Hi Guys... John Mayer here. Long time reader, first time poster. There are a few people on this board who can vouch for me...

This ROC PN debate is something that I've been involved in for a few months now, and I want to share my thoughts with you. Forgive me for not putting it in the post that's already started but I don't want this conversation to die out.

Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.

I want to discuss two things. The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.
I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either. Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s,
when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s? Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same
enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't
you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them? Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials? Why aren't these counterfeiters
firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?

And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)? Can you
say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of
how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not
present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.

Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do. You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these
changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession.
It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more
we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.

**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

Because Rolex says they are. And so do all the world's most respected collectors. ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known
to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic. What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves
authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you
can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all." Same
goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance
and value- is null and void.

___

Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors. Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes
them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has
serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

Does it really matter?

...hell of a first post!

I can follow your logic and I can see where Rolex Service and/or authentication is important but we do have to remember that Rolex themselves have made some clear mistakes, ie servicing watches with bad aftermarket dials. Or that sometimes a dial that has been refinished will still be service by Rolex since the dial is considered an "original" without attention to the refinishing part..

As for the Antiquorum.. that is a different story..

I am always a believer of doing your homework no matter who it comes from... Half of the fun is the learning part..

Anyway, nice to see you here...



http://www.DoubleRedSeaDweller.com

...but we're not talking about one watch with a refinished dial. This is a large number of watches that have been widely accepted in the marketplace for years. There's a difference. I'm a fan of the homework as well...

i can see your view, but if a RSC can service and send out a bogus milsub, what does that say about its credence as an authority of vintage rolex watches?

<* shark >>><

nt

Welcome to the Rolex World.

I am going to try and be as soft as possible, but your observations and your facts are all incorrect.

The only point I agree with you is when you say, "I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not". Unfortunately we are hoping beyond hope.

All the points you make have been answered and dealt with over a hundred times, but nevertheless I will deal with each of your points, point by point. Will post when I have a little time.

The problem here is "money and perceived value and heartache".

K

Ok here goes. First, you own them, probably paid a lot of money for them, and love them so much that as long as nobody can prove the dials to be 100% non Rolex, you would stick with them. You are not alone.

I think I have good eyes, and my eyes tell me that something is wrong with those dials. And so I conducted a microscopic investigation of the 3 Colour ROC PN dials, and published my findings and sent a report to Rolex Geneva.






JM:-Let me first say that though we don't know FOR CERTAIN that these watches aren't counterfeit, I think I speak for everyone when I say I sure hope they're not. That would remove some really coveted pieces from the table.
***Watches are not counterfeit, it is the dials.

I want to discuss two things.
The first is that these dials are probably not counterfeit, and second, it doesn't matter if they're not.

I wish I could tell you why I think these dials are real, but only a dealer who held one of these watches
in the '70s can say for sure. The rest of us CANNOT either.

Now for the breakdown:

**WHY THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT COUNTERFEIT**

JM:-Ask yourself this - why do all 3-color PN dials ALWAYS sit on watches that ROCs are PERIOD CORRECT on? If someone were counterfeiting these in the late '80s/early '90s, when there wasn't nearly as much scrutiny by collectors, why weren't ROCs popping up on 6241s 6239s?
***From what EK tells me, you are a pretty serious person, but man someone has been spinning you fairy stories, and you guys have been adding up one and one and coming up with 3. It makes no difference if the dials were on a period watch or not, you are asking yourself the wrong questions.

JM:-Did everyone who caught a counterfeit dial share the same enthusiasm for the minutae of collecting watches? And if you were going to counterfeit a dial, making it look convincing enough to fool people for 20 years, wouldn't you clone a dial that you knew EXISTED? And wouldn't you keep making them?
***No I would not. If I did, we would not be having this conversation today!!

JM:-Why aren't non-PN 6263s magically turning into ROC panda dials?
***Cant be done. Your thinking is beginning to frighten me.

Why aren't these counterfeiters firing the machine back up? Did they get the dials perfect, make 300 and then shut the operation down?
***This is the perfect counterfeiters operation. Make a limited number and close down shop.

JM:-And in the case of the red Daytona, which Rolex CONFIRMS were made, have you seen any more watches floating out in the world than were reportedly made (8)?
***Rolex geneva have not confirmed this fact. Rolex have NEVER verified any of these dials, nor will they ever do so!!!

Can you say you can account for the wherabouts of 4 different red dials? of 3? You'd have seen more than 8 if these dials were being knocked off. You have to assume the mindset of how greed works to understand that it's just not present here.

