The results will be up shortly:
http://dobermann.com/pruefungen_09/koerung.htm

Also here:
http://dobis.net/neu/deutsch/ausbildung/ergebnisse_koerung/Koerung2009.html


--
Best wishes,

Nicoletta & Yankee

Thanks, Nicoletta.

The pictures from Zentralkörung are here:http://www.dogschoolk9.com

.

any video from Frigga von der Burgstätte?
Best Regards.

Thats the Korung? This is the ultimate temperment test for the breed?

The dog might be great but we are not being told anything about its temperment with that weak attack out of the blind. Ive seen harder at club trials back when this used to be a part of the Schutzhund 1

And the sad, sad, crazy thing is that a very high % of those dogs that enter the Korung actually fail.
And to hear the cheers on the sidelines with the courage test, anyone would have thought they decoy was just set on his butt.
And to think people actually use a dog getting a Korung as a recommendation of a working dogs quality.

Jason/Chris


How hard do you want a Koerung (or ZTP) to be? If it's too hard people wouldn't enter. Look at most GSD Sieger show bite work.
It's the same thing, decoys who feed the sleeve and wiggle the stick
and oohs and ahhs from the crowd for any dog that manages to stay on the sleeve?
What would you rather breed to, a dog that's passed a Koerung or a
SchH III who has never been off his home field and never saw a
decoy he/she hadn't trained with for years?

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa "DoDah" Germania (11/05/99) SchH III IPO III MR Brevet AKC WD III AWD I STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03)SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy TT BH
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (05/21/08)CGC

Id rather ban showing for the Dobermann breed for 10 years. Id rather some Dobermann people got together and had a real test for working Dobermanns. Id rather Schutzhund toughen up or just go away instead of this slow pathetic wasting away.

The courage test is next on the way out, will any of the Schutzhunders on this board quit Schutzhund if this happens?

The SV is pathetic so bad and so corrput that Helmutt had to start a real GSD breed club. Why doesnt someone do that with the Dobermanns?

Jason,

I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately there are no Raisers in the DV. The ADA was supposed to be "the" American organization for
the "working" Dobermann, with access to ZTP's, DV hips, FCI conformation shows etc. Too bad Roberto has choosen to keep it his little fiefdom.

Did you see where Les Flores has started a Working Dutch Shepherd
Association and is working on AWDF membership?

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa "DoDah" Germania (11/05/99) SchH III IPO III MR Brevet AKC WD III AWD I STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03)SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy TT BH
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (05/21/08)CGC

I would like to see the Korung to be similar to the Mali Korung, which is the only korung which actually means anything.
How about we actually replace the ZTP with the Korung and so anyone who wants to breed has to have a dog at least capable of an attack from the blind and a limp courage test. Any dog that fails this Thomas should never be bred from. EVER.

Jason

The beauty of the internet is that you can decide by watching a video if that is a dog that you would like to breed to or get a puppy from. Without the Korung, we would not have the ability to see this test of the dogs. You can learn from a bad video as you can learn from a good video. I also think 75% of good dogs are only good because of the training that they have had.

Paul Konschak

"I also think 75% of good dogs are only good because of the training that they have had."

in Yoda voice That is why you fail.

Actaully not all korungs are alike. I agree the helper work was VERY weak at that Korung but I know of many that are very difficult. It seerms to me the helper this year was just not as strong as I have seen it in the past. In previos years the helper runs over the dogs on the attack out of the blind and if they get the grip they were then driven in to the fence. I agree this year these dogs saw no pressure. Don't judge the korung on one S*&^%y dog video.

I don't know how many videos are out there. I have only seen this one video. Are there others somewhere?

This one video does not mean all dogs were worked exactly this way ... Generally males are being worked first from what I understand.

This is just a horrible test for Dobermanns it tells us nothing.

First off the bite is only 6 seconds long and that just isnt long enough to judge the dogs temperment.

Secondly Schutzhund style work isnt a good breed test period. Lets just take the facts

Schutzhund as a breed test has given us Rottweilers, Dobermanns, and GSDs as they are today.

Ring (Belgian and French) gave us the Malinois.

Malinois are Dominating Police work AND Schutzhund

Ring (Belgian and French) is a superior breed test by virtue of the dogs they have produced.

The saving grace of Jute lovers is the Malinois Korung in Germany, yes they use a sleeve but the work is much more like Ring (long duration bites, extreme helper prescense, environmental pressure) It is not so much Sleeve Vs. Suit but the intent of the decoy, and the rules being flexible enough for the decoy to really put some heat on the dog.

6 seconds on the bite, this is more like 3 or 4 seconds in a trial, tells us almost nothing. Running around "driving" a dog like that tells us nothing, waving that pool noodle around its face tells us nothing.

Ask for more and you'll get more.

"Schutzhund as a breed test has given us Rottweilers, Dobermanns, and GSDs as they are today"

Schutzhund has not given us the breeds as they are today. Breeders have given us these breeds of today. Breeders who do not want to have a great working dog gave us the dogs you speak of. There are many poor representives of malinois and dutch shepherd but it seems to me you have only seen great examples of these breeds. Ring has not given us the great malinois that you speak of. Only breeders who value the working ability of these breeds and strive to improve them have produced the better dogs. A sport is only one tool in evaluating a dog. It is not the end all solution.

Here is a link to the great working dogs of the past.

http://www.workingmalinois.org/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1314

Paul Konschak

"Schutzhund has not given us the breeds as they are today. Breeders have given us these breeds of today."
Not quite right. Breeders who are breeding for Schutzhund have given us the breeds as they are today.

It is not just breeders breeding for Sch that has given us what we have today. If that were the case we would be in a lot better shape than we are. It is people putting conformation above working ability. It is people not knowing what the hell they are breeding together that has contributed to what we have today. It is people not paying attention to health issues that has given us what we have today, causing anyone who is conscious of this to have a shallow gene pool to choose from in their selections. It is people wearing rose-colored glasses about their dogs they are breeding which has given us the dogs we have today. It is breeders who "train" but cherry pick trials, decoys and judges where their dogs will never see a bit of pressure on their way to a title and then breeding these dogs to similar dogs. I could go on.

Thank You Steve!! You said it perfectly!

I wonder what our german breeder friends think of this? anyone? they seem to be doing most of the work keeping the working dobermann lines alive as far as I can tell.

Talk is cheap.

I admire those European breeders (and American, BTW) you mentioned that are out there putting in effort training, trialing and improving the working doberman through wise selection.

Noticed these influential breeders find little value in reacting to such topics and internet critics.

So... Chris and Jason can you say the same about yourself? NOT! LOL!

Virginia,


Neither Chris nor Jason have to breed and/or train Dobermanns to recognize that there is a problem with the breed. I've never met
Chris but Jason has worked several of my dogs (Dobermanns and Dutchie) over the years and his opinion and insights are
valuable. Hopefully he will find a Dobermann puppy in the future that will be as successful as Bas.

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa "DoDah" Germania (11/05/99) SchH III IPO III MR Brevet AKC WD III AWD I STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03)SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy TT BH
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (05/21/08)CGC

Well lets see

I founded the first PSA club in Utah and hosted 3 trials there
I was the first certified PSA decoy in Utah
I have won regional and national titles in PSA

I founded the first Ring club in Utah
I was the first certified ring decoy in Utah
We have hosted 3 french ring trials one of which of was the western zone selectif
I have placed second in regional and national Ring competition
I have passed Ring3 with my personal dog that I raised from a pup.

I have certified in Mondio Ring

I started USADobermann and the working Dobermann forum, I have been actively invloved in working Dobermann training, discussion and promotion over the last 10 years.

I have worked countless Dobermanns across the country in suit and sleeve and have heavily promoted Dobermanns I felt cut the mustard.

Now my dear Virginia please offer something intelligent to the discussion, perhaps post your accomplishments, or silently place your rose colored Doberglasses back on and stick your head back in the sand.

I do find Virginia's post interesting in regards to our euro friends. It would be great to know what they have to say and what they see as positive about our dobermann's today and what the future holds for them.

Removing rose colored Doberglasses

Jason,

Not questioning your many trial accomplishments with your one DS. My previous comment was concerning working doberman breeders and the heavy burden that goes with the territory. If I'm not mistaken, your resume doesn't include working dog breeder.

I agree that with your experience working dobes in suitsports that you possess insight that may help breeders from a performance perspective.

However, maybe I'm the only one who has become tired of the sweeping generalizations and now predictable slams upon all from one video or trial result?

I like a spirited debate like the next person but your comment made me laugh, "please contribute something intelligent". It's the condescending attitude possessed by arrogant decoys that believe they are brushing shoulders with the gods! Silly, silly!

These are not sweeping generalizations they are the overwhelming majority of the Dobermanns competing.

From the decoy/helper/Judge side of the field the working Dobermann problem has grown to near insurmountable proportions.

I will make a seperate post about what I think needs to be done.

Looking forward to your post about what you think needs to be done!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-6CLLH3v1s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8OruEOXy0g&feature=related

A real breed test.

I agree Jason, this is what the Doberman needs to be tested for. Drive, nerve and hardness. However, it will never happen.
There is a reason the Mali is now the top of the pile, and thats because it is ran by working people who are honest about the issues the Mali has as a breed and they go about trying to test it and improve it. NVBK BR was invented because the Malis had environmental problems and this program was ment to improve the breed by testing for the actual issues the breed had.
All I can gather, both from the Dobe Korung itself and the pathetic reality that a high % of those put up for the korung fail, is that the Doberman has a problem with the attack out of the blind and a SchH 1 level courage test.

Seems like if the dober-people wanted a test that was harder like the mali korung someone would copy it. I can't really see too many dobermann people signing up to do a test where the bitework cannot be entirely trained for thus making the possibility of failure a real threat to an established brood bitch/stud's reputation. I'd love to see it made into a working suitability test for a variety of dog breeds, or even just start with a dobie one. I can think of a couple dobes that would probably rock that test, but the fear of failure again, will likely keep people out.

Would any of the people on this forum enter? I'd enter my mali, my dobe wouldn't pass, but she's spayed so it's not critical that she prove her genes are breedworthy.

when and where will it take place?

Sweet, 2 people - how many others? C'mon guys! Jason I know you'd be there with Bas. Seems all-breed for this would make it easier to get enough serious interested individuals.

Yes sure why not!

So this would be a true working suitability test, and unlike the Korung which I believe, requires a male to have Sch. III title to enter?

This may already exist>>>>>>> Mondioring anyone?!

You could count me in. As it is we can't even get breeders to put a lousy SchH1 on their dogs good luck with people doing more. Of course just a few notes...for those of you that think they don't train for the Mali Korung...WRONG. Also you only need a SchH1 for the Dobermann Korung well and a ZTP,AD and 2show ratings.
Sounds like a party

If my schedule allowed.

We'd be there, set something up.

course', as much as I'd like to believe that a mali knows how to bite a sleeve or perfect shin/bicep placement at birth...

Maybe it'd be easiest to just see if AWMA would allow off breeds to enter on a second day when they hold the Korung. Last I had heard it was still in the planning to get one held in the US, I sent an e-mail asking a couple people some questions. I'll see what I can find out. Unfortunately none of the existing dobe orgs would recognize this.

Ok -- so this has TWO bites -- one over something and another as an attack. My 12 year old female could do this in her sleep.

I'm sure Clark in IN would host it.

How about this fall?? Same timing as the DPCA event??

Pascal Louzy - Malinois Koerhelfer - is supposed to come to AZ later this year. Maybe something can be organized that he can be flown elsewhere after his stay to put this on - or even before. I'd be more than happy to help anyone get in touch with him as I speak French. He may even speak German.

Just a thought.


https://www.eurok9festival.com/pascal-louzy.html

Or simply bring him here on a separate occasion, charge an entry fee and cover the costs.

of having a hard breed test when there is so few breeders and people wanting a working dobe anyway? I think thatīs the real problem, wouldnīt be better if more dobes showed up and do a strong performance at the tests/sports already available, instead of figuring out harder tests? If people and breeders were more selective in what dogs to breed, the background/sport the dogs comes from would be of less importance I suppose. I mean, there are strong/weak dogs from various breeds and backgrounds, ring,SCH or whatever.

I agree 101% everyone seems to want to make the test harder but very few currently compete at the Doberman National events(UDC and DPCA).

DPCA Nationals is comming up in October and it would be great to have these real good working Doberman there to complete where the exposure is much larger.

I'm mostly a lurcker and a very new handler and have a question:

I did watch the clips of the MALS, they seemed to very prey driven dogs(lots of tag wagging) and don't think our breed is real prey driven. Sure, our dogs should have some balance between prey and defense but don't know if that type of test would really showcase our dogs ?

Tony

I agree, some want to make the test harder but very few currently compete at the Doberman National working dog events(UDC and DPCA).

DPCA Nationals is comming up in October and it would be great to have these real good working Doberman there to complete where the exposure is much larger and we can showcase our dogs to those who think they can't do any work.

I'm mostly a lurcker and a new handler and the MALS on the clips seem in crazy prey drive. Question; do our dogs have, and more importantly should they that type of prey drive or do we want more of a balance between prey and defense?

I would love to see a great turnout at the UDC/DPCA National events see how our dogs do and go from there.

Tony

The majority of breeders of working dobermanns (who train) are training for schutzhund. Schutzhund as a selection criteria for breeding is better than nothing, but it's not producing dogs who can do anything else besides schutzhund (with a few notable exceptions). I would rather watch the grass grow than train schutzhund, therefore I switched to malinois even though I'd much rather have a dobe that could do FR and MR. I'd like to see how some dobes do with a test that shows more than schutzhund style sterile work in the hopes of someday being able to find a dobe with a chance at ringsports. I'm optimistic, I know there are good dobes who would do well, it'd be nice to know who that is so why not test them outside their comfort zone of a routine? Isn't the point of a breed test to test the temperment beyond what they're used to to see a reaction - good or bad?

Edited to add: Schutzhund is great, I'm glad people like to train it, I respect the effort and energy it takes to train it well it's nothing to sneeze at, it produces some nice schutzhund dogs, it's just not for me...

Countless of GSDs from other background than ring are working as policedogs or other real work, and I canīt see why they shouldnīt be able to do ringsport to a decent level if the owner wishes, and itīs not to large and clumsy. Selecting dogs based on more than what you can see on the sterile trainingfield is good, but that I think is true for most sports, the malinois korung is pretty sterile too, itīs like SCH but with a twist, that the dogs also are prepared for, so I donīt know if itīs that superior as a breedingtest.

My point is itīs better that more people and breeders would be intressted to breed dobes that can do well in many areas, and not breed to those that pass a SCH 3 but are not that impressive.

"the malinois korung is pretty sterile too, itīs like SCH but with a twist, that the dogs also are prepared for, so I donīt know if itīs that superior as a breedingtest. "
If you honestly think that the Mali Korung is "pretty Sterile" and is nothing more that "SchH with a twist" and you are not sure if the Mali korung is any superior a test of character than the Doberman one then you are either joking, or you havent seen many mali korungs, or you have no idea about working dogs. Sorry to be harsh, but hey.
The Mali korung changes EVERY year, and like a NVBK trial you dont know what they will be doing.
Here is just one clip, of one bite, from one year with a Mali Korung.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOROaY-OvUA&feature=related

Now please tell me again that this is not testing a dog FAR, FAR, FAR more harder than any damm Dobie Korung has ever done.
People in the Dobermann breed need to grow up and be honest about where there Breed is.

Of course itīs tougher than the present dobe or GSD korung, but if it adds so much for a breeder I was wondering. I donīt know much about it, the films Iīve seen of it seems like SCH-style bitework with some environmentals stuff added, like cartons and rocks in a bottle, do you mean the anvironmentals and the whole routines are changed every year? Is some SCH-bitework around cartons so valuable as a breedingtest to see for a SCH-dog that also have trained for this? If you havenīt seen it in person I guess itīs then hard to draw any conclusions about it, if itīs not the same each year and different for each dogs.

Besides, even some belgians thinks the malinois has become weaker, in this age and with the advanced trainingmethods when mediocre dogs can be trained for doing well I guess itīs even more important to know how the dogs are outside the sportroutine. I would be glad if more breeders produced dobes that could do well in policework or the sport of choice, but I donīt think a malinois korung is the answear to this.

You are correct that some people in the Mali breed do believe that some of the dogs have got softer, and its mostly with the IPO dogs where this has been seen.
Thats why if I was looking for a Mali it would come from the KNPV or Ring dogs.
Now the benefit of the Mali korung for this dog on the video I posted is this. Im am sure this female Mali looked like a world beater on the IPO field, and to the owner maybe she thought her dog was perfect. She's taken her girl to the Korung and she has seen her dog come off the bite under pressure, showed some recovery and was a bit rattled by it. This owner now hopefully has seen the good and the bad of her female and maybe she has seen a male Mali at the same korung who didnt have an issue she could take her female to. And who knows, maybe a male she did like also showed problems that made her re-think her possible breeding?
This is what the Korung should be. Unfortunaltly the Doberman Korung doesnt show this.

Okay, even the Malinois ZTP is way, way harder than the Doberman Korung, and it also tests so many more things than does the Dobe Korung.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPRP4uh-aKI
If they brought out even the basic Malinois ZTP like in this video it would go along way to help people see what stands up and what doesnt.

I like that, it tried to find holes in the dog's comfort to see how it recovered, all in there likely in that test to weed out the more nervy mal since that's been an issue in the breed. Pick the breeds faults any try to select away from it.

How would you know if you have dogs that can do anything else if you don't try or test it in novel situations? Saying i think my dogs could do that usually doesn't mean **** - schH titles or not, the selection criteria for a good sport dog for something different isn't the same (countless people who started in FR with a dobe then switched to schH could be a sign...). I'd like to see a more diverse breed test besides a sch 1 routine which can't tell you how the dog would handle something different. Nothing is perfect, but if you don't expect more you won't get more... Obviously, since you can pass a ZTP and breed even if the dog bounces off the bite, and gee the problem of dobes bouncing off the bite is still prevalent, wonder why?

That ZTP was intressting, seems to have borrowed much from the swedish korung. Anyway, of course itīs good if breeders are very selective and test their breedingstock in different situations, but how may do that also in other sports and breeds? The problems with dobes seems to be to few breeders and people intressted in strong workingdogs, so if many dobes have problems with the present korung, how will a new one change that fact? No one stop the dobermans to compete in ring,KNPV or what sport is available in your country as it is today anyway, or just the plain old SCH.

About the belgians and the quality of the malinois, many think BR is the best, naturally, and may not like other sports so much, but the decline of the malinois is in general and not only in IPO what Iīve been told, even if they think BR still has the best dogs and donīt think IPO is so good. If the belgians themselves say so itīs a proof that ringsport isnīt the saviour of the dobe either I suppose. I think you can see good dogs in all of the various programs, even in IPO, but also many that is pretty boring.

On a side note, wasnīt the first german malinois of french lines but the offspring was sent back to france again because the germans didnīt like the french dogs, they liked the belgians better, but the skilled french trainers titled these dogs and they were then used also in breedings in france?

So what your basically saying Nicke from what I can gather is that not enough working people care about the working Doberman so whats the point in trying to make things harder?
This actually is what I hear alot from Doberman people. Maybe it is all over.

In regards to the Malinois in Germany, most of their inital dogs came from DDP, which is Belgium lines. I spoke to Bernhard Flinks and Alex Bayer about German Malinois and they were saying that alot of people in Germany are now bringing in French dogs to outcross to.
I have seen alot more French lines in German pedigrees nowdays.

Well, maybe itīs over, or will stay the same as it has I suppose for many years, a small group of people intressted in working dobes. Not much different in other so called working breeds besides the GSD and the mal. I donīt think the tests is the problem, there already are harder tests and other sports than IPO in both US and many European countries, nothing is stopping people and breeders to produce dogs that can participate in those of they want. Besides, I donīt think a really imnpressive IPO dog would have any problem to title in mondio,french ring or KNPV either, the problem is when people breeds the pointdogs with less natural drive, both in IPO and ring.

Yeah, the german malinois is founded on much belgian blood, maybe they nowadays are starting to crossing in more french dogs, but what Iīve heard they werenīt that impressive with the french dogs from the start and get rid of them , maybe they were for soft for their SCH;)