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What to do if you get STOPPED BY THE POLICE...

October 7 2002 at 3:11 PM
  (Login deathvalley1969)
Forum Owner

 

Ok...
so the local fuzz got yer ass pulled over.
Now what?



What to do if you get stopped by the police:

Remain Calm.
Think straight.
Take a deep breath...

Because of various historical accidents, there are aspects of the law that, at least in theory, protect individual "liberties." The law presumes, however, that everyone knows what these protections are and if you don't know what they are, it is very easy to "waive" these rights. Therefore, in the interest of giving us all an equal chance when we're confronted by the cops, here are some thoughts on the law of police stops and searches.

These thoughts are based on how things are supposed to be "in theory." The reality is that police can and will do anything they want out on the street. And they won't hesitate to lie about it later on.
And since 9/11...[the Patriot Act of 2001], many things have changed and the issue has grown more complex.

But some cops are worse than others and a lot of them may treat you differently if they think you know your rights. The police depend on fear and intimidation to get what they want. Don't let them get away with more than they are allowed to because of fear.

If you run into a really bad cop, talking back to him and standing up for your rights might get you beaten up or killed, so be careful about the realistic limits of "the law" and of your rights in America. Cops are perhaps the most dangerous members of our society, so be careful when you talk to them.

David Simon, a reporter for the Baltimore Sun in his book Homicide, pp. 204-220, shows how cops "trick" the ignorant into waiving right after right. The basic strategy he writes about involves bombarding the subject with so many questions that he/she doesn't think to say "I want to talk to a lawyer and I don't want to answer any questions until I do." Simon reports that cops follow the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit. Thus a subject who says "Maybe I should get a lawyer" is met with the response, "Maybe you should." Similarly: "Those few with heart enough to ask whether they are under arrest are often answered with a question: 'Why? Do you want to be?' -'No.' - 'Then sit the fuck down.'"

The correct response to "Why? Do you want to be?" is "You did not answer my question. Am I under arrest? If I am not I desire to leave now."

That sharpens the point a little, but is still non-confrontational.

The next round is to state that "Under the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States, I am free to leave unless I am being detained or under arrest. I desire to exercise those rights. I desire to leave now. May I leave?"

If the discussion continues beyond this point, you're probably detained or under arrest from a legal perspective. If you're still in the building at this point then your next utterance ought to be "I want a lawyer. Now."

Cops are tricky. You have to be explicit in invoking your Constitutional Rights otherwise you "waive" them.

A problem I have noticed personally, is the attempt to confuse the individual with double questions that are
nearly always impossible to answer "correctly" while sober...much less while impaired or intoxicated.

Example:
You don't mind if I search your car...do you?

There are two questions here, and both require a VERY different answer. So which do you answer? This problem becomes even more difficult, because the officer is optically scanning your car for any "fruits of a
crime" [a weapon, drugs, open beer, a pipe, etc...ALL WITHIN PLAIN SIGHT].



The use of a double question is both DELIBERATE and EFFECTIVE. These types of interrogation tactics
are well thought out and taught to officers in order to "trip up" the individual by confusion.

A simple yes or no answer to that query by you, the individual, is NOT SUFFICIANT.

You must say..."Yes, I do mind if you search my car. I am a half hour late for xxxxxxx already, and I am in
a hurry."

Another tactic is to ask the individual:
"You don't have any Guns or Drugs in your car, do you?"
[you answer "no..."]
"Oh, OK.
"Well, just to satisfy my curiosity, you don't mind if I look around a little bit...DO YOU?"
"I mean, after all, you have nothing to hide...and you look like a law abiding citizen...
I promise it won't take long."

NEVER EVER LET THEM "JUST LOOK AROUND."

Another crude [and in my opinion illegal] tactic is to tell you:

"Look, if you have a little weed on you [or a pipe] for personal use...tell me now so we can get through
with all this BS, and I'll let you go. Don't lie to me or it will make it worse. I don't want to mess your car
up looking for it, and neither you nor I need the hassle...So just tell me the truth and you'll be on your way."

YEAH...ON YOUR WAY TO JAIL FOR POSSESSION.
A police officer can not, by law, "cut a deal" with you. And they often lie to you and say they will let
you go. I have seen this done MULTIPLE TIMES. THEY NEVER LET YOU GO.
The key is to never let them in your car. If confronted in a parking lot, get out of your car, lock it, and walk towards the building as if you don't even notice them.

OK...
First things fucking last:

~PRELIMINARIES~
First, make absolutely sure that you are in fact dealing with a bona-fide police officer; impersonation of police officers by criminals is an increasing problem. Ask for identification from any non-uniformed person purporting to be a law enforcement officer.

If, in a vehicle, you have any doubts as to whether the people attempting to stop you really are police [no flashing light-bar, no marked police car and/or no police uniforms or identification] KEEP DRIVING at a safe speed to the nearest police or fire station, open gas station or service plaza.

If it really is police there will be more police cars appearing very shortly once you don't stop after the initial request to pull over. You should stop immediately at the appearance of additional police cars.

If it is actually the police attempting to stop you, they will not be pleased that you didn't stop immediately, but they should understand your behavior and not hold it against you if you then deal with them correctly.

Always keep your hands in plain sight and your arms at your sides when dealing with a police officer. Make no sudden moves and speak in a level, calm voice. Be very polite and to the point; insults and invectives may feel good, but can only make your situation much worse.

If you are stopped in your car at night, pull completely off the road, turn off your engine, lock your doors, roll up all windows except the driver's window and turn on the overhead light. Have your license, registration and proof of insurance out for the officer when he arrives at your vehicle. Your production of those items will be his first request during a normal traffic stop. Do not get out of your car unless told to.

When a police officer stops you on the street, the law says that the stop will fall into one of 3 categories: consensual contact, detention or arrest. Which one you're in determines how badly they can fuck with you.




~CONSENSUAL CONTACT~
At one end is a "consensual contact." This means that the officer comes up to you and says "can I speak with you?" If you say "yes," you have consented to have contact with the police. That is very bad. The result of such "consent" is that you won't have various "rights" under the Constitution.

Especially if you think you may be guilty of something [you have a warrant out on you, you are carrying drugs, you just did something illegal], NEVER consent to talk to a police officer. This sounds backward. But the normal impulse when confronted with a cop is to be polite and try to convince them that you aren't doing anything. If you follow such an impulse, you are unlikely to actually convince the officer and if the cop gets you on something, you won't be able to get out of it later on in court. Never voluntarily talk to the police! Say..."I am running late for a xxxxxx meeting already [or whatever] and I got to get going."

If you don't think you are guilty of anything, it still isn't a good idea to consensually talk to the cop. You never know how the conversation will end up. And if people figure "well, I'm not guilty of anything so I'll let the police stop me and ask me a few questions now and then" the police state will be on the march. Further, it will encourage the idea that people who don't want to talk to the police have something to hide. This type of reasoning is the EXACT CAUSE of the passage of the Patriot Act of 2001.
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.[dream on!!!]

How do I avoid a consensual contact? If the cop asks, "Can I talk to you?" say something like "I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry and I don't have time to talk to you right now." If the cop insists, ask him "Are you detaining me? Am I free to leave?"

Ask this several times to make sure the cop will have a hard time lying by saying you didn't mention it later on if you get to court. If it is really a consensual contact, the officer ought to let you go on your way if you ask to go. If you don't actually verbally ask to leave, the court will presume that you consented to whatever follows.

~DETENTION~
The next category of citizen/police contact is called a detention. The police are only allowed to detain a citizen when there are "specific and articulated facts supporting suspicion" that you are involved in criminal activity. This means that they can't detain you on a "hunch."

"Specific and articulated facts" [SAF] means that the police must have observed something about your behavior and character that links you with specific criminal activity. If the police detain you without SAF, the detention is illegal and whatever they obtain as a result of the detention [evidence or arrest] cannot be used against you in court.

How does this all work in practice? Suppose the police stop you because it is late at night, you are walking around the city, "you look at them funny", look "strange" or are homeless or the wrong color.

The officer says "Excuse me, may I talk to you?" If you say “ok,” you have just consented to talk to the police. If the officer notices after talking to you for a while that you have spray paint on your fingers or notices a bulge in your coat, the officer can find cause to detain you and could eventually arrest you.

If, however, you say "No, I have to go," the officer is supposed to let you go because he or she doesn't have SAF that you are involved in criminal activity. Just because you look funny and it’s nighttime, will not cut it in court. Courts have found all of the facts mentioned above insufficient to justify a detention.

If the cop says, "Well, you can't go" or otherwise detains you, then IF they do find a reason to arrest you, you may be able to avoid the penalty because the original detention was illegal. If the officer detains you and finds nothing, you should complain to the city, the Police Review Commission in your town [if there is one] and you should let COPWATCH know about what happened [1-510-548-0425].

Often [except as noted below], when you start throwing around terms like "detention" and "specific and articulated facts" the cop is going to lay off. Most of the cop’s power is intimidation and the public's ignorance of the law and of their OWN Civil and Legal Rights allowed and guaranteed by our Constitution.

It is crucial that you let the officer know that you are not "consenting" to talk to him and that the only way you will talk to him is if he detains you.




However...
there may be SAF in some circumstances. If you rob a bank wearing red pants w/ a black shirt and are spotted 15 minutes later in those same clothes carrying a white moneybag reported missing by the bank, the police will probably have SAF. There is nothing illegal about a police detention if they have SAF, but not just anything is a "specific and articulated fact" supporting suspicion that you are involved in criminal activity.

The facts have to be very SPECIFIC. A lot of police harassment situations involve the police stopping people because they "look wrong" and then going on fishing expeditions looking for a valid reason to arrest, which they didn't have at the beginning of the stop. Don't give the officer a chance to find anything out - Just Say "No".

What if the officer asks to search? More serious than consensual contact and/or detention is an ARREST. For an arrest, the police need a high level of suspicion of your involvement in criminal activity. If you are arrested, the police CAN [and will] search you as part of the arrest.

~SEARCH~
If the officer asks to search you without arresting you, you CAN say "No." The police have the right to search for weapons if they feel a danger of being attacked. They are not allowed to search people for other items. In a lot of cases the police ask to search someone and obtain "consent" to search. Even though the search isn't justified, it will be LEGAL because the citizen didn't object AND therefore "consent" is presumed.

If the officer asks to search you or any of your property, say "No" and ASK if you are under arrest or if they have a warrant. If you aren't and they don't, tell them "I would rather not let you search." They may ask many times and seem to be acting with complete authority. Just Say “No.” Do NOT let them search you unless they arrest you or have a warrant.

If they search anyway and find something, you may be able to escape the penalty later in court. If the cop is obeying the law, they should leave you alone. The fact that you refused to be searched should not make you more "suspicious" [in the eyes of the court.] Do NOT give them an excuse to search.

Of course as stated above, the police WILL ignore all of these laws and they may be less than polite and non-violent. When a cop gets out of control, deal with it carefully. But don't voluntarily consent to either a search or a detention.

~ARREST [DETENTION]~
Once you are under arrest, offer NO physical resistance, volunteer nothing and answer no questions.
At this point...
NOTHING you can say will prevent you from being handcuffed and taken to the station for booking. And
EVERYTHING you say WILL be used as evidence against you in court. Resistance to handcuffing and any police actions/orders will get you an automatic "Resisting Arrest" charge as well as any number of injuries as the police use whatever force they deem necessary against you until you comply with their directions.

[I was beaten by the police…AND THE ENTIRE TIME I COMPLYIED WITH THEIR ORDERS. It will happen, at times, so be prepared. If a beating IS occurring, demand BADGE numbers, and PROTECT YOUR HEAD]

Your only response to any interrogation from the moment that you are told that you are under arrest should be "I want a lawyer".

At this point, more than likely…you will need one.
It is always wise to have an attorney in mind for your legal defense.
Yes…shit happens…and it hardly ever knocks first.
Be safe and Go Easy,

~~Darkstar~~







    
This message has been edited by deathvalley1969 on Oct 15, 2002 10:27 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

(Login deathvalley1969)
Forum Owner

Moan on...

October 16 2002, 7:36 PM 

dear saliors.

-phzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.

[answers later]





 
 
merc
(Login marcsorr)

censorship?

October 17 2002, 3:07 AM 

don't you ever say ANYTHING about government oppression again. You take off my post? Im pretty sure freedom of speech should apply to YOUR page. You're gunna be that judgemental of the "system" and censor shit from your page? This is the most hypocritical thing I have ever seen. I can't belive this shit. You have no idea how pissed this makes me. BIG disapointment.
I dont care about other shit people say but if you dont like my opinion come up here and tell how you justify this shit. Fuck this. Seriously, I come on here and respond to your post and you take it off? I didn't know this was your personal kingdom. You better have a good explaination for this. Say the FBI made you take that off or something.
THIS IS BULLSHIT

you're down a point,
marc sorrells

 
 
Katie
(no login)

Re: What to do if you get STOPPED BY THE POLICE...

October 17 2002, 9:49 AM 

I'm not sure what darkstar's answer will be, but
it seems to me you can't make your point without
PERSONALLY attacking a person.
If someone doesn't agree with YOU, you smugly
consider them WRONG and even STUPID.

DARKSTAR listens to both sides of a story and he
dosen't act like a smug baby when you don't agree
with him.

I don't think its a matter of censorship...because
he doesn't agree with your posts, I think it might
be because you PERSONALLY attack people and belittle
anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Learn how to debate without being a baby.

 
 

(Login deathvalley1969)
Forum Owner

Easy,greazzy...

October 17 2002, 1:53 PM 

Katie is quite correct,
I do not respond to personal attacks, good sir.
There are many things that could have "left my fingers"
as I typed a response. Instead I backed off for a few,
in order to cool off...[And may cooler heads prevail.]

I have purposely limited those that have access here.
We have over 50 individuals that could be invited on
this forum. They are all good friends[mostly...
with a few trolls that destroyed Brian Johnson's
"Severe Sinema" tucked in that would love to find this
site and FUCK IT UP] as well as various groups of
people from other parts of our lives
[personal, professional,academic, and socially]
That was NOT HOWEVER, THE PURPOSE OF --THIS--FORUM.
[I am starting to wonder if I shouldn't just let
everyone on...]

I invited people here to keep a "certain" group of
Shenango Valley residents in touch with one another.
It was only ment to be a message board for those of us
that tend to hang together so we could communicate via
the internet for weekend plans. I thought it would be
fun if we tried to start a discourse on our current
society, be it art, music, politics, books...
whatever. I tried to moderate this area within the
confines of Network54 policies and guidelines so we
would not face the rath of NW54's pulling this board.
This adresses such issues as nudity, etc.
Fine, as much as I hate censorship, we must adhear to
their stinkin' laws.

However, that in mind...
let us review the issue as to why we are here.
We are here as friends.
At least I assumed as much.
I asked a very few to come here as friends.
NOT TO SNIPE AT EACH OTHER.
Especialy with what appear to be personal attacks.

Let it be known that I have deleted various responses
from others aimed at both merc and porkbayonette.

If you wish to partake in an intelligent, cordial
discourse about ANY subject...fine by me.

I never burdened anyone with out right "rules or
regulations" but there is ONE rule which will be
strickly enforced: NO PERSONAL ATTACKS ALLOWED.
If anyone can not agree to this term...
then I suggest you lose this URL.

Believe you me...
I could have unleashed as much about either one of you.
The creation of this forum was in a direct response
to a dear friend of ours committing suicide.
I would appreciate a bit of understanding.

'nuff said.

[this will stay posted for several days and then this
and the 2 above will also dissappear.]


Friend or foe.
-your choice.

As for me...
this should explain it all:

Often we are driven to explore the nature and meaning of our own personal
existence, so much so, that we miss entire segments of the overall picture,
if not the entire picture as a whole. Our meaning, nay our REASON, is for
the unbroken prolongation of our species while growing ever-more vigilant
in our quest for intellectual and cultural enrichment. Humankind must, with
patience, courage, and wholesome fortitude move ever forward to engage
and promote intellectual freedoms and the endearing notions of respect for
oneself, for others, and for all living creatures. This must be our foremost
concern. Any other agenda is pure folly. One can exist, grow, and prosper
without the utter disregard and ravishment of its own and other peoples. Let
one realize that the cavalier "devil-may-care" attitude that permeates our
current society will destroy us in the end. Our only duty is to forestal the
forgone conclusion as long as humanly possible (that in itself, is an intensely
complex and arcane complication). Bottom line: HELP OR GET LOST...

Thoughts?
Ideas?
[ones that can remain posted...please.]

GoEasy,
-jeff



 
 

(Login deathvalley1969)
Forum Owner

BTW...

October 17 2002, 2:43 PM 



Merc...re-read the "if stopped by the police"
[opening paragraphes--better?]. The "system" was ment
tounge-in-cheek as a personal joke between
myself and another [on another forum].
However, if you think that all of today's
cops got your best interests in mind...
-shame on you.

Look, I have nothing against good cops...
but because they are fair and do their duty,
I do not need to address them. The bad apples
[of which abound in the SV right now] need addressed.
BTW...I am sure you are aware that SHARON PD now has
a K-9 drug unit [unit # 109, heard on 460.425 TAC II]
and has been routinely used in the last few weeks to
GO THROUGH EVERY VEHICLE STOPPED FOR A TRAFFIC
VIOLATION...as well as HOUSE SEARCHES FOR SUCH
MINOR VIOLATIONS AS "DOMESTIC DISPUTES."
[I have recorded radio traffic proving violation of
civil and constitutional rights of others.]

Sharpsville PD, as well, has a K-9 drug unit [heard on
453.225 mhz TAC I] and is currently running dogs thru
people's vehicles on a regular basis.
Here visit their website: http://www.usacops.com/pa/p16150/
[just for fun!!!]


[officer moustache and friend]

Care to explain?
On your ventures abroad...
NORTH KOREA may well be found in your backyard of say..
Sharon...or Sharpsville.

And as much as you try to paint me unAMERICAN...
Let me say this:

I LOVE AMERICA...
Enough to want to improve it's standards FOR ALL.

Re-read my email signature above...
and try to deny that it was not uttered from the
lips of a PATRIOT.

As for you PORKBAYONETTE...
smokin' crack...
I refuse to inhale any substance named after
ass-anatomy. In fact, I neither smoke weed nor
drink as of late. I can't remember the last time
I was fucked up.

--AND--

I have NARY ONE BUMPER STICKER ON MY BLAZER...

--NOT A ONE.

[except for the one that YOU made that said:
"Jeff Negrea for PRESIDENT!"]

-snicker, snicker.

I expect both of your votes when I run for public
office.

I am a registered REPUBLICAN...so adjust your
registrations as you see fit.

GoEasy,
-jeff





 
 

(no login)

What's all the hub-bub, bub?

October 17 2002, 9:10 PM 

Ahhh, ahem.
Play nice kids.
After all, life is a tad short to waste fighting
friend vs. friend.

Spend the energy wisely.
Pitch a loaf,
wipe well, and
Throw some poop at our current Theif-of-State.

the FREE-DOOM POSSE has spoken!

 
 
porkbayonet
(no login)

Re: What to do if you get STOPPED BY THE POLICE...

October 22 2002, 3:57 PM 

So, darkblurb, are you saying that you will be donating to the F.O.P's 2003 fund drive? The money raised benefits the families of fallen cops.(yea right)

The moral of the story kids...Dont piss on cops, even if they are on fire!

 
 

(no login)

widow maker

November 10 2002, 5:39 AM 

what goes good with a bear claw?
dead cop-a-soup.


 
 
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