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Belt whipping

July 26 2012 at 11:08 AM
 

 
What is your opinion about leather belt whipping as corporal punishment? It is very popular in Poland.

 
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AuthorReply
KK

Re: Belt whipping

July 26 2012, 9:10 PM 

Jacob,

Is this what you have in mind? http://corpun.com/vidpli02.htm

As shown in the video, it looks like relatively harmless fun among the consenting.

Can you tell us otherwise, or more about the practice of belt whipping in Poland, and your personal experience?

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: Belt whipping

July 28 2012, 10:49 PM 

If I'm correctly informed, SCP was abolished in Poland in 1783.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Belt whipping

July 28 2012, 11:55 PM 

Hi Lotta,

You may well turn out to be correct, and I must say that I thought Poland had abolished School Corporal Punishment some considerable time ago.

However, The Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children says here with regard to Poland that:

Corporal punishment is prohibited in schools under article 40 of the Constitution (1997) which states: "No one may be subjected to torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. The application of corporal punishment shall be prohibited." A Regulation of the Minister of National Education and Sport on the framework statutes of public schools (2001) states that "penalties which inflict bodily harm or offend the personal dignity of the student are prohibited".

If they were still attempting to regulate school CP in 2001 perhaps things had slipped a little since 1783.

However, rather than school corporal punishment, I would think it very likely that, as KK suggests, Jacob is referring to the sort of adult initiation procedures demonstrated in KK's link. For better or for worse this estimable Forum has become a very broad church as regards CP, and anything now seems to go, from domestic through school to judicial, whether claimed as real or depicted in entertainment media.

 
 
American Way

Re: Belt whipping

July 29 2012, 3:58 AM 

Birthday spankings have been a subject controversy in the USA. Girls get them more often than boys. Most grow out of it by their teen years but for Poland it is on the 18th birthday where more often than not they have a party in a rental hall much like the Quinceanera (15th birthday tradition of Latinos). Birthday spankings do not play a part in their cultural heritage.

As the birthday parties become friend oriented away from home they often become fueled by alcohol and the spankings are semi-consensual. More often than not it is a girl and she is a good sport by submitting with or without token resistance.

The 18th Polish birthday parties are intergenerational and are seen as a rite of passage. Oddly enough, they have to submit to it to preserve the heritage. When parents are around the beltings are more moderate as a general rule. Judging by videos boys are more likely to be on the receiving end.

Everyone gets into the act and the birthday boy or girl leans over a chair or across someone's knee or prone on a couch with more than one belt being passed around. As it progresses and the boy or girl tries to protect herself another person tries to keep the hands out of harm's way. Pasowanie images and videos abound with mostly males.

Ever diligent I found this image and video more to my liking for whatever reason.

CLICK

http://youtu.be/tPHHmHS7_h0



 
 
American Way

Addendum

July 29 2012, 4:06 AM 

This one is more representative of the Polish birthday by positioning.

http://youtu.be/qmeyJHdzSQQ

 
 
American Way

Re: Addendum

August 17 2013, 5:29 AM 

This is a follow up on the Polish 18th Birthday Spanking Tradition from July 29, 2012.

CLICK

When it comes to corporal punishment the Poles seem to take it a notch up at birthday parties. It's on your birthday you are 18 and it's once in a lifetime. Corpun mentioned the peculiarity of the use of the belt. It's not part of the SCP tradition. At time it's a family affair and I would imagine each of the generations there can recall when they went through this rite of initiation. They celebrate with having a drink with their families. The harder ones seem to be when the adults are not around but that's not to say the inter-generational one tickle. Although they are held down they make themselves vulnerable in different positions and most take their whacks without making too much fuss. This is in sharp contrasts with American birthday spankings where there is often a chase and a fight.

The first series of 14 images involve three girls over an ottoman. The third girl is much older than 18.

CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK

Prostrate.

CLICK

http://youtu.be/C_uhI8qDbMk?t=3m15s

Kneeling.

CLICK

Over the knee.

CLICK

http://youtu.be/DrCBtVQe9E0

In time this video will accumulate a lot of hits as she did.

http://youtu.be/fM60qLhEoQw

Another over the knee.

http://youtu.be/MjxpYPOuSks?t=48s

Two kneeling on a chair.

