Hi there...I was wondering why homosexuality is considered to be a sin? I was reading a post on one of the websites, someone was asking about homoseuxality and one of the repliers wrote back mentioning that it was a sin to be gay. I don't have anything against gay people, and I think they do not have a choice in the matter. Some people I know (theyre all religous) think people chose to be gay. One cannot simply wake up one morning and say..."hmmm I think I'd like to hook up with the same sex from now on". I personally think they are born that way, "but didnt God create man?" Gay people are usually stuck in the closet for a long time....they do not feel comfortable with their sexuality, so if they "CHOSE" to be gay...why are they ashamed???? They apparently "CHOSE" to be gay....why hide it?....So can anyone give me answer as to why God created a sin? And isnt he suppose to love us no matter what?

I don't believe being gay is something that you choose. As long as you treat each other with respect and kindness, that is what matters.

nope

So do you believe pedophilia is not something people choose and they're born like that - to want to have sexual relations with children, thus it's ok as long as they treat people with respect and kindness??

i think you're missing the point. pedophilia is wrong because those involved are not on an equal playing field, the pedophiles have the power while the children have none. something like this is not natural because the victim has no knowledge or say. homosexuality and homosexual relationships are mutual, where there is agreement. if u inflict on another person's ability to be themselves....that my friend is not natural. i know this will fall on deaf ears, but i just have to say im tired of all these religious fundamentalists, and their propaganda. if god is all knowing, and knows who's going to heaven and who's not, why did he create people he already knows are going to hell?

good point. With pedophilia one is sick and the other is the victim however with homosexuality both are sick. But both examples are equally beyond natural. My point was that such acts are sins and unnatural, but because we live in a so called democratic society people have convinced the masses that what they do is normal. It isn't normal, these people are sick - literally sick in the head with a disease from satan. Because these people have gone to extreme lengths in sinning, now their sin of committing homosexuality is something minor and normal. This is the way of the sinner - the more they sin the more their sins seem so small.

God knows what is in your own selves. He knows you more than you know yourself to the extent that He knows in your heart is a disease of disbelief even though you may think you are a believer.

God created us with choice and desires - He gave us free will. So why do you find it hard to understand how God would know who is destined to hell and who isn't. He created you with the choice and He knows that in some of His servants hearts is the desire to disobey.

It is one of God's attributes to know what is going to happen before it happens. God did not create a person to go to hell - He created him with desire and choice. But God knows what is in the hearts of His servants.

Why did God create homosexual animals? Did He want to make sick animals? Are homosexual animals all going to go to hell?

LOL... i think maybe you made a statement thinking there was no answer. The issue about homosexuality is whether it is natural or not. Also this issue is in regards to HUMAN BEINGS. Although it may be better for you if your were an animal, your not. What is natural for animals is different to what is natural for human beings. If it is natural for animals to have homosexual behavior then let it be, but it isn't for humans and there is no scientific evidence to prove it.

Also animals don't go to heaven or hell they just turn into dust - something you might be wishing for yourself if you don't obey your Creator.

The more I read about all these religions and religious beliefs and how contradictory they all are, the more I'm coming to believe that we all just die and turn to dust.

Religion looks like a make up excuse to calm the human mind. Although I might think otherwise if someone can tell me what created God? If no one has an answer to that, then it's no different than just saying what created the Earth and answer no one created it, it just is.

I’m starting to THINK along those lines with you too anon. We can prove for a fact that us humans and animals do decompose and turn to “dust” after death, but those religions can’t prove to us that we go to a heaven or hell.

What created god?... I’m sure they will have another stupid story or excuse for that as well.

No story. How can the one who is The Creator be created??

The One True God is the Creator not the created and He is the Everlasting.

"Allah! There is no god but He,
Al-Hayy (the Ever-living), Al-Qayyum (the Self-subsisting, Eternal).
No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.
His are all things in the heavens and on earth.
Who is there that can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?
He knoweth what appeareth to His creatures as before or after or behind them.
Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth.
His Kursi doth extend over the heavens and the earth,
and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them.
He is Aliyy (the Most High), Al-Adhiim (the Supreme in glory)." (Quran 2:255)

Quran: Al-Baqarah

2: 1. In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

2: 2. Alif, Lam, Mim.

2: 3. This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

2: 4. Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what WE have provided for them.

2: 5. And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee and that which was revealed before thee and they have firm faith in the hereafter.

2: 6. It is they who follow the guidance from their LORD and it is they who shall prosper.

2: 7. Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.

2: 8. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.

2: 9. And of the people there are some who say, `We believe in Allah, and the Last Day;' while they are not believers at all.

2: 10. They would deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive none but themselves; only they perceive it not.

2: 11. In their hearts was a disease, so Allah has increased their disease, and for them is a grievous punishment because they lied.

