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Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 18 2010 at 1:17 AM
American Way 

 
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.

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American Way

1877 amazing similar debate

July 18 2010, 1:40 AM 

I'm focussing the archives on the debate and not the incideces in this thread. Do the UK or Australia have archival availability of newspaers like the New York Times. Key search words have payed off. You don't use paddling or caning as much as whipping and spanking for older materials. I have discovered the search word ROD coming up with interesting materials. The night is still young I hope to ferret some interesting links.

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StevefromSE5

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 18 2010, 11:43 AM 

AW


Thanks again-notice the most interesting point in both debates?

All about BOYS-girls not even mentioned. Bet Jenny would have had something to say about that!happy.gif


Steve

 
 
Jenny

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 20 2010, 12:39 AM 

Hi StevefromSE5

>Thanks again-notice the most interesting point in both debates?

All about BOYS-girls not even mentioned. Bet Jenny would have had something to say about that!happy.gif


As I've said many times before, in many schools girls were allowed to do as they wished without fear of punishment. At least partly due to this, there was little chance of their making anything of their lives either. sad.gif


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 21 2010, 2:01 PM 

The Rod cows the spirit of a proud boy. Another good reason 1883?

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American Way

Blowing in the Wind

July 21 2010, 5:32 PM 

Pupils and teachers up in arms over (you'll never guess why) to strike against CP.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 21 2010, 8:56 PM 

Well written "folksy" account of flogging substitutes. Girls seem to be very well behaved in 1904. Teaching seemed like so much fun. What happened?

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 24 2010, 2:47 AM 

Praxis. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

http://carmarthenshirehistorian.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Historian/LlanellySchools1800_1870

Llewelyn Bevan says that Mr. Hancock was a good musician and proficient in Latin. The discipline at this school was unusually lax. The pupils would dare to escape out of the window before the teacher would arrive for the Latin class. In most places this would not be attempted; discipline was strict, somtetimes harsh. When David Adams went to the Bryn in January 1867, he had no recourse to corporal punishment, but he soon changed his mind. The Llwynhendy master lost some of his children to the Bryn in 1864, because of strictness, and many left Llanelli School on 11 April 1864 for the same reason. Sometimes the children were "severely beaten," and there were examples of a parent asking a teacher to flog his child. It is refreshing to note that one of the regulating principles of the Llanelli school was that "the moral nature of the pupils was not to be blunted by undue corporal punishment." A real attempt was made to adhere to this principle, and for a while corporal punishment was abandoned. The children, however, took advantage of this, and the entry for 28 November 1866 reads: "Made an example of them."

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

October 22 2010, 2:43 PM 

Some of the very issues discuss here are discussed in Glasgow March 19, 1935. A teacher (temper) should have self control whilst (first time I used this British) while teaching self control to students.

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KK

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

October 22 2010, 10:41 PM 

Spanking by electricity
A way of over coming objections to men spanking women?

New York Times Feb. 14, 1898

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

October 23 2010, 2:51 AM 

Ultimate Spanking Devices and Corporal Punishment Machines

Boy how things have changed. Google the above address.

 
 

Another_Lurker

That 1897 Spanking Chair

October 23 2010, 10:24 PM 

Hi KK. You said above of the spanking chair for recalcitrant young ladies featured in the 1897 NY Times article:

Spanking by electricity
A way of over coming objections to men spanking women?

Well, it might have been if it hadn't been a hoax. It was first identified as a hoax by our ever industrious fellow contributor American Way in his initial post in this thread. Sadly the Google Books link he gave to the story of the hoax no longer works, at least not in the UK. However this link will still reveal enough information to indicate the nature of the hoax.

Briefly (having read the full book link when it was available) a delegate to the Annual Congress of Correction of the American Correctional Association put a reference to an electric spanking chair into his presentation as a joke. Still in jocular mode it was subsequently suggested as a suitable acquisition for the Denver Industrial School For Girls, which at the time was known to be having a difficult time managing its inmates. The press, as they are wont to do, picked up the story and ran a great deal further with it than was warranted, hence the New York Times article.

There was indeed a 'Warden Hoyt', but he was warden of the Colorado State Prison at the time and I doubt he had many young ladies amongst his inmates there!

 
 
KK

Joke or hoax or not

October 23 2010, 11:24 PM 

A hoax perpetrated by the NYT or a joke not recognized as such? In any event, the joke suggests there was an issue at the time of how to deal with women.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Joke or hoax or not

October 23 2010, 11:51 PM 

Hi KK. You said of the NYT electric paddling chair item:

A hoax perpetrated by the NYT or a joke not recognized as such?

The logical answer is the latter. However it may well have been the former, as I have to say that many of the old NYT items linked here give me the impression that the paper had some comedians on its staff at the time! Of course that may merely be the result of viewing them from a modern perspective, the past being most definitely another place, which we shouldn't judge by our standards.

And you also said:

In any event, the joke suggests there was an issue at the time of how to deal with women.

There's always an issue of how to deal with women, and not just in those areas where an electric spanking chair might come in handy! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
KK

Filling the page

October 23 2010, 11:55 PM 

Newspapers don't like blank space and need a supply of human interest and other bits and pieces of soft news to fill the gaps. Even the NYT is not immune.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Joke or hoax or not

October 24 2010, 2:55 AM 

Hi Another_Lurker

There's always an issue of how to deal with women, and not just in those areas where an electric spanking chair might come in handy! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

Are you trying to wind someone up? wink.gif

This story reminds of the Dihydrogen Monoxide scare.

You may be aware of an earlier method of resolving that issue, before the use of electricity became practical, involving a chair and a large quantity of the said noxious substance. sad.gif


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Joke or hoax or not

October 24 2010, 3:26 AM 

Hi Jenny. What! Still awake and on the web at a time like 02:55! You really should be ashamed of yourself! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

You said of my reference to the ever present difficulties in dealing with women, even in those circumstances where an electric spanking chair is not appropriate:

Are you trying to wind someone up? wink.gif

Now would I dare? happy.gif

Your reference to Dihydrogen Monoxide and link to the DHMO homepage is a timely one. Even today many people are not aware of how dangerous this all pervading chemical can be!

I am familiar with the historical method of resolving the issue of dealing with women that you mention. In view of the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide which was involved it is just as well that they hadn't invented electricity and thus couldn't electrify the seating device used in that process! wink.gif

 
 
Jenny

Re: Joke or hoax or not

October 26 2010, 2:11 AM 

Hi Another_Lurker

You said:
Hi Jenny. What! Still awake and on the web at a time like 02:55! You really should be ashamed of yourself! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

You know me, I'm shameless wink.gif Anyway, 02:55 isn't as bad as 03:26. wink.gif

Your reference to Dihydrogen Monoxide and link to the DHMO homepage is a timely one. Even today many people are not aware of how dangerous this all pervading chemical can be!

Frightening, isn't it? Yet, when I was a girl, every schoolboy (and quite a few schoolgirls) knew to avoid it - especially when mixed with Sodium salts of long chain carboxylic acids such as Sodium Octodecanoate. wink.gif


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Joke or hoax or not

October 26 2010, 3:12 AM 

Hi Jenny. You said of Dihydrogen Monoxide:

Frightening, isn't it? Yet, when I was a girl, every schoolboy (and quite a few schoolgirls) knew to avoid it - especially when mixed with Sodium salts of long chain carboxylic acids such as Sodium Octodecanoate. wink.gif

Yes indeed, it is a scandal of childcare that children were ever exposed to such a dangerous combination of noxious chemicals. Even now, many years later in my 60s, I remember the dreadful suffering that ensued when the resulting solution got into one's mouth or eyes! sad.gif

 
 
American Way

Another amazing similar debate

December 17 2010, 9:19 PM 

I like the metaphorical language in this article. It does make a case against parental opting.

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American Way

The travails of a substitute teacher.

April 12 2011, 6:45 PM 

I have a classmate laid off from a large company who for the last two years waits for call to sub to supplement his wife's income as a teacher. He complains constantly about the behavior of his high school chargers especially the way the girls dress. They have a daughter and a son ten years older and I think that is where he sets his bar both older than mine. Happily ours are out of their nest but one still sleeps in his room and still doesn't do his chores. Make them back there own school loans I tell them. Substitutes are often walked upon but that is something that is not altogether beyond control if the administration backs them.

There is something to be said for a happy medium between the terrorism of the Nuns and the laxity of today's school. I must say my classmate was a goody two shoes and perhaps has forgotten some of the uglier parts of his Catholic education from the students who did not curry favor. I would rather be known as a cut up than a suck up; I was neither and still paid the price. I previously referred to him as the one I said I would rather be hit than molested. He referred to the same Nun. He rebuffed her advances as an eight grader. My comment was not well received by his school teacher wife. She said that my accounts corroborated her husband's and lends more credence to his memories.

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American Way

Precocious Criminals

October 29 2011, 3:16 PM 

A strongly held POV for corporal punishment and against its critics. He would be put in the loony bin now and thankfully (IMHO) the stout birch rod into the garbage bin. The language of precocious criminals mirrors the Alabama corporal punishment incident reports referring to students as perpetrators/offenders for the all encompassing disruptive or worse still defiance such as chewing gums, elastics, etc., that cannot go un-retaliated. N.B. the CP (five swat bruises)/suspension conundrums are akin to the (six stroke bleeding)/incarceration. Understandably, there wasn't much room for counseling then as there is now. But is it offered in schools that give a nod and a wink or look the other way today?

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP18810219.2.12


 
 
American Way

Flogging of Girls Christchurch New Zealand

November 1 2011, 4:06 PM 

At the turn of the century there was quite a controversy in many parts of the world concerning the flogging of girls. This is well documented in New Zealand through the excellent resource of papers past.

Barbaric Methods WCTU of Ta Oranga.

November 29 1907

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December 5, 2007

An Interjection and reply

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Defense March 25, 1908

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Protests Against Exoneration (Previous Posted)

April 18, 1908

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Off Topic Prior Amusing Incident. Bear with me for citing collateral products of my research.

November 7, 1908

Excited Woman

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Te Oranga Home Now Girl's Training Centre, Burwoood Christchurch

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American Way

Katherine Duer (Mrs. Clarence Mackay) non-spankists

November 2 2011, 12:52 AM 

Abolition of corporal punishment and suffragists went hand in hand a century ago. July 31, 1905 renowned Mrs. Clarence Mackay enters race.

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August 3, 1905 New York Socialite parlays her fame and beauty to get her way as an "uncompromising non-spankists". Mrs Mackay Elected. Quite an election indeed.

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August 16, 2006 Mrs Mackay Objects to SCP

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Mrs Mackay is cause de celebrate for the town's cane aversive students who love her.

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September 5, 1906

Easy Spanking Cause Won by Mrs. Mackay.

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The very lovely "uncompromising nonspankists", suffragists Katherine Duer soon to be ex of Clarence Mackay.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

November 14 2011, 7:31 PM 

The corporal punishment debate in The Age newspaper 1973 Melbourne may be of interests to some from a historical glimpse of usage of corporal punishment?

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

November 21 2011, 10:50 PM 

I had previously referenced Professor Frank M. McMurray prescient rules governing school corporal punishment.

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The fact that he would establish schools spaced throughout New York for spanking escaped my attention.

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American Way

Journal of the Board of Education of the City of New York

January 19 2012, 5:20 PM 

Ratio of male and female grammar school recipients of corporal punishment are an eye opener in this 19th century study. Compare this to the OCR of paddling in the USA and is nothing in comparison. Were girls better behaved or were less asked of them? I think it is the former for the definition of acting lady like seemed burdensome. Human nature being human nature.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

January 28 2012, 5:35 AM 

In light of the use of the words, reasonable chastisement, I did not think it altogether inappropriate to take a closer look at the evolution of those words, in light of their entrance into the parlance of these debates surrounding these issues both domestically and scholastically.
Lord Chief Justice Cockburn 1860.

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Cockburn outrage: May 26, 1868

A terrible case of cruelty to a child was tried the other day at Leeds, before Lord Chief -justice Cockburn. A woman, by the consent of his father and mother, obtained possession of her nephew, and subjected him to cruelties too terrible to relate. The poor child gave his evidence in the clearest manner, and, as it was borne out by various independent witnesses, the jury would do no other than convict the prisoner, and the judge sentenced her to 15 years' penal servitude. The only pity is, that our humanitarian notions forbid such a wretch being whipped, for, as the judge remarked, all words seemed thrown awajr on her. Her " innate lust of cruelty" seems almost to demand some such bodily punishment. If flogging is good for the back of a garotter for nearly strangling an able bodied man, who at least would give the ruffian what lie deserved if only he had the chance, surely some corporal punishment is due to a woman (herself a mother) who deliberately tortures a poor weak child who can offer no resistance. lam afraid, however, that any one who proposed this, in enlightened England, would be forthwith dubbed a Haynau, or at least a Butler.

