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Classics from the Comics

August 11 2010 at 7:28 AM

Dean Clarke 

 
Hello everybody,

I'm still deployed, but thankfully, it is proving to be pretty quiet. I've been working on my book in spare moments and making some progress.

Unfortunately my publisher has just put the kibosh on one chapter of the book. Not their fault - the problem is that the chapter relies very heavily on the ability to reprint certain material and that means needing to negotiate the rights with the copyright holders. And the copyright on these things is, to put it mildly, horribly complicated - in many cases, we simply cannot find out who owns it. It could be those who published it (in most cases it probably is). It could be those who originally produced it. It depends on contracts that have been lost or destroyed, and while copies of these may exist somewhere, we don't have the resources to find them. It also depends on precisely what rights and reprint rights were negotiated and that seems to have varied a lot.

Still, these legal problems also create an opportunity. If I can't share the material gathered for that chapter in the book, why not share some of it online (any lawyers reading this - yes, I am well aware that copyright applies just as much to online reproduction as to reproduction in a book as far as the letter of the law is concerned. I'm also aware that copyright holders are much more tolerant of certain types of reproduction than others. I know what I'm doing).

The chapter in question was going to look at the portrayal of school corporal punishments in British comics of the post war era. Comics like The Beano, Buster, Dandy, Whizzer and Chips, etc, etc, etc - anyone who knows these comics know there were a lot of them, some more long lived than others. These comics were typically released weekly (fortnightly or monthly in some cases) and each issue contained a number of different two page, full page and half page strips. Some of these strips were pure fantasy, or pure nonsense. Others sought to (to a greater or lesser extent) portray everyday life of the children who they were aimed at (often with a bit of a twist - the main character was an almost typical child - with just one or two unusual characteristics). Because they sought to potray everyday life, things that were part of children's everyday experiences were included - including, with some regularity (there were some strips about particularly naughty children for whom it was a feature of almost every strip) physical punishment. It was presented as just part of life. Something that if you misbehaved, you could expect to happen.

This makes it very interesting from an historical perspective because of the insight it does give into children's lives at the times these comics were published.

If children had been deeply traumatised by being caned at school, would it have been treated as the source of such great humour in the comic books being sold for their enjoyment? Personally I doubt it. It was, for most children, in most cases, just part of their everyday lives. Something you dealt with. That you normally deserved, but even when you didn't - well, that happened sometimes.

The comics also reflect stereotypical images. Teachers are often depicted in old style gowns and mortarboards and routinely carrying canes, even in periods when that would have been unusual (at least in most schools). It was the archetype. And it's an archetype that has now been lost.

Anyway, I built up quite a collection of images and strips to use (I wasn't going to use all of them, I wanted to have a good range to choose from), and so now that I can't use them in the book, I thought I'd share them here.

It's up to the people here to decide if they want them to continue. Let me be blunt. If you comment on what you see, I'm more likely to post more of them. I'm not talking about mindless, simple comments either - I think a lot of these strips actually have real value to illustrate points about the way corporal punishment was (or perhaps wasn't) used in British schools. Comments that use them to discuss points of genuine interest would be valuable. Nor am I asking people to comment if they have nothing to say just to get more strips. I'm not expecting comments all the time, or every time, but if I just send them out and there's never any feedback, I have to wonder if I'm just wasting my time. At some stage, I might share a strip that doesn't directly reference corporal punishment if I think it shows something else of relevance to its place in British children's society of the time.

Clear?

OK - to begin.

Two strips from the 1st August, 1970, issue of Cor!!

(Note - this is a 32 page comic - within those 32 pages are 24 separate strips. 3 of these contain scenes of children experiencing corporal punishment - two at the hands of teachers, which I'm sharing, one in which a boy gets it from his father and his scout leader. I'm mentioning this, just because it gives some idea of the prevalence of such punishment in these comics - three strips out of twenty four is certainly not unusual).

The first strip is Whacky. Even the name refers to corporal punishment. Whacky tends to get a lot of it - sometimes deserved, often not. It's just part of his life and the whole strip revolves around how he deals with that reality.

corwhacky01081970.gif

The second strip is Teacher's Pet. Patsy is a girl who wants to be really nice to Miss, her teacher. Too nice. She's annoying. She overdoes things. They cause problems. Sometimes entirely her fault. Sometimes, not. Sometimes she pushes Miss too far.

corteacherspet01081970.gif

 
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American Way

Maybe a new thread

August 11 2010, 8:55 AM 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 11 2010, 9:47 AM 


Hi Dean ,

I hope all is well on the military side of things.

Whats a fascinating series I look forward to seeing more in print. A few bits of perhaps interesting information. The sociology of the media is not an area in which I have much personal expertise, being a long way from my niche in academe, but I do know something of it through contact with a longstanding friend who is a prof in European studies.

It may be about six months maybe a little more ago since he mentioned in passing an article about D.C.Thompson the publishers of the Beano. A truncated version was reproduced in 'This Week' , but as their so called archive lacks the functionality of a search engine I am afraid I can't reference it with the time available . In the article the journalist concerned had worked on putting together an edition of the Beano, but made some detailed observations about the morality and the marketing of the comic.

Apparently in the 50's 60's , 70' etc Thompsons required that characters like Dennis and Beryl always ' got their just desserts'. Crime was not to be allowed to pay ! More interesting was the marketing of the magazines . Strangely it was not aimed at the 'rough , tough boys ' of Bash street , but seen as a moral stabilizer actually intended to deter kids from what in Texas they call ' making bad choices'.The target readership, thus were those children for whom this escapism represented the safety valve, 'what they WOULD so if only they DARE do ' Hence the reason for the required moral ending and just desserts for the culprits!

Of course many of the homes at which Thompaons fancifully aimed the Beano were the very homes, who whilst probably happy to pay the weekly cost , would encourage their offspring to engage in more 'improving' comics like 'The Eagle' . But the mantra continued because, it was suggested of the rather moral 'Presbyterian ' backgrounds of the publishers.He also brought a photocopy of a rather longer and more erudite professional paper making many of the same points.

As his area of interest has included the socio-cultural imperatives of Toni Negri's work and autonomia you might be surprised at him bringing me these articles. But we were together at university..........

Dean I have great sympathy with you on the copyright thing. Many years ago when I was an officer in the Student union , we had a dispute with the University over access to student files. the usual thing, 'secret comments ' , transparency. Anyway it escalated and of course we took the usual action of occupying the senate and V.C.'s offices to make our point, and assess the offending files for ourselves.

During the occupation we issued a 'news sheet' daily. We chose Dennis and Beryl as the character mastheads for this organ, and put out a couple of rather puerile cartoons about university management. One ended with Dennis saying something like ' I wonder what Beryl will say .....see tomorrow's edition ' No one ever found out . D C Thompson's lawyers ( tipped off doubtless by our rather pugnacious VC ( Sorry to say of Aussie extraction!)) issued a 'cease and desist' writ against us that night. Someone clearly didn't have a sense of humor!

Do carry on the excellent series!

 
 
hcj

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 11 2010, 10:03 AM 

If children had been deeply traumatised by being caned at school, would it have been treated as the source of such great humour in the comic books being sold for their enjoyment?

Dean, I think you have got right to the heart of the matter here! We didn't like the experience of being punished at the time it happened, but as is the nature of childhood, it was soon forgotten along with the other bumps, grazes and other unpleasant experiences that were a part of everyday life.

Today children are almost encouraged to dwell on every slight and every unhappiness. It isn't healthy, as human beings we need to look forward and not let past problems ruin our lives. From my own experience of a heartbreaking bereavement, it is something you have to put behind you if you are going to move on.

In terms of the comics, although the Dandy and Beano were from a Scottish publisher, it was most common to see the cane or slipper being used. It is interesting that images of the tawse were rare. Indeed, it was only much later, when I had learnt what a tawse was, that I remembered the odd rare cartoon depiction.

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 11 2010, 11:14 AM 

DEAN


I spent most of my pocket-money between 1958-63 on the weekly fix of Beano & Dandy, later Buster & Hotspur. The latter 2, Buster was short-lived, Hotspur was on the Eagle trail, morally improving, in which athletes & war heroes put Johnny Foreigner in his place-which was behind the English-gallant corporals called Taffy & Jock catered for some of the rest of the UK and usually got shot before the English captain finally wiped out the evil Huns or Japs.

Now there's stereotyping for you. I didn't recognise it as such then, but stopped buying Hotspur when they had a quiz in which Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians was an answer in its' original title.

The Dandy was a bit hit and miss re CP, but it did have Desperate Dan-not only a dead ringer facially for my Dad, but totally barmily surreal. The town where Dan lives, Catcus Gulch, ought to be somewhere in Texas given the way Dan dresses.

But Dan's nephews, Katie & Danny, his Aunt Aggie & everybody else dresses like the Scots' working class of the 1930's! Not only that, the teacher always had a strap for Danny & Katy & never a cane AND Catcus Gulch was the only Texas town I've seen with a regular Dundee Corporation tram service and Corporation lampposts!!!

I remember one episode where Danny puts a tack on Teacher's chair. DD spots this with his super-vision & throws a clod of earth to stop Teacher sitting on it. Dan's so strong it knocks teacher through the wall, so Danny gets one of the strap(on the bum)for placing the tack & six for making Dan trying to save him.

The Beano, by contrast, was bloody spanking-MAD. My icon, Dennis The Menace, shared its' pages AND slipper-happy Fathers with Roger The Dodger and Minnie The Minx, plus the Bash Street Kids, where Teacher started off(in 1954) with cane and strap side by side, but later it was cane only & for girls as well as boys.

Back in 1985, I purchased a whole run of Beanos from 1955 from a shop in London(OK, it WAS Soho, but not that sort of shop!!). Not a week went by without the Big Three already mentioned getting slippered & on one memorable occasion, Roger tries to hypnotize his Dad into doing his Maths homework.

Roger's Dad pretends, gets everything wrong & Roger gets a 12-stroke caning this time. I think Prof might have something there about the moral improvement undertone-cribbing was always a big sin at primary!

And one of those issues from 1955 had 11 comic strips-in NINE someone got spanked or caned-see what I mean re fladge-mad? God, there was even one, Cat & Dog, featuring those 2 animals. Cat misbehaves & gets spanked by the expedient of Master holding a bone in front of Dog, whose wildly-wagging tail has a carpet-slipper tied to it!!!!!!!!

And did the inevitable slippering Dennis got encourage me to behave? NO! I think the hiding-place for the catapult I took to school that I posted before on here tells you it only made me more devious!


Steve

 
 
Jenny

Whacky?

August 11 2010, 1:31 PM 

Those strips brought back memories.

I remember seeing the Whacky strip as a child but I don't remember the character being Whacky. I have an idea it was Roger the Dodger or one of the Bash Street Kids. Does anyone else here remember that strip with a different character?

I have a vague recollection of Teacher's Pet too so I probably read Cor!! when I was younger but I don't clearly remember it: nor any of the characters therein.


 
 
KK

Very interesting and informative - more please

August 12 2010, 8:18 AM 

I am currently involved in a family history project. The names, events and places only come to life when put into context - not so much the big events of history but the everyday. I am sure the same applies to understanding the social history of school CP. Comics were one small but important part of history and the context. They certainly helped normalise school CP for me and made it much less traumatic.

Dean, please post more and keep the chapter in your book if you can.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 12 2010, 12:51 PM 

For those not familiar with Betty and Veronica I have included some information. A recent television show the 70's was loosely based on this popular comic strip.
4 minutes into the video catholic schools are mentioned. My kids were totally freaked out over the excitement of their getting a television with remote control. They didn't watch the Donna Catholic school episode. It's interesting that the boys had a fascination that made it not so innocent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1v_wMUuf4k

From a blog. Subject: Re: How Does "That 70s Show" Compare To The Real 7
Written By: Indy Gent on 06/24/03 at 05:55 p.m.

As a child in the early 70s, miniskirts were still popular. In fact, a lot of the older women started to wear them and looked hotter than the younger gals. The teachers still had the bun hairdo. The burr (or the military cut, as I affectionately called it) was on almost every white boy, and the blacks wore moderately sized Afros. And of course, we still had spanking in school, but most of the teachers did it by hand and the paddle came later. As for weed, that was used from 5th grade on, but thankfully, I never experimented with the stuff. Some students were even using "the Columbian leaf" for their art projects.

Cartoons have often been morphed into something bawdy as in the third link that shows a reddened bottom that may be offensive to some but not pornographic by a long shot. There were no school corporal punishment scene in Archie but Betty and Veronica deserved and received rightly got them at home during the age of the innocence. Clothes were not removed unless you were running for congress as a tea party republican in Las Vegas. Maybe in Catholic Schools of the seventies in Australia but never in front of boys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_and_Veronica_Magazine


Click

Click

 
 

Bob T

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 12 2010, 1:34 PM 

It's good to see you are still alive Dean. I didn't know you had joined the military. I assume you are a commissioned officer. Good luck with the book and keep your head down.

Last I heard you were a new dad, but that's been a few years. Any new additions we should know about?

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 13 2010, 12:21 AM 

Hi Dean Clarke. Great to hear from you and I'm pleased to hear that you are getting at least some opportunity to work on your book. It is sad if the extracts from comics do have to be omitted from the book as judging from the examples you have published in this thread there must be some interesting material available. I had no idea that school CP was so widely used in publications for children. My own juvenile ephemeral reading matter was confined to the Eagle comic and Arthur Mee's Children's Newspaper and I don't recall much CP in either of them! sad.gif

 
 
Declan

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 13 2010, 4:55 AM 

These are only vague memories, so apologies if the details are incorrect.

I think the name of the comic I read was called TV Comic. This featured a strip based on The Milky Bar Kid. In one story , The Milky Bar kid and a girl, both aged about ten I suppose, went on some hike and got lost. When they eventually got home late they were both given across the knee spankings, and I remember the drawings of this quite well, lots of Smacks and ouches! etc.

Another one I recall, possibly also the Milky Bar Kid. involved a school room scene. Someone had done a rude drawing of the teacher on the blackboard. A girl was accused of this and told to come out for a caning. You saw her bending over about to be caned, and you then had to wait till next week to find out what happened.

The following week we see the Milky Bar Kid coming forward and saying it was he that had done the drawing. He was then caned and the girl escaped the cane. Afterwards he was asked by everyone why he admitted to something he didn't do, and he said he didn't want the girl to be caned.

 
 
Ketta

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 13 2010, 6:29 PM 

Comics like these were a private world that we were abosorbed into, children could relate getting into mischief or trouble would often lead to the inevitable at home and school, but what made these comics really great and the characters so popular, despite in nearly every episode bending over for a dose of the cane or slipper, the teachers and parents always seemed to come off worse

Of all the characters that were being regularly slippered, caned and spanked Winker Watson who appeared in the Dandy was the only one that seemed to avoid the cane from his long suffering headmaster Mr Creep,apart from one occasion when he coped six of the best.

It wasn't always the cane or slipper, anything to hand was used, one strip in the Topper Beryl the Peril's dad could be seen drumming a beat on poor Bery's bottom with a set of drum sticks



 
 
Laughing Boy

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 13 2010, 6:35 PM 

"Winker Watson" - I like it!

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 15 2010, 8:00 AM 

Apparently in the 50's 60's , 70' etc Thompsons required that characters like Dennis and Beryl always ' got their just desserts'. Crime was not to be allowed to pay ! More interesting was the marketing of the magazines . Strangely it was not aimed at the 'rough , tough boys ' of Bash street , but seen as a moral stabilizer actually intended to deter kids from what in Texas they call ' making bad choices'.The target readership, thus were those children for whom this escapism represented the safety valve, 'what they WOULD so if only they DARE do ' Hence the reason for the required moral ending and just desserts for the culprits!

Very much so - I'd gathered a fair bit of information on this that backs up what you are saying, and that was part of the focus of this chapter. The characters had to be punished for their misbehaviour, at least most of the time.

One famous strip (which somebody else has mentioned) Winker Watson had as one of its ongoing plots, the fact that Winker always escaped the cane. As mentioned he did receive six of the best once. That was insisted on at that point, because they couldn't have such a popular and admired character never once paying the price for his crimes. I find it amusing when considered they also had strips like Whacky where the hero got whacked whether he deserved it or not - apparently being unfairly punished was fine, but unfairly escaping was not.

Dean I have great sympathy with you on the copyright thing. Many years ago when I was an officer in the Student union , we had a dispute with the University over access to student files. the usual thing, 'secret comments ' , transparency. Anyway it escalated and of course we took the usual action of occupying the senate and V.C.'s offices to make our point, and assess the offending files for ourselves.

What is most frustrating is that the companies have actually done their best. They are prepared to give permission, the problem is, in many cases, records as to owns the copyright have been lost. Some artists signed their copyright over completely, some only for single use, some allowed reprint rights only for certain purposes - and in most cases, the companies no longer know what was signed. And as publishers, rightly, they can't afford to give permission and then find out they made a mistake - it could make people very leary of dealing with them.

 
 


Re: Classics from the Comics

August 15 2010, 8:12 AM 

It's good to see you are still alive Dean. I didn't know you had joined the military. I assume you are a commissioned officer. Good luck with the book and keep your head down.

Hi Bob.

Me? A commissioned officer? No, sir, I work for a living.

