Here we have intrepid Bacons investigator Steve in 1975.





Note the cool sunglasses & full length leather coat and their intriguing marriage with the flares and platform shoes.


Lock up your daughters was the order of the day then()


Anyone see a revival in the next couple of years for all this?


Thought not!


Steve

Staying off topic.

Gender Bender Dress Codes

Hi American Way,

Just read your article. I don't want to sound like an illiberal neo con, but really isn't that the best argument for school uniform ?

Except when I was that age.....well we all become hypocrites sometime !

Economists Scott Imberman and Elisabetta Gentile of the University of Houston have a new paper on the affect of school uniforms on student behavior, attendance and achievement:

Concerns about safety in urban schools has led many school districts to require uniforms for their students. However, we know very little about what impact school uniforms have had on the educational environment. In this paper we use a unique dataset to assess how uniform adoption affects student achievement and behavior in a large urban school district in the southwest. Since each school in the district could decide independently about whether or not to adopt uniforms, we are able to use variation across schools and over time to identify the effects of uniforms. Using student and school fixed-effects along with school-specific linear time trends to address selection of students and schools into uniform adoption, we find that uniforms had little impact on student outcomes in elementary grades but provided modest improvements in language scores and attendance rates in middle and high school grades. These effects appear to be concentrated in female students.


Do School Uniforms Improve Student Behavior, Attendance, and Achievement?

prof.n

I don't want to sound like an illiberal neo con, but really isn't that the best argument for school uniform ?

Why not just allow people to be themselves? It would be quite beneficial for others, who choose to conform to stereotypes, to learn to accept people for what they are rather than their preconceived ideas of what they should be.

Hi Jenny. You say:

Why not just allow people to be themselves? It would be quite beneficial for others, who choose to conform to stereotypes, to learn to accept people for what they are rather than their preconceived ideas of what they should be.

Well, I may be an unreconstructed old fashioned Thatcherite Conservative, unlike Prof.n, who is reluctant to risk being seen as even an illiberal neo con, but even I can see that American Way's chart above makes Prof.n's point most eloquently and despite the political differences I find myself 100% in agreement with him!

School uniforms are the answer. All schools should have them and rigidly enforce them! And no, I don't know anything about how to select graph scales for the best effect, and I naturally didn't bother reading the accompanying notes.

Another_Lurker

I have to say I'm very surprised by that graph. I would have expected things to go the other way. Perhaps it's upside down.

I don't like the idea of school uniforms. The rest of Europe seems to manage very well without them. School uniforms are often overly elaborate and expensive. There was also the underhand agreements between certain schools and a favoured local business whereby parents were forced to buy the uniform, or certain items thereof, from that one supplier at highly inflated prices. The school, of course, got a rake-off from the excessive profits. School uniform also impinges on parents' rights to bring their children up and dress then as they see fit and within their means. On top of that, school uniforms often conflict with the dress requirements of certain religions. Another objection I have is that, rather than being uniform, they tend to enforce gender/sex stereotypes. Having said that, my husband quite likes seeing me in my school uniform.


School uniforms are the answer. All schools should have them and rigidly enforce them!

You may well be right. I wonder, though, if schools would enforce them equally or if girls would be allowed a bit more leeway in how they chose to dress. In adult life, I notice dress codes for men tend to be a lot more rigid than those for women.

And no, I don't know anything about how to select graph scales for the best effect, and I naturally didn't bother reading the accompanying notes.

Of course not. We're IT people, we only "read the fine manual" as a last resort when everything else has failed.

Hi Jenny. You say:

I have to say I'm very surprised by that graph. I would have expected things to go the other way. Perhaps it's upside down.

No, I don't think that it's upside down, but the change is in fact fairly small (those graph scales) and according to the notes largely confined to girls, whereas I'd have expected a much bigger effect. I wonder if this is because the US is in many respects similar to europe - see next paragraph!

You also say:

I don't like the idea of school uniforms. The rest of Europe seems to manage very well without them.

They work very well here in the UK though, even if you don't like them. In general good schools have them, sink schools don't. The first thing Heads employed to turn round failing schools tend to go for is a uniform. The failing school usually doesn't have one, or if it does it hasn't been enforced.

It isn't a good idea to let children wear what they like. They'll always go too far. Additionally some of them will persecute other children who don't have the latest trendy clothes, or indeed who wear something totally outlandish. A uniform gives a school an esprit de corps, a sense of unity. It also enables identification of the little blighters when they terrorise shops or streets!

As for europe managing without school uniforms. Are you sure that's general? It matters not though, because in the UK we aren't, never have been and never will be, europeans. The only reason we have any truck with europe apart from trade and helping sort them out when they start fighting each other is that our traitorous politicians want to be able to take lucrative jobs over there when they get kicked out of power here.

Of the cost of uniforms you say:

School uniforms are often overly elaborate and expensive. There was also the underhand agreements between certain schools and a favoured local business whereby parents were forced to buy the uniform, or certain items thereof, from that one supplier at highly inflated prices. The school, of course, got a rake-off from the excessive profits.

'One supplier - school rake-off' agreements are wrong, and parents should combine to stamp them out. I think they mostly already have. There is no reason why a school can't state styles and colours and leave parents to buy where they wish. Specific livery items like ties and badges could be sourced and sold by the school on a cost plus admin basis. My own secondary school back in the 1950s had a rigid uniform policy, but there were several competing suppliers for badged/liveried items such as blazers, ties, and caps. You didn't even have to have a blazer as one of the outer clothing options was a mid grey suit, which could be plain or herringbone.

You say:

school uniforms often conflict with the dress requirements of certain religions.

Our european friends that you quote, or at least the French, have the answer to that though, don't they? They simply ban any religious dress or symbols in schools. In the UK we look for a compromise without bending the rules totally out of shape. Given good will on both sides there always is one available.

And you also say:

Another objection I have is that, rather than being uniform, they tend to enforce gender/sex stereotypes.

I'm sorry Jenny, I know you don't really like it, but the fact remains that boys and girls are different - and so are men and women - thank goodness!

You say of school uniform rules:

I wonder, though, if schools would enforce them equally or if girls would be allowed a bit more leeway in how they chose to dress. In adult life, I notice dress codes for men tend to be a lot more rigid than those for women.