A word about the distinguishing characteristics of PN dials; identifying the traits that make the dial 100% authentic is not always a way of deeming the watch inauthentic if they're not present. This is a big problem lately, in my opinion.
***I dont understand this, just does not make any sense.

JM:-Also, NOBODY on this board or beyond can say with certainty what Rolex DID and DIDN'T do.
***I think one can apply this logic on most vintage goods of uncertain origin, so its nothing new.

You have to understand manufacturing to get a sense of just how mundane some of these changes were. If a dial manufacturer sent Rolex 4 different variants to choose from, and Rolex ordered 1000 units of one, they still had 3 other variants in their possession. It's completely within reason that they would have used these dials on the watches that were sent out. I know it doesn't completely apply here, but it's an example of how much more we as collectors attach value to everything Rolex did than Rolex themselves.
***Where did you get these stories from?

The questions you should be asking yourself are:-

-Why did all these ROC dials orignate from The States? Every single one, no exceptions!!

-Why do all these dials have the same milky soft white luminous 5 minute markers?

-Why do all these dials have exactly the same configurations as the fake 2 colour white ROC dials?

-Why is the quality of the SINGER printing on the back of these dials very poor and different to all other Rolex dials.

-Why is the quality of the font printing on these these dials very poor and different to all other Rolex dials under a microscope

-Why have we not located one person of these dials who was the original purchaser at a Rolex Agent? I have original owners for the original 2 colour white ROC dials, original owners for the non oyster pn dials, original owners for the 3 colour ROC PN dials, but non for the others including the Oyster Gold ones!!

-Why have the great majority of these dials ended up at Sale at Antiquorum and not at other Auctions?



**WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY'RE NOT AUTHENTIC**

JM:-Because Rolex says they are.
*** Rolex have never said these dials are authentic.

JM:-And so do all the world's most respected collectors.
***Only the present owners say that. I think you are over using the word, "All". The only collectors who wish they were original are the collectors who hang around Ed Delardo Collectors Club. A place where the blind lead the blind. All the collectors I know, would not touch these dials, do not own them, and if they did own them have now got them out of their collection.

JM:-ROC dials are in every major book, have been sold in auction countless times, and have been known to have service papers with them. (This includes the red Daytona.) I have a service paper from Rolex that states that my red Daytona is authentic.
***Services papers do not make a dial original. Auctions sales do not make a dial original. A write up in a book does not make a dial original. As an example. One of Italy's most respected collector is writing a book, title is unconfirmed but on the lines of 100 Best Rolex Watches, you will not find any of these dials in that book, but you find every other Rolex PN Daytona configuration. He has spent the last 3 years traveling the world, meeting collectors and taking pictures. Maybe some of the watches that have passed thru my hands may make it into that book.

JM:-What will it take to deem it inauthentic?
***if the director of Rolex Geneva says to me that he confirms these dials are genuine with documentary evidence of the original art work of the dials, and shows me exactly the same dials they have in their stock rooms, and then confirms all this in writing, and signs the paper infornt of my eyes, then I will believe it, and retire a happy man.


The same thing it would take for a white or black 3-color. A letter from Rolex stating that they're not. If we're all going to think of service papers as added value because it proves authenticity, then we have to be consistent with that. Otherwise the marketplace should not add a premium for them, and buyers shouldn't believe them.

The same goes for Antiquorum. If you're going to believe that Antiquorum can sell 2 dozen of the same counterfeit watch, then that renders the auction house invalid and you can no longer charge more for a watch that "went at auction for" a high dollar amount. I'd say to you "yah, but they also sold 3-color ROC dials, so you can't go by that at all."

Same goes for "the book", whether by Patrizzi or Mondani. No more being able to say that something's featured in a book. Because now the service the book was providing - provenance and value- is null and void.

___

JM:-Do the 3-Color and gold ROC dials really exist? Yes. I own several. I've seen them with my own eyes and I count 3 colors.
***You see what I mean. Only owners, say they are original!!!You owning them and seeing them, do not make them original. I have probably seen and handled more 3 colour ROC and gold ROC dials then most people. Fortunately, I have never bought or sold one. I could have, and made millions doing it. This is what you guys don't understand. Giving childish replies like, "I believe in doing my homework" or back patting like, "Great Post John" and non committal replies are form guys who will always sit on the fence and watch the views.


JM:-Are they authenticated by Rolex? They have been. That makes them up to the high standards we all respect and admire about the company when it comes time to sell a piece with a service paper. Okay. Let's review: they exist and Rolex has serviced (authenticated) and released them from the Rolex building - meeting Rolex's immeasuarably high quality control standards, as the company has extolled for so many years.
***These dials have never been officially authenticated by Rolex Geneva.