I'm a NCO and proud of it. I actually served in the Regular Army after leaving school, and reached the rank of Corporal before transferring to the Army Reserve. I'm now a Sergeant in the Australian Army Reserve. Like a lot of western nations, Australia has had to start deploying reservists more and more in recent years, and I'm currently deployed to the Solomon Islands as part of Operation ANODE/HELPEM FREN - the Australian lead Regional Assistance Mission to the Solomon Islands. It's a peacekeeping mission - a reasonably quiet one at this point.

I have been asked to consider going for a commission and I have considered it but even as a reservist, that's a commitment on a higher scale. I've seen combat in Timor, and I've done two tours in the Solomons - I think I'm doing my duty as it is, and don't feel the pressure to do more.

Last I heard you were a new dad, but that's been a few years. Any new additions we should know about?

We have two now. One getting excited about starting school, one getting excited about being able to run around without falling over anymore - at least not all the time.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 15 2010, 8:14 AM 

I thought this one might add something to the perennial discussions of sex discrimination in education.

corteacherspet13041974.gif

From Cor!!, 13th April 1974.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 15 2010, 7:05 PM 

Teachers Pet. Passive link and maybe consider exiting so as not to navigate an adult content site (spanking toons).

http://spankingtoons.com/toons/tpet2a.html

Dan De Carlo was the artist that drew for the popular Archie Comics. He later went into the innocent seductive magazines just Wiki him if curious.

The drawing over Mr Weatherbe paddling Veronica and Betty previousy linked were not his works nor were Miss Geraldine Grundy, the homeroom teacher, Miss Grundy, seen spanking Betty with a school paddle. The high school Riverdale was the idealized setting of Haverhill MA. It's peculiar that DeCarlo would be pushing the envelope in adult humor where an obviously inferior and sexually more explicit cartoon. DeCarlo passed in 2001 so maybe the artist exposing the bottoms came later. It took chutzpah to imitate it and put it into the content found in the image. Betty looks like she is suffering from childhood obesity since she was paddled by Mr Weatherbe.

Miss Grundy Paddles Betty

 
 

Bob T

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 15 2010, 11:48 PM 

Congratulations on your promotion to Sergeant and a big congrats on the new addition to your family.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 16 2010, 9:10 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

I thought this one might add something to the perennial discussions of sex discrimination in education.

Interesting cartoon strip.

The moral of the story seems to be that girls shouldn't aspire to becoming turners or joiners - they should stick to needlework. (Very cruel to the belonephobes amongst us.) sad.gif That seems to be a strange idea to put over as late as 1974, especially as there appears to be equality in matters of punishment. A misogynistic reaction to women's lib. perhaps?


 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 18 2010, 10:29 AM 

I've jumped on the avatar bandwagon.

I'm posting this one having noticed the thread started the other day about general discrimination in corporal punishment. This one is Ivor Lott and Tony Broke from the 18th November issue of Buster.

BusterIvorLottAndTonyBroke18111978.gif

The Ivor Lott and Tony Broke comic is one of those that quite often ended in corporal punishment (normally of Ivor at the hands of his parents). The basic plot was quite simple - Ivor is very rich, Tony is very poor, and they live next door to each other, and Ivor treats Tony quite badly. Tony generally comes out on top in the end, as he does in this strip.

I find this one very interesting - school corporal punishment (as opposed to parental) was quite rare in this strip.

It is interesting in comparison to the typical caning in the comics. Most canings in these comics tend to be public affairs. In this one, Tony is taken out of the room. I do wonder if part of the reason some of these comics appeared to children was an element of schadenfraude - of enjoying the suffering of others, which might be why the punishments were nearly always depicted as public - something I know did happen in some schools, certainly, but private punishment does not seem to have been rare, but is in these comics.

I also note that Tony is facing a caning for what I would consider a much more minor offence than the one that Ivor only seems to have received lines for (of course, perhaps, Ivor was both caned and received lines... I see no sign of that). Ivor has a rich and powerful father - could that be a reason for less severe punishment that poor, powerless Tony? Of course, other comics do tell us that the Lotts seem to strongly approve of corporal punishment.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 18 2010, 12:59 PM 

In the 1960's to early 1970's there were comics that skirted the line of being adult material. Dan DeCarlo from Archie Comics fame was perhaps the most famous of this genre. It usually involved, as previously mentioned, fantasies of sexual harassment in office with boss and secretary. This is one in that genre but in a school setting.

1960's Comic Genre

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 18 2010, 3:12 PM 

DEAN

Glad to see I'm not alone in the avatar fun!

That Buster strip looks like mid-70's from the cassette recorder. I didn't realise it had gone on so long!

The juxapositon of rich & poor kids comes from Buster's source. It started in 1962/3 with Buster Capp the cartoon kid that launched it, so it was out of The Daily Mirror stable, as he was allegedly Andy & Flo Capp's lad. They are still going strong, by the way, which is probably more than can be said for their offspring.

So, being a good Socialist comic, that's why Ivor gets it regularly! In real life,the opposite would apply, as our current Prime Minister proves.

Tell you what, as well, that Teacher's cane is well out of date for the cartoon's issue date. I doubt a single state school here would have had the handled style by then.

 
 
Jenny

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 18 2010, 5:26 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

I'm posting this one having noticed the thread started the other day about general discrimination in corporal punishment. This one is Ivor Lott and Tony Broke from the 18th November issue of Buster.

There is other, more subtle, discrimination than just the matter of CP.

In the third frame, Ivor Lott is addressed by his first name but, in the fourth, Tony Broke is addressed by his surname. Could that be significant and, if so, in what way? It was not uncommon in some schools for boys to be addressed by surname only and girls by first name. By using addressing him by his first name whilst praising him, it seems clear that the practice of addressing boys by surname (just like prisoners) and girls by first name was intended to alienate boys. The teacher wants to keep "in" with Ivor Lott's parents: to him, Tony Broke is a nobody. Even in the penultimate frame, where the teacher discovers the evidence that he had been cheating, the cartoonist avoids having the teacher address Ivor Lott by name.

We see a similar discrimination in punishments. The teacher is about to cane Tony Broke for a mild insult but gives Ivor Lott 1000 lines for cheating. I agree with you that Ivor Lott's offence was the more serious but whether 1000 lines is a more severe punishment than the cane is debatable. Personally, I'd rather have the cane than 1000 lines but lines are usually considered more lenient than CP. In that respect, Ivor Lott appears to have been let off lightly for a more serious offence. It appears Tony wasn't caned (the cartoonist would have shown rays emanating from his bum if he had been) but Ivor was left with 1000 lines to write so, in the end, Tony did come out on top.





 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 25 2010, 7:51 AM 

In the third frame, Ivor Lott is addressed by his first name but, in the fourth, Tony Broke is addressed by his surname. Could that be significant and, if so, in what way? It was not uncommon in some schools for boys to be addressed by surname only and girls by first name. By using addressing him by his first name whilst praising him, it seems clear that the practice of addressing boys by surname (just like prisoners) and girls by first name was intended to alienate boys. The teacher wants to keep "in" with Ivor Lott's parents: to him, Tony Broke is a nobody. Even in the penultimate frame, where the teacher discovers the evidence that he had been cheating, the cartoonist avoids having the teacher address Ivor Lott by name.

An interesting observation.

Looking through all the Ivor Lott and Tony Brokes I have available (and that's a lot - I have hundreds of these comics on disk as well as in paper form), I think in this case, we're not looking at a class difference in terms of surnames - when Ivor is it trouble at school, he is addressed by his surname as well. He's called Ivor in this strip because he is being praised. Tony is addressed by surname because he's not.

An example of the Lott useage comes in the very first Ivor Lott and Tony Broke strip in the 7th June 1970 first issue of Cor!.

CorIvorLottAndTonyBroke07061970.gif

We see a similar discrimination in punishments. The teacher is about to cane Tony Broke for a mild insult but gives Ivor Lott 1000 lines for cheating. I agree with you that Ivor Lott's offence was the more serious but whether 1000 lines is a more severe punishment than the cane is debatable. Personally, I'd rather have the cane than 1000 lines but lines are usually considered more lenient than CP. In that respect, Ivor Lott appears to have been let off lightly for a more serious offence. It appears Tony wasn't caned (the cartoonist would have shown rays emanating from his bum if he had been) but Ivor was left with 1000 lines to write so, in the end, Tony did come out on top.

I'd certainly agree that 1000 lines was worse than a caning, but in the comics, there's a pretty clear and understood heirarchy that has them as less significant and as the comics rely on shared understandings, that matters here.

In terms of the idea that lines would have been shown emanating from Tony's backside if he'd been caned, not necessarily - while some artists did do that (and other things), those involved with this strip do not seem to do so - they use lines to emphasise a location for other reasons (for example in the strip just posted to draw attention to what Ivor has in his trousers) but steer clear on the pain lines.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 25 2010, 7:51 AM 

Another one to share. This is probably one of the best drawn strips of all. Sometimes the art in British comics is rather poor, but you also get the occasional very gifted artist and one of the best of these was Ken Reid. He wrote a number of well known strips for both the major British comics companies, his two most famous strips were probably Roger the Dodger in The Beano (who he created, but who was also drawn by a number of other artists at different times) and Faceache which originated in Jet and moved to Buster when Buster ate Jet. Because Reid stayed with Faceache (unlike Roger the Dodger who was passed onto other artists) it is his major work, even though Roger the Dodger is a better known and longer lived character. Reid was reportedly actually working on a Faceache strip when he died of a heart attack in 1987. Another artist then did take over for about a year.

Faceache (real name Ricky Rubberneck, although this name was rarely used after the first few comics) was a boy from a working class background with the strange ability to 'scrunge'. He could change his appearance - to appear like some sort of monster, as an animal, or even as another person. Somehow, as the series went on, he wound up at boarding school - I don't know how, there are gaps in my collection of comics covering that period, a rather nasty boarding school with rather nasty teachers. Who most definitely believed in corporal punishment. Faceache is a rather poorly behaved boy, who generally does deserve the punishments he gets, but not always.

BusterFaceache09061979.gif

The thing that stands out for me in this comic (which appeared in the 9th of June 1979 issue of Buster) is the name of the Headmaster - Mr Thrashbottom. Would you name a teacher that now in any work of fiction - well, besides those kinds of works?



 
 
Jenny

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 27 2010, 8:37 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

Looking through all the Ivor Lott and Tony Brokes I have available (and that's a lot - I have hundreds of these comics on disk as well as in paper form),

Signs of a misspent youth? happy.gif

I think in this case, we're not looking at a class difference in terms of surnames - when Ivor is it trouble at school, he is addressed by his surname as well. He's called Ivor in this strip because he is being praised. Tony is addressed by surname because he's not.

Thanks for the additional information. I just picked up on the penultimate frame where Ivor Lott was also in trouble but was not addressed by name at all.

I'd certainly agree that 1000 lines was worse than a caning, but in the comics, there's a pretty clear and understood heirarchy that has them as less significant and as the comics rely on shared understandings, that matters here.

Yes, it's interesting how punishments have a perceived hierarchy of severity that doesn't always match their actual severity. If I said I got the cane for some offence and my partner in crime got lines, could anyone truly say which of us received the more severe punishment? As you say though, it's the shared understanding that matters.

In terms of the idea that lines would have been shown emanating from Tony's backside if he'd been caned, not necessarily - while some artists did do that (and other things), those involved with this strip do not seem to do so...

Again, thanks for the additional information. I thought the "rays" were an almost universal cartoonists' "device" to indicate a person had been spanked, caned etc. I'm a bit surprised these cartoonists didn't use them.




 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 27 2010, 10:37 PM 

DEAN

Thanks for the Ken Reid show-great.

Now, how about some appreciation for David Law-creator of Dennis The Menace & his drawer in 2 very different styles from 1951-1970?

Or, best of all, Leo Baxendale, 80 years old this year. Minnie The Minx from her "birth" in 1953, Little Plum ditto & The Bash St Kids(started as When The Bell Rings) from 1954. 3 classic strips for 7 years-THAT is something!

The lovely thing about Bash St-well Teacher had horned-rim specs & a moustache, so it was only to be expected that Mrs Teacher had both, too.

The Head was nearly always at tea & biscuits with the Janitor. And, just as the Janitor always wore a peaked cap, so did his cat, Winston. Winston always had a saucer of milk to dunk HIS biccies in.

Happy days!



Steve

 
 
American Way

Superboy and thee Principal

August 27 2010, 10:47 PM 

Jonathan Kent Smallville High School tyrant Principal of the day.

Smallville Principal Superboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsJLeD6s0c4

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 4:23 AM 

Signs of a misspent youth?

Almost the opposite. In Australia buying British comics instead of American (superhero type comics) was seen as a sign that a boy was irredeemably nerdy.

Yes, it's interesting how punishments have a perceived hierarchy of severity that doesn't always match their actual severity. If I said I got the cane for some offence and my partner in crime got lines, could anyone truly say which of us received the more severe punishment? As you say though, it's the shared understanding that matters.

Yes, and that's part of what I was trying to explore by looking at what comics told us - what children thought about these issues collectively. I will still have some of that in the book, I just won't be able to illustrate it in the way I'd hoped.

Again, thanks for the additional information. I thought the "rays" were an almost universal cartoonists' "device" to indicate a person had been spanked, caned etc. I'm a bit surprised these cartoonists didn't use them.

The artists who did Ivor Lott and Tony Broke (Parlett and Nixon, I think, but I'd have to check that) tended to use rays like that to show movement. They'd occasionally use short versions normally accompanied by a word like 'throb' or 'sting' to show pain, but more often than not than didn't emphasise it.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 4:47 AM 

Now, how about some appreciation for David Law-creator of Dennis The Menace & his drawer in 2 very different styles from 1951-1970?

Or, best of all, Leo Baxendale, 80 years old this year. Minnie The Minx from her "birth" in 1953, Little Plum ditto & The Bash St Kids(started as When The Bell Rings) from 1954. 3 classic strips for 7 years-THAT is something!

At the risk of seeming a heretic, I've never actually been a big fan of The Beano and my collection in that area is a lot more deficient than would be normal for a collector of British comics.

But also while Davey Law is certainly one of the greats, my main focus is school corporal punishment and rather surprisingly, Dennis the Menace didn't actually get corporal punishment all that often at school - it came far more often at the hands of his father. Note for Americans reading - this is not the Dennis the Menace you are familiar with. The rhyme seems to have occurred to two people at about the same time, and two rather different comics of that title appeared on either side of the Atlantic within a week of each other in March of 1951.

And the same goes for Minnie the Minx in Baxendale's work. The Bash Street Kids - sure, there's certainly school punishment in that. So for you:

BashStreetKidsBeano280658.gif
The Beano 28th June 1958.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Girls! Girls! Girls!

August 29 2010, 5:05 AM 

One area I do explore in my book is the corporal punishment of girls versus that of boys (and no, I am not copying The Corporal Punishment of School Girls although some of the same areas are looked at - I can't ignore things that happened, I have a considerable amount of new material as well). It may surprise some people to find out that this issue can be quite contentious - I mean, it's not like it's ever discussed here, is it? happy.gif

And I have looked at the comics in this regard as well.

The school corporal punishment of girls does appear in comics, but significantly less often than that of boys. I've looked at hundreds of comics and analysed hundreds of strips - seriously, I've got a database of notes on strips - and overall about 8% of incidents of school corporal punishment in British comics relates to the punishment of girls. It's there, it's just not as common.

So I'm going to share a few of those strips over the next few days (or weeks, if I get delayed - we have fairly good internet access here, but it's not always reliable). To start with, I'm just going to share half of a strip - the first page of a two page strip.

This appeared in a 'girls comic' - Diana. It's interesting but while there were quite a number of specific comics clearly and deliberately designated as being specifically for girls, there were very few clearly and deliberately designated as being specifically for boys. It might normally be argued that this was because most comics were primarily intended for boys, but that really isn't so - The Beano, The Dandy, Buster etc, all clearly from early on were hoping to attract both boys and girls as readers. So in terms of sexism and similar, while the existence of specifically girls comics can certainly be seen as a sexist phenomena in some ways, the fact is, they were being specifically targeted and catered for and boys weren't. The closest things for boys were perhaps the war comics (Battle, for example) and the football comics (Tiger as an example) but while these were probably assumed to be more attractive to boys they girls, they weren't actively marketed as being for boys, in the way that the girls comics were actively marketed for girls.

Girls comics also tended to have superior artwork, more detailed stories, and better production values.

Why the difference? From an historical perspective, early on in the twentieth century, there were specifically boys comics and papers including, obviously, the Boys' Own Paper (hard to be clearer than that!) and The Magnet. But they didn't persist as long as things targeted deliberately to the girls.

Anyway, the strip. I'm posting it to pose a question. It's from a 1968 issue of Diana - I will give the exact date with the second strip and it has some points of interest when it comes to the punishment of girls:

ClumsyClaudiaPage01.gif

The question is, what do you think the 'severest punishment' Claudia is facing is? What does that term bring to mind for you? What do you expect? And not just what you expect in real life, but what do you think the comic will show? Will it match your expectations. I've told you the year because that could matter - different expectations at different times. What do you expect to see?


 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 5:07 AM 

Back to school humor:

Headmaster's Toys

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 11:38 AM 

DEAN

As a non-Pom, you are perfectly entitled to not be a Beano fanatic. I'm afraid I was always spiritually in tune with Dennis, which continues to slew my judgement, of course!

As for Claudia, at that time, in real life, the Headmistress might well have been warming her gym knickers with 6 of the best. But I wager the HM will pick up on "I did it because I was hungry" & Claudia will be spending a month of Saturdays with a collecting tin for Oxfam or cooking at the Sally Army hostel.

This looks like a moral improvement comic to me. That's why I suspect no CP.