Possibly you are correct about the imbalance in dress codes in adult life. I can't say I've suffered greatly from it, but I have heard of what may be instances of it. In schools though I suspect the opposite is true. Some schools seem to totally ignore boys wandering about with shirts out of trousers and ties undone whilst being quite willing to take action on rising hemlines.

And finally on uniforms. I shouldn't, but I'm going to! You say:

Having said that, my husband quite likes seeing me in my school uniform.

Errm, I suppose there's absolutely no chance of a picture?

With regard to the tendency of computer people to ignore the documentation unless all else fails you say:

read the fine manual

Hmm, 'fine' is a new one on me. In an environment like this when discussing RTFM I generally use 'friendly' rather than what usually got bandied across the working area!

The most striking think about the graph is the yellow line. It proves, conclusively, that students at these schools were adept in the parapsychological skill called "precognition" -- the ability to predict the future. You will see that students were able to predict that school uniform would be imposed, and therefore attendance rates started improving three years in advance!

Seriously: is there any specific information about how the schools selected students? One alternative possibility is that ambitious parents (whose children were already more advanced) selected schools with uniform policies for social reasons, so the scores in those schools increased.

Alan: This was the abstract snd I gave the link not to advocate position one way or the other but it would be counter intuitive if requiring uniforms would make anything but none or little difference at all.

The most important difference to determine would be the rate of promptness judged by tardies between the genders caused by the decrease in time that the girls would need in choosing clothes that would appeal to boys as their interests in boys increase which would explain why my daughter increasing the likelihood of my annoyance as my growing prostate makes me a member of the frequent flyers club even as I type this in American Way time this morning.

"The Halo Effect" RATHER THAN ACTUALLY CHANGING STUDENT BEHAVIOR, UNIFORMS MIGHT CHANGE THE WAY TEACHERS AND OTHER ADULTS PERCEIVE THE STUDENTS WHO WEAR THEM.


HTTP://KENNYCHEAH.BLOGSPOT.COM/2009/11/WEARING-SCHOOL-UNIFORM-HAS-ITS.HTML

The link in my previous posting may no longer work.

SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 2009

Wearing School Uniform has its psychological effect on Students' Discipline

The "halo effect" of school uniforms


Is there a connection between student uniforms and improved school discipline? The issue has attracted tremendous interest and publicity across the country, with a growing number of schools and districts adopting uniform policies.

The results seem favorable--less violence, vandalism and fighting, and generally better discipline--but there really isn't a large body of research to confirm the connection between uniforms and other improvements in the school environment. In a recent issue of The Harvard Education Letter, researcher Marc Posner turns to the field of psychology to help explain the impact of uniforms.

School uniforms, Posner writes, might be creating a "halo effect": Rather than actually changing student behavior, uniforms might change the way teachers and other adults perceive the students who wear them. He cites a study by one researcher that seems to confirm this effect. When Dorothy Behling of Bowling Green University studied the connection between student clothing and teacher and student perceptions, she found that students and teachers alike believe that uniform-clad students behave better and do better academically than those who don't wear uniforms.

While this may be an illusion, Behling points out that these positive perceptions can help create a self-fulfilling prophecy: Teachers and administrators raise their discipline and grading standards to reflect their more positive image of students, who, in turn, behave better.

For students who choose not to wear uniforms, something more like the "little devil" effect might be at work. Posner points out that in California--where state law requires that students be allowed to "opt out" of wearing school uniforms--students who don't wear uniforms are reported for disciplinary infractions at very high rates. In one school, students who didn't wear uniforms were sent to the office at a rate 22 times higher than that for uniformed students. (Posner doesn't discuss any other characteristics of the students who opted out, which might explain these results.)

OK Jenny thanks . You wrote :-

Why not just allow people to be themselves? It would be quite beneficial for others, who choose to conform to stereotypes, to learn to accept people for what they are rather than their preconceived ideas of what they should be.

Sure you didn't recycle one of my old speeches from my idealistic NUS/NUSS days?

In my youth (yes I can hear the groans of sad , sad, sad,) I was ardently and implacably opposed to the idea of school uniform. If they were going to have one it could have been something 'cool' like Steve was wearing (!) heading this post......, yes , flares plus boots leather coat and shades , that might have been OK . But who could blame us from rebelling. Sky high priced uniforms designed ( and probably manufactured) 30 years previously. So British as to pass muster in the furthest outposts of Empire.....at least if you were to stray and be captured in Kabul in our uniform , not much chance anyone could mistake you as anything but a sprog from an Englishman ( well maybe Australian but no shorts!).

We campaigned against uniform incessantly. It not only suppressed individualism it was discriminatory ( price and limited expensive 'outlets') , although the school fees were a far greater 'discriminator' ; it was divisive ( school against school), it was conservative and politically regressive, A shell representing all that was wrong with elitist capitalist education....a short hand for hair length regulations, rugby, school rules, competitive class rankings, communal showers and classical curriculum.......we would rather throw the lot in a skip ready for the landfill , and all troop merrily to the Nirvana of Comprehensive land , under the nurture and guidance of a doubtless near angelic Principal who 'understood' us .....where we would all be treated as the sentient , intelligent human beings that we so obviously were.........and would democratically decide our future amongst our peers, no streaming, no setting,no compulsory games, no competition, no punishment- canes or detention- just community self criticism, in the shiny soviet socialist republic of Holland Park Comprehensive with Mistress Benn at the helm....?

Ohhhh!Oh dear. Yes in my day uniform was a source of running battles. I was very disappointed to find Jackie on the wrong side of this argument. coming from the US where only private schools seemed to have a uniform, I was most disappointed at her reaction. Her daughter was 'caught ' on a uniform inspection with wearing a skirt in a non regulation manner , and ditto a 'hat'. Merl , who had just obtained a weekday detention for these offences, then threw her hat under an oncoming bus, as a revolutionary protest, much like the Boston tea party.

Unfortunately that only earned her a further Saturday detention and a trip to the headmistress. On returning home, Jackie, instead of applauding the unbroken spirit of this daughter of the revolution, vigorously applied a sizzling Texas strapping to her rear......for disrespecting her school, sassing her teachers, and writing off a perfectly good school hat, plus getting two detentions in one day!. So my radical contentions on uniform would clearly get little succor from that quarter!

What over the years has made me change my mind? Well a number of issues.