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His Honor Mr. Justice Williams.

Home Corporal Punishment. Alexander and Carrie Fleming.

March 27, 1885

Carrie Trial.

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March 28, 1885

Alexander Trial

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Flemings Outcome.

April 10, 1885

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School Corporal Punishment.

Here is an example of the word reasonable, more apropos in relevance to this estimable Forum, within the scholastic context.

June 25, 1886.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

January 30 2012, 5:31 PM 

One of the more thorough and informative debates on the pro/con of school corporal punishment. I found page 69 most interesting.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 2 2012, 5:17 AM 

Boys at Home, Discipline, masculinity, and the "Boy-Problem" in Nineteenth Century American Literature. 2009. Ken Perille. Chapter 2 argues that debates about corporal punishment are crucial sources for the cultures ideas about gender difference and pedagogical practice. This may make Jenny cringe.

http://utpress.org/bookdetail-2/?jobno=T01256

Introduction available UK and USA:

http://core.ecu.edu/ENGL/parillek/BAHintro.pdf

Google accessible USA and maybe elsewhere.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 3 2012, 4:34 PM 

William Charles Bagley was a prominent anti-school corporal punishment representative in the early 20th century. This has been referenced before but not the video. Progressive Education 1940's.

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http://youtu.be/opXKmwg8VQM

Here arev some historical artifacts and story.

1907 History.

Country School by Clifton Johnson

http://www.archive.org/details/countryschool00john

Schools Between 1830 to 1860

http://www.kellscraft.com/CountrySchool/CountrySchool03.html


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 11 2012, 5:25 AM 

Winnipeg 1882:

White kid gloves for teachers who refrained from strapping through the end of a term? Six teachers qualified for a pair like the reward for a judge in absence of a criminal docket. They do admit there are two sides to the issue.

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American Way

One Dollar And Costs

February 20 2012, 6:06 PM 

While stories abound in books about 19th century school corporal punishment this one distinguishes itself by its early date and publication in the newspapers. No doubt the early part of the nineteenth century there would be the use of the switch but case reaching the courts due to abuse wold reach the news. I am sure when more newspapers of that era are made available there would be more written. The judge showed Solomonic wisdom.

February 14 1846

While stories abound in books about 19th century school corporal punishment this one distinguishes itself by its early date and publication in the newspapers. No doubt the early part of the nineteenth century there would be the use of the switch but case reaching the courts due to abuse wold reach the news. The judge showed Solomonic wisdom.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 9 2012, 11:58 PM 

1910. A tip of the proverbial hat is in order for their strength of conviction, clarity of thought and ability to communicate within the rules of writing. Imagine how better they would be if I could have them as my students?

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 11 2012, 12:45 AM 

I liked the graphic and the range of opinion of people in responsibility. I saw this but I'm not sure if I posted it at that time.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 13 2012, 5:42 AM 

Argus 1922. Can you imagine resisting a teacher? A girl joining in the fray to boot. Those country kids can be a handful. Like our girls from Iowa and not our Southern Belles. The raising of the school age brought another dimension the pedagogues had to consider.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 24 2012, 4:44 AM 

The pendulum swings both ways. Today's popular theories may seem as out of fashion as these in 1905 in less than 107 years. Today's self-proclaimed wizards should not grow too content. There may be a kernel of truth in these insights that are dismissed in a cursory manner. Politically correct isn't always correct. The less persuasive some are the more coercive they become.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

April 9 2012, 9:44 PM 

Thoughts on school corporal punishment. Consider the arrogance of those who pontificate without any sense of history. Are they that needy to think they are the only ones who have walked this planet so are the only ones worth listening to? KK already listed schools that used corporal punishment by dates and regions in the USA so some of this data might seem old hat but it is still worth perusing and pursuing. There are contemporary similarities in those trajectories also worth considering.

On many occasions I have share with this estimable Forum how I judged the moods of the nuns by the moons and thy use to call me a lunatic. sad.gif

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

June 5 2012, 11:20 PM 

Here is a rather extensive coverage of the issue of school corporal punishment 1919 from Australia.

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Corporal Punishment of Girls. It was not the desire of any teacher that corporal punishment should be inflicted generally, but there were certain girls who had to be punished in some way, and he thought the manner of that punishment should be left to the conference. There were three stages in the life of the girl which required three different forms of treatment. There must be some power to deal with girls who made themselves nuisances, for one or two undisciplined girls in a class would disturb the 'whole' influence of a school. In a mixed school, a male teacher with many years' experience was not allowed to use his discretion in the matter, and the girl had to be handed over to the headmistress, which was degrading to her, and was a responsibility the man.


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

June 6 2012, 4:47 AM 

1906 the boy versus girl attitudes toward the corporal punishment of girls versus boys is so different from todays. The article gives the reader a flavor of the opinions that people had toward school as well as domestic corporal punishment. The fighting, the black eye and the stubbed toe alone made the story appealing from my POV.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

June 7 2012, 4:47 AM 

Famed Dr Henry Suzzallo theory of school self government.

Humble beginnings.

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Principal Suzzalo Arrested By Pupils with Great Ideas of Self Government.

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With unparalleled succeses.

http://www.lib.washington.edu/suzzallo/suzzhistorytour

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

July 22 2012, 2:00 AM 

Dr R B Norman pedagogue and paddler and Art Collector. Pray But Keep Your Powder Drive.

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American Way

Cruel But Funny Schoolmaster

August 14 2012, 4:54 AM 

American Annals of Education, Volume 5 1835

My punishments were must of them summary. Sometimes there was a formal feruling or flogging, but this was rare. It took up too much time. I knew of a shorter method. This was to carry a rule under my arm, and when I discovered a transgressor, to strike him across the head with the rule. As to endangering the brain, I never thought of that. Indeed I scarcely knew there were brains in the cranium. I was only eighteen years of age; and as inexperienced in human nature, as you can possibly conceive.

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American Way

The dreaded and ubiquitous switch.

October 27 2012, 6:20 PM 

1929 life in Tennessee. Spare the rod works both ways.

The student teacher switch.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

October 30 2012, 4:14 AM 

Dr Milton E Blanchard became the president of the California Teach Association in the beginning of the twentieth century. He wasn't afraid of sparing the rod. The Curious Case of Dr M. E. Blanchard.

February 19, 1902

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April 10, 1902

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May 30, 1902

Annie Mathieson,a former pupil of Miss Perry, testified in behalf of Miss Perry that she had alwayscounseled her pupils to be good. On one occasion after she was superseded by Miss Peckham a pupil threatened to roll marbles across the floor and put a mouse in Miss Peckham's desk. Miss Perry advised against such conduct.

Second column from the right.

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June 5, 1902. Last column exonerated. Mrs Perry testimony was impeached.

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Not the last heard of him.

June 27, 1905.

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Even exonerated your past follows you.

January 14, 1906

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

November 28 2012, 9:10 PM 

History of the burgh and parish schools of Scotland, Volume 1 By James Grant 1876

http://archive.org/details/historyburghand00grangoog

Search Corporal Punishment.



 
 
American Way

SPANKING A LOST ART.

January 1 2013, 5:22 AM 

SPANKING A LOST ART.

What caught my attention was it was October 16, 1890. A rather early debate to be to be given such prominence.

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American Way

To the turn of the hickory stick.

January 25 2013, 6:12 PM 

Hickory Tea 1921. Mattie Bell Oates a 23 year old schoolmarm whipped a daughter of a school trustee and escaped an assault charge. With 51 students, as in my catholic schooldays, there seem to be little likelihood that she would be convicted by a jury of her peers for serving "hickory tea". Whether it was the sign of the times but it seemed that most cases that reached the courts were male teachers corporally punishing girls and to a lesser extent women teachers punishing girls. It would seem that the same punishment for boys by either gender did not make the news. Double standard I suppose.

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May she rest in peace.

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Hickory Tea. 2010.

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American Way

How times do change!!! November 19, 1909

February 15 2013, 1:36 AM 

The standards of whether SCP is appropriate or not has changed by place and time with ups and downs but of late it is down and down. In fewer places and lesser and lesser in time now.

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American Way

Schoolboy revolt 1911.

February 20 2013, 1:43 AM 

Looking back. Schoolboy revolt 1911.

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Northern Star (Lismore), NSW, September 21, 1911

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 23 2013, 9:04 PM 

With the recent discussion about the averse effect of removing the paddle from the USA, I think it might be worthwhile to read what was discussed in the British Columbia after the strap abolition. Would things be any different forty years late? Too many other factors would have to be considered.

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Another_Lurker

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 23 2013, 10:50 PM 

Hi American Way,

A fascinating item, and one which will doubtless be of interest to HH in the unlikely event that he is not already aware of it.

 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 23 2013, 11:32 PM 

Hi American Way and A_L, that was an interesting read, and while I was not aware of this particular article, there is nothing coming to mind that particularly stands out. For the anti-SCPers to claim that school discipline did not decline after it's removal is simply wishful thinking on their part to support their ideology, but it is factually untrue as there is a mountain of public reports available showing how infact, general student behaviour did decline as bans were imposed across the country. (see my discussion with Renee1979 here and here

In fact, as I had documented, most of the earlier bans were overturned and the strap reinstated exactly for this reason, and it once again remained availalble until the wave of bans came in the 1980's. Even in BC, the province wide ban (1973)... the problems became so unmanageable in the Greater Victoria School Board that the province offered them the right to reinstate the strap if wanted, even though it was banned! Bans come about for many reasons, but questions of efficacy/ineffectiveness is factually not one of them.

Note also the mention to psychologists, which I had pointed out to Renee in the first of two links. This was not a panacea either, although inthe practical sense I'm sure it helped to some degree.

  


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 12:15 AM 

Yes, quite right prof.n on your observations. All of the actual data I analysed here were from schools who used SCP in the manner I would have envisaged: judiciously and sparingly (in the order of 25 incidents/year per 1,000 pupils). Thus, it was only for very serious offences and usually after repeated warnings (which was a common notation in the punishment book). I certainly agree that using it more than that and for minor issues ... it not only loses it's effectiveness but can introduce a myriad of unintended harm as well.

In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good. Looking along the distribution curve, there was usually a small minority of the population (0.3%) who "required" repeated strappings, and comprised a full one-sixth of all SCP incidents. This, alone, should have tipped off any observant educator that there was an overriding issue with such a child, which cause needed to be isolated and rectified (perhaps abusive, uncaring, or alcoholic parents, unidentified learning disability, etc...).

Something I wanted to respond to Renee, and forgot to. O.S.S. was the common replacement for serious offences (and not so serious as well?). I have seen individual school statistics where, immediately following SCP bans, up to 25% of the entire student enrollment has been suspended during the school year. It was "determined" (not by me) that this was effective and restored school discipline closer to former levels ... but at what cost (to the child's welfare) I must wonder?

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 12:33 AM 

Just to clarify "In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good". For example, I analysed a typical elementary CP book in my "Canadian Regulation School Strap" book, and this was so typical of what I found. Specifically to this comment, average CP incidents were 25.9/year over a 19 school-year span. The school had ave enrollment of approx. 1,000 pupils (2.6% incident rate) and most importantly, 61% of strapped pupils were only strapped once in their entire school career, 75% twice of less, and 85% thrice or less, so for the bulk of the pupils, the fear/respect/deterrence, or whatever you want to call it, seemed to be effective from this standpoint. I have no way to measure the deterrent effect on other pupils who were not strapped as there is no baseline with which to compare how they would have behaved if it never existed. However, that conclusion can be drawn by how their behaviour changed once they knew all SCP was banned.

 

 


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 11:09 AM 

Hi HH

Thank you for your very interesting statistics. Some of them contrast quite strongly with my observations when at school in the 1960s and with what I understand from teachers.

I have seen individual school statistics where, immediately following SCP bans, up to 25% of the entire student enrollment has been suspended during the school year.
Do I take it these were high schools ? What were the suspension figures in the final year of SCP ?
It certainly seems to indicate stunning levels of incompetence by those in power unless we are talking of schools in gang dominated inner cities.