2: 12. And when it is said to them, `Create not disorder in the earth,' they say `We are only promoters of peace.'

2: 13. Beware ! it is surely they who create disorder, but they do not perceive it.

2: 14. And when it is said to them, `Believe as other people have believed,' they say, `Shall we believe as the fools have believed ?' Remember ! it is surely they that are the fools, but they do not know.

2: 15. And when they meet those who believe, they say, `We believe;' but when they are alone with their ring-leaders they say, `We were only mocking.'

2: 16. Allah will punish their mockery and will let them continue in their transgression, wandering blindly.

2: 17. These are they who have bartered away guidance for error, but their traffic has brought them no gain, nor are they rightly guided.

2: 18. Their case is like the case of a person who kindled a fire, and when it lighted up all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in thick darkness, they see not.

2: 19. They are deaf, dumb and blind; so they will not return.

2: 20. Or, it is like a heavy rain from the clouds, wherein is thick darkness and thunder and lightning; they put their fingers into their ears because of the thunder claps for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the disbelievers.

2: 21. The lightning might well nigh snatch away their sight; whenever it shines upon them, they walk therein; and when it becomes dark to them, they stand still. And if Allah had so willed HE could take away their hearing and their sight; surely Allah has the power to do all that HE wills.

2: 22. O ye men ! worship your Lord WHO created you and those before you, that you may guard against evil.

2: 23. WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to Allah, while you know.

2: 24. And if you are in doubt as to what WE have sent down to OUR servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers besides Allah, if you are truthful.

2: 25. But if you do it not - and never shall you do it - then guard against the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for the disbelievers.

2: 26. And give glad tidings to those who believe and do good works, that for them are gardens beneath which flow streams. Whenever they are given a portion of fruit therefrom, they will say, `This is what was given us before,' and gifts mutually resembling shall be brought to them. And they will have therein pure mates, and therein will they abide.

2: 27. Allah disdains not to give an illustration - as small as a gnat or even smaller. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord, while those who disbelieve say, `What does Allah mean by such an illustration ?' Many does HE adjudge by it to be in error and many by it does HE guide, and none does HE adjudge thereby to be in error except the disobedient,

2: 28. Who breaks the covenant of Allah after having established it, and cut asunder what Allah has bidden to be joined, and create disorder in the earth; it is these that are the losers.

2: 29. How can you disbelieve in Allah ? You were without life and HE gave you life, and then HE will cause you to die, then restore you to life, and then to HIM shall you be made to return.

2: 30. HE it is WHO created for you all that is in the earth; then HE turned towards the heavens, and HE perfected them as seven heavens; and HE has perfect knowledge of all things.

I AM WHO I AM!

El Diablo.

Yaawwn!! Boring La ilaha… like it says in one of your quotes, it’s just a book, it is not proof there is a heaven or who created your god. Sweet dreams.

Yes, thanks for all that information, it is pretty clear.

I understand that God created everything, the only question I have that is not answered by your words is what created God?

If you believe in creation, then what created your creator?

Simple question… and without quoting pages of meaningless mumbo jumbo from a book… ANSWER IT!

How can He be THE CREATOR if He was created? How can He be GOD if there is something else that created Him??

Its like when people worhsip idols and believe their idols are mediators between them and God, or when they make prophets or pious people gods and mediators for them. The question is asked - how can u worship something u created, or worship someone who was created or ask for help from something that cannot help itself? What type of gods are they?

Maybe if you understood the concept of God - What it is to believe in a supreme, omnipotent and omniscient God, you wouldn't bother to ask such a question.

If one really believed in One True God why would they bother to wonder who Created Him. If there was such a question to ask, and if God really did have a creator, then He would no longer be a god and rather we should then worship the one who created him.

Its like when christians worship Jesus. Why worship that which was created by something greater? Why woship someone who also worshipped someone?? Why worhsip Jesus when you could worship the one whom Jesus worshipped. What sort of god is that who worhsips another god??

So what, are we going to have a continuous pattern?? Worhsip a god who worships a god who worships a god who worships a god....


The problem for you people is that you have been fooled by the dillusion of this temporary life. The problem is not mine but yours.

Let it be that you don't believe in your Creator and the Hereafter. Let it be that you believe that you live then die and turn into dust. Let it be that you believe you came into this world with no purpose and will leave with no purpose.

My belief gives me pure contentment and peace in life. Everything that i do benefits myself. I do not do things to benefit God because nothing i can do will benefit or decrease the Kingdom of God in any way. All that i do benefits myself.