The main issue I think is that a school should be inclusive not divisive.It should bond its students together, and give them something to be proud of. Now the problem of non uniform schools is that they add to the bullying culture. Those who are different, religiously , racially and gender wise , can be subject to attack, at least verbal , maybe worse. Secondly those with less money can be seen to be marked out. no money for cool brand trainers or designer jeans,a school uniform which MUST be backed with a mandatory grants policy in all state schools, should overcome that.

There are in my mind certain conditions. Firstly there must be multiple suppliers, allowing budget provision. There should be a swap shop for used goods, and the clothing should not be of a specified high grade cloth standard. our blazers were specified as 100% virgin wool, more than doubling the cost......An the uniform should be modern and smart. Most importantly it my must be strictly enforced. No half tied ties ( better none at all), rolled up skirts ( ditto0 , etc. the compromise is make it acceptable to all, but expect and enforce its wearing ,sending home defaulters.

A uniform is a harmless thing for students to push the envelope on. Even breaking the rules, the consequences are not draconian ( or shouldn't be) , but it will show the school is serious about boundaries, and that is no bad thing. If you do however decide to break the rules kids, just check the surrounding area first for renegade Texans.......

Finally it identifies the school to the outside world which both protects students against false accusations from the public, and identifies the students to the general public in school hours, hopefully reinforcing decent conduct in the vicinity of the school o and on public transport etc.

School should be a safe space, and to that extent a strong uniform code well but not harshly enforced, should help in social cohesion, pride and recognising each in each other.....not highlighting difference and division.

On this one I suppose I'm conservative....for good liberal reasons.

I must point out , before anyone else does that there is a non deliberate mistake in my last posting

I wrote

An the uniform should be modern and smart. Most importantly it my must be strictly enforced. No half tied ties ( better none at all), rolled up skirts ( ditto0 , etc.

I meant to write

And the uniform should be modern and smart. Most importantly it must be strictly enforced. no half tied ties ( better none at all), rolled up skirts ( ditto - trousers perhaps?), etc,


I post this for accuracy and also to save Another's Lurker's and possibly others blood pressures from peaking dangerously once more !!!!

Fashion change on topic.

prof n shared this internal document on the subject of the administration of CP from his lady principal from October 4th SCP I thread. Maybe paddle ready slacks for boys and girls similar in fabric and fit neither too slack nor too tight would be in order. I hope the paddle will be of the same weight and design. Upon inspection of the paddle if the size of that paddle differs according to the size of the buttocks as one poster of this estimable Forum mentioned it would add insult to injury and more so with girls. Jenny take note.

If a girl is wearing a tight skirt which prohibits the correct positioning, or one so slack that it will interfere with the punishment, she should be asked to change it , ( perhaps for gym kit. In this case the punishment MUST be conducted by a female staff member with a female witness.). If she cannot, she must be asked to return appropriately clothed the next day.
7.The administrator should remove their jackets before undertaking paddling, and in the case of female staff for safety high heels should also be removed.
8.The paddle shall be of approved weight and design. It shall be clearly shown in a non threatening way to the student, who my examine it.

Hi American Way ,

You picked up the point in one! For the record my friend required all paddlers in her school, who were authorized, to use one type of paddle It was to be :-

Dimensions 16inch, x 3inch x 1/2 inch ( including handle ) ; face is to be no greater than 12" x3" x1/2"

Material of hers ( I 'm informed) 'Black Arkansas Oak' Handle has cherry inlay. Specification stated one piece varnished oak or cherry . This was to ensure no splitting or splintering.The handle may have additional inlay,( eg a contrasting wood) but the entire paddle must be within the weight limit.

Weight (of hers according to high school; chemistry lab electronic scale 200g PRECISELY) The maximum weight including handle was to be no grater than 8 ozs

No sharp edges, all ends and edges to be roll edge finished, to avoid sharp edges and subsequent hematoma .No taping , rubber handles, or other ornamentation No slogans or transfers.

The only choice was WITH or WITHOUT 8 x 1" diameter beveled, roll edged, sanded and varnished holes, to be used beveled side round to avoid marking or blistering.Personally she had one of each.

She tells me the paddles were too small to be signed, and the board commented they were very expensive compared to the previous laissez faire system. She argued what price one adverse court judgment, or one badly bruised child on TV ?

Please remember this was a Senior High.c1976 they were made to woodwork order . She thought the idea of manufacturing them 'in situ' ( craft room) ghoulish!In any case they were unlikely to meet quality standards.

Another_Lurker


No, I don't think that it's upside down, but the change is in fact fairly small (those graph scales) and according to the notes largely confined to girls, whereas I'd have expected a much bigger effect.

Our expectations clearly differ. I was very surprised to see an effect in that direction at all. As the effect is largely confined to girls, perhaps uniform should only be compulsory for girls - it would clearly be beneficial for them so there would be no logical reason for anyone to claim discrimination. If it adversely affects a few, that doesn't really matter because it would still benefit most.

They [uniforms] work very well here in the UK though, even if you don't like them. In general good schools have them, sink schools don't.

That doesn't mean uniforms cause schools to be good or that lack of uniform causes them to be bad. There is no clear causal mechanism and the effects shown on that graph are largely confined to girls.

The first thing Heads employed to turn round failing schools tend to go for is a uniform. The failing school usually doesn't have one, or if it does it hasn't been enforced.

Perhaps the Head could do the job just as well, or better, without introducing a uniform. Have any tried?

It isn't a good idea to let children wear what they like. They'll always go too far.

I agree that would happen initially but I think the novelty would soon wear off. Does it happen in schools without uniforms.

Additionally some of them will persecute other children who don't have the latest trendy clothes, or indeed who wear something totally outlandish.

No different for persecuting the poorer children whose parents can't afford to kit them out with a new uniform every term. If the school considers a uniform necessary to enable it to provide an education, given that the LEA are supposed to make educational facilities available, free at point of use, for children of compulsory school age, the LEA should provide the uniform in order to discharge its obligation. It's ridiculous that some parents have to struggle to afford a "free" education for their children.

A uniform gives a school an esprit de corps, a sense of unity. It also enables identification of the little blighters when they terrorise shops or streets!

One of the benefits of a uniform, from the child's point of view, is that it provides anonymity. The uniform might identify the school but it tends to make it much harder to identify the individual.