On your 8%;I wish we had access to every damn punishment book to see how it worked out in real life in given years. My gut feeling is that the ratio of girls receiving it for a recorded punishment at secondary level would have been no higher than 15-20% at any time & 8% may be art almost reflecting life!

Steve

 
 

Comic strips

August 29 2010, 2:32 PM 

Thanks for that, Dean, and I'll be waiting avidly to see what "severest punishment" naughty Claudia got. Though I've noticed that lifelike comic artwork tends not to run to CP illustrations quite so readily as the caricatures. Of course, with the D.C. Thomson stable (Dandy, Beano, Beezer and Topper) Minnie The Minx, Beryl The Peril and such lead female characters were forever on the end of canes, slippers, etc whereas the Bash Street Kids had the odd token girl - perhaps the strip you produced was a later one with not so clearly defined characters and lacking the surrealism which often went with BSK.

And the incomparable Teacher's Pet usually got spanked by the female class teacher with frilly knickers on show, in front of a row of grinning boys, when her sucking-up antics went horribly wrong.

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 4:04 PM 

NEIL

The two kids farthest on the right in Dean's one disappeared from the series around 1959-that's Elli & Teddy. Dean's kindly downloaded from 1958;at this stage in my life, there was an ongoing battle between those who upheld the virtues of the Children's Newspaper(ed Arthur Mee, thanks Another_Lurker, how could anyone forget THAT surname, eh?)constituting School & Parents and those who preferred the Beano(ME).

The promise was made that, if I came top in class in BOTH Jan & July exams in class 1 at Halstow, I could choose what I read. There were no exams in the juniors, so all concerned thought they had a winner.

They didn't know me-I was nearly always top of the class for the rest of my acdademic life. Which just goes to show what a GREAT education reading the Beano was after all, even if in an obtuse way!!

Toots(Sidney's sister) was left as the only girl in c1959 & I believe was as regularly caned as the rest by Teacher,Danny(as ringleader) being the recipient of the most. Pity Dean's Beano archive is limited, 'cos I'd love to see in what percentage of strips Toots actually does gets tanned compared to the boys!


Steve

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 4:10 PM 


 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 6:59 PM 

Sorry folks, the last post from me contained a spelling error(academic not adcademic!) AND I meant to say there'd been no exams in INFANTS, hence the confidence I wouldn't top the class in Class 1 twice running, because there was no hard evidence to back up my supposed intelligence.

I didn't even need Spellchecker back then-probably because I was writing & not fat-fingered one-fingered typing as now!


Steve

 
 
Jenny

Re: Girls! Girls! Girls!

August 29 2010, 7:19 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

...I've got a database of notes on strips - and overall about 8% of incidents of school corporal punishment in British comics relates to the punishment of girls. It's there, it's just not as common.

That 8% is roughly in line with Another_Lurker's belief (here) that ten boys were caned or slippered for every girl so punished. Perhaps, overall, that was about the ratio.

Girls comics also tended to have superior artwork, more detailed stories, and better production values.

The superior artwork and more detailed stories are interesting. In the example you gave, it seems the authors felt they had to spell everything out. When Claudia overbalances on her chair, the authors explicitly states that "her chair capsized". I'm sure cartoonists of the Beano or Dandy etc. would presume the reader understood the the basic physics involved in that event without having to have it spelled out. I didn't usually read "girls" comics like that when I was younger but I wonder no if that was because, when I did see them, I got the feeling I was being treated like a simpleton.

I see a similarity with a teaching example Dr Dominum gave here -

Let's look at these two questions:

4 + 5 = ?
and
If you have four apples and I give you another five apples, how many apples will you have?

Now - it should be pretty obvious that these two questions are mathematically speaking, pretty much identical. We know that virtually instinctively because to most adults, this is a very easy question - but bear in mind to a young child, this is pretty complex stuff. I've deliberately chosen a simple example because simple examples make the point just as well as complex ones in this case but what I am about to say applies all through the teaching of arithmetic and to a great extent even applies during the easier parts of higher mathematics teaching.

The first form (4+5=?) is an algorithm problem. The second form (If you have four apples...) is a story problem. But the mathematics is the same.

Research tells us that boys tend to learn mathematics better if we start with the algorithm and then after the algorithm is mastered, we move into the story problems.

However, girls tend to learn mathematics better if we start with the story problems and then after they are understood, we introduce algorithms.


Despite what the research is supposed to say, I prefer the first form. The second overcomplicates the issue by giving irrelevant and possibly misleading information. Does the second form apply to fruit other than apples for example? What if you had four oranges and I gave you five apples? Would you have seven pieces of fruit? If the second form applies to fruit other than apples, does it also apply to other objects? If it applies to all things, why introduce apples in the first place? Are they trying to confuse me? If so, they're doing a very good job of it! sad.gif

The question is, what do you think the 'severest punishment' Claudia is facing is? What does that term bring to mind for you? What do you expect? And not just what you expect in real life, but what do you think the comic will show? Will it match your expectations. I've told you the year because that could matter - different expectations at different times. What do you expect to see?

If I had been told to expect a severe punishment, I would have been anticipating six of the best although, possibly, expulsion. As to what the comic will show, given the year (1968) possibly she'll get a couple of strokes of the cane on her hand but more likely a detention or 500 lines.


 
 
Jenny

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 29 2010, 7:36 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

Almost the opposite. In Australia buying British comics instead of American (superhero type comics) was seen as a sign that a boy was irredeemably nerdy.

Interesting point. From those I've seen, I think American comics are more "action packed" than British. I get the impression British comics leave more to the imagination. Do you get that impression too?




 
 
prof.n

Learning mathematics

August 29 2010, 9:32 PM 

Hi Jenny and Dr, Dominum


Dr Dominum said

The first form (4+5=?) is an algorithm problem. The second form (If you have four apples...) is a story problem. But the mathematics is the same.

Jenny replied

Despite what the research is supposed to say, I prefer the first form. The second overcomplicates the issue by giving irrelevant and possibly misleading information. Does the second form apply to fruit other than apples for example? What if you had four oranges and I gave you five apples? Would you have seven pieces of fruit? If the second form applies to fruit other than apples, does it also apply to other objects? If it applies to all things, why introduce apples in the first place? Are they trying to confuse me? If so, they're doing a very good job of it!

Just an observation. Willer and Willer in their text on epistemology 'Systematic Empiricism' note that whilst statistical findings in the social sciences are strictly limited to given times, places , populations and research methods. Often the postulated 'likelihoods' are extrapolated to universal givens . Thus the attempt in the social sciences to raise human behavioral 'science' to the status of a predictive science.

They go onto derive the formal mathematical proof that this is fallacious , but I'm sure I don;t have to reproduce that for either of you .

However their explanation for WHY this happens is interesting. They suggest it is related to learning patterns in social science which are essentially 'storytelling' not algorithmic in nature. the problem here is that the derivation of the proof too is relocated into a discursive mode, and thus blinds the researchers to the ideological nature of the materials they are working on .

Applying Dr. Dominums analysis the social sciences have feminine learning methods at their heart !!!

 
 
Jenny

Re: Learning mathematics

August 29 2010, 10:01 PM 

Hi prof.n

Luckily, either nobody has spotted the glaring error in my calculation or are just keeping quiet about it to save me from the Forum Prefect (Alan Turing). sad.gifsad.gifsad.gif

I know 4 + 5 = 9 so four oranges plus five apples would not be seven pieces of fruit. That error was entirely unintentional but could it perhaps be an example of what I was saying? 4 + 5 is easy to solve. 4x + 5x isn't really any more difficult but "if you have four apples and I give you another five apples" just makes things more difficult.

I know I ought to have removed the irrelevant information and just dealt with the relevant bit - "4 + 5 = " but I'm female so I've no excuse for failing to solve it the difficult way. sad.gif

I just hope I don't get a severe telling off for this. sad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gif


 
 

Another_Lurker

What's the fate of poor Claudia?

August 30 2010, 12:42 AM 

Hi Dean. A most fascinating thread, thank you. Please keep up the good work! As to the fate of young Claudia I really don't know which way to jump. Let's assume the Diana comic tried to reflect the real life of its readers. The Winchgate School for Girls sounds a slightly upmarket establishment. It has a smart uniform and possibly (judging from the frame showing the teacher writing on the blackboard) the teaching staff wear academic gowns. In 1968 UK some such girls' schools certainly used CP, but that could be anything from a ruler on the hand to the cane on the bottom.

A difficult one, but I'm going to opt for three strokes of the cane bent over the headmistress's desk for the accident prone Claudia in the eagerly awaited next episode. However, in the event that I am wrong I shall plead severe shock as a mitigating factor, as in a preceding post by my very esteemed fellow contributor Jenny I have just read that:

8% is roughly in line with Another_Lurker's belief (here) that ten boys were caned or slippered for every girl so punished. Perhaps, overall, that was about the ratio.
happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
prof.n

4+5 =?

August 30 2010, 10:34 AM 

Hi Jenny ,

I wouldn't dare challenge a lady's addition happy.gifhappy.gif(happy.gif I learned many many years ago that the sexes had different rules of calculation !!! As I've written a few times, when I was 5 going 6 in pre-prep school ,because I could already read fluently, knew my tables, etc etc. I was 'advanced 'into a class of 8 year olds within the main preparatory school rather than stay playing in the sandpit .


There I had 9x5=45 marked wrong five times in a row by my class teacher, AND she grabbed my arm smacking me several times on the hand with a ruler for being 'awkward' when I 'refused to get the sum right' .sad.gifsad.gifsad.gif

Very sensibly I ran away and hid in the school stables. The incident led to my parents withdrawing me from the school in disgust. They did get their money back, and I got a bike from the governors....... sized for an 8 year old! happy.gifsad.gif

BUT never let it be said corporal punishment doesn't work. I learned my lesson..sad.gif

I learned that males and females do arithmetic differently!!! happy.gif I also learned as Humpty Dumpty reminds us , the only important question is , 'who is master and that is all'!(Simon Warr might approve of that ! ).

And then. much later, when I learned about the logical faults in systematic empiricism,as applied to the social sciences, well then, what does it matter what 4+5 equals, or even if answers are positive or negative ....if the data itself, and the applied 'methodology' is suspect. !!!!!!!!!!

Anyway that's what I frequently tell my bank manager!

 
 

thesameolesteve

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 30 2010, 10:51 AM 

NEIL

Come to think of it, looking again at Dean's upload, Teddy & Elli aren't anywhere in the strip itself!! All the other kids are.

Wonder if Winston would have known where they went?


Steve


 
 
Ketta

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 30 2010, 4:12 PM 


This is a tricky one,

Most of these girlie type comics strips ,of which I'll add ,never floated my boat, ran storylines based around girls tucked up in one boarding school or another, the emphasis based on adventure, jolly hockey sticks, high jinks in the dorm and every other character owned a wretched pony.

Just to make it a bit more interesting, one or two of the characters were seen as daring, even rebellious, with the head girl or prefects at worst, dishing out lines or detention to the culprits. Now my bets the worse Claudia got off Miss Reed (can anyone else see the Maggie Thatcher resemblance bottom left) was a stern lecture and grounded.

Prof N

You're lucky to have a bank manager, personal bankers if your luck or the chap in Bombay are all I get fobbed off with, they can't add 4+5 if they tried




Neither shame nor physical pain have any other effect than a hardening one.

Education can give you a skill, but a liberal education can give you dignity.
Ellen Key



 
 
prof.n

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 30 2010, 5:20 PM 



Hi Ketta,

Neither shame nor physical pain have any other effect than a hardening one.

Education can give you a skill, but a liberal education can give you dignity.
Ellen Key




What a brilliant find !

Oh btw on bank managers. I may still have one but the branch gets miles and miles further away every year. The current one has just 'been promoted to be commercial something or other...... Moreover until a year or a so ago you could get them on a direct landline , now it a mobile,so I hold my breath....doesn't bode well!

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 30 2010, 6:40 PM 

Beano School Corporal Punishment 1964

Honolable Blitsh Custom

 
 
willyeckaslike

Classics from the Comics

August 31 2010, 11:36 AM 

Re;- Claudia

I bet the most severest form of punishment Claudia will get is to be banned from playing in the inter schools hockey match.

Aren't ALL girls really enthusiastic to play hockey on a cold wet muddy field ? To be banned from playing for the school is the ultimate disgrace and humiliation of letting the school down. According to the establishment the games period is a time for enjoying competitive outdoor pursuits.

When games periods were originally introduced that was intention, for the pupils to enjoy themselves from the pressures of academic school work. I wonder why games were to be made compulsory ?

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 5:37 AM 

So let's look at the punishments people came up with for Clumsy Claudia - what they thought might happen.

Did she get six of the best across her gym knickers?

Is she condemned to collect for Oxfam? Or cooking for the Sally Army?

Expulsion? Detention? A couple of strokes of the cane on the hands? Detention? 500 lines?

Three strokes of the cane bent across a desk?

A lecture? Grounded?

Banned from playing in the big Hockey Match?

All is revealed:

ClumsyClaudiaPage02Diana14121968.gif

What on earth just happened?

Did they... really... she's got away with no punishment whatsoever! I mean, supposedly she's losing three points for her form in an interform competition (which raises the whole issue of unfairly punishing a whole group for what one person did), but they don't have any points to lose. They're on 0. They've lost three points. THEY'VE LOST NOTHING!

(And, no, they didn't go into negatives - I've got the next two issues, and we see the score board in both of those strips as well, and when they gain 2 and then 6, points their score is displayed as 0-0-0-2-6 (8).

Baffling. Utterly baffling.

Maybe that's the punishment - that Claudia spends the rest of her life thinking "What?"

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 5:49 AM 

As a non-Pom, you are perfectly entitled to not be a Beano fanatic. I'm afraid I was always spiritually in tune with Dennis, which continues to slew my judgement, of course!

I liked British comics in general as a kid - I was an irredeemably nerdy kid - but Buster, the short-lived School Fun, Whizzer and Chips and Whoopee were the ones I generally bought. The Beano was harder to get in Australia (Fleetway specifically marketed here - they even had prices for Australia and New Zealand printed on the covers, DC Thomson did not - so the mix of comics available here was not the same as that in the UK - you could get both companies outputs at large newsagents, but smaller newsagents and milkbars tended to only sell Fleetway titles).

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 5:57 AM 

Thanks for that, Dean, and I'll be waiting avidly to see what "severest punishment" naughty Claudia got. Though I've noticed that lifelike comic artwork tends not to run to CP illustrations quite so readily as the caricatures. Of course, with the D.C. Thomson stable (Dandy, Beano, Beezer and Topper) Minnie The Minx, Beryl The Peril and such lead female characters were forever on the end of canes, slippers, etc whereas the Bash Street Kids had the odd token girl - perhaps the strip you produced was a later one with not so clearly defined characters and lacking the surrealism which often went with BSK.

Actually it's a fairly early strip - I chose it because Steve mentioned Leo Baxendale. While Baxendale invented the Bash Street Kids, he only drew it from 1954-1962. As I mentioned my Beano collection is fairly limited at the moment (I'm working to change that) and the strip I shared is the only Baxendale era Bash Street Kids I have with a corporal punishment scene in it. Most of what I have - and most of the strips in total ever drawn - are the work of David Sutherland.

 
 


Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 6:01 AM 

Though I've noticed that lifelike comic artwork tends not to run to CP illustrations quite so readily as the caricatures.

Meant to address this in my last post.

Yes, realistic depictions of school corporal punishment in comics are much less common - the realistic strips just didn't contain as many. But I do have a couple of examples of this, and I'll share them here:

FeatherweightFreddieBuster31stMarch1979.gif
Featherweight Freddie from Buster 31st March 1979.

PaddysMcGintysGoatPage1Jet17thJuly1971.gif
PaddysMcGintysGoatPage2Jet17thJuly1971.gif
Paddy McGinty's Goat from Jet 17th July 1971.



 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 6:12 AM 

The superior artwork and more detailed stories are interesting. In the example you gave, it seems the authors felt they had to spell everything out. When Claudia overbalances on her chair, the authors explicitly states that "her chair capsized". I'm sure cartoonists of the Beano or Dandy etc. would presume the reader understood the the basic physics involved in that event without having to have it spelled out. I didn't usually read "girls" comics like that when I was younger but I wonder no if that was because, when I did see them, I got the feeling I was being treated like a simpleton.

That's quite an interesting view.

My own view is that the typical girls comic actually treated its readers with considerably more respect than the other comics did, intellectually speaking. The stories were more detailed because they were more complex, in general - Clumsy Claudia isn't the best example of that, but even then it's a continuing serial which were rarer in the other comics (girls comics tended to have more serials than stand alones - in others even though the same characters appeared in each strip each week, there was normally only one or two serials with clear references back to previous episodes at most in a particular comic. While I'd never buy them (I liked not being beaten up!) I quite enjoyed girls comics when I got the chance to read them precisely because they did expect a little more. I didn't mind quick humour - I liked it actually - but a change was nice sometimes.

I wanted to share this one - also from Diana - 21st December 1968 (a week after the Clumsy Claudia strip above). A two pager again, this time I'll share both pages. This is about the only time I've found a clear reference to what could be termed corporal punishment in a Diana - but bear in mind my collection of Diana's is very small - less than half a dozen issues. I am told by others that there were occasionally incidents. But as I say, this is the only one I've seen - and it's a bit of an odd one in my opinion.