Is the dial, on a molecular level, one that was manufactured in 1967? Will we ever know?

JM:-Does it really matter?
***For me this is the most important question. To me and to most important collectors, it matters greatly.

These dials have taken a life form of their own, and there is a market out there for them. This is the one occasion, where a non Rolex dial is being accepted in some quarters are original over a period of its life time. These dials have a following, and a value. But Rolex they are NOT.

K

A Scan is worth a 1000 words.

1st scan is the SINGER printing on all 3 colour ROC dials, and ROC Gold Dials, and fake 2 colour ROC dials.
No Exceptions.

2nd Scan is the SINGER printing on all original 2 colour ROC dials and all Rolex PN Dials made by SINGER.
No Exceptions.

And of course the same goes for your theory that they are not genuine. Until Rolex confirms these ROC dials are phony, it is still just a theory no matter how well researched, strongly laid out & stridently defended.
T.

P.S. If the director of Rolex Geneva does confirm that these dials are fakes, will you still retire? Think of the high note you'd be leaving on...

...with a good strong POV backed up by some serious expertise. You make some excellent points for sure.

Let me just preface my reply by saying I sure as hell do not have any answers on this issue and similarly I have not made up my mind one way or the other. Like you, I only wish Rolex would be more helpful on issues like these but that ain't gonna happen so we collectors (using that term very broadly here to include dealer/collectors, as well) are left to figure it out for ourselves. That is both the fun and frustration of Vintage Rolex, as I'm sure you're well aware.

Now to the points you make...

First off and just to clarify, AFAIK all 6241s & 6239s are pump pusher Cosmos, so they would never have an "OYSTER" dial of any kind of layout because Rolex did not put "OYSTER" on any Daytona dials until the screw down pusher era...although I'm sure there are pretty good fakes of those non-Oyster dials, as well. In any case, we can give any potential counterfeiter the benefit of the doubt and say he knows his Rolex minutiae and did not willy-nilly make ROC dials and stick them in non-Oyster Cosmographs (and he may have just made the dials; someone else may have put them in the actual watch, maybe without knowing their provenance at all). If these dials are fake, they were designed to fool the best in the business. And if they are fake, they have been doing that for a long time.

Since there are, of course, 3-color pump pusher PN dials (non-"OYSTER" text), it would be relatively easy for a counterfeiter to use those as a template when "creating" a 3-color OYSTER dial. Not saying they did that, just hypothesizing on where a forger could get his instruction manual and inspiration. And since white ROC PN dials have not been thrown under the bus in this authenticity debate, that would be another place where a forger could look for inspiration.

A perfect illustration of these distinct dials is this photo from the Archive of a 6241 w/3-color black non-Oyster PN dial and a 6263 w/2-color white ROC PN dial:



(photo by Anonymous)

Now if, as the doubters would have it, Rolex never made a 3-color ROC PN dial, well that would make it pretty rare, right? I mean if you could have all that lovely red on a PN dial and have it in a screw down pusher case, that would make it the ne plus ultra of Newmans, wouldn't it? We Rolex fiends love a bit of red on a dial after all. I think we have our forger's motivation to make a dial that never existed (if the forger of ROC dials exists himself, of course).

As for why he didn't keep making such sophisticated copies (if they were indeed not manufactured by Rolex), I can only posit that they wanted the market for PNs to remain strong and not flood it with so many "new" dials that the value of PNs would plummet. Art forgers try not to release too many "new" Monets on the market, I imagine.

I really have no idea about the Red "Ferrari" PN dials other than the fact that so many people in this hobby that I respect do not like them. I have never heard that Rolex has confirmed that they made 8 of these "prototype"/special order red dials. Can you elaborate on this contention?

I would add that Rolex does not really do dial authentication, so we have to take the fact that these Red PNs were "authenticated by Rolex" with a big grain of salt. As long as the back of the dial is correct for the watch and the rest of the watch is correct, as well, Rolex does not really care what's on the front. In that regard, I think it is highly plausible that authentic non-PN Daytona dials could have been used in making exceptionally high quality re-dialed counterfeit PNs that could fool even Rolex or the most savvy dealer or collector. A small sacrifice for the huge premium a PN would fetch over a standard Daytona, not to mention the premium a limited edition of 8 Red PNs in the world might (and did) achieve.

I agree with you 100% that comparing two styles of Rolex dials to each other does not really prove anything. There are so many legitimate variations (Mark I, II, III, IV, etc) that one could easily draw a false conclusion due to the inconsistencies between examples. As you have probably read below, the proponents of the "fake ROC dials theory" maintain that all authentic PN dial printing--white/black, 2-color/3-color, Oyster/non-Oyster, SS/Gold--never changed from 1964 until 1986. This would be because the supposed run of true PN dials would have been so short (1-2 years in the late 60s thru early 70s?) and demand so remarkably limited that there would be no possibility of variation. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not, nor the chronology of actual production, and so for me this issue remains open. It could well be that the disputed ROC dials were made in a quick and dirty fashion differently and later than the original PNs and without the authenticating features that everyone looks for. Again I sure don't know and my mind is really quite open. As I have stated previously, either the disputed ROC dials are all legit or they are all non-Rolex because they are identical to each other in terms of printing despite the color variations.

Your last point is really interesting and sort of metaphysical really. If the painting in the museum that the art experts and artist's family agree is a Picasso was not actually painted by Picasso, does it really matter in the scheme of things? I don't know but I'd sure rather have the painting Picasso did paint. Wouldn't you?

Thanks again for such a great, thought-provoking first post and I hope you'll continue to contribute to the VRF on this and all the other debates that make Vintage Rolex such a damn addictive pursuit.

All the best,
Tom

P.S. Regarding Antiquorum, I wouldn't rely on them as the arbiter of authenticity. For example,
they have sold variations of this counterfeit Explorer-dial Submariner (maybe it is even the same damn watch?!?) several different times:



http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=206&auctionid=163

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=195&auctionid=74

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=91&auctionid=131

First, regarding Antiquorum, I have to say that they've always been completely faithful to authenticity in my dealings with them. In fact, I know the Explorer dial Sub because I was the high bidder in the Spring auction. Evan was incredibly forthright in cancelling the sale due to the watch being so difficult to authenticate. (He initiated the cancellation.) Just a bit of my experience with the auction house.

I know that 6239s and 6241s are pump pushers. (so are 6238, 6262 and 6264s. Just showing off.) The point was that one of the many counterfeit buyers with less expertise could have made the switch. Your post is interesting because it assumes that there was one dealer/collector who outfitted dozens (if not hundreds) of these dials himself, which seems even less plausible to me. But again, who knows. Pragmatically, though, if anyone would like to sell their "fake" 3-color or gold ROC PN, I will pay you 55k/75k respectively. That's a screaming deal for a counterfeit dial!!! (I happen to know that some of the very dealers who question these dials are also happily selling them at a premium. Go figure...)

I will agree that the red Daytona debate is a different one. My service papers indicate that the dial is red. I happen to know people who can substantiate red Daytona myth, but I don't want to print information that doesn't belong to me directly. I can tell you for sure that Rolex has confirmed that red dials left the building. As for whether mine is one of them, I can't say with cosmic certainty. I do think a red Daytona is more of a dicey situation, being that the watches were not born on the dials. They each appeared on a different reference number Daytona, which is interesting in and of itself. The red Daytona is coveted because it is mysterious. I own one and I won't sell it because the story isn't finished being told on it. I will say without sounding like I'm gloating, that you have to see a red Daytona up close to really see the "complexion" of the dial. It has the EXACT same "skin" as a white/black PN. The coronet is the same. The printing is the same. Everything. You don't get the "fishy" feeling you get when you see something questionable.

And I can tell you something you probably didn't know before: a red Daytona does NOT have a step-down minute track. That's of great importance, because it either goes hand-in-hand with debunking the idea they're counterfeit or reinforcing it. Guess which way I lean?

Here's something that brings the VRF at large into this discussion; one thing that this ongoing debate will do is raise the value of non PN dials. Collectors will gravitate to them because they're free of controversy. Non-PN dials will climb significantly in the next year and close the gap between the two configurations. In my book, if you own a black dial 6263, you're sitting on one of the safest investments in the Rolex world.

Now I have to go out and hit on guys' girlfriends, or whatever it is you think I'm doing. I'm certainly not sitting at home with a loupe shooting out Maxi dials. I would never do something like that. Ever.

...a macro loupe shot of your Red PN would be killer!
Cheers,
T.

I'm one of the guys that sits there at home with a 20x loupe looking at my MAXI 5513 every night to see if the minute markers touch the indeces more on the 15 minute mark or the 45 min mark while my gf is begging for attention

anyways nice to see you here.. saw you at pinkberry last month in the city didnt wanna bother you but next time ill just pop out the maxi dial and just ask u a question like sir do u think these circles look like the are touching the indeces? Then you'll know its bond007 from VRF

Great way to introduce your self, killer post..
G

Either it existed during the period in question or it didn't. I can see your point with Rolex saying "they did" so that should make them real...............not for me unfortunately.............they have been wrong before. When I'm spending bundles of cash, either it is.............or isn't PERIOD. There is no grey area for me or I don't get my checkbook out. So they should "molecularly" be right as well to justify the money being spent on them

It will be interesting to get K's take of the "story behind the story"

 

Not to break your balls John, but just because one does his homework and dives headfirst into buying these with tons of money, heart and soul does not mean there weren't Shenanigans going on in 80's until the dawn of mainstream internet. A father and son duo in Italy comes to mind.........explorer dials..........you get the picture

_______________________


Clif

Wonderful post. I've never traded in vintage Daytonas, PN or otherwise, but I've followed this ongoing debate with interest. I think your points arguing against counterfeiting are pretty persuasive.

By the way, we have a mutual friend in Tommy Smeltzer... he's mentioned your collecting to me several times. Welcome to VRF. It's a great board.

Best,

Ned Vaughn

Tommy T. w Ej in here Austin.

Tell J.J. I said hey...

The manual wind Daytonas have never been my interest, but Rolex History is one of my fascinations so I do read what people say. I think logic plays a big part in determining what might or might not be legit when the complete picture is not available and that is what I have used myself since my interest in antique Rolex began nearly 25 years ago. As I mentioned to another forum member in an email earlier today....what often happens with history....someone makes an assumption and states it...it is repeated by many people many times...and then it is accepted as fact...when in truth it may not actually be. These can be huge things or insignificant things. In cases like what we deal with in collectible watches, sometimes when more information is unearthed...period advertising.... vintage dealer catalogues....vintage parts catalogues...or direct information from the manufacturer, a different story can be gleened....With all of that in mind...a person with a logical bent can gather information and try and put pieces of a puzzle together. I think you make some very good points. As I have stated many times here and on TZ...Rolex was not making collector's items...they were making timepieces for sale. Just like Fender and Gibson were making guitars for sale...not 5 and 6 figure collectible musical instruments. Often times things are running changes on assembly lines in different parts of a plant. A worker may find a part in the bottom of a bin months after the last time he used that variety... If a part fits and does a job and it is there it gets used. Also if some part is out of stock and it is holding up production and something else will work things are substituted. It doesn't matter if it is out of chronological order per se. We try later on to try and derive some historical significance or logical order when often it doesn't exist. Its like when James D. asked Rolex about the 5513's with 5512 casebacks and visa versa...they said...basically...no one was ever supposed to see that but our watchmakers...

Some facts may be discovered along the way and others we may speculate on for decades....I guess that's what keeps it interesting.

Cheers,

T

wouldn't at least one of the Rolex Master Catalogs from the late 60s to late 70s show what dials were available for each reference? Would this not be a simple, yet conclusive method to determine whether the tri-color/gold PN ROC dials were ever fitted as standard dials (from the factory) or as an option (from the factory or via an AD)?

nt

I do not have them but know someone who does.

Thanks John, that will be a good start.


John.

Welcome to the forum.

Just a word on service papers. Every collector has his own comfort level. I for one have seen so many dubious watches with service papers that I simply do not trust them anymore. Neither do they add any additional value to a watch that I am interested in buying. Two exceptions would of course be Geneva plus the authentification service that Rolex UK provides on milsubs.

Regards,

Johan

I think that those PN dials where made by Singer and maybe not all installed on the watches by Rolex, but does it matter? When Singer closed their doors about 15 year ago some dealers were clever enough to buy what was left at the factory. Those dials were put on watches from the US, that could explain a lot...
Enjoy your watches.
Kind regards
Stephane

PS: what i'm wearing today? i love it.

Hi Stephane...

I'm really curious to know what reference number that is. Is it a 6240? I have seen many PNs and I don't recall seeing a 3-CROC (new term?!) on ANYTHING other than a 6240. That's what makes this debate so interesting. It affects such a small number of watches. The gold pieces outnumber steel by 4 to 1...

If you do own a 6240, congratulations. If that's a 6263, the case just got a little colder.

As for being in the Master Book, it would be a slim chance, seeing as 6240s were a technically a prototype model. Maybe a gold '63 is in there?

These 3 CROC PN dials were sold at watch fairs in the States, and the dealers buying them would then put the dials on which daytona they had in stock at that time.

K

Got any proof? A receipt? Sworn attestation or statutory declaration from a buyer or seller?

Or is that just another conjecture presented as gospel from up on high?

Hi John, my watch is a 6240, but it could be a 6263 or 6265.
The first Daytona i've ever bought was a 6263, it was 20 years ago. After i bought the watch someone told me that it was a Paul Newman. I did not know either the seller. The dial was a Panda with Red Daytona, what about those? have you seen any? the watch had one owner and he had bought it new in France...
Kind regards.
Stephane.
Ps: you can email me for more details
This is also a 6240 from my own collection

nt

heard a lot of nice things about your collection..

I've also owned several of the three color Oyster Newmans (as well as the gold Oyster variety) and always thought they were the pinnacle of Rolex sport watches- cool exotic dial on a screwdown chronograph case. Like you I ran the logic through my mind when I heard from the doubters and none of it seemed to make sense. Why such a small run of these (well crafted) dials back in the early 90s and no more lately? Why make them in the first place considering the (relatively) low value of the Newmans back in that time period. Couldn't figure out why they wouldn't crank more of them out today, when the manufacturing process has no doubt evolved.

I still don't have any answers to these nagging questions but after seeing the back of these dials all those questions seem mute.

The "Singer" stamping on the back of the three color ROCs looks to be a very crude attempt at forgery. Unfortunately I'm down south for the winter and don't have access to my image archives but I'm sure Kamal will post the "evidence". Everyone has their own tolerance as to what they feel necessary for proving or not proving I guess, but to me the differences made made the hair stand up on the back of my neck

I think you're 100% correct that no one dealer or collector can "prove" whether they are forgeries or not, you just need to do the research and come to your own conclusions. Maybe if I had all the information you have I would feel differently- I haven't actually seen the authentication from Rolex on the red Daytona. I believe one thing can be said without doubt however; if the Red Oyster Newman is authentic than so are the blacks and the gold ROCs- and vice versa.

... warm welcome here on VRF !!! very intersting post, thanks for sharing !!!!

all th best !!
Werner

Hi John,

Great first post! Good topic and something that I know a little about. I tend to agree with your post and I will absolutely agree that standard black dial plastic Daytona's are a solid choice. Black dial 6263 is an icon.

The interesting thing about Gold PN's is that pretty much the entire watch world agrees they are legit except one dealer in England. He and his merry band of converts are hell bent on saving the world from counterfit 18k PN's. Very noble. Or at least that's how this dealer wants you to think. I think this is a clever bit of self-promotion. By saying "Ahem, that watch is fake" when the other dealers and auction house say it's real you are really just trying to say "I know more than all of you put together". Or to put this into 'dealer-speak': "Don't buy from anyone but me as I am the only expert in the world." That's what's really going on in my opinion. Ah, I hear you saying, but what about my Rolex Service Center paperwork Mr. UK dealer??? Bah, he will say, Rolex has no experts left and they call me as I am the true Rolex God. Never mind that I am self-proclaimed.

I used to own a 6264 Red Daytona that was indeed serviced at a Rolex Service Center (spring of '07) and yes the paperwork referenced the red dial. It was beautiful when it came back from service! I traded it away largely because of listening to the rantings of the self-proclaimed Rolex God. I wish I had not listened to that pompous idiot and I had not made that trade as I believe that to be a very important watch. A mistake from which I have learned to trust my knowledge and instincts and to trust RSC.


Best,
HRC

hrcusa@yahoo.com

A vacation shot of a nice 18k 6263:



Pre-service:

Do you really believe what you say to be true? I am not an idiot, pls dont call me that, I find it offensive.

You are clearly a Rolex fanatic love your watches with a passion.

Do you really think that I care if I sell a watch or not, do you really believe that I want collectors to buy only from me, then why would I fall out with a Rolex Collector like you?

Do you really believe that I am the only one against these dials? If my only motive was financial, surely I would have jumped on the bandwaggon, and made tons of dollars. I had many many clients for these watches, and many offers to buy these dials, why did I not do it? Man, Yeah you are right, I am an idot. I should have done it. I should have thought fcuk you all, and dealt in these dials and made lots of money, and kept quiet. Because thats what its all about, right, the money, the bottom line.

K

Well said HRC.


John.

Some additional thoughts to try and keep the discussion in perspective:

Dealers aren't trying to make money by saying these dials aren't right; that's not the bottom line here. I believe it all stems from a passion and a need to keep history feeling like a current event. We all have to admit that it's incredibly exciting to feel like there's still some room to affect change within that which is inherently unchangeable. How unexciting it would be to see these watches as mere relics... That's why we keep the debate open on maxi dials, meters first, Mark XVII DRSDs, etc. It keeps us engaged as enthusiasts. I think that's something to be embraced. Otherwise we're all just matter-a-factly holding onto cold pieces of steel that dead guys wore.
(In the case of Kamal, whom I have not met, it's interesting that he's now very well known for disputing these dials. It's 2007, some 40 years after the manufacture of these watches, and there is a new name in the (recent) Rolex annals.)

Let's narrow this down. Will Rolex ever release a statement saying that these dials are not of Rolex manufacture? I think we all know the answer to that. Nnnope.
-SO-
That leaves what amounts to unsubstantiated claims, which if uncontested, could amount to very much the same thing as a letter from Rolex.

-SO-

If that's the case, and these dials are looked upon informally as not of Rolex manufacture, what then? What's the selling price for these now-famed MAYER DIAL configurations? (just kidding, I think.) Are they worth nothing? Can anyone who owns one sell them in good faith? Does it stop a PN ROC 6263 in 18kt from being one of the NICEST looking Rolexes around? I love them. If Rolex didn't make them, someone else made them better. Have you ever seen a PN-ROC gold dial that had snow white numbers in the subdials? It's stunning.

-SO THEN-

Anyone with the expertise to put the SINGER stamp under an electron microscope should have to expertise to appraise the value of these watches. If it's not worth what I think it is, what is it worth? If you're going to be bold enough to apply an acumen that should be looked upon as changing the market, then don't stop there; tell us in your estimation what the new value is.

And again, anyone who wants to sell me one of these watches can get these fake pieces off their hands and make a killing on it. 55k for steel, 75k for gold. I will even accept a letter from you as a dealer releasing you from any liability in having sold me a counterfeit dial. I will be buying these as counterfeits.

I'll be waiting to hear from you.

Thank you, but I think I was well know before I even disputed these dials, but thats another story.

Yes I have seen and handled PN-ROC gold dial that had snow white numbers in the subdials and agree with you, It's stunning, but just not Rolex.

Its a bit like my Pro Hunters, they have taken non Rolex and Rolex luvers by storm.

Phrases like, they are the perfect design, they are the coolest watches we have seen, etc. Some buyers will still cannot believe that they were my private customization and design, and not done by Rolex. Today there are no sellers, and buyers are willing to pay a premium to get one of them.

And they were all sold by word of mouth.

What you have done with your offer is to create an official market for thr CROCs, but that changes nothing as there was a demand for these anyway.

Yes these dials are stunning at a wrist length, and there will always be a market for them because people like them and will buy them. They could not care less if they are Rolex or not. Do you think a Russian Oligarch has even the time to visit the net and listen to anything I have to say? If he likes it, he will buy it.

I wish you all the best in your venture. The prices of a normal steel daytona is now around USD 45K and a gold one around USD 70K, so you are pretty safe in your offer.

K

it might take off

John, thanks for keeping it in perspective..

http://www.DoubleRedSeaDweller.com

nt

and I am glad that you are at least considering the possibility that weather you or I dont see eye to eye on this issue, we are both passionate.. you too John..

http://www.DoubleRedSeaDweller.com

K, again, I don't know you nor have I ever dealt with you, so I'm not leveling any sort of judgement on you... I think we've established through your last post that you still sell these watches. That's great, because it separates the discussion from the reality of the market. (If you don't still sell these watches, I stand corrected and misunderstood you.) Maybe the best way to look at these discussions is as an exhibition. I'm all for that. We can talk about the possibility that they're not correct as they continue to change hands. And as for the market on non-PN Daytonas, I think getting $10,000.00 for a dial that some fool made in his basement is a great deal. Don't scoff at 10k! That's a lot of money for anything, let alone a worthless piece of metal and matte!

I will make the VRF and the Rolex collector universe a deal: if I can prove that these dials were at least manufactured by Singer while the company was under contract with Rolex, You have to accept them as real and call them "Mayer Dials". Then I'll have my place in the Rolex history as well, in exchange for having rescued a very important and valuable dial configuration from the dark recesses of controversy and questionability.

What do you think? We can all benefit from it.

In all seriousness, it would end any sort of argument one way or another as to which camp is correct. Let's see if ANYONE can get "the Makers" to chime in????? Now that would truly be something.....

I'm on it, EK... I like these types of projects. I get very determined. When I'm done with this, people are going to know my name. Then I will be remembered for something in this world!!!

I like this posting stuff. I can use my experience with message boards and opionions to keep things in a constructive and meaningful zone... I always know when to stop one reply short of nitpicky...

I do want to say though, that mentioning that I own these dials is practicing full disclosure so that nobody thinks I have a hidden agenda. I own them, and I will continue to buy them. That should prove that I'm not deluded.

Anyway, I'm off to do drugs and party and then get in a fight with a cop.

Mayer Dials. The So-Called Mayer Dials. Mr. John Mayer-Dials. Mr. J.M. Dials. I'll have to keep working this out on my Trapper Keeper.

And when I'm done, I'll get Rolex to make me a STAGE-DWELLER. Quadruple Red. Except for the third line down which will be green. Then Ed will have to use the term QR/3LGSD.

Have a great weekend all.

JM

I like to see proof and that is all I as asked all along..that is all...

QR/3LGSD... ok, now you are going too far...

http://www.DoubleRedSeaDweller.com

and second, John, you are beginning to frighten me. Did you even read my post? I have clearly said I have never bought or sold any of these dials. I have also clearly said, yes, the dials are stunning, but they are just not Rolex.
Will reply later, as I'm in the middle of a party, hitting on my friends' wives, or whatever it is you think I do

K

Hi K.
Happy Diwali to you as well... Don't be scared! It's not my intention to frighten you!

I read some of your post, but as you're eluding to, I'm not that bright. You said that when a dirty Russian... I think that's what you said, "Dirty Ruskie", I think it was, (I'm too lazy to look it back up.) you said when a filthy Russian man saw something he liked, that it didn't stop him from buying something even if it wasn't authentic. I thought you were speaking from your own experience, but I must have misread it and it's really just conjecture.

These misunderstandings will happen. Maybe next time I should include the possibility that I misunderstood you in my actual post so as to avoid a reply saying I misunderstood you. Again, I mean.

Hitting on friends' wives is sick. Unless you're in Fleetwood Mac, and then it's inspiration.

but now looks as you are trying to having some fun on my expense.

You also have a reading problem but then maybe you dont.

So I will keep it short and sweet so even you can understand....bye bye, go play with someone else.

K

No! No! I am a serious person. I'm serious all the time. I'm actually painting my feelings about Darfur right now.

I'm definitely a serious collector, as some on the board will attest to. But I'm not into dogfighting on message boards.

Something interesting happened to this thread when you entered it. What was a VERY open-minded, even tempered discussion became a little... uninviting. The energy you project when you type is a little combative, the kind that dispells crowds instead of gathers them. In my world, you're either a "pusher" or a "puller", and I'm all about "pullers"... those who invite people to engage instead of repelling them, making them throw up defenses and dream up ways to retaliate.

Back on topic, we'll find out what the answer to this is. My guess is sooner than later. Until then, it's all discourse. Discussion.
What makes this board such a great resource is the ability to compile our experiences into one motherbrain. That's the cool part of the internet. If I want to be sarcastic and negative, questioning people's intelligence, I'll go into politics.

But seriously, you do have a small penis.

Kidding. Kidding. Couldn't resist.

Man you are a quick learner, JM.
Kamal is basically the Eugene Landy of the Vintage Rolex world. So do not accept a psychotropic drug regimen from him and give him power of attorney.
Just kidding...but not really.
HAGWE,
T.

See, K starts off "sort of" nice, then he just can't help himself! This is when his medication start to wear off.

Old dog, same tricks!

BTW, welcome John. Nice to see another insight to this "issue".


John.

When Ek mentioned your name to me last week, I asked, "Who is he, a hedge fund guy?".

EK answered that you were a musician, the next EC. Sorry, EK, never heard of him. Think I will stick with the Beatles, Stones, a bit of Bruce and EC.

He explained to me that he went blue in the face trying to explain about PN Dials, but you would not listen. And why should you? I am sure you have done your "homework" and feel that the dials are stunning, and if they are stunning then they must or maybe are genuine, and even if they are not, you are happy because they are still stunning. These are logical and intelligent conclusions. But then I am an idiot, and an idiot with a small penis, logic and conclusions are way beyond me.

Today, did a little "homework" and find that you are also a comedian, so now I do understand your posts a little better. Insulting someone with body part trash talk is not the sign of maturity and not part of the discussion. I have many stalkers, and I am sure you have given them something to laugh about on my expense.

If and buts and maybe are not part of my Rolex Vocabulary. I do have an open mind, and I hope you do find the answers you are looking for, and even if you dont, I dont think it will really bother you one bit. You love the dials, and thats it.

By the way, a 6265 3CROC is on sale at Christies Geneva, good luck with it. I think I will stick to the steel datejust, they are pretty safe.

K

I know john is a reputable collector, who is known to have extensive knowledge about rolexes and many other brands... and while this does not exactly pertain to rolexes, does anyone know where he got his roll up watch case? I love the idea of having options on trips. I am just having zero luck finding one!

Welcome Aboard...
Godspeed
A

Hi John,

I work for a highly respected international watch magazine and we're always interested in prominent people who have an interest in the horological arts. If you'd be interested in an interview where you can talk about watches until your heart's content, then please feel free to contact me and I can provide further details of our publication.

Many Thanks