As for europe managing without school uniforms. Are you sure that's general?

I believe so. I've spent quite a bit of time in several European countries and I don't recall ever seen anything resembling a school uniform. Perhaps a few private schools have them but they're certainly not common.

'One supplier - school rake-off' agreements are wrong, and parents should combine to stamp them out. I think they mostly already have.

I think the Government stepped in there to ban these arrangements but there seems to be a few loop holes still being exploited.

I'm sorry Jenny, I know you don't really like it, but the fact remains that boys and girls are different - and so are men and women - thank goodness!

Are they. I'm far too sweet and innocent to know about things like that.

Possibly you are correct about the imbalance in dress codes in adult life. I can't say I've suffered greatly from it, but I have heard of what may be instances of it.

Two or three years ago, I heard there was something like 20000 - 30000 sex discrimination cases lined up for the Employment Tribunals over stricter dress codes for men than for women at work. It was when there was a hot summer and an employer (I believe it was a Government department) allowed women to dress as they pleased but insisted men wore suits. I know the claimant won a case but I don't know what happened afterward, I think most of the others were settled out of court. Perhaps someone here has some better details of this.

In schools though I suspect the opposite is true. Some schools seem to totally ignore boys wandering about with shirts out of trousers and ties undone whilst being quite willing to take action on rising hemlines.

On reflection, I think it varied a lot in different schools so, in some cases you would be right and in others I would be.

In reply to my saying -

Having said that, my husband quite likes seeing me in my school uniform.

You asked: Errm, I suppose there's absolutely no chance of a picture?

Now would that be with or without the bottle green gym knickers? I'd happily oblige but, thinking of your health, I wouldn't want to be responsible for your untimely demise.

Hmm, 'fine' is a new one on me. In an environment like this when discussing RTFM I generally use 'friendly' rather than what usually got bandied across the working area!

Interesting, "friendly" is a new one on me but, in practice, I've never actually heard either of those words used in that phrase.

prof.n

An the uniform should be modern and smart. Most importantly it my must be strictly enforced. No half tied ties ( better none at all), rolled up skirts ( ditto0 , etc.

I was waiting for an invitation from a certain gentleman to model one of your, rather interesting, school uniforms.

I meant to write

And the uniform should be modern and smart. Most importantly it must be strictly enforced. no half tied ties ( better none at all), rolled up skirts ( ditto - trousers perhaps?), etc,

Yes, of course you did.

prof.n


OK Jenny thanks .

Sure you didn't recycle one of my old speeches from my idealistic NUS/NUSS days?

Well, I'm eco-friendly, I believe in recycling. You know what they say about great minds.



What over the years has made me change my mind? Well a number of issues.

.....Secondly those with less money can be seen to be marked out. no money for cool brand trainers or designer jeans,a school uniform which MUST be backed with a mandatory grants policy in all state schools, should overcome that.

Uniform, per se, doesn't alleviate the problem of poorer children standing out, on the contrary, it tends to accentuate the problem. Poorer parents just cannot afford to renew expensive uniforms as often as richer parents. I see, however, you have the solution, with which I concur, but I would go a bit further: let the LEA heavily subsidise the uniform or, better still, provide it free of charge.


Finally it identifies the school to the outside world which both protects students against false accusations from the public,

I disagree, it facilitates malicious allegations against pupils of a particular school.

and identifies the students to the general public in school hours, hopefully reinforcing decent conduct in the vicinity of the school o and on public transport etc.

It shows which school pupils attend, but it makes identifying individuals more difficult.

One of the most famous sociological investigations of the last century (I can't provide details, but I'm sure prof.n will be able to identify the one I'm talking about, and provide more accurate information) was a study of office practices.

The investigators wanted to see if a different office arrangement would improve productivity. So they carried out the rearrangement, and indeed productivity did improve.

Then they put things back to where they were, expecting that productivity would return to its original level. But it didn't. In fact, it improved again! The investigators concluded that the improvements in productivity didn't come from the particular workplace arrangements at all; instead it came from the interest shown in this particular group of workers, who therefore felt valued and became more motivated.

There are lots of aspects to social changes. On the question of school uniform, I've already expressed my scepticism about the graph posted above. The changes are very small, and could quite easily be random: it's tempting to spot a trend if you're looking for one. Even if there is a statistical relationship, Jenny observes that there's no clear causal relationship, and this phenomenon is again something I've mentioned on several occasions in other threads. But maybe -- just maybe -- a school which is concerned with dress codes is also concerned about academic performance? If that's the case, then dress codes tell you more about the school than about the pupil, and imposing dress code requirements on schools will have no effect at all.

Zebras are skeptical of changes in their cages (behavioral expectations). Thanks to the British Invasion (Beatles and Twiggy) long hair was my issue with my Dad and my sister clothing with my Mom. Military and Church and now look at their schools the American Way. It was my Dad get a haircut and Mom to my sister you're not going out looking like that.

In grammar school there was a dress code that was never violated (masochists otherwise). In high school there was uniforms initiated for the first time in my sophomore year and you had to buy it at the coach's tuxedo rental for a fortune. My folks were poor but had to buy twice for my spurt of growth at the onslaught of puberty. What rankled the boys was the (black & white saddle shoes) and the girls was (GI military like shaped plaid hat).

Nutshell dress codes should make you like the president of the United States but not pantsuits like Hilary Clinton. Girls shouldn't dress like they were going to their grandmothers funeral. Yikes. Twiggy.

prof n. I have an image in my mind of a principal taking off her heels to paddle Madonna for a dress code violation in the brace position. Jenny that's my issue not yours. I hope.

American Way:

Twiggy and I were (almost) at school together. I attended the boys school on one side of the road, and she was at the girls school on the other side. In the same year, too. Nothing wrong with Twiggy!

(I'm sure I've mentioned this before .....)

Alan: You did on Twiggy matter and I baited you to check your memory after your atypical electronic spanking machine lapse.

Wow!

I wonder if Lesley Hornby realised she was actually at school so close to someone famous?

Bet if she finds out she'll wish she'd paid more attention to Maths!

What next? Brian Clough only stayed at Forest because he wanted to get Another-Lurker on the payroll?


