<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

School News.

April 30 2013 at 9:14 PM

mommabear2 

 
this thread is for posting the news about scp. Although very biased going to try and be as fair and balanced as possible.

A Dayton, Texas, principal is accused of fracturing a students tailbone with a paddle. Dalton Day, age 12, ended up with a dislocated tailbone, bruising, and bleeding as a result of corporal punishment at Nottingham Middle School.

Daltons mother Lisa received a call from school officials last Friday, stating that her son had misbehaved. She gave the principal her permission to paddle her son for his involvement in an altercation with another student.

http://www.inquisitr.com/642028/principal-accused-of-fracturing-students-tailbone-with-paddle/

http://www.ksat.com/news/houstonarea-principal-being-investigated-in-paddling-incident/-/478452/19956054/-/view/print/-/136gg2az/-/index.html warning graghic pic on this one.

http://www.waff.com/story/22081398/s

ECATUR, AL (WAFF) -

Huntsville City Schools stopped paddling students this year. Now another local school system is considering a ban on corporal punishment.
A committee led by the Decatur City Schools' safety supervisor is recommending the change because some administrators have said they feel uncomfortable using corporal punishment.

Paddling is not used often in Decatur City Schools. Nine students have been paddled over last three school years. The question administrators are looking at is if corporal punishment needs to be used anymore with other punishments like suspension and detention available to discipline students.

http://www.waff.com/story/22081398/s

Hope you all can help me keep this thread pretty up to date


    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Jan 16, 2014 7:11 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
KK

Much too thick (and heavy)

April 30 2013, 9:44 PM 

" ... the principal reportedly used a wooden paddle wrapped in electrical tape. Dalton estimates the paddle to be approximately 18 inches long and one inch thick."

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

April 30 2013, 11:11 PM 

http://www.inquisitr.com/642028/principal-accused-of-fracturing-students-tailbone-with-paddle/

This is the type of abuse that really makes my blood boil. If anybody did that to my son there would be no need for a trial. This could be a lifelong injury that he never fully recovers from. It may be painful to sit for the rest of his life.

No criminal charges have been filed. That is just disgusting.

I would bet money that paddle is 18" plus the two handed handle. 1" thick! Where do you even get a one inch thick board? One by fours are only three quarters of an inch thick. You would have to buy a five quarters deck plank and plane it down. Probably a hardwood like oak or ash. Then electrical tape. What for? Fear and intimidation?

This is the type of paddle that is intended to do as much damage as possible. This principal has no defense other than the fact he got verbal permission. That's the problem with these phone calls. The parents think they are giving permission for a reasonable punishment and then this happens.

Who's going to pay the medical bills? I don't know how I would restrain myself.

 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 12:58 AM 

Hi Bob T

No criminal charges have been filed. That is just disgusting.

I'm not familiar with the US justice system but I wouldn't read too much into that. In the UK, the prosecuting authorities can take some time to decide on what charges to lay for the greatest probability of a conviction.

This is the type of paddle that is intended to do as much damage as possible.

That weapon wasn't a "paddle", it would be better described as a club.

Who's going to pay the medical bills?

In any justice system worthy of the name, the assailant (or his insurers) would pay compensation sufficient to cover all medical expenses and other losses incurred by the victim plus an amount for "pain and suffering". The assailant would also be looking at an immediate custodial sentence. Let's see if the US justice system lives up to its name.


 
 


Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 4:30 AM 

Not gonna say that 1 inch thick is a lie but have my doubts about that one. Unless some one from Click 2 measured the paddle doubt it is 1 inch thick

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 4:57 AM 

It's probably a 1"x4" or 5" board. If it's a 1"x 4" then the actual measurement is .75"x3.5"x18" plus the two handed handle. These were pretty common when I was in school. They are supposed to be less common now.

The kid (Dalton Day) said he looked back and saw the principal getting ready to swing like a baseball bat with two hands. I don't know how many swats (the school board calls them "pops". Orwellian doublespeak) he got. The article didn't say.

If they haven't charged the principal yet, they probably won't. This is Texas after all.

 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 5:16 AM 

Hi Jenny;

The only way Dalton's parents will receive any compensation or reimbursement for medical expenses is if they obtain a conviction in a criminal court or a civil judgement where it's easier to prove guilt.

Until then the school, principal, school board, and ISP will close ranks and admit nothing. Until there is a judgement by a court of law they will deny any wrongdoing. If you doubt me just read one of Renee's more recent posts in the TWP thread. If pursued this will drag on for years in court. As Renee says they have taxpayers money to fight this forever.

In the meantime Dalton has a fractured tailbone. It may heal now but in about 50 years he will have arthritis in that area as a direct result of the injury. Of course by then this principal will be dead and long gone.

 
 
American Way

This is Texas. Don't Call Me Crazy.

May 1 2013, 9:51 AM 

FYI. Nottingham Middle School.

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/Page?t=s&eid=232440&syk=5&pid=434

CLICK

Renee will be glad to read that there may be another side to the story. Comment by Amy West.

"This is a very simple story about a mom who got some new clothes, fixed her hair, and cried to a sucker reporter in an attempt to get some money from the school. Shame on the reporter and station for running the story and shame on anyone who accepts it at face value. This is not the first accusation the neglectful-at-best mother has made against school personnel. This is not her first rodeo with the police or CPS. She knows them both well.

The reporter failed to mention that the boy, Dalton Day was at a baseball game both Friday and Sat. after the so-called excessive paddling. He slid into bases during both games, and it wasn't until after these games that the boy was taken to the doctors. What was really comical was when the inexperienced and less than discerning reporter held up the large plank wrapped in painter's tape to give the viewers a visual as to what the paddle looked like. That was really a joke! Here is the million dollar question...Will this reporter come and sit in her news van outside our school from 2-11 and let the viewers know when the principal has been cleared of the false charges. I've always loved following Dominiqe on this station, but no more. Girl-your station sucks!"


CLICK

http://vimeo.com/59152029

http://youtu.be/TAliqAP6jts



 
 

Bob T

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 1 2013, 10:57 AM 

Amy West is probably Renee's real name.

By the tone of her comment I would say there is some bad blood between Amy West and Lisa Day. If there were other people backing up Amy West then maybe we could give her comment a little weight. As it stands I think this is just a vindictive person with a personal axe to grind.

 
 
American Way

2011 TWP

May 2 2013, 8:58 PM 

My two favorite TWP posts.

What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively? What age specifically does it not apply? Too many borderline judgments here for my liking. When it comes to minors it's not any part of the line is good but when in doubt call it out. There are no do-overs with corporal punishment. Just Google these two entries.

11. A TEACHERS PADDLING: THE OTHER END

12. TWPs COMMENTARY ON A TEACHERS PADDLING: THE OTHER END

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 2 2013, 10:37 PM 

Dalton's Day baseball schedule is not proof of the theory that it happened in school and not while sliding. Kid slide more often than they put their tailbone at risk for a paddling. Either could have caused injury but it would be highly unlikely in a manner that a physician or a forensic specialists would not be able to distinguish which event led to the injury. Even the fact that one happened after the other is not conclusive. You can play injured after you have been injured as we all have done. I rode on a bicycle after I broke a rib but it was the second and third night lying in bed that was inscrutable. My warrior instinct put me back in the saddle in spite of the fact I heard the crack. I was in a state of shock. I have trauma induced pain that has turned me into a human barometer. I have biked thousands of miles and I'm not exaggerating but it was due to my own over-corrective panic brought on by a driver beeping, who must of thought I was too far from the curb, plus being on a sandy road that led to that fateful spill. Most painful one I have had to endure.

CLICK

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 2 2013, 11:03 PM 

I ask that we please not delayal this thread by taking it way off topic. I saw the post that said he was playing baseball that night and the day after but want to wait for a much more reliable source to confirm it. If that is true it would not shock me if it was a combination of the paddle and baseball games that played a role in his injuries

 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 1:25 AM 

Hi American Way, I assume that when you ask, "What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively?" that this is not rhetorical, you are fully expecting a response. I'd like to take a crack at it but I did not know if this was stepping on toes? Are you waiting specifically for a TWPer to give their interpretation of these descriptors?

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 4:19 AM 

The question is so up for grabs perhaps because school district sets a general SCP policy where schools are given a great latitude so what means judicious, moderate and rare to one may not seem as reasonable to another and that is attested by the differences found in codes of conducts in handbooks, as well as OCR statistics. It just leaves too many unanswered questions to my liking. It is one thing to promulgate and another thing to implement and that has always been issue that I have had with Renee, et. al.

Here is where I regretfully but respectfully part company with prof n's confidence in TWP. Had we no other option than her school when our kids were young and know what they have shared about their paddling episode it would be no way that we would allow our children to be paddled in what I consider to be in TWP too often spleen venting way.

We would probably even look for a Catholic School where my sister's first grandchild will enter in September. She knows things have changed but my sister and I both have residual misgivings but she and my brother-in-law have little say in that decision and rightly so. I got hit like many boys and girls were rarely hit but she and others lived in fear of being hit. Her son-in-law was hit in Catholic School and likes the discipline but knows that corporal punishment is forbidden and not practiced at home. People react differently to corporal punishment . His take of the nuns about 25 years ago was the old and frail ones hit only the really bad boys and what they got at school they should have gotten at home.


 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 8:19 AM 

Hi Bob T

Until then the school, principal, school board, and ISP will close ranks and admit nothing. Until there is a judgement by a court of law they will deny any wrongdoing. If you doubt me just read one of Renee's more recent posts in the TWP thread. If pursued this will drag on for years in court. As Renee says they have taxpayers money to fight this forever.

That's much as would happen in the UK but we have lawyers who will take on such cases on a "No Win, No Fee" basis. What that means is the the action is funded by two (or more) insurance companies - the school's/LEA's and the claimant's. Where the case is clear cut, there would usually be an out of court settlement or, at least, an offer of settlement. Our system gives a better "equality of arms" as both parties have finite funds.


 
 


Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 12:31 PM 


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 5:05 PM 

Hi mommabear2, that's a particularly interesting situation you have found form a New Jersey principal spanking one of his students for several reasons:

1) Ironically, NJ was the first state to ban SCP entirely in 1867, a century before any other state would do the same... This has nothing do to with the administration of SCP since, after all, it is illegal! So there is nothing to ban here.

2) This is an act, which by letter of law (as given in 1 above) is expressly illegal. Does it surprise you that some people do illegal things? I'm not surprised because there are many prisons filled with people who allegedly do so! Does this actually have anything to do with SCP? (I personally think it has nothing to do with it whatsoever)...and is it a rampant epidemic, or is it just a one-off isolated incident?

3) On the assertion that "he should pay big time", he probably will, with sanctions and perhaps loss of his job, and perhaps  some criminal and /or civil remedies awarded. However, (and I admit this may be difficult for "some" to do) one must put the crime into relative context. While it was by all accounts out of order, the act of smacking a student on the rump does not carry the same weight of severity as for example, armed robbery or car-jacking. Are you proposing he spends 25-to-life in prison? or do you see any latitude or gradients in "the crime" here?

4) As has recently been pointing out by (I believe DD, but sorry, I can't find the post to link), there are many instances in the UK today where educators are pushed beyond their limits of endurace by some out-of-control pupils to the point that when they lash out, these become real cases of physical assault.Those incidents obviously have nothing to do wth SCP either, since it is banned there. I wonder if the same thing happened to this principal, could itbe possible that he was pushed into a moment of temporary insanity?


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 5:52 PM 

Hi American Way, so thank you, I would like to take a stab at "What is judiciously, moderately and sparingly applied mean objectively?" The reasons for this are several, and to me this is one of the most interesting aspects surrounding the use of CP in both SCP & PCP.

Jenny & I recently had a discussion along similar lines here

To tackle this, it is better that I stick to experiences within my own "backyard" as, to the level that I know anything in this regard, I know the Canadian history better than others... As mentioned here, these concepts first developed for us from British common law 1765. As the topic of SCP began to be addressed in various pieces of legislation, provincial Acts, etc, the wording adopted consistently mirrored statements along the lines of, to practice such discipline as would be exercised by a kind, firm, and judicious parent. This is where judicious became entrenched.

Our Ciminal Code was fas too ambiguous, "if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances". Wow, what is reasonable? and in what circumstance? (happily, this was much more clearly and narrowly redefined in 2004 by our Court)

judiciously: to me this reflects a genuine concern for the wellfare of the person, and having an honest belief that this is the correct approach within the broader spectrum to achieve the end goal of behaviour modification. It takes into account their demeanor, mental & physical ability to accept, learn from and improve by the measure employed. And here's an ambiguous one for you: It also takes into account whether reasonable people (who are not opposed on principle to that measure) could be expected to employ the same option under the circumstance. (I will admit here that what a reasonable person would or would not do has been a moving target since at least ca.1820).

moderately: the force inflicted should be sufficiently punitive to serve it's purpose yet at the same time should not be excessive or inappropriately applied in anyway. Our Court uses "transitory and trifling" to reflect this. The intent is to cause short term discomfort to alter behaviour, but not to cause any significant harm or damage, and to me this includes not leaving lasting bruises.

sparingly: This is an option that should never be used as first resort, or for relatively trivial offences. It's utilization rate should be very low, and resorted to after other methods have honestly been tried and failed, and where in recidivist cases, warnings have been issued and ignored. Along these lines, if SCP has been given to an individual several times and there is no decernible improvement, it should not be given again as in that case, it is proving ineffective and may cause unintended harm without the expectation of offsetting benefit.

I'm going to keep on thinking how to improve these definitions, and your input and opinion will certainly help that process. So please feel free to pick this apart and add any obsrvations!

Finally, AW, I'm going to be the first to admit, that there simply is no scientific measure or test or what have you, that definitively draws a line for these definitions. There is always going to be some ambiguity, and that ambiguity can only be reigned in by clear, precise and enforceable regulation. Here I stand with Bob T, abolish shield laws and make educators held to account to the same standards that a parent would be.


 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 7:46 PM 

Definitions differ on a spectrum between fair and unfair, frequent and rare, or serious or trivial that leaves openness to abuse without clear cut rules and supervision that are often in fact held in anathema when directives the come on down from above and for some it means anyone outside their classroom or school like lords within their domains. It's the way they think of they as others that leaves me with a bad taste. They don't know what I have to go through. They don't know my children. They don't know what kids are liked today. They don't have my formal education and/or years experience. I know better than they what's good for my students. Looking through an issue as complex school corporal punishment there are more points of views than there are facets on a diamond to make the problem always them versus us.

Teachers are not the student's parents and although it takes an orderly classroom to teach IMHO it's a reach to say anarchy ensues with the absence of corporal punishment. That oversimplified belief can lead to spectrum approaching extreme that I categorize both DD and TWP. The "nuclear option" in place of CP can be four or so Saturdays as opposed to weeks of getting behind OSS. Would a sadists take more satisfaction in imposing non-corporal disciplinary sanctions than corporal? I think not. Would and angry teacher take more satisfaction in a non-corporal option? I think not. Others can certainly feel differently but to believe otherwise IMHO seem to be counter-intuitive and not through the lens of my own bias.

Bob T is on to something when he say teachers who hit are teachers who like to hit. It's better to be a good Christian than a mediocre to bad priest. It's better to be a good person than a mediocre to bad teacher. Judging by the populace centers that forbid CP or just keeping it on the books it would be hard to make the case anarchy will ensue when the paddles are put away for good. Bob T military and my Catholic education bad experiences should not lead others to marginalize us as over-reactors. It's untrue and patronizing IMHO. It's like they were hurt and we empathize they're stuck in a time warp. I happen to think human nature is human nature and things don't sort themselves for the better simply because people wanted it to be so. The headlines are not all due to mom's spoiling their boys or looking for a fat paycheck. Some of them merit our attention and some have to the point that have stopped hitting kids in one district after another.

Again I apologize for not being as clear as a better writer would be but I'm always willing to clarify things that I should have made clear from the get-go so ask away.


 
 
HH

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 8:39 PM 

Hi AW, your points are well taken.

"it's a reach to say anarchy ensues with the absence of corporal punishment." I certainly agree with this and hope you don't think I believe otherwise. Anarchy ensues for a variety of reasons: one contributing factor is when boards do not have clear effective alternatives that they are willing and prepared to use. CP bans occuring in a vacuum can be problematic, as witnessed by several experiences here at home, but generally they are relatively seamless if schools are prepared and exhibit that other sanctions will be employed. These situations talked about recently (for example UK) have relatively nothing to do with SCP bans since those bans occurred long ago. They have more to do with a continum of removing the ability to apply sanctions and maintaining decorum, and a general loss of respect for the educators ... but that comes from a vast variety of (non-CP related) reasons.

"Would a sadists take more satisfaction in imposing non-corporal disciplinary sanctions than corporal? I think not." I completely agree with you. However, I do not share the opinion that the education systems where SCP is allowed must be teeming with sadists and predators because they are attracted into that environment by the fact that they can hurt someone. Let's look at that logically:

Would someone with these tendences have the forethought to go and obtain a 4-year Bachelor's degree, and then 2 years at teacher training, so they could enter the school environment? Then, spend the next 20-odd years being an exemplary teacher so that they are noticed above their peers for promotion to AP etc, where they are finally in such a position of power. And what if in these 30 years, the State they teach in bans, do they move to another State? And if that ISD bans, do they go to another ISD? It seems also a stretch that all these sadists are patient enough to go through this process. So for this reason, I think, while such things exist, they are exceptional, not typical.

"Would an angry teacher take more satisfaction in a non-corporal option? I think not." I think in any situation where one person has control or power over another, there is going to be some room for abuse, regardless of how that manifests. From personal experience, one can be just as much or more abused without CP being there, but it's harder to show prema-facia evidence of the abuse and make a complaint that sticks. This is why sensible regulation prohibits the teacher, who is the offended (and perhaps angry) party, from administerIng CP. For the exact reason you cite, to prevent it from being meted in anger or for other ulterior reasons. This is easy to do and I wonder why these paddling ISD's don't follow such a rule.

You're quite clear on your points. Abuse does exist. At the risk of irking KK, I can only once again say, IMHO the correct approach is to remove shields and protection from such people and where lines are crossed, deal directly with the offender as i sdone in any other situation where a position of power to trust is abused. Hope I'm not riling you AW, I appreciate your insights.

 


 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 9:18 PM 

HH:

You're quite clear on your points. Abuse does exist. At the risk of irking KK, I can only once again say, IMHO the correct approach is to remove shields and protection from such people and where lines are crossed, deal directly with the offender as is done in any other situation where a position of power to trust is abused. Hope I'm not riling you AW, I appreciate your insights.


The two issues that, in my opinion, intrude into too many threads are the authenticity or otherwise of Dr D, and the issue of gender (in)equality in SCP. I have not the slightest problem with posters repeating points they consider important, in appropriate context, as you have done, HH. What I object to is the unnecessary insertion of the two controversial and divisive issues into threads dealing with other matters.

Do "shield" laws really protect people who commit crimes? I am sure that is not their intended purpose. My reading of court rulings is that teachers tend to be given the benefit of any doubt when the case is unclear (criminal standard), rather than the cases being decided on the balance of probabilities (civil standard). I think it likely that those who escape conviction do modify their practices as a consequence of being prosecuted. This is nearly as good as getting revenge.

