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A warning about added papers

October 15 2011 at 7:28 AM
A_T  (Login angel_truth)
from IP address 217.115.137.222



Here we have a watch that is sold by the most respectable Andrew Shear on eBay. All in all, a nice original and honest 1655 straight hand.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200639059261

We can see here, that it was purchased by comexfan (Please see the feedback dated August 22)
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=comexfan&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer

Now, the watch magically appears for sale with all the boxes and papers.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200662315551








    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:17 PM


 
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Vijay
(Login YetiBiker)
VRF Member
98.80.37.155

ARE YOU SERIOUS??!!!

October 15 2011, 7:45 AM 


 
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A_T
(Login angel_truth)
79.172.193.89

Very. (nt)

October 15 2011, 7:49 AM 


 
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gary
(Login garis69)
VRF Member
220.255.1.45

What's wrong?

October 15 2011, 8:03 AM 

Assuming what you have allege is true, what's wrong with it. He bought it legit through eBay and resells it legit through eBay. What's wrong?

 
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Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

Whats wrong, Are you kidding?

October 15 2011, 8:06 AM 

Whats wrong is that the watch was bought with no box and paper and is now listed as a full set. How did the watch get sold 3 different times with no papers from Original Seller to Andrew Shear, from Andrew Shear to comexfan and then end up on ebay as a FULL SET?


    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:18 PM


 
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Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

I saw the same thing but, didnt want to post!!

October 15 2011, 8:03 AM 

I am a part of this in an indirect way. That 1655 was originally posted by another ebay member for auction. Both Andrew Shear and I contacted the seller in an effort to buy it off of ebay. I offered one price and the buyer told Andrew. Andrew offered $1500 more for the watch than me and he got it.

We both use the same watchmaker and when I happened to see the exact watch (a 1655 Mark 1 dial with Mark 1 bezel) I knew it was the same watch. Upon inspection I saw that the bezel had a huge ding in it (underneath) and the Orange Hand was glowing and relumed. Andrew didnt want to mess with it and just put it back up on ebay basically as is with a folded link bracelet and new crystal. It was offered to me at the $1500 price above my offer by Andrew but, I felt the price was too high and passed.

When I saw Andrew list the watch I knew it was going to get a good price and sure enough comexfan was the eventual winning bidder. I actually bid on the watch as well but, was outbid by comexfan.

I kept a picture of the serial numbers because I knew this watch was going to come back to ebay and sure enough it did.



On a side note, to show how shady ebay can be, note that the serial numbers photos on ebay intentionally obscure the bezel damage that is evident in my photo below.

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]


    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:21 PM


 
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Michael Morgan
(Login Sub-Dweller)
VRF Member
68.5.137.144

I'm pretty sure.....

October 15 2011, 8:12 AM 

The vintage1665 ebay account is run by a fellow named Dave Rosenburg.....click on the photos...his photbucket profile name is Dave Rosenburg...I checked & there is a Dave Rosenberg who lives near el sugundo, CA....I highly doubt that this is comexfan. I also, think the 1655 in question above is 2 different watches...I may be wrong though.


    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:22 PM


 
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Philipp
(Login philippstahl)
VRF Contributing Member
86.93.47.31

WTF that's seriously BAD for our trusted community !! WHY??

October 15 2011, 8:18 AM 


WHY causing this cesspool??

Hope this will be sorted
out till the bottum...

Pfffff, for a couple of more
bucks?! I don't get it!!

VERY sad ;-(






    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:23 PM


 
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RichardC
(Login richardc77)
VRF Member
81.157.215.112

You wanna be pretty sure about what you say...

October 15 2011, 8:18 AM 

before posting something of this magnitude here.



    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:24 PM


 
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tomvox1
(Login tomvox1)
VRF Dial Archive Curator
96.232.167.143

It's hard to say conclusively that it is the same watch because...

October 15 2011, 8:30 AM 

...all but one of the pix have been deleted from the earlier listing.
That said, how many 2.9mil 1st gen 1655s are out there?
Maybe the complete serial number could be shared with the forum by the interested parties to see if it is one and the same?
Best,
T.


 
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Michael Morgan
(Login Sub-Dweller)
VRF Member
68.5.137.144

I agree Tomvox...nt.