Steve

Hi Alan Turing ,

A quick note having seen your post , at the end of a very ,very long day. so this is from memory , but as I recall you are talking about the so-called Hawthorne studies, undertaken at the Western Electric plant in Chicago mainly in the 30'.Also you could cite possibly other similar studies in Mayo's department. The researcher was called Lansberger, but worked under Prof. Elton Mayo a functionalist sociologist (my terms ; he would have disputed that I suspect). They attempted to extrapolate from much earlier work in the school of scientific management thought, and found that workers were encouraged just by attention alone to work better. they first , as I recall fiddled about with lighting and other comfort arrangements and noted the effect, but when returning conditions to normal, but still observing saw an improvement in productivity.

This was the so called Hawthorne effect . I think the experiment was repeated in other industry but with less success.

The study was criticised heavily and quite devastatingly by , again from memory, an Australian researcher at New South Wales University called Carey.I think the article in in the American Sociological Review about 1967, but if you need the reference I'll happily check.

However, more recently ( early 2000's) Wickstrom and Bendix produced a thoughtful rejoinder in Scandinavia to the position of Carey, pointing to the needed to understand the studies not a management per se, but in terms of individual sociological and psychological studies. By reducing from the macro to the micro level this may in fact have explanatory power. ( again the reference is not immediately to memory, it was if i recall a journal to do with work and safety(?) )

I have a lot of sympathy with this latter position,and I will try tomorrow to very briefly justify it in terms of the education debate. It however requires a highly interventionist strategy, which can be objected to on grounds of 'social engineering.

Sorry to be a bit vague, but will write a bit further when I have the space to check the references.

The other contributor of note is Harry Braverman 'Labour and monopoly Capital' who argues from the class antagonism position for a crystallization of power relations as the analytical tool of choice in the workplace. . A little economistic and reductionist for today , but other Marxist theoreticians have refined the position, especially those with a knowledge of Antonio Gramsci.

I hope this is what you wanted .

Hi Steve. You say:

What next? Brian Clough only stayed at Forest because he wanted to get Another-Lurker on the payroll?

I don't know how you found out about that. There was supposed to have been a total news embargo at the time. Now is not a good time for it to surface again. I really don't want any media attention at the moment with the SFA negotiations at such a delicate stage!

prof.n:

Yes, that does sound right: "Western Electric plant in Chicago" rings a bell. Thanks.

It does indeed require a lot of effort if you continually show interest. But maybe it works because that's just what parents do to bring up their children successfully? (I've no idea whether that's true, but at least it's an interesting hypothesis!)

Hi Alan Turing,

You say


It does indeed require a lot of effort if you continually show interest. But maybe it works because that's just what parents do to bring up their children successfully? (I've no idea whether that's true, but at least it's an interesting hypothesis!)

And you can ( but should you ?) expand it further than parents.

The point I didn't expand upon last night was this .

If the Hawthorne studies are read not as management on a macro scale, but rather as a lot of cumulative micro interventions, the results make a lot more sense. For example , those who read TWP will be familiar with Renee's recounting of the Miranda incident. If not I post the link below.

In this case a rebellious girl in Goth clothing is facing repeated detentions/ISS. Renee tries another approach by paddling her , which has a shock effect, abut then working closely with her on picking up her academic work and sorting her out socially in the school ( she joins school council , and starts to develop more positive friendships. Now this can't be done in a day, and is a process of working with Miranda closely. first she wipes the slate clean with the paddling : then she monitors Miranda closely and 'manufactures' opportunities for her to develop.

This takes a lot of time and dedication on Renee's part. There is no doubt it is paying dividends. Two weeks after Miranda makes it very clear that she 'respects and values' what Renee is doing to the extent that she wants to ensure the paddling is completely behind them .

There are two questions here of a general nature. In the general rough and tumble of high school , how many of these 'special projects' could a VP take on? It clearly is resource intensive, but the results are good. However could a school be set up to see every major disciplinary infraction as a possible case for this type of intensive intervention?

One other minor point in the Dr. Dominum/Jenny debate. The incident shows how it is important to deal with the punishment in a careful manner, to make sure the 'correct' message goes home. it did in Miranda case, because Renee was careful to make her realise this wasn't a punishment because Renee didn't like her, but an attempt to give Miranda a chance to make a fresh start without personal animus. This seems one way to minimise negative effects of cp for girls ( and, in my mind, possibly everyone). .

The second major question is philosophical. should a teacher intervene in this way to 're engineer' Miranda's priorities? Is it the job of as teacher to engage in this type of social engineering at all? If you fuse educational, psychological and social objectives into one multidimensional model , it is a really powerful tool, with the ability to change lives ? Is that the job of teachers? There is a very valid philosophical discussion on this issue, and of course , it reflects closely on the uniform debate.....in 24 hours Miranda voluntarily ( the paddling was nothing to do with her appearance,) gave up being a Goth , to gain Renee's approval in her new 'supervised' environment........

I have to say yes, I believe Renee acted in the student's interest and fulfilled her obligations in full.

Any views?

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2009/09/page/2/

and follow the link forward as she reports on Miranda's ' miraculous' transformation.

A_L

I saw you sitting there at SFA HQ & envisaged your response to questions such as:

Do you consider zonal marking viable at international level?

Which current player might serve best in the hole?

Should a 4-5-1 diamond formation contain 2 or 3 central midfielders?

I knew those questions would be treated in the appropriate manner by you & that Scotland might finally be getting somewhere.

Now, I wonder if we have a distinguished hat-trick on here? Ex-Australian cricket skipper, Richie Benaud, suddenly started fulfilling the leg-spinning part of his all-round expertise on tour in India late in 1956.

Why? Because he'd found a chemist who could mix him a potion to keep his fingers supple and ease the torn and chafed skin imposed by ripping the fingers across the ball to impart spin variations.

Now, from Mr Benaud's autobiography, his chemist was getting on in years when discovered by RB. So, when the next great Aussie leg-spinner arrived, it was 1991, over 35 years later.

The other problem for Shane Warne was this;Benaud's chemist was in Sydney(RB being a New South Wales state star). Warnie is-Victorian.

And who do we know in Melbourne, state capital of Vic, whose chemistry is pretty unsurpassed?

S' right-DOC!

Now, can't you just imagine him setting the lower VIth the task of preparing something in the lab that would have unguent and relaxitive properties? After all, it would be for both state and country!!

