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School News.

April 30 2013 at 9:14 PM

mommabear2 

 
this thread is for posting the news about scp. Although very biased going to try and be as fair and balanced as possible.

A Dayton, Texas, principal is accused of fracturing a students tailbone with a paddle. Dalton Day, age 12, ended up with a dislocated tailbone, bruising, and bleeding as a result of corporal punishment at Nottingham Middle School.

Daltons mother Lisa received a call from school officials last Friday, stating that her son had misbehaved. She gave the principal her permission to paddle her son for his involvement in an altercation with another student.

http://www.inquisitr.com/642028/principal-accused-of-fracturing-students-tailbone-with-paddle/

http://www.ksat.com/news/houstonarea-principal-being-investigated-in-paddling-incident/-/478452/19956054/-/view/print/-/136gg2az/-/index.html warning graghic pic on this one.

http://www.waff.com/story/22081398/s

ECATUR, AL (WAFF) -

Huntsville City Schools stopped paddling students this year. Now another local school system is considering a ban on corporal punishment.
A committee led by the Decatur City Schools' safety supervisor is recommending the change because some administrators have said they feel uncomfortable using corporal punishment.

Paddling is not used often in Decatur City Schools. Nine students have been paddled over last three school years. The question administrators are looking at is if corporal punishment needs to be used anymore with other punishments like suspension and detention available to discipline students.

http://www.waff.com/story/22081398/s

Hope you all can help me keep this thread pretty up to date


    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Jan 16, 2014 7:11 AM


 
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AuthorReply
KK

Much too thick (and heavy)

April 30 2013, 9:44 PM 

" ... the principal reportedly used a wooden paddle wrapped in electrical tape. Dalton estimates the paddle to be approximately 18 inches long and one inch thick."

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

April 30 2013, 11:11 PM 

http://www.inquisitr.com/642028/principal-accused-of-fracturing-students-tailbone-with-paddle/

This is the type of abuse that really makes my blood boil. If anybody did that to my son there would be no need for a trial. This could be a lifelong injury that he never fully recovers from. It may be painful to sit for the rest of his life.

No criminal charges have been filed. That is just disgusting.

I would bet money that paddle is 18" plus the two handed handle. 1" thick! Where do you even get a one inch thick board? One by fours are only three quarters of an inch thick. You would have to buy a five quarters deck plank and plane it down. Probably a hardwood like oak or ash. Then electrical tape. What for? Fear and intimidation?

This is the type of paddle that is intended to do as much damage as possible. This principal has no defense other than the fact he got verbal permission. That's the problem with these phone calls. The parents think they are giving permission for a reasonable punishment and then this happens.

Who's going to pay the medical bills? I don't know how I would restrain myself.

 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 12:58 AM 

Hi Bob T

No criminal charges have been filed. That is just disgusting.

I'm not familiar with the US justice system but I wouldn't read too much into that. In the UK, the prosecuting authorities can take some time to decide on what charges to lay for the greatest probability of a conviction.

This is the type of paddle that is intended to do as much damage as possible.

That weapon wasn't a "paddle", it would be better described as a club.

Who's going to pay the medical bills?

In any justice system worthy of the name, the assailant (or his insurers) would pay compensation sufficient to cover all medical expenses and other losses incurred by the victim plus an amount for "pain and suffering". The assailant would also be looking at an immediate custodial sentence. Let's see if the US justice system lives up to its name.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 4:30 AM 

Not gonna say that 1 inch thick is a lie but have my doubts about that one. Unless some one from Click 2 measured the paddle doubt it is 1 inch thick

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 4:57 AM 

It's probably a 1"x4" or 5" board. If it's a 1"x 4" then the actual measurement is .75"x3.5"x18" plus the two handed handle. These were pretty common when I was in school. They are supposed to be less common now.

The kid (Dalton Day) said he looked back and saw the principal getting ready to swing like a baseball bat with two hands. I don't know how many swats (the school board calls them "pops". Orwellian doublespeak) he got. The article didn't say.

If they haven't charged the principal yet, they probably won't. This is Texas after all.

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 5:16 AM 

Hi Jenny;

The only way Dalton's parents will receive any compensation or reimbursement for medical expenses is if they obtain a conviction in a criminal court or a civil judgement where it's easier to prove guilt.

Until then the school, principal, school board, and ISP will close ranks and admit nothing. Until there is a judgement by a court of law they will deny any wrongdoing. If you doubt me just read one of Renee's more recent posts in the TWP thread. If pursued this will drag on for years in court. As Renee says they have taxpayers money to fight this forever.

In the meantime Dalton has a fractured tailbone. It may heal now but in about 50 years he will have arthritis in that area as a direct result of the injury. Of course by then this principal will be dead and long gone.

 
 
American Way

This is Texas. Don't Call Me Crazy.

May 1 2013, 9:51 AM 

FYI. Nottingham Middle School.

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/Page?t=s&eid=232440&syk=5&pid=434

CLICK

Renee will be glad to read that there may be another side to the story. Comment by Amy West.

"This is a very simple story about a mom who got some new clothes, fixed her hair, and cried to a sucker reporter in an attempt to get some money from the school. Shame on the reporter and station for running the story and shame on anyone who accepts it at face value. This is not the first accusation the neglectful-at-best mother has made against school personnel. This is not her first rodeo with the police or CPS. She knows them both well.

The reporter failed to mention that the boy, Dalton Day was at a baseball game both Friday and Sat. after the so-called excessive paddling. He slid into bases during both games, and it wasn't until after these games that the boy was taken to the doctors. What was really comical was when the inexperienced and less than discerning reporter held up the large plank wrapped in painter's tape to give the viewers a visual as to what the paddle looked like. That was really a joke! Here is the million dollar question...Will this reporter come and sit in her news van outside our school from 2-11 and let the viewers know when the principal has been cleared of the false charges. I've always loved following Dominiqe on this station, but no more. Girl-your station sucks!"


CLICK

http://vimeo.com/59152029

http://youtu.be/TAliqAP6jts



 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 10:57 AM 

Amy West is probably Renee's real name.

By the tone of her comment I would say there is some bad blood between Amy West and Lisa Day. If there were other people backing up Amy West then maybe we could give her comment a little weight. As it stands I think this is just a vindictive person with a personal axe to grind.

 
 
American Way

2011 TWP

May 2 2013, 8:58 PM 

My two favorite TWP posts.

What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively? What age specifically does it not apply? Too many borderline judgments here for my liking. When it comes to minors it's not any part of the line is good but when in doubt call it out. There are no do-overs with corporal punishment. Just Google these two entries.

11. A TEACHERS PADDLING: THE OTHER END

12. TWPs COMMENTARY ON A TEACHERS PADDLING: THE OTHER END

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 2 2013, 10:37 PM 

Dalton's Day baseball schedule is not proof of the theory that it happened in school and not while sliding. Kid slide more often than they put their tailbone at risk for a paddling. Either could have caused injury but it would be highly unlikely in a manner that a physician or a forensic specialists would not be able to distinguish which event led to the injury. Even the fact that one happened after the other is not conclusive. You can play injured after you have been injured as we all have done. I rode on a bicycle after I broke a rib but it was the second and third night lying in bed that was inscrutable. My warrior instinct put me back in the saddle in spite of the fact I heard the crack. I was in a state of shock. I have trauma induced pain that has turned me into a human barometer. I have biked thousands of miles and I'm not exaggerating but it was due to my own over-corrective panic brought on by a driver beeping, who must of thought I was too far from the curb, plus being on a sandy road that led to that fateful spill. Most painful one I have had to endure.

CLICK

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 2 2013, 11:03 PM 

I ask that we please not delayal this thread by taking it way off topic. I saw the post that said he was playing baseball that night and the day after but want to wait for a much more reliable source to confirm it. If that is true it would not shock me if it was a combination of the paddle and baseball games that played a role in his injuries

 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 1:25 AM 

Hi American Way, I assume that when you ask, "What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively?" that this is not rhetorical, you are fully expecting a response. I'd like to take a crack at it but I did not know if this was stepping on toes? Are you waiting specifically for a TWPer to give their interpretation of these descriptors?

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 4:19 AM 

The question is so up for grabs perhaps because school district sets a general SCP policy where schools are given a great latitude so what means judicious, moderate and rare to one may not seem as reasonable to another and that is attested by the differences found in codes of conducts in handbooks, as well as OCR statistics. It just leaves too many unanswered questions to my liking. It is one thing to promulgate and another thing to implement and that has always been issue that I have had with Renee, et. al.

Here is where I regretfully but respectfully part company with prof n's confidence in TWP. Had we no other option than her school when our kids were young and know what they have shared about their paddling episode it would be no way that we would allow our children to be paddled in what I consider to be in TWP too often spleen venting way.

We would probably even look for a Catholic School where my sister's first grandchild will enter in September. She knows things have changed but my sister and I both have residual misgivings but she and my brother-in-law have little say in that decision and rightly so. I got hit like many boys and girls were rarely hit but she and others lived in fear of being hit. Her son-in-law was hit in Catholic School and likes the discipline but knows that corporal punishment is forbidden and not practiced at home. People react differently to corporal punishment . His take of the nuns about 25 years ago was the old and frail ones hit only the really bad boys and what they got at school they should have gotten at home.


 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 8:19 AM 

Hi Bob T

Until then the school, principal, school board, and ISP will close ranks and admit nothing. Until there is a judgement by a court of law they will deny any wrongdoing. If you doubt me just read one of Renee's more recent posts in the TWP thread. If pursued this will drag on for years in court. As Renee says they have taxpayers money to fight this forever.

That's much as would happen in the UK but we have lawyers who will take on such cases on a "No Win, No Fee" basis. What that means is the the action is funded by two (or more) insurance companies - the school's/LEA's and the claimant's. Where the case is clear cut, there would usually be an out of court settlement or, at least, an offer of settlement. Our system gives a better "equality of arms" as both parties have finite funds.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 12:31 PM 


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 5:05 PM 

Hi mommabear2, that's a particularly interesting situation you have found form a New Jersey principal spanking one of his students for several reasons:

1) Ironically, NJ was the first state to ban SCP entirely in 1867, a century before any other state would do the same... This has nothing do to with the administration of SCP since, after all, it is illegal! So there is nothing to ban here.

2) This is an act, which by letter of law (as given in 1 above) is expressly illegal. Does it surprise you that some people do illegal things? I'm not surprised because there are many prisons filled with people who allegedly do so! Does this actually have anything to do with SCP? (I personally think it has nothing to do with it whatsoever)...and is it a rampant epidemic, or is it just a one-off isolated incident?

3) On the assertion that "he should pay big time", he probably will, with sanctions and perhaps loss of his job, and perhaps  some criminal and /or civil remedies awarded. However, (and I admit this may be difficult for "some" to do) one must put the crime into relative context. While it was by all accounts out of order, the act of smacking a student on the rump does not carry the same weight of severity as for example, armed robbery or car-jacking. Are you proposing he spends 25-to-life in prison? or do you see any latitude or gradients in "the crime" here?

4) As has recently been pointing out by (I believe DD, but sorry, I can't find the post to link), there are many instances in the UK today where educators are pushed beyond their limits of endurace by some out-of-control pupils to the point that when they lash out, these become real cases of physical assault.Those incidents obviously have nothing to do wth SCP either, since it is banned there. I wonder if the same thing happened to this principal, could itbe possible that he was pushed into a moment of temporary insanity?


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 5:52 PM 

Hi American Way, so thank you, I would like to take a stab at "What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively?" The reasons for this are several, and to me this is one of the most interesting aspects surrounding the use of CP in both SCP & PCP.

Jenny & I recently had a discussion along similar lines here

To tackle this, it is better that I stick to experiences within my own "backyard" as, to the level that I know anything in this regard, I know the Canadian history better than others... As mentioned here, these concepts first developed for us from British common law 1765. As the topic of SCP began to be addressed in various pieces of legislation, provincial Acts, etc, the wording adopted consistently mirrored statements along the lines of, to practice such discipline as would be exercised by a kind, firm, and judicious parent. This is where judicious became entrenched.

Our Ciminal Code was fas too ambiguous, "if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances". Wow, what is reasonable? and in what circumstance? (happily, this was much more clearly and narrowly redefined in 2004 by our Court)

judiciously: to me this reflects a genuine concern for the wellfare of the person, and having an honest belief that this is the correct approach within the broader spectrum to achieve the end goal of behaviour modification. It takes into account their demeanor, mental & physical ability to accept, learn from and improve by the measure employed. And here's an ambiguous one for you: It also takes into account whether reasonable people (who are not opposed on principle to that measure) could be expected to employ the same option under the circumstance. (I will admit here that what a reasonable person would or would not do has been a moving target since at least ca.1820).

moderately: the force inflicted should be sufficiently punitive to serve it's purpose yet at the same time should not be excessive or inappropriately applied in anyway. Our Court uses "transitory and trifling" to reflect this. The intent is to cause short term discomfort to alter behaviour, but not to cause any significant harm or damage, and to me this includes not leaving lasting bruises.

sparingly: This is an option that should never be used as first resort, or for relatively trivial offences. It's utilization rate should be very low, and resorted to after other methods have honestly been tried and failed, and where in recidivist cases, warnings have been issued and ignored. Along these lines, if SCP has been given to an individual several times and there is no decernible improvement, it should not be given again as in that case, it is proving ineffective and may cause unintended harm without the expectation of offsetting benefit.

I'm going to keep on thinking how to improve these definitions, and your input and opinion will certainly help that process. So please feel free to pick this apart and add any obsrvations!

Finally, AW, I'm going to be the first to admit, that there simply is no scientific measure or test or what have you, that definitively draws a line for these definitions. There is always going to be some ambiguity, and that ambiguity can only be reigned in by clear, precise and enforceable regulation. Here I stand with Bob T, abolish shield laws and make educators held to account to the same standards that a parent would be.


 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 7:46 PM 

Definitions differ on a spectrum between fair and unfair, frequent and rare, or serious or trivial that leaves openness to abuse without clear cut rules and supervision that are often in fact held in anathema when directives the come on down from above and for some it means anyone outside their classroom or school like lords within their domains. It's the way they think of they as others that leaves me with a bad taste. They don't know what I have to go through. They don't know my children. They don't know what kids are liked today. They don't have my formal education and/or years experience. I know better than they what's good for my students. Looking through an issue as complex school corporal punishment there are more points of views than there are facets on a diamond to make the problem always them versus us.

Teachers are not the student's parents and although it takes an orderly classroom to teach IMHO it's a reach to say anarchy ensues with the absence of corporal punishment. That oversimplified belief can lead to spectrum approaching extreme that I categorize both DD and TWP. The "nuclear option" in place of CP can be four or so Saturdays as opposed to weeks of getting behind OSS. Would a sadists take more satisfaction in imposing non-corporal disciplinary sanctions than corporal? I think not. Would and angry teacher take more satisfaction in a non-corporal option? I think not. Others can certainly feel differently but to believe otherwise IMHO seem to be counter-intuitive and not through the lens of my own bias.

Bob T is on to something when he say teachers who hit are teachers who like to hit. It's better to be a good Christian than a mediocre to bad priest. It's better to be a good person than a mediocre to bad teacher. Judging by the populace centers that forbid CP or just keeping it on the books it would be hard to make the case anarchy will ensue when the paddles are put away for good. Bob T military and my Catholic education bad experiences should not lead others to marginalize us as over-reactors. It's untrue and patronizing IMHO. It's like they were hurt and we empathize they're stuck in a time warp. I happen to think human nature is human nature and things don't sort themselves for the better simply because people wanted it to be so. The headlines are not all due to mom's spoiling their boys or looking for a fat paycheck. Some of them merit our attention and some have to the point that have stopped hitting kids in one district after another.

Again I apologize for not being as clear as a better writer would be but I'm always willing to clarify things that I should have made clear from the get-go so ask away.


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 8:39 PM 

Hi AW, your points are well taken.

"it's a reach to say anarchy ensues with the absence of corporal punishment." I certainly agree with this and hope you don't think I believe otherwise. Anarchy ensues for a variety of reasons: one contributing factor is when boards do not have clear effective alternatives that they are willing and prepared to use. CP bans occuring in a vacuum can be problematic, as witnessed by several experiences here at home, but generally they are relatively seamless if schools are prepared and exhibit that other sanctions will be employed. These situations talked about recently (for example UK) have relatively nothing to do with SCP bans since those bans occurred long ago. They have more to do with a continum of removing the ability to apply sanctions and maintaining decorum, and a general loss of respect for the educators ... but that comes from a vast variety of (non-CP related) reasons.

"Would a sadists take more satisfaction in imposing non-corporal disciplinary sanctions than corporal? I think not." I completely agree with you. However, I do not share the opinion that the education systems where SCP is allowed must be teeming with sadists and predators because they are attracted into that environment by the fact that they can hurt someone. Let's look at that logically:

Would someone with these tendences have the forethought to go and obtain a 4-year Bachelor's degree, and then 2 years at teacher training, so they could enter the school environment? Then, spend the next 20-odd years being an exemplary teacher so that they are noticed above their peers for promotion to AP etc, where they are finally in such a position of power. And what if in these 30 years, the State they teach in bans, do they move to another State? And if that ISD bans, do they go to another ISD? It seems also a stretch that all these sadists are patient enough to go through this process. So for this reason, I think, while such things exist, they are exceptional, not typical.

"Would an angry teacher take more satisfaction in a non-corporal option? I think not." I think in any situation where one person has control or power over another, there is going to be some room for abuse, regardless of how that manifests. From personal experience, one can be just as much or more abused without CP being there, but it's harder to show prema-facia evidence of the abuse and make a complaint that sticks. This is why sensible regulation prohibits the teacher, who is the offended (and perhaps angry) party, from administerIng CP. For the exact reason you cite, to prevent it from being meted in anger or for other ulterior reasons. This is easy to do and I wonder why these paddling ISD's don't follow such a rule.

You're quite clear on your points. Abuse does exist. At the risk of irking KK, I can only once again say, IMHO the correct approach is to remove shields and protection from such people and where lines are crossed, deal directly with the offender as i sdone in any other situation where a position of power to trust is abused. Hope I'm not riling you AW, I appreciate your insights.

 


 
 
 
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