In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good. Looking along the distribution curve, there was usually a small minority of the population (0.3%) who "required" repeated strappings, and comprised a full one-sixth of all SCP incidents.
In contrast the 0.3% you quote here appears to be an incredibly low figure, much lower than my observations or understanding from teachers. It also seems to conflict with the 15% (a much more believable figure) of elementary school students in your following post who received 4 or more strappings in the very low CP environment you outline (25 incidents/year per 1,000 pupils).

Prof.N made the following comment:
However those that created the substantial minority on whom the vast majority of corporal punishment was used , obviously by their recidivist tendencies were immune to its 'curative properties'. These children need special help , and if they were receiving repeat corporal discipline, obviously were not getting it.
This was very much my observation. In the 1960s these children were caned repeatedly and most left school at 15.
As far as I can see in the 2000s there are many approaches which are tried. However they remain a huge problem for teachers - I have heard some graphic descriptions of classroom events.

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 12:32 PM 

In light of some of the considerations being made in today's estimable Forum it is interesting to note this opinon expressed in 1955 with reference to strapping. Look where we are almost 60 years later. True, the girls being on the receiving end considerations are not as evident here, but not where corporal punishment is most often administered outside the western world and the developed countries.

CLICK


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 2:11 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney,

I can see where the confusion lies by your statement, "It also seems to conflict with the 15% (a much more believable figure) of elementary school students in your following post who received 4 or more strappings..." so I'll clarify this.

It is not 15% of all elementary students who received 4 or more strappings, it is 15% of all strapped-pupils, who received 4X or more. In this school, over the 20 years, there were 234 pupils (of about 3,000 pupils who attended the school over that time) who were strapped one or more times. So, roughly 8% of the pupils were strapped at some time, and 92% of pupils never were. Of the 234 pupils, 143 of them (61% of strapped pupils) were strapped only once, 32 (14%) were twice, and 24 (10%) were strapped exactly 3X. 35 pupils were strapped 4X or more, and those 35 represent 15% of strapped pupils, and 1.2% of the total enrollment over that period.

Total incidents were 492, which averages 26 strappings per school year, and with an average enrollemnt of 1,000 pupils, this was an ave. SCP administration rate of 2.6%. I personally consider that to be a reasonable SCP admin rate, as it reflects that it is not used daily or even weekly, and therefore not for trivial or minor offences. 

Nine students, representing 0.3% of all enrollment, took 7 or more strappings (2 std dev. on the curve) and accounted for 84 of the 492 incidents, or about one sixth, of all strappings meted. It is these children I refer to when I say above "This, alone, should have tipped off any observant educator that there was an overriding issue with such a child, which cause needed to be isolated and rectified (perhaps abusive, uncaring, or alcoholic parents, unidentified learning disability, etc...)."

Regarding high suspension rates. Here's one handy to me: The Toronto Board banned SCP in1971. Five years later, suspensions were liberally meted at the Park Street School to restore discipline. (I infer it to be an elementary school as suspensions were handed out for jumping on teacher's cars, climbing trees, and the like). In this case, 330 suspensions (1 day, 12 day and rarely 30 day) were handed out to 165 of the school's 870 pupils, or about 20% of the school's enrollment had been suspended at least once in that school year.


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 2:52 PM 

Hi HH

Thank you very much for the detailed clarification and extra information. You are quite right, I had misunderstood the percentages. You don't specify the years but I can relate to the figures as I suspect they roughly correspond to the use of formal CP in my (very restrained for the times) primary schools. It would certainly be a rather dysfunctional primary school kid to be caned 7 or more times with that sort of regime. In contrast I am aware of other schools (at least in the UK and Australia) where the cane was used multiple times every day by particular teachers.

Thanks also for the clarification on Park Street. The fact that it was an elementary school certainly seems to confirm my allegation of gross incompetence by the management, unless there were special circumstances.

 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 4:57 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney,

My mind sometimes looks at things differently than most people would, so here's a thought about the Park Street suspensions. By the way, the principal stated in a later interview that the suspensions were "highly effective".

In my opinion, the effectiveness cannot be creditted to the principal. The reality of the "highly effective" comes from something beyond his control. Here's my thought process: I haven't seen this school's CP records, so I will assume that (being in the Toronto Board) the records would have been typical of other schools from say 1955 to 1971.

If SCP was still used in 1976 how many pupils would have been strapped? The school had 870 pupils, and using a 2.6% annual SCP admin rate, there would have been 22.6 strappings in the school year. Further, for pupils who were strapped, they were strapped on average 2.1 times (using the above 492 incidents over 234 pupils). That means that in a year, 11 different children would have been strapped (22.6 strappings / 2.1 ave strapping per pupil).

If the ideological intent was to save children from exposure to physical correction, I submit that the complete opposite actually occurred! For most parents, "trouble at school means trouble at home". While there are parents who are willfully blind, oblivious/indifferent or subscribe to progressive or lunatic fringe approaches (Echler, 1955) where punishment is not used, I would opine that at least half of the suspended children (and perhaps many more) were spanked at home for causing trouble at school.

Considering 165 children were suspended, that transates into roughly 80 or more children that were corporally punished at home, as an extension to the now nonexistent SCP. (Perhaps that was the principal's intent? he should have known how most parents would respond to this in the 1970's). So what we end up with is, rather than 11 children being corporally punished as a deterrent to all pupils in maintaining school discipline, we now have in excess of 80 children corporally punished, which is only a deterrent to the 80, but not the school population. What does one make of that?

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 24 2013, 5:19 PM 

In answer to the question, the years for the SCP data presented above are 1956 to 1975. That data is from a Scarborough Elementary (K-8) (5-13 year-olds). This board has since merged into the Toronto District SB, but at that time was independent, and so while Toronto (public schools) banned SCP in 1971, Scarborough (public schools) did not ban SCP until 1985.

 


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 25 2013, 10:57 AM 

Hi HH

Thank you very much for your further posts. I would have thought that in those years, informal CP would have also been common in elementary schools. I believe it was officially frowned on in NSW, but it was widely used.

I do agree with some of your thoughts, and I think that the model you suggest seems sensible at elementary school level. However, unlike most on this forum, I have doubts as to the efficacy of school CP and concerns about its negative consequences on some children. I would certainly concede that the sudden withdrawal of CP could cause problems, though more at the middle/high school level.

I think your statement to Renee is well worth repeating:
Second is that suspensions were widely used as the replacement for SCP. This is not a panacea, because the diligent and conscientious students who would recognise the loss of several days or weeks of education as detrimental to their future are not the ones predisposed (perhaps even motivated) to causing the troubles that warrant suspensions in the first place. They were also not the usual recipients of SCP either. It is the ones that view a suspension as a holiday, that are predisposed to causing the issues that warrant suspensions. And true to a reward-based philosophy & system, it unintentionally rewards this type of individual by giving them a holiday whenever they offend - as they don't understand the negative ramifications of it. In essence, rewarding bad behaviour and thereby only reinforcing it. "Wouldn't you rather wander the streets and party with the hood than be bored in school?" ...kind of attitude. That's one of the conundrums that all this has created.

I fully agree with this statement, and it is the reason why I am strongly opposed to suspension except where teacher or student safety is involved. For those who are persistently disruptive, or any of a multitude of other offences, there must be a better way.

Even in paddling states such as Florida and Louisiana the suspension rates are appalling. American Way linked to some figures on Florida in the third link in this post .

Surprisingly suspensions were slightly higher in the paddling ISDs than the non paddling ISDs. Expulsions in the paddling ISDs were at well over the double the rate of the non paddling ISDs.
Paddling ISDs: OSS 10.4%, ISS 11.2%, Expulsions 7.8 per 10000 students, Total students 329,775
Non Paddling ISDs: OSS 8.8%, ISS 9.8%, Expulsions 3.1 per 10000 students, total students 2,331,562
I am not claiming this is any way conclusive but I do find it interesting. I should emphasise that even in the paddling ISDs the overall rate of CP use was very low (1.6%).

As far as the Park Street School is concerned, surely there would have been many other ways to achieve discipline in an elementary school. I can only guess at the Principal's motives - maybe he was part of a political game by those opposed to abolition, using the children as pawns.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 25 2013, 4:24 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney

I would certainly concede that the sudden withdrawal of CP could cause problems, though more at the middle/high school level.

It's due to the sudden change, no the lack of CP per se.

Any action, no matter how slight, taken in response to misbehaviour can be seen as a punishment when there is nothing to compare it to. A simple telling off can be an effective punishment but if, for the same offence, another child receives what is perceived as a more serious or severer punishment, the child who is just told off feels let off completely.

The same thing happens when a sanction, especially one considered serious, is suddenly removed. If, yesterday, you knew the punishment for offence 'X' would be (for example) the cane but, today, you know that, no matter what you did, you couldn't be caned, you could form the impression that you would have to be let off so you would have no reason to behave.

The problem with removing CP was that some teachers had adopted the role of "oppressor" and used it to beat children into submission. In addition, some would attempt to quell dissent by causing friction in the ranks - "divide and conquer". The easiest way to do this was to break the class up into smaller groups (boy and girls for example) and set one against the other by treating them differently - sometimes by favouring one group in some ways and the other in other ways. When CP is removed, the oppressor no longer has the means to oppress so faces almost instant rebellion.

Those teachers who, instead, adopted the role of "pack leader", so becoming a member of "the pack" and keeps control by mutual respect. I believe, whether he's conscious of it or not, that's the role Prof N adopts. Pack leaders can still use CP but, when or if they do, they are not attempting to beat their pack members into submission, they are only (re)establishing the pecking order. It such cases, the CP need be little more than a token. In a classroom situation, when a pack member offends, she or he is called to the front so being isolated from and temporarily ostracised by the pack. By accepting punishment, she or he signifies recognition of the pack leader's authority and is accepted back. If CP is removed, nothing much changes, the mutual respect remains and the CP 2token" can be easily replaced with another.

I believe that's what the teacher in the paddling video being discussed in the QUESTIONS YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK TWP II thread although, in that case, she was making a right hash of it.


 
 
American Way

Re: Latest Video Paddling

February 25 2013, 4:56 PM 

Making a hash of it. What happened in that classroom probably stayed in that classroom like Las Vegas. She doesn't look like one who would bother with paperwork or parents. Not to bend over is a dangerous exception. That last swat was border line high. The teacher felt she was safe with then and so could be more familiar.

Why was she asking them to stand up and not bend over? The black girls seem to instinctively assume that position at one point. Did the white girl say detention before paddling started. Hard to tell. What was too late all about? I don't speak ebonics. I'm hopeful that the white girl when she serves our Armed Service will see the world and know it';s much larger than where she came from.


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 25 2013, 6:32 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney, I find our discourse quite interesting, as it brings to mind several facets worth commenting on.

"I would have thought that in those years, informal CP would have also been common in elementary schools." This was true to varying degrees, but that was very Board-dependent. That is why it's very important, when looking at SCP statistics, to stay with Boards with long-ago adopted regulations like the Toronto ones... Regulations that required strapping on hands only, in the office only, by the principal or designate only (and the designate could not be the teacher who bought in the child to avoid any punishment meted in anger), mandatory witness and that each incident must be recorded. In Boards like these, a teacher who CP'd a child in any other venue/method, etc, could be fired. Because of this, unlike comments I've read from KK regarding reliablility of the completeness of such records, here one can be confident that the records accurately reflect every incident of SCP, and the data is thus reliable and meaningful.

"the sudden withdrawal of CP could cause problems, though more at the middle/high school level." I certainly agree with this, and this brings up something that I'm sure many will not agree with me on. In Ontario, SCP was relatively absent from High Schools, including the ones in the Board I went to (although I didn't know it at the time, damned!!!).

Like most parents, I'm forced to become an amateur child psychologist. Infact, if you came into my study, you would see an entire bookshelf dedicated to books on psychology, child or adolescent psychology, reward and punishment methodology, pro & anti-CP books & opinions, etc...

The first thing I must conclude (and I've said somewhere before) is that every child is different and what works extremely well for one is anywhere from useless to harmful for another. Because in my family's case it proves quite salutary, this obviously colours my opinion and entrenches my resolve that we should retain it (PCP). If it indicated otherwise, I would quickly abandon it for other approaches, if they proved more effective. (More on this in a follow-up post).