Hardly Doc's fault if Shane drunk the first batch rather than rubbed it in his hands!!! That would also explain the dodgy texting activities of Warnie- purely to throw other aspiring leg-breakers off the scent of Doc!

Let us not forget Doc's blown a fume cupboard apart and left everything AND everybody else around the blasted object unscathed. That may not have been by design, but I still think it ranks with Isaac Newton's most important discovery.

Yes, the cat-flap. Isaac cut a large hole in his front door for Mummy cat to go out & two smaller ones nearby for the kittens-there's the appliance of science again!!


Steve

Hi Steve. You said:

A_L

I saw you sitting there at SFA HQ & envisaged your response to questions such as:

Do you consider zonal marking viable at international level?

Which current player might serve best in the hole?

Should a 4-5-1 diamond formation contain 2 or 3 central midfielders?

I knew those questions would be treated in the appropriate manner by you & that Scotland might finally be getting somewhere.

Yes, it was easy really. I just said:

"Look lads, when you've programmed in Assembler, worked out how to belay with a Cassin Logic and survived several exchanges with Jenny on the SCP Forum that sort of stuff fades into insignificance. Now about the remuneration package ............."

Another_Lurker:

45 61 73 79 20 70 65 61 73 79 21 0A 0D

Steve

I was unaware of your interest in cricket as well as football. I didn't know about Richie Genaud's sudden improvement after his relatively unsuccessful tours of 1953 and 1956 was due to chemical intervention.

Two other stories of cricketers and the subject of this forum. In his book about the 1903/04 of Australia , Pelham Warner describes how he , and others were barracked by numerous teenaged boys. The only way to deal with them , he said, was a good dose of the birch. I cannot imagine Andrew Strauss saying something like that today,

And David Lloyd described in his book how as a child living in a row of terraced house he had to walk a few doors down the road to collect a strap from his uncle and then return it after his mother had given him six of the best,

The idea of A_L being appointed manager of Scotland is a good one. No doubt his training methods would include running up and down the Munros.

DECLAN

My first cricket memories are a little later than football(15/3/56 Arsenal v Man U at Highbury).

It was the 1957 season-West Indies tour. I saw Trevor Bailey skittle them at Lords and then a bloody evil little fast bowler, Roy "Nut" Gilchrist steam in to try and retrieve the situation.

At the Oval, on the 5th Test, the wicket was PURPLE! All that Surrey loam to assist Lock & Laker-West Indies thrashed by an innings again & bowled out for something like 89 & 82!!

Also remember Wilf Wooller blowing his stack v Middlesex in 1957 at Lords. Had Glamorgan won, they'd have finished 2nd, but Middlesex held out amongst a barrage of bouncers-not bad for a solidly built 45-year old!

A_L should be a shoe-in for Scotland;after all the various muppets from Ally McLeod onwards, they are due to get it completely right one day & maybe the day has come.


Steve M

Hi Alan Turing. You say:

45 61 73 79 20 70 65 61 73 79 21 0A 0D

41 68 2C 20 62 75 74 20 63 61 6E 20 79 6F 75 20 75 73 65 20 61 20 43 61 73 73 69 6E 20 4C 6F 67 69 63 3F 20 5B 47 72 69 6E 5D 0A 0D

---

Hi Steve and Declan. I know you're not going to believe this, but negotiations have broken down with the SFA!

It wasn't the running up and down the Munros as training that was the problem, it was my proposal to bring in Valerie Thornton as Assistant Manager with special responsibility for team discipline and morale that was regarded as a little too revolutionary!

A_L

Ms Thornton bears an uncanny resemblance to Emu or Rod Stewart. The latter was responsible for the musical "masterpiece" Ole Ola when they qualified in 1982 for the World Cup in spain &, as usual, exited after the group stage, despite taking the lead against Brazil.

This could be the problem. Perhaps you need to offer her services to the somewhat older Scottish FA members themselves, who would know what a Lochgelly Tawse looks like & does.


Steve M

I actually saw a Candy cane yesterday. They were on sale in a sweet shop in the city centre. I also saw , and spoke to, Kenny Burns and Larry Lloyd at a book signing. Both these guys must be pushing 25 stone, no exaggeration.

Steve, I'll get back to you with early football and cricket memories.

Another_Lurker:

You've got me there, Guv: I prefer first-order predicate calculus myself!

Hmmm. For the innumerate amongst us, please can we be let in on the joke?

Well, as Another_Lurker drew attention to the fact that he had programmed in Assembler, I thought I'd go one better and write him a message using the hexadecimal codes for each letter. Thus 41 is a capital A, 61 is a lower-case b, and so on. That's actually how characters are stored inside a computer, and of course A_L can read and write these codes while on autopilot! (I have to look them up.)

I'm pleased to see, Another-Lurker, that, like me, you are a DOS-line-ender!

(That's another reason why I like Wordpad: it will open text files in Unix or Mac format without complaint, and then automatically re-save them in DOS format. Though if we want to continue this discussion, and perhaps morph into Unicode, maybe Computing Corner would be a better location!)

Hi Steve. You say:

Ms Thornton bears an uncanny resemblance to Emu or Rod Stewart.

You had me worried there for a moment. Wrong Rod, I thought. But then, I guess there is a resemblance in both cases! The last time I saw Emu he was attacking Parkinson. For those younger readers not familiar with 70s TV and who wish to appraise the accuracy of Steve's comparison of Emu and Ms Thornton the excellent YouTube video of the attack on the genial Yorkshireman is to be found here.

You also say:

Perhaps you need to offer her services to the somewhat older Scottish FA members themselves, who would know what a Lochgelly Tawse looks like & does.

I bet that's where I went wrong! I'll get back to them after the weekend!

---

Hi Declan. You said:

I actually saw a Candy cane yesterday. They were on sale in a sweet shop in the city centre.

There is no question about it - we are becoming totally Americanised. Halloween Trick or Treat, School 'Proms' and now Candy Canes in shops in the Queen of the English Midlands! I shall have to withdraw my cooperation from American Way in protest!

I really should get into the city centre more to monitor these things. The last time I went in the Nottingham Eye was in situ. I was a bit miffed because they gave me an OAP discount without my asking for it. However, I took some consolation from the fact that other customers were a bit thin on the ground and I think they'd have given anybody who turned up a discount just to get some cash in!