CLICK

Last but not least. Over a stool.

CLICK

There are boys and less attractive girls one can find but life is short. wink.gif

 
 
HH

Re: Belt whipping

August 17 2013, 9:30 PM 

I just wanted to correct the misconception that "SCP was abolished in Poland in 1783." This is actually untrue, or if it was written into some onscure law that I haven't been able to find, no one there knew about it or simply ignored through the ages.

A-W or AL, maybe you can help me out? I 've tried to find a post I made (Dec 2012 to spring 2013?) where I describe my father's schooling on Poland ca.1931 to 1939. Boys were caned with some regularity there (and this was typical for the area AFAIK) and obviously the school inspectors were completely onside with is as the cane was left in full view in the school even as school officials came to imspect it at some frequency. That wouldn't happen if the SCP were illegal. If anyone can find such a post from me, would you kindly link it here?

IMHO, this myth originated from STOPP quoting it in their 1972 publication "A Last Resort? (and I have a physical copy of that book) but the source is unknown and uncited. That's the earliest date I can find any reference to this 1700's SCP ban in Poland. Sources like the Global Initiative site and others used this secondary source as their source, thus the misinformation was propagated until it was accepted as true! that's my take on the unfortunate mistake here.

There are many factual errors on those sites (Global Initiative and stophitting.com) and only recently have they corrected some glaring ones for Canada, which I am reasonably familiar with. Even if you read the Council of Europes anti-CP propaganda pamphlet from 2007, it's full of these errors, probably because they sourced the above sites on SCP ban dates (at a minimum, Poland, Austria and Finland are incorrect, and all occurred much later than they state) before the sites began to correct them. 

I believe the actual enactment of 1997 in Poland is the real one. I would also reason that if a law already existed, it would be redundant to re-enact it, becasue their legislature probably had more pressing issues to deal with. For what that's worth... 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Belt whipping

August 17 2013, 9:41 PM 


Hi HH,

.....and the last time I checked Slovakia still hadn't ( despite promises to the contrary ),legislated much to the chagrin of Brussels. Stopp used misinformation on France as well if I recall........

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 12:11 AM 

Hi HH,

You asked above:

A-W or AL, maybe you can help me out? I 've tried to find a post I made (Dec 2012 to spring 2013?) where I describe my father's schooling on Poland ca.1931 to 1939. Boys were caned with some regularity there (and this was typical for the area AFAIK) and obviously the school inspectors were completely onside with is as the cane was left in full view in the school even as school officials came to imspect it at some frequency. That wouldn't happen if the SCP were illegal. If anyone can find such a post from me, would you kindly link it here?

I have used both Google (usually more reliable) and Network54's Forum search engine, but regretfully the only post I can find that you have made regarding your Father, Poland, and the application of CP is this one in the The earliest mention of the school paddle in the USA thread.

Hopefully someone with a better search technique will locate the post you recall.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 12:34 AM 

Hi American Way,

In another thread you asked with reference to the penultimate link in your August 17 2013, 5:29 AM post above:

A_L With the image of the girls kneeling on the chair I was able to expand its size but I don't know if they're more in that series. Would it be likely there would be a video and would it difficult to find? I came upon it randomly so I can't be of much help there. Thanks.

It is a good quality picture and will therefore stand quite a lot of magnification. I can find no indication that there are any more pictures of the same incident on the web, nor can I see any reference to a video. That is not to say that neither exists.

It appears to be a personal picture posted to a social media site with the query 'Did you get belted at 18?'. I assume that the heads have been removed in a graphics package to give the young ladies at least some anonymity. It seems unlikely that a photographer taking such a relatively sharp picture would have excised them accidentally! happy.gif

 
 
HH

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 2:13 AM 

Hi AL, thanks so much for your attempt to find it. I'm afraid I lead you on a "wild goose chase", as the post didn't happen here. On searching my computer, it was a private email with one of our esteemed colleages as we discoursed SCP from countries behind the former iron curtain. However, here's the text of it relating to my father's schoolling in Poland, and you'll see it is quite in agreement with my comments above and your link to my PCP-recount post in his case...