MaryBrownsSchooldaysPage1Diana211219868.gif

MaryBrownsSchooldaysPage2Diana211219868.gif

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 6:13 AM 

And finally, for today, from The Beano of 18th September 1971, a strip that I hope will be to the liking of those who believe in the equality of the sexes.

RogerTheDodgerBeano18091971.gif

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 10:14 AM 

DEAN

Well, well. It appears barmy surrealism wasn't just in Desperate Dan. You'd think the proto-Thatcher(she was not even a shadow Minister in 1968) HM would pick up on Claudia's spending so much time on her bottom, therefore HM ought to tan it for her, but no such luck.

The Admiral sounds like a man with the right idea, though. Pity it's 14 year olds he's targetting, the paedo!

I'd totally forgotten about Winnie The Wangler. I've just wondered if her appearance in the strip always ended up in a tanning for both of them, especially as I believe their respective fathers were related! Have a suspicion that might've been the case.

I do remember her from my days reading it each week(1959-1970). Yes, THAT 1970-I always liked a bit of light relief at school, especially from Pope, Chaucer, Maupassant, Mauriac and Corneille, and I can guarantee you there weren't many smacked bums on offer in those august pages.


Steve

 
 
Alan Turing

Lucky Jenny!

September 1 2010, 5:16 PM 

Luckily, either nobody has spotted the glaring error in my calculation or are just keeping quiet about it to save me from the Forum Prefect (Alan Turing).

When the Forum Prefect is on holiday, mathematical errors will, I regret, go unpunished! happy.gif

 
 

StevefromSE5

Not a lot of people know this......................pt1

September 1 2010, 9:57 PM 

................but you are now about to discover how The Trying Cup competition was concluded at Winchgate School.

Apologies that my artistic talents don't run to accurate drawings of people, so we will be proceeding as per early computer game The Golden Wombat Of Destiny by the power of words.

The Trying Cup turned out to be a very closely-contested event in the end. Miss Reed, Headmistress, had to arrange a hockey tournament to decide the winners.

Each of the 8 forms in Year III were to play the others, one point for a draw, two for a win. This was scheduled to take place all day, and Clumsy Claudia manages to avoid jeopardising Form 3's chances in the morning, when they win two and draw one of their matches. Form 1 win all four of theirs and are top of the table.

Claudia, in response to demands from her form-mates plays a new position, left-behind, in the dressing rooms! Miss Meek takes pity on her & lets her be their line judge.

Of course, they break for lunch. Claudia has worn her blazer over her sports gear, so she's not mistaken as a player. Having changed back into her uniform, she tries to grab her blazer from off the peg-DISASTER!

This row of pegs is the only one not properly inspected by the janitor & Claudia's jacket, stuck on the peg, is the cause of the entire row coming off the changing room wall. Unfortunately, the heavy mahongany-backed peg row falls straight onto the right foot of Samantha Barrington-Smythe-Paget, Form 3's star goalscoring number 9.

Samantha's broken foot means two things-the kybosh has now apparently rather firmly been put on Form 3's chances. And, Claudia will now be entrusted with the number 9 shirt forthwith.

Form 3 troops despondantly toward the dining hall.


TO BE CONTINUED FORTHWITH(IE WHEN I'VE HAD A FAG)!!


Steve

 
 

StevefromSE5

Not a lot of people know this......................pt2

September 1 2010, 10:25 PM 

You may have noticed a couple of things about Claudia. Firstly, as often before, she gets last place in the dining queue, meaning no-one else notices what happens to her at the servery.


Secondly, she has a startling resemblance to a stegosaurus, which had such a small brain it was probably only dimly aware that it existed.


That explains why not even Claudia observes that her dinner is served by..........a six-foot tall weasel. Yes, Paddy McGinty's Goat had previously visied Earth.


Claudia still manages to carry out a brief conversation with the Dinner Weasel, so it/he knows there's four games to play that afternoon. That's why the Dinner Weasel gives Claudia an extra helping of mash.


Claudia being Claudia doesn't get time to eat it all, of course. But, given her appetite she just has to eat all the mash.


And, well, the previously-hopeless hockey player has suddenly become a female George Best(it is 1968 & he's just won the European Cup for Man Utd!)with a hockey stick. Form 3's first three games result in wins by 19-1,17-0 & 22-2. The Dinner Weasel inserted four atomic energy pills into that extra spoonful of mash, you see.


Their last match, naturally, is against Form 1. By an amazing coincidence, Form 1 have four England schoolgirl internationalists in their defence. Twice, Form 1 take the lead & twice Claudia breaches that defensive line to equalize.

However, Form 3 must win this game, a draw gives the Trying Cup to Form 1. With 5 seconds to go, Claudia suddenly shoots from 15 yards. The shot is only six inches off the ground, is upstoppable, goes over the line and it's the winner. But................................


Steve

 
 

StevefromSE5

Not a lot of people know this......................pt3

September 1 2010, 11:04 PM 

................Claudia didn't listen when the Dinner Weasel advised her to dribble & NOT shoot hard. Well, she did, but excitement gets the better of her.


The atomic-powered shot evaporates the net(luckily not the net-minder)hits a boundary wall & flies vertically 200 feet up. There it unluckily meets the alien's spaceship. He/It is quick enough to parachute out unseen & now you know the origin of that Paddy McGinty story-poor alien had to wait 3 years for a suitable comic strip to turn up!


The ship isn't as quick-witted & plunges into Winchcroft School. Which is totally & utterly destroyed.


Miss Reed turns purple. Claudia is expelled from school, until Miss Meek helpfully points out that, as Winchcroft School, per se, has ipso facto ceased to exist, this is a jurisprudential, or at least a headmistresstorial absurdity.


Miss Reed then threatens to give Claudia an hour's detention for every girl killed in the spaceship crash. Miss Reed helpfully points out(doncha love her!) that every girl in the school is out playing or cheering their form on.


Miss Reed storms away telling Claudia to see her at 9.30 the next morning.


Cut now to 9:32 the next day. Four girls from Form 3 pass Miss Reed's study(miraculously raised from the ashes overnight by the Dinner Weasel)room from which red and purple rays are emanating. Said rays say(on the left) SMACK,SLAP & on the right, OUCH! YOW! WAAH!.


And, at 9:35, the same girls go back past the study. Rays on the left now read SPANK,THWACK,THUD & on the right, one long WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is their speech:


GIRL 1: Gosh, is Claudia STILL getting it?

GIRL 2: Yes, it's part 2, I think.

GIRL 3: Wow, that's three dozen smacks from The Admiral she's had already,

GIRL 4: And now three dozen spanks of the slipper from Miss Reed!

GIRL 1: Must be a world record-72 spanks!

GIRL 2: Yes, one for every £1,000 it will cost to rebuild the school.

GIRL 3: I wonder if....

GIRL 4: Oh yes, only the best for Claudia-every one's been on the bare bottom, too!

GIRL 3: Good job the Dinner Weasel gave Miss Reed & The Admiral extra beans for breakfast, eh?!



Steve


 
 
Jenny

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 1 2010, 11:31 PM 

Hi Dean Clarke

My own view is that the typical girls comic actually treated its readers with considerably more respect than the other comics did, intellectually speaking. The stories were more detailed because they were more complex, in general - Clumsy Claudia isn't the best example of that, but even then it's a continuing serial which were rarer in the other comics

I suppose it's a matter of personal taste. Some people like films with full detail, others like plays with minimal props. I can enjoy either at different times and in different ways. We can read a book and imagine the scene from the description or we can look at a series of pictures and follow the "story". In both case, our imaginations are stimulated to provide the details. In the "Claudia" example, everything is explained - just like in a mass-appeal film. Whether children's comics should be considered "art" is another matter but it might be good to gently introduce them to the concept through comics.

(girls comics tended to have more serials than stand alones - in others even though the same characters appeared in each strip each week, there was normally only one or two serials with clear references back to previous episodes at most in a particular comic.

I'll put my cynic's hat on here. happy.gif I see the purpose of the serials is simply to get the reader hooked so they continue buying the comic. Most comics could get by with one or two serials but comics aimed at girls had to have more so that, with luck, one of them would keep the readers coming back. wink.gif

While I'd never buy them (I liked not being beaten up!) I quite enjoyed girls comics when I got the chance to read them precisely because they did expect a little more. I didn't mind quick humour - I liked it actually - but a change was nice sometimes.

So much for sex-stereotyping. happy.gif I'd rather read a general comic or even a "boys' comic" - apart from anything to do with football. sad.gif When I was about 11 or 12, I progressed to more adult magazines that my mother disapproved of - Practical Wireless and similar. wink.gif




 
 
Alan Turing

Practical Wireless

September 2 2010, 7:14 AM 

A brilliant way to spend breaktime. I think the first issue I read had a two-stage OC71/OC72 audio amp as its cover story, though I can't really remember after all this time. There were lots of valve construction articles, too.

Mind you, the thought of girls reading PW would have seemed very strange indeed! happy.gif

 
 
Jenny

Re: Practical Wireless

September 2 2010, 1:13 PM 

Hi Alan Turing

A brilliant way to spend breaktime.

Certainly more interesting than reading "Bunty" or pressing flowers. wink.gif (Sorry Doc.)

I think the first issue I read had a two-stage OC71/OC72 audio amp as its cover story, though I can't really remember after all this time. There were lots of valve construction articles, too.

It started when my uncle gave me some old copies of PW after I showed an interest in the crystal set he'd built.I can't remember what the first issue/article I read was about although I do remember a project to construct a multi-meter.

Almost all the projects involved "bottles" but there was often a simple transistor circuit. Now you mention it, I seem to remember a two stage OC71/OC72 amp. - I might still have the magazine somewhere in the attic. (Did I mention I'm something of a hoarder?) At the time it was all theory for me because my pocket money wouldn't stretch to buying the components. I remember seeing transistors priced at 24/- (£1.20) which was a significant amount of money in those days but, as you've said before, they were made from real geraniums.(sic). wink.gif "Bottle" jobs were out of the question for me because I had neither the skills nor the tools to fashion chassis from sheet aluminium. Trying to bend it with only a hair-dryer (set on max.) to apply heat and cutting it with a nail-file was a very laborious process. I won't repeat what my mother said when she saw the remains of her baking tray. wink.gif As transistor prices fell, and I became a bit more affluent, I was able to build a few circuits. Another project I remember was a digital die (in Practical Electronics IIRC). I hadn't seen it but a (male) friend at school told me he'd built a vibrator and offered to demonstrate it to me. wink.gif It was an astable flip-flop from that project. happy.gif

Mind you, the thought of girls reading PW would have seemed very strange indeed! happy.gif

I've never denied being strange. happy.gif Is it really any different from a boy being interested in pressed flowers, baking cakes or reading girls' comics? I know a man who has won a local cake-baking competition several years running - he reckons the free-range eggs from my chickens help. happy.gif My interest in electronics (and technology in general) stood me in good stead for my future career. Why should any of us be prevented from achieving our potentials just because of our sex?


 
 
Alan Turing

Re: Practical Wireless

September 2 2010, 9:24 PM 

Hi Jenny:

Well yes, the early transistors were expensive, but you could get most of the standard valves for around 3/6d1, not so bad, provided that you could cope with the ironwork. Eventually I took to splashing out on a pre-formed chassis, but to start with I just bought some sheet aluminium2, used a hacksaw to cut out squares at the corners, and folded it in a vice. I also invested in a couple of Q-max chassis cutters, one for octal valves and one for B7G (or perhaps B9A, I can't remember). A small drill did the rest.

The electronics, though, was a mixture of designs from the magazines and vastly eccentric home-brewed contraptions. I once wound a coil on a toilet roll, coupled it to (both gangs of) a twin-gang variable capacitor, fed the output into half a valve double diode as a detector, and then pushed the resulting audio into a 15W twin-6V6 amplifier! It could only pick up the Light Programme and the Home Service using a yard-long piece of mains flex as an aerial3, but the quality was superb! Beat that for nerdery!

My comment about only strange girls reading PW was, of course, in the context of the time. There really must have been very few, and I didn't meet any. I suspect that, by 1960, memories of female industrial workers during the war had faded; most working women were in shops or offices, largely in junior positions.

Or, of course, they were teachers. happy.gif

1. About 50 cents at the 1960 exchange rate.
2. "aluminum".
3. "antenna".

 
 
Jenny

Re: Practical Wireless

September 3 2010, 5:18 PM 

Hi Alan Turing

Well yes, the early transistors were expensive, but you could get most of the standard valves for around 3/6d, not so bad, provided that you could cope with the ironwork.

It was mainly the ironwork that put me off using valves ("tubes") so I didn't take too much notice of the prices then. I think PW cost about half a crown (2/6d or 121/2p) then so 3/6d wasn't too bad.

I once wound a coil on a toilet roll, coupled it to (both gangs of) a twin-gang variable capacitor, fed the output into half a valve double diode as a detector, and then pushed the resulting audio into a 15W twin-6V6 amplifier! It could only pick up the Light Programme and the Home Service using a yard-long piece of mains flex as an aerial3, but the quality was superb! Beat that for nerdery!

Ooohhh! You're getting me all excited now, I'll have to take a cold shower. wink.gif That outnerds anything I've done. sad.gif

My comment about only strange girls reading PW was, of course, in the context of the time.

I suppose I was unusual in that respect for that time. Blame my uncle - it was he who got me interested in the subject and supplied me with old copies of PW. Interestingly, several years later he and his son-in-law were having trouble with an electronic switch he'd designed - it was I who was able to tell them they needed to configure the op-amp as a Schmitt trigger. happy.gif When I first met the man whom I married, he was stunned to find I could read a schematic. Despite both his and my mothers' best efforts, I still can't make sense of a knitting pattern though.

Getting (vaguely) back on this estimable Forum's topic, my interest in electronics did get me into a little trouble at school once. For an art project, some fifth (possibly sixth) form boys had built some disco type light controllers and we were all "invited" to see the display class by class. I wasn't interested in the artistic effects though, instead I was going over the schematics with one of the boys involved. I got a bit of a "telling off" from the art teacher - "You're supposed to be looking at the lights, girl!" wink.gif


 
 
Alan Turing

Still off-topic (sorry)

September 3 2010, 6:17 PM 

But I can knit ... happy.gif

 
 

Dean Clarke

And now a question

September 6 2010, 5:29 AM 

Part of my reason for looking at these comics is the idea that they might give some insight into children's attitudes and experiences involving corporal punishment at the time they were printed. The vast majority of scenes I have identified are either domestic in nature (parents punishing their children) or school based (teachers punishing the children they teach). Hardly surprising - these would obviously seem to be the most common scenarios children encountered.

But there is another category - children experiencing corporal punishment at the hands of other 'authority figures'. This strip is an example (from Knockout 9th September 1972.)

KnockoutLittleDevil09091972.gif

A child getting a spanking at the hands of a park keeper.

I have numerous other examples - managers of shops, a town's mayor, other random adults who happen to observe misbehaviour. These scenes are relatively common up until around 1972 in the comics when they suddenly become much less common.

I suppose a question I have is how closely did these scenes reflect reality. Were children actually reasonably physically punished by people other than their teachers or parents? Was this seen as normal? Are the comics reflecting reality? Any comments.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 6 2010, 2:32 PM 

The cane is always so much apart of cartoons in the UK but paddling is so rare that it is not usually a subject of cartoons published nationwide. The generic word spanking is used in the third cartoon.

click

click

click


 
 
prof.n

irony

September 6 2010, 6:18 PM 


American Way ,

Thanks ! The third cartoon is my kind of irony.

Here is the ideology to go with it : the band who claimed to be the High school favorites for 30 years, AND whose concert tickets were the object of desire on 'Dazed and Confused'

Poor old John on this track is more than confused,and as for dazed......????? .................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNVaG0PxnZg

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 7 2010, 1:41 AM 

Hi Dean. It is good that you are finding the opportunity to continue this excellent thread. You say:

A child getting a spanking at the hands of a park keeper.

I have numerous other examples - managers of shops, a town's mayor, other random adults who happen to observe misbehaviour. These scenes are relatively common up until around 1972 in the comics when they suddenly become much less common.

I suppose a question I have is how closely did these scenes reflect reality. Were children actually reasonably physically punished by people other than their teachers or parents? Was this seen as normal? Are the comics reflecting reality? Any comments.

I'm sure I'll encounter some disagreement on this, since it is obviously very dependent on type of locality, rural, urban, wealthy, poor etc. I'd say though that in the UK it would probably be necessary to go back some time before 1972 before you'd find a situation where an adult, authority figure or otherwise, would be likely to chastise a child except in the role of parent, close relative or family friend, or school teacher.

Indeed, I'd say you'd probably need to go back to my own childhood, the 1940s and early 1950s, for this to be at all common. Certainly at that time some adults who felt they had sufficient cause might well slap a child not their own apprehended in mischief, but even then it wasn't the expected outcome. Communities were much closer than they are now and a report back to one's parents was the more usual outcome.

An exception was policemen, far more commonly encountered then than now. Indeed I still remember the sheer terror which ensued when as a little lad I idly threw a stone over a fence into bushes on some allotment gardens. There was an irate shout and out of the bushes leapt a policeman. I've no idea what he was doing there and I didn't stop to find out! Policemen all carried black leather gloves and were likely to give a transgressing child a clip round the ear with them. Much more effective than all that form filling and cautioning they have to go in for now!

 
 
Declan

Re: Classics from the Comics

September 8 2010, 6:53 AM 

Just about on topic , and may be of interest.