---

Hi hcj. You say:

Hmmm. For the innumerate amongst us, please can we be let in on the joke?

Sadly this is what having too much truck with computers does to one. For the record Alan Turing said:

Easy Peasy!

And I said:

Ah, but can you use a Cassin Logic? [Grin]

For anyone desirous of checking that nothing untoward is going on a translation table is to be found here.

---

Hi Alan Turing. You say:

You've got me there, Guv: I prefer first-order predicate calculus myself!

And probably first-order predicate calculus would be a great deal more use in getting you out of a tricky climbing situation than a Cassin Logic which isn't quite the worlds most weird belay device but is certainly up there with the best of them. Or perhaps that should that be down there with the worst of them!

Very flatteringly, but quite incorrectly, you say:

and of course A_L can read and write these codes while on autopilot!

I wish! For the record the last time I did any Assembler programming was back in the mid 1970s and other than a brief foray into machine code on a Sinclair QL I've sensibly stuck to high level languages since then! One inevitably encounters ASCII fairly frequently, but like you I resort to a table to translate it - or to my trusty pocket computer.

And you also say:

I'm pleased to see, Another-Lurker, that, like me, you are a DOS-line-ender!

Naturally I have to celebrate the last good OS put out by Microsoft!

And finally you say:

Though if we want to continue this discussion, and perhaps morph into Unicode, maybe Computing Corner would be a better location!

Another time perhaps!

Hi Another Lurker,

Do you realize if you had put the computer posts in the computer corner you would be MUCH nearer that magic 256 post...........


and Hi Declan as well ,


I hope you enjoyed the sugar high from the candy cane, which I hope had far less 'e' numbers , artificial this and that ,than the ones I saw in Rhode Island.......

On the same topic, has anyone else seen this pernicious trend to replace our large soft jelly beans with the small hard 'real jelly bean company' product which now adorn Harvey Nics , and many of our best stores? this invasion must be stopped. Where is Doctot Who ? We need you now......and whilst ranting because I'm dieting and my SO has removed all sugar bearing products from within reach..except a packet of these revolting little beans which escaped her beady eyes.....these horrible little beans contain the most appallingly un British flavors especially sours (?) , peanut butter and strawberry bubble gum, which smells as revolting as it tastes.

Given the antisocial nature of this product , including its smell , taste and environmental properties, please TWP, Dr. Dominum, American way and anyone else, can you immediately amend your codes of conduct to make even the THOUGHT of possessing such offensive material subject to an immediate 5 swats or six of the best without appeal!.......the world depends on you ..........

Steve

I promised to get back on early sporting experiences. I cannot remember the first football match I went to but it would probably be around 1965 , and I do remember seeing Blackburn Rovers playing about then and Forest losing a high scoring game.

I am more clear on cricket. The fist test I went to was in 1965 v South Africa and Graeme Pollock scred 125 in no time. Fred Titmus was fielding near me and had a torrid time trying to save all the boundaries coming his way.

A_L

As you say the Nottingham Eye has now gone, but has been replaced by an ice rink. So if you enjoy watching teenage girls in tight jeans falling over this is the place to be. One more anecdote from my trip to the city. I went into a pub that I very rarely use and was talking to a chap about Facebook. The very attractive barmaid joined in and gave me her full name and suggested we become Facebook friends.She is indeed on Facebook, but it did surprise me that she should give her details to a complete stranger.

DECLAN


Herewith the Pollock Match scorecard(on left)

[IMG][/IMG]


As for football, Dec 5 1964 saw:


Nottm F 2(Crowe Wignall) Blackburn 5(McEvoy 3,Byrom 2) in front of 17,110.


Steve

The other problem for Shane Warne was this;Benaud's chemist was in Sydney(RB being a New South Wales state star). Warnie is-Victorian.

And who do we know in Melbourne, state capital of Vic, whose chemistry is pretty unsurpassed?

S' right-DOC!

Now, can't you just imagine him setting the lower VIth the task of preparing something in the lab that would have unguent and relaxitive properties? After all, it would be for both state and country!!

An interesting theory.

You know... in some ways I can claim to have had a possible influence on the career of Shane Warne. He was up for a scholarship - a sporting scholarship, although not one for cricket - Australian Rules Football was his game at the time - to our school as a young boy and it fell to me to interview him. He and I may have both dodged a bullet that day. To be blunt though his sporting ability was impressive and there were aspects of his personal life that were even more impressive (he'd overcome quite severe injury as a young boy), academically speaking I thought this school would be be too much of a stretch for him. He also seemed like a rather naughty little boy, but we could have cured him of that. Overall, in the end - well, we went with somebody else. Partly for the reasons, I've described but also partly because Shane's family had the means to send him to a private school themselves if they felt they should.

Shane did eventually get a scholarship to another very good school, though it wasn't for a few years and he managed to get through academically (although reportedly by the skin of his teeth). He's spoken about that schooling a few times - and it gets a bit of attention sometimes because he does talk about the canings he received at that school. When he was mentioned here the other day, it brought to mind a story I'd heard involving him. I wasn't sure if I should discuss it but I went and raided the books on Shane Warne in the school library the other day, and I found the story in one of his biographies, so I guess it's public knowledge. The easiest way to talk about it will be to quote from the book Spun Out: The Shane Warne Story by Paul Barry.

---

The first hint of how good Warne might be as a cricketer came in early 1986 on a summer holiday trip to Geelong, where Mentone played in an annual cricket carnival. With Mason umpiring, the school's new scholarship boy clean bowled three batsmen in a row with wrong 'uns. 'They just shouldered arem', he says, 'because they thought it was going to spin the other way'.

That night, after their victory, the boys decided to celebrate. Getting hold of some beer and Island Cooler, they smuggled it into the boarding house at Geelong College where they were billeted, and got rip-roaring drunk. Despite one of the boys being violently sick out the windows, it was two weeks before they were busted, when the Geelong boys came back to their dormitory and found all the empties stashed in drawers. Before long, word got back to Mentone. And, one by one, the team filed in to see the headmaster, Bob Hutchings, and confess.