The second, and more salient conclusion (it may be right or wrong, but it is my opinion) is that CP is most effective for children up to the age of about 12. Thereafter, they become sufficiently amenable to reason (several child-psychology books generally mirrored this statement) such that other methods gain effectiveness, while at the same time, the risks of unintended harm from CP begin to rise. So I believe that SCP for high school students is inappropriate. Most ON boards believed the same thing, as they didn't allow it from Grade 9 and up (our High school). Also, our Supreme Court inadvertently conceded the same point in their January 2004 rulings, where among their guidelines, they stated that this was only appropriate for children up to age 12. (I actually so fully agree with their 2004 decision that I'm in danger of becoming a lobbyist for the retention of the 2004 rulings).

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 25 2013, 7:40 PM 

In follow-up to my comment, "Because in my family's case it proves quite salutary"... there is something I would like to share that ties in with the above discussion on the Park Street School suspensions where I commented " For most parents, "trouble at school means trouble at home".... I would opine that at least half of the suspended children (and perhaps many more) were spanked at home for causing trouble at school".

My 6-year-old son (in Grade 1) attends a public elementary school which runs K-8. Suspensions are used here. I don't know the stats but my impression is OSS is used sparingly, for only serious offences, and usually for children of higher grades. My son knows that if he misbehaves at school and is suspended, trouble at school will be trouble at home. I suspect that's the case with Renee raising Tyler as well.

Recently, two other 6yo boys decided it was a good idea to start a fire in the school's playground, and they asked my son to join in. He told me this when he came from school that day. So I asked "so what did you do?". He said he just walked away and found some other boys to play with (so he didn't know if the two set a fire). I gave him a hug and told him how proud I was of him that he made the right decision. He asked what kind of trouble he'd be in if he did that (which was a test as he clearly knew). I told him the school would have suspended him, and he definitely would have been spanked once the got home. To which he replied something like he was pertty sure that would happen.

The point of all this is, even for a six-year-old, there is a conscious thinking process at work. Being aware that there are consequences (and the expectation of such is the deterrence), allows the child to identify situations to avoid, and therefore has utility.

This shows that there is a another reversal. SCP was once an extension of in loco parentis, but truly, PCP is an extension of the now-absent SCP. It can be argued that it inadvertently supports school discipline, being an extension of behaviour at school. Therefore, once PCP is banned, I would have an expectation of further decline in school discipline.

The most important data, which we will never have is this: In the Park Street suspensions, there was recidivism becasue 330 OSS were handed to 165 pupils, an average of 2 suspension per OSS'd pupil. It's too bad we cannot know (as no one documented the answers to this question) - What was the recidivism of suspended pupils who were parentally punished at home as a result of their OSS vs. those who were not? Having data like that would really say much one way or the other.


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 11:57 AM 

Hi HH

Thank you for your two lengthy comments. I agree with most of what you say, and in particular every child is different and what works extremely well for one is anywhere from useless to harmful for another.

I have no doubt that by the age of 6, children would know they are doing wrong by lighting a fire. I would also be very surprised if parents would not impose the punishment or sanctions they they deem appropriate in such a case. This is particularly so as I regard suspension as principally a way of punishing parents rather than the children. I was deeply impressed by the remarkable figures for Renee's school in the TWP II thread - one can only imagine the efforts needed to keep OSS at that level.

I can understand some of the logic of those calling for PCP bans. The main promoters appear to be pediatricians who see the victims of CP gone wrong. The main targets are the increasing numbers of dysfunctional families, and influences such as alcohol and stress-induced temper. Beyond this I am not really up with the issues as I believe there is no real pressure for a PCP ban anywhere in Australia. Surveys appear to indicate about 80% of parents use CP, which I would have guessed may be about right. When I said this elsewhere A-L correctly pointed out this CP would have been milder and used less frequently than in earlier times.

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 1:37 PM 

Hi Jenny and Prof.N

Thank you for your interesting analyses.

I would not have characterised any of my teachers as oppressors, but I struggle a bit with the concept of a "pack leader". My recollection was of something in between - always a clear hierarchy and authority, with CP available but not used often.

The "paddling video" just seemed all wrong - the semi-jovial atmosphere would never have happened in my schools. Twice I recall boys being caned in the senior years - my only guess as to why is that they said something quietly that was perceived as insubordination. Both were extremely surprising as they were mild mannered teachers who caned rarely. In each case the boy was taken to an adjacent small room (in view of the class) and given 6 on the hands. Both teachers and boys had very red faces.

 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 6:05 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney,

You exactly pre-empted the one observation I was going to make on the (Park Street) suspension issue! There were at least two explanations for the unusually high OSS arte at this elementary. Either "gross incompetence by the management" or as you have now put it "principally a way of punishing parents rather than the children".

I believe the second is spot-on. Especially for working families, it is a real hassle to either take time off work (loss of wages) to supervise your minor child while at home, or hire someone (again costing money) to do so, unless you're fortunate to have other friends or family handy and willing to help. So yes, one way or the other, this is to punish the parents... or at least wake them up to the fact that their child has serious behavioural issues at school that need to be addressed.

And I would conclude, where you said, "Principal's motives - maybe he was part of a political game by those opposed to abolition, using the children as pawns." that indeed, the principal probably thought he had lost his ability to enforce discipline through SCP, and finally figured, "the h*ll with it, let the parents deal with it."

_______________________________________

On another thought, I had always considered that New Zealand and Australia must be culturally similar because of geographical proximity. The fact that New Zealanders accepted the imposition of a PCP ban whereas it seems well entrenched and supported in Australia would indicate to me that my first impression is in error.

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 6:45 PM 

Hi Prof.n,

That is a fascinating update. There was an interesting story about PCP in the Czech Rep. last year (in German, but I understood most of it) which included an interview with the Czech Prime Mnister. He has 4 children and stated in no uncertain terms that his country will not participate in the same folly those other EU ones do. Clip is here

"I guess enforcement action against the UK won't be far behind" ... maybe not! Am I not correct that the UK is planning to hold a referendum in 2017 to leave the EU? My impression is that the British are becoming annoyed at these elite councils in Europe interfering in internal affairs and dictating behaviour. Do I read this correctly?

Also the Council of Europe is in default on their stated mandate when they "had set 2009 as the target date for achieving universal abolition", the offending document (page 5). They are becoming increasingly nervous that certain countries are offering strong opposition to these bans. Time is not on their side. I believe they suspect the same as I do, with collapsing fertility rates being offset by robust immigration, within this or the next generation, the majority of all these countries will be from cultural backgrounds (Turks, Arabs, Black Africans and Southeast Asians) that adopt CP, not just at home but SCP and some JCP as well. Once they are entrenched majorities, it is not unreasonable to anticipate laws being changed (and CP abolitions reversed) to reflect the new face of Europe, and their custom/culture. It just happened in Egypt.

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 7:07 PM 

2017 UK vote on EU membership ... CLICK   

"Although he refused to be drawn on specific EU powers to be targeted for repatriation to the Westminster parliament, Cameron said he would consider environmental and social policy legislation as well as criminal law."

"Social policy" and "criminal law" considerations may well be code for what we've been discussing above.

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 10:46 PM 

Oh, and prof.n, may I kindly ask that you never mention CP bans and the EU again? wink.gif You must realize that bait is far too strong for me. Besides, my doctor says I should steer clear of anything that may elevate my blood pressure happy.gif

 


 
 

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 26 2013, 11:30 PM 



hi HH, Another Lurker,

The real problem is that there is little organised opposition. the Tories mouth platitudes, but look at what the education secretary, for example, really thinks

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/thread/1361572009/last-1361572009/No+caning++while+Gove+is+running+education

and Gove is the supposed right wing, so you can count most of the others out! When a referendum comes it will be with a weasel question and the BBC and other organs of the 'state' will rally behind the fear that leaving and/or renegotiating with Europe will leave us jobless, and swathes of British sheep will, wait patently in the slaughterhouse queue.It is what happened in the 70's , its what's happened in Ireland and Greece, and I don't think the only country to reject revolt in the age of revolutions will set the wheel back in spin . But that's my pessimism perhaps.

Meanwhile Scotland, the country that for more than a century abused its children far worse with the tawse than other area of Britain , will continue to fine or imprison anyone who has the temerity to slap their child in the street.

 
 

Another_Lurker

It wasn't me, honest!

February 27 2013, 12:44 AM 

Hi Prof.n,

In the salutation of your February 26 2013, 11:30 PM contribution above concerning the possible 2017 UK vote on EU membership you said:

hi HH, Another Lurker,

Not guilty Guv, I haven't contributed to this thread since February 23 2013, 10:50 PM - and that was to comment on American Way's link to a Montreal Gazette article from 1974 about school pupil behaviour post a CP ban!

I've heard of guilt by association, but this is ridiculous! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 27 2013, 7:17 AM 

I have been too busy with the start of a new school year to be reading much here, or participate - which is a pity as I can see a lot of good discussion has been going on, and on a fair number of points, it has probably now moved beyond where I can usefully comment on some issues, but I will weigh in on this.

On another thought, I had always considered that New Zealand and Australia must be culturally similar because of geographical proximity. The fact that New Zealanders accepted the imposition of a PCP ban whereas it seems well entrenched and supported in Australia would indicate to me that my first impression is in error.

HH, it seems to me a Canadian could be more aware than most of the fact that geographical proximity to another country doesn't always mean great cultural similarity. The relationship between Australia and New Zealand has some parallels with that between the United States and Canada - there's a shared language and some very close connections and ties, but there are also a lot of areas where there are quite significant cultural differences. The influence of the Empire and then the Commonwealth ameliorated them in some ways for quite a long time but they are very real.

It has been said many times on this forum that people need to remember that Australia is a collection of six different states, most of which were separate self-governing entities for most of the second half of the nineteenth century. They have different histories and they have different cultures even within Australia. They found enough common cause in 1901 to federate into a single nation, but they are still very different in many ways even today.

And when it comes to New Zealand... let me just quote from Section Six of the Australian Constitution (which began life as a bill of the British Parliament):

The Commonwealth shall mean the Commonwealth of Australia as established under this Act.

The States shall mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia, and South Australia, including the northern territory of South Australia, as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth, and such colonies or territories as may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States; and each of such parts of the Commonwealth shall be called a State.

There were seven colonies that could have become Australian - New Zealand, even in 1900, regarded itself as distinct enough and separate enough that it chose not to affiliate with the others. Even then its culture was distinct enough from the other Australasian colonies, to want to remain separate.

And it's remained so.

New Zealand tends to be more 'progressive' and 'social democratic' than Australia on many issues. It's much closer to being a welfare state than Australia. Australia was founded as a convict colony (or at least the original colonies of Australia were) and a healthy disrespect for government authority still permeates the nation. New Zealand was founded largely as a settlement of devout free settlers, who regarded the government as their benefactor to be respected and obeyed. I am, of course, oversimplifying.

But whatever the differences - we are brothers. We may not always think the same as those across the Tasman, but we'll stand with each other and if need we'll die with each other. When Australia needs help, the Kiwis are normally the first to offer a helping hand - and vice versa.

 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 27 2013, 5:52 PM 

Hi Doctor Dominum, and welcome back. Thank you for this very concise and informative synopsis, as it explains a lot.

Where you say, "it seems to me a Canadian could be more aware than most of the fact that geographical proximity to another country doesn't always mean great cultural similarity." Of course I am aware of these things! happy.gif one only needs to look internally to our country. Quebec handles things substantially different versus the rest of Canada (for example, they have some "need" to administer their own pension plan, whereas the rest of us have a Canada Pension Plan). There are shades of gray in all these things.

But, where you may disagree with me, is on the point of PCP bans. I personally view this as a shift to an ideological extreme whereas others may view this as just another difference. So the point being: the difference in the attitudes in New Zealand vs Australia must be extremely divergent whereas, while the USA, Canada (and Quebec inside Canada) differ on various cultural points, we generally live within the same ideological realm. If that makes any sense?

    

 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 27 2013, 8:02 PM 



another Lurker,

I never suspected you were guilty of anything ......but knowing your love and enthusiasm for all things pan European, I guessed you wouldn't want to be left out whenever there is a chance to wave the ( European ) flag ,and sing in unison !!!!!
Here are Schiller's lyrics for you to sing along with !
Alle Menschen werden Brüder

Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein;
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!
Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!

Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brüsten der Natur;
Alle Guten, alle Bösen
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur.
Küsse gab sie uns und Reben,
Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod;
Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
und der Cherub steht vor Gott.

Froh,
wie seine Sonnen fliegen
Durch des Himmels prächt'gen Plan,
Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn,
Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.

Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
Brüder, über'm Sternenzelt
Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt!
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-WF0PVi2FA

I wonder why the Latin version is favoured here ?

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 27 2013, 9:22 PM 

A couple of comments to HH, but as I said, I think the conversation has, unfortunately, moved beyond certain points when I was unable to devote any time to it.

The second, and more salient conclusion (it may be right or wrong, but it is my opinion) is that CP is most effective for children up to the age of about 12. Thereafter, they become sufficiently amenable to reason (several child-psychology books generally mirrored this statement) such that other methods gain effectiveness, while at the same time, the risks of unintended harm from CP begin to rise.

You probably won't be surprised that I disgree.

Are adolescents more amenable to reason than younger children? Yes, but they are also more likely in some ways to suffer a 'failure of reasoning'. Teenagers are almost as intelligent as adults in many ways, but they are tremendously more likely to 'do something dumb'. This is why they are at such risk when operating motor vehicles, for example - it's quite clear (from the American experience) that a typical 16 year old is perfectly capable of learning to drive. It's also quite clear that at that age, they are also prone to making stupid and dangerous decisions behind the wheel.

Where corporal punishment is useful with adolescents is in those cases where reason fails them. It's fairly rare that a teenager who is thinking rationally at the time, commits any significant act of misbehaviour. When it happens, it's because they've left the path of reason.

Remember - in most cases, unless something is seriously wrong, most adolescents behave most of the time. That means that when they misbehave, you're not looking at their typical mindset. If you're dealing with an adolescent who is misbehaving a lot, there are probably issues involved that mean punishment, of any sort, is not likely to be the best solution to whatever is going on. Where punishment is useful, is with those who normally do the right things and occasionally make decisions that take them off the rails.

As for the idea that the risks of harm from corporal punishment begin to rise with older adolescents, I honestly find it very difficult to find any evidence of this, at least with regards to boys, in reliable research - plenty of claims that it is so, but nobody seems to be able to cite the evidence they are relying on when they make these claims. But what I would say is that any punishment carries risks, and what concerns me most is that when corporal punishment is singled out as risky, it often seems to lead to a conclusion that other forms of punishment are not risky and they start to be used carelessly. I think any punishment should be used with care, and attention being paid to risk factors, and I believe that if that is done, corporal punishment is unlikely to be any more risky than any other form of punishment - and that, in many cases, because people are more likely to be careful in using corporal punishment than other forms of punishment, it can actually wind up being far safer, because the others are not being used carefully.

There's also the factor - and this is a very important one in my view - that if an 11 year old is exhibiting serious misbehavior (of the type typically exhibited in families and schools - here I am expressly not talking about children and adolescents with genuine problems like oppositional defiant disorder or conduct disorder, or those who have crossed the line into criminal behaviour), you still have years to find solutions to that. With a 15 year old, you've got much less time, and with a 17 year old, even less. The lack of time doesn't, by itself, mean corporal punishment is appropriate, but there are occasions where it is part of the reason why it may be. In the type of school system we have here in Australia, going off the rails for even a few weeks at the age of 16 or 17, can have devastating long term consequences for an adolescent that would not have mattered much at all if they'd happened a year earlier - and would not matter at all if they happened a year later. When I've found myself using corporal punishment with boys of that age, that's often been a major part of why it's being used. Are they amenable to reason? Sure - and I'll try that, and if it works, a lot of the time, there's absolutely no need to punish them. But if there's been a 'failure of reasoning', it may continue after the act, and if there aren't serious issues involved, the quick solution may be the best solution.

But, where you may disagree with me, is on the point of PCP bans. I personally view this as a shift to an ideological extreme whereas others may view this as just another difference. So the point being: the difference in the attitudes in New Zealand vs Australia must be extremely divergent whereas, while the USA, Canada (and Quebec inside Canada) differ on various cultural points, we generally live within the same ideological realm. If that makes any sense?

Yes, it does, and I'm not really in a position to judge if the differences between Australia and New Zealand are greater, than those (say) between the USA and Canada. But there are, I think, a few issues that may be relevant here.

I believe Australia has a stronger conservative party (actually the coalition of the Liberal/National Parties) than New Zealand - and for that matter in comparison to the UK. It's hard to make comparisons with the US parties as there are specific issues in American politics that don't have much relevance here, and I don't know enough about Canadian politics to make a comparison), but the fact is, about half the time, Australia has genuine conservative governments and genuinely (albeit fairly mildly) socialist governments at both our state and federal levels. The country also contains a strong socially conservative base which has a lot of power and influence. From the Australian perspective, New Zealand is a fairly left wing country.

But - in terms of the idea of a parental corporal punishment ban in Australia, I actually don't think it would be that hard for that to happen at least in certain states - provided it was done the 'right way'.

What do I mean by that? Simply, it would have to be done by Acts of the (state) Parliaments, without a perception of undue 'foreign' influence.

If the High Court of Australia made some sort of similar ruling on corporal punishment to that made a few years ago by the Supreme Court of Canada, while I think the laws would change (because the High Court certainly has the powers to make such a ruling), I think there would be outrage and resentment across Australia. A similar decision passed by a state Parliament, however, would be reasonably accepted.

But a government would have to be in a very secure position electorally, to be willing to use up political capital over such an issue, because it would be electorally unpopular.

I could see a Labor government doing it near the beginning of a term where it had a solid majority and a few years for the controversy to die down. At least I could in some states.

Why not the Federal government? Because it's currently a state issue - the laws that allow for corporal punishment are state laws in every state except Victoria (in Victoria, and also in the Australian Capital Territory, parental corporal punishment is legal under common law - there are no Acts of Parliament that say it's legal - in all the other states and the Northern Territory, there are explicit authorisations for parental corporal punishment built into Acts of Parliament). The Federal Government is very limited in its ability to override state law unless it uses powers designed to enforce international treaties - so any interference by the Federal Government would be based on foreign influence, and Australians generally don't like overseas bodies trying to change our laws.

If a ban is passed, as I say, it will almost certainly come from a Labor government with a solid majority, and a conservative government is unlikely to reverse it, when they next take office - quietly ignore it, and not worry too much about enforcing it, if they can, but not actually change it. So I can see it happening, in at least some states. Certainly more limited restrictions (like those in Canada) are quite plausible.

 
 
KK

Australia & New Zealand

February 28 2013, 12:37 AM 

New Zealanders like to believe that we are very different and rather more civilized than Australians. Notwithstanding this, many Kiwis have moved to Australia in recent years. This has increased the average IQ of both nations.

Corporal punishment was banned in all New Zealand schools from 23 July 1990 by the Education Amendment Act 1990 . SCP was in decline for the decade or so before this date.

SCP was in the main moderate and well regulated, judged by the expectations of the time. SCP provided a standard or model for parents, when they were children, as to what was appropriate for children of different ages. In the absence of such standards, the only guidance parents had was their own experiences at the hands of their own parents.

SCP peaked around age 14. Boys of this age are still the most frequently in trouble at school.

The Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 removed the legal defence of "reasonable force" for parents who smacked their children. The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment.

The hope is that if it is illegal to smack children they are less likely to be bashed or murdered by the drunk or drugged. Feral children of feral parents and grandparents are the most at risk.


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 2:36 AM 

Hi Doctor Dominum,

On the "adolescents more amenable to reason than younger children" issue, I read your points and can't find any major disagreement in your presentation. I have been accused (by Colin Farrell for example) of putting undue weight into, or been affected by, the opinions of people like prof. Van Yelyr who are narrowly preoccupied with the "psychological-sexual linking with punishment of the buttocks". However, I must concede that the strongest opinions on child-rearing come from people who have never had a child, nor even been in the proximity of one. Thus, I feel equally qualified in speaking of adolescents since I do not have one yet wink.gif But seriously, with lack of real evidence this may be more of an opinion, but a variety of alternative methods supposedly "so very effective" are currently useless to me, but I do think they stand a much better chance of success by adolescence. Since I cannot empirically prove or disaprove, I'll have to leave this at that.

You've picked up on one of the conundrums in this genre. First, I fully agree with the statement " that any punishment carries risks", and therefore such risks are not unique to CP per-se. I would go further and say it is not the punishment which causes unintented harm, it is invariably the inappropriate, incompetent or otherwise incorrect delivery of it, where the risk of damage lies. (...this and what's next are topics I have written about so I can easily cite sourced on if wanted).

So the obvious solution is that if any punishment carries risk, then no punishment should ever be used. Of course researchers like Marzano (Marzano, Robert J, What Works in Schools: Translating Research into Action, Alexandria VA, 2003) through realtime experimentation in actual school environments (Echler's scale of environments, from reactive to lunatic fringe) has shown that the optimum efficacy was in a system that equally balanced reward and punishment, and the further progressive the methods became (no punishments allowed) the worse the outcomes; the worst was the lunitic fringe approach, which intentionally ignories the behaviour expecting it to eventually go away.

The inability to effectively alter serious or antisocial behaviour also causes long term harm to the individual (the other side of the one-sided punishment-causes-harm argument) ...by reinforcing it or abetting it, and this negatively impacts society as a whole.

____________________________________________________

Thank you on the clarification on the pathway any possible PCP ban in Australia would have to take. TheStates having these powers is different than how we handle it so I appreciate the explanation. In Canada, this falls under the Criminal Code (Sec.43) and is therefore clearly federal jurisdiction, and something a Supreme Court Ruling could impose; not provincial jurisdiction.

 

    

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 3:10 AM 

Hi KK, I appreciate your insight. please don't misunderstand my motives ofr bringing uo th eNZ/AU comparison. Just from someone who does not know the ins-and-outs, the perspectives from natives of a country are most valuable.

It seems the typical human condition, a rash emotional response to a situation rather than a well-considered one. These responses, in many unrelated areas, always have the outcome of removing something of utility from the vast majority of responsible people rather than dealing directly with the irresponsible ones.

I take your comments "The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment" very seriously. I assure you, as a typical and rational person (I think wink.gif ) can readily recognise the difference between judiscious correction and overt abuse, and I would not be so quick to acquit!

What (in my world) should have happened was a clear set of specific guidelines enacted, so that any judge or jury could quickly see that lines were overstepped. That appeared to be too much work so better to ban the whole affair, to what I believe will be the empirical detriment to, not only the parents but society at large (and yes, I have produced empirical figures to back that one up).

"The hope is that if it is illegal to smack children they are less likely to be bashed or murdered by the drunk or drugged". I wonder what the colour of the sky is on the planet this person lives on? Do they seriously expect anyone in a highly impaired state to consider what laws there might be? We are now giving lengthy prison terms to people who drink-and-drive and kill someone - yet they simply do not consider these consequences when they're in that altered state. Not that it changes anything but just my thoughts...

 


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 3:48 PM 

So where does all this tie in with SCP? There is a lesson that can be learned from our own SCP bans that relates directly to those PCP bans, particularly in the EU. From the 1960's through the 1980's there was a definitie shift in the general attitude of educators on how to teach, how to discipline, etc. The result was, in very many cases, the educators removed the strap from their schools voluntarily, prefering to use other methods. Then, especially in school board Bans that occurred in the mid to late 1980's, it tended to be a non event since most of the schools no longer had a strap in them, and the ones that did used it quite rarely. That's why, by the 1990's we only had about 3 boards left (of over 100 in Ontario) that didn't already abolish SCP, and this explains why it was a non-issue for the province. Hence Ontario never banned as a province, they just saw no need for it since the practice had pretty much died out anyway. In short, The number 1 reason that our SCP bans came about was that the majority of educators no longer supported it.

This is an important lesson to PCP bans. In my opinion, the wrong way to do it is simply make a law and impose it, and thus criminalize what had been normal parental behaviour for over 5,000 years, and leaving parents in a vacuum. For something so well-entrenched, I would think it takes at least a generation to change attitudes significantly. Thus, the right way to do it is by setting clear and limited guidelines, but not banning it initially. Then, there should be a very visible and continual education campaign in the media (as was done with changing attitues on smoking, for example) to change attitudes and show the citizens better, workable and practical alternatives. Done properly, those new approaches will become the norm, and like in the SCP situation described above, the old ways will simply die out. Once most poeple neither support it or use it anymore, it will be become much easier to ban it, with little pushback or adverse effects. That would be my take on this.