I am reading a book by Keith Dewhurst, a journalist and playwright , called " When you put a Red Shirt On" This is mainly about his experiences as a football reporter on the Manchester Evening Chronicle following Manchester United in the 1950s. I don't know whether you have read it Steve , but a very interesting book.

He talks about his early days in about 1953 and his colleagues on the paper. He describes a reporter called Harold Mellor who edited reader's letters. One of the letters, accompanied by a cartoonist's illustration read " Dear Sir, When my sixteen year old daughter comes in late I put her across my knee and give her a hiding. Yours, Old Fashioned , Moss Side" He adds that the ensuing response was most lively.

It would be fun to see that cartoon and the letters which followed it!

 
 

Inspirational

October 2 2010, 9:17 AM 

This whole posting has been inspiration. Good luck with your book Mr Dean Clarke, you truly deserve for it to be sucessful.
Freddie

 
 
KK

A simple wireless

October 2 2010, 8:45 PM 

I used to live within a few km of a 100 KW radio transmitter. It was possible to receive the station using an aerial, diode, earphones and an earth. No batteries. No tuning. There was some background interferences from other stations.

 
 
American Way

Calvin and Hobbes AND WHAT

December 29 2010, 11:08 PM 

January 13, 1986 thru January 19, 1986. School corporal punishment.

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/01/13

 
 
American Way

College Corporal Punishment?

December 31 2010, 7:25 PM 

An interesting question was raised by Corpun as whether Eucon College paddled their students subject it would seem to the same set of rules as their high school. I wonder how today's women would react to this 1950's dime store romance comic? The "=2" fourth link (animated check aka ATM) and try calling a girl a desirable piece of femininity "=10" last link. Don't try this at home or in Kiev. sad.gif;(;(

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cover.php?id=11

http://www.spankingpanels.com/story.php?id=11

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=1

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=2

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=57

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=56

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=5

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=6

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=8

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=9

http://www.spankingpanels.com/cpage.php?id=10

 
 
American Way

Software/Hardware Happy New Year American Way

December 31 2010, 11:03 PM 


 
 

Dean Clarke

Blatant Plagiarism

January 7 2011, 11:07 AM 

I am now returned from deployment - have been for a few weeks but made my family my obvious priority over Christmas and New Years. I had a safe and successful deployment, but found myself sent to a forward operating position where I had far less computer access than I had expected, and so I was unable to continue this thread. Until now.

Jenny mentioned earlier in this thread that she believed she had seen the first strip I posted - a Whacky - as a child, but felt it had involved a different character - possibly Roger the Dodger or one of the Bash Street Kids. There were so many of these comics around churning out stories on a weekly basis, one shouldn't be surprised that occasionally an idea was repeated - sometimes it might have been accidental. But sometimes, you've got to think a little bit of funny business going on. And I thought I'd bring an example of that up for my next post.

First of all, we have a 'side strip' from the 5th September 1970 issue of Cor!!. Whacky is the main strip on the page, and does have some corporal punishment content as ever - but allow me to draw your attention to the Kids Problem Column on the right. A classic solution to a classic problem.

CorWhacky05091970.gif

Now, let's leap forward in time a little over six years to the 6th November 1976 issue of Krazy. Again, the relevant strip is the one on the right side of the page - Krazy Agony Column.

KrazyBoatBuilding06111976.gif

Does it look familiar? It does to me.

I bet a kid would have got in trouble if they'd done something similar!

(It also makes me doubt the sincerity of the £1 prize money on offer).


 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 12 2011, 3:18 AM 

No comments on my last post. Try again.

I am posting these two comics in connection to the thread Name given to strap / slipper?

To me the idea of naming an implement of corporal punsihment like this seems odd, but it certainly seems to have happened on occasion. Two comics that provide examples from the world of children's literature.

Whacky from Cor!! of 27th January 1973 - Meet Sid and Harry.

CorWhacky27011973.gif

Most sinister is the appearance of 'Peter the Beater' in Chalky 3rd November 1973.

CorChalky03111973.gif

One feature of these comics is that teachers though often depicted as 'mean' in some way generally retain some element of likability or at least make you somewhat sympathetic towards them - this Art teacher is a great exception to that.

 
 
Nathaniel

Classic Canings

January 12 2011, 3:51 AM 

The canings in the comics imply a fast series of strokes applied to the boy's bottom. The times that I received the cane the strokes were administered in a more measured fashion with a 2-3 second pause between each stroke. I remember my Headmaster going to his cabinet where his three crook handled canes hung from wooden dowls and the flexing of the rod, before the command to bend over and touch my toes was given. I remember the Headmaster walking behind me, standing on my left and lining the cane against my bottom; next came the three light taps and the swish of the first stroke.

My headmaster liked to keep me in the bent over position while he returned his cane to the cabinet and then I was given permission to stand up, finally being dismissed and a slow walk back to class with a very sore bottom.

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 12 2011, 10:18 AM 

DEAN

Thanks for these.

Intrigued an art teacher would be daft enough to teach in gown. Never saw one in there at MGS nor in the woodwork room.

And interested in the oil applied to the canes-LINSEED. We all know what that's used for-WILLOW cricket bat preservation. I wonder if it does also keep bamboo/rattan supple?

Re the previous two, I suspect they are all made up, just like most letters to newspapers.

I've just noticed on the reader's letters pair, one allegedly came from Scaly of Prescott, that's part of greater Liverpool, and a scally(ie scally wag) is the traditional modern media name for a Liverpudlian.

It's supposed to reflect their "carefree" & irreverent attitude to life.

That's as they steal anything that's not nailed down in any city or town on the planet, so you can chuckle as they now let you partially join them-you will, however, not be carefree, but CARfree as they nick it!


Steve

 
 
hcj

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 12 2011, 3:05 PM 

And interested in the oil applied to the canes-LINSEED. We all know what that's used for-WILLOW cricket bat preservation. I wonder if it does also keep bamboo/rattan supple?

I've tried it and it just made a sticky mess that was almost impossible to clean off. I certainly wouldn't recommend using it on cane furniture either, which is, after all, the same material.

 
 
ICU

Face Ache

January 12 2011, 9:05 PM 

Thanks for posting these fabulous comics. I for one have really enjoyed them.
I especially like the FaceAche one with the cane shop.

Have you noticed, the cane shop proprietor looks like some old lag just out of prison? A real criminal. I wonder if the author was trying to make some point here.

Well, when I was a kid, you could spot a criminal a mile away because they all looked like this e.g. broken nose, cauliflower ears, shaved head.. Oh and they all wore striped jerseys and carried a swag bag.

So, in essence, were cane makers criminals?

Thanks again for the great comics!

 
 
American Way

Eric Wildman

January 12 2011, 10:29 PM 

A fine proprietor of canes that looks lie the man next door. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 13 2011, 12:01 AM 

The strap on the bottom was used until the early sixties in the public schools in my area but I'm sure over the trousers. I cannot picture this woman with a nun's habit so it didn't give me the chills. sad.gif I know something about illustrations and this is definitely done by a talented a woman (Stephanie Burke). It makes me wonder what her inclinations may be? In my naiveté it never even dawned upon me that girls could be indulging in carnal pleasures as I would have theirs. It was once brought to my attention that there would not be a surfeit of posters here who would be averse to being caned by a woman and trade places and that too escaped my attention. wink.gifwink.gifwink.gif

CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

April 29 2011, 4:57 PM 

Royal Family has been skewered here in the States by some and I think unfairly and hardly worth repeating on such a glorious occasion. Jokes are made about the royal fanny with the position of the moon today and her juvenile mooning incident. No one is perfect and I think we all agree he made a beautiful choice. Congratulations from the American Way.

The Spokane Daily Chronicle reports something related to spanking of Queen Elizabeth II that I'm sure is public knowledge across the pond.

The hugely successful Australian comic pokes fun at what it sees as the royal family with the spoiled Queen Pera the Perfect. It was quite a popular comic but has become popular with the Chicago Spanking Review, issuing a caveat as usual but fully clothed. Spanking as a means of humbling the haughty appeals to some for a whole different reason with the end of the age of the innocence.

CLICK

CLICK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frew_Publications

Chicago Spanking Review

 
 

StevefromSE5

Re: Classics from the Comics

April 29 2011, 6:27 PM 

Hi AW

I don't know what was in the coolerators & water fountains in Spokane in 1952, but it seems to've contributed to a complete fantasy.

There's no evidence whatsoever that HM was ever spanked as a child. As an ardent republican, I'm not saying that for the sake of it, either. Now Prince Philip DID once spank Princess Anne on the deck of the royal yacht when she was being bratty, several newspaper people saw it.

I'd also regard the "pleasantly plump" description as rubbish as well-one thing the Queen has never suffered from is excess weight.


Steve

 
 

The First Teacher's Pet from Cor

April 29 2011, 10:51 PM 

[linked image]

For lovers of royal blue ********!

 
 
American Way

Comfortably Plump

April 29 2011, 11:16 PM 

Hi StevefromSE5: I did a search for comfortably+plump+queen and this came up. Same story and I'm sure if other papers were digitalized it would have been covered throughout the States. American Way

I have only heard the words pleasingly plump for a woman on her way to becoming a frump. happy.gif

CLICK

CLICK

CLICK


 
 
Rob94

Re: Classics from the Comics

May 30 2011, 3:07 PM 

A few notes if I may about Winker Watson in The Dandy. Mr Creep was not in fact the headmaster but a class teacher, the HM was a portly chap. There were essentially two series of the cartoons. Series one was all about Winker never having been caned (shows how much things have changed - not getting whacked was seen as unusual) and he used a variety of ruses to avoid it, often at the last minute as the cane was about to descend. These varied, but I remember him faking a nosebleed with red ink, claiming he had been bent over too long, just as the cane was about to strike. Often it involved getting Mr Creep in trouble with the headmaster.

Series two introduced his younger brother Wally as a new beginner at the school, with Winker being instructed by his parents to look after him and see he didn't get into trouble. Wally made plenty of trouble for Winker and in the very first episode Winker got his first caning across the seat of his shorts as the price for saving Wally from the same fate. After that the "never been caned" theme disappeared and most episodes ended with Winker getting caned because of Wally.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

June 12 2011, 10:59 PM 

This will hurt more.... We will see after the execution. Good article as well IMHO to read considering the date.


CLICK




 
 

Relevance of CP in comics to children

January 10 2012, 6:45 PM 

What a fascinating thread and thank you for starting it. As a child in the 50s and 60s I was very familiar with the Beano and Dandy. I enjoyed seeing the naughty kids getting caned or spanked in the stories. But then as pointed out here, corporal punishment in schools and at home was the norm. So we were well-used to it. Not only that but kids could and did get punished in public by members of the public when they deserved it. I speak from experience and was reminded of a particular incident by the Little Devil story which appears on 6th Sept 2010. It has a particular resonance for me because the boy getting a spanking from Parky could have been me. At the age of 7 or 8 I got into naughtiness in a local park. I ran through a flower bed with my older brother and a friend and ruined a swathe of blooms. Unfortunately for me, the park keeper was nearby and saw us. We never even saw him coming until a large hand descended on my shoulder and grabbed me while the other pair escaped. He sat down on a park bench beside the ruined flowerbed, gave me a good telling off and before I realised what was happening I was across his knee with my pants down and getting my bare bottom smacked. Two old ladies were sitting on the bench and they tut-tutted and said what a naughty boy I was and congratulated the park keeper on doing his civic duty. I ended up with a very sore bottom and as far as I was concerned, I got exactly what I deserved. Needless to say, I didn't tell my parents or I'd have got a second dose of the same medicine. I learned my lesson and was always careful in that park from then on. Can you imagine that park keeper's behaviour being tolerated in our modern society now? Looking back, he did exactly the right thing. Times have changed and for the worst in my humble opinion.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 11 2012, 3:17 PM 

Attention Deficit Disorder. This gets their attention.

CLICK

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 23 2012, 3:00 AM 

Commons concerning the headmaster of a school who had caned some of his male scholars who were caught kissing some of the girls, beforethe school vacation. Where a kiss is an adventure.It may get a frown of censureFrom those who preach the virtue of abstaining, but if the lass is willing and her lip-reaction thrilling, then a kiss is worth a cut or two of caning.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/printArticlePdf/39097717/3?print=n

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 26 2014, 10:22 AM 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread (quite a while ago now) scenes depicting the corporal punishment of girls are much rarer in British comics than scenes depicting the corporal punishment of boys, and where they do appear, it is nearly always in comics that were aimed at both boys and girls - the scenes are very rare indeed in the comics that were specifically aimed at girls. These also tend to be harder to get nowadays - most collectors focused on the general comics, or the boys comics, and girls comics have been less preserved.

But I have just come across a two page spread that I felt should definitely be shared. It doesn't show actual corporal punishment of a girl, but I think it's pretty safe to say we know what has happened 'off-panel'.

The spread appears in Judy of 30th January 1960. It is part of a regular feature of the time that showed (or at least claimed to show) the childhood's of famous women. No sources are given for information, but I think it can be safely assumed they made some effort to be accurate, given these women were often still alive. In other words, it's not pure fiction, but is based on fact.

Of particular interest, I think, to some people here will be the name of the school the person attended - c.1914-1924 (she was very coy about her date of birth, so these dates are rough).

Judy3001196028_zpsd66e1aef.gif

Judy3001196029_zpsde1f2e09.gif

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 26 2014, 12:51 PM 

Hi Dean

Thank you very much for posting this. Interestingly, and probably unsurprisingly, in the book "Redlands in retrospect : the story of Redlands from its founding in 1884 to the retirement of Miss Roseby in 1945" (published in 1983) there is no mention of CP. Miss Roseby (the owner and Headmistress) came over as a remarkable person, enlightened in many ways for the era, and particularly for her skill in keeping the school going during the Depression.

It does however raise the question as to the use of CP in private girls' (particularly elite) schools in Australia. In the histories of boys' schools there is usually some mention of CP, hardly surprising as it was more or less universal. In contrast the histories of girls' schools that I have read do not mention CP. Do you have any knowledge of the policies and practices of such schools?


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 27 2014, 1:52 AM 

Hello Dean Clarke,

Thank you for a most interesting contribution. I think that in 1960 in the UK most of the likely readers of Judy would have been well aware what being 'dealt with' by the Headmistress would have involved, given the classic pained facial expression and hand tucked under arm depicted in the frame with the Headmistress's door in the background. Even in 1980 this stance was still used by the entertainment media to depict girls post a caning on the hand. Although Cathy Hargreaves found sufficient comfort in merely clutching her opposing arm without fully embedding her hand she did only get two strokes. Perhaps poor Anona Winn suffered a more severe fate! sad.gif

As the date of Anona Winn's caning would, as you note, have been some time before 1924 (around 1921 if we take the frames of the 'Judy' account as chronological and the DoB given in the Independent' obituary) we can reasonably assume that neither Buffy(1) nor Buffy(2) is likely to recall the event and posit that Anona was actually caned bent over the Headmistress's desk with her knickers in a, ahem, errm, twist, for which small mercy we may all be truly thankful!

Despite past unpleasantness here I hope very much that you'll find it possible to respond to the query in the latter part of Oliver Sydney's above contribution. I recall a very clever and impressive graphic depicting the availability of corporal punishment as a sanction in (unnamed) non-government schools in Victoria from 1980 to 2007, which showed a couple of Girls' Schools still retaining the possibility of such punishment in 2007.

 
 

CP in girls' comics

January 27 2014, 12:05 PM 

My sister used to get "Tammy" magazine and there was a realistically drawn strip about a poor orphan girl in service at a big house with a disabled girl of her own age plus a malevolent butler (Pickering) who wielded a mean cane:

http://tammycomic.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/no-tears-for-molly.html

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: CP in girls' comics

January 27 2014, 4:48 PM 

Hello neilfrommanc,

Well researched, what an amazing find! Bondage and sadism in a comic for young girls! Can it really have been the practice in 1926 for Butlers to bind young servant girls by their wrists to metal rings set in the wall before caning them or to lock them in the stocks? I think not! I wonder what the readers made of those lurid illustrated accounts?

 
 
KK

Re: Classics from the Comics

January 27 2014, 6:44 PM 

Forget Tammy. What about the circus animals? Such cruelty.

 
 
KK

Correction

January 27 2014, 6:51 PM 

Molly not Tammy.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 2 2014, 6:37 AM 

Thank you very much for posting this. Interestingly, and probably unsurprisingly, in the book "Redlands in retrospect : the story of Redlands from its founding in 1884 to the retirement of Miss Roseby in 1945" (published in 1983) there is no mention of CP. Miss Roseby (the owner and Headmistress) came over as a remarkable person, enlightened in many ways for the era, and particularly for her skill in keeping the school going during the Depression.

This doesn't surprise me, unfortunately. Histories of boys' schools tend to mention corporal punishment. Histories of girls' schools don't.

It does however raise the question as to the use of CP in private girls' (particularly elite) schools in Australia. In the histories of boys' schools there is usually some mention of CP, hardly surprising as it was more or less universal. In contrast the histories of girls' schools that I have read do not mention CP. Do you have any knowledge of the policies and practices of such schools?

There's an ongoing Royal Commission into institutional child abuse in Australia at the moment, and some of the people I've obtained information from in the past has asked me to be very careful how I use it while this is happening - not because what they did was abusive according to the standards of the time, or even to current standards in law (if I found any evidence of abuse, I would make it available to the Commission, and also probably would not discuss it) but because it could at least muddy the waters. So I'll be general. I'm also not going to address recent history at the moment, although some of what I will write does bear on that.

It's easier for me to get information from Victoria than other states, so while I suspect a lot of what I have found here is true across much of the rest of Australia, and I do have some evidence for that I can't be as confident of it.

First of all, let's make the distinction between different forms of corporal punishment. In most girls private schools, especially larger ones, a teacher was relatively free to disipline her own classroom (and nearly all these teachers were women) as she liked. This meant that in most girls private schools here at some stage, there was probably some form of minor corporal punishment in use - a ruler across the hand, seems to have been more common than anything else, but a slipper or something similar, or simply the use of the hand to smack or spank, was tolerated, especially if it was used sparingly. Regular use would have been a different matter unless it was expressly allowed.

Secondly, there was a strong impact from the religious background of a school.

The types of schools we are talking about here, tend to fall into one of two categories - schools that were established as 'Church schools' right from the beginning of their existence (in the terminology used in Victoria up until quite recently, these were Public Schools - but that term has become very muddied more recently, and today is mostly used to describe government schools, except in a few very specific historical cases) and schools that were established by individuals or very small groups and which became Church-affiliated later in their existence. Virtually all independent schools are associated with a religious group today, but quite a lot of them weren't officially to begin with. It's just that a private school established by an individual was likely to shut down when its original founder retired or died, unless it managed to find a Church to formally affiliate with - and sometimes they weren't too fussy about who they affiliated with - schools that were full of Anglicans and which had been run by an Anglican, might well affiliate with the Presbyterians if the Anglican Church said it wasn't interested, but the Presbyterians were). This tended to happen in the early part of the twentieth century.

In non-Church affiliated private girls schools, the decision as to whether or not corporal punishment on an official, serious level (such as the cane) should be used tended to be made by the Headmistress. Some chose to use it. Some didn't. There is some link between the socio-economic class of the pupils and whether or not it was likely to be used. Schools that were set up to try and capture upper class girls tended to be less likely to use such methods, because they felt they should their pupils like ladies. Schools that were aiming themselve at the aspirational middle class were more likely to use it, partly because they felt they were dealing with a less refined intake who needed firmer handling, partly because they were also more worried about making sure their girls could have careers, and that required serious self discipline to be developed - you could not allow them just to coast.

In Church affiliated girls schools, things were a little different - because the Headmistress had less autonomy. Now, in general - and I stress this is a generalisation - the Catholic Church tended to allow its Headmistresses (normally Nuns) a great deal of autonomy, and the Anglican Church tended to allow their Headmistresses and their governing boards more independence than the Presbertyrians, Methodists, or Baptists did. The Catholic schools tended to be convent schools, run by nuns, as were a few of the Anglican schools (although most of these had lay staff). The use of corporal punishment in Catholic girls schools was common - it was probably used in over half of them, although it may have been used rarely. It was relatively common in Anglican girls schools (although only in a minority) - if the Headmistress wanted it, she only had to convince her governors, not the entire Church heirarchy (and sometimes the Governors seem to have deliberately wanted it used, and gone looking for Heads who were willing to do so). It was much rarer in any of the other religious groupings. If it was used in those schools, it was generally either because a very forceful Headmistress who they didn't want to lose, really insisted on it, or it was used in the face of very strong parental pressure, but in those cases it was seen as exceptional, and against general policy. A specific exception was being made. In the Anglican schools and the Catholic schools, it was perfectly within policy even if policy did not require it.

In terms of practices, the use of the cane on the hand seems to have been by far the most common method, but there were certainly exceptions, and caning on the bottom was probably the second most common method.

Again, social class played some role here - the more 'genteel' the school in terms of its pupil intake, the less likely it was to cane on the bottom. I've even got a couple of reports of one school where scholarship girls were caned on the bottom, while non-scholarship girls were caned on the hands as a general rule (leading to a complaint from one mother that her daughter had been 'caned in a particularly undignified way as if she was a draper's daughter, rather than the daughter of a prominent citizen'). Why the difference? A couple of ideas there - part of it seems to have been 'doing what they are used to', partly related to the level of fuss parents might cause.

There is one - no longer existing - girls school in Melbourne where I actually have what I consider reliable information (including an interview with a now very elderly assistant mistress) that they used the cane on the bare bottom, but that school was unusual in a number of ways - it was also known for its encouragement of nude sea-bathing! It had a rather radical outlook.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 2 2014, 6:38 AM 

Well researched, what an amazing find! Bondage and sadism in a comic for young girls! Can it really have been the practice in 1926 for Butlers to bind young servant girls by their wrists to metal rings set in the wall before caning them or to lock them in the stocks? I think not! I wonder what the readers made of those lurid illustrated accounts?

Thank you neilfrommanc, for bringing the comic in Tammy to my attention. I'm attaching a reply to Another Lurker's comment, because I think it works better in response to what he wrote.

I have only a small number of Tammy's available for study and I've been taking a look at them. I was aware of the No Tears for Molly strip from looking at them previously but none of the ones I have available to check contain any clear corporal punishment (as opposed to what I would term physical assaults, or various forms of 'abuse'), so I hadn't paid a lot of attention to them.

But I think it's worth commenting on what I have noticed going through the issues of Tammy - and that is, that it contains far more stories that related to children - especially girls - being mistreated - than is the norm in other English girls comics of the 1970s and 1980s. It looks very much like they wanted to be 'grittier' than the others to me - and No Tears for Molly fits into that.

For example, I'm looking through issue #1 at the moment.

We have a strip called The Girls of Liberty Lodge which involves a young idealistic teacher setting up a relatively discipline free school (not to the extent of something like Summerhill, but in that direction). This is the first issue, so we first of all see the school she's come from - she's sacked for going to see a girl who has been put in the 'Punishment Room' for a week, after a public trial in front of the whole school - not physical punishment, but it's presented as truly tyrannical (and a lot of people might agree)

Then we have Slaves of War Orphan Farm - children evacuated from the cities in World War II escape the bombings and find themselves being used as slave labour on a farm. References to the fact they will be leathered or feel the buckle end of a belt buckle as well as children having their heads bashed together, are in the strip.

Then Dawn and Kerry: Double for Trouble where a girl is physically attacked by a man. Then My Father, My Enemy set in 1901 where a girl realises her wealthy father is a cruel tyrant when it comes to his workers, and he winds up slapping her across the face for defying him. And Glen where a girl is slapped across the face for stopping a man beating a dog, and then again later for stopping him from drowning it.

And finally No Tears for Molly where we are introduced to Pickering and Molly and the first thing he does is slap her across the face and the last thing in the strip has him seizing her by the ear.

This is all in the very first issue of Tammy - and I thought it might be useful context in considering what we've been shown about No Place for Molly. It fits in pretty neatly, really.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 2 2014, 6:43 AM 

I've recent gained access to a large number of Judy's - this is where the strip about Anona Winn, I shared earlier came from - and I am slowly going through them looking for references to corporal punishment of schoolgirls. As I have said, while such scenes are very common in the comics aimed at boys, and you still get a reasonable number of scenes of girls being punished (much less than those involving boys) in the comics that were not specifically aimed at a particular sex, and more so in 'funny' comics, it seems extremely rare to find scenes in the serious comics aimed at girls. So rare, than in looking at literally thousands of comics before, I am not sure I have ever seen one. Heard of them, yes, but seen a clear reference - no (except for the non-fictional Anona Winn strip)

Until now.

The following strip appeared in Judy of April 16th, 1960. As it says in the brief introduction, this strip - The Lass of Flinty Farm concerned a girl from a decidedly working class background, has found herself attending a Grammar School where most of the other pupils are clearly middle or upper class, and some are extreme snobs. So are some of the staff.

Judy16041960p6_zps0711a25e.gif

Judy16041960p7_zpsca6f63df.gif

A couple of things I noticed. Most of the time (though certainly not always) depictions of canings in boys comics or the comics aimed at both boys and girls depicted canings that were deserved, and certainly did not depict them as unduly severe. I don't think I've eve seen a case where a child is presented as needing medical attention until now. Other issues of Judy I've looked at also contain a couple of references to girls being caned in 'story pages' rather than comics - pages where you just have a printed, serialised story - again, those canings are depicted as unreasonably severe, largely undeserved, and coming from a tyrannical teacher. This is what I am seeing in Judy, when I am finding these references for the first time. And it's very much in contrast to what I have seen in boys or 'coed' comics. It's also clear, of course, that the girl in this case was caned on the hand. Hand canings are not unknown in the boy or 'coed' comics, but it's far more often in those for the canings to be on the bottom.

I am hoping at some stage I will encounter comics where a girl is shown to have been caned fairly and reasonably, and where she is caned on the bottom in one of these girl's comics - perhaps I will find this in the Judy's I am slowly going through. Though I am not sure I expect to.

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 3 2014, 12:26 PM 

Hello Dean

Thank you very much for your comprehensive and informative answer to my question. Very much appreciated. I did note in one history that a particular headmistress in the 1930s was referred to as 'strict'. When I read it I wondered whether the author was inferring anything in particular.

Thank you also for the further comics. One famous Australian comic that no doubt you are familiar with is Ginger Meggs, popular since the 1920s. It certainly featured CP in the past, though I doubt girls were included. The only relic of CP is that even in the current episodes the teacher is named Mr Canehard.

There are some examples of recent comics in this blog: http://mrgray.id.au/category/humour/page/2/

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 4 2014, 12:56 AM 

Hello Dean Clarke,

Thank you for the three very interesting and informative posts on February 2nd above.

The editorial stance of 'Tammy' that you describe is most strange. It is difficult to understand at what level the themes you note might have appealed to girls in the 1970s. I would say that by that era 'grittiness' was conspicuous by its absence from the lives of most children. Possibly the Comic's proprietors saw that as a marketing opportunity, but an undesirable one IMHO if it involved the sort of falsification evident in 'No Place for Molly'!

As for poor Jill and her unjustified caning in 'Judy', well they always were a funny lot in Keswick(dale). It comes of having two outdoor equipment shops per head of population! happy.gif

 
 
jd 19

Tammy

February 12 2014, 12:46 PM 


Hallo Dean Clarke and A_L

Ah, a trip down memory lane happy.gif I was a reader of the Tammy, sadly none of my copies have survived but I can well remember the `brutality` of some of the stories. Girls did indeed seem to get a hard time.

While I can recall the violence shown to the heroine of the stories I cannot recall any spc, in fact I don`t think there was many stories based around a `normal` school. There was a story based on a reformatory school but I don't remember your average primary/secondary getting much of a mention at all.

The editorial stance of 'Tammy' that you describe is most strange. It is difficult to understand at what level the themes you note might have appealed to girls in the 1970s. I would say that by that era 'grittiness' was conspicuous by its absence from the lives of most children.

Well they appealed to me happy.gif At this time I was also reading the adventures of the girls at Malory Towers and St Clares. I couldn`t identify with rich girls going to boarding school any more than I could with some poor maid getting knocked about by a sadist butler. It was all fiction to me!!


 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 13 2014, 9:15 PM 

I've been through over 250 issues of Judy in the last couple of weeks to put together this message. It was not a great hardship - up until now getting access to English "girl's" comics was difficult in comparison to others I'd explored and I was delighted to finally get access to so many. I expect to get access to some more - not just Judy's in the near future as well.
As I expected scenes involving the corporal punishment of girls in these comics are quite rare, but as I had never really found any before, finding any was marvellous. And I am just going to share some of the 'best' of these scenes here with a few comments.

Judy ran from 1960 until 1991 (when it was merged with Mandy. And many of its earliest strips were rerun in later years - after all, when you are selling to a demographic made up of children and teenagers, your audience refreshes itself over time, so most of your readers in the late 1970s would not have been reading your comic in the mid 1960s. And this brings me to the first potentially interesting point I would make - the mention of corporal punishment in girl's school I was able to find in Judy tend to come from strips fairly early in its run - the 1960s. While I certainly haven't read every single issue of Judy published, I've seen enough of a cross section that it should represent a reasonably fair sample, and checking my notes, I can find about 30 'references' in issues between 1961 and 1967, but in issues after 1975, 'references' are extremely rare - in fact, except for repeated strips from the early period, the only ones I can find are in a story concerning a school explicitly stated to exist in the early 19th century - contemporary references are gone. I don't have access at the moment to any issues between 1967 and 1975, so I can't say when the change happened - but it does seem a real change and it does seem notable. If, as I believe is reasonable to suppose, these comics had to have some connection to girl's everyday lives, maybe that says something about change in educational climate in that period.

Now - strips. I'm going to share a few.

The first strip I am sharing appeared in Judy of 16th August 1980. It is however a repeat of a strip from 15th April 1961. I don't have the earlier issue but can date it because I have the subsequent issues in both the initial run of 1961, and the repeated run of 1980. This first strip - an episode of Anya at Ballet School does not contain corporal punishment itself - but sets the scene for subsequent strips, and it does contain the teaser right at the end - which in 1980, when this reprint occurred may have been more dramatic than it was in 1961. Anya at Ballet School has a somewhat similar theme to The Lass of Flinty Farm shown earlier - a girl from a poorer background finds herself attending a school aimed at a higher socio-economic status, and certain people do their best to try and get rid of her because they don't think she belongs there.

Judy1608198001_zps503721e7.gif
Judy1608198002_zps6541c77e.gif

Now, we get to the actual caning that occurs in the strip the following week - 22nd April 1961.

Judy2204196101_zpsa65c036c.gif

Judy2204196102_zpsd944aec8.gif

Two things of note - again the caning is depicted as not particularly deserved. And there is express mention of the rarity of caning a girl ("I have not had to cane a pupil for years").

Now we jump over the next issue, and we come to Judy of 6th May 1961. And we're still looking at Anya at Ballet School

Judy0605196101_zpsf0db31c8.gif

Judy0605196102_zps0fcf2a7b.gif

Once again, the caning is not deserved - although in this case, the Head's mistake is somewhat understandable - Anya has been set up. And that brings us to the next issue - 13th May 1961.

Judy1305196101_zps2228b1b5.gif

Judy1305196102_zps426d4d32.gif

Finally - somebody is going to get caned who actually deserves it. I just wish we knew exactly what happened to Gerda - as Anya got four strokes when she was considered guilty of the theft that Gerda had framed her for, I hope Gerda got at least six of the best.

I mentioned earlier that these strips from 1961 were reprinted in Judy in 1980 - and the first strip I shared is from the 1980 reprint because I don't have the relevant issue for 1961. But in the case of the other strips, I have both the 1961 originals and 1980 reprints and that brings up an interesting point - the 1980 strips have been edited slightly.

I'm not going to share the whole strips again - I'm worried about the amount of images that are downloading in this discussion already - just clips from them to show the edits.

The first one is quite minor. 1961 above. 1980 below.
AnyaComparison01_zps185b71f6.gif
This may not constitute a true edit - it looks like Header texts like that were reset each time - but I think it is interesting that the word caned has been changed to punished - as if to soften things. The caning, however, still appears in the strip. However, that brings up to the next comparison from one of the subsequent strips. 1961 on left - 1980 on right.

AnyaComparison02_zps6612050d.gif

The reference to the fact that Anya is caned is edited out. And it looks like the cane has been partly erased from the picture as well, not that it was all that visible to start with (note, this particular frame is also dated 1980, indicating a note was made to show there had been an edit). In 1980, were they more reluctant to show the caning? They couldn't edit the previous one without a lot more work. This one is easier to edit.

Does Gerda still get what she deserves? It's a little more ambiguous. From the 1980 reprint.

AnyaComparison03_zps69b6e048.gif

The Headmistress is standing there with cane in hand, saying Gerda will pay dearly for what she has done. Gerda is turned away with her head in her hands - and while Anya was not caned for theft in this updated version of the strip, it's only been a couple of weeks since she was caned for skipping prep, so readers would generally be aware the cane is an option at her school, so I don't think it's in any way hidden that Gerda is going to be caned. But I also don't think it's necessarily as clear as it would have been to readers in 1961 where Gerda is facing punishment for setting up Anya in a way that got Anya caned.

Incidently, the Principal also comes across as fairer as a result of the edits as well - she hasn't actually caned Anya for the theft in this 1980 reprint, but rather just gave her a day's grace in which to return the stolen item!

I do have more to share, but this message is long enough for now. So I'll be sharing some more in days to come.

 
 

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 14 2014, 10:15 PM 

Obviously it's not reasonable to apply today's politically correct values to long gone times, but there are a few things that are rather shocking with hindsight. It seems that children's comics, especially those aimed primarily at boys, were obsessed with corporal punishment. Quite why they thought boys would be interested in stories about caning isn't clear as it was something we feared, but most boys bought these comics on a weekly basis as I did.

There was pretty much no edition of comics like The Dandy that didn't contain at least one caning or slippering and one feature I remember was entirely based around caning - Winker Watson. It's hard to imagine now but he was notorious for being the only boy in his school who had never been caned. No wonder we became known as a nation of spankos happy.gif

Regarding the Anya At Ballet School strip it's impossible to think of a headmistress saying "I should never have taken a gypsy into my school" now, but presumably it wasn't perceived as in any way wrong back then. Another shocker I remember is stories about "cannibals" boiling white missionaries alive in a pot. What on earth were they thinking of putting this stuff in a children's comic?

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 14 2014, 10:50 PM 

Hello Dean Clarke,

A fascinating and minutely researched contribution, thank you very much indeed.

The subtle 1980 censorship of references to caning is most interesting. Although corporal punishment in UK state schools still had a few years of legality to run, the climate of opinion was certainly flowing against it in certain vocal elements of the teaching profession and media.

But how curiously the censorship was carried out! Why was what you refer to as 'the teaser right at the end' left intact in the 16th August 1980 reprint? It contains the word 'caned' and yet this same word is edited out of the 'headline' of the subsequent week's reprinted episode of the series and replaced by 'punished'. Did an outraged STOPP representative get in touch with the publishers of 'Judy' and complain about the inclusion of caning after the 16th August 1980 edition came out?

There would then probably have been insufficient time to get the images redrawn for the next week's publication date of the episode depicting Anya's first caning for missing school work to do extra ballet practice but the 'headline' could be and was reset. Rather hurriedly it would appear, because the second 'C' in 'practice' is in the wrong size text and this wasn't picked up. And why was it felt necessary to reset in larger type and asterisk and capitalise the headline? A gesture of defiance perhaps, having meekly given in over the wording.

And so to Anya's second caning, for the suspected theft, and subsequent events. In the 1980 reprinted episodes clearly the words 'She gave the girl four stinging cuts with her cane' would have to be excised from the caption of the first relevant image, in Madame Marovani's office, if there was now deemed to be a need to censor caning, similarly with the partial redrawing to almost obliterate the image of the cane on the desk being picked up by Madame Marvoni.

But why wasn't the second relevant image, where Madame Marvoni says 'I'm sorry Anya, Gerda will pay dearly for this' redrawn to remove the cane being held by Madame Marvoni? Perhaps because with the effective removal of any indication that Anya had already been caned for the theft it was deemed that no physical punishment was implicit in the scene, Madame Marvoni could equally well be holding a blackboard pointer. Thus the expense of altering yet another drawing could justifiably be avoided.

Oh dear, the Another_Lurker imagination is running wild again, happy.gif and sadly I doubt that we shall ever know the truth.

The censorship of references to caning and similar corporal punishment practices in media for children is nothing new of course. Mustn't frighten the kiddies, must we! happy.gif I am almost sure that there have been previous mentions here, possibly with reference to the works of Enid Blytton. Indeed, I've seen a reference elsewhere to reprints of the 'Malory Towers' books, mentioned by jd 19 in her February 12 2014, 12:46 PM contribution above, being so dealt with. However, not surprisingly I have never read that series, so I have no idea if there was any CP there to start with. Can you perhaps recall if this was the case in the editions you read, jd 19?

And finally, I was interested to note that after her first caning Anya favoured the 'Cathy Hargreaves' technique (yes, I do realise that for chronological accuracy the names should be reversed happy.gif) for trying to reduce the pain of a caned hand, palm clasped to the outside of the opposite upper arm. A contrast to the technique used by the 'Judy' version of Anona Winn where the caned hand is tucked into the opposite armpit, as discussed in my January 27 2014, 1:52 AM post above. It would be interesting to know if anyone here who was caned on the hand carried out any research into the relative merits of these and other methods of pain reduction.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 15 2014, 1:35 AM 

Hello Rob94,

Some interesting stuff in your above contribution, thank you.

Regarding the depiction of corporal punishment, specifically caning, in comics in earlier years you say:

Quite why they thought boys would be interested in stories about caning isn't clear as it was something we feared.

I think that you are looking at the situation from an adult viewpoint. Comics were for children. From both memory of my own childhood and subsequent observations I don't believe that children view the sufferings of others in quite the way that adults do. Not surprising, as children are not miniature adults and adult experience has yet to make its mark on them.

Children, especially boys, will sometimes do things to adults, other children and animals which cause considerable pain, and which an adult would not normally do. If the same thing was done to them children would protest and signify their hurt very vigorously. But as it isn't happening to them they are not deterred from doing it to others. Further, and especially as regards school CP, children can in some instances find the sufferings of others interesting, even amusing.

You and your schoolmates may possibly have been by chance a group of saintly individuals free from this childish weakness. but can you honestly say that when other children were being subjected to corporal punishment , while fearing it yourself, you didn't find the spectacle, or the knowledge, of someone else getting it interesting and on occasion amusing or entertaining? Most children certainly did when I was at school.

I am quite certain that when I got my oft recounted (I'll spare you all this time though happy.gif) leg slapping with other boys and girls in front of the next class up the members of that class, other than those in the queue with me, enjoyed the show. I had a grandstand view of their reactions as I waited for my turn and it certainly made the event more embarrassing for me. Perhaps I was the exception, but I doubt it. When I was bent over a desk at the front, facing the class for my only slippering, did I see concerned looks and apprehension? Did I heck! I'm quite sure most of them were quite pleased to see that goody-goody Another_Lurker getting his bottom whacked!

Similarly when a boy or girl got whacked in class I didn't generally avert my gaze or evince symptoms of sympathy, and nor did other children not involved. We watched with interest. What would they get, how would they get it, would they cry? And if the teacher and/or the unfortunate recipient put on a particularly good show, we certainly sometimes found it amusing. I've postulated in posts elsewhere in the Forum that some teachers actually used this as a means of keeping the lid on things. Bread and circuses so to speak. An implicit 'behave, and I'll reward you with a good entertaining whacking when some less sensible unfortunate does something silly'.

And I think that's exactly why some comics, particularly those aimed at boys, went in for corporal punishment themes. They knew their readers were not averse to seeing CP, provided it wasn't them getting it. Clearly it was different with comics for girls, or at least those reviewed here, 'Tammy' being a possible exception. I'm no psychologist, but I don't think I am mistaken in saying that girls become interested in the feelings and emotions of others well before boys. Girls of comic reading age, especially older girls, would be likely to recognise that the feelings and emotions of those corporeally punished were likely to be negative. So maybe in most girls' comics corporal punishment was avoided unless it could be an integral part of the story to signal something negative, injustice perhaps, as in the story of Anya in the 'Judy' extracts linked above by Dean Clarke. As Dean notes in his February 2 2014, 6:43 AM contribution above, corporal punishment in girls' comics is often depicted as:

unreasonably severe, largely undeserved, and coming from a tyrannical teacher.

You also say:

Another shocker I remember is stories about "cannibals" boiling white missionaries alive in a pot. What on earth were they thinking of putting this stuff in a children's comic?

The adult viewpoint again I think. Or clearly you weren't raised on those childrens' classics, Grimm's Fairy Tales! happy.gif Children just love a bit of ridiculously violent violence. Whack and splatt cartoons, the early Doctor Who episodes, computer zap 'em games etc. My own feeling is that by quite an early age most of them learn to recognise the difference between the real and the imaginary, but they still enjoy the imaginary. And often they continue to do so well into adult life. Did you ever encounter a werewolf or a demon committing mayhem in real life? No, nor did I. But just look at the incidence of such entities in films and TV series!

 
 
jd 19

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 15 2014, 2:34 AM 



Hallo A_L

I am afraid I don`t know if there was any scp in the first editions of Malory Towers, my editions are late 1960s and early 1970s making them 3rd/4th reprints.

There is not any actual scp in my editions but there is reference to cp.

A form/house mistress wishes she could use a hairbrush to chastise the girls. It is implied this was something she may have done in the past but was no longer an option

I could be entirely wrong but I don`t get the feeling this has been censored. The story just does not lend itself to an incidence of scp, the mistress is simply musing about the high jinks of the girls.

The girls threaten to use a hairbrush on another girl (usually the very spoilt Gwendoline Mary Lacey) This never happens, although the main heroine of the books, Darrell Rivers, does slap Gwen across the face (now a bit of violence IS something I can relate to!)

There is a reference to a male spanking a female. Alicia has a very annoying cousin June who come to stay in the holidays. June annoys Alicia`s brother very much, back at school Alicia tells the girls her brother has both threatened and spanked June with a hairbrush.

Enid Blyton obviously had a bit of a `thing` for hairbrushes. I don`t recall any cp references in the St Clare`s series.

Rob 94 mentioned his surprise that a headmistress would suggest she should not have taken a gypsy into the school. Something similar occurred in the St Clares books. A circus girl joined the school, there is a discussion about the wisdom of taking on such a girl to study amongst `nicely brought up girls` The headmistress in this case knew her charges where capable of accepting people of a less privileged background so all was fine. It did help of course that the girl had a wealthy father who wanted her brought up properly, she wasn`t just any old circus girl happy.gif



 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 15 2014, 3:09 PM 

Hello jd 19,

What an amazingly prompt response to my query about En id Blyton's Malory Towers books. Please forgive me for noting its timing and speculating that you may possibly be another insomniac with an interest in the subject of this Forum. If so you are not alone, as examination of the timing of past contributions will reveal. There are at least three others here, and that's just those of us on the Honorary Life Members list and resident in the UK! Of course we could all be one person under different pseudonyms, happy.gif but the sheer volume of the combined outputs at times should give the lie to that.

An interesting future thread there perhaps. Does an interest in School Corporal Punishment cause insomnia? Or possibly does insomnia cause an interest in SCP? I've certainly had a novel sleep pattern by choice since I could first display any sort of inclination in the matter. Hereditary I think, my Father was exactly the same. It certainly pre-dates my exposure to SCP, so perhaps the latter thread title would be best!

But I digress. You say of the mentions of CP in your editions of the Malory Towers:

En id Blyton obviously had a bit of a `thing` for hairbrushes. I don`t recall any cp references in the St Clare`s series.

At the end an interesting contribution attributing his first memory of slippering as a punishment to an En id Blyton book, Honorary Life Member prof.n says here:

Of course En id Blyton was revealed by her daughter to be a real spanko mother , who even cross questioned the nanny and then would regularly spank her daughter for all her faults.

Certainly spanking (or rather corporal punishment) by a variety of means and implements seems to feature in a number of the original editions of En id Blyton books. In modern editions this is apparently almost invariably removed or heavily modified. There are interesting discussions of this and other 'politically correct' amendments on the En id Blyton Society website, items A good spanking!! and Guide to what editions have been changed. are examples. I think it is in the former that I must have previously seen the reference to censorship of CP in Malory Towers books. It sounds as though your editions were the unexpurgated versions.

I believe that curiously references to canes and caning are rare in En id Blyton books, despite the cane being almost the 'trademark' implement of English CP. In the 'Why ?' thread, which has other references to En id Blyton, I speculate, in a piece of research I'd completely forgotten until now, that there may be only three references to caning in all her books for children, all in 'The Mystery of the Hidden House' where PC Goon gives Ern four strokes of the cane. This is not a judicial punishment, Ern(est) is PC Goon's nephew. I actually referred to Mr Goon, but Dean Clarke corrects me later in the thread.

However, while En id Blyton might nor have favoured canes it does seem from your comments on Malory Towers that she certainly favoured hairbrushes. I've always thought of hairbrushes as a very feminine choice of CP implement, and this would fit with girls school stories. The variety of hairbrush with a flat wooden backing to the business end and a handle was a favourite implement of some Mothers when I was a little lad, applied to the offender's bottom.

When I first got on-line in the days before the public web, when dial-up bulletin boards were all we had, amongst the first CP pictures I encountered were a set purporting to show female 'prison wardens' wielding a hairbrush on the bottoms of disrobed female 'delinquents', using the 'over the knee' posture. They were from a venerable US producer of adult spanking material. Quite innocent and charming really, by today's violent and graphic standards for that type of stuff. I must have copies on an old hard drive though goodness knows where. They could possibly be in my ancient PC XT or the slightly younger PC AT, but I haven't seen them on-line for years.

I'm surprised that in the Malory Towers book Alica's brother allegedly used a hair-brush to spank June. As I note above, I've always regarded the hairbrush as a feminine implement, though its recipients might be of either sex. Perhaps he was a bit of a wimp, or maybe he couldn't find a slipper and the hairbrush was all he had to hand. I do so hope that it was a large male type hairbrush, like that wielded by the lady 'prison wardens', not a dainty feminine one! happy.gif

Note: In older threads the author's name seems to be attracting those automatic advertising links which annoy me intensley when I have to switch on scripts to post, so in case it starts happening in this thread I've inserted a space into En id. I hope it does the trick!

 
 

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 15 2014, 3:19 PM 

Hi Another-Lurker

You make some valid points. You wrote

You and your schoolmates may possibly have been by chance a group of saintly individuals free from this childish weakness. but can you honestly say that when other children were being subjected to corporal punishment , while fearing it yourself, you didn't find the spectacle, or the knowledge, of someone else getting it interesting and on occasion amusing or entertaining? Most children certainly did when I was at school.

You are right of course, there was always a bit of frisson in the air when someone was caned, all the more so I'm ashamed to say when a girl, especially if she was a looker, was the recipient. It's hard to think back now and remember exactly how we felt about caning, on one level I think we felt it was wrong but on another still fascinating. I've always said that scp is something that fascinates me, but I'm still firmly against it if that makes sense.

I think one of the reasons it created a bit of a stir was that although I would guess there were possibly 5-10 canings a month (actually I have no real idea but it was probably around that) with somewhere in the order of 700 pupils that wasn't many as a percentage. It certainly wasn't one of those schools where there was a line of kids waiting to be whacked outside the headmaster's study every morning

I've said before that the way canings were handed out was unfair in my opinion. The real toe-rags, the kids who by the standards of the day deserved to be caned, hardly ever were. It was nearly always one silly incident that triggered it and previous good behaviour was not taken into account. One of the most unfair canings happened after a boy lent another boy his penknife. When he asked for it back the other boy teased him by not letting go of it. In the end he managed to snatch it back, but unfortunately the blade cut the other boy's hand. The headmaster read out the incident at assembly the next day and fully accepted it had been an accident, but that a boy had injured another pupil and therefore had to be punished stating "I gave him four strokes of the cane as hard as I jolly well could" before flouncing off stage gown flowing behind him.

Oh and no we were most certainly not saintly individuals happy.gif

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 17 2014, 9:37 AM 

Hello Rob94,

I am relieved to hear that you and your classmates (or at least the male ones happy.gif) were not above experiencing a certain frisson when someone, especially a girl, fell foul of what seems to have been the rather unfair CP regime at your school.

I'm sure you've mentioned this in the past, but my memory fails me. Were all canings carried out by the Headmaster or did someone else cane the girls? Did the target of the cane differ for boys and girls?

You describe your Headmaster

flouncing off stage gown flowing behind him

after announcing that a boy had been caned.

Yes, they certainly did make the most of those gowns as an aid to the impression of all-powerful authority didn't they! happy.gif

 
 

Re: Classics from the Comics

February 17 2014, 10:38 PM 

The Headmaster and his deputy only ever caned boys as far as I know. Girls were caned, rather less frequently, by the "Senior Mistress".

I would be interested to know from other people who attended a mixed sex school whether the post of Senior Mistress was common and if so was it an official position, in which case she would presumably have been paid extra, or just a courtesy title? In a mixed sex school it would have been logical if the Head and Deputy Head were of opposite sex, but in mine they were both men.

Talking to someone who attended the school a few years after I left he told me that the Deputy Head had retired. The Senior Mistress still didn't get the job though. I can't remember if he said the new DH was an existing member or staff or brought in from outside.

 
 
American Way

I'm Baaack Early

February 27 2014, 12:29 AM 

Cartoon. The Wichita daily eagle. (Wichita, Kan.), March 06, 1904,

CLICK

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: I'm Baaack Early

February 27 2014, 3:02 AM 

Hello American Way,

And welcome back, you have been sadly missed! One wonders if young Willie had at some stage travelled to England and found himself in a spot of bother resulting in an appearance before the Magistrates and an encounter with the birch! happy.gif Certainly his invention bears a close resemblance to the 'birching ponies' used in various parts of England to restrain and position young offenders being birched, and shown in this excellent page on the Corpun site.

Admittedly Willie's device included stocks to secure the wrists and ankles of the offender, whereas in England straps seem to have been more commonly used for this purpose. When Willie had a close encounter with his own device later on that fateful day we must hope that the Schoolmaster's wrath was somewhat diminished, and that unlike the unfortunate boy shown being birched in the first illustration on the above page, Willie got to keep his trousers on during his ordeal! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
jd 19

Re: Classics from the Comics

March 1 2014, 8:35 PM 

Hallo A_L

As noted

What an amazingly prompt response to my query about En id Blyton's Malory Towers books. Please forgive me for noting its timing and speculating that you may possibly be another insomniac with an interest in the subject of this Forum.

I do indeed keep somewhat odd hours! My haphardous sleeping pattern is inherited from my mother. My response would infact have been even quicker had I not done my usual trick of writing a reply then losing it all somewhere in the great internet wilderness. At that point I usually give up, but in the spirit of not being defeated I had another go:)

I'm surprised that in the Malory Towers book Alica's brother allegedly used a hair-brush to spank June. As I note above, I've always regarded the hairbrush as a feminine implement, though its recipients might be of either sex. Perhaps he was a bit of a wimp, or maybe he couldn't find a slipper and the hairbrush was all he had to hand. I do so hope that it was a large male type hairbrush, like that wielded by the lady 'prison wardens', not a dainty feminine one!

Oh my goodness you can`t suggest Alica`s brother may have been a wimp!! He would have been big. strong, dependable, decsion making, no nonsence sort of chap just like all other big brother types penned by Ms Blyton. To even think he could be a wimp is verging on sacralige happy.gif Besides we are told June simply adored him despite him giving her some first class spankings, had he been only capable of delivering second rate ones I`m sure June would have been a little less adoring happy.gif

But alas it would seem he did use a hairbrush and not even the manly type sad.gif but June`s own. What was the man thinking! Sensibly on that occasion June declines his rather pathetic offer and goes for a run instead. Presumably to give him time to get his act together and man up happy.gifhappy.gif

The `Hidden House` appears to be the only book from the adventure type series that mentions the cane. The Famous Five, Secret Seven, and all the other books in the Five Find-Outers series of which `Hidden House` is part, make no reference to caning. Yet in this one book we have Mr Goon ( he is referred to as Mr Goon or Old Clear Orf) caning the unfortuntue Ern and Pip tells us he has been caned on occasion by his father. Despite Pip and friends getting into all sort of trouble (in the interest of crime fighting of course!) never again does Pip mention his fear of receiving a caning from his father. The reference of caning in this one book does seem, to me at least, a little odd. Interestingly `Hidden house` often comes top of least enjoyable book when compared to other books in Blyton`s adventure type series.

I am not in favour of censoring books I would rather they stayed as orginally published, but I can see for a book to stay in print it must appeal to new generations of readers, if the way to do that is modernise and update then of course publishers are going to do so. In Enid Blyton books the currency was decimilsed, blazers became sweaters, the King became the Queen, all fairly subtle changes maybe not enough for the reader to believe the characters are from today (I don`t believe they have gone quite so far as introducing mobile phones and GPS I should imgine the mystery solving children are still reading maps or at least I hope they are!) but enough for them to have some sort of connection with the readers that the publishers thought might be lacking if the characters were kept in the 40`s nd 50`s of their creation. Of course bringing them realatively up todate means losing references to cp. No child today is going to swallow the caning of Ern by his uncle. Ern having now been dragged into the 21st century can be beaten by his uncle no more.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

March 2 2014, 8:57 AM 

The `Hidden House` appears to be the only book from the adventure type series that mentions the cane. The Famous Five, Secret Seven, and all the other books in the Five Find-Outers series of which `Hidden House` is part, make no reference to caning. Yet in this one book we have Mr Goon ( he is referred to as Mr Goon or Old Clear Orf) caning the unfortuntue Ern and Pip tells us he has been caned on occasion by his father. Despite Pip and friends getting into all sort of trouble (in the interest of crime fighting of course!) never again does Pip mention his fear of receiving a caning from his father. The reference of caning in this one book does seem, to me at least, a little odd. Interestingly `Hidden house` often comes top of least enjoyable book when compared to other books in Blyton`s adventure type series.
One of my long term projects is to try and explore corporal punishment in Enid Blyton's books, but it's a vast undertaking and an expensive proposition when it involves having to try and acquire early editions, so it's a long way from being complete. But I can add a bit of speculation to this discussion based on what I have done so far. I did read the Enid Blyton books myself as a child in the 1980s, and as a lot of my books were second hand, I did tend to read older editions.

JD has mentioned the Famous Five, Secret Seven, and Five Find Outers series, and I agree with him that the reference to caning in Hidden House seems to be the only reference to caning in any of those books (although PC Goon does threaten to put Ern over his knee and spank him in a later book) - but Enid Blyton did write one other significant 'adventure/mystery' series - they are normally referred to by fans today as 'The Barney Mysteries' (after one of their main characters) as 'The R Mysteries' because each of them had a title that contained the letter R ( The Rockingdown Mystery, The Rilloby Fair Mystery, The Ring O'Bells Mystery, The Rubadub Mystery, The Rat-a-Tat Mystery, and The Ragamuffin Mystery

) and this series has a couple of potential references, and two fairly clear ones.



There are four main characters in the R-Mysteries - Roger and Diana Lynton (brother and sister), their orphaned cousin (who attends a boarding school but lives with his cousins in the holidays) Snubby (real name Peter), and a boy named Barney who is initially homeless (he moves from fairground to fairground finding work where he can) although he eventually finds his father.

In a couple of the books, it is made clear that Snubby has a habit of annoying his uncle (Roger and Diana) who gives him a "whacking" on occasion. That is the term used - as opposed to spanking which is much more common in Blyton's works. This is not portrayed as abusive in any way - the clear implication is that Snubby deserves it, he just has a habit of doing things that lead to punishment. In two of the books, there's are much clearer references - in a couple of the books, the children are left in the care of Miss Pepper, who was Mrs Lynton's governess when she was young. Miss Pepper is a no-nonsense type - kind and caring, but she does not accept misbehaviour. In the first book, The Rockingdown Mystery, a tutor, Mr King, is hired during the holidays to teach the children (they had scarlet fever and missed some of their work during the year and are considered to be behind). And, at one point, Snubby manages to annoy Mr King:

Mr. King came in suddenly, looking as black as thunder. "Snubby! Did you tie that bit of string between the gateposts in the garden? Ive almost broken my ankle over it. Miss Pepper, Im going to buy a cane this afternoon - a nice thin one that goes wheeeee in the air."

"Do," said Miss Pepper. "Lend it to me to use some time, will you?"

Snubby didnt like this. It wasnt good when Miss Pepper and Mr. King both sided against him. He looked pained. "Im sorry. Mr. King. I was practising jumping. You must have fallen over my jumping-string."

"Snubby, that kind of thing is stupid and dangerous," said Miss Pepper. "I shall make you go without your pudding at dinner to-day. Ive told you before about dangerous tricks. I will not have them played."

"Aha - no pudding for you then," said Mr. King, pleased. "Serves you right, you little pest."

Snubby lost his high spirits and looked sulky. He couldn't do anything if both Mr. King and Miss Pepper were in league against him. There were all sorts of nasty punishments they could think up. He scowled at their retreating backs.


There's another reference in The Rubadub Mystery.

"Yes," said Miss Pepper, getting up from the seat. "We'll leave Snubby to cope with the mats."

Snubby snatched up the mat and tore indoors. He collided with the Professor and Miss Twitt inside the hall.

"Oh - sorry," said Snubby. "Frightfully sorry. I didnt see you. Are you going to the show? See you there, then!"

"What that boy wants is a good caning," said the Professor, annoyed. "Always rushing about at top speed, shouting at the top of his voice - no manners at all!"

"Ah, yes - but children will be children," said Miss Twitt. "Dear little things. I do so love them, don't you?"

"No, I don't," said the Professor. "I should like to drown them all."

And having made this remark loudly and with much feeling, he said no more, but walked slowly off with Miss Twitt, who jingled and jangled as she went, and left behind her a very strong scent of Sweet Pea perfume.


Enid Blyton does generally steer clear of mentioning the cane in her books, but there is another clear exception - a book called Six Bad Boys which she wrote in 1951 and which explored juvenile delinquency. It's very different from most of her books - much more realistic, and it gets into some darker areas than normal. Some of the boys have less than ideal homelives, for example.

It's notable that in writing this book, Blyton was influenced by a magistrate Basil (later Sir Basil) Henriques. Henriques was greatly concerned with the welfare of children, in particular poor children, and it seems likely that he asked Enid Blyton to write about Six Bad Boys in order to use her fame to publicise some real problems he saw.

Henriques favoured a fairly direct approach to childish misbehaviour:

BHCairnsPost11thMarch1943_zps6aaaaf7a.gi

(This article appeared widely in Australian newspapers and was presumably taken off a wire service from the UK - this particular example is from the Cairns Post of 11th March 1943).

In The Six Bad Boys, two of the boys, Bob and Tom get caught after sneaking into a cinema. When confronted by the Manager, they lie. This is the result:

That one, stupid lie was the beginning of a lot of trouble. The manager looked grim.

"Well, it's a pity you didn't own up," he said. "I'd have let you off with a scolding for being a couple of stupid little idiots. But if you're going to lie about it too, that's another thing. What are your names and addresses?"

Now the two boys were frightened. Bob blurted out a few hurried words.

"We didn't pay! We're sorry, sir!"

"Too late now," said the manager. "Now - your names, please."
The boys gave them, and also they had to give the name of their school. "I think your Headmaster will have to know of this too," said the manager. Bob and Tom felt aghast. Why had they been such idiots as to creep in without paying?

They went home in silence and parted at Tom's front gate. "Sorry I let you in for this," said Tom. "I hope you won't have too bad a time with your mother."

Both boys had a very bad time indeed, not only with their parents, but with the Headmaster as well. He was shocked that two of his boys should do such a thing. He gave Bob a caning, and Tom got one from his father. But his mother's lamentations and scoldings were far worse than the caning! And the hard words from Bob's mother were worse to bear too, than the Head's sharp strokes.


Around the time of the publication of Six Bad Boys Enid Blyton expressed concern about the fact that very young children would be reading it - because anything she wrote was going to be read by children as young as five or six, even if the target audience was significantly older. I wonder if that discouraged from including certain things in her books more often than she did.

I will come back to further discussion of Judy when I have time - and I've also gained access to a large digital collection of Tammy's now which will hopefully be of interest as well.
I am not in favour of censoring books I would rather they stayed as orginally published, but I can see for a book to stay in print it must appeal to new generations of readers, if the way to do that is modernise and update then of course publishers are going to do so. In Enid Blyton books the currency was decimilsed, blazers became sweaters, the King became the Queen, all fairly subtle changes maybe not enough for the reader to believe the characters are from today (I don`t believe they have gone quite so far as introducing mobile phones and GPS I should imgine the mystery solving children are still reading maps or at least I hope they are!) but enough for them to have some sort of connection with the readers that the publishers thought might be lacking if the characters were kept in the 40`s nd 50`s of their creation. Of course bringing them realatively up todate means losing references to cp. No child today is going to swallow the caning of Ern by his uncle. Ern having now been dragged into the 21st century can be beaten by his uncle no more.

Speaking as an historian, what worries me about this approach is it gives children a poorer understanding of history. How the world has changed. It goes far beyond Enid Blyton as well, and beyond books - in the most recent film/television adaptation of Goodbye, Mr Chips, Mr Chips is presented as opposed to corporal punishment, and watching it I get the impression it was because the makers were worried about having a 'loveable' character engaged in such things. To me, that seems a serious affront to a lot of dedicated and caring teachers of the past. It's one thing to express a view about what is and isn't acceptable today, it's quite another to impose modern values on the past.


 
 

Re: Classics from the Comics

March 2 2014, 3:57 PM 

Regarding Mr Chips he was not at all a loveable character at first, rather he was a stern, strict disciplinarian and very fond of using the cane. It was Kathy, his ill-fated wife, who brought out his kinder, softer side and showed him there were better ways of gaining the respect of boys than whacking their bottoms. It's been quite a while since I read the book, but if I remember correctly after his marriage he no longer used the cane.

 
 

Dean Clarke

Re: Classics from the Comics

March 3 2014, 5:22 AM 

Regarding Mr Chips he was not at all a loveable character at first, rather he was a stern, strict disciplinarian and very fond of using the cane. It was Kathy, his ill-fated wife, who brought out his kinder, softer side and showed him there were better ways of gaining the respect of boys than whacking their bottoms. It's been quite a while since I read the book, but if I remember correctly after his marriage he no longer used the cane.

I'm afraid your recollection is either faulty, or you read an already edited version (it wouldn't surprise me if that had happened to Goodbye Mr Chips.

In the book, I don't believe there's any indication that Mr Chips (Mr Chipping, actually, of course) was 'very fond of using the cane.' There are a couple of references to him using it:

And Chips also would be making his comments - to Mrs. Wickett when she entered his room to clear away the remains of the party. "A most- umph-interesting time, Mrs. Wickett. Young Branksome tells me- umph- that his uncle was Major Collingwood- the Collingwood we had here in- umph- nought-two, I think it was. Dear me, I remember Collingwood very well. I once thrashed him- umph- for climbing on to the gymnasium roof-to get a ball out of the gutter. Might have- umph- broken his neck, the young fool. Do you remember him, Mrs. Wickett? He must have been in your time."

and

There were several Latin quotations in it, as well as a reference to the Captain of the School, who, Chips said, had been guilty of exaggeration in speaking of his (Chips's) services to Brookfield. "But then - umph - he comes of an - umph - exaggerating family. I - um -remember - once - having to thrash his father - for it. [Laughter] I gave him one mark -umph - for a Latin translation, and he - umph - exaggerated the one into a seven! Umph - umph!" Roars of laughter and tumultuous cheers! A typical Chips remark, everyone thought.

But those seem to be the only two references, and there certainly seems to be no reference to it being his common practice. Yes, there is a clear statement that his wife influenced him in a positive way and that changed some of his style of discipline (in his early years his discipline is described as good enough and improving, was not absolutely reliable under all conditions whereas after:

The one thing he had always had, a sense of humor, blossomed into a sudden richness to which his years lent maturity. He began to feel a greater sureness; his discipline improved to a point at which it could become, in a sense, less rigid; he became more popular. When he had first come to Brookfield he had aimed to be loved, honored, and obeyedbut obeyed, at any rate. Obedience he had secured, and honor had been granted him; but only now came love, the sudden love of boys for a man who was kind without being soft, who understood them well enough, but not too much, and whose private happiness linked them with their own.

But it doesn't say he stopped caning - in fact, from the text, it seems likely he didn't - his wife is stated to have died in 1898, and as the first quote above indicates he caned Collingwood, who was at the school in 1902 (if he finished in 1902, his time at the school might have begun by 1898, but as there is no clue in the text to suggest he stopped caning, I doubt that really matters).

The point is, in the book - and in the 1939 film, Mr Chipping's use of the cane is not seen as disqualifying him from being a kind, and caring teacher. In the 1939 film, as far as I can recall (I haven't time to rewatch it again right now, and it's a couple of years since I last did) the only time he canes a boy is during the First World War when he uses it on a boy who has labelled the Masters at the school cowards for not being in the army - and he canes the boy before revealing that every one of the Masters has tried to join up but has been refused because of age or other reasons. The cane is not presented as a good thing, but there's no judgement about it either.

In the 2002 made-for-television film, however, things are very different. In that film, Mr Chipping is more or less ordered to cane a boy by the Headmaster after the boy goes on the roof of the school, and is almost serious injured.

It is made clear in the scene this is something he does not want to do. He stops the caning (on the hand) after only one stroke when it is clear he had originally intended more, and once the boy leaves the room, he hurls the cane across the room away from himself. A little later on, in response to serious bullying, he does come close to using the cane again, but doesn't, telling the Headmaster (who thinks he should have used it) that, in his experience, it never works.

The subtext seems pretty clear to me - and to me, it really does come across as a matter of trying to impose a twenty first century mindset on a work set in a different era.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 3 2014, 11:25 PM 

Hardly classics but drawings nonetheless.

19 states permit corporal punishment although their numbers dropped precipitously from 2006 to 2011. How many Booneville AK and Springtown TX are there? Even there a witness is required. Jeff Charles recently posted here and he was known for raising the issue of gender differences in that age group. He enriched the estimable Forum IMHO in his brief exchanges here.

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Although legal they are highly unlikely but safeguards are only recently being put in place where female witnesses are mandated. Bad publicity from places like Oxford, Alabama and and Booneville, Arkansas may have hastened changes. Thankfully, their handbooks are stating gender specific policies.

Paddling post-pubescent girls perpetuates salacious fantasies. I have posted only those drawings that do not show the girls in various degrees of undress.

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Another_Lurker

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 4 2014, 5:15 AM 

Hello American Way,

By combining years of experience with a process involving sacrificing virgins at full moon (and believe me, they're damned difficult to get round here happy.gif) I have deduced that the image you meant to display with the non-working sixth link in your above post was this one. I hope I'm right.

You say above:

Paddling post-pubescent girls perpetuates salacious fantasies.

And what's wrong with salacious fantasies? A substantial proportion of the world's population owes its existence to salacious fantasies! happy.gif

Seriously, I have to take issue with you over one of your points above. You say:

Bad publicity from places like Oxford, Alabama and and Booneville, Arkansas may have hastened changes.

As regards Oxford, Alabama I agree with you. The publicity was most certainly not favourable, indeed 'bad' is a pretty accurate description and as I remarked in the linked thread prom-paddling Principal Trey Holladay most definitely looked like a man who obviously knew he'd done wrong and was beginning to wish that he hadn't!

But apart from selling his soul to television and conniving in the machinations of a publicity conscious young lady, what did luckless Principal Steve Halter of Booneville High do wrong? He paddled Nancy Guillen by her own choice, in accordance with the school's rules and, as I demonstrated here, almost certainly in the presence of a witness.

The publicity was sensationalist rather than bad. The sight of Beauty Queen Nancy, Miss Booneville 2008, holding Halter's paddle and drawling 'Wow, I actually have your paddle in my hands' was rather overwhelming for many Americans, who really weren't used to seeing that sort of thing on their TV! happy.gif

So can we please substitute Springtown Texas or any one of several other notorious locations for Booneville, Arkansas. Places where teenage female students were paddled by male staff in contravention of decency and common sense, and often in contravention of school rules.

And my good deed for the day. It is possible that we have new readers who are unfamiliar with the annuls of Booneville and Nancy's paddling. Sadly many of the links in the thread I've linked no longer work. However:


Here is Nancy holding Principal Halter's paddle and looking quite pleased at the prospect of getting 3 swats with it on National TV, which she does a couple of days later - allegedly!

And here and here are videos currently on YouTube which cover the main elements of the story. I may be wrong but I have the impression that the current videos are better quality than some of the now removed earlier ones, but they do not cover quite as much of the story.

 
 
American Way

Re: Classics from the Comics

August 4 2014, 12:40 PM 

There is a saying show business that any publicity is good publicity but I feel this does not apply here. It up the ratings but brought to the attention hundreds of thousands Americans within the major media outlets something that they were hardly aware. The letters precipitated by this show are the best indicators. After the publicity engendered by another story the paddling at Bonifay High School in Holmes County there was an attempt in Tallahassee to have the state ban it. Granted it's different than Nancy's but there are enough parallels worth considering.

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