MY FIRST POST (REGARDING 3-COLOR/GOLD PN ROC DIALS)November 8 2007 at 2:09 PM
|John (Login J_Mayer)|
from IP address 188.8.131.52
Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...
This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.
Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.
I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:
**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**
Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?
And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.
A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.
Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.
**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**
Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.
The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.
Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.
Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?
Does it really matter?
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- Welcome... - Richard Carver on Nov 8, 2007, 2:22 PM
- John, welcome to the forum... - delgado on Nov 8, 2007, 2:44 PM
- True... - John on Nov 8, 2007, 2:59 PM
- welcome to the board... - thesharkman on Nov 8, 2007, 3:56 PM
- Are you J Mayer, the Musician?......(nt) - K on Nov 8, 2007, 4:01 PM
- Hi, John, and welcome! Awesome first post and I admire a guy... - tomvox1 on Nov 8, 2007, 4:52 PM
- Great post..welcome to the fourm.. - Getorix on Nov 8, 2007, 5:18 PM
- (Revised my post)........To me its simple - clifW on Nov 8, 2007, 5:33 PM
- Nice to see you here, John... - NV on Nov 8, 2007, 5:51 PM
- Hey John - RolexWatchTime on Nov 8, 2007, 10:15 PM
- Maybe a dumb question but >>> - Reintitan on Nov 8, 2007, 11:32 PM
- Hi John.... - johan on Nov 9, 2007, 1:14 AM
- Thank you for this very interresting post. - stephane on Nov 9, 2007, 4:35 AM
- Hi John, nice to hear from you finally.. - Kevin O on Nov 9, 2007, 7:43 AM
- Hi John ... - Gatsby on Nov 9, 2007, 9:26 AM
- Red & Gold PN's - HRCusa on Nov 9, 2007, 10:30 AM
- Putting a Pin In It... - John on Nov 9, 2007, 12:02 PM
- Great First Post John! - NYCarrera on Nov 10, 2007, 7:41 AM
- Further discussion... - SM on Dec 22, 2011, 1:09 AM