KK, do you know if such campaigns ran (or are running) in the media? or was it just an edict and that was that?

    

 


 
 
Jenny

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 6:25 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney

You say:
I would not have characterised any of my teachers as oppressors, but I struggle a bit with the concept of a "pack leader". My recollection was of something in between - always a clear hierarchy and authority, with CP available but not used often.

Obviously I can't comment on your teachers, because I don't know anything about them, nor how you viewed them but the criteria you mention are not the determinants.

Whether teachers are "pack leaders" or "oppressors" is not determined by whether they use CP nor how strict they are. One of the strictest teachers in my school (an RE teacher) didn't use CP herself as far as I know (I was never in one of her classes so I'm not completely sure) but I would classify her as an oppressor. I would also classify my English teacher, probably the softest teacher in the school, as an oppressor.

My TD/Metalwork teacher however, was definitely a pack leader, despite being very strict in the workshops and using CP very effectively for quite minor misbehaviour there. When a few of us were "messing about" by detonating safety matches on an anvil, we were taken out to the corridor and slippered for it. Elsewhere, however, he would turn a blind eye to minor misbehaviour and speak up for us if we were caught by other teachers. He didn't even confiscate the matches and it wouldn't surprise me if he let us keep them because he thought we might need then for fag break time.

Both oppressors and pack leaders control the class ("pack"). The difference is that pack leaders support, even serve, the class and its members whereas oppressors expect the class to serve them.

The different roles are clear in this incident involving Prof N. More details of the incident can be found here. Essentially, Mojo's headmistress considered a school social event (known in many circles as a "p**s up") took priority over Mojo's meeting with a professor at a university, a meeting that Mojo had previously told the school about. She wasn't told to avoid any particular days and it was only after she made arrangements that she was told she couldn't go. That's a clear sign of an oppressor.


 
 
KK

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 7:41 PM 

HH:

Please don't misunderstand my motives for bringing up the NZ/AU comparison. Just from someone who does not know the ins-and-outs, the perspectives from natives of a country are most valuable.


I had no objection. Few Australians think often about their smaller neighbour compared with the reverse. I believe the same applies with the USA and Canada.

_______________________________

HH:

I take your comments "The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment" very seriously. I assure you, as a typical and rational person (I think happy.gif) can readily recognise the difference between judicious correction and overt abuse, and I would not be so quick to acquit!


In law, juries are the only arbiters of what constitutes "reasonable force". I think their judgement was sound and an accurate reflection of the views of responsible citizens. Bashers and murderers were found guilty.

_______________________________

HH:

Do you know if such campaigns ran (or are running) in the media? or was it just an edict and that was that?


The ban on PCP was imposed with little or no attempt to educate parents on how to do without. I do not think this mattered too much for most parents as they are developing their own techniques. The feral parents would not have been reached by even the most intense campaign.

Nowadays, because of the extraordinary means used to promote products and services of little or no inherent merit, it is almost impossible to get important information heard.


In 2011, there was a non-binding referendum on the issue that asked a very strange question, viz. "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?" Some 87% voted "no" but nothing much happened as a consequence of the referendum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_citizens-initiated_referendum,_2009

The pro-spankers included the religious right and those who considered their children as chattels as well as many ordinary parents.


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 28 2013, 8:16 PM 

Hi KK, thank you for that highly interesting referendum! while I agree that the wording was not optimal, it appears there is still 87% parental support, which may be at odds with your statement "I do not think this mattered too much for most parents as they are developing their own techniques".  

The 2007 ban said "Corporal punishment is unlawful in the home. The Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act (2007) repeals the legal defence for the use of reasonable force by way of correction in section 59 of the Crimes Act (1961)." Source

...but went on to say "The law also explicitly recognises standard police practice of exercising discretion as to whether or not to prosecute in very minor cases where there is no public interest in proceeding" which really means that while the law exists, unless there is come clear evidence of physical abuse, it's unlikely that charges will be laid. So as you said, this is designed to be able to prosecute and convict where egregious abuse had sometimes been acquitted by shielding under the former "reasonable force" laws.

This makes me conclude that PCP is probably still widely practiced... an indeed, (same source) "In a 2012 poll of 500 parents of children under 12, 44% said they had not smacked their children since the 2007 law change which prohibited all corporal punishment of children: 29% said they had smacked rarely, 21% occasionally and 1% frequently." (Reported in New Zealand Herald, 2 April 2012)

It'll be very interesting to follow developments here over the next decade.  


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 2:29 AM 

Hi prof.n, apologies for not repsonding to your post on feb 26, 11:30pm.

I had intended to comment on your last statement, "Meanwhile Scotland, the country that for more than a century abused its children far worse with the tawse than other area of Britain , will continue to fine or imprison anyone who has the temerity to slap their child in the street." Really? It would be interesting if there was a recent news article or something that can be quoted to illustrate this. I don't doubt what you say - there seems to be a propensity of overcompensating whenever there is a change in social custom.

It raises another point (beyond that Scotland can now be removed from my list of family vacation options lest there is an inadvertent slip of the hand). The real point is: moral/ethical conduct, or whatever you may wish to call it, has nothing whatsoever to do with the law. The Dutch may enjoy smoking marajuana in the street in Amsterdam, but if they visited here and did that, they'd be arrested PDQ. A parent here may give their child's seat an inadvertent smack in public, but try that in Amsterdam and you'd be arrested.


 
 
KK

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 3:12 AM 

HH quoted:

"The law also explicitly recognises standard police practice of exercising discretion as to whether or not to prosecute in very minor cases where there is no public interest in proceeding."


The police can have considerable difficulty exercising discretion when the law is controversial. Rather than getting involved in controversy they are inclined to let the court decide. This has happened with dubious rape allegations and when passionate anti-spankers make virulent complaints about minor incidents. The defendant is damaged even if the case against him is dismissed by the court.

 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 4:23 AM 

Hi KK, your point is well taken. I agree that police are not in the business of making such judgement calls for fear of making an incorrect one and possible negative repercussions... "best to arrest" and let the courts sort it out.

"The defendant is damaged even if the case against him is dismissed by the court", Until (if your civil system works that way) someone reciprocates by suing the original complainant for defamation, reputational damage, malicious prosecution and intent with forethought to cause harm. Our civil system is increasingly aligning with our American neighbours (spelled "neighbors" in the USA happy.gif  ). Civil litigation has it's downfalls, but it does make people think twice before embarking on purely vengeful activity to prove a point through depraved indifference to others.


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 1:28 PM 

Hi Jenny

Thank you kindly for trying to explain to me the concepts of oppressor and pack leader. Certainly I can understand the Mo Jo HM as an oppressor. However I cannot grasp how the softest teacher in the school is also, rather than just a poor teacher.

I am still struggling to relate this to my own high school teachers. My high school memories are rather bland - most teachers were reasonable except on a bad day. Some were better teachers than others, or at least I found them so. However there would have been zero tolerance of defiance or insubordination.

Where I really did meet oppressors and pointless rules was in the Army (part time) which I did as an alternative to National Service and Vietnam. Whilst most NCOs were OK there were a small number of truly obnoxious characters - no teacher came close.

My TD/Metalwork teacher .... I envy you learning Metalwork though I guess being in a co-ed school made it easier. I regret that cooking was not even considered for a boys school in NSW in the 1960s. It is now universal, popular and taught by a former chef.

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 6:48 PM 

Oliver Sydney. Many of my classmates who served in Vietnam combat are now ones who in retrospect wished they had followed your path. Some were predisposed to serve with the Peace Corps even before the war. Nothing wrong with being a part timer to avoid combat just look at President George W. Bush.

I try to stay away from politics. Americans are divided on many issues other than SCP and focussing on those issues have generated more heat than light. After the tragic shooting in Newtown Connecticut on December 14, 2012 we had this take from Renee on December 22, 1912.

CLICK

Peace Corps? Gimme a break! That's another means to just dodge the draft. FORGETABOUTIT!


 
 

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2013, 9:12 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney

My metalwork never got off the ground. I am really 'ham fisted' 'clumsy' to an extreme........off the scale at one end with verbal reasoning , off the scale at the other with practical craft !!!! My craft teacher drew a line with me during woodwork and asked me instead of progressing to metalwork, where he genuinely though I might cut my own hand off 'accidentally' ,to supervise the 'thick'stream mixing concrete posts for the refurbishment of the rifle range. It worked ......a bit like Jack Sprat and his wife..... I could read plans , they wouldn't or couldn't .....I couldn't mix concrete without getting it all over myself, or cut wood without grave risk to my digits : they could !!!!!

As for insubordination ...... I was once with a group of friends accused of such a sin , I remember replying,' I wouldn't myself agree it is insubordinate , but even if I grant you that , you must agree , Sir, its very polite insubordination as these things go ' .. that was another time my house master was lost for words

Vietnam , I remember protesting on the streets round Grosvenor Square.........but that's another story.

 
 

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 2 2013, 12:15 AM 

Hi American Way and Prof.N

We are off topic so briefly. The Vietnam War and conscription (the draft) changed Australia in many ways and I am sure had a massive impact right through to schools. My decision to join the CMF (P/T army) was largely pragmatic, as I could both earn money and do my National Service. Like many from lower income families my attendance at university was dependent on a government scholarship which paid the fees and included a living allowance. It was made clear that this scholarship could be jeopardised by protest activity.

One question in the psychological test to join the CMF has always puzzled me.
"Do you sometimes feel different from other people?"
You could only answer Yes or No. I forget my answer but I obviously passed. What was the correct answer ?

 
 
Jenny

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 2 2013, 3:40 PM 

Hi Oliver Sydney

Certainly I can understand the Mo Jo HM as an oppressor. However I cannot grasp how the softest teacher in the school is also, rather than just a poor teacher.

Perhaps "softest" wasn't the best adjective to use. I classified my English teacher as an "oppressor" because that seemed to be her approach ("her against us"), she just wasn't very good at it. In the same way, over the two years I was in her English class, she didn't manage to teach any of us any English. Nevertheless, she was still considered an English teacher.

Her mistake was to adopt the position of "oppressor" without being prepared to enforce her will by whatever means were available. It's the same mistake a lot of teachers made when SCP was abolished. They had relied on it (or the threat of it) so much that they found it difficult to adapt so tried to continue using the old-fashioned oppressive methods without the old-fashioned tools necessary.

There can be such things as "benevolent dictatorships" so teachers in the role of "oppressor" aren't necessarily evil. They just tend enforce petty rules for the sake of them and consider "the school" more important than the students. They're the ones who believe students "belong" to the school, to be used for the benefit of the school - viz. Mojo's HM.

I find it difficult to understand the mentality of such teachers. A school is supposed to be a provider of educational services. In the same way, my GP is a provider of medical services. If a student belongs to a school, to be used as the school sees fit, then surely a patient must belong to a GP's practice/health centre to be used in a similar manner.


I envy you learning Metalwork though I guess being in a co-ed school made it easier.

That is one of the many benefits of co-education, a much wider range of subjects can be made available. Due to sex stereotyping, not many girls' schools would have had well equipped workshop; nor would many boys' schools have facilities for teaching cookery or needlework. A co-ed school has both so there's no excuse for refusing to allow girls to do metalwork or boys to do cookery.

The single-sex advocates claim that students wishing to study subjects only provided the the opposite sex school can attend lessons in those subjects at that school. That, however, weakens any argument in favour of single-sex education. If single-sex education is better (which I dispute), sending girls to a boys' metalwork class means the boys receive an inferior standard of teaching. The same applies, of course, to sending boys to a girls' cookery class.

In practice, single sex schools could (and did) prevent students taking subjects "unsuitable" for their sex simply by claiming the school didn't have the facilities. They were even able to do this after the Sex Discrimination Act became law whereas co-ed schools couldn't without potentially facing legal action.


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 10 2013, 5:39 PM 

Manchester State Industrial School old fashioned medicine for young female miscreants. Whipping cure up to 250 lashes with rubber piping or tubing and relief required by a helpful assistant. Water cure with garden hose on full blast into the face "to sort of strangle them." There was also the more conventual "dungeon treatment." What makes it particularly distressing was these were teenagers and this was not ancient history. 1930 means some of these cured girls could very likely be alive. Eye catching choice of word "bares" in headline.