"Poland. My dad was born in 1926. He said he started school in 1931 and was in school though 1939. He's in his 80's now, and is not as "clear" as he once was, but I got the major gist of it. This school was a typical rural one-room type, so all the grades, while working independently on their studies, did so in view of all the pupils. Once, being about aged 7, he was asked a question by the Master, something about reciting a word in Polish and he repeatedly mispoke the work (because in German, the household language, it was a "bad" word). The Master, thinking this was some form of deliberate insolence, walked up to him and give him a sound open-handed smacking across the face. After composing himself, cheeks burning and ears still ringing, my father said he was then able to repeat the word correctly.

 

He wasn't otherwise ever physically punished at school (more for fear of the extreme bare-bottom belting his father would have given him in the woodshed at home. Thats not a term, this specifically happened and his father did take him out into the shed for a more thorough leathering when required.) (as I dod recount in AL's link above)

 

However; he said on several occasions, the master over the years would haul some boys to the front of the class, bend them over a chair or desk and give them a severe thrashing on the bottom with a cane. This didnt have a crock handle, but was a straight cane of some sort. What's important is this: if CP was not just banned in theory (as some sources claim happened long before), but also in practice, then I could see a one-off slapping or spanking of a pupil because a teacher temporarily lost composure and procedure, but I could not see that a cane would then have been kept in the class, and it was in full view, expressly for that purpose. Even then, the schools were inspected by some official, and since no attempt was made to hide this implement, it is obvious that there would have been no concern with a school official seeing it there, or knowing it must have been used. SCP was officially and explicitly banned in Poland in 1997, and I believe this is correct, and I would give little weight to any enactments someone dredged up from the 1700s."

As my wife was born and schooled in Romania, I had recounted the regular and open use of SCP there, even though officially banned in 1948. If interested, I can share this as well.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 3:27 AM 

Hi HH,

No problem with the abortive search. I don't wade through thousands of links. If the query lends itself to a specific search pattern, which that one did, it is either on the first Google page or (generally but not absolutely invariably) it isn't there at all.

An account of your Wife's CP experiences at school in Romania would certainly be of interest. We had a contribution from someone claiming to be a Romanian woman here in the corporal punishment in girls schools thread. The lady claimed to have been subjected to SCP all the way through Primary and High School, from 1982 to 1994.

Sadly, like many contributors who claim to have been subject to SCP in faraway places, she didn't respond to queries and never posted again. One is then left wondering whether the post was by a fantasist, whether the contributor's English was inadequate to understand the queries, or whether they found us by accident, posted, and moved on without bookmarking the Forum. Very unsatisfactory! sad.gif

 
 
HH

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 4:40 AM 

Hi A-L, and thanks for adding the info as you did... OK so let's look at this a little further,

First a note to Jacob - please excuse my temporary diversion from your excellent topic, but since this door has been opened, it might be worthwhile for those who have a genuine interest in SCP history to discuss this part of it. The problem with the former Eastern Block is that relatively little actual experience has been relayed from it and we are only inundated with some "official" regulation as the anti-CP brigade like to quote, but this actually has nothing to do with the reality in regards to SCP practice.

A-L, first I have to confirm that the recount you linked is, to my mind, completely consistent with that which I know from my wife's recollection, especially where she said "The teachers and the headmaster used the cane, from primary to high school, although it wasn't really an english type of cane, it was more a stick or a wooden ruler sometime. It usually happened in the classroom, on the palms of the hands."

Romania: Theres a lot we can learn from this. My wife was born in 1976 (yes, for those of you who piece the evidence together, she is 14 years my junior). In 1982, she started Grade 1 (there was no kindergarten) in a large multi-room (similar to what a public school today might look like) school where each grade and class had their own teacher. From then through Gr 8, she said that in almost every grade there was at least one or more incidents of the teacher smacking the palms of some unruly pupil with a wooden ruler. An earlier grade teacher (I believe it was Gr 2) was, to quote her "a mean and nasty women" who not only used the ruler far more often, but also smacked children (across the face), or pulled them by the ears or hair. My wife was never once punished and I attribute this not to her good behaviour, but rather: it was a custom to bribe the teachers with hard-to-find goods (remember this was still communist at the time). Because her father worked on cargo ships to international destinations, he had access to "Western goods", which he brought back (like blue jeans) and much of this was used to bribe teachers to show favour to ones child. A very common practice. (Romania, now having joined the EU, still operates primaily on corruption and bribes today - want examples, I 'm happy to relay those because I has to "pay off" many government employees to get things done we needed to...)

