Response to http://rascalguru.livejournal.com/2630.html
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Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply "superiority". I believe the gene pool offers up both types for a reason.

But there is no question that alpha's impose their will on betas. That's my point. And my own personal quest has not been so much one of learning to impose my will on others as it is learning to never have anyone elses will imposed on me.

But I'm not sure you can have one without the other. Whatever Rand thought about how there would be no conflict of interest among rational men (yeah right!), the fact remains that we live in an overwhelmingly irrational society, and alpha's are naturally adapted to such a situation.

So can we fault alpha's for being naturally wired to deal with irrationality? You may be saying to yourself "But they don't deal with it via rational means!" True, but they deal with it. We don't.

Or didn't used to. I do now.

And while it's nice to have the luxury of being able to turn it off and turn it on, I would probably have preferred to have grown up with it on all the time. Better than having gotten walked on as a kid, and then as a young adult. To this day, I wish I was more aggressive.

I think your life would be worse if you had been alpha. You'd have had more sexual conquests, but that's about it. You'd have played some inane sport in high school and thought yourself a god for it. Then the rest of your life would have been one giant disappointment with inappropriate aggression sabotaging you at every turn. You'd probably have a worse job, be married to a woman you hate, and have a rotten kid just like you. With quantity of women being the exception, it's a beta's world and you've done alright in it. All the alphas from my high school are fat, bald, and going nowhere now. The betas are doing significantly better and seem happier, however ugly their girlfriends are.

"All the alphas from my high school are fat, bald, and going nowhere now. The betas are doing significantly better and seem happier, however ugly their girlfriends are."

Right. That's because the betas are now picking up the scraps the alphas have left behind.

But it only really applies to women. In nearly every other facet of life, betas beat alphas outright and alphas take the scraps from THEM. The alpha-style aggression and dominance that makes women like them is disfavored in nearly every other context. It's destructive to academics, work, friendships, and family life. Look at all of the PUAs in The Game, their lives were a huge mess except for the fact that they got laid a lot. And all the jocks from high school are a joke now.

It comes down to asking yourself how important sleeping with quality women is to you, weighed against everything else. For me, the answer is somewhat.

I simply don't agree with your premise. I know plenty of alpha's with whom I work every day that lead happy, healthy lives. There are enough of them that you will have a tough time convincing me that being an alpha is somehow logically connected to the fate you describle. And for every tragic alpha story I can tell you a story of a floppy fish-dick beta that suffer no less miserable a fate.

You'll have to connect the dots somehow. Anecdotal evidence isn't going to cut it. Not when the CO of my regiment is still running a perfect PFT at the age of 45, still going to the gym every morning, still commanding the respect of not only his subordinates but his peers. Not while I see alpha's older than I am who are living the life I wanted for myself.

And I see beta's doing the same. I simply think on it's an individual basis.

You realize that the military, the police department, and the fire department are the three employers in this country in which physical prowess and channeled aggression are relevant job skills. These are the three employers that advertise specifically to alphas and actively seek to recruit them after high school and before college. However stable and rewarding these jobs may be, they are low-qualification, low-entry pay, and require major commitment. Of course there are alphas who live stable, relatively happy lives. But these are not career paths which prove that alphas run the world, in fact, they somewhat suggest the opposite.

Let's take stock.

Number of alpha professors I've met: Zero.
Number of alpha doctors I've met: Zero.
Number of alpha engineers I've met: Zero.
Number of (successful) alpha lawyers I've met: Zero.
Number of alpha judges I've met: Zero.
Number of alpha senators/congressmen I've met: Zero.
Number of alphas I've met who make over 200k a year: Zero.
Richest man in the world: Bill Gates, the quintessential beta.

Alphas get women in the 20-30 age group. Other than that, betas rule the world. Are there beta fuck-ups? Of course. But if you look at the high paid, high-powered positions in the business/academic/political world, 99% of them are betas. Alphas can never make it that far, because they usually lack the required intelligence, and the ones who have it simply aren't likable because they're too aggressive and threatening. How to Win Friends and Influence People is a guide on how to be a successful beta (not a fuck-up beta). You don't see any alpha techniques in there, because alphas cause constant conflict with their behavior by definition.

Well, after some reflection, I believe you've made a good case.

But still, I feel it's an individual thing. I know too many alpha males who are not only generous, decent people, but are a downright pleasure to be around. I think your broad-brush-stroke is way too simplistic.

I know when you think "Alpha", images of that insane fucking frat guy pop up in your mind, but it's simply not that way all the time. I try my best to model my behavior and character after the fictitous "Spenser" in the Robert B. Parker novels (I don't know if you've ever seen "Spenser for Hire" - it was based on the same character.) Obviously, I insert my own values and ideas where applicable, but Spenser has always been the depiction of an ideal man in my mind (at least for the last 18 or so years) and he is nothing if not alpha.