CLICK

Charles S Emerson in new story was a bit of a philanthropists so he left money to honor his brother. This is Emerson park in Milford, New Hampshire. A little levity may be of some avail after such a story.

http://nhlions.org/milford/UglyDogContest3.pdf


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 23 2013, 3:56 AM 

In 1866, at the Allston Grammar School in Cambridge, a major case of corporal punishment was addressed by the school committee.  A teacher had struck a girl named Josephine Foster on the hands 15-20 times with a whip.  The teachers explanation was that she had been whispering and had been acting so disorderly that she had to be held down by another teacher and the principal.  Mr. and Mrs. Foster felt that this brutal act of punishment was unnecessary and they brought the case to trial.   In the end, corporal punishment was not abolished and the case was closed, but this was the first time people had spoken out against corporal punishment.  This shaped a major turning point in the way teachers treated their students.

CLICK

The first two links incorrectly mention male teachers whipping the girl. But as reliable as any news coming from Australia about 17-year-old girls and corporal punishment that can be expected in 2013 from Mrs BB.

CLICK

CLICK

Now from the states.

The Rhode Island Schoolmaster, Volume 13.

CLICK

Dr. Morrill Wyman's response I already posted. This was at the same time as Englishwoman Domestic Magazine was publishing about female corporal punishment as also already posted.

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Just FYI my resource.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

April 10 2013, 4:16 PM 

Pro versus Con on SCP in Boston is rather early in our history 1885. A little girl in his school on hearing that there was a chance that corporal punishment in the schools, ejaculated - "Won't it be nice; we'll raise Ned."

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

April 11 2013, 2:18 AM 

An excellent source for earlier materials about school corporal punishment is the Boston Evening Transcript 1888. Boston was an established city with schools of some size. Here is an interesting debate for and against school corporal punishment. Two centennial milestones within minutes.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

May 11 2013, 8:29 PM 

This is an interesting anti-SCP stipulation is a will. I'll be glad to give all my money, but you mustn't spank the school kids! What makes this story even more remarkable and compelling is that it comes from Arkansas in 1929.

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2013 still swatting. I am sure if Greenwood invested $30,000 in 1929 it sure would come in handy. Why be mercenary? sad.gif

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Another_Lurker

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

May 11 2013, 10:40 PM 

Hi American Way,

Around $408,000 if it had merely kept pace with inflation and not benefited from an investment premium, according to this US inflation calculator.

Mr Alexander was certainly remarkably advanced in his ideas for 1929. It would be interesting to know if CP was indeed abolished in the Public Schools of Greenwood, Arkansas in 1929, and if that situation has been maintained to date. I'll leave that research to an expert like yourself.

I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'll bet the relevant authorities accepted the legacy but displayed considerable ingenuity in legally by-passing and failing to implement the conditions attached to it. That is what frequently happens here when monies are bequeathed to public bodies for specific purposes or with conditions attached to their use. There's no government as corrupt as local government (with the exception of course of our very own 'Your Local Council' happy.gif).

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

May 25 2013, 1:14 PM 

1903. The Outlook for Boys. Third column and last story. Third sentence is The teachers met on Saturday night, ate heartily and then discussed the necessity of whaling bad boys. The necessity of whaling bad boys. The last sentence is prescient. He is safe from the ferule, the switch and the slipper, except within the sacred precincts of his home; and when the police find time they will make rules prohibiting parents from spanking their children.

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1904. Can lick em. First story and first column. But the outlook dims for these wayward urchins.

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American Way

Pondering Pounding

May 29 2013, 3:52 PM 

1893. Boston or New York pondering versus pounding.

Although it too another 80 years for the state of New York to abolish, not so New York City. The comparisons and contrasts of NYC and Boston's 11,000 incidences are mentioned here. Those who use "pounding" efficaciousness even then was consider worthy of pondering.

http://condor.cmich.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15076coll5/id/36878/rec/14


 
 
American Way

Strong Opinions

June 1 2013, 1:11 PM 

Here is a 1925 article on corporal punishment in the school and home. This estimable Forum elicits emotional responses but few can compare to this amusing espousal about corporal punishment. WOW!

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I assume Magistrate Lawrence T Gresser's successful son was the beneficiary of his Daddy's hands by his father's way of thinking. happy.gif

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American Way

Sweet Privilege Witness the Performance of SCP

July 4 2013, 11:35 PM 

1903. May Spank the Scholars The Shamokin school board has decided to grant the teachers the right to administer corporeal punishment during the coming term. The pedagogues of Shmokin were denied that sweet privilege last year but the rule was not a success. This year, however, the teachers are not allowed to spank the youngsters while in the heat of passion, but must wait until after school, and then another teacher must be called in to witness the performance.

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American Way

Spanking Saint?

August 2 2013, 11:00 PM 


 
 
American Way

Disparity in CP advice in early 20th Century

August 11 2013, 3:20 AM 

On being spanked. The amazing thing about this story is that before 1907 some schools had developed sound and similar policies of applying school corporal punishment to what is used today and then you have this article filled with amusing theories musings on the use of corporal punishment.

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Another_Lurker

Re: Disparity in CP advice in early 20th Century

August 11 2013, 4:28 AM 

Hi American Way,

Phew, some controversial stuff in that PDF. You really should have appended a health warning. I mean, just look at this!

On the whole the general rule might be laid down that in case of doubt a girl should not be spanked and a boy should; that is if the boy is of the normal healthy type who would rather fight another boy of his own size than run.

And this!

As for girls, some girls never need to be spanked. They are angelic babies, and they develop into sweet , obedient school girls. When they violate a rule the sense of wrongdoing hurts them more than a spanking.

What planet were those people at The Long Island Daily Star living on in 1907? happy.gif

Also there's this:

As between a dozen strokes with a hickory rod or being made to sit on a bench with a class of little girls who giggled and pointed their fingers at him, any ordinary boy would choose the rod which would last only a few minutes rather than the ignominy which would cling for a week or two.

Now I recognise that one. That's pretty much how they used to keep boys in order in Junior School. Put each of us in a double desk with a girl. And we didn't get the option of CP as an alternative. sad.gif

BTW, I was amazed to find that PDF was editable, although complicated by the justification of the columns. I'd always assumed they were just images of newspaper pages.

 
 
KK

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

August 11 2013, 5:55 AM 

The Star (New York) 11 November 1907

On Being Spanked.

A poll of the, public school principals shown a majority in favor of spanking.
Undoubtedly it would be easier to exclude boys and girls who seem in need of
spanking than to keep them in the schools and attempt to remodel and reform them there.

The boy who has never been spanked is a rarity, says the World. Looking back
upon the experiences of boyhood, the spankings are not unpleasant recollections.

As between being spanked or locked up in a dark closet, almost every boy would
choose spanking. As between a dozen strokes with a hickory rod or being made to
sit on a bench with a class of little girls who giggled and pointed their
fingers at him, any ordinary boy would choose the rod which would last only a
few minutes rather than the ignominy which would cling for a week or two.

An abstract, discussion of spanking involves two quite separate propositions,
one whether the boy or girl should be spanked, and the other as to who should
do the spanking.

On the first of these propositions, the general experience is that spanking
is good for boys. It is the opposite of mollycoddling. A boy is bound to be
spanked some time, and there are many kinds of spanking more painful than a
shingle or a slipper. The Heinzes have just had a severe spanking in United
Copper for which they would be glad to substitute their mother's hand or their
father's razor strap. Mr. Morse and Mr. Thomas have been experiencing a
chastising by the Clearing House committee to which a school teacher's rod
would be a pleasant relief.

Ability to take a spanking profitably and gracefully cannot be too early
acquired. If a boy is sheltered from deserved punishment until he becomes
a man, the rebuffs which he receives from the world at large will fall on
tender skin instead of normal callousness. The boy who has learned to take
the spanking which he deserved and then go out and play with his school
fellows will develop into a man who can face business failure or political
defeat without despondency and make a better fight the next time through
having learned the reasons for his first failure.

In general a boy's parents should do the necessary spanking, preferably
his father, because a father's spankings are more likely to be adjusted
to the necessities of the case than a mother's who is more tender-hearted.
Where the father and mother do their duty the school teacher should keep
his hands off.

Only in cases where the boy's home discipline is defective should the school
teacher be called upon to supply the deficiency. As for girls, some girls
never need to be spanked. They are angelic babies, and they develop into
sweet, obedient school girls. When they violate a rule the sense of wrongdoing
hurts them more than a spanking. Of course, such girls need not be spanked at
all, though by the curious reversal of disposition which comes to many young
women, some most angelic girl babies become quite opposite in their adult years.

Such girls as need spanking should be spanked by their mothers and not by the
school teacher.

On the whole the general rule might be laid down that in case of doubt a
girl should not be spanked and a boy should, that is, if the boy is of the
normal healthy type who would rather fight another boy of his own size than
run. As for the cry-baby boys, their cases require even more careful
consideration than girls.

The candidates who were spanked on Tuesday would not mind it so much if
they had had practice as boys.

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

August 11 2013, 6:11 PM 

That 1911 posting may have been somewhat tongue in cheek.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Disparity in CP advice in early 20th Century

August 11 2013, 9:10 PM 

Hi American Way,

As indeed was my comment on it, although the bit about my Junior School was absolutely true. But at least I was a good boy, and got to share a double desk with a good girl at the back of the class. Not so the bad boys. They had to share double desks with the bad girls at the front of the class. The poor boys were constantly terrified, and I don't mean of the teacher! happy.gif BTW I think the date of the newspaper concerned was 1907, not 1911.



Hi KK,

May I please enquire how you did that? Was it your excellent OCR method which you've been kind enough to describe previously, or direct copy/paste? If the latter I confess I certainly couldn't have achieved such an excellent result without a vast amount of work.

 
 
KK

Optical Character Recognition

August 11 2013, 10:18 PM 

EAL,

I clicked on American Way's hyperlink to the Fulton History PDF which I saved on my hard disk as a PDF.

I then opened the PDF at 300 pixels per inch using Photoshop "lite". This high resolution is not justfied by the quality of the original but it gives large letters that suits my OCR software. Letters need to be at least 20 pixels high to get good recognition. Also, the large image size makes it easier to clean up the image before OCR.

Using Photoshop, I cropped the article from the whole newspaper page, straightened the image to give horozontal text lines, removed a few extraneous marks, and adjusted the brightness and contrast to give a more black and white and less grey image. I saved the result as a JPG.

I applied OmniPage SE4 to the saved JPG. There were quite a few suspect recognitions that needed manual confirmation or correction during OCR processing and a few undetected errors that needed correction subsequently. I use a word processor spell and grammar check to help me find errors.

The only reason I subjected the item to this treatment is because of its date (1907), place (NYC) and mention of various implements including the shingle but not the paddle. You will be aware of my obsession with interest in the origin of the US school paddle.

One of my guiding philosophies is recognition that total effort is reduced when posters post processed or digested info rather than just hyperlinks to sources. The extra work by the poster saves the multiple readers work and thus increases their number.

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

August 12 2013, 12:48 AM 

I'll unearth the hyperlinks and leave the rest to skill laborers. KK as soon as I saw shingle I was going to post it under your thread. Maybe our research compliments each other considering the geographical differences and orientations. happy.gif


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

August 12 2013, 12:48 AM 

I'll unearth the hyperlinks and leave the rest to skill laborers. KK as soon as I saw shingle I was going to post it under your thread. Maybe our research compliments each other considering the geographical differences and orientations. happy.gif


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

August 12 2013, 2:46 AM 

Hi KK,

Thank you for a most comprehensive and interesting description of the OCR technique you used to transform the newspaper PDF into your August 11 2013, 5:55 AM contribution above. I really didn't mean you to go to all that trouble, but I am most grateful that you did.

I was under the impression that these PDFs of old newspapers simply consist of images of the pages, and for the purpose of your excellent technique that is exactly what they appear to be. However, as noted above, I was astonished to find on experimenting that if I download the PDF and open it in the free version of Adobe Reader I can then highlight sections of articles and copy/paste them into text boxes or processors.

The process is by no means simple. It seems impossible to highlight whole articles without portions of other articles suddenly becoming incorporated into the highlighting. The justification and columnar layout of the text is retained, and last but by no means least the magnification used in the Adobe Reader, and the quality of the print in the PDF seem to make a difference to the results.

