that information may utterly transform your view of what is going on, and your view of what sanctions are appropriate and useful, if any. Good Principals and vice Principals are doing that all day long ( rather than getting made up for the 'set' with reality TV)! Can you see anyone opening up to Halter?. It doesn't either mean that teachers who do this are 'soft' indeed that's far from the case, but like a good D.A. they want the right perps, not just any old Joe! Mistakes discredit the system. Getting it right takes time and effort.

Many younger teachers seem to put their faith in the Matrix, it gives a whole new dimension to the film series........or have you seen the European Sci -fi Lexx? The 'dark side' legal system is just such a matrix with no defence bar throwing yourself on the mercy of the court ( useless of course!)for the court is a computer.........the same one that picked you out as 'guilty' in the first place!

As one VP said to me ' If you get a pinkie have the guts to bang on my door. At worst you'll get the same punishment quicker, but at least you'll find someone to listen to you ,look at your record and profile, and maybe apply some common sense and humanity....., so you never know things might work out....and at the very least I'll know who you are, which isn't a bad thing.!'


Now , as to the video. As usual difficult to assess. Because its not real swats. Firstly she isn't braced, so if any swats were really hard the hands would fly back to protect. That's the reason , of course for the hands body 90 degree angle at below chest level. That position has been tested that you cannot maintain it with your hands back , but you will instinctively recover with hands back on the wall and not fall forward, as Dr. Dominum was afraid. The testing was done over three years in the late 50's by , I believe, US special forces as a stress position which could not lead to complete collapse in under two hours , and we are only talking of one or two minutes!

As to the force of the swats , probably less than those I got, but that's memory for you , I did ask my friend to look , but she has exactly the same response as Dr. D , she cannot risk this type of soft porn, I'm afraid. I do remember responding to the swats with choice language, but not grinning like the model! Do remember , however, that after ten whilst my butt was bright red I assure you , I suffered minimal bruising, which I understand is as it should be .Hope that helps, fear it doesn't.


As to the three or five I'll address that in the next post......




She has however given me a full copy of her internal circular to staff in her first school as Principal which I will post for your part II postings , no school name , but it may surprise you , though I guess not Renee.

I'll post on the other topics later...........

.

American Way ,

As promised second post.

Again these are observations from my recent trip.

Firstly , neither staff nor the few students I saw. in paddling schools seem terribly hung up on the who does the paddling, although the administrators said a substantial minority of boys objected to the thought that they would HAVE to be paddled by males. The most important issue seemed to be trust and predictability But this IS a big issue in the community , Paula and her merry band no doubt!One school asserted to require boys to be paddled by men broke equal opportunity legislation, according to their lawyers.........kids hated the 'coaches according to some administrators, one female administrator said she would paddle anyone herself rather than leave it to PE staff. Want a job doing right.......do it yourself.

A great deal of respect for TWP, but disagreement on the age issue. Many say they find it easier to paddle 17 year olds than 14 year olds. The general position seems to be most administrators ( Male ) would prefer not to paddle females on grounds of personal choice, but most females have no problem with paddling males, provided the student consents.

The 'best' practice schools ensured that no one could be paddled without the staff member doing the paddling having reviewed the file , talked to the student and obtained consent. In this case the administrator could amend or delete the 'pinkie' if they wished at their sole discretion. The 'worst' example just allocated duty staff to administer the punishment on the pinkies....in this case the students needed to have the nerve to appeal to the Principal . Appeals were surprisingly successful, indicating something perhaps about the remaining cases, who didn't appeal......

Number of swats Three is now 'normal' sometimes up to five. Schools believed five was 'not unreasonable'. One Principal commented that in her school days in her home State up to 12 was on the statute book, she personally had taken 8 for repeat smoking....she never touched tobacco again..( she had read my piece in TWP)!.

Finally more parents refuse for girls to be paddled than boys, which is the explanation given for the national disparity .Quite a number of refusnik parents have daughters who would chose the paddle if they were allowed to. In these Schools Saturday school tends to be tradition do nothing. The administrators despair , but the school boards approve. Most administrators said if it were their kids they would advise 'grit your teeth and take the swats'.