I have no problem with terms such as "reasonable" or "moderate" or "right thinking", etc. as they allow standards to evolve overtime as society's understandings and expectations change. The alternative is to try to define something that cannot be quantified.

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 9:24 PM 

HH You're not riling me at all and in fact we are almost in complete agreement. A case can be made that a sadist would seek out a position where CP is permitted as opposed to not but not a convincing one for me. He or she could have entered the profession for a noble reason but surrendered to their darker side. Sister Mary Godzilla did go to the convent to abuse children but took pleasure from it at a child's expense. Anger is a whole different kettle of fish and far more common than sadists. But there is no reason for a child to be hit in anger. Find someone in control or find another way than hitting.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 3 2013, 10:11 PM 

HH Wrote.

"On the assertion that "he should pay big time", he probably will, with sanctions and perhaps loss of his job, and perhaps some criminal and /or civil remedies awarded. However, (and I admit this may be difficult for "some" to do) one must put the crime into relative context. While it was by all accounts out of order, the act of smacking a student on the rump does not carry the same weight of severity as for example, armed robbery or car-jacking. Are you proposing he spends 25-to-life in prison? or do you see any latitude or gradients in "the crime" here?"

No I would not support the 25 to life. I think something likehttp://www.corpun.com/usi00601.htm that would be acceptable. As long with losing his job

 
 
KK

An old case

May 3 2013, 10:12 PM 

The following case was important in helping establishing what teachers were allowed to do. Although the teacher was not convicted, he had to pay court costs which suggested he was very close to the limit. I was a beneficiary of the case, 50 years later, as by then SCP practice had been standardised and ritualised.


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19080508.2.89

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT

Evening Post, Volume LXXV, Issue 109, 8 May 1908, Page 8

A TEACHER CHARGED WITH ASSAULT. A case of alleged excessive corporal punishment in a school was brought before Mr. Riddell, S.M., this morning, when Edwin Howe, an instructor in woodwork to the Wellington Education Board, was charged with assaulting on the 27th April a school boy named Charles Francis Haynes.

Mr. Wilford appeared for the informant, Mr. Myers for the defendant. Dr. Begg stated that he examined the boy Haynes on the 27th April, at the father's request. There were severe bruises and swellings on the boy's buttocks. Witness said he had never seen a worse beating. It would be four or five days before the bruises disappeared.
[Strangely quick healing for severe bruising!] From the appearance of the injuries the punishment was probably inflicted by a thick cane.

To Mr. Myers: The results might have been caused by the cane produced (a short thick piece.).

Charles Francis Haynes, the boy in question, gave evidence. He stated that he touched another boy named Childs with a stick in the woodworking class. Mr. Howe said, "There is a new game going on; Childs give Haynes what he gave you." Childs refused, and the master said he would administer the punishment. Haynes said he would take it only on his hands. The master said he would give it him on the seat of his trousers. He then gave the witness four cuts with the cane on the place mentioned. The witness was unable to walk properly after the beating, and was, away from school four days in consequence. In answer to Mr. Myers He had received corporal punishment on other occasions, but only on the hands. His jersey was torn, he noticed, when he came out of school.

Charles Haynes, hairdresser and tobacconist, Molesworth Street, stated that, when the boy came home from school on 27th April he asked him to strip. The boy must have received a brutal unmerciful hiding. There were the marks of four cuts deep "in the flesh.

Robert Powell, carpenter in the Public Works Department, described the bruises and swellings on the boy's body, as evidence of a cruel castigation.

Similar evidence was given by George Taylor.

Mr. Myers submitted that on the evidence of the boy Haynes there could be no case against Mr. Howe, who had a legal right, as a schoolmaster, to chastise the persons to whom he stood in loco parentis, so long as the chastisement was reasonable under the circumstances. Mr. Howe had found it necessary to inflict punishment on the boy in order to maintain discipline in the school.

Edwin Howe, the defendant in the case, described the boy Haynes as one of the most troublesome boys in all the schools he visited. He had found it necessary to punish the boy before. On the day in question he had punished the boy by giving him four cuts on the seat of his trousers for a breach of discipline, and for striking the boy Childs. The boy did not take the punishment willingly, but did not cry.

To Mr. Wilford: He was not a schoolmaster, but in the position of a schoolmaster. He considered the punishment inflicted was reasonable and moderate.

At this point Mr. Macmorran was called. Mr. Wilford objected strongly, as all the witnesses had previously been ordered out of court, while Mr. Macmorran had remained inside.

George Macmorran, headmaster of the Terrace school, stated that he cane produced was much like other canes used in schools. The boy 'Haynes was not a bad boy, but was irresponsible, and might give trouble to a new teacher.

To Mr. Wilford: He had used such, canes as the one produced, but preferred the strap. If a vote were taken of teachers in Wellington he was not sure that they would not prefer the cane.

His Worship reserved decision.






http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19080518.2.55

USE OF THE CANE

Evening Post, Volume LXXV, Issue 117, 18 May 1908, Page 7

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT OBJECTED TO.

IMPORTANT TO SCHOOL TEACHERS.

AN UNUSUAL CASE.

Mr. W. G. Riddell, S.M., delivered his reserved judgment to-day in the case of Haynes v. Howe. The case presented some unusual features. Defendant is a teacher of wood-carving at the Wellington Technical School, and Haynes is a pupil in defendant's class, and about 14 years of age. The facts were not in dispute. The assault complained of consisted of four strokes with a cane and was administered by defendant for breaches of discipline on the part of Haynes.

The result, according to Dr. Begg, the magistrate said, was severe bruising and temporary inconvenience. There were no permanent injuries. "I do not," the magistrate continued, "think there is any doubt about defendant's authority to administer corporal punishment to pupils in order to preserve discipline in his class. The ordinary authority to administer corporal punishment extends not to the head teacher only, but to responsible teachers who have charge of classes. A teacher of a class has the ordinary means of preserving discipline, and as between the parent and the child and the teacher it is enough for the teacher to be able to say, "The punishment which I administered was moderate it was not dictated by any bad motive, and it was such as is usual in the school, and such as the parents of the child might expect the child would receive if it did wrong." In the present case the boy was in good health when the punishment was administered, and the number of strokes not excessive - though, according to the medical evidence, severe. The facts show that Haynes deserved some punishment, but it is questionable if he would have received so much if defendant had at once checked his initial breach of discipline, instead of attempting to delegate his power of correction to another and smaller pupil. Defendant certainly erred in this matter, and his error seems to me to have given Haynes an opportunity of trying to dictate to defendant where or how he should be punished. His challenge was in open class, and defendant properly considered it necessary to assert his authority. To maintain discipline is a matter of first importance to every class or school. Without it, a great part of the teacher's work is rendered valueless, and the pupil's efficiency suffers accordingly."

After quoting cases recorded in the Law Reports, his Worship continued:- In determining what is a reasonable punishment, various considerations must be regarded, the nature of the offence, the apparent motive and disposition of the offender, the influence of his example and conduct upon others, and the sex, age, size, and strength of the pupil to be punished. On account of the difference of opinion, and the difficulty which exists in determining what is reasonable punishment and the advantage which the master has by being on the spot to know all the circumstances the manner, look, tone, gesture, and language of the offender, and thus to form a correct opinion as to the necessity and extent of the punishment, considerable allowance should be made to the teacher by way of protecting him in the exercise of his discretion. Hence the teacher is not to be held liable on the ground of excess of punishment, unless the punishment is clearly excessive and would be so held in the general judgment of reasonable men. If the punishment is clearly excessive, then the master is liable for such excess, though he acted from proper motives in inflicting the punishment, and in his own judgment considered it necessary and not excessive, "but if there is 'any reasonable doubt here the master "should have the benefit of the doubt. Applying these principles and looking at the whole of the circumstances, I think defendant had sufficient cause to inflict some punishment on Haynes, but that it would not have been quite so severe if he had not at first attempted to delegate his power of correction to another pupil. As a result, there was some excess in the punishment inflicted, amounting to an assault, but not sufficient to warrant a conviction being entered against defendant. He must, however, pay the costs of the prosecution (£3 12s).



 
 

mommabear2

updates

May 9 2013, 11:35 PM 

Got a few updates. sad stories

PURULIA: A standard five boy of Purulia who was beaten in class by his teacher for not being able to reply, fell ill after returning home and has died.


The 12-year-old, who was a student of Banga Manna High School of Bandwan, 90 km from here, was punished by his teacher on Thursday, police said quoting the FIR filed by his family today.

He fell ill after he returned home and was rushed to Bandwan block hospital. He was referred to Tata Main Hospital in Jamshedpur on Monday and died in that hospital yesterday.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/

The use of corporal punishment in Japanese schools was called into question recently following the suicide of a pupil who had reportedly received physical punishment from a basketball teacher.

Board of Education officials announced last year that an unnamed 17-year-old pupil at Sakuranomiya high school had taken his own life following the incident.

His mother found a suicide note in which the boy had hinted that he couldn't handle the shame of being physically punished by his basketball coach.

The teacher was subsequently questioned by school officials and he admitted slapping the boy in the face reportedly to toughen him up.

Osaka City Board of Education has released the final report on the suicide. It concluded that pupils and parents did not protest against corporal punishment, which is banned in Japanese schools, because Sakuranomiya high has a reputation for its sports club activities.

http://www.insidejapantours.com/japan-news/2796/

Decatur City Schools is backing away from a plan to ban corporal punishment, but will require administrators to paddle with extreme care, tact and caution.

The board may revise its corporal punishment policy at a later date to define specific things, such as how many times a student may be struck and how parents may request that their children not be paddled, Superintendent Ed Nichols said at Tuesdays school board meeting.

Nichols said the board wants to do a little more studying before permanently removing corporal punishment from the student code of conduct.

Were going to hold things in place next (school) year, he said. In most cases when its been used, parents have requested it. Id much rather allow parents have a say than to take away that option.

None of the board members challenged the decision to retain corporal punishment as a discipline option.

I will leave that decision up to the professionals who have studied the issue, board President Karen Duke said.

I agree with her, board member Dwight Jett Jr. said.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/stories/City-to-keep-paddlings,119329?

Done edit to reduce width Carl


    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:55 PM
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:54 PM
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:48 PM


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 10 2013, 6:03 AM 

CASS COUNTY, TX (KSLA) -

"I don't want to subject my child to that kind of fears or abuse, to me that is abusive" Elizabeth Price says. That Ark-La-Tex mother is enraged Thursday after she says her little girl's teacher spanked her in front of several other students in the class. This is at Linden-Kildare Elementary School in Linden, Texas. "She took three boys up there at a time and then three girls up there at a time, and she asked them 'were you talking', if they were talking they got spanked and if they weren't they got to go to PE. I felt like I did when I'm going to throw up" Abigail Beaty-Price, a 3rd grader at Linden-Kildare Elementary School, says.

9 year old, Abigail, says her teacher spanked her and a dozen other kids in her class with a meter stick in front of several other students. "I was scared" Abigail says. Her mother says she did not give consent for corporal punishment to be used on her 3rd grader. Abigail said the spanking hurt because there were buttons on her pants. "We have signed the form that says they cannot perform corporal punishment on our children and then further more I was not even contacted to tell me my child was in trouble" Price says.

http://www.ksla.com/story/22211457/corporal-punishment-used-without-parents-consent

 
 
KK

Some happier non-SCP news

May 10 2013, 6:50 AM 

Minor adventures help us develop resilience and prepares us for dealing with more traumatic. Haplessness is usually far worse than being able to take even unsuccessful action. It is better to be a survivor than a victim.


Christchurch teen's miracle survival (Video)

'Nightmare' did not stop hero lad

Beach boys heroic at holiday hotspot

Teen praised for trying to help hunting mate

Boy's courage praised after beach rescue

Boys saved unconscious driver - police


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 13 2013, 11:30 PM 

GREENSBURG, La. (AP) The St. Helena Parish School Board has stricken a policy that permitted corporal punishment in parish schools.

http://www.necn.com/05/11/13/St-Helena-abolishes-corporal-punishment/landing_nation.html?&apID=f83ec66884144111b984a0087f178eb2

What is it with New Jersey and teachers spanking kids?

http://manalapan.patch.com/articles/police-manalapan-music-teacher-spanks-young-student

Crazy

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 15 2013, 11:31 PM 

Could not agree more with this editorial about scp.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130514/OPINION/305140008/

Done edit to reduce width Carl



    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:57 PM


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 16 2013, 2:55 PM 

This is a sad one from The Times of India:

http://m.timesofindia.com/articleshow/19971052.cms

Boy dead after corporal punishment in school
May 9, 2013, 05.42PM IST PTI

PURULIA: A standard five boy of Purulia who was beaten in class by his teacher for not being able to reply, fell ill after returning home and has died.
The 12-year-old, who was a student of Banga Manna High School of Bandwan, 90 km from here, was punished by his teacher on Thursday, police said quoting the FIR filed by his family today.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 25 2013, 4:09 AM 

yikes


OHANNESBURG - An Eastern Cape teacher has been caught on video, beating a grade 10 pupil.

Zenande Mekeleni was beaten two weeks ago at the Ndabankulu Senior Secondary school in Butterworth while a classmate filmed the incident on his cellphone.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/school-corporal-punishment-caught-camera

The Tokyo Metropolitan Board of Education released the list of 130 public schools that are currently facing corporal punishment cases. They also announced that 182 teachers and other employees were involved in instances where they punished students at 146 public elementary, junior high, senior high, and special schools in fiscal year 2012.

http://japandailypress.com/tokyo-releases-list-of-130-public-schools-with-corporal-punishment-cases-2329414

The discrepancy between the number of schools in the figures is because some of the offenses were committed by school graduates or other individuals. The figures and the information on the cases came from an emergency survey following the suicide of a student at the Sakuranomiya Senior High School in Osaka last October due to the physical abuse he suffered from his basketball coach. The survey was requested by the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology as part of their efforts to make sure that the incident will not happen again and also to assure parents and guardians that they are taking action.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/teacher-slapped-special-needs_n_3328296.html?ir=Crime

 
 
American Way

Spanking and Voting

May 26 2013, 12:31 AM 

Mommabear2 being new to the estimable Forum I thought you would find this graphic previously shared but with the numbers. Numbers have plunged but President Obama is still serving our country as the President of the United States. Although TWP doesn't have a monolithic political stance, I'm sure the reelection of our president by close to a landslide in November wasn't one of the highlights of their year. FL went for Obama but the Panhandle is where many of the paddlings are occurring in the state. The numbers have been greatly diminished in North Carolina that has become more and more Democrat. It may be the Supreme Court that will ban the paddle but one never knows.

http://bbdupon.blogspot.com/2008/08/spanking-little-kids-and-voting.html

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 26 2013, 8:18 PM 

Let's stay away from politics. My point was that with Supreme Court Justices turning over and the President and the Senate being Democrat challenges to the status quo of corporal punishment laws would be more likely occur. 47% landslide? Romney's nail in his coffin.

There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. Thats an entitlement. The government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what.

And I mean the president starts off with 48, 49 he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesnt connect. So hell be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. My job is not to worry about those people. Ill never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5% to 10% in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not.

http://youtu.be/J3xo8IG4sVc

CLICK


 
 


Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 28 2013, 8:39 PM 

This story talks about the changes in school.

http://www.wjbf.com/story/22378380/wjbf-extra-school-discipline-thenand-now

This next one has nothing to do with school corporal punishment. I only post it because this is city I am living in and and darn proud of it right now.

AMY GOODMAN: Jesse, can you explain what youre coming up with in its stead?

JESSE HAGOPIAN: Yeah, I mean, its important to know that we are not against assessment or testing at Garfield High School or any of the boycotting schools across Seattle. What we are against is assessments that are not culturally relevant, assessments that are not aligned to our curriculum, and assessments that dont promote the type of skills we believe are necessary in the world today.

So we actually formed a teacher work group on assessment, and we had some very dedicated teachers who took time out of their week, every week for the last couple months, to do research, to collaborate and to come up with what we would replace the MAP test with. And its an incredible document. People should go to scrapthemap.wordpress.com and take a look at what we would replace the MAP with, and this is assessments that are related to our curriculum, assessments that actually measure many different skills rather than just your ability to fill in a bubble A, B, C or D, assessments like performance-based assessments, what you do when you get a Ph.D. You do research; you defend that research in front of a panel of experts. And I think that can be adapted for all grade levels and all subjects. And you get at a lot of different skills that you dont get at with the simple standardized testing. And Im really


http://www.democracynow.org/2013/5/20/seattle_teachers_students_win_historic_victory

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

May 29 2013, 2:07 PM 

Hi MommaBear

Thank you very much for the second link. Congratulations to the teachers and students of Seattle.

Somebody raised the question of why good teachers were leaving the profession. I know of one who left after 35 years teaching. The problem was not the testing, in fact the test results we see on an individual basis in NSW are quite useful for understanding student skills.

The problem is that the way the testing is used can poison the whole of education. In NSW the Principal is judged on the school's results. Hence in some schools teachers are told to spend an inordinate proportion of time specifically preparing their students for the test. This reduces the time available for education in a broader sense.

It is interesting that the grandson of a neighbour recently started at the prep school of one of Sydney's elite schools. The parents were assured by the Principal of that school that they gave very little credence to the NAPLAN (as standardised testing is called here) results and did not allow it to impact their teaching.

 
 


Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

June 15 2013, 12:56 AM 

Looks like this could be a legal mess in Tennessee



MEMPHIS, Tennessee As the unified school district continues to evolve in Memphis and Shelby County, it must resolve the issue of spanking.

The Memphis City Schools outlawed corporal punishment in 2004, but it's still among options at the Shelby County Schools.

A proposal to forbid it in the countywide school system stalled Tuesday when the school board asked administrators to bring back the latest research on spanking in schools.

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/09298380c50e45e49ae5c4c9d1420b3a/TN--Memphis-Schools#.UbiuwpCo4YY.facebook

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Spare-the-rod-decision-delayed-by-merging-schools-4596383.php


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

June 17 2013, 9:20 PM 

It seems like some in Irving Texas are trying to get paddling back in schools. Thankfully the bill was pulled before it discussed or voted on.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/irving/headlines/20130613-irving-isds-new-board-may-bring-back-corporal-punishment.ece

Teachers are fined for assaulting children in WINDHOEK

http://www.newera.com.na/articles/52435/Teachers-fined-over-corporal-punishment

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

June 18 2013, 4:02 AM 

Looks like Irvings school board might bring back school paddling.

http://keranews.org/post/irving-school-board-president-plans-revive-corporal-punishment

 
 

mommabear2

disturbing

July 25 2013, 12:43 AM 


 
 
KK

Re: disturbing

July 25 2013, 2:36 AM 

Videos show older students at Upper St Clair High School in Pittsburgh paddling incoming freshman across their bare buttocks, leaving the boys with welts, blisters and red marks on their skin.


In the old days of regulated moderate SCP, most knew what was appropriate and safe in terms of implements and practices. That is not to say that all SCP was acceptable, judged by the standards and expectations of that time, but most was. With the demise of such SCP, the knowledge of what is acceptable has been lost and the risk of excesses and injury has increased.

How much long-term harm is done to the victims and the perpetrators at Upper St Clair High School will depend on how they are treated. The paddled can be made into victims with a lasting sense of grievance, with a ready excuse for all their future failures. The paddlers can be made onto felons with their whole lives blighted for a stupid youthful indiscretion. And there could be a lot of employment for the grievance and counselling industries.

Alternatively, the victims can be encouraged to think of themselves as survivors and to put the unpleasant incident behind them. The stupid can not be cured but will grow out of it, when their brains become fully developed. Of cause, if poetic justice was to be implemented ...




 
 
KK

Re: disturbing

July 25 2013, 8:27 AM 

I have now read the news item and viewed the very blurred video. It seems to me, from the limited info available, that it is a great fuss about very little, boys being boys, probably with no real harm being done, although something that should be discouraged. Far worse is being done to children throughout the world and in the USA everyday. Children are being shot, starved, their parents blown up with bombs, etc. often by deliberate government action. Kids playing with a paddle does not rate, in my view.

 
 
KK

Lateral thinking

July 25 2013, 11:11 PM 

Dazed and Confused is a 1993 coming of age comedy film written and directed by Richard Linklater. The film features a large ensemble cast of actors who would later become stars.


Prof n.

The clip you hyperlinked would seem to promote hazing as a fun activity. Is this take maintained when the movie is viewed as a whole?

One of the indications of intelligence is a change of behaviour, procedure or law when something is tried and found not to work. To date, all attempts to ban hazing seem to have failed. One might therefore suspect that hazing serves a purpose. Perhaps it is a rite of passage. If so, and outright bans are not working, is it possible to make hazing less dangerous and damaging?

I would suggest replacing over-large, heavy, rigid paddles with something smaller and more flexible, perhaps a leather paddle or strap. The size would be chosen to match the age and size of the person being hazed.

A new ritual needs to be established. This will take time. A safe ritual may well be better than the alternatives.

Alcohol is known to adversely affect brain development. Its consumption is best avoided by pregnant women, children and teenagers. Alcohol consumption is known to adversely affect judgement and coordination. Ideally, getting drunk would not be a prerequisite for hazers or hazees. It is possible to have fun while sober. Risk taking is much safer when sober. Kids need to be able to discover this.

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 26 2013, 1:12 AM 

I have now found and viewed other clips from Dazed and Confused which show the hazing as bullying without redeeming features. The hazed are not accepted into the fold. Nor do they receive any benefit from their ordeal. The victims may get their revenge in the end. I cannot image many would identify with the bullies if they were to view the whole movie. The paddling excerpt viewed in isolation is misleading. One of the paddles used is dangerously large.

 
 
KK

(Ice?) Hockey Sticks as paddles

July 26 2013, 6:20 AM 

Freshmen are alleged to have been "spanked" with hockey sticks at Upper St. Clair High School. Is this likely? Would it be acceptable if true?

Maximum dimensions:
[linked image]

Hockey Sticks come in different sizes and configurations to match to the size of the hockey player. The size of the shafts diameter, or girth, is also of different for each size configuration. The USA NHL rules limit the maximum length of a hockey stick to 63 inches.

Standard configurations and their lengths are:
-- Junior = 46-53 inches
-- Intermediate = 54 inches
-- Senior = 56-63 inches

Weights vary according to size and whether made of wood or other materials but typically fall in the range 400-500 grams.

The sticks are designed to hit the cylindrical vulcanised rubber punk on the floor. They would seem to be quite unsuitable for use as spanking paddles.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 26 2013, 10:43 PM 

Hello KK

Just because you can point out something worse does not make the thing that was done any better.

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 28 2013, 12:54 AM 

Mommabear2:

Just because you can point out something worse does not make the thing that was done any better.


I fear I have not made myself clear.

When the privileged and pampered (you, Mommabear21, and I) complain about relatively minor matters we greatly risk outraging those whose troubles are far far worse. Those in the West, and particularly in the US, do this routinely, probably out of ignorance or lack of empathy rather than malice.

There are many things far worse than being spanked. You can unintentionally increase the harm done by a spanking by making what could be a minor matter into a major one, thereby unnecessarily turning the recipient into a victim.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 28 2013, 3:49 AM 

All I did was say this story is disturbing. are you telling me it is not?

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 28 2013, 10:54 PM 

Mommabear,

I have insufficient information to form a firm view as to how disturbing the reported case is, or what the most disturbing aspects of it are. I do have some views about the dangers of unnecessarily manufacturing victims. I do not object to you drawing attention to the incident or to you having views on it.

I believe the case is likely to be at the mild end of the disturbing scale. (I have dealt with dead bodies including that of a child so may be more hardened than some.)

I note that the alleged events occurred in a place where I have little influence. I do not know any of the people involved. I do not feel any need to intervene in the case but am not adverse to learning lessons from it, should there be lessons to learn.

What do you make of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kbctwHN_og ? Note the children in the background. The participants all belong to a martial arts fight club and seem to be friends. Is what you see disturbing? Is abuse occurring? Is harm being done?

 
 
Wayne

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 29 2013, 6:00 AM 

KK wrote: "There are many things far worse than being spanked. You can unintentionally increase the harm done by a spanking by making what could be a minor matter into a major one, thereby unnecessarily turning the recipient into a victim."

You're reasoning confounds logic. By that approach, no error should ever be addressed or corrected for fear of "unintentionally" increasing the harm done by drawing attention to the original error.


And to address the point of spanking not being the worst punishment, I would concur that there are in fact "many things far worse than being spanked"---being skinned alive would certainly qualify as one of them. To suggest that on a continuum of bad things where there are some bad things that are worse, even significantly worse than other bad things, that that makes the less bad thing a good thing is nonsense. It just makes it less bad. Approaches to child discipline does not have to only be a choice among bad options.





 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 29 2013, 11:12 PM 

Wayne,

You have totally misunderstood. Please read what I have written above and in a number of other places concerning the unnecessary manufacture of victims.

Please do not attribute words or ideas to me that are not mine and which I do not hold. It is very irritating when you do this.

 
 
KK

More hazing

July 29 2013, 11:29 PM 

Older boys this time. Again, no sign of malice, ill will or power imbalance.

Why do boys do such things? (Do girls have anything equivalent?) It is difficult to control or suppress things that are not understood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZaqP72fNI

 
 
Jenny

Re: More hazing

July 30 2013, 3:41 PM 

Hi KK

Why do boys do such things? (Do girls have anything equivalent?)

Prof N has explained it far better than I could but, in the same type of environment, with the same external pressures, girls would be just the same.

What are often perceived as sex differences are really just due to the different societal pressures on each sex. Prof N (and others) have mentioned CCFs (Combined Cadet Force) in boys' schools where pupils could be taught to be "men" - ready to go out and kill "Johnny Foreigner" (or, at least, send other lesser men out to do it). I doubt there was anything similar in girls' schools. Girls were more likely to be taught to be "ladies" and to shrink away from such brutality.


 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 30 2013, 9:25 PM 

Jenny:

Prof N has explained it far better than I could


Oh dear! Did he?

I did not understand any part of Prof N's explanation. I had assumed the explanation was unclear. You seem to be suggesting it was clear*. If so, it seems I cannot understand English. I find this thought alarming.

* You are known and respected for your clear writing.

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 30 2013, 10:57 PM 

Want do people think of the following? I have already given two of the hyperlinks above. Prof n has been the only one to reply so far.

1. Thailand - unsatisfactory academic performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfYZnsT_GbM

2. Martial arts club birthday "spanking": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kbctwHN_og

3. Congratulations for military promotion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZaqP72fNI

 
 
hcj

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 31 2013, 12:03 AM 

KK asked for views on the three video clips he linked in this thread.

It appears to me that viewers will interpret these images in whichever way suits their pre-conceived ideas.

Prof n sees "small men with big inferiority complexes, letting out their natural sadism."

Wayne agrees with prof n that "the appropriate description for the content of the film is gratuitous violence."

I see a bunch of guys being rather silly but not showing any signs of injury, distress or reluctance to participate.

As to the classroom scene, the master's actions seem pointless to this observer. However, I was not there, I don't know the circumstances so I am not in a position to judge.

Prof n states "this is organised child abuse". I can only say that if that is his view, he does not understand what real child abuse is.

Sadly, we so often pay such close attention to things that are trivial, that we miss the appalling things that are happening just beyond our view.

 
 
KK

The anatomical-metaphysical and techno-political registers

July 31 2013, 12:21 AM 

Michel Foucault (1926 - 1984) was a French philosopher, historian, social theorist, philologist and literary critic. He did not use a pendulum to demonstrate the conservation of momentum and rotation of the Earth - that was Léon Foucault.

Michel was interested in the nature of political and social power and how power is used to control knowledge and is controlled by knowledge. Michel never had the chance to study Another_Lurker's control this forum as he died before the Internet. Doubtless, he would have revised his theories if he had. "Power resides only where men believe it resides." (Lord Varys. Reported by George Martin).

Michel is well known only to certain academics, and to some with an axe to grind or a cause to fight. Michel came up with many weird ideas and invented opaque jargon which helps keep outsiders out.

If you do not understand any of the above do not worry. Just accept that you are an outsider. Most are.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: The anatomical-metaphysical and techno-political registers

July 31 2013, 2:53 PM 

Hi KK,

Normally I get very upset at suggestions that I control this estimable Forum, but I don't do dead French Philosophers an' wotnot 'cos they make me 'ed 'urt so I haven't been reading this thread recently and luckily I completely missed your above effort.

 
 
hcj

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 31 2013, 5:47 PM 

Prof n commented:

I think HCJ has inadvertently misrepresented my view. I did indeed write the comment about child abuse , but that referred to the gratuitous birthday strapping sequence in the gym

I was not seeking to misrepresent your view, but to question your description of that video as child abuse. Frankly, I found the sequence unpleasant to watch and believe the teacher is foolish in following what I regard as a stupid tradition. But I think it is going too far to describe it as child abuse and I doubt that any long-term harm came from the incident.

What worries me far more is that following the (UK) cases of Victoria Climbié and Peter Connelly, we still see examples of what I would describe as real child abuse in the recent death of Daniel Pelka age 4. The details of all these cases are too horrible to contemplate and surely cannot be described by the same words as a rather silly YouTube video?

I think it is incumbent on all of us to watch out for the warning signs where something really serious is happening and take action to prevent further harm. As one for whom it is approaching fast, the same applies to care of vulnerable elderly people.

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 31 2013, 10:17 PM 

Another_Lurker,

"Power resides only where men believe it resides."

If people believe you control this forum then you do, at least to a degree, regardless of your wishes or actions. What people post or do not post is affected by their belief in your power.

 
 
c.farrell

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

July 31 2013, 10:29 PM 

I usually manage to resist the temptation to comment on the views expressed in this forum, but may I say that I find prof. n's opinions about the gym strapping scene utterly bizarre. "One of the more unacceptable videos I have seen" -- Really? What preposterous nonsense. It all looks like harmless fun to me. I am especially annoyed at the careless and sloppy abuse of the term "abuse". When almost anything can be described as "abuse" according to whim, the language is losing all meaning. Please don't bother to respond. I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in fruitless argy-bargy. Suffice to say that KK is, as so often, correct in this case.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 1 2013, 3:21 AM 

Hi Prof.n,

You say above:

As I mentioned before, when i went to Texas a couple of years ago , I was left in the house with Jackie's adopted daughter who was them about 16. Jackie told me where the guns were kept - in case- and my choice was a a 45 or a pump action shotgun.

I am puzzled! Was the weaponry to defend yourself against the young lady? In that case the pump action, preferably with shortened 'pistol grip' stock, was certainly your best bet! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

 
 
hcj

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 1 2013, 11:30 AM 

Wayne wrote:

While the behavior of the teacher in the "silly YouTube video" and the horrific crimes against Daniel Pelka are at far ends from each other on a continuum of the mistreatment of children by adults, they both lie on the same continuum.

I do not agree that these examples lie on the same continuum and indeed they have little in common. Even if I subscribed to your view, I think there would be a clear dividing line.

In the YouTube video, the recipient of the "birthday spanking" is seventeen years old - and can be hardly described as a child. He showed no distress or reluctance to take part and the actions in which he was involved occurred in the presence of a number of witnesses, any one of whom could have intervened if they considered the incident was causing distress.

How can that be compared with the shocking crimes I highlighted earlier or the sickening stories we have read in recent years where individuals have taken advantage of children in their care? As one who is clearly talented in the use of language, do you not understand how your choice of words detracts from the horror of real child abuse?

You go on to say:

How can anyone know from simply watching that no student in the YouTube video suffered any long-term harm from the treatment he received? You doubt that such is possible and that conclusion is likely based on how you think YOU may have responded to such treatment. You cannot know the total effects on each of those students over the long term to that "stupid tradition" that you do not view as child abuse.

Neither of us can draw any definite conclusions from viewing the video, but a combination of experience and observation cannot be totally discounted. I have already described my observations. My experience comes from taking part in such "games" with my friends, at an age comparable with those students shown in the video. To the best of my knowledge and belief it was nothing other than fun for any of us.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 1 2013, 4:28 PM 

Hi Prof.n,

Sorry about that, I'm sure you knew that I didn't really think you needed defending from the young lady!

You say:

Most families I know in Texas seem to keep guns in the house!!!

And why not? After all, in the wise words so often engraved on the products of Mr Colt:

Be not afraid of any man, what e'er may be his size.
If danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalise.

Of course in Texas especially they have a long tradition in these things:

A stranger rode into the town.
His face looked kinda hurt.
He wore a tin star on his chest,
but he wasn't wearing a shirt!

Oops, sorry! On a serious note, and over here rather than over there, school CCFs do have their good points in that they give the opportunity for a group other than the usual academic and sporting elite to laud it over their fellow pupils and grind their faces in the dirt! happy.gif

I didn't join our CCF at school because at that time (this'll make you laugh) I was a left-wing pacifist whose nickname 'Red ....' had nothing whatsoever to do with the colour of his hair, so I had to do Civil Defence instead on Wednesday afternoons. This was great fun, and involved crawling about in artificially created 'end of civilisation as we know it' disaster areas learning how to rescue and care for my fellow citizens when the A-bombs started to rain down on us - and in the 1950s we believed that they just might!

However, I took an interest in the affairs of the CCF, where various of my acquaintance (which generally didn't include the academic or sporting elite of the school happy.gif) occupied positions of power and influence. This came about because in the CCF promotion was on merit. Merit involved completing the necessary courses and then being assessed as competent by hard-bitten assessors in the 'real' regular army, navy and air force.

In general these worthies were long-serving NCOs and Warrant Officers who weren't in the least impressed by the fact that a candidate played for the 1st XV or was scheduled for Oxbridge. What they were interested in was could he field strip and reassemble a bren gun, load and aim a 25 pounder, and lead a platoon in attack, to name but three such tests. And for some reason those who could were often pupils who didn't shine in other areas.

This in turn led to the aforementioned opportunities for other than the usual suspects to oppress and terrorise their fellows. A case I recall was where a well-known sixth form distinguished sportsman made a determined effort to take over the girl friend of a lowly fifth former. However, the sixth form sportsman was a mere rating in the Naval section of the CCF, while the fifth former was the Armoury Sergeant.

All CCF members had their individual bolt action service rifles which had to be cleaned every week and presented for the approval of the armoury staff, failure to reach the required standard involving some dreadful military penalty.

Naturally the Armoury Sergeant had absolutely nothing to do with it, as he was a team manager who didn't concern himself with mundane things like rifle inspections. He had Corporals to do that stuff. However, the stress of trying, and failing, to rid his weapon of the mixture of pulped banana, dirty sump oil and crushed cigarette ends which somehow got into every part of it every week began to tell on the sixth form distinguished sportsman, and he eventually switched his amorous attentions elsewhere.

Now how could you possibly think that an organisation so conducive to the triumph of the under-dog could be a bad thing? happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 1 2013, 7:55 PM 

This may mean the end of school corporal punishment at the Memphis Academy of Health Science or at least one can hope. I would have been the first to join forces with Paula Flowe, one of few honorary life time member of my country that gave Renee, et. al., pause before sharing this honor. Paula to stop their abuse. Shelby County and Memphis seems to be entering into a marriage of sorts with common ground rules.

Another school system ends paddling.

SCP allowed page 29 and 30.

http://www.scsk12.org/SCS/handbook/SCS-Handbook-08-09.pdf

June 2013 discussion.

CLICK

July goodbye SCP.

CLICK

I love Mr Green Jeans. There are so many creative name for paddles that are becoming history.

Sara Lewis told her fellow school board members of her years as a school principal, saying she needed to only mention her paddle, which she called Mister Green Jeans and said, "people would start shaking."

CLICK

Like the tawse and cane they'll be selling on bay or mock paddling in historic tours.

 
 

mommabear2

wtg Shelby County

August 2 2013, 12:20 AM 

good news


No child will be paddled in Shelby County Schools.

The decision came while 7 of the 23 commissioners were not present.The superintendent tried to wait until the next meeting to have the vote, but other members said school starts next week and a policy needs to be in place.The debate began over the age-old form of punishment.

http://wreg.com/2013/07/30/shelby-county-schools-repeal-corporal-punishment/

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 2 2013, 12:24 AM 

More good news, well I guess depending on your perspective

The Marfa Independent School District Superintendent calls the policy outlived in its punishment, but many believe physical force and discipline go hand in hand.

This paddle is a thing of the past for some west Texas school districts.

The new policy at Marfa ISD states students shall not be spanked paddled or subjected to other physical force as a means of discipline.


http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=46674

 
 
KK

Those challenging videos - again

August 11 2013, 11:20 PM 

I have previously drawn attention to three real life "spanking" videos and invited people to comment. Only a few did. As suggested by hjc, those who did comment seem to have interpreted the images in whichever way suited their pre-conceived ideas rather than evaluating them de nova.

I suggest the challenge of these videos is that they do NOT in themselves support current politically correct views. There is no evidence in the videos that the "victims" are being harmed.

Whether events are good or bad is determined in large part by how we respond to them. We can choose whether to be a victim or not.

1. Thailand - unsatisfactory academic performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfYZnsT_GbM

2. Martial arts club birthday "spanking": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kbctwHN_og

3. Congratulations for military promotion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZaqP72fNI


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 12 2013, 1:46 PM 

Hi KK

As you have asked, all three videos seem to illustrate pointless and puerile rituals. I can't see any particular harm in them, though the latter two are of the type often used to intimidate and bully those who do not conform to majority behaviours. I don't understand your reference to "politically correct" in this context.

 
 
KK

Re: Those challenging videos - again

August 17 2013, 9:32 AM 

Thanks to the following for giving their views on the videos I posted: prof.n, Wayne, hcj, c.farrell, Oliver Sydney, Jenny, de Wolf.

Have I missed anybody?

Does anyone else wish to comment, or revise their comments, before I do my analysis?

 
 
hcj

Those videos

August 17 2013, 10:13 AM 

KK, I'd like to add a comment about the Thai schoolroom video.

Faced with a scene of a classroom, kids and a teacher, it is all too easy for us to compare what we are seeing with our own experience. We may think we know the relationships and recognise the events, but unless we understand Thai education, we are not in a good position to make a judgment.

Although I have some knowledge of schools in some Asian countries, I know virtually nothing about Thailand, but I suspect the relationship between the homeroom teacher and the students is quite different from that we may have experienced in our own lives. The teacher may be regarded by the parents as sharing responsibility for the discipline of their children far more than in the West, where students are now "customers" for the "service" provided by teachers.

Before we criticise, we need more information about the true story behind what we are seeing.


 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 17 2013, 10:54 AM 

Does anyone else wish to comment, or revise their comments, before I do my analysis?

If you allow me another 24 hours, I will comment. I tried to access the videos the other day, but only two were accessible (the other returned an error message). I find on retrying I now can access all three, but am on the verge of going out for the evening.

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 18 2013, 6:21 AM 

Comments on the videos...

On the first - that classroom seems to me to be ridiculously chaotic considering what is happening at the front of the room. I believe corporal punishment to be a serious matter that should be treated seriously, and it doesn't look to me like anybody in that classroom is doing so. Even the teacher seems amused at one point. I don't know the culture involved, so it's difficult to stand in judgement, but I really wonder what the point of the punishment is in this case, what if anything it is expected to accomplish.

When it comes to the second video, my experience is very much that there is a significant group of young men and boys will often seek out physical danger, or even physical pain, as a test of manhood, and that's what I think we are seeing there. Personally, I do not believe that it is a good idea for such tests to replicate legitimate corporal punishment, because that's intended to serve a different purpose, but the question then arises as to what is legitimate corporal punishment - the type of action we see here - the administration of a belt or strap to the buttocks would certainly be regarded as legitimate corporal punishment in some cultural situations, but it may not be in the culture these young men come from, given their age - a generation ago, it might have been. Considering this seems to be a martial arts type environment, I wonder somewhat at the need for this type of apparent ritual, given that most martial arts groupings I have experienced have more than enough 'mahood' type ritual involving physical tests as part of them but I can't see much harm coming from this - provided it is strictly consensual. I have some concerns by the fact that there does seem to be a somewhat older man (though not much older) directing proceedings. I'd be much more comfortable if I knew why he is in a position of authority over the others - if it is, as it well could be, because he is a true master of what he is teaching with many years of experience, I would not be as worried, as much as if his influence is merely based on incremental experience.

The third video causes me significant concern as a retired Army officer. Now, before continuing, I should mention that at the moment, Australia has significant concernings about discipline in the Australian Defence Force Academy - to be specific a great deal of concern that a significant number of our young people who are training to be officers, and who are in their late teens or very early twenties are engaging in inappropriate, and dangerous behaviours, including hazing, and other forms of serious harrassment. There are also connected concerns that such activities may be being tolerated or even supported by the actions of more senior officers, so my level of sensitivity and awareness of such issues may be higher now than at other times, but even so, I think I'd still have concerns about what I am seeing in this third video. It's nothing to do with punishment and is closer to the type of activities I mentioned earlier that involved young men and boys seeking out danger, pain, and discomfort - and if I thought this was purely an action of that type among equals or near peers, I'd have less concerns about it - but there's a problem with that. The soldier who has put up the video says it shows something that happened when he was promoted to Specialist. In the US Army, a Specialist is a rank techically equal in seniority to a Corporal, but without the status of being a non-commissioned-officer (a Corporal is an NCO). I can't tell the ranks of everybody in the video, but a couple of them are referred to as Sergeant, and one whose insignia can be seen is a Sergeant First Class. Sergeant First Class is not only a NCO rank, it's the first of the Senior NCO ranks of the US Army - the gulf in rank between a Sergeant First Class ( a Senior NCO) and a Specialist (not an NCO of any type) is quite considerable. The junior man is placed in a difficult position in this type of activity, and I believe the senior man should know better than to let the situation occur by being involved in it. Having said that, I could allow for some exceptions. This seems to be a pretty small group of people. There may be an unusual unit structure in operation, which may lead to a closer level of close contact between disparate ranks than is normal. If that's the case, the concern is less. But again, I would emphasise that, personally, I can't see what relevance this last video has to corporal punishment of any sort - the first two, I can see a clear link, to me this one is much more divorced from that concept.

 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

August 18 2013, 4:55 PM 

At least one girl and more than a few children were present in that Martial Acts exhibition.

There would be pressure on me not to cry in front of a girl at a time when I may have been trying to prove to her and her girl friends that I had testicular fortitude or worse still none at all. How much would times have changed in the 1960's? Boys are boys and old boys are old boys and even more so in Arlington TX. BTW I had and still do an abundance of both. And if I didn't would I want to share that about myself today?

It's prime market to fuel fetishes at the expense of a 17-year-old-boy. What if that were one on your close family member. Wouldn't you want to have it taken down?

Another angle of that scene.

http://youtu.be/BwmpNjlI1K8



 
 

mommabear2

Interesting news.

August 21 2013, 11:01 PM 

School teachers may face three months imprisonment or Tk10,000 as fine or both for practicing corporal punishment at schools if the ministry of educations new legislation is passed.

The provision on corporal punishment is part of a new law Education Law 2013 that the ministry has recently drafted to ensure rights related to education and protect students.

http://www.dhakatribune.com/education/2013/aug/18/disciplinary-action-mulled-corporal-punishment-schools

This next story has nothing to do with scp or schools for that matter. I post this story because it is really heart warming and inspiring.

http://espn.go.com/espn/features/mywish/story/_/id/9568229/my-wish-kevin-lee-gets-wish-meet-seattle-seahawks-quarterback-russell-wilson

Kevin is most mentally tough young man on the field that day.

 
 

mommabear2

this is a weird one.

September 4 2013, 11:26 PM 

In yet another instance of corporal punishment being used to discipline students, a student of class VIII had to be admitted to a hospital after he was punished by Principal for cracking a joke in the playground.

Mehrab Mushtaq Wani, a fourteen-year-old student of a private school in Wazbagh, Hyderpora area of Srinagar, was punished by his Principal. Unable to walk, he was admitted to Shri Maharaja Hari Singh Hospital on Friday with a swollen right arm and neck.

http://www.kashmirlife.net/corporal-punishment-in-school-lands-8th-class-student-in-hospital/


I posted on the wrong thread. really need to pay more attention

 
 
American Way

Superintendent Nate Crowden

September 8 2013, 11:54 PM 

I'm bringing this to the attention to the readers of this estimable Forum to dispel some myths. Some of the biggest proponents of paddling would have us believe that these things in America don't still occur. Nate Crowden doesn't seem all that concerned. His paddle worked for him.

It pays to paddle. Delta High School Principal is now collecting $84,545 as the district superintendent. He was promoted less than a year after he sang the paddles praises in July 2006. Nate Crowden's District R-V is composed of 300 students. It may not sound like a lot of money but it is plenty to live on for an area that has a relatively low standard of living.

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1136924.html

Kansas City Star, Missouri, 30 November 2005

DELTA, Mo. As he sits in his office at Delta High School, wearing blue jeans and a Nike T-shirt, Nate Crowden reaches to his left.Atop a filing cabinet is a paddle, not unlike the one used at this rural, southeast Missouri school when Crowden was a student here in the 1970s. These days, Crowden is the principal.We dont have any discipline problems here, said Crowden, holding the narrow wooden paddle. And one of the reasons we dont is because we use this.

Crowden, said its simple embarrassment that makes paddling so effective. Sometimes, hell walk to the classroom of an unruly student and swat him or her right there out in the hallway. The other students arent watching, he said, but they know whats going on.

And then there are students who ask to be paddled, who would rather take a few swats on the rump than an in-school suspension.Ninety percent of the kids in this building will say, Give me the swats, and it wont happen again,? Crowden said.This works here. Were going to stick with what works.




 
 

mommbearof2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 12 2013, 12:40 AM 


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 16 2013, 11:03 PM 


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 17 2013, 12:08 AM 

Hi Mommabear2,

There is some interesting follow-up on the New York Times article you link above, including a comment from the father of an ADHD child who expresses the opinion that it would have been better for his son's school career if corporal punishment had been used instead of the ISS or full suspension to which the boy was subjected.

This was the subject of a previous thread here in which some claims were made to support that contention. As I make clear in that thread my own experience certainly indicates that the father concerned (pseudonym 'AmarilloMike') makes a very valid point.

 
 

mommabear2

interesting reply Another_Lurker

September 17 2013, 1:44 AM 

If "AmarilloMike" thinks his kid should have gotten his butt busted then he should be the one doing it himself and not leave it up to a teacher or principal with unknown intentions. And I would call getting a bachelor of science in mechanical engineering doing very well despite not getting his butt busted at school.

If I had to bet would guess that he did get his butt busted by mom & dad when he was younger and that is what helped cause his anti social behavior when he was in high school. I admit could be 100 percent wrong about that but think of it this way, The over whelming majority of parents who do not spank would never let anybody do it to their children, so if they would let a stranger do it they would have no problem doing it themselves.


 
 

mommabear2

the mothers post

September 25 2013, 12:46 PM 

The mother who started the story about school Leeds City district posted a comment in the new york times that is very valid. Wendy Chandler daughter overheard her teacher threatening another student if he did not knock off his behavior he was going to see the administrator who had the paddle. Why should her child have to listen to those threats? Wonder what it also does for student moral? bet a lot of them feel like they are walking on egg shells?

Would love to hear a response to that point Another_Lurker. If you have the time and are willing

 
 
American Way

Questionable Value of Deterrence of CP.

September 25 2013, 2:31 PM 

mommabear2 I'm not an advocate of deterrence after being hit in second grade with a microphone with the principal threatening the same thing will happen to them. My sister who lauded our mother of blessed mother of standing up for us. She said I'll do the hitting if there needs to be any hitting done. It was used as deterrent but we knew our mother but not so our teachers. Girls knew they were sent to the office less often but she went through school with a servile fear that she remembers to this day and I'm she is not the only one.

She was none to please when her son-in-law, a product of parochial school, and her daughter, not one, decided to send them to parochial school. He went to a Polish Catholic school during the waning days of CP in the early eighties where the Polish sisters taught. His older brothers were hit but by his time there was only a handful of Nuns He favors a Catholic in the early years for structure and then to move on to a large public high school to interact with the future more diverse citizenry.

Their folks are well aware of my sister's apprehensions, a retired school teacher/administrator. There are codes of conduct signed in their school promising that they will foster a safe environment free of corporal punishment or verbal abuse. They know, somewhat kiddingly, if they so much as touch a hair tell them I know lawyers. The good news is that it was once a school run by French Canadian Nuns where there isn't one in the school. I guess they all want to be priest and the new Pope won't allow it. The remnant of that history is they must learn French. That is somewhat unique for a country of so many Latinos.

This was previously posted but is a strong argument against CP in the upper years considering the boy's fantasy world and their hormones on overdrive during the declining days of the age of innocence. At 3:30 there is a spanking reference.

CLICK


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: the mother's post

September 25 2013, 4:48 PM 

Hello Mommabear2,

After your very trite and insubstantial response to my September 17 2013, 12:08 AM post above (did you even look at the links I provided?) I'd decided that despite a promising start you were just another typical anti-CP campaigner with a closed mind and an 'there's only one valid viewpoint, mine!' attitude, so it wasn't worth discussing anything with you. However, Another_Lurker seldom stays gloomy about anything for long, so I'll have another go.

My impression of Wendy Chandler from your earlier link was that she was looking for trouble and was determined to find it at all costs, whatever it took. Scrawling all that stuff on the 'no CP' form was totally pointless. Such forms are seldom read by anybody, not even clerks, until they are need to be referenced for a specific case. They are simply filed away until needed. If she was unhappy about something relevant to her child's education she should have written to, or sought an interview with, the child's teacher or a senior person in the school such as the Principal. and if she still wasn't happy, then she should have picked another school.

When she did subsequently follow something like the appropriate course of action she was given what would seem to any reasonable person a perfectly sensible and proper answer; if she ticked the right boxes her child wouldn't be corporally punished. So what's to complain to the New York Times about? If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you can't bear to have your child in a school where corporal punishment is used then get another school - or don't buy a house in a school district that uses CP.

You don't link the second complaint to the NY Times, but you say she complained that her child had overheard another child being threatened with paddling. Well big deal! Kiddies aren't generally fragile and delicate creatures who are greatly troubled or rendered terrified by a vague threat, Well at least, they aren't unless their parents deliberately make them that way. Children positively love and devour stories about monsters and things that go bump in the night. To a kiddie the thought of a teacher with a paddle is just another thing that goes bump in the night. They know what the paddle's for, they know you have to be naughty to get it, and if, like me, they don't want to get it they behave themselves, and quite right too!

Every little lad in the Infant school I attended was convinced that if he was sent to the Headmistress for naughtiness he'd be caned on the bare bottom. That was what older children told you when you were starting school. It had never happened to them, but always to somebody they 'knew about'. In fact the Headmistress was a lovely lady who'd taught in the town for generations and I doubt if she'd ever physically chastised a child in her life. But the 'lurking monster' of the Headmistress, the cane and the bare bottom was always around, even if it gradually diminished after the first few weeks. It did no harm, we didn't live in a constant state of terror at school, far from it, there were far too many other interesting things to think about and do.

And not only did it do no harm, it did some good. Just in case, we behaved ourselves as far as our individual temperaments permitted. In a school environment that's certainly no bad thing at all. In the event I was in the first group of children in my year to get into trouble with anything but a very small 't' and to be corporeally punished at school as a consequence. And I can tell you, scared stiff as I was, I was relieved that we were marched into young Miss B's classroom which opened directly off the playground, and not into the school and down the corridor to Headmistress Miss O's room!

I didn't enjoy what happened one tiny little bit, but it didn't do me any harm in the long run. It certainly had a bigger effect on me than on most of the children in that queue to be smacked, but where CP is used reactions do vary. Wendy Chandler's daughter overheard the threat to another pupil that the paddle might be used. I'm sure her mother has told her that she's exempt from corporal punishment, but she'll have taken on board that if you're naughty you might get punished, if not paddled then something else. Normally it won't destroy her life, or, as you put it, make her feel like she's walking on egg shells. She'll get on with her life, enjoy school, and if she does step over a boundary and get punished in some way she'll take what comes, deal with it, and learn whatever lessons her character disposes her to learn from it

That's if she was a normal kid, without her mother's malign influence. As it is her mother will probably reduce her to a nervous wreck about the horrors of corporal punishment, even if she isn't subject to it. Years down the line she'll be like the pathetic specimen once quoted here (haven't got time to locate the reference just now, but I'll try later) whose whole life was a disaster area and who blamed it all on the fact that he'd seen other children spanked at school. He hadn't been spanked himself, but he'd sure as heck been thoroughly worked over by somebody like Wendy Chandler, which had done him a damn sight more harm!

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 12:43 AM 

Hello Another_Lurker

I want to respond to 3 points that you have made.

I do agree with you that she is rocking the boat and is looking for trouble with her actions. But I have to ask since those parents see scp as wrong why is it a bad thing that Wendy and her husband want to get it banned? Maybe they could have handled this situation better but I honestly prefer the way they did it. It opens up a dialogue about what is acceptable in the public schools.

Another_Lurker wrote

"When she did subsequently follow something like the appropriate course of action she was given what would seem to any reasonable person a perfectly sensible and proper answer; if she ticked the right boxes her child wouldn't be corporally punished. So what's to complain to the New York Times about? If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you can't bear to have your child in a school where corporal punishment is used then get another school - or don't buy a house in a school district that uses CP."

To say her child would not get paddled is a little bit misleading lurker. Sometimes paper work get lost or sometimes the school forgets see if the kid is on the "no paddle list." Or even worse then that is when they ask for permission don't get it then later say oh that is just a "courtesy."

Another_Lurker wrote

"You don't link the second complaint to the NY Times, but you say she complained that her child had overheard another child being threatened with paddling. Well big deal! Kiddies aren't generally fragile and delicate creatures who are greatly troubled or rendered terrified by a vague threat, Well at least, they aren't unless their parents deliberately make them that way. Children positively love and devour stories about monsters and things that go bump in the night. To a kiddie the thought of a teacher with a paddle is just another thing that goes bump in the night. They know what the paddle's for, they know you have to be naughty to get it, and if, like me, they don't want to get it they behave themselves, and quite right too!"

Speaking as some one who has never experienced physical punishment at home or school I can tell you it would have freaked me out at 5 to hear kids get threatened with a paddle at school. I can't remember how old I was but do remember a few times just being around children who were being physical punishment when out shopping and it freaked me out. As for the stories about monsters that is a lot different then scp in many ways it is not even a valid comparison. But I know this to be 100 percent true wink.gif (look below)

http://youtu.be/TA_hMq-JUOE?t=2m23s

As for your cheap shots about me not even gonna respond to them lurker. I am not gonna get down in the gutter with you.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 2:06 AM 

Hello Mommabear2,

I questioned whether I should have bothered responding to your request for input, and clearly I made the wrong decision. Life experience teaches me that a lost cause is generally always going to be just that. But I live in hope that I'll be wrong. It must be all that school CP I saw when I was a kid. happy.gif

You stated above:

To say her child would not get paddled is a little bit misleading lurker. Sometimes paper work get lost or sometimes the school forgets see if the kid is on the "no paddle list." Or even worse then that is when they ask for permission don't get it then later say oh that is just a "courtesy."

For the record I didn't say that Wendy Chandler's daughter wouldn't be paddled if she simply filled in the option form correctly. I said that when she went through the correct channels she received a sensible assurance to that effect from the school.

I realise that occasionally accidents and deliberate wrong actions occur with regard to parental school CP authorities. Where such incidents have been documented here and I've participated in the subsequent discussion you'll find that nobody deprecates those responsible more than me. That's if you take the trouble to look of course. Exactly the same thing applies to schools ignoring their own rules about the way children should be paddled.

You say:

Speaking as some one who has never experienced physical punishment at home or school I can tell you it would have freaked me out at 5 to hear kids get threatened with a paddle at school.

That is entirely your affair. By any experience I can bring to bear on the subject you were not typical and you'd certainly have found things very difficult if you'd shared the childhood of myself and my contemporaries, or indeed many children in the UK until school CP stopped.

As for cheap shots, I wonder if that is an anti-CP campaigner synonym for criticism? That isn't what cheap shots means in grown up language, and if any of my long standing fellow contributors can identify any real cheap shots directed at you in my September 25 2013, 4:48 PM post above I'd invite them to point them out to me.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 5:35 AM 

You have called me closed minded, a lost cause, questioned my work ethic, and have called me a child. No that is not a attack on my character at all :/

Want to make two points about the opt outs. Firs you are right I did represent you a little bit and am sorry I did it, was honestly was in a major rush when typing that should have payed a little more attention. Also wish I made a more generic argument instead of talking about wendy kids because with all this press coverage her children are safe, if they ever hit her with a wooden board that entire town would look real bad. I would and still argue that my point is very valid one.

Sure if I grew up in a environment like you did would probably get used to it, but just want to make one very important point. Some people who have been kidnapped have been able to bond with the person who kidnapped them. It is a defense mechanism that I honestly can not and will not even try to explain right now. but if you want to do more research on it look up the term "capture bonding."

And not saying scp is even close to the same as kidnapping, also freely admit that kidnapping is way worse then scp so please do not accuse me of that.

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 7:33 AM 

Mommabear: "You have called me closed minded, a lost cause, questioned my work ethic, and have called me a child. "


Please! Who is "you"? When and where were these things said?


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 12:11 PM 

Hello KK

I am sure if you were to read the last 5 or 6 posts you could figure out I was talking about Another_Lurker. As for your other question these are the quotes

"After your very trite and insubstantial response to my September 17 2013, 12:08 AM post above (did you even look at the links I provided?) I'd decided that despite a promising start you were just another typical anti-CP campaigner with a closed mind and an 'there's only one valid viewpoint, mine!' attitude, so it wasn't worth discussing anything with you."

"I questioned whether I should have bothered responding to your request for input, and clearly I made the wrong decision. Life experience teaches me that a lost cause is generally always going to be just that. But I live in hope that I'll be wrong. "

"As for cheap shots, I wonder if that is an anti-CP campaigner synonym for criticism? That isn't what cheap shots means in grown up language, and if any of my long standing fellow contributors can identify any real cheap shots directed at you in my September 25 2013, 4:48 PM post above I'd invite them to point them out to me."

and this was on the teacher who paddle thread.

"Not if you are doing your job properly and managing the environment correctly it doesn't. Perhaps if you concentrated on doing that job instead of proselytising to your young charges things might run much better!"


 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 26 2013, 1:22 PM 

Hi mommabear2

Sometimes paper work get lost or sometimes the school forgets see if the kid is on the "no paddle list."

That's why schools should operate an opt-in policy rather than an opt-out. Opt-in is fail-safe because, when if the paperwork gets lost, the teacher's authority to administer CP is lost too. The rules should also require the teacher administering CP to prove he or she had sight of the opt-in authority at the time by endorsing it with details of the punishment.

Or even worse then that is when they ask for permission don't get it then later say oh that is just a "courtesy."

Thus proving the school has no respect for parents or their wishes.


 
 

mommabear2

nothing really to do with scp, oh well.

September 26 2013, 8:47 PM 

I would love to know a lot more about this story but have to say good job coach. These kids are learning a lot more from this then a few whacks on the butt with a paddle.

http://now.msn.com/matt-labrum-utah-football-coach-suspends-entire-union-high-school-team-due-to-bad-behavior

 
 

mommabear2

Hey Jenny!

September 26 2013, 9:04 PM 

Still against scp but have to agree with you that opt in's are way better then opt outs. On your second point agree but want to add something to your statement. I think that a lot of parents don't respect the school system either, think it has to work both ways in order to be real effective.

 
 
KK

Compilation of slights and insults

September 26 2013, 9:07 PM 

Mommabear: "You [Another_Lurker] have called me closed minded, a lost cause, questioned my work ethic, and have called me a child."
________________

Another_Lurker: September 25, 2013, 4:48 PM

"After your very trite and insubstantial response to my September 17, 2013, 12:08 AM post above (did you even look at the links I provided?) I'd decided that despite a promising start you were just another typical anti-CP campaigner with a closed mind and an 'there's only one valid viewpoint, mine!' attitude, so it wasn't worth discussing anything with you."
________________

Another_Lurker: September 26, 2013, 2:06 AM

"I questioned whether I should have bothered responding to your request for input, and clearly I made the wrong decision. Life experience teaches me that a lost cause is generally always going to be just that. But I live in hope that I'll be wrong."

[. . .]

"As for cheap shots, I wonder if that is an anti-CP campaigner synonym for criticism? That isn't what cheap shots means in grown up language, and if any of my long standing fellow contributors can identify any real cheap shots directed at you in my September 25 2013, 4:48 PM post above I'd invite them to point them out to me."
________________

Mommabear: "And this was on the teacher who paddle thread." July 27, 2013, 12:27 AM

Another_Lurker: "Not if you are doing your job properly and managing the environment correctly it doesn't. Perhaps if you concentrated on doing that job instead of proselytising to your young charges things might run much better!"
________________


Please advise of any errors or omissions.

The above excerpts are interesting in they show how two individuals can personalise comments and arguments differently.

One of the risks of encouraging children with constant praise and positive reinforcement for their every effort, no matter its size or value, is that they are likely to cope poorly if such encouragement is not forthcoming or, worse, if their efforts are criticised.

Cheap shot: an unnecessarily aggressive and unfair remark directed at a defenseless person.


 
 

mommabear2

Hello KK.

September 26 2013, 11:50 PM 

KK you have no idea what make me happy, make me sad, what make me scared, what makes me mad, and honestly you don't know anything about me so please stop pretending you do. I honestly do not care what some strangers I will never ever meet online thinks about me or my opinions. I do find it funny if he was to say those things in school he could have gotten slippered or caned, maybe they did not do it hard enough for him to learn to be nice to people? idk (I don't know)

Then again maybe I have paranoid personality disorder idk

 
 

mommabear2

Question for you Jenny.

September 27 2013, 1:19 AM 

Earlier I pointed out a good argument that was made by a mother who started complaining to the media about the fact the school she is sending her kid to still paddles children. She said that her daughter over heard a teacher threaten a young boy that if he did not behave he would be going to the administrator with paddle. Just wondering what are your thoughts about that matter?

http://prntscr.com/1togde

 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 27 2013, 2:37 AM 

Hi mommabear2

Earlier I pointed out a good argument that was made by a mother who started complaining to the media about the fact the school she is sending her kid to still paddles children. She said that her daughter over heard a teacher threaten a young boy that if he did not behave he would be going to the administrator with paddle. Just wondering what are your thoughts about that matter?

Tricky one. A similar issue was raised before in the "Would You use CP as a Teacher?" thread. See posts by Doctor Dominium and me starting 23rd March 2010

I'll presume the boy was not opted so we have a conflict between the wishes of the girl's parents and the wishes of the boy's. The wishes of each set of parents should be given equal precedence. Simply banning CP in that school would mean the girl's parents' wishes overriding those of the boy's parents.

There is an equal argument for not allowing the girl to be opted out. It's possible the boy might be distressed by hearing the girl being threatened with a "good telling off" knowing that, had he done whatever she did, he would have been paddled.

As a first step, teachers should not threaten any child with CP in the hearing of an opted out child. A child might be upset knowing his or her friend had been beaten but that would apply even if the friend had been beaten by his or her parents.

It's the job of parents who chose not to use CP to ensure their children know they will not be subject to it.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 27 2013, 12:06 PM 

Hello Jenny!

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my question, I do agree with everything you said but just want to respond to two points you made.

Jenny Wrote.

"The wishes of each set of parents should be given equal precedence. Simply banning CP in that school would mean the girl's parents' wishes overriding those of the boy's parents. "

While that is 100 percent true just want to add that nothing is stopping mom and dad from spanking the boy if they felt he has been naughty enough.

Jenny Wrote

"I'll presume the boy was not opted so we have a conflict between the wishes of the girl's parents and the wishes of the boy's."

He probably is not opted out but since teacher are not allowed to use cp doubt she knows for 100 percent certainty. but like you said teacher should not make those kind of threats.

 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 27 2013, 1:11 PM 

Hi mommabear2

While that is 100 percent true just want to add that nothing is stopping mom and dad from spanking the boy if they felt he has been naughty enough.

Excellent point, I don't know why I didn't think of it myself. sad.gif OK, it was late and I was tired. wink.gif

That's the answer, remove all SCP and leave it to parents. If a child seriously misbehaves and the school thinks CP is appropriate, the parents can be so informed and left to make the final decision. If the parents' approach doesn't work and the child continues to seriously misbehave, the child can be excluded from the school and the parents required to make other arrangements. As parents, unlike teachers, are not protected by the "shield laws", they could also be prosecuted if they beat their child excessively.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 27 2013, 10:03 PM 

Hello Jenny

Although I agree school should get out of the spanking altogether that was not my point at all. It was that since parents have the right to do it's a lot more fair then you are making it sound.

Although we passionately disagree thank you for your thought provoking arguments. I really do respect you and will miss you when I go Jenny.


 
 
American Way

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

September 27 2013, 10:30 PM 

mommabear2 we will all miss you when you go.

 
 
Jenny

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

October 1 2013, 2:10 PM 

Hi mommabear2

Although I agree school should get out of the spanking altogether that was not my point at all. It was that since parents have the right to do it's a lot more fair then you are making it sound.

I didn't think I was making it sound unfair. It might be a bit unfair because two children could commit exactly the same offence, both be reported to their respective parents (by the school) but only one gets spanked because only that child's parents use CP. There the possibility that teachers might make false allegations against a child but, hopefully, parents know their children well enough to be able to judge the veracity.

Although we passionately disagree thank you for your thought provoking arguments.

I'm not sure we disagree on much. My experiences have taught me that it's possible for SCP to be used fairly and responsibly. Reports from others have gone a long way to convincing me it usually wasn't. In those cases, I agree it should be banned or, if already banned, not re-introduced.

I really do respect you and will miss you when I go Jenny.

As I do you.



 
 

mommabear2

Board Of Education

December 10 2013, 10:51 PM 

It looks like this documentary is done and is ready to be screened. From reading the description of the documentary it does not sound that fair and balanced like they told Renee it would be.

http://stopabusecampaign.com/feature/board-of-education?fb_action_ids=1438004469746969&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=[398005833665048]&action_type_map=[%22og.likes%22]&action_ref_map=[]


 
 

Brian ONC

Re: Board of Education

December 12 2013, 9:19 AM 

Hello Mommabear2,

I cannot believe that nobody has welcomed you back yet. This bodes ill for our estimable Forum as it probably means that my very greatly esteemed fellow contributor American Way is absent again. Let us hope his absence is only temporary.

Anyway, to business. May I please say a personal welcome back, you have been sadly missed. Have you visited one of those dreadful fast food establishments where patrons are paddled after the meal yet, and if so where can we find the pictures please?

With regard to The Board of Education film you say above:

It looks like this documentary is done and is ready to be screened. From reading the description of the documentary it does not sound that fair and balanced like they told Renee it would be.

I am very sorry but you must be wrong about that! I am sure the film is completely fair and unbiased. If you are right it would mean that my alter ego, that dreadful Another_Lurker fellow, was correct in his ridiculous predictions here and here. That would never do, as it is well known in this estimable Forum that Another_Lurker is always wrong. Thus I am sure that the film is completely balanced and fair in its presentation of the respective cases, just as its then producer Linda Balaban suggested that it would be when trying to involve Renee here. happy.gif

 
 
KK

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

December 13 2013, 3:51 AM 

This forum is dominated by speakers of the English language and English language news. Who else in the world has an interest in corporal punishment? I carried out a rough and ready Google search of various languages and found the following.

Chinese, font not available, 3,340,000
English, corporal punishment, 3,040,000
Japanese, font not available, 1,770,000
Persian, font not available, 1,100,000
Indonesian, hukuman badani, 880,000
Malay, hukuman dera, 445,000
Russian, font not available, 302,000
Urdu, font not available, 243,000
Arabic, font not available, 226,000
French, châtiment corporel, 170,000
Africaans, lyfstraf, 154,000
Portuguese, castigos corporais, 145,000
German, körperliche Züchtigung, 87,400
Hindi, font not available, 76,800
Italian, punizioni corporali, 72,300
Dutch, lijfstraffen, 54,500

 
 
hcj

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

December 13 2013, 9:45 AM 

Perhaps add South Korea 1,370,000. However, how do the numbers of hits relate to the number of those who are literate in the language that was used for the search?

 
 
KK

CP hits

December 13 2013, 6:17 PM 

hcj,

Thanks. South Korea should certainly be added to the list and probably other languages.

The number of hits could be scaled for differences in the internet-using populations by searching for other words of likely wide interest, eg. "school".

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

December 15 2013, 2:27 AM 

Hello KK,

I greatly admire the dedicated research you put in here for so many subjects, and I would not wish to denigrate it in any way. However, I wonder if there may be a fatal flaw in your figures above unless you are familiar with all the languages involved at the colloquial level.

Can you be sure that in the various languages involved, the term for 'corporal punishment', if it actually exists as a colloquially used term at all, is simply a literal translation of the English? In my experience web translation services will happily string an English adjective and a noun, such as 'corporal' and 'punishment' together and give you a literal translation thereof. But from personal experience I am quite certain this is not necessarily a reliable method of finding what caning, whipping, paddling etc. are generically referred to in the language concerned.

I have no substantial knowledge of any spoken language except English, but on a number of occasions I have tried to conduct a correspondence with native speakers of various foreign languages using dictionaries, and latterly, the various web translation services. Some web translation services are better than others, but they have all produced more mirth than understanding in my correspondents.

Another small but significant point. When I Google the words corporal and punishment together in that order I get 2,960,000 hits, which is as near as makes no difference to the 3,040,000 hits you quote above. But that isn't what you should be Googling. That will find all instances where both corporal and punishment occur in the same page but not necessarily together.

You could try searching for "corporal punishment", the two words encased in double quotes. That used find all the instances where the words were used together in order, regardless of capitalisation. It still does something like that, but due to Google's tinkering with things it is not as reliable as it once was. When I do that I get the much lower figure of 1,150,000 hits.

But strictly speaking, according to Google, if you want to find pages which contain the term corporal punishment with the words in that exact order you should now be using the verbatim search and sadly that doesn't even tell you how many hits are generated! sad.gif

 
 
KK

No fatalities, so far

December 15 2013, 2:59 AM 

EAL,

I can categorically declare, that has far as I know, my rough and ready searches have killed no one. But it is early days and I can not tell what effect my research and posting will have in the decades and centuries ahead.

I expect very little from my searches. I used Google translations of the term "corporal punishment" and reported what I found. I did this after realizing that not all information and discussion of SCP is in written in English. My effort was a first step rather than the final word on foreign language searching. Only those fluent in a language, and who are internet search savvy have a hope of properly searching for items in their own language. Nevertheless, I did find a few items of interest and know some of the languages worth investigating further.

One trick I use is to translate back into English words I have translated from English to see if I get back the starting word(s).

 
 

mommabear2

update story: destin holmes bullying.

December 29 2013, 2:28 AM 

I just want to update everybody about a story I highlighted in a attempt demonstrate why school should not be allowed to use physical force on kids. I also want to make it clear that Moss Point Mississippi can not paddle students, nor should they be able to given this high level of INCOMPETENCE!


http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/message/1365493787/Re-+QUESTIONS+YOU+ALWAYS+WANTED+TO+ASK+TWP+II

The southern poverty law center (splc) has filed a lawsuit against the Moss Point Mississippi school district for failing to prevent "pervasive anti-LGBT bullying and harassment committed by students and even faculty members and administrators." Here are a few highlighted of the lawsuit filed against Moss Point. (only edited out a offensive word that is probably against site rules)

"8 Other students who are gay and/or dressed in a gender~variant fashion were subjected to similar harassment by peers and staff, and were also harshly disciplined. A gay male student was a'aid to use the restroom because students threatened to attack him, and he was physically assaulted by other students because he was open about his sexual orientation. - Students often told him, f****** you dont deserve to live. Because of such harassment, this student in fact attempted to commit suicide. Another student was repeatedly and publicly singled out by District staff to be punished for his failure to dress in a stereotypically masculine fashion. A female student was physically attacked, publicly ridiculed, and punished by District staff for wearing clothes associated with the female gender or for carying a purse, all because she was transgender. Several of these students were repeatedly referred to as it, as was D.H., by both District staff and students. The District ignored students reports and pleas for assistance.

9. Despite numerous reports and requests for assistance throughout the school year from D.H., her grandmother, and father, the District took no constructive action to address the harassment. Similar requests from the parents of other gender-variant and/or-LGBT youth within the District were also ignored. Instead of remedying the harassment, the District partook in discriminatory acts.

10. Mental health providers working closely with students across the District made requests that were similarly ignored. Even after D.H.s suicide ideation became known at school, when her case manager attempted to speak with Principal Payton about the need to remedy the harassment she faced, Payton stated he would not follow the case managers guidelines because, when you are in my school, you follow my lead since I allow you to be here..

http://sp.lc/19tSdk4

Honest question for anybody reading this, would you really trust these "adults" to use any type of physical punishment on your kids? Everybody should know my answer but will answer indirectly in my own way. I would not trust those clowns to watch my dog.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Brian the socket puppet lurker

I find it funny that for some one who regretted responding to me (lost cause) you seem to posting replies to all my posts as of late. I also find it funny that some one who has accused me of being a socket pocket is using one himself to respond to my posts. I am not saying this in the hope you stop responding to me but because I find the irony in all this Mr. Lurker.

Another_lurker although we probably do not agree on much I have to say this from the bottom of my heart. I do think you are a smart, genuine, and kind old chap who has challenged me pretty good on a few issues. I really do respect you and thank you for that as well.

I am not defending the producer( or whoever made the post) for slightly mislead Renee but want to make these point. Not all ideas are created equal and should never be treated like they are! A very good example of this is when American educators have more rights then a parent because of these STUPID unfair immunity laws that protect teacher as long as they follow the board policy and act in good faith when using physical punishment. On a side note how the hell do you prove that a teacher is acting in bad faith? Think you have just as easy time proving bigfoot really exists.

Go Seahawks

 
 

Another_Lurker

Those sock puppets

December 29 2013, 9:00 AM 

Hello Mommabear2,

Thank you for your kind words, though I'm not sure about that 'old chap'. While one might one's self occasionally comment wryly about one's age, one hopes that other people will think of one as being late middle aged! happy.gif

I don't recall referring to you as a socket puppet, a socket pocket, or even a sock puppet, but if I have please accept my apologies. I am unacquainted with the nature of socket puppets and socket pockets but if you say that you are not either of these I am happy to accept your assurance on the matter. Sock puppets I do know a little bit about, and I'm pretty sure you are not one of those either.

And nor, for the record, am I. A sock puppet is a spurious character operated by a participant in a web activity such as a Forum in a manner which makes the sock puppet character appear to be distinct from and not associated with the puppet master while giving support to the puppet master's views and opinions.

No one can be in any doubt that Another_Lurker and Brian ONC are one and the same. Not only do they each refer to the other as my alter ego, but they both have the same personal picture, the file identity of which indicates that they both log in using the same username and password. Further, they seldom if ever support one another's views and opinions, quite the contrary in fact! happy.gif

For the record, Brian of Nottinghamshire Community (Brian ONC for short) is the name imposed conferred on me by The Management of this estimable Forum when I was graciously granted the status of Honorary Life Member. They clearly felt (and who could blame them) that 'Another_Lurker' was inappropriate to stand alongside the dignified and eminent names already gracing the roll of Honorary Life Members. My name isn't Brian, but as various Brians had given this Forum sterling service in the past I was pleased and proud to accept the alternative appellation on their behalf and as a tribute to them.

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

December 29 2013, 12:10 PM 

Hello Mommabear2

Good to see you back, even if the news you relate is horrendous. Such teachers and principals appear to be totally unsuited to their jobs.

The report here is slightly more positive, at least in that she is finding the environment at high school a little better.

Two names that I will never forget are the two boys who committed suicide when I was at high school. I have no idea of their reasons, but the boy in my year could have been characterised as artistic. In a boys high school in the 1960s, just showing an interest in artistic subjects was enough to invite persecution by some.


 
 
Jenny

Re: update story: destin holmes bullying.

December 29 2013, 1:14 PM 

Hi mommabear2

Honest question for anybody reading this, would you really trust these "adults" to use any type of physical punishment on your kids? Everybody should know my answer but will answer indirectly in my own way. I would not trust those clowns to watch my dog.

I'm in complete agreement with you on this matter. I wouldn't trust those creatures anywhere near any other life form - except others of their own kind. LGBT individuals are human beings and are entitled to be treated as such.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: school corporal punishment in the news.

January 15 2014, 10:53 PM 


 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

January 23 2014, 11:15 PM 


 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

January 23 2014, 11:24 PM 


 
 
Jenny

Re: School News.

January 24 2014, 12:30 AM 

Hi mommabear2

This is a interesting read.

Very interesting.

From the report -

PROF Madya Datuk Dr Mohd Ali Hassan, "All parties will sit together and find out the cause (that led to the corporal punishment) when there are accusations made by a student (of excessive punishment).

They should not need to wait for a complaint. It's quite clear that all CP in those schools is excessive. As "Corporal punishment isnt allowed for female students..." its use exceeds what is considered necessary for the purpose of maintaining discipline.

Wan Asri Wan Jusoh, 42, a disciplinary teacher at the Bukit Jawa Secondary School, Kelantan, said students today tend to display more aggressive behaviour and are like spoiled brats if compared to students in the olden days.

I wonder what proportion of the "spoiled brats" are female. wink.gif



 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

January 24 2014, 12:32 AM 

Hello Jenny

I had a feeling you would find that part most interesting wink.gif

 
 
KK

Rules and pampering do not work

January 25 2014, 11:24 PM 

An Auckland school is experimenting with abandoning playground rules with interesting results. See here

I have long been puzzled by the reported level of bullying and injuries in schools and wondered whether the definition had been extended to include everything. There was very little in my day but also very little concern about "safety".

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

January 27 2014, 11:17 AM 

Hi KK

Thanks for drawing the Auckland school story to our attention. Hopefully it can gain wider publicity. The "loose parts pit" sounds excellent. The idea of "no playground rules" would make Wilfred Ing and his ilk turn in their graves.

According to this 2008 report Bullrush or British Bulldog is making a comeback in Britain. One commenter suggests this encapsulates the problem: Health and Safety professionals have never tried to ban any form of playground activity. The insurers are to blame along with lawyers and greedy parents. This is a litigation issue and should not be blamed on health and safety professionals who work tirelessly to prevent serious accidents through sensible risk management. .... safetypractitioner, London, UK

Hopefully the trend in recent decades of building pathetic playgrounds might be changing. I was recently in Darling Harbour, Sydney, and was impressed and surprised by the new playground. See http://www.darlingquarter.com/play/ . The Octanet is over 30 feet high - it was packed and there were two 9-10 year olds (a boy and a girl) at the top. It also has a flying fox. The playground also won a Kidsafe NSW award.

 
 

mommbear2

Religion in school

January 28 2014, 1:34 AM 


 
 

mommabear2

Religion in school

January 30 2014, 4:36 AM 

Hello Prof.n

I think what is inspiring these politicians to get prayer back in school is mostly fear about all the Millennials leaving the churches and becoming spiritual. I remember reading not to long ago that almost a third of the under 30 crowd had no religious religious affiliation at all. I guess the next logical question is will this some how make teenager more likely to stay in the church when they become adults? I doubt it

Very impressed with the 10 year kid as well, seems like a very smart kid

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

January 31 2014, 12:56 PM 

Not sure if it belongs on this thread or not, but it is funny so at the end of the day who really care? I hate to go from something funny to depressing but this story is just........ something.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/24562936/2014/01/28/

You would think after one death the school would change policies, or close down

Done edit to reduce width Carl


    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:53 PM


 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 1 2014, 4:29 AM 


 
 
KK

Same old same old

February 1 2014, 6:55 AM 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_School_for_Boys

The Florida School for Boys, also known as the Arthur G. Dozier School for Boys, was a reform school operated by the state of Florida in the panhandle town of Marianna from January 1, 1900, to June 30, 2011. For a time, it was the largest juvenile reform institution in the United States. A second campus was opened in the town of Okeechobee in 1955. Throughout its 111-year history, the school gained a reputation for abuse, beatings, rapes, torture, and even murder of students by staff. Despite periodic investigations, changes of leadership, and promises to improve, the allegations of cruelty and abuse continued. Many of the allegations were confirmed by separate investigations by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in 2010 and the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice in 2011.[4] State authorities closed the school permanently in June 2011.


What happened at the Dozier School for Boys is appalling but is in no way unique. Similar happened elsewhere in the USA and the world and it continues today in some parts of the world. The children of the abused and neglected, in turn, produce abused and neglected children. Naturally, they get involved in crime. Sometimes, this crime affects people like us and we demand punitive action. We are less bothered when the criminal class prey on each other.

From time to time people with very good intentions set up homes and schools for the neglected children. Generally, they are inadequately funded and soon overwhelmed by numbers. Good staff burn out and leave. In time, only less adequate staff are left to cope with very difficult children and the slide into the abyss begins. We like to blame the staff rather than our neglect.


 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

February 2 2014, 5:01 PM 

Those boys in that Florida school were no strangers to corporal punishment in 1958..

H.B. Mitchell, assistant superintendent, commented: "If I spanked all the boys who asked for a spanking, I'd be spanking boys all day Saturday."

CLICK

CLICK


 
 

mommabear2

UPDATE

February 5 2014, 12:35 AM 

I reported a story about a teacher who beat a 5 year old in the state of Florida.

http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/Former-Teacher-Avoids-Trial-in-Student-Paddling-Case-243426601.html

Looks like he got a hell of a deal, but at least some kind of action was taken against this teacher.

 
 
KK

Re: School News.

February 10 2014, 5:41 AM 

It is likely that a critical point has already been passed and runaway global warming is underway. Humans have undoubtedly contributed to the warming but it matters not at all whether the human contribution is large or small. It is the oceans rather than the atmospheric temperature that matters.

"Warming" is a misleading word as the consequences are far more severe than a mild warming. Weather extremes will be increasing more common and more extreme. In any event, the demand for resources is going to lead to their rapid depletion, chaos and war. Being paddled at school is trivial compared to the suffering ahead. Those who can work in disciplined teams, and put up with danger and discomfort for the good of the team, will do best. Children need to be prepared for the ruined world we are leaving them.

While I am ranting I might as well rave about the folly of pursuing happiness if you want to be happy.

 
 

mommabearof2

more religious indoctrination

February 11 2014, 10:04 PM 



    
This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 12, 2014 3:52 PM


 
 
hcj

Re: School News.

February 11 2014, 10:47 PM 

mommabear2, whatever your personal views about religious faith, the heading of your post and its contents may offend some readers.

I do not believe this is a topic appropriate to this forum.

 
 

mommabearof2

Re: School News.

February 12 2014, 12:10 AM 

Hello hcj

I understand your point of view and admit you could be right about this subject not being appropriate for this message board. At the end of the day I have to be me so will continue to post stories that I find interesting or wrong.

 
 
hcj

Re: School News.

February 12 2014, 10:20 AM 

mommabear2 wrote: At the end of the day I have to be me so will continue to post stories that I find interesting or wrong.

Some might consider that a very selfish attitude. For a community to be successful, surely everyone should be sensitive to the feelings and views of others?

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

February 12 2014, 1:01 PM 

I think it would be sad if the forum was sidetracked on the issue of religion, a subject on which most of us have long since formed our opinions.

However Mommabear is fully entitled to draw our attention to news items such as this, although perhaps it could have had a less provocative heading. It is almost always amusing (and frightening) when politicians speak on educational matters.

 
 
AlanTuring

Too wide

February 12 2014, 2:03 PM 

An unfortunate consequence of the link posted by mommabearof2 (or, perhaps, mommabear2) at February 5 2014, 12:38 am, is that this thread has become rather wide, and hence will be difficult to read for those people without very wide display settings on their screens.

I wonder if the Forum Management would be kind enough to edit that post?

I would recommend this post from Another_Lurker in the Computing Corner thread, as it gives advice about how to use a small display for a long link (as I have just done at the beginning of this sentence).

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Too wide

February 12 2014, 3:38 PM 

Hello Alan Turing,

You make an excellent point about Mommabear2's links. I have been noticing them for some time. However I have not commented because I figured that eventually she would post one of the monster ones in the TWP thread. Renee is highly averse to having the width of her threads busted and I thought we might get a female contributor summoned to the cyberspace conference room for the first time. After all Mommabear2 has speculated elsewhere in the Forum about getting herself paddled and I thought I might be doing her a service by allowing her to avoid the hazards of all that fast food first! happy.gifwink.gifhappy.gif

Seriously, I haven't said anything before because for some people even simple HTML can be extremely intimidating. You and I are used to dealing with code of various sorts, most people aren't. You will recall that it took American Way, who has I believe studied Physics to a quite high level, some time to get to grips with short links.

I hope that Mommabear2 will try out the short links. I will happily provide any assistance she may need. However, I really don't know what is to be done with this thread. It has in facr been in its present state for some time. The cause of the excess width is not the link you mention on February 5 2014 @ 12:38 am, as that one will wrap. The culprit is a much earlier link, the last link in Mommabear2's May 9 2013, 11:35 PM contribution, the second element of which will not wrap.

However, even if that one is corrected there are others which may still cause the 'Reply' column to be rather wide, even if not as wide as at present. I haven't tested them all to see which will wrap, and really I'd prefer to avoid having to do so. If The Management Team are willing to edit and see what happens, the link to go for is the last one in the May 9 2013, 11:35 PM contribution, but The Management Team may not wish to get into HTML either, and who could blame them! The only other alternative would be to delete the offending link altogether, and that may not be an acceptable expedient.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Too Wide, and replacements for those links.

February 12 2014, 11:43 PM 

My congratulations to Carl of The Management Team, who has done a magnificent job of identifying and editing ALL the links which were causing the 'Reply' column of this thread to be too wide.

This would have been a complex and time consuming job at best, and even more so if each link had been hand crafted individually. It follows that some links have therefore had to be deactivated to get the job done.

I believe that properly regulated and controlled School Corporal Punishment has a place in the toolbox of sanctions which should be available to teachers for some age groups of pupils in some schools. I therefore find myself in opposition to the overall message propounded by Mommabear2. However I accept that her views are sincerely held, and for the most part she has put them forward here in a very moderate and sensible fashion. As a token of my respect for her I shall therefore replace the links which had to be deactivated here. I realise this is not a perfect arrangement, but just as with the administration of SCP and just about everything else in life perfection is a dream not a reality.

Six links had to be edited. Of those six one was already dead, returning a 404 code, and one was able to be saved during the edit and still works. The other four are as follows:

From Mommabear's May 9 2013, 11:35 PM contribution:

PURULIA: A standard five boy of Purulia who was beaten in class by his teacher for not being able to reply, fell ill after returning home and has died.


The 12-year-old, who was a student of Banga Manna High School of Bandwan, 90 km from here, was punished by his teacher on Thursday, police said quoting the FIR filed by his family today.

He fell ill after he returned home and was rushed to Bandwan block hospital. He was referred to Tata Main Hospital in Jamshedpur on Monday and died in that hospital yesterday.
See this link.

The use of corporal punishment in Japanese schools was called into question recently following the suicide of a pupil who had reportedly received physical punishment from a basketball teacher.

Board of Education officials announced last year that an unnamed 17-year-old pupil at Sakuranomiya high school had taken his own life following the incident.

His mother found a suicide note in which the boy had hinted that he couldn't handle the shame of being physically punished by his basketball coach.

The teacher was subsequently questioned by school officials and he admitted slapping the boy in the face reportedly to toughen him up.

Osaka City Board of Education has released the final report on the suicide. It concluded that pupils and parents did not protest against corporal punishment, which is banned in Japanese schools, because Sakuranomiya high has a reputation for its sports club activities.
See this link.

From Mommabear2's January 31 2014, 12:56 PM contribution:

You would think after one death the school would change policies, or close down. See this link.

Another_Lurker Note: The above case refers to the notorious 'White House' Industrial School for Boys at Marianna, Florida. See Bob T's thread on the subject here.

At that school the implement used for administering corporal punishment was a 'paddle' consisting of a 4 inch long circular handle to which were attached two 24 inch long by 2+ inches wide by ¼th inch thick strips of leather overlaid and with a 1/16th inch thick strip of sheet metal sandwiched between them. This fearsome device had two rows of 1/8th inch diameter holes in the outer half of the blade. I noted in Bob T's thread that reading the full account almost made me cry, and I was serious. But though the place was called a school, in reality it was a penal institution, and nobody should quote what happened there to condemn school CP. It was judicial disciplinary CP, and brutal inhuman judicial disciplinary CP at that.

From Mommabear's February 11 2014, 10:04 PM contribution under the heading 'more religious indoctrination':

See this link.

I find myself in full agreement with hcj's comment above as regards the appropriateness of this item here, but I also note the comment by Oliver Sydney.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 13 2014, 1:20 AM 

Hello hcj

Agree that some one should not go out of there way to be offensive but the truth of the matter is some one is always offended by something. Some people might be offended by the music I listen to, or the food I eat, or the books that I read, or even a message board that talks about using corporal punishment on children.

To me the idea of a government with many different cultures and backgrounds using tax payers money to sponsor religion is offensive and that is why I choose talk about this story.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 13 2014, 1:21 AM 

Sorry did not read everybody else responses yet. Will look at them later and might respond

 
 
Alan Turing

School news?

February 13 2014, 7:51 AM 

To me the idea of a government with many different cultures and backgrounds using tax payers money to sponsor religion is offensive and that is why I choose talk about this story.
But what on earth does that have to do with School Corporal Punishment? It would be far more appropriate to find (or, indeed, create) a forum about the misuse of taxpayer's money, and talk about it there. It really isn't appropriate here.

(Yes, I know that the title of the thread is "School News". But it's in the SCP Forum, isn't it?)

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 15 2014, 7:02 PM 

Hello Alan Turing

I have no problem with your criticism but just don't single me out as the only one who brings up other topic relating to scp.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 15 2014, 7:08 PM 

[urlhttp://ask.com] testing [/url] feel free to delete this post if you want mods.


 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 15 2014, 7:14 PM 

[url]http://ask.com] testing [/url]

 
 

mommabear2

McDowell County NC

February 16 2014, 4:08 AM 


 
 
KK

Re: Good News

February 16 2014, 6:26 AM 

Corporal punishment numbers drop dramatically in McDowell County Schools (North Carolina)


If you accept that school corporal punishment (SCP) is not be the worst evil in the world then a marked fall in SCP may or may not be good news depending upon what else is happening.

If the fall has been caused by parents taking more interest in their children and their education, or changes to the curriculum and teaching methods to improve children's interest and engagement at school, or extra resources are being provided, then the fall in SCP is good news.

However, if the decline is merely because the school is excluding troubled and troublesome children, or is tolerating their disruptive behaviour thus hindering others from learning, or diverting resources from the well behaved to the badly behaved, then the decline might be bad news.

Insufficient information is to hand to decide.

When I was in school most students supported the use of CP as a necessary and cost efficient way of curbing the behaviour of the few who disrupted class, bullied, or otherwise made our lives more difficult.

 
 
American Way

Good News?

February 16 2014, 2:51 PM 

mommabear2 it is a case of an ongoing decline. North Carolina may very well be the next state to ban it.

Earlier this month, a report to the North Carolina State Board of Education showed the number of corporal punishment cases fell from 891 during the 2010-2011 school year to 404 statewide during the 2011-2012 academic year.

CLICK

Penny Britt is Doctor Britt to you. wink.gif She is principal of Long Branch Elementary School. Anthony Britt is now assistant principal at South Robeson High.

CLICK

CLICK

Anthony Britt is now assistant at South Robeson High School where paddling is not occurring.

Paddling has not been occurring in both of their schools since 2009. They can only reminisce about the "good old days" as veteran paddlers.

CLICK

This may be the R U paddle she may be referring. The exact provenance of that paddle would be interesting.

CLICK

I would be the last to make a connection with violence and paddling considering our inner cities but nonetheless violence is violence.

CLICK

mommabear2. There was hesitancy on Renee's part to join Paula Flowe as one of the few Americans who have reached the pinnacle of positions as Honorary Life Time Members. You're not for sale. Stay as a dissident and keep posting and who knows?

CLICK

I may put you among the Courage to Submit Honorees. Stranger things have happened.

Ho Chi Minh City. McPork burgers? What's next? Heart Attack Grill?

CLICK

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 16 2014, 7:01 PM 

I can think of a many things that are worse than a teacher being allowed to hit students with wooden objects. Just because you can think of something worse does not make the original act any more acceptable.


Hello American Way

Always interesting information as usual. I have a feeling if Paula Flowe and Renee ever met all of us would want to buy front row tickets to see how they would interact with each other.

 
 
American Way

Fight of the Century

February 16 2014, 10:30 PM 

Long time habitués of the estimable Forum await periodic updates from the Fight of the Century.

CLICK

prof n has changed position, if you don't count the brace position, more often than the two warriors.

Paula cozying up with referee prof n. mommabear2 you would make a great judge.

CLICK

 
 

Another_Lurker

Identity Crisis

February 16 2014, 10:59 PM 

My greatly esteemed fellow contributor American Way has a very droll sense of humour!

For the benefit of those readers who do not follow these matters closely I must point out that in American Way's second link above the person to whom our Honorary Life Member Paula 'Bathing Suit Areas Community' Flowe, Executive Director 'The Hitting Stops Here!' is 'cozying up' is not our Honorary Life Member prof.n but Jordan Riak, Executive Director 'Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education'.

I hope that Paula and Jordan will be very happy. They certainly deserve each other!

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

February 18 2014, 10:51 PM 


 
 
HH

Re: School News.

February 19 2014, 2:09 AM 

Hi mommabear and thanks for your continued and unrelented public service! happy.gif

I thought one thing extremely odd in the article - the comment about about how "time-outs" are more effective. I'd love to read that reserach. The reason is that all punishments classified as "Confinements or restriction of movement" (and these include the spectrum of: time-outs, confined to a room, sent to bed, groundings, In-school suspension (ISS), Detention, Incarceration and imprisonment) are all to varying degrees considered psychological punishments. Who in their right "progressive" mind would denounce any method and in the same breath advocate a psychological torment on a child, especially a young one? It's a strange world we live in wink.gif  


 
 
KK

Re: One step forward, one step back

February 19 2014, 3:07 AM 

Nothing has changed. It is just a Bill - a proposed law that needs majority approval to become law. Even then, it does not compel anyone to spank if they do not wish to.


Gail Finney (born August 16, 1959) is an African American Democratic member of the Kansas House of Representatives, representing the 84th house district. She has served since 2009.

On her website, Finney lists her legislative priorities as:

    Ensuring a quality education for all Kansas children,

    Bringing the cost of health care and prescription drugs down,

    Working with all levels of government and the private sector to grow our economy and expand our job base.

 
 
HH

Re: School News.

February 19 2014, 3:38 AM 

Hi KK, I'm rather confused... as I often am wink.gif

I thought there were shield laws, so who needs a law that confirms there may be bruising or reddening? Isn't it redundant or what am I missing?

Has anyone ever delivered one fervent smack to the seat and not produced reddening?

...and what's with the 10 smack rule??? I mean really ... 2 smacks from a certain person could be like 20 from another. And does someone believe 10 equal smacks to a 5-yo is appropriately equal to the same 10 smacks to a 12 yo, even delivered by the same person and intensity as an equivalent-gradient punishment? This is all very strange to me.

Bottom line: I think chances are slim on passage .. . the poll on mb's article showes 75% are against allowing spanking in school (at the time I looked at it) so it's a likely dead on starting line. It just makes for some sensational news when there's nothing else "worth" reporting, and allows for some further mythology to be practiced wink.gif


 
 
KK

Re: School News.

February 19 2014, 7:06 AM 

HH,

I am pleased that you are confused as this indicates that you understand the situation. In the USA many of the laws, in many places, have been made by well meaning amateurs. This is really good for the lawyers. Trying to sort things out keeps them wealthy.

 
 
Jenny

Re: School News.

February 19 2014, 5:03 PM 

Hi KK

When I was in school most students supported the use of CP as a necessary and cost efficient way of curbing the behaviour of the few who disrupted class, bullied, or otherwise made our lives more difficult.

That's not really surprising when you remember approximately half the students were totally exempt from it no mater what they did. As similar poll of students who were severely beaten for the slightest transgression or not doing well in a test (as some have reported here) would most likely produce very different results.


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

February 24 2014, 11:44 AM 

This one from Northwest Preparatory Academy Charter School in Houston, Texas last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD2awi6uey8

CP now prohibited, though I can't tell whether this happened before or after. The range of potential offences is breathtaking.
http://www.nwpreparatory.com/filestore/NPA_DisciplineMgtPlan120612.pdf

 
 


Re: School News.

February 27 2014, 8:44 PM 

I think what this story is talking about a law that requires school districts that use scp to have a public hearing about the practise every 3 or 4 years. Found this quote most interesting.

*Wyrosdick said it was utmost importance he protect his employees because of incidences within the county. He said more than once an employees administered corporal punishment on a student with the parent present and with signed approval. After following through, the parent filed a charge with Department of Children and Families (DCF). This is alarming, said Wyrosdick. I cant protect my employees. At this point, removing the policy is the best stance and thats my recommendation.*

Story

As I said if they broke the law they deserve whatever they get, after all actions have consequences. can some one please delete my last post. Sorry about that had a crazy couple days

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

February 28 2014, 11:36 AM 

Hi Mommabear2

Thanks for the link. Santa Rosa features inhttp://www.corpun.com/usscr2x.htm

This news item gives some more information:
http://news.gulfbreezenews.com/news/2014-02-13/Front_Page/How_far_is_too_far.html

This statement by an administrator indicates that paddling had been used about 300-450 times in the county over the past 3 years.
Gunter said that he had researched the number of times corporal punishment had been used in Santa Rosa County Schools over the past three years. Out of about 30,000 disciplinary actions over three years, corporal punishment had been used a total of between one percent and one-and-a-half percent. It is certainly not being used every day, he said. He also said he does not have a list of which schools do use it and which do not since it is left up to the administrators each year to make or change policies concerning this issue at their owns schools.

At the meeting the founder of "Floridians against corporal punishment in public school", James McNulty, claimed that "There have been 70-80 beatings at Navarre High in the past year." On https://www.facebook.com/Stoppaddling they published some punishment records showing that most paddlings were for tardiness, skipping class and cell phone violations. 8 of the 11 girls in the lists (including three in year 12) were paddled for the latter.




 
 

Mommabear2

Update

February 28 2014, 11:18 PM 

Hello Oliver Sydney

Thank you updating the story! Found this other interesting story and thought I would share it everybody because it truly raises so many legal questions.

Link

If this story is true I wonder if parents or students can sue if they received cp after June 27 2013. I hope some parents try it and win

 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

March 1 2014, 1:50 AM 

Tri-County Academy Headmaster Mark Johnson

Six Months in the county jail in MS?

CLICK

The most surprising and hilarious mention of that Flora MS school is the position of the quarterback and the cheerleader as examples of no discrimination by social status. I'm not sure it the author of this paper on page 19 used it as an example or it appeared that way in the handbook. No luck finding it in the handbook and probably is the writer's imagination.

The movies have the quarterback and the cheerleader "petting" and bedding not bending over for swats. I'll be returning to this link is very well written and up to date. Interesting it is about the expanding use of the paddle between 2009 to 2012 in high school. The very age that Renee and prof n find not so much to their liking.

CLICK

Obviously the school isn't strict about the boy's hair length.

CLICK

Cheerleaders Varsity Rebels.

CLICK

Rebels in the making are the Rebelttes. happy.gif

CLICK

 
 

Another_Lurker

A little detail can be helpful.

March 1 2014, 3:29 AM 

Hello American Way,

This is not a criticism, far from it, merely a constructive suggestion. It has recently been put to me by an interested party that your most excellent researches in the area of the topic of this estimable Forum would be of even greater value if you were to be a little less cryptic and give rather more indication of what your links are about.

An example might for instance be your second link above, the lengthy PDF file entitled 'The Return of the Paddle'. It would be helpful to those reading the paper to know that it was one of various presentations made to the Shelby, Tennessee, Board of Education at their Business Meeting on Tuesday, 30 July 2013 at which the Board banned the use of corporal punishment in schools under their control by a majority of 13 to 2.

The situation was an interesting one, because SCP had been banned in Memphis City Schools since 2004, and the Memphis City Schools Board had been subsumed into the Shelby County Board on 1 July 2013. This article on the excellent CorPun site has details.

It is interesting to note that assurances were given at the meeting that banning SCP would not prohibit Coaches making athletes run laps as a punishment.

 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

March 3 2014, 7:37 AM 

Oliver Sydney. Here is a follow up on Navarre High School. Prior to your mention of Santa Rosa County the NPR did a major story on Holmes County.

If you have the time Google: "Trends in Discipline and the Decline in the Use of Corporal Punishment, 2011-12" Scroll to Holmes County and Santa Rosa and then to the bottom lines for aggregate state totals.

Navarre High School in Santa Rosa County has 351 students with 42 paddling and 176 ISS and 82 OSS.

Bethlehem High School in Holmes County FL has 510 students with 60 paddling and 19 ISS and 50 OSS.

The state total is remarkable. The gender disparity is 530 girls to 2,436 boys getting paddled. What makes their bottoms so sacrosanct?

Earlier source with dated figures submitted here on several occasions. Look how precipitous the decline.

CLICK

Holmes County has the distinction of being one of the four high schools that still paddle in the sate that paddle 260 students of the total 2,996 students in the state. The Holmes County High Schools (four of them) have a population 1,676 students.

Holmes County High School's Paddle is shown here. I hope Mr Dixon isn't grumpy when he is hunger. He looks like one bear of a man. sad.gif He is now the superintendent.

CLICK

The handbook gives the principal the leeway to corporally punish for second time offenders for the most minor offenses as found on page 23.

CLICK

Navarre High School Running List as recently posted.

The word beaten is a dead indicator of the writer's stridency. Is this information being leaked or gleaned from publicly available sources?

CLICK

CLICK


 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

March 3 2014, 12:52 PM 

Hi American Way

Thank you for the very helpful links. Quite a wealth of information there for the statisticians.

Some good news. The 2011/12 figures show both a reduction in paddling and a substantial decline in suspensions - whilst the latter are still far too high they have declined substantially to less than the 1995/96 level. I would not dare to hope that behaviour has improved but possibly procedures have.

See https://www.fldoe.org/eias/eiaspubs/pubstudent.asp and view "Trends in Discipline and the Decline in the Use of Corporal Punishment, 2011-12" (Word, 1MB).

You are quite right about the boy/girl discrepancy. This is true for every school that gives CP figures. I also note that although 40% of the students are white, they account for 64% of the CP. HOWEVER, most ISDs that allow CP are small towns with mostly white residents. Maybe this helps to explain the former discrepancy or ....

I agree with you that the writer is strident but he makes no secret of that. As I read it the official 2011/12 figures for Navarre High CP are 61 (Boys 47, girls 14), not far below the 70-80 he claims for 2012/13. The ISS are 244 and OSS 109.

The Florida figures also include many academies and charter schools, only a couple of which use CP.

 
 
KK

Re: School News.

March 3 2014, 7:43 PM 

Oliver Sydney wrote (in part, emphasis added):

Some good news. The 2011/12 figures show both a reduction in paddling and a substantial decline in suspensions - whilst the latter are still far too high they have declined substantially to less than the 1995/96 level. I would not dare to hope that behaviour has improved but possibly procedures have.


I urge caution with statistics like these. On the face of it, it seems good news but it may not be. We need to know if the data is accurate and "true", and how and why the decline has occurred.

Has the decline in SCP and suspensions been caused by a decline in misbehaviour and an increase in learning, perhaps because of improved teaching? This would be truly good news and the practices adopted worthy of emulation.

Or, has there been and increased tolerance of tardiness, disruptive behaviour, etc., and a decrease in learning, especially by the well behaved? Are the schools spiralling down into chaos?

Or, perhaps paddling and suspensions have been replaced by other punishments that may be equally or more damaging?

It takes time and considerable effort to change social attitudes and behaviour. Schools can play a part, possibly an important part, but the community, parents and family life have far greater influence on a child. Their character is largely formed early on, before they start school. They then spend only about 1200 hours a year at school or about 1/7th of their life.

I recently hosted, at different times, three delightful children aged between two and a half and three and a half who came with their parents father + mother, both interacting with their offspring. The children had none of the properties often associated with children this age (the terrible twos). It was a little frightening to see what an immense influence I had on the kids. They actively copied me and showed great interest in everything happening about them.

If sufficient pressure is put onto anyone to change something, teachers included, things often change but not always as expected or in desirable ways. This most especially the case when the underlying causes are not addressed and when resources are reallocated rather than increased. The squeaky wheel may get attention at the expense of something more important.

When I tried to make the above points to Mommabear2 I was accused of nasty things. I do hope I will be better treated this time. I am making serious points.

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

March 3 2014, 8:57 PM 

First I was responding to your claim about "school corporal punishment" being the worst evil in the world. Second do not see how my response was a attack on you in any way shape or form.

KK Wrote

*If you accept that school corporal punishment (SCP) is not be the worst evil in the world then a marked fall in SCP may or may not be good news depending upon what else is happening*

My Response to that claim.

*I can think of a many things that are worse than a teacher being allowed to hit students with wooden objects. Just because you can think of something worse does not make the original act any more acceptable.*

Man up a little KK

 
 


Re: School News.

March 3 2014, 9:02 PM 

let me correct myself. I did not see anything in that post that is "nasty" or demeaning to you.

 
 


Re: School News.

March 5 2014, 1:25 AM 

Earlier this year, Rabbi Avraham Pinter, principal of Yesodey Hatorah, admitted sometimes Charedi schools, if they find anything in the paper which could be offensive to parents, advise children to avoid that question.

Soruce

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

March 5 2014, 1:14 PM 

Hi KK

Thanks for your response. I don't disagree with much of what you say. All statistics can and should be questioned. I do however suspect that recent figures are likely to be more reliable than those from past eras.

In one way I would broaden your approach. From my point of view the number of suspensions remains grossly excessive. I would question not just discipline but the whole educational system. Likewise I would strongly question the assumption by some that schools functioned better in past eras.

 
 
Oliver Sydney

Re: School News.

March 5 2014, 1:24 PM 

Hi Mommabear2

From the link you gave:
Last fall, the Yesodey Hatorah Jewish Voluntary Aided girls' secondary school in England an ultra-orthodox school that encourages young women to become mothers instead of attending college gave students an unusual GCSE science examination: While the questions weren't altered, some of them were redacted....
That put the girls at a disadvantage since they couldn't see, and therefore couldn't answer, those questions.
What was it about those questions that made school officials black them out?


This is rather amazing. I do not know much about the English GCSE, but I would have thought that if school officials could modify the exam papers that easily others could just as easily pre-fill answers for selected students. It seems rather extraordinary that such would be allowed for a public examination.

 
 
KK

Re: School News.

March 5 2014, 10:57 PM 

Oliver Sydney,

Thanks for your courteous reply and willingness to discuss the issues rather than to abuse.

We agree in large measure. Suspensions, exclusions and expulsions, or whatever euphemism is used, are potentially very damaging. They often amount to little more than giving up and dumping kids with the trash.

Whenever any new measure is introduced, in any field, it is natural for those who advocated or implemented the change to put the best possible spin on the outcome. The positives of the change tend to be emphasized and the negatives overlooked or down played.

News reports are often misleading and most especially when inexperienced / non-specialist reporters are involved. We tend to take most notice of reports that support our preconceptions and least notice of reports that contradict our views.

Changing attitudes and practices takes time. I am suspicious of reported sudden successes. It takes time for things to settle and for a true evaluation to be made when changes have been made.

None of the above means there is never good news or that no progress is or can be made.

 
 
jd 19

Re: School News.

March 6 2014, 12:01 AM 

Hallo Oliver Sydney

Likewise I would strongly question the assumption by some that schools functioned better in past eras.

Ah but we do like to wear our rose coloured spectacles do we not happy.gif

It all starts with the opticans telling us we need glasses for reading because we have reached a `certain age.` Next thing you know they are handing you a pair with nice rosy lenses because you have reached that certain age when one wants to reflect on the good ole days. Much easier to see the past through that rosy glow happy.gif

It seems the `cetain age` starts bit younger nowdays (didn`t allow that in MY day we knew our place! I had to wait to get my RCS they didn`t just had them out willy nilly) I have a 26yr old bemoaning her young employees come out of school without a clue, no discipline installed, don`t want to folow rules. Not like in her day, oh no it was all about discipline and rules when she was at school. Really darlng are you quite sure!! I think maybe you are suffering from the same amnesia I suffer about my schooldays and your grandparents and their parents and their...... must run in the family happy.gif

This is rather amazing. I do not know much about the English GCSE, but I would have thought that if school officials could modify the exam papers that easily others could just as easily pre-fill answers for selected students. It seems rather extraordinary that such would be allowed for a public examination.

I share your surpise. Tampering with exam papers even just to redact questions hardly seems something an exam board would be willing to allow. Obviously not allowing the girls to see therefore anwer all the questions on the exam paper will not be an advantage which is what seemed to be main concern. I would have thought being disavantged in not being able to attain all possible marks might be cause for concern too!



 
 
KK

Re: School News.

March 11 2014, 12:45 AM 

Source

Updated by the Dedicated Staff of edhat.com

The Lompoc Record reported on March 6, 2014 that a Cabrillo High School student and former wrestler is suing the Lompoc Unified School District for injuries after he allegedly was assaulted by three students, a beating he claims was orchestrated by coaching staff members.

Chad Johnson, Matthew Giles, and Chewy Medrano have been named in the lawsuit as three former wrestling coaches. "According to the complaint, Realpe, who was a member of the school’s wrestling team, arrived at practice Dec. 9 and allegedly was confronted by Johnson regarding the teen’s off-campus fight with another student Dec. 6. The coach contended Realpe had brought embarrassment and shame to the team, the complaint alleges. Johnson allegedly told Realpe that when practice was over he would have to deal with the consequences."

"After wrestling practice, the three coaches accompanied Realpe to the school’s gymnasium where three wrestling team members were waiting. Before the three coaches left, the complaint alleges that Giles turned toward the wrestlers and instructed, 'no facial marks,' then told Realpe he would wait in the parking lot to give him a ride home. The wrestlers allegedly told Realpe he made the school and himself look stupid by fighting and the three students were going to teach him a lesson. They took turns wrestling with Realpe, allegedly hitting him in the face with a closed fist, elbowing him, and repeatedly pounding his face into the wrestling mat, the complaint said."

"Afterward, Realpe had a bloody face, swollen eye and noticeable limp when he walked to Giles’ vehicle in the parking lot. Realpe said the coach looked at him and said, '... so much for no facial marks,' then drove the teen home, according to the complaint. Once home, his mother took him to Community Health Center where he was treated by a doctor."



How embarrassing for a teenage boy to have his mother intervene like this. I would have been mortified if my mum had intervened so.

I wonder what the medical "treatment" amounted to?

 
 
HH

Re: School News.

March 11 2014, 2:49 AM 

Two very interesting stories. On the first one: it's strange they call it "CP" which by various definitions of it, it is patently not. If the allegations are true as reported, then one would expect criminal charges on the coaches to follow. I assume the students, who simply acted as willing "hired" thugs to carry out a premeditated assault, are minors. Likely California's laws are such that youthful assailants can rest in the comfort that no sanctions worth fearing are about to befall them. I hope the school makes them sit quietly in a corner for five minutes to reflect on their actions.

The 2nd story is obviously CP related: I don't think (IMHO) that any criminal law was broken here, as long as the CP meted was within legal parameters allowable to parents. aka, he might argue an in loco parentis application. However, it's clear that State statute (Statewide CP ban) and ISD Policy were contravened, so this looks like ISD sanctions and perhaps some civil remedy.... I'm no expert on US laws, what's anyone else's take on these?

These are timely finds! pls stay tuned, I have something to share from Los Angeles ca.1958... & will have it here shortly.
 (apologies if this is duplicated, the server keeps "timing out")


 
 
HH

Los Angeles CA - a 1958 teacher "Belting"

March 11 2014, 3:12 AM 

No, not the type of belting you strong and resiliant Scotsmen are thinking of happy.gif , but some version of it from LA nonetheless...

<a href="www.newspapers.com/newspage/20789577/"><font color="red"><b>source</b></font></a> of the details below...

Los Angeles - Nine-year- old Billy Willoughby II who asserted he received three black and blue bruises as the result of a spanking by his school principal will tell his story to the city attorney next week. William Willoughby, the boy's grandfather and guardian, asked for a hearing Tuesday, charging his grandson was whipped with a metal-lipped belt by Mrs. Ruth Blanton, 57, principal of a public elementary school. Mrs. Blanton said she spanked Bill on Monday with his own belt, hitting him three or four times. I didn't even notice the belt had a metal tip, she said. Mrs. Blanton said she was punishing Billy and another boy, who also was spanked but didn't suffer bruises, for throwing rocks at the school playground. Billy is a bright boy but not too used to obedience, she said. I spanked each boy and sent a note home with each explaining what had been done. Billy's grandfather said he realized what the boy had done was wrong but we are making an issue of the severity of the punishment and the manner in which it was handled. Los Angeles school board authorities made no comment but under state law a child may be spanked if other punishment has failed and the spanking is mild and does not inflict lasting marks. The boys divorced. His parents are father, William Willoughby Jr., lives in Indianapolis, Ind. and his mother Margaret Moe, lives in Oakland Calif.


LOS ANGELES-- William Willoughby, II, displays black and blue marks which he claims are the result of a spanking which his school principal gave-him, using the boy's own metal tipped belt. -William claims ‘the spanking resulted because he threw a  small rock at another boy on the school playground. The other boy was punished also. The boy's grandfather, William Willoughby, Sr., asked for and was granted a hearing on the matter. This is scheduled for October 8.


Eureka Humboldt Standard 1 October 1958 › Page 5

LOS ANGELES-- Mrs. Ruth Blanton is the elementary school teacher who is accused of spanking 9-year-old student William Willoughby, II, with his own metal- tipped belt. Mrs. Blanton commented: According to my understanding, my action was within the regulations of the Board of Education. Billy is a bright boy but not too readily used to obedience. Student William Willoughby claims he was punished for throwing a rock at another boy on the school playground. William and his grandparents claim the spanking resulted in black and blue marks.

Photos next...


 
 
HH

Los Angeles CA - a 1958 teacher "Belting"

March 11 2014, 3:16 AM 

(Looks like the HTML is working, and the posting is extremely buggy right now, but anyway...)

The teacher

[linked image]

and his little Highness...

[linked image]


 
 
HH

Re: School News.

March 11 2014, 3:33 AM 

I thought this might interest some ecasue it rises several points:

1) Marking (or bruising) appears to have been an issue for some in the LA ISD in 1958 ... seems a little ahead of the curve.

2) This exemplifies the sheer folly of ISD's with a lack of detaile regulation for the application of SCP, and also for the lack of training in applying it. We require people to pass lests and be licensed for far less today, should they not prove some competency in applying SCP?

The teacher used the boy's own belt. While not advisable, but OK. But the belt had a metal tip on it and that's hat he was belted with. Therein lies the crux of the contention me thinks happy.gif IMHO, 98% of people know that a trouser belt is nest used a looped once, where the one applying the CP holds both the bucle and tip, adn the leather "loop" makes the contact. A very worthwhile smack adn a decent red line on the skin but no unintented dmage from metal attachments. I can't imaging a teacher who applied CP in school (and presumably to her own) wouldn't know this. Further, hitting the sides of legs is extremely unadviseable as they are easily marked.

...hich makes me think this was meted in a moment of anger rather than a well thought out and tempered belting... but that's just my thoughts.

3) The bruises. Yes there are some marks there. Reminds me of when I was this age. I usually wore shorts, and many times nothing at all! happy.gif and just from regular and continual "rough and tumble", my legs, for the most part, looked substantially more bruised than this. I am sorry to realise that boy's with a number (like II) behind their name had lived such sheltered lives, even then! Sorry, I don't want to make light of it, but having examiined this, any boy with some modicum of outdoor activity used to look like that on any day. Or is this just me??? 

   


 
 
jd19

Re: School News.

March 11 2014, 4:25 PM 

Hallo HH


I thought this might interest some ecasue it rises several points:

Indeed I for one find it interesting. I am particularly interested in your third point

3) The bruises. Yes there are some marks there. Reminds me of when I was this age. I usually wore shorts, and many times nothing at all! happy.gif and just from regular and continual "rough and tumble", my legs, for the most part, looked substantially more bruised than this. I am sorry to realise that boy's with a number (like II) behind their name had lived such sheltered lives, even then! Sorry, I don't want to make light of it, but having examiined this, any boy with some modicum of outdoor activity used to look like that on any day. Or is this just me???

I am not quite certain what mean you by this third point. Have you come to the conclusion William must have lived a sheltered life? If so what has made you come to that conclusion?

I often find views on articles far more interesting than the article itself. Reading comments made on online news items is fascinating. I find people have picked up on things I hadn`t even read in the article itself, hence my enquiring about your third point concerning about the bruising.





 
 
KK

Photos unreliable

March 11 2014, 8:48 PM 

Photographs are notoriously unreliable for showing the severity of bruising and matching what the unaided eye can see. We cannot tell much about how severe the bruising was.

The images above are based on silver photography. Colours have been rendered as shades of grey on the negative. The shades of grey have been inverted to produce first a print, then an ink image in a magazine, then a digital scan and finally an image on the computer screen. It is very unlikely each of these transitions has been accurate, even assuming there is a fixed relationship between colours and shades of grey. Things would have been improved if a standard colour card had been included in the original scene.


Orthochromatic film - a photographic film sensitive to green and blue and violet light. Often used by press photographers as the film is fast allowing action photos to be taken in less than bright light.

Panchromatic film - sensitive to light of all colours in the visible spectrum. Produces a realistic reproduction of a scene as it appears to the human eye.

Sample colour card.

 
 
HH

Re: School News.

March 12 2014, 2:49 AM 

Hello jd19,

Thanks for asking, "Have you come to the conclusion William must have lived a sheltered life? If so what has made you come to that conclusion?". First, I just want to say that my comments were a little bit "tongue-in-cheek", not fully serious. ... but it's easy to forget that contributors here come from different cultures and may not detect those nuances in my English either! happy.gif

To be clear, if in the year 2014 mindset, you child came home with bruises and upon inquiring, they were the result of some intervention by an educator, I bet the great majority of parents would enquire furtherr as to what has happened. But, in 1958 (remember you cannot transpose today's views back onto that time and place) I think for the vast majority such bruises were commonplace, however they came about. And further, explaining why they came aabout at school often resulted in some additional bruises, but planted in the correct palce where they should have been in the beginning.

Because there is a "II" in his name, this implies some lineage of nobility or peerage. I don't know if that's indeed the case here as some people adopt that naming style having nothing to do with any such history. But if it is true, then it seems natural that those would be the parents most likely to squak that soemthing amiss has happened to the young heir.

My comments stand however, that I was routinely bruised like this or worse at that age and it had nothing do to with being belted, it simply had to do with a lot of outdoor and rough play. Spring is coming ... when it does, my son will also soon be proudly sporting those battle scars from schoolyard antics (at least I hope he will). 

_____________________________________________________

Hi KK, I take your point. However, these are not scans of magazines. I purchased the original press photographs from the press archives. Why? I haven't a clue happy.gif ... just I have regrets for letting interesting items slip away in the past only to later need them and never to have found them again. Thus I figured this may have some use one day depending on where the tides take me next. In the meantime, I figured sharing means caring happy.gif

The photos you see are scans of the original (8 x 10) news photos (downsized for posting here). I upsized the originals to examine this and it doesn't look particularly egregious even when heavily contrasted. So where you say, "Photographs are notoriously unreliablehappy.gif to the extent this is true you may wish to inform some well known anti-CP websites of the same as they love to parade around a host of bruised buttock photos to engender some sympathy!


 
 
jd 19

Re: School News.

March 13 2014, 4:05 AM 

Thank you HH for taking the time to reply.


I think the formatting of this post is going to look a mess! I have prepared it on wordpad because I manage to lose posts, but when I checked what this looks on like on preview I keep getting that darn captcha. Having asked you about your thread it would be rude not to give you my thoughts ( whether you want them or not!!!) So before I give up altogether and slide back off into obscurity I wanted to post this, but do apologise for it looking like I`ve let my cats play with the key board again!


I did not think you were being entirely serious, but as my mothers favorite saying is, well one of them she has a few happy.gif many a true word is said in jest! Thought I would enquire about your meaning.


To be clear, if in the year 2014 mindset, you child came home with bruises
and upon inquiring, they were the result of some intervention by an educator, I
bet the great majority of parents would enquire furtherr as to what has
happened. But, in 1958 (remember you cannot transpose today's views back onto
that time and place) I think for the vast majority such bruises were
commonplace, however they came about. And further, explaining why they came
aabout at school often resulted in some additional bruises, but planted in the
correct palce where they should have been in the beginning.




I believe that in 2014 as in 1958 bruises caused by the everyday rough and tumble of life are still to be seen on children. At least they seem to be around my neck of the woods. Yes I agree if a child came home today sporting bruises caused by a teacher questions most certainly would be asked. 54yrs earlier bruises caused by a teacher may well have been acceptable to the vast majority of parents and children alike. However clearly for some as seen with this newspaper report and similar cases highlighted on this forum (and I think in corpuns archieves) questions were raised. In some cases I`m sure complaints were raised because the parents disliked cp being used on their offspring and would be only to eager to fire off a complaint. Others would genuinely be questioning the severity of the punishment.


Because there is a "II" in his name, this implies some lineage of nobility or
peerage. I don't know if that's indeed the case here as some people adopt that
naming style having nothing to do with any such history. But if it is true, then
it seems natural that those would be the parents most likely to squak that
soemthing amiss has happened to the young heir.



I am umfamilar with putting numbers after a name. I don`t believe this is something the British have ever adopted apart from the royalty of course (rather wish we had, it would make ancestor searching somewhat easier and cheaper methinks happy.gif) I have always thought it was just something Americans did simply because they like to do so, had no idea it was anything to do with peerage. From my own limited aquaintence with English Peers they tend to be rather stiff upper lipped, can not imagine any of the ones I know complaining about much (except the darn peasants walking all over their land of course!) They certainly are not the `squawking` type.


AS you point out we do not know if William was a cherished heir or indeed if he was, if this was the reason for the complaint. All we know from the report you have shared is William`s grandfather was questioning the severity and manner in which the punishment was carried out.


My comments stand however, that I was routinely bruised like this or worse at
that age and it had nothing do to with being belted, it simply had to do with a
lot of outdoor and rough play. Spring is coming ... when it does, my son will
also soon be proudly sporting those battle scars from schoolyard antics (at
least I hope he will).



I would suggest it does not really matter how often young william routinely covered himself with bruises. He may well have suffered far worse from falling out of a tree. It is the context in how they got there that appears to have caused the concern.


My outdoor activities do occassionally cause me injuries, my husband is used to seeing me bruised. Last year he had to collect me from hospital, I had suffered severe bruising and some cuts but thankfully nothing broken. Obvioulsy he was concerned but knows accidents can and do happen. A few months later I was once again sporting a bruise, this time a minor one. My husaband`s reaction to this bruise was very, very different to those I had substained earlier. It was not the sight of the bruise itself that caused his rage it was how it got there. He knows I can take a bruise or two he also knows I can take care of myself, neither of those two facts was relevent to him neither did they help cool his anger!



It is possible William`s grandfather felt the same as my husband, it mattered not that his Grandson had substained worse bruising in the everyday wear and tear of life. It only mattered how those particular bruises got there. It also mattered not that scp was perfectly acceptable at that time, nor that complaints were rarely made. It only mattered to William`s Grandfather that he felt the punishmet was unduly severe and handled incorrectly.


Of course we may believe William`s grandfather (like my husband) was over reacting but I see nothing to suggest William was a protected flower who could not bear to have bruises for whatever reason. That his grandfather questioned the punishment does not lead me to believe William never came home covered in everyday bruises.


You say in reply to KKs suggestion that `photographs are notoriously unreliable`


to the extent this is true you may wish
to inform some well known anti-CP websites of the same as they love to parade
around a host of bruised buttock photos to engender some sympathy!




Yes I have seen such sympathy gaining pictures. While they make me cringe with their blatent effort to gain sympathy, so do some of the `pah call that bruising I did worse just from falling over` remarks from the pro-cp`ers. As above it does not matter what injuries have been suffered, how many bruises an indivdual can count on a good day. To a person who disagrees with corporal punishment someone claiming they get worse bruising playing a sport is neither here or there, it is only relevent that those bruises were caused by someone striking child.


 
 
KK

A real bruise

March 13 2014, 8:21 AM 

[linked image]

This is bruise on my own body (on a fleshy part that I would prefer not to mention). It was inflicted during a cyclist versus asphalt road collision very soon after a car versus cyclist incident. The road was not damaged, unlike car and cyclist.

I have preserved the colours best I can. How they appear to your eye on screen may or may not be close to reality. The scale bar is approximate. The bruises extend far beyond what is shown and are quite unsuitable for family viewing. I did not show them to my mum.

 
 
HH

Re: School News.

March 13 2014, 3:40 PM 

Hi jd19, and that's an excellent post you made! I think you found the essence of this complaint. Here are the obvious questions and apparent answers:

1) Was the complaint made because the grandfather was opposed to CP being used? There is some evidence of this where the principal herself says, "Billy is a bright boy but not too used to obedience" But he can't go anywhere with being opposed to SCP in 1958 because it was allowable, and unfortunately at the time, there were no opt-outs either AFAIK so if your child misbehaved at school, there was a real expectation that they might be CP'd.

2) You made an excellent comment here "to a person who disagrees with corporal punishment someone claiming they get worse bruising playing a sport is neither here or there, it is only relevent that those bruises were caused by someone striking child." Yes that's absolutely right. However, at that time SCP was to be expected ,and since the Board had no (apparent) guidelines on administering it, then adhoc SCP would also carry some expectation of marking. That's what happened here and again, the principal states it is within regulations of the Board, so grandfather might have a tough time arguing on this basis.

I don't want to make too much of the degee of bruising itself and it's all subjective ... it just appears to me to be within "the norm" of what might have been inflicted in 1958. This is why I say there must be some ulterior reason for the complaint, becuase to me anyway, it didn't look egregiously beyond the pale of what might have been expected at that place and time. That's all I'm saying. I'm neither diminishing the effect nor defending it, I'm simply putting it into context.

3) So the crux of the matter is, as you opined that he "was questioning the severity and manner in which the punishment was carried out" and "It also mattered not that scp was perfectly acceptable at that time, nor that complaints were rarely made. It only mattered to William`s Grandfather that he felt the punishment was unduly severe and handled incorrectly." This I believe must be it and I agree totally with you in this thinking. As I said above, this seemed more like an in-situ thrashing, a "heat of the moment" reaction, and the evidence for this is : using the boy's own (metal tipped) belt, using it incorrectly as a belt should normally be used, and using it on the sides of the legs. This all speaks to the "severity and manner" of how SCP was applied. This, I think, is the real contention.

It raises a valuable observation because it once again illustrates the kinds of problems that arise where there was no strictly defined guidelines of practice and procedure and where adhoc implements and adhoc methods were allowed.


 
 
HH

Throwing Stones

March 13 2014, 4:15 PM 

As an aside, the whole incident came about because Billy and another boy were "throwing rocks"

You might be interested to know, that stone throwing (and sometimes injuring other children and/or damaging property as a result) was viewed as a reasonably serious offence, and it was typically punishable with CP where SCP was used. I'm working on an ongoing project, and thus far have made it through the CP records of 8 schools/insitutions.

So how prevalent was stone throwing? Thus far ... of 2,711 pupils CP'd in 6,542 incidents, there were 162 punishments meted for throwing stones. That's about 2.5% of incidents so roughly every one in 40 CP was meted for stone throwing. Of the 155 unique individuals CP'd, 10 reoffended by throwing stones again, or 6% recidivism in stone throwing punished by CP. I suspect, regardless of the outcome of this complaint (I have been unable to find it), there is a 94% likelyhood that Billy did not throw stones at school again thus averting a repeat complaint. For what it's worth happy.gif

         


 
 
HH

Re: School News.

March 13 2014, 10:14 PM 

Hi KK, now that one is a very serious bruise! It certainly evidences that neither asphalt nor vehicles make for appropriate CP implements. I have a question if you remember the answer please. How long after the incident did it take for all the discolouration to completely disappear? I bruise very easily, just recently impacting my hip against a kitchen counter left an approx 15cm X 5 xm purple welt lasting 2 weeks.

BTW, thank you for your restaint in showing the entire damage (I think one can surmize where this likely is)... as this certainly is a family forum wink.gif 


 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

March 16 2014, 8:02 PM 

What I wouldn't give to take that cane to that female newscaster? Maybe a picture of her blistered bottom in the morning newspaper would cure of such callousness wouldn't seem so funny. They guy is no better but that is beside the point.

CLICK

Get that smile off your face you brute. sad.gif

CLICK

Images.

CLICK

CLICK

CLICK

A case that caught the news in November.

CLICK

CLICK

 
 

mommabear2

religious indoctrination

March 16 2014, 9:39 PM 

I checked it out the Sabine Parish School District in Louisiana does indeed allow paddling. As for the story itself it is just disheartening

just Amazing

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: School News.

March 17 2014, 1:25 AM 

Hello American Way,

The first video linked in your March 16 2014, 8:02 PM contribution above certainly seems to be dealing with quite a severe beating, 9 whacks I think, though it is difficult to be certain because of the occasional interruptions and pauses in the looping video on the TV report. But surely your thirst for revenge would be better directed against the female teacher administering the punishment rather than against the female newsreader. This latter approach seems a text-book example of the flawed principle of shooting the messenger!

Most of those who've commented on the video on YouTube seem to agree that the beating was severe and isn't supposed to be happening anyway. However not all of them are sympathetic, and one person makes the point that children do not always listen to verbal rebukes and while the teacher's rod is a painful reminder of mistakes for schoolchildren it isn't as severe as the penalties if they are still making mistakes later in life. I suspect that people who've spent time in any of the notoriously unpleasant Thai prisons would echo that sentiment.

 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

March 18 2014, 6:40 AM 

Another follow up. March 3, 2014 posting at 7:37 am

CLICK

The Santa Rosa County School district is getting rid of corporal punishment has been in the books for years.

CLICK

 
 

mommabear2

Re: School News.

March 18 2014, 11:36 PM 

Education experts on Thursday unveiled a trove of research suggesting that schools should stop doling out harsh discipline that pushes kids away from school often for minor infractions.

The new research — the product of years of work — follows the unveiling earlier this year of two Obama administration initiatives that also address concerns about zero-tolerance school punishment and the future of young black and Latino males, in particular.

Removing millions of kids from school on suspension leaves them further behind academically, warn researchers. They recommend that educators consider alternative intervention ideas that schools around the country have embraced with success.

interesting news.

 
 
KK

Re: School News.

March 19 2014, 8:40 AM 

Mommabear2 and others,

I would appreciate your views on:

1. The relative importance of parents versus teachers in affecting a child's behaviour.

2. Who should pay if a child with behaviour problems needs extra care at school?

 
 
American Way

Re: School News.

March 19 2014, 11:03 AM 

KK One of the proposals of payment appeared sometime ago here. My apologies if it is old hat. Unfortunately, from what I can gather it went nowhere.

Nutley Schools Wants Fines For Parents Whose Children Are Habitually In Trouble; If Not, Community Service Next Option

CLICK

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: School News.

April 5 2014, 2:00 PM 

With Mommabear2 apparently unavoidably absent, and American Way away tramping the Adirondacks or some such excuse for neglecting his duties here happy.gif I feel it incumbent upon me to maintain the great tradition that is ours through ....... er, well, this thread actually.

Here is a report from earlier this year relating to the SJK (C) Khai Meng School, a Chinese Language Primary school in Sungkai, Perak, Malaysia.

It does actually include some CP (strokes of the rotan, as caning is termed in Malaysia) so unusually for me wink.gif it is completely on-topic! However the novel feature is offending pupils forced to wear bells around their necks, referred to as 'cows' and, allegedly, the subject of attempts to force-feed them with grass.

One would have thought that if the unfortunate boys involved had already had 10 strokes of the rotan (my basis for presuming that this was the initial punishment is reference to 'a further 10 strokes') they had already been more than adequately punished for not handing in their homework. Not so apparently, at least in the opinion of the male teacher of English involved.

It would be interesting to know what caused the teacher to require the boys to play the part of cows. Possibly he has a cow fetish, or maybe the homework that was not handed in had something to do with cows. Unfortunately the report does not indicate this. We earnest seekers after the truth are constantly frustrated and annoyed by the Media's lack of attention to such vital aspects of incidents. sad.gif

Possibly the boys were of Indian extraction, given the reference to 'learning a different language' as a reason for sending one of the boys to the Chinese Language School, and the politician's statement that 'Teachers must be careful when carrying out punishment, especially in this multi-cultural society'. If they were Indian, depending on their religion, the 'cow' punishment might be very offensive indeed.

Various contributors have indicated that in Malaysia the Chinese Language Schools are stricter than the Indian and Malay Language Schools. Once regular but now sadly absent for some time contributor Saro does so in her post here. In particular the Chinese Language Schools seem often to have ignored the law against caning girls in school.

On a lighter note, and it wouldn't be Another_Lurker without a lighter note, now would it, those versed in targeted Googling will readily discover the several references here to the vital function of cycle shorts in Malaysia for girls so caned, and how some cruel headmistresses would require their removal prior to punishment. But that's another story! happy.gif

 
 
Current Topic - School News.  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Find more forums on SchoolsCreate your own forum at Network54
 Copyright © 1999-2014 Network54. All rights reserved.   Terms of Use   Privacy Statement