The ringleaders were assumed to be half a dozen team members who had just been made prefects and were going into Year 12, their final year. But was was to be done with them? If all was made public, the school would have to take away their prefect badges and suspend them from the team. This was unthinkable. Mentone had won the Associated Grammar Schools (AGS) premiership twice in the previous three years and was desperate to do it again. So a choice was offered: publicity and disgrace, plus suspension from the cricket team, or secrecy and six of the best. They were all delighted to choose the cane.

Although Shane was in the vanguard of this escapade, he escaped punishment because he was a year behind his team-mates at school. But he made up for it at other times by being regularly in trouble. His key crime was to muck up in class, where he had little or no interest in lessons, but was determined to get himself noticed. 'He was always pushing it, and he was not short on wit', says Tim Appel. 'Plenty of teachers decided they couldn't handle him and sent him to the head.'

A couple of years ago in a Channel 9 TV intervirew Warne confessed to Ray Martin that he had never paid attention at school and was always larking about. 'I was always seeing the headmaster every week. He was practicing his golf swing on my behind.' And in Shane Warne, My Autobiography he claims that these beatings were painful and often drew blood.

One of his best mates at Mentone, Darren Van de Loop, who was on a swimming scholarship, boasts that they often went along to get the cane together. And certainly the pair was regularly in strife. They were caught smoking behind the bike sheds and busted for chatting up the girls from the nearby girls grammar school, which made them later for assembly. They were also 'always in detention for fighting and carrying on'. But they had competitions to go to and matches to play, which sometimes got them off the hook. Top sportsmen at Mentone could clearly get away with more than the average Joe, and Warne clearly stretched the bounds of tolerance further than any. As one top cricket official laments sourly today, 'His ability to charm people is up there with his leg spin'.

Warne's version of his school days casts him as the cheeky rebel whose spirit could not be crushed by regular thrashings. But there's a fair bit of myth-making in this portrayal, as in any life story. It is more likely that his tales of retreating to the toilet to check the blood marks on his buttocks are a heroic exaggeration - which is another of Shane's exceptional talents. Indeed, his headmaster at Mentone, Bob Hutchings, claims to have rarely used the cane, and does not recal ever beating Warne. What he does remember is letting him off lightly for breaking the rules. 'He got himself into a few scrapes, and I certainly came very close to kicking him out', says Hutchings, 'but he was a great sportsmand. That's why I kept him on. I had a few conversations with him and his father about his future. . . but he was a good cricketer and winning cricket matches was important to the school'.

Hutchings is considerably tougher than the average cricket administrator, and had other concerns at Mentone apart from sport. Yet even he was persuaded to treat Warne differently, to make allowances. And thus the saga of special treatment began. Some saw nothing wrong in it back then. Fewer would defend it now. But Sven Samild reckons it's fine. 'Famous sportsmen, musicians, artists, they're all a bit different. . . and so is he'. In other words, it was only right to give him some leeway.

Certainly, Mentone let him do precious little work. And if anybody did try to whip him into shape they failed. Rick Hardy, who attempted to teach Warne English without success, says the teenage
sports start had a very clear idea of his priorities and English literature wasn't one of them:' He just didn't think it was relevant to his life'. Hardy found the boy easy to manage if he didn't try to get work out of him, so he soon opted for the easy life and let Warne idle. Before long, most of his colleagues also gave up trying.

By the end, Warne was allowed to bypass some lessons entirely. Bob Hutchings, who took him for English in his last year, recalls, 'He liked late nights and he would often arrive in the morning and say, "Sir, can I sleep today?" And I'd say, "Okay, Shane, you just sit up the back of the class, but don't snore and disturb me."'

---

This would be the cricket team mentioned above - Warne is at the right of the front row. Four prefects can be seen (lapel badge) - two on the right hand side of the back row, two between the Master and the boy in the suitjacket.

I have to say, I am somewhat baffled by the reference to Bob Hutchings as Warne's headmaster - I am 99% sure, Keith Jones was Warne's headmaster - this photo seems to confirm that.



Hutchings may have acted in the role on occasion (wouldn't surprise me at all) but only on occasion.

In any event, looking at all this, I think Shane might have been a bit better off if I had given him a scholarship. We'd have had six years to get him into shape, instead of three. And there's no way we would have let him get away with the type of things described here. I find it difficult to see how that was allowed.

Doctor Dom

Great stuff about Shane Warne. Thanks very much for that information. Kevin Pieterson has claimed he was regularly caned at school, perhaps if we have a South African correspondent he could give us a few more details of his schooldays.

Steve

Again thanks for the info. That game against Blackburn must have been the one I attended. I remember Chris Crowe and Frank Wignall. Wiggy, as he was known, later played for Derby County and I saw him often at the Baseball ground with my father who was from Derby and a fan of the club. I was speaking to my aunt the other day who said she went to the Baseball ground with my parents, who had just been married, on boxing day 1947. She was only 15 at the time but she said they gave her a few sips of whisky as it was absolutely freezing. I'd be interested to know more details of this game.

Cricket Archives give details of all cricket games , but I cannot find a similar site for football. I'm sure it would be very popular.

DOC

Thanks! If only.......!

I reckon you could have effected the most important thing Warnie needed-teach him just a little self-respect, without removing the competitive edge. And we'd now have the first Test bowler up to 1,000 Test wickets.

I might also be able to turn up a scorecard for the 1st first-class cricket match YOU saw, if you are a fan. I know quite a bit about Victorian & NSW players of the 50's.

DECLAN

Boxing Day 1947 was a Sunday, so the Christmas Day fixture(yes, they used to play on 25/12 up to the 1957/8 season) was repeated on Monday 27th.

And who did Derby play-BLACKBURN! 5-0 win,Raich Carter 2,Harrison 2 & Morrison-attendance 25,366.

Also, my late Mum watched her only League match that season-Millwall v Spurs, Div 2,Good Friday 26 March 1948. 0-0 in front of 42,288 & Dad had to take her out at half-time,the crowd was too much for her!!

Her cousin, Des Quinn, played his only game for Blackburn the next one after Derby, 1-1 home to Chelsea New Year's Day 1948. And where did Des go for 4/5 seasons after Rovers-Millwall!

This info is out of Association of Football Staisticians Football League Match by Match 1947/8. £12 a shot & it is also downloadable as well.

What would really be the crack is a cuttings library to put the result as printed in the papers at the time, so you;d also get the half-time score, goal times etc.



Steve