Schools tend not to publicise the use of the paddle except to parents. Keep off the radar is the watchword, and make sure you work by the book, and have sense not to follow the old tradition of swat first ask questions later.....that's how you get to court, and worse on TV!!

Just observations at this stage , no comments , and not scientific enough for a study ( schools were self selecting).

My sister and I visit an aunt every May in the South. We find it so refreshing the respect shown by teenagers. I'm sure they get into trouble and some of that Southern hospitality is a veneer but courtesy lubricates the wheels. There are more churches than convenience stores.

I read the ORC data and they are 10 to 1 paddlings over suspensions. 15% of the boys are paddled and 3% of the girls but as many boys are suspended than girls. Ratios narrow as the kids grow older and a decrease in paddling and increase in suspending (impossible for elementary) and that is true statistically almost everywhere. I agree it may be by parental choice more than their choice that girls have opted out. A senior prom came into the restaurant and some of the kids were smashed but that is to be expected. My aunt said they don't act like that in school down here. I wonder why?

When I brought up the subject of paddling she said the smaller children are spanked in the private school. Spanking meaning over the knee with an open hand and thats true in the home and home like schools. Some handbooks even say the parents come to the office.

Booneville came as a shock to the 300,000,000 million Americans. The south does fly low under the radar screen. Hollywood, NYC and DC may be where everything is suppose to be happening but our country is bigger and more diverse than most people can imagine. Let's just call it the American Way.

Absolutely agree American Way. Incidentally, the Dixie Chicks think there are more church spires than Jeans in Lubbock....I don't know.....

What I was told in one discussion was by one VP that , I wouldn't talk to you this way if I hadn't read your piece of the TWP blog,and know you are trusted by Jxxxxx. We only talk to friends here ......we learned that from history.....so I hope you turn out right!

Would this exist elsewhere? There is something about the philosophy of our Founders embedded in our egalitarian way that equally holds teachers and students accountable by the policies and procedures followed in making the rules and assuring their fairness. They may seem too young for discipline matrices and appeal forms but it is preparing them for the challenge of becoming apart without coming apart as a country enriched by our growing numbers and diversity.

Corporal punishment is seen as Southern justice and sadly condemned by our own due to the lack of understanding and tolerance in other parts of our grand land. The oneness of our country is built upon our Founders dream of equality, liberty and justice for all (the American Way). If my patriotism is a difficult pill to swallow or a hard suppository so be it.

STUDENT APPEAL FORM
STUDENT NAME: _________________________________________
OFFENSE: _______________________________________________
DATE: ___________________________________________________
ACTION TAKEN: __________________________________________
APPEAL REQUESTED BY: __________________________________
Appeal Request generated to:
Ï dispute the facts
Ï question consistency
Ï question the severity of consequences
Ï plead mitigating circumstances
DATE HELD: _____________________________________________
EDUATORS IN ATTENDANCE: _____________________________
______________________________
______________________________
______________________________
Ï UPHELD
Ï OVERTUNED
Ï BEHAVIOR TRACK _____________________________
SBBC Policy 5006 Code of Student Conduct

Dr Dominum: Ignore the caption propaganda and the corpulence are there parallels between a modern schoolday caning shown in this cartoon? With the Kartika caning (apart from politics and religion) the method of the caning has become center stage (more ways then one). I was wondering of what you make of the severity of the caning (rotan)? The father is insisting that the Syriah way(thinner cane and the Koran under the arm approach be used) as oppossed to the Taliban way of whipping with just six strokes inflicted? Dr. Dominum you wrote:

My guess is that, in fact, a hard caning involves a backswing with a longer arc but with less curvature. If you're pretending that you have a book under your armpit, the radius of curvature will be the length of your forearm (plus the length of the cane up to the point of impact). If you keep your shoulder fixed but allow your whole arm to move, it will be the length of your whole arm instead of the length of your forearm. Greater distance from the pivot point means a flatter, less curved arc of movement.