So live your life of sadness, discontentment and depression. You live a life of no understanding - bad things happen to you and you wonder why? You live a life always questioning and searching - wishing you could have answers. But there are answers, you just choose not to see them. Live your life wondering why your here...live it to the most thinking you are satifying your soul even though nothing you do satisfies it. and then DIE.. Live your life just waiting for death to approach u. You think you know everything and that it is so easyer to believe there is no god then to believe there is. Then tell us when death will approach you>??

And after all of that... lie in the grave to turn into dust.

You see, the difference between us is that in taking this belief i live a happier life. So say we both believe we live happy lives and are pleased with what we have. Then when we go to the graves.. WHO IS THE ONE REALLY LET DOWN??

If there is really no god and no hereafter, then it doesn't matter because i lived a happy life. But if there is, WHO IS THE ONE WHO REALLY LOOSES??!!

What will you do when death approaches you and your in the grace an discover that there is a God and that the hereafter is a reality and for eternity you will abode in the Hellfire??? ....Obviously NOTHING because this life is it - NO MORE CHANCES

{Arguing in it with one another, they will say, 'By Allah, we were plainly misguided when We equated you with the Lord of all the worlds. It was only the evildoers who misguided us and now we have no one to intercede for us; we do not have a single loyal friend. If only we could have another chance then we would be among the believers!' There is certainly a Sign in that, yet most of them are not believers. }(Surat ash-Shuara, 96-103)

The funny thing is that (from my experience only), I've met a number of athiests who seem to be the happiest people in the world. Not only that, they're better behaved, far better, than so many religious people who say one thing and conduct their lives in a much different way.

Maybe that's why the percentage of athiests seem to be going up in many western Europe countries. They're spending less time alla la la lala-ing, and more time doing constructive actions in their lives that help others.

My dear Muslim friend,
I am not an Atheist. Why substitute one unviable system of beliefs for another? I believe in nothing.

You God botherers make some pretty wild assumptions about unbelievers. I am neither unhappy nor unfulfilled. My Life is quite satisfactory thank you. The only thing that really annoys me, is the arrogant assumptions drawn by the religious. Did I mention intolerance of others, that do not share their particular version of the TRUTH.

I do not waste time in the pursuit of "happiness" whatever that is. Happiness is one of those undefined things. Once you come close to achieving it, you uprate your expectations. Therefore you are unhapppy again. No the better aim is for a reasonable degree of satisfaction with things.

My life has turned out OK without the help of your various Gods thank you. Through sheer hard work I am moderately well off. By getting plenty of exercise, I am reasonably fit and healthy still. And through sheer luck rather than goood management, i think, my children have turned out to be responsible citizens.

A vision of Hell I like, is one where all you religious paople get to prate at each other endlessly, enternally, and ceaselessly.

May the Bluebird of Happiness crap on your window ledge......Ralph.

No problems. Keep talking until you reach the grave. Leave your arguments until then. By Almighty God, nothing you people can say amuses me in anyway.

Just wait till death approaches you... Like i said, who is the one who really looses if there is a god and there is a hereafter????

The funny thing is that there's no God and no hereafter yet we argue and fight wars, killing each other in the name of God.

Funny isn't it!

My Muslim friend,
you illustratew my point. Man was not made in God's image. You have made your God in your image.

Your faith by your own admission is little more than an Insurance Policy. Obviously you have a God you is so stupid as to be taken in by such nonsense. If I were to have a God he would have to be at least as intelligent as me. Preferably millions of times so.

Oh ye of little faith......Ralph.

The muslim thinks God hasn't figured out what she's really thinkin.

Ralph....Certainly I salute you for you belief. Its does makes a load of sense that trees grow by chance and man live and die by the sword.

Alas! Life is vanity, vanity of vanities.

Fundamentalist

That is just it Anon,
The answer is vanity. to be more pecise our own ego as a species.

Because we refuse to accept that we are only another life-form, that lives and dies like any other. We invent this whole mythology to salve our egos.

1. We are made in God's (or Gods') image.

2. We don't just die. We go to Heaven or Hell, or are reincarnated into another life. Depends on which mythology (religion) you subscibe to.

3. We then achieve eternal life.

A better aim in my view, is to accept ourseles for what we are. Then try to do ones very best for our own species, for that ensures the survival and prosperity of future generations. I hate to tell you this, but your children are the only immortality you are ever likely to achieve.

Regards......Ralph.

Anon, it makes a lot of sense what you're basically telling us, in other words that God exists just by chance-that no one made Him (and he's a HIM rather than a she), no one did that, God just happens to be here and made in Man's image.

Now who ever woulda made those decisions on what shape and form to make God in?

Hello beautiful people.
I am very much pleased to take this time to air my view after reading all your impressive arguments in this discussion. I am not good in this kind of expressing my inner feelings (faith). I am just one of those( what do you call) uneducated rural town boy.

