I am having such a difficult time getting a Lucid dream that I am almost losing hope. I am wondering. Is astral projecting easier to attain than LD,ing? I have a new book from a writer called "Ophiel", who says his( little system ), is almost guaranteed to produce results in a few days. What do you think? Thank you

I have had many LD's but none AP as far as i know, so i would say that LD is easier for me, but a friend of mine have had many AP but none LD so i guess it diffrent from person to person.
I have heard that AP from a LD is pritty easy, never made it myself, but i would think that AP is easier if you have LD's. (Hope that made any sense,sorry for my bad english)

I'm not sure it would be any easier, many AP techniques read very similar to WILD techniques. It is a different mindset and approach that may be a better fit for you.

I personally haven't truly AP'ed. I believe this is a good site for AP knowledge :

http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/Alfred.Ballabene/english/engindex.htm

I believe there is also a German version for anyone more comfortable in that language.



Later -------------- CloudHelmut

Hey, I've asked myself this question too. I think lucid dreaming is easier. I bought Robert Bruce's 'Astral Dynamics' a while back and decided that I would have a go at working directly at OBE/Projection instead of using Lucid Dreams as a path to them. Anyway, I read this book 'Astral Dynamics' and there are SO MANY exercises, I felt my head would explode. Physical relaxation, mind taming, breath awareness, spot focus, trance induction, NEW energy development, toe work, finger work, sole work, palm work, full body cicuits, chakra work, bounce work, etheric loosening and MUCH MUCH MORE (and I haven't even mentioned the technique used to leave the body eg. Rope/point shift/steering etc). Seriously, having that many exercises is not practical... especially when he says that they should be worked with on a daily basis. The funny thing is, he continues to state that having OBE/projection experiences are not as hard as everyone says. If he is referring to the use of his methods, I would have to disagree! It's not hard. It's DAMN hard!!

So I would stick to LDs. But since you're having trouble with them, I would suggest you go with and TRY out APs. As another guy said... every1 is different. Also if the book you have guarantees you results within a FEW days, GO FOR IT! Actually, I might even check this out myself.

Astral projection is hard, lucid dream is much easier, the good thing about lucid dream i that it's very easy to get to astral projection out of a lucid dream, for example try to enter a mirror and tell yourself "after i will enter the mirror i will find myself out of my body!!" or fly high in the sky and then start to dive down as fast as you can while telling yourself again and again "When i will reach the ground i will be out of my body!!!", when you reach the ground you will find yourself out of your body.

I hope it's help ;-)

Bye bye.

LDing is supposed to be easier, but I've had more success with obe techniques than with LD attempts. But maybe for someone who has more experience in both, they may be of equal difficulty (or simplicity).
Obe techniques are mostly very similar to WILD methods, but there are also techniques where you consciously awaken during sleep.

I've also read Astral Dynamics, I found it very enlightening and highly recommend it. It recommends LDs as an easier alternative to obe's, but also as stepping stone. Although Bruce lists numerous techniques and excersizes for obe's, I think they are all fairly simple. In my opinion, there are several methods, but each one on its own is simple to understand and follow, but the difficult part may be the dedication required to persevere for days/weeks. Bruce says it is not necessary to do all the exersizes before an attempt, the rope method will be enough. I haven't yet properly attempted the rope method, I haven't quite felt the time is right.

From my experiences I'm sure that if I could find the energy and time to devote maximal effort to WILDs and OBE's even someone like me (with absolutely "no skilzz") would progress a lot faster. So keep trying!

Thiamedes, I'd be very interested to hear about Ophiel's methods!

~


~


Being poor sucks!

Thanks Cloud Helmet for that astral projection website. I tried the rope technique last night for the first time and I got a little nauseous so I stopped and fell asleep. The weird thing is that I had six clear vivid dreams, (not LD's), whereas I had difficulty recalling my dreams prior to that. Unfortunately all six dreams were nightmares. Maybe this was because I really deep inside am afraid of AP, because I fear the unknown. I don't really know. I'll try the rope method again tonight and see what happens.

"I tried the rope technique last night for the first time and I got a little nauseous"

That's what you're supposed to be feeling! The dizzy feeling/nausea meant that you were putting good pressure on your astral body. If you had kept on going, you probably would have triggered the projection reflex (as RB says).

Thank you No-Skills for that helpful information.

No prob, it looks like Ballabene went to some trouble to put all that info together.

I suppose that it should be mentioned that some consider OBE and AP to be distinct experiences. Different "bodies" are being projected. My impression is that it's believed that in OBE you are more centred around this plane while in AP you are not(higher plane?).AP would tend to be less "realistic" in content but more euphoric. That again, is merely my impression of the supposed difference.(cover my ass enough?). Actually, I'm not sure there is really any consensus on it but i'm no expert.

As no_skillzz suggested, you should see if you can work through the unpleasant feelings. Remember that the nausea is probably being caused by your brain trying to interpret info from two different body images(the one that is falling asleep and the one that you are visualizing). If you are patient you should get through it.


Later ------------- CloudHelmut

Thanks No-skillzz and Cloud Helmet. I tried the rope method again and again I got very nauseous and very dizzy. Also, my body trembled and shook a little, but I think it's because of my effort. I never left my body though. I went back to the website by Robert Bruce and read the instructions again more carefully this time. He says if you don't get out in 15 minutes, forget about it and try again later. The only problem I had was that the dizziness remained with me about 40 minutes after I quit trying. I skipped all the excercises and went directly to the rope method cause Robert Bruce said that was O.K. I'll try again before bedtime and again tomorrow. Thanks for all your kind help.

Hi! I tried the rope method again last night just before bedtime. The amazing thing that happened , was that I could remember my dreams clearly, vividly and in detail.They were not LD's or nightmares, but simple ordinary dreams. Prior to this rope technique, I had always had a lot of difficulty recalling or remembering my dreams. But I don't understand what the connection is between the rope method and good dream recall! I wonder why this is so?

Heck, I don't know how or why the Rope technique is giving you better dream recall, but as one wwf wrestler says ...

"It's not a BAD thing. It's a GOOD thing"

Anyway, being serious now, you can even ask RB why the Rope tech is giving you better recall, but if I were you ... I wouldn't. Ya see, the mystery of it all acts as an example of dream incubation - Ancient Egyptians used to sleep in sacred places in order to improve dream recall. They didn't know exactly how it worked, but it did. Just as you don't know HOW the Rope helps you improve dream recall, it stil helps. Maybe is psychological, maybe it isn't. Do you care? As long as it works.
Note: You don't have to follow my advice, it's just what I would do.

Also in Robert Bruce's book, the guy seems to wet himself over the concept of Physical Relaxation. Maybe if you try some of that out and then do some quick Chakra work, and THEN try the rope, you might be able to get out.