October 15 2011, 8:33 AM 


 
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tomvox1
(Login tomvox1)
VRF Dial Archive Curator
96.232.167.143

Also, maybe someone could post pix of 2.9mil punched papers to check...

October 15 2011, 8:36 AM 

...the way the punch was laid out, i.e. how many dots in each respective number, shape of the numbers, etc. This would help establish the original technique/"font" for punched numbers from this period and possible deviations from same in a potential ex post facto job.
Best,
T.


 
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Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
69.22.100.207

Re: Also, maybe someone could post pix of 2.9mil punched papers to check...

October 15 2011, 8:57 AM 

I have studied this for a long time myself and there is more than 1 pattern some have 5 dots others 6 etc. Keep in mind a lot were also hand written in certain parts of the world also. IMHO this is something you cannot prove unless 1 you have a before of a watch without papers being sold or a loose punched paper that was sold and then suddenly it found its old case after it was re stamped.

IMHO the majority of the FULL SETS that are offered on ebay are recreated. Is this new news to anybody here? When 1 sees blank papers sell for 1000's are they wallpapering the bathroom with them?
I have been looking for vintage sport model rolex watches for over 20 years and my ratio of full sets found is less than 3%. That a ___________ would alter a watch to get more $ for it doesn't surprise me as I have seen this evolve from the adding of Tiffany on a dial to this in all the years I have been buying watches.


    
This message has been edited by greekbum from IP address 69.22.100.207 on Oct 15, 2011 8:57 AM


 
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motts
(Login Mottts)
71.229.155.180

Yes...

October 15 2011, 9:04 AM 

YES...

 
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Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

Here is your conclusive photographic proof..

October 15 2011, 8:49 AM 

Look at the markings I circled in red from the original watch and the watch on ebay. If you arent convinced they are the same watch then you just cant see.

And Tom, you are very astute to notice the number of holes in the perforations, they are all incorrect as well AND all consistent with 90% of the watches comexfan, vintage1665 and another seller use on ebay. 5 dots is incorrect, 6 dots is genuine on these years as well as the actual number sizes being too small.

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

 
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John Ireland
(Login figcar)
VRF Member
69.235.130.33

Is this the damage you say the seller is hiding?

October 15 2011, 10:48 AM 

I see minor "stuff" that I would expect on any vintage watch that hadn't been sitting in a safe for 20 years. Perhaps someone looking for a NIB or MINT example of a watch would find these distressing. To assume the seller was intentionally trying to conceal these is unwarranted, in my opinion. The three day return policy offered by the seller gives amply time to inspect and reject the watch if what you are pointing out was determined by the buyer to be unacceptable.

John Ireland

 
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Arvid
(Login conrail)
VRF Member
173.76.22.137

No, he's pointing that out as evidence to show it is the same watch

October 15 2011, 11:35 AM 


 
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John Ireland
(Login figcar)
VRF Member
69.235.130.33

Excuse my ignorance but...

October 15 2011, 8:48 AM 

I am not sure I am seeing the "crime" that has others so worked up.

I see that a guy has bought a watch, put it together with a full set of complimentary items (boxes and books and brochures, etc.) and is reselling it as same. I can't find anywhere that is saying it is the original boxes and papers. I don't see him trying to double the price as might be the case with an original full set (I'm guessing on the price markup for these items).

The ONLY thing I have a question about are the punched papers...and since the photo blocks the number on the papers and the watch, I can't be sure what to conclude...however if I was buying the watch, I would ask questions..

I do find pictures to be of excellent quality and very complete. I don't see any use of the blocking of the serial number to hide a cosmetic or mechanical defect (as someone has suggested).

I DO SEE something very curious (to me) and that is how people are complaining about the boxes and booklets and stuff...when that is what so many people here are selling and buying. My experience here is that when someone gets a watch they like (or plan to sell) the often search out books and boxes to make the entire vintage experience more complete...or else to make their own collection more complete.


John Ireland


    
This message has been edited by VintageRolexForum from IP address 24.242.198.197 on Oct 15, 2011 12:27 PM


 
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MichaelK
(Login bigboystoys)
VRF Contributing Member
79.231.69.109

John, you know that Rolex papers are unique, once lost, they are

October 15 2011, 8:53 AM 

gone forever, at least the original certificