Hi all

I don't know why I keep doing this to myself....

Was offered R210,000 trade-in on 2002 A6 3.0 Multitronic with 63,000km yesterday - already shocking.

Dealer phoned this morning - the new trade book reached them, and thet 'have' to revise their offer down to R188,000.

But wait, come January next year, and it's goodbye to another R33,000.

Anybody still think Audi SA is doing their part to make sure this brand retains at least some secondhand value ? I sure don't.

Well, now I almost feal better after having vented. Have a great weekend.

Cheerio
Chris

Boy less than R200k for a 3l. Multitronic I would buy it man......I recon the fact that the new A6 is here doesn't help your situation. I hope with the new (uglier A4) Audi would pay a premium on me trading my 1.8T Multitronic next year or maybe I will be in the same boat as you. Audi's were known for good resale value no more that is I feel and recent figures are there to prove it.

Chris

Do you think it is appropriate for me to pose the question on this (an Audi forum) whether one would have been better off with a Mercedes Benz E-class?

I take it you tried to trade in your A6 on a new Audi.

What would the situation have been had you tried to trade in a Merc E-class 2002 model on the latest?

What do you guys think?

Paul

At this stage no car really holds their trade values and it was only because of trade assist that car trade-ins stayed artificially reasonable.
The new attitude is that cars must hold their own, but witn one new change, hopefully next year and that is that second hands will be boosted by rental assists as has been done with new cars.
Maybe you would do better at Merc, good luck to you and may yo enjoy your new choice then.

TJ yes you are right - no car really holds their trade values. (except maybe for the less expensive ones).

However, I still believe that some cars DO hold better trade value than others. And Merc's are a case in point. Of course you'll still lose! But you'll probably lose less than on an Audi. In the public eye, the Merc has more value (yes, sweeping statement I know) - and there is not much you and I can do about that.

Four years down the line people are getting fidgety and sell their Audi's with only ONE year of freewayplan left (maybe). The Merc will after 4 yrs still have 2 yrs left. Despite the "phased-in" service plan where you start paying after the 1st services, this must STILL mean something ...

Your point about the "artificially assisted" trade prices, I think, is very valid. I also believe the motor industry in SA is stuffed! WHY must I pay so much for a new vehicle and overseas the same car costs so litte??? And then the excuse we get is "to protect the 2nd hand values" ... but try and sell your car and see then what those very 2nd hand values really mean .. YOU LOSE!

"The new attitude is that cars must hold their own ...". Actually, I'll also fully go along with that - I'd feel that it should rather be that way, to "pull" the market right, but then, when Car Manufacturers / Importers in doing so LOSE their "excuse" to keep on hiking the price, the question remains ... will new vehicle prices drop as well? Of course not!! Customer just get scr**** again!

Ja well TJ I sure hope I'll be happy too, but I have an important question to ask YOU:-

Will I still be welcome on this board having bought a Merc? Say I come here and post about the experiences I had with Audi, BMW and now Merc. If I post areas where I believe the Merc is superiour, will I be welcome here?

Or will I have committed the ONE onforgivable sin ....?

PLC, A little unfair, I do not see it as a sin to change brands, that is youy and my right if we so wish. I have made the change before as I have stated allready, drove a couple of Mercs and even a 1984 745i, which in those days was one of the sport lux brands.
I believe however that when one moves on, so be it, but then that allegiance obviously moves on as well. I believe the issue of 18 has gotten out of hand slightly and no-one minds the occasional posting, but not total takeover.
Not you, or I for that matter can say that we will never change brands. If Audi loses it's appeal then obviously we all move on to the next.

Honest answer - probably no better at all.

Why I am upset is:

The dealer very frankly tells you what book value is, even going as far as explaining that book is the maximum he is allowed to pay for the trade-in. If he is allowed to pay R245,200, and the car is as new (except for the mileage) - why only offer R210,000 ? Especially as he will be listing the vehicle for at least R265,000! I can not but help feeling ripped of. And how can he rescind on a trade-in offer less than 24 hours after making it, just because the new BOOK suggests a depreciation of R22,000 in ONE month ? And how, pay tell, is it even possible for book value to fall by that much in ONE month ?

If local brand representatives allow dealers to represent them in this fashion - we are all getting worked over, no matter what you drive...

Not even talking about financial institutions - they continue selling financing packages with HUGE residual values, even when they must know that there is no way the financed vehicle can ever hope to retain enough value to meet the final payment.

I'm just peeved in general about how the SA consumer is forever being taken for longer and longer rides.

Very very true the residial deals can make one sick. We the guys that pay hefty deposits and higher monthly installments can only hope and pray we don't loose too much let alone break even when trading in I just don't know about the poor bastards that financed with 40% residual.

Hell R22000 lost in a month will mean that if I wait another 8-9 months Audi SA would have to give me money to buy your car (lossing R22k x 8=R198k vehicle value according to them by then is minus R10000 if you are only offered R188 now) WOW I will have extra money for some new mags and wheels.

What a joke (on our back & expense that is)

I have been able to confirm from 2 other dealers over the weekend that book value didi NOT drop by R22,000 - it was just R5,000

Who wants to know who the rip-off dealer is? Hint.... they sell dodgy secondhand S3's.....

Give us the name

Let us have the name, it is time that the club members take a stand, lets see how these dealers stand up to real pressure.
If we all stay away from those dealers, the nonsense will stop, see this club as some kind ofd a union and place peer pressure on those who dont want to play ball.

"...how these dealers stand up to REAL PRESSURE"

LOL sorry but for one or other reason that one really tickled my funny bone!

Our old 'friend'... Audi Centre West Rand.

Plse search this board and read up on other users' sales and service experience with this specific dealer, and draw your own conclusions.

Audi Centre Westrand??? Why am I not surprised!

Paul,

The is a huge difference between someone posting once or twice about a non Audi brand (which I have no problem with) and someone continously posting about about the same non Audi brand. How many E60 M5 posts have we had here lately? Much more than RS6 posts in the same period.... Also, there is a manner in which to post in foreign territory, which should not look as if someone wants to covert you.

You seem somewhat confused, or did not read my posts (elsewhere) properly.

My mother tongue is French, so maybe I don't understand anything.

Back to Trade-in values.

We are being ripped off, be it for Merc, BMW, Audi, Nissan or whatever. It seems all cars are being traded in well below the book value, but when you walk around in a used car lot, prices are actually above maximum retail listed in the book (which name I can never remember).

As for new cars, I was told by a fairly high up Audi represnetative, that we have no right to complain about car prices, as I was complaining about the Nissan 350Z price in SA vs the USA (less than double) and the price of the new C6 A6 4.2Q, and car importers have the right to do whatever they want. Basically, the guy was telling me to get lost and asking questions about something that should not be of my concern....

Right, but at the end of the day, the public pays for the goods, hence they should have the right to question the huge differences in prices between cars in SA and for instance the UK, which is a RHD country hence the costs, execpt transport should be more or less equal.

REMEMBER THAT ALL CARS IMPORTED IN SA BY OFFICIAL IMPORTERS DO NOT PAY IMPORT DUTIES, AS THESE IMPORTERS HAVE EXPORT BUSINESS AND THUS DUTY FREE CREDITS.

and those who do not have export credit, ie Ferrari and Porsche, buy their export credits from exporters who have too much, for 10% of their value.....

My point is that, be it for new cars or used cars, the people in the motor industry are getting greedy, where they can. As an example, the A3 2.0 FSI's price is more or less equal to that of the same car in the UK, whereas the A6 4.2Q is a lot more expensive here, and to make things worse, in the UK the 4.2 has FSI, whereas not in SA....
All Audi did was to line up their prices for the new A6 with BMW and MB, thus the greed of the one is helping the others.

André

Hi all,

Yes sadly I think we are being ripped off with new car prices and second hand pricing. I bought a 2003 A4 3.0L, sunroof and sports suspension etc. I recently wanted to trade it in and was offerred a R201k maximum, which means I have lost R130k.

Yet when you look at the prices the dealers are charging for second hand cars (just a quick look at autotrader) they are selling cars with higher mileage for R260 to R270k.

Sadly despite the joy I get from the car, maybe it is better if I stick to a smaller car at least the knock you take in resale value doesn't hurt as much.

I couldn't agree with you more! this prices are Ridiculous, something has to be done, What I don't know but something and soon!!!
This is what I noticed with people here if you are working then you can afford a car but not there in SA. You have to work hard and save more just to buy yourself a secondhand car. Example a teacher earning $2000/month can buy a A4 1.8T Cost $28.000 here and the Same teacher earning R8000/month will battle to buy the same car A4 1.8T Cost R250.000. Why is that? The is a 82000 gap in the prices that's why.
People are still getting the same money but car prices have went sky high. It looks like since September 11 everyone has an excuse to do as they please. But this is not right!

If that someone was to read this please give us a break! I mean is only car prices that are sky high and nothing else!



Don't do anything that I wouldn't do!

Prices we good back in 2000 and the exchange was $1 - R7.85 and now prices are sky high and the exchange is $1 - R5.71 +/- R6 but that is not good enough to have a price relief on the car prices.
They talk about having more standard things on the cars! If that is the case let people have a choice on what they want. I rather drive A3 that does not have power windows but cost R50000 less!

Don't do anything that I wouldn't do!

I have to agree, they are all greedy bastards!

For my 2002 S3 (165kw) with 48,000km on it the best they offer me is R220,000.

Then they will sell it for R260,000 and make a R40,000 profit? at my expense!

They cut you on both sides, with the trade-in and when buying another car.

Not totally true. If they sell for R260k, the tax man takes R32k, so their profit is only R8 000 on a trade in of R220k...

Overtaker - I find this hard to believe... I other words, car dealers pay 80% tax (32000 = 40000 X 80/100) ? (in essence, input cost is offset against selling price, i.e. 220000 deducted from 260000 = 40000, therefore only taxed actual profit)

Can you substantiate this?

A car is an expense NOT an asset, and most certainly not an investment (with one or two exeptions of course). A car (like an Audi) is something we purchase and spend money on because we get enjoyment from it. End of story. YES, we are being severely ripped off for that enjoyment.
If you want the car and can afford it, then buy and enjoy.

I also agree that this club and other clubs like it should start putting pressure on the local stealers (er dealers) to bring their pricing in line with international prices.
Anyone remember how the prices went through the roof when the exchange rate was 12/13 - 1 to the Dollar. Now that we are back down below 6 to the Dollar, surely prices should drop accordingly?

Maybe customers should form picket lines outside these manufacturers offices and demand that pricing be brought in line?

Consumer groups overseas are very powerful when it comes to setting acceptable prices.

If you buy a car for R260 000 from a dealer, the price includes VAT. Look at the invoice / receipt, it should indicate that the VAT on a R260 000 car is R31 930 (ie 14% of R228 070)... plus any amount that he can claim back from the taxman...

Remember the tax man doesn't charge tax on the profit, but actually on the retail price to the end user.

It shows that the prices are often inflated, as the difference in the trade and retail is often less than 14% (ie VAT) which explains why dealers are offering less than trade value and selling for more than retail, which in turn makes the whole thing worse and worse for the consumer...

Never thought about it this way, thanks for clearing that up.

Partly explains why prices are what they are - dealers can not claim back VAT input costs on purchasing trade-ins, as the average customer is not VAT registered, and therefore, and the trade-in is therefore not VAT excempt.

Add to the dealers' expense companies tax (currently about 30% I think) on any profit made, and the picture looks even worse for consumers.

Regarding the comments on VAT and trade-ins you guys seem to be confused.

Dealers can claim VAT input cost against a trade-in.

For more details you can read section 7.4 of the VAT404 guide below:
http://www.sars.gov.za/v_a_t/guides/VAT404-%202004.pdf

Quoted:
In order not to disadvantage the second-hand goods market or to distort market prices, the VAT Act allows vendors under certain circumstances to claim an input tax credit on second hand goods acquired from a non-vendor (ie. where not VAT is actually payable to the supplier). This is known as notional or deemed input tax credit.

I can't agree with you more! I think the comsumer has more power than what we think! If the Car Companies hike their prices and they get more % of people buying car than before, they will keep on hiking the prices because it works for them.Even when we complain it does not work because we are buying more and more cars. But if no one buys a new car for a year guess what will happen, they will start to co-operate and reduce the prices.
Is not like we want to reap them off but we need reasonable prices. anything between 15%-20% cut from the retail price will be good.

And again on that note people who will need to buy cars, if they can settle for second hand cars for a year! we can win this battle

This is just my suggestion let's hear yours (Your Opinions will be appriciated)

Don't do anything that I wouldn't do!

I've been waiting to buy an Audi for over a year now:
2001 TT coupe, with at least 20k left on the maintenance plan.
Pref black or Red. For about R200 000. Yes I know. Anyone know what the dealerships are buying these for?

I waiting because of:
1. Rand value increasing
2. Pricing investigation
3. Increasingly lower interest rates
4. The big gap between what u buy the car for from Audi and the price they will buy it back.

I can't accept that the dealership wants to make R40k - R50k on reselling it. I've got to trade in my Golf(too much hassle to sell privatly) - thats why I'm looking to buy from a Dealership.

I'm holding on, but with car sales continuely increasing month on month, there's no hope. They've got us. Can't help feeling stupid, being the 1 person waiting to buy in the country. Any dealership's out there with a decent deal can call me at 011 636 0322. I'm waiting....

I joined the forum to learn as much as possible before I buy. I'd like to join the club some day ..... but in the mean time, I am willing to contribute toward the hosting of the forum - not that I want to bring that up.. .

Thanks guys for a great forum.