Firstly i would like to let you all know that I get my wisdom to make important decisions from the biblical principals of life. As you all know that if there is no higher authority there is no law. We all submit to auhorities and laws no matter where you go or live, muslim or christian, atheist...etc.
Brothers, if there is no law and authority we will all be bastards, just like animals. There will be no marriage, mother will be sleeping with anyone she wishes to, same as the father. Chaos, thats it! Thats your hearts desires. No body qestions the authority.

You are lucky to live in a world where at least there is peace, love, happiness.

Do not question the authority of God.

But,I have something to tell you, as you have already qestioned, I would like to tell you to live that till you die, and like the story of Lazarus and the rich man, when you are there, you can ask Him yourself.Because God is the final authority.

Love you all.
DOF

It is one thing to follow Christian principles - which incidentally, are better defined as the high principles of humanity than principles restricted to any one religion.

It is another thing to believe in a God that we're supposed to believe "just is" yet are supposed to not accept that maybe the whole universe and our selves "just are".

I agree with Ralph that the whole God myth is just something to make our minds comfortable, to pretend that someone who looks just like us also looks after us and will erase any horrors we have on earth.

It's all bull**** but that's not to say we shouldn't follow those basic principles of humanity. Because living those principles make our lives happier in the end as well as the lives of those around us.

In PNG we have it ass backwards. We preach God and Jesus like robots yet very few of us actually live the 10 commandments.

Infact the ten commandments were not there to make one perfect, it was the school master telling you what is wrong and what is not. Wonder if its worth living now because, if we came from nothing, than we end up with nothing. THe world around us is just there by chance, the birds, the trees, water and fish under the sea and the world......Its mind boggling to imagine a world without a deity.

If you do not believe that there is a god, I think committing Suicide is the best solution

Wonder if its worth living now because, if nothing created God, but He just came from nothing, than we end up with nothing. THe world around us is just there because of a God who just exists by chance. The birds, the trees, water and fish under the sea and the world......Its mind boggling to imagine a world with a deity who looks like us but no one created Him, He just is. I mean nothing in the universe just "is", something created everything. So God created us and He created the Earth, so something or someone must have created God too.

If you believe that nothing or no one created God but God just popped into existence for no reason at all, I think committing Suicide is the best solution

Mate you have a freedom of choise, either to believe there is a God or Not is all your call, as for killing yourself,its the cowards way of eascaping life, also its a 1 way ticket to HELL, yu laik traim go ahead its your call mate.
Heaven and Hell is REAL- God and Satan is real, choose who you want to serve, now and eternity: Yu Yet Now.

To find your answers, go to the story of creation in the bible. Remember God said 'I am the alpha and the omega' meaning 'I am the begining and the end'. Do not be conned by the world because 'God loves you as you are' Please speak to a believer who can sit with you and talk through your thoughts. I suggest we find our answers about God in his book (the Bible) rather than asking what the world says about God because the world does not know God.

I'll call you a 'seeker' and I am praying for you brother or sister that God will speak to your heart.

Believer in God

No one is questioning whether or not there's a God that I can see, at least on this thread.

They are questioning:
-the confusion that God would allow natural homosexual behaviour in animals (apparently well documented) but not allow it in humans (which was the original topic of debate). How could it be 'natural' in one instance but 'sinful' in another, and are there other examples of other kinds of behaviour that are 'normal' in animals but 'sinful' in humans?
-the idea that God just "is" rather than God coming from some way or somewhere, or made by some thing. In other words, how could God just "be".

guys,

you guys are extremely intelligent. very clever and articulate. supposing this "is" a just, fair, moral and good God, then i guess you guys a smarter than "him". and if there is none, im sure with such an interlect, i or rather the world would elevate you fellows to be the "gods".
are you guys looking for the evidences of "His" existance or His love? Why would a bunch of intelligent people like you go down so low to the gays/lebians and animals to measure up?

cheers fellas,

wantok

Who or What created God?

our questions, no matter how "best" only reflects our limitations. as the scripture says "His ways are higher than ours..." somethings are not just within our capability to comprehend.
Just like dog cant laugh and pig cant "reverse" so are our questions "who created God?" He is the "self-existing one and all life comes forth from Him...though my limited mind cannot comprehend fully what that may mean. just because it requires a "mother" and a "father" to creat "me" does not mean that God can be squessed into our bottles nad containers.
Please live God where He belongs.

concerned X'ian

Bullcrap!! Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice!!

Everyone is a sinner, so gays may be sinners but no more than anyone else even when we're babies we are sinners we are born sinners.


Poll shows most Americans believe gays cannot change their orientation

By Taylor Gandossy

(CNN)-- After five years of trying to date girls and to conform and conceal his sexuality, 18-year-old Steven Field told his friends and family that he was gay.

"I wasn't being honest to myself," Field, now 25, said of his closeted high school years in the suburbs of Chicago, Illinois.

Being gay was natural for him, Field, who lives in Washington, said in a Thursday phone interview. "I didn't choose to be gay anymore than straight people choose to be straight."

To those who would disagree with him, Field said, "You don't choose who you love."

Field is not alone in thinking that sexual orientation is a fixed element of a person. Whether homosexuality is innate or whether it is acquired -- the age-old nature versus nurture debate -- has long shaped the political and social discussion over gay rights.

Over the years, the genetically based argument has found increasing support among Americans, according to polls. More and more people now believe that homosexuality is a permanent, immutable part of a person, much like fingerprints or eye color.

According to a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Wednesday, 56 percent of Americans believe that gays and lesbians could not change their sexual orientation even if they wanted to do so -- the first time that a majority has held that belief regarding homosexuality since CNN first posed the question nearly 10 years ago.

The sampling error for the results is plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Six years ago, 45 percent of Americans responding to a CNN/USA/Gallup Poll said gays and lesbians could not change their sexual orientation. And in 1998, the number was 36 percent, according to a CNN/Time poll.

The latest poll results affirmed what many gay and lesbians see as a shift in attitude across the country toward homosexuality. Even in the face of state legislation that denies gays the right to marry or to form civil unions, more Americans are now accepting of homosexuality, gays and lesbians say.

For the Rev. Mel White, the founder and president of faith-based gay rights group Soulforce, the poll results were a "tremendous relief."

"The poll is such good news," White said Thursday. "Over half of America thinks we don't have to be healed from a sickness; suddenly we are OK as we are."

God created Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve

There is no same sex in other animal kingdom, but where did man get his idea of homosexuallity?
It must be from Devil himself. Hopefully you can learn from Sodom and Gomorroh.

God created man wondefully and was good in his sight,he made man from soil and breath the breath of life into him, women was made from man side to be his helper,
Devil came decieved mankind, he has done now to spoil the model God creation to invent lies (for he is the father of lies)to tell men that they are homos,thats what some men believed and acted that way by lustful desires.
When talking about rights, Yes you have the God given right as a man and women to be what we are.Not to have two same sex having sex, that when Lust of the flesh come to satify your flesh.
The bible clearly say,lies,adulteres,homosexuas,murderes and etc: shall not herite the kindom of god,that means straight to HELL mate.
Forget about so call human rights,these h/rights will pass away but the law of the Lord will be always there.
So tokim ol narapela lus tingting lo pasim pamuk na kisim Jesus lo laip bilong ol,em tasol em rot tru.........

Jesus Is Lord

What about the gay animal behavior that is being talked about in this thread. Did God sanction gay animal behavior but not gay human behavior or are the animals disobeying God's word and thus they will be condemned to hell?

I didn't even think animals went to heaven or hell but please correct me if I'm wrong. But I do believe that God made all the animals and their behaviors so much have made gay animal behavior.

Sounds like a reasonable question. Let's hear from some biblical scholars on this one.

Once again fundamentalist Christians demonstrate that their faith is mostly due to incredible ignorance.

Are animals being sinful towards God or did God bless this following gay behaviours:


Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
James Owen in London
for National Geographic News
July 23, 2004

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.

But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."
Sexual Gratification

On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."
The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.


Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.
Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."

But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.
In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open."

I guess gay animals can have normal sex too if politely asked otherwise how did this gay behaviour survive after the flood?

Are these animals being sinful or did God allow them to be homosexual??!?!!!!


Penguins Revive Debate of Homosexuality in Animals


By Julio Godoy*

At a German zoo, six endangered Humboldt penguins prefer mates of the same sex. Scientists debate whether this behavior has biological or social origins -- or both.

PARIS - At a German zoo, the behavior of six penguins that formed same-sex couples has revived the incipient scientific debate about the origins of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Biological or social?

When Heike Kuek, director of the zoo in Bremerhaven, in northern Germany, decided in late January to bring in female Humboldt penguins (Spheniscus humboldti) from a Swedish zoo, her intentions were -- biologically speaking -- understandable.

The Humboldt penguin is an endangered species. Today there are just 20,000 of these birds left, and most live along the Pacific coast of Chile and Peru. At the Bremerhaven zoo are 14 of them -- 10 males and four females -- as part of a European program to ensure protection of the species.

In theory, in a protected environment, the penguins should reproduce and multiply.

But the arithmetic of procreation occasionally runs into a twist: the 14 penguins formed seven pairs with the four females mating with four males and reproducing just once. The remaining six males formed three homosexual pairs, which in their fruitless attempts to produce offspring have attempted to incubate rocks that they have confused for eggs.

So Kuek decided to import four females, which were charged with attracting the males who had formed same-sex couples.

But the effort came too late. The Bremerhaven males ignored the female penguins from Sweden, and continued their homosexual behaviors.

Studies of the birds' sexuality suggest that the formation of a pair occurs many months before the end of the natural incubation period, in this case, at the end of the northern hemisphere winter.

''The relationship between our penguin pairs is very deep. Now we have to wait until the beginning of 2006 to see if they will form heterosexual couples,'' Kuek said in a conversation with Tierramérica.

Kuek's effort triggered a strong reaction from gay and lesbian groups around the world. From Austria to Australia, homosexual activists condemned what they considered illegitimate intervention in the sexual freedom of animals.

Beyond the protests, the experience could reinforce the biological thesis which suggests that homosexuality among animals is not a circumstance derived from the relative number of members of the opposite sex.

According to a study of sheep at the University of Oregon's school of medicine, in the U.S. northwest, animal sexuality could be determined -- among other variables -- by a network of nerves located in the hypothalamus (a region of the brain responsible for the production of several hormones), which conditions sexual behavior.

In the study published in 2004, physiologist Charles Roselli and his team said they discovered groups of brain cells that were different amongst the sheep and that showed a strong correlation with their sexual preference. Roselli dubbed this knot of nerve cells ''ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus, oSDN.

The team examined 27 adult sheep, four years old and of different breeds, raised on an agricultural research station in the northwestern state of Idaho. The sample included eight males who manifested heterosexual behavior, nine with homosexual behavior and 10 females.

The research determined that the oSDN of the males who preferred females was considerably larger and contained many more neurons than in the other 19 sheep.

''Ours and other similar studies strongly suggest that the sexual preference among animals is biologically determined,'' Roselli told a press conference. When he presented the report the physiology and pharmacology professor added, ''This possibility is also valid for humans.''

If that is true, the Bremerhaven penguins are homosexual, and even though the females brought in from Sweden show all their charm, their efforts will be futile.

However, research of other species implies that homosexuality could be a sort of survival strategy, determined by social factors.

A study of Japanese macaque females, who are bisexual and particularly promiscuous, illustrates this argument. The monkeys showed occasional homosexual preferences, but nevertheless make every effort to excite the males, while also competing with them for the sexual favors of other females.

According to Paul Vasey, psychology and neuroscience professor at the University of Lethbridge, in Canada, this behavior occurs especially when the females are faced with defenseless males.

The bisexual behavior of the macaque females is a strategy intended to excite the sexually inactive males, Vasey told Tierramérica.

He explained that during his research, published in 2002 in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, he manipulated the numeric relation of females with respect to male macaques in order to analyze the females' sexual preferences in function of the availability of potential mates of the opposite sex.

''I found that when the number of males is reduced, the homosexual behavior of the females increases,'' said the scientist.

According to Vasey, captivity -- like the case of the Humboldt penguins of Bremerhaven -- does not explain homosexual behavior. ''The evidence available to us suggests that the animals that show homosexual behavior in captivity also do so in the wild.''

There are numerous examples of homosexuality among animals. At the Central Park Zoo in New York City, two male penguins of the species Pygoscelis Antarctica, Roy and Silo, have been a couple for the past seven years, showing what experts refer to as the ecstatic sexual behavior typical to the species.

When the Central Park Zoo tried something similar to the experiment at Bremerhaven -- introducing female penguins in the same area as Roy and Silo in an attempt to change their sexual behavior -- the two males ignored them.

Like their ''cousins'' in Germany, Roy and Silo tried to incubate rocks in their nest. When the zoo provided them with an egg, they incubated it and hatched a female named Tango. Roy and Silo acted as perfect parents, taking care of Tango as if she were truly their offspring.

Based on these experiences, scientists believe that a more comprehensive theory of sexual selection among animals is needed, and should take into account social as well as biological aspects.


* Julio Godoy is an IPS correspondent.

Are you saying you an animal? Why compare yourself to an animal?

I beliieve the point being made is that if God did not approve of homosexuality he would not have made animals homosexual either, much less human beings.

Or is homosexuality an abomination only for humans, but for penguins God decided it was okay?

Geeez!

Human beings can distinguish the right from wrong and vise versa, animals can't. From that findings with penguins one can only conclude that Gays are animals.

Zoologists have concluded,
that there is acompletely new species of Penguin.

It is called the Buggarer Penguin. There is some debate as to how this species reproduces. There is a school of thought that suggests, it may have achieved asexual reproduction.

Regards......Ralph.

Ah yes,
the Buggarer Penguin. Sometimes known as The Oohmedoodle Bird.

This came about as a result of its distinctive call, as it climbs over the rocks of Antarctica. Probably something to do with the fact that it has a 16" penis and 4" legs. (40cm and 12cm respectively).

A word of warning. IT IS NOT SAFE TO BEND OVER TO TIE UP YOUR SHOELACES, ANYWHERE NEAR THIS SPECIES.

Tours...David.

The Ark had very confined space. With all them animals and humans living in very close proximity it is possible some animal-human sex too place too...

Noah em man nogut-ya!

Only in your head!

It is clearly established by science that there is gay behaviour in animals. That means the gay behaviour must go back to the Noah's ark. Animals have no way to judge right and wrong and God must have been pleased that they show gay behaviour sometimes, that's why he let them go on the ark with Noah and passed the gay tendences down to this very day.

.....passed down to who, may I ask? Hope you are not thinking it's down to humans as what human beings are doing these days is a choice to act in that filth - there is no gay or homosexuals...it is only a sexual act!

O boy! The boat was toasing, it was violently rocking, and outside both the people and animal perished. and the people inside were your more terrified and scared or their own lives. Too scared even to make love. There was niether sex nor the thought of it even in the ark. maybe when you are scared you enjoy sex!

keep fantasising man!

arkist

Confused, just because the world accepts it doesn't mean it is right....read in Lev Chapt 18 (esp verse 22)(not a bible scholar, maybe one can enlighten)-those are some of the laws that were passed down in the time of Moses...the Good Lord forbids such behaviours. Remember, where there is light, there is no darkness and the two do not go together! Don't let the devil deceive you.

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your Biblical quote, and will try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them because our Bible teachers are not confronting these puzzles in our minds. For example:

1). When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is that in PNG we cook pigs, not cows and when I've asked my wantoks that we should kill all our pigs and bring in cows intead, they say I'm stupid. Should I smite them?

2). I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3). I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24) and of course this is also a PNG tradition. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4). Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Sepiks, but not to Highlanders. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Highlanders?

5). I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Should we make proclamation throughout PNG that anyone working on the Sabbath will be killed in the name of peaceful Christianity?

6). A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is a abomination of Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Should we start leaving our shellfish on the beaches and waters as pretty decoration and cease eating them?

7). Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses and a lot of the papas in my village they also need glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? I'm always told by my fellow PNGBC students that I must follow the Bible literally.

8). Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. Because it is forbidden, I need to know: How should they die?

9). I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, so does this mean that all Christians in PNG should stay away from pigs, or should everyone in the community work together, each one armed with a fork, when putting the pig into the mumu then when we bring it out again? How do we move the pig once it is dead without touching the skin?

10). My uncle has a copra plot which has cocoa underneath. He clearly violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing a dress made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend-we read this on the label). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole village together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with all the people in PNG who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14).

I suspect you have studied these things much more extensively than I have. Please I beg you to explain these aspects of the Books of Leviticus and Exodus to all those who frequent this Faith forum.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging!

Your devoted fellow disciple
Mangi Levi
PNGBC

My dear Levite,
I have been bending my mind to one of your questions.

Why on Earth would you want to own an Highlander? Isn't your life difficult enough ALREADY? Or do you belive in self-flagellation, as atonement for your sins.

Hehe......Ralph.

LOL! Mangi Levi, thanks for that! Brought a smile to my dial indeed. Oh good old PNGBC eh, that church has got to be the most ridiculus church with all its rules. Follow what you know is right in your heart. The Holy Spirit will guide you.
I do believe however that Homosexuality will always be wrong no matter age we live in.

These rules are written in the Bible (supposedly inspired by your Holy Spirit) so I would’ve thought they apply to all Christain Churches, including yours. So why aren’t you “putting to death” all the homos you know and why can’t anyone answer Mangi Levi’s legitimate questions?

NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION!...WHY IS IT A SIN IF GOD CREATED MAN???....he created a sin???(gay people??)

Why are you wrecking your brain trying to think that people are born gay or rather God created gay people? There is NO such think as a homosexual, only a homosexual act. Homosexuals are people who CHOOSE to have sex with people of the same sex, but that is a sexual act, not what a person is. That act is a sin! God created Adam and Eve. If you could find the time, it will be worthwhile to read a few of these scriptures.(1 Thessalonians 4:3, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). I pray that the Good Lord will guide your thoughts, God bless.

God created sex to be enjoyed. God created Adam and Eve but he did not tell them not to be gay. He only told them not to eat from the tree of good and evil. Apart from that, He told them to enjoy EVERYTHING. It is man that has twisted things in the bible. Even the bible is written by men who claimed to know God's mind. I think people should feel free to live their lives however pleases them. If people want to have sex with other people of the same sex, they are simply using their God-given free will to and exercise their free of choice. All these bible quoting people are just self-righteous pharasees blinded by their own hatred and insecurities.

Let freedom reign!

That seems to fit the revelation that some animals naturally engage in gay sex. It's like God allowed them that option when he created them?

RIIIIGHT...I swear to god u r the most ignorant person Ive heard of....an ACT...homosexual ACT!....if they chose to...why do they quesetion their sexuality?...why do they hide their sexuality...HoW can someone chose to be gay?...if they hide in the closet for so long??...if they chose...why do they hide it????well....get over it...there is nothing wrong with gays....I personally think anyone who thinks being homosexual is a "sin" is a laughing stock...get over it...who people have relationships with is their business...not your business....at all! so shut the **** up....I thought God loved u no matter what....or is that bull**** too...thats the impression ur giving me....anyway....I hope gays get full rights one day...

Homosexuality is a sin and is not natural... that's why it's a sin.

People are not born to want to marry and have sexual relations with people of the same sex? There is NO primary scientific evidence to prove people are born gay.

Yes, there are people born with maybe more feminine or masculine genes - but it doesn't mean they have to go and have relations with people of the same sex.

Look at your bodies - your physical nature. IT ISN'T NATURAL. Homosexuality is just like celibacy- it stops reproduction.

Trust me, these people choose to be gay. Why? Because they know it is wrong. They know that it is a sin yet they continue to do it. That becomes a choice.

God created us with choice and gave us laws. It is our choice to obey or disobey.

Eg. God tells us it is a sin to murder. We can commit murder but does it means it's normal to do it. No - it means we chose to do it.

Sin exists as a means to test us.

This life is a TEST. Here are the laws here are the blessings. Now the choice is yours. Obey or disobey. Be grateful or ungrateful. Worship God alone or set up partners.

The test is that we have desires. But we have to overcome them for the sake of God. Why? To attain His bliss and Paradise in the hereafter and not His torment in the hellfire.

If there is an individual who feels an inclination towards people of the same sex that is his test. Everyone has their own tests. Maybe if i had that test it would be easy for me but not for him. But God knows us and tests us to what is relevant to us. This is something the gay person needs to overcome. It is from satan. Obviously it will be hard for the person, but life wasn't meant to be easy.

No test is ever meant to be easy. That is how one is determined on whether they are worthy of reward or not.

The problem is your religion or whatever mentality you've been brought up with.

God loving you so much that's why he died for your sins - or sent his son to die for your sins.. or whatever.

Thus you don't understand the purpose of this life.

The Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) said: “If you were to not commit sins, God would remove you and replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek Allah’s forgiveness, so Allah could forgive them.” [Sahîh Muslim (2749)]

What you should dwell on is that God is the Most Forgiving. We are created to sin, but God is waiting for us to return to Him in sincere repentance so He may forgive us.

God loves us, but we are His servants not His children.

God says in the Quran:

And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all). (5:18).

PEOPLE, do not think to high of yourselves. Humble yourselves. It is not God who works for you but you who works for God.

His is your CREATOR who is not in need of you but you who is in need of Him. So remember this and reflect on the purpose of life.

Why are you here and why were you created??

People choose to be gay?

LeVay (University of California, 1991) found that the INAH3 nucleus in the preoptic area of the hypothalamus which triggers male-typical sexual behaviour was much smaller in gay men and looked more like that in the brains of women. He went on to discover that the corpus callosum, which is bigger in men than in women, was bigger in gay men than in straight men. In 1992 Hamer (National Institute of Health, Washington DC) found evidence that a specific gene, carried on the maternal line, influenced sexual orientation in men.

So there's a lot of nature in it, as well as nurture.

Good Christians choose to be as ignorant as possible so they aren't faced with information like what you have posted, stuff which contradicts their beliefs.

The best way to hold onto Christian beliefs is to close eyes, ears and nose so no contradictory information can penetrate the brain, while simultaneously keeping the mouth open, yapping and yapping about Jesus as tears stream down the face.

I am a pastor and have found the above to be the best instructions to keep Christian people from any possibility of temptation or analysis.

Pastor Timothy

Although I am a Catholic, God made one man and one woman. But in this day and sge, people from all sexes would prefer to be of the same sex. Now, I'm not saying that gays and lesbians are a good thing, but if a person is comfortable with liking the same sex, then okay. Although some people would disapprove of it, if a man or a woman likes a man or a woman, its up to him/her. I have friends who LOOK gay, or is a lasbian, but sometimes they're totally the opposite.

And, by the way, gay people are very outgoing people. Well, that I know of.

Homosexual behavior is natural just like other primitive urges that are now being controlled by law [ eg payback killing].What can prevent u from lashing out on someone who slaps your daughter across the face?Isn't it a natural thing to follow your instincts.I washed my hands clean when it comes to homos.its their own feeling that does not hurt anybody so its 100% fine with me.Basically i think folks are scared becoz it threatens their beliefs on what a family should be and that it up hold society.This is the new millinium!Live and let live.gay or straight.Peace Out