Alphas get women in the 16-26 age range, I'd say. Around 27 is when women start turning to betas for security and child-rearing. Admittedly, this is a reason I am primarily only interested in college-aged girls. I am simply not yet ready to consign myself to some other alpha's throw-away.

If part of the definition of "beta" is one who avoids confrontation, then I cannot abide such a distiction. Even if it is true (and I think for the most part it is), I cannot accept that about myself. More and more I realize that there is one reason and one reason only that people avoid confrontation, and that is fear.

By that formulation, to say that being a beta is "just fine" is to say that fear is "just fine". That's why I cannot accept that designation. If I spend the rest of my life trying to shake it, then so be it. If there's a way to be beta without being scared of confrontation, then that's fine with me too, I guess. But I cannot accept fear as a normal, legitimate aspect of my psychology. I simply can't, and I won't.

And I cannot fully respect anyone who does.

"Number of alpha doctors I've met: Zero."

Making lots of money in field where you do something like saving lives does add significantly to ones alpha score. It's not the pinnacle, but still...

"Number of (successful) alpha lawyers I've met: Zero."

Where have you been living? Many lawyers are successful because of their alphaness. Of course this applies only to certain segments, like trial lawyers where one needs to be an aggressive SOB.

Personal story:

A couple of years ago when I was considering law school more seriously, I was at a party. There was a girl there to whom I was explaining my plans. (Kacy, I'm talking about Silvia). She wasn't a close friend, but she knew me well enough to have a feel for my personality. In the middle of this, she kind of startled and said something to the effect of "What? YOU? A lawyer?" For a moment I suspected what I most feared about myself, but paid it no mind, so I continued on. When I further explained that I was favoring a field like intellectual property and patent law, she looked sort of "relieved" and reassured me, saying something to the effect of "Oh. Oh. Yes, well, yes you could do THAT, I thought you were talking about like a trial lawyer or something." Meaning "REAL lawyer", I suppose.

Remembering that incident still frosts my ass.


"Number of alpha senators/congressmen I've met: Zero."

Are you kidding me? I see that in your mind, alpha = jock/thug.

"Richest man in the world: Bill Gates, the quintessential beta."

Yes, money counts for alot, but I will agree it can only do so much with a man who is frail, nerdy and meek.

I remember my man Jackie Tokeman, who, when confronted with the common retort that computer programmers make a lot of money, and so therefore have no trouble "getting" women, retorted, "Go to a party of computer programmers, then go to a party of lawyers. Compare their wives and get back to me."

"Alphas get women in the 20-30 age group. Other than that, betas rule the world."

LOL. Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?


Eric

Juries hate alpha trial lawyers and judges especially love to shut them down. Nobody wants to feel threatened, belittled, dominated, or put in their place, however subtlety it is done. Alpha behavior always causes hatred and resentment in others. People aren't totally stupid, they know on some emotional level what's going on. You can win the battle for a chick or two by AMOGing people, but you can never win the war. Social situations aren't Waterloo, they're Vietnam. You can't kill the enemy. Everybody you trashed on the way to the top will take potshots at you until the entire social well is poisoned and you come crashing right back down (if you ever get anywhere at all). It makes perfect evolutionary and psychological sense.

All of the good, respected trial lawyers I know are more beta than alpha. Not computer programmer dungeons and dragons beta (or omega), but they certainly aren't in-your-face captain of the football team alpha or yes, the jocks and thugs you see as the center of attention in clubs. The shitty trial lawyers who are legends in their own minds are usually alpha, but everyone else laughs at them behind their back and sabotages them in the rest of the legal community. The very well-known and respected lawyer I work with, for example, has two big cases pending right now. The lawyers on the two cases are called "Jackass" and "Asshole" respectively, which the rest of the office has taken to calling them as well, even in formal e-mails to each other. Guess how they got on that shit list? Alpha domination behavior.

Alpha -> Retaliation
Retaliation = Bad

<You can win the battle for a chick or two by AMOGing people, but you can never win the war.>
Who needs to win the war once you've had the spoils? And I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being serious.

<The lawyers on the two cases are called "Jackass" and "Asshole" respectively, which the rest of the office has taken to calling them as well, even in formal e-mails to each other.>

But not to thier faces, I'll bet.

You know, if I have to make a decision and I'm not sure which way to go... I'd rather err on the side of masculine than on the side of pussy any day of the week.

<Guess how they got on that shit list? Alpha domination behavior.>

Alphas only get called names behind their back by weak people. I'd be willing to bet that any lawyer who considers those two his or her equal (or lesser) doesn't feel the need to be subversive.

And I reject the notion that being alpha necessarily involves imposing your will on the weak, even if it seems to pan out that way most of the time.

"Who needs to win the war once you've had the spoils? And I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being serious."

If all you care about in life is sleeping with young women and winning chest-beating contests when they crop up, then alpha behavior does make sense. If you want to be respected professionally, retain real friends who would stick up for you when it really mattered, and not make hordes of enemies who spend every day wishing you would fail, then alpha behavior is counterproductive and reckless.

"But not to thier faces, I'll bet.

You know, if I have to make a decision and I'm not sure which way to go... I'd rather err on the side of masculine than on the side of pussy any day of the week.

Alphas only get called names behind their back by weak people. I'd be willing to bet that any lawyer who considers those two his or her equal (or lesser) doesn't feel the need to be subversive."

They probably wouldn't call them Jackass or Asshole to their faces, because they're professionals (despite the retaliation, which I don't engage in) and maybe a little intimidated as well, who knows. But that's exactly what I'm talking about. You can win the face to face battle, but you can't win the war because it happens behind closed doors when you aren't there to defend yourself and beat them down again. Once people see that they can't beat you in a mental chest-beating contest, they'll just use guerrilla tactics to socially sabotage you with others.

Think about it. You are a hiring manager conducting interviews for an important new management position in your company. After interviewing a very extroverted and reassuring guy, you talk with your coworker and he tells you that that guy is the biggest asshole in the world and would sell out the company in a second if it suited him. Another long-standing member of your staff overhears and agrees. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, and it makes no difference whether the interviewee or your coworker friend would win an alpha contest. All that matters is that he has been sabotaged behind the scenes because, for whatever reason, right or wrong, he made somebody resentful of him. I see this kind of thing happen all the time. I've seen it happen with students, teachers, engineers, lawyers, professors, you name it. It used to happen to me all the time too (no longer, since I stopped that kind of behavior).

The ideal number of enemies in professional life is zero. How to Win Friends and Influence People can make that happen, or come damn close trying. Alpha behavior, by contrast, will always win you at least as many enemies as you win friends, if not more. The popular position is to say, "Who cares, you'll always have people who don't like you because they are ___________ (weak, irrational, rude, abrasive). I don't need people like that. They'll never be of consequence." And the popular position usually gets people into severe trouble about which they haven't the foggiest idea as to how or why they are in it, other than bad luck or the supposed irrationality, weakness, or malcontentedness of others. Most people never make it to the big time socially or professionally, and that's exactly why. Or if alpha behavior does get anyone recognition (this is rare), it's usually the kind Mystery and even the congenial and more subtle Style get, complete with many enemies and rivals working against them and badmouthing them at every turn to anyone who will listen. Look at all of these pickup artists, they're all fighting with each other all the time, calling each other hacks, sabotaging each other. That's what being an alpha always leads to.

Handling something like a professional, likable person is not being a pussy, it's being smart. America is the alpha of the world, going around insulting people and beating people down...look at where that got us. The Swiss, by contrast, will deal with anyone and do it with a smile. How many wars have they gotten into lately and what's their standard of living like? Zero, the best in the world, respectively. I think they'd probably have a good chuckle from behind the wheel of their Mercedes Benz if an American career soldier in full fatgues called them pussies from a barracks computer in between drills.

"And my own personal quest has not been so much one of learning to impose my will on others as it is learning to never have anyone elses will imposed on me."

And that... is why you fail.

"So can we fault alpha's for being naturally wired to deal with irrationality? You may be saying to yourself "But they don't deal with it via rational means!" True, but they deal with it. We don't. "

Well put.


Eric

"And that... is why you fail."

Well, in all fairness, I did follow up by saying "I'm not sure you can have one without the other."

But I still am not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that in order not to be a beta one must deliberately impose their will upon others, whether appropriate or not?

Take this scenario:

Man is in a long line. Guy cuts in line way ahead of Man.

Man A would step out of line, approach guy, and tell guy he had exactly 3 second to get to the back of the line if he wanted to keep all of his teeth.

Man B would step out of line, approach guy, and say "I don't think so", and would not relent until guy gets to the back of the line, even if it meant a full-blown scrap. Although Man B doesn't really want it to go that far, he's more than willing to take it to that level.

Man C would step out of line, approach the guy, and tell the guy he should go to the back of the line. Guy stands his ground. Man C then goes back to where he was grumbles about what an asshole guy is.

Man D would stay where he was and yell "Hey! No cutting the line!"

Man E would stand there quietly and just be pissed about it. He might even rationalize to himself that violence is wrong or that he shouldn't be a complainer or some such horseshit.

Man F would think to himself "What's the point? It's not like one extra person adds to my wait time significantly. I'm not in a hurry anyway."

1) What is your assessment of each man in terms of alphatude/betatude?
2) What is your ethical evaluation of each man's action?
3) What can you say about each reaction in terms of survivability?
4) What would be your reaction to each man in terms of respect and general disposition? How would you feel about each of those men?