Here is the beginning of the article, copy/pasted straight out of the PDF into the Message Text box of the posting window

A poll of t h e public school princ
i p a l s shows a majority l a favor a'.
spanking. Undoubtedly it w o u l d toe
e a s i e r to e x c l u d e hoys and g i r l s w ho
s e em In n e e d of s p a n k i n g than to k e ep
them In t h e s c h o o l s and a t t e m p t to
remodel and reform them there.
The b o y w h o h a s never been s p a n k ed
is a rarity, s a y s the World. Looki
n g back upon the e x p e r i e n c e s of
boyhood, the s p a n k i n g s « r e n o t unp
l e a s a n t recollections.
As between being spanked o r l o c k ed
up in a dark closet, almost every boy
would choose spanking. As between
a dozen strokes with a hickory r od
ot being made to s i t on a bench with
a c l ***** of l i t t l e girls who g i g g l e d a nd
p o i n t e d their nngers at b l m , * a n y o r d
i n a r y boy would choose the r od
which would last only a f ew m i n u t es
rather than the ignominy whloh would
c l i n g for & w e e k or two.


Crude, but it is editable text. I'm not clear what is going off here. How can you highlight text on a flattened image suitable for an OCR program such as you use? Usually you can't. It appears that the Adobe Reader is performing some sort of OCR function. Why else would the magnification and the quality of the PDF characters make a difference? Perhaps that is what it is doing. It is a pity it doesn't do it a little better though, it would make things so much easier!

 
 
American Way

Historical Living Classroom

August 30 2013, 4:54 AM 

94-year-old Buford Hartsong. Beckley, WV. I like "target to the audience" comment.

"I liked to have them come up and put their hands on the desk, target to the audience," he said. "I tried to make it so when they got back to their seat, they wiped the tears in their eyes and they hesitated to sit down."

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The dreaded switch.

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The dunce cap worn by a reluctant volunteer.

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Never too big!

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Teacher's rules with identical or similar ones previously posted.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

September 2 2013, 3:34 PM 

1905. Naughty Girl. Evelyn A Very Bad 15-year-old Girl. Paddling didn't work for her.

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It is sad that with their lack of knowledge of health impairments these things ever occurred in the first place. I'm not ruling out that she was willfully defiant but these incidences were far too common. By 15 I would have hoped some knowledge of how the child was during her earlier years would have been a heads up about volitionality and accountability. I'm sure even now students with disabilities rendering the exculpable are being paddled. Look at the disparity.

Age matters. TWP certainly believes it will fade and doesn't need outside interference but the stats would seem that paddling of 17 and 18-year-olds will come to an end in years without one.

Understandably people are slow to come around like prof n whose view on caning and paddling of older students has evolved in a relatively short period of time. I think if prof n administered corporal punishment and seen first hand its impact he would have opposed corporal punishment for that age group he would have come around sooner but he can speak for himself.

If the numbers perdure for decades would some believe it is a matter of a slow learning curve or should a larger entity than a principal or a school board should intervene? It sure would take some of the wind out of the anti SCP opposition.

Teens are being paddled for things less than criminals like chronic tardiness. Would this have happened at her first job if she was given the choice between that or paddling? It's happening as I type. Should Nancy have been given a choice even to the point of examining her instrument of correction? Was the days prior to the paddling worse than the paddling judging by her face in the second link? The third link provides a true account that was made into a movie. Should naughty teenage girl being treated like a child? Should one at that age even be thinking it's OK to be spanked for a crime fully clothed?

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Another_Lurker

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

September 2 2013, 10:00 PM 

Hi American Way,

What would I do to keep my mind active if it wasn't for you? happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

Your first link above is to a .jp2 file. Now I don't think it is unfair to say that the JPEG2000 format didn't exactly set the world on fire. I haven't got any software on board to open this format, and indeed in the 12 years since the format was introduced I think this is the first time I've encountered one!

As I don't want to download software specially to open the above file I've simply linked direct to page 7 of the issue of the Morning Oregonian for 28 December 1905, which looking at the .jp2 file with a hex editor I see to be the relevant newspaper page. Here is the link. The report on the behaviour of 15 year old bad girl supreme Evelyn Mensor of Seattle and her misadventures at the Chehalis Reform School is to be found at the bottom of column 5, under the horse racing results. It is a rather more complete report than the one in your second link above, which is from the following day's issue of the paper.

Reading of her record and why she was sent to the Reform School I'd say that Ms Mensor was an eminently suitable candidate for the paddle! I just don't think that the harassed Superintendent Reed and his over-burdened staff used a big enough paddle often enough and hard enough! happy.gif

A few days later Ms Mensor also featured in Centralia News Examiner (formerly the Chehalis Examiner) for 5 January 1906. This says that before being put in jail in Seattle prior to transfer to the Chehalis Reform School she was examined for insanity but found to be sane.

As for your picture links to the two tiny pictures of Nancy Guillen, what on earth is the use of a 120 × 90 pixel image? I've told you before, big is beautiful! happy.gif


Now if they'd used a paddle like that on Ms Mensor at the Chehalis Reform School, who knows, she might have gone home a reformed character. After all, look what it did for Nancy! wink.gif

 
 
KK

That naughty girl report

September 2 2013, 10:58 PM 

[linked image]

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

October 5 2013, 9:19 PM 

Children have their say 1910 on corporal punishment. My winner is Beatrice Cheda, Whipping Hardens the Heart. I'm sure others would agree that irrespective of your views she is a remarkable 10-year-old. I wonder how many in the "text generation" can write as well? Maybe the teachers too should be getting paddled here for demanding less today, being paid a fortune and blaming the families. It nauseates me when they complain as taxpayers work twice as hard (about 365 days to 180 days) and more hours. Teachers arriving 15 minutes before the bell and clearing out 15 minutes after leaving all but a few cars in the parking lot is not all that uncommon. That's not or at least shouldn't be the American Way.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1910-05-22/ed-1/seq-4/print/image_681x648_from_2537%2C4321_to_4727%2C6406/

Others receiving awards.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1910-05-22/ed-1/seq-4.pdf


 
 
American Way

A Country School 1886

October 11 2013, 8:36 AM 

Note the second column penultimate article. Will the paddle soon be history? Will school tours soon feature the paddle like the dunce cap in the south? Doesn't Connecticut sound like the last enclaves of districts where the paddles still swing and where people think that like the paddle the pendulum will swing?

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

November 3 2013, 5:54 PM 

Confessions of a school master. . Alcott, William A. (William Andrus), 1798-1859.

I think you will find SECTION 12 (Discipline) of this book well written as well as worth reading. It is from page 302 ff. Please let me know what you think.

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A key word to follow the relevant passages pertaining to corporal punishment is rod

On a lighter note, here is a rather unusual alternative to corporal punishment.

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As another access vehicle to the book is found in this link.

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Another_Lurker

Confessions of a School Master

November 3 2013, 8:08 PM 

Hello American Way,

An most interesting find! I have not had time to read much of the book, but one extract caught my eye:

And though I cannot say I believe the rod ought to be much used, yet I consider, with Solomon, that to spare it entirely, in the progress of the education of our citizens, and above all, to proclaim that we will do so, is to spoil them. The rod is one of those things, which should always be ready for use, but seldom or never used ; in the manner of physicians with some of their most poisonous medicines.

How true that is, even today!

Of course if it is a choice between the rod and boxing children's ears or hanging them up by their heels I think the rod is always going to be preferable, even if it means that it is used a little more frequently than would otherwise be the case! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: A Country School 1886

December 15 2013, 4:58 AM 

In the UK with the passing of time without corporal punishment will the strap soon be treated like a barbaric relic? Please don't tell Jenny if they had a gentler strap named Victoria. wink.gif

A lot of people have mentioned the corporal punishment and told me how they even gave the strap a name - Albert!

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A display that includes leather straps used to discipline children hanging on the wall.

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Another_Lurker

Re: A Country School 1886

December 15 2013, 8:01 AM 

Hello American Way,

Hmm, 'country school'? I guess you've never been to Heaton! happy.gif

As has often been recorded here, parts of Newcastle were indeed partial to the strap rather than the cane. Heaton featured in the notorious Heaton riots of January 1976, when schoolgirls, told that the strap used on their male classmates would now also be used on them, ran amok, besieging their school and terrifying teachers and policemen. Well something like that, anyway! happy.gif

The school concerned was a secondary comprehensive school, but doubtless some of the young ladies involved would have been at the Chillingham Road Primary School earlier in their school career. One of your above links records that in the October 2013 exhibition of the history of the Chillingham Road Primary school there was:

A display that includes leather straps used to discipline children hanging on the wall, a wooden desk, inkwells and old photographs of stern school mistresses is a reminder of a very different age of education

If some of those stern school mistresses were from the early 1970s and used those straps on girlish palms they may even have indirectly been responsible for precipitating the Heaton Riots, in that girls so punished in the past would be only too aware of the painful implications of the new regime when it was announced by the Headmaster of their subsequent secondary school!

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

December 15 2013, 12:52 PM 

My response was to the MESSAGE TITLE that had the word "country". I was aware of the riot and knew it was not "country". News about school girl punishment rarely passes my radar screen. happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

December 15 2013, 12:53 PM 

My response was to the MESSAGE TITLE that had the word "country". I was aware of the riot and knew it was not "country". News about school girl punishment rarely passes my radar screen. happy.gif

 
 
American Way

"Spanking" young adult offenders.

February 3 2014, 2:44 AM 

Ontario Jail. April 1920. Excerpts os Spanking Is Revived story. It's not possible to place young men of 17 to 22 over the knee of the slapper "like mother used to." As is the case with Canada the strap was the instrument of correction. No! he is not even stripped. Only the section of the anatomy especially arranged by nature for the purpose of spanking was laid bare. They took their medicine well. It is the outrage to the feelings of the culprit which has the salutary effect. It is declared "they feel like two cents."

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

February 4 2014, 12:30 AM 

This is an addendum to an account of a female pupil, Josephine Foster, being corporally punished in a posting on March 23 2013.

Prior posted.

Corporal Punishment in Beverly and Cambridge, MA: Just, or Just Plain Mean?

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Addendum.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 1 2014, 6:17 PM 

Josephine Foster corporal punishment follow up from above posting.

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Priorly posted here by yours truly. 1869.

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Excerpted. Corporal punishment of marriageable girls.

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Report in good condition available on ebay for collectors. $20.

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American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 22 2014, 10:49 PM 

HH 1949 is a step back in time but what would you account for the Canadian differential in opinions about school corporal punishment? Although forbidden in France for many years prior to 1949 there are many anecdotal accounts where there were more than a few incidences that it was not strictly enforced even to more recent times especially in parochial schools.

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HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 23 2014, 1:49 AM 

Hi AW, an interesting article and an interesting question! I cannot explain this except to say this trend carries through to today.

The first 2 Canadian oublic school boards to ban SCP were both in Quebec ca.1965. Ironically, Quebec was NOT the first provice to ban SCP, BC was in 1973. A total of 7 provinces and territories provincially banned SCP before Quebec did in 1997.

However, polls on the Global initiative site show the lowest support for Cdn PCP today in Quebec, rising in Ontario and rising as you go further into the conservative western provinces (MB, SK, AB) but declining again in the more socialist/welfare province of BC.

Quebec is the only province I know that has prohibited all forms of physical correction (including parental) in it's "Civil Code". But that doesn't mean anything while they're superceded by the Federal Criminal Code sec.43

A majority QC seperatist gov't, as is being anticipted in the upcoming election, may change all that. And if Quebec finally leaves, it may become the first North American CP-ban country! Good for them! but I'll stay here wink.gif


 
 
HH

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

March 23 2014, 2:15 AM 

I should add ... while it is true that SCP was banned in France ca.1887 (but lingerred on in certain settings long long after) I am unconvinced the this heritage has any effect on the opinions of Quebecers. They are their own "nation" and dislike the French probably as much as they dislike everyone else.

Consider that France is one of the "non-compliant" EU countries who told the boys in Brussels "no thanks" and they still allow PCP. Again, last polls I have shows 84% support for PCP in France. Yet, Quebec has the lowest support for it in my country so this really rules out any "heritage" link in my mind.

 


 
 
American Way

Re: Spare Not The Rod Cry The Pedagogues

April 22 2014, 7:31 PM 

The Transit of Civilization from England to America in the Seventeenth Century - Edward Eggleston

An interesting account on the transfer of school corporal punishment between England and the colonies. Just search within the book for "willow" and the relevant passage will come up. The hickory stick was too tempting of an instrument of correction not to be used.

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