Considering that SCP was banned in 1948, same applies as in the case of Poland. But here, one cannot argue this was a rogue teacher flouting the law, as virtually all the teachers in the school practiced the same thing: striking pupils on the open palm with a ruler. This was not some "backwoods" school, it was an institution in the center of the second largest city in the country, so if it went on here, it was probably going on everywhere.

Further, she became an elementary teacher and taught in various village schools from 2001 until 2003, at which time we met and married. She never physically punished a pupil but said she witnessed and / or knew of teachers in these locations that similarly ruled children on the palms. It was still quite common, and we're talking about 50+ years after SCP was pronounced "officially banned"..

That tells us a lot about the abolition of SCP in Romania from 1948, it was:
a) systemic
b) widely used
c) officials must have been aware of this but obviously ignored it, and
d) whatever law existed was completely ignored and unenforced.

I should say, since we're on the Eastern Block, once the war ended, my extended family had many "trapped" behind the iron curtain in East Germany, the "DDR". After the "walls fell" in 1989, my parents slowly began to reconnect with lost cousins/second cousins and so on. I have interviewed and asked these questions (as you know I would! wink.gif ) of all our distant relatives who were schooled in the former East germany. They all claim that they were never exposed to, or witnessd, any kind of SCP in their schooling in East germany, so I have to believe this is one of the former Soviet satelites where the claim that SCP never existing in the USSR from 1945 onward, may actually have been true. Ask them about parents at home, well that was a different story - the school sent a note to parents about egregious behaviour and fully expected the parents to repsond to it, which they did: usually with a leather belt across the bared...


 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Belt whipping

August 18 2013, 7:24 PM 

I reinforce your comments on doing business in Romania. when i joined an organisation that did, it nearly turned my hair white, and I extracted us as quickly as possible form the deals..........

On the 'illicit' cp...denmark is another example, where legislation abolished corporal punishment , but the schoolteachers ignored it . the real life biography of one such child, who became a film maker whose life was directed towards human rights made the film 'Drommen' which won the Canadian Film festival.

Dr dominum some time ago kindly reproduced a number of clips on Youtube

Fritz learns about the schools little secret
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxn9x7ee0I
Fritz gets set up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhKe5XzZzvw
How it used to be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jivX9WS-rs
A clash of teaching philosophy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq429MFnXBY
A complaint is made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpnRfF9zq8s
A strategy is agreed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZsDDoa9ftM


The denouement :
Fritz stands up to the general's bullying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRwiji-H8eU
The concluding scenes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzLfL5fDBZE


and the original thread is here

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/message/1289929364/Drommen+%3B+We+shall+overcome

I won't say 'enjoy' its not really appropriate

but to lighten the atmosphere here's a joke about the canadian Film festival 9 which is really very unfair )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmxLGHtlv8Q

 
 
HH

Re: Belt whipping

August 19 2013, 2:48 AM 

Hi prof.n, thanks for your adding insight on Denmark. It's my understanding (from the Global Initiative site) that SCP was banned in 1967 (and PCP in 1997). It's also somewhat laughable for anyone to seriously expect parents to comply with a PCP ban when the educational system is ignoring theirs...

I found it very interesting that the condition you describe existed in a Scandanavian country! (former eastern block, for reasons above, I fully understand) ... that SCP was still widely used long afterwards is surprising to me as I would think this is something that would have had more visibility, oversight, others aware of it occuring, and immediate sanctions for violations than PCP per se. The Global Initiative site, despite its shortcomings in factual data at times, is actualy a very decent tool - they do update polls, mostly to indicate the degree of compliace with PCP bans. I'm surprised that such reports are never generated to verify SCP bans.

"but to lighten the atmosphere here's a joke about the canadian Film festival 9 which is really very unfair " Well, I'm not in the least bit offended by it. Let's face it, we are not Hollywood by any stretch of the imagination! happy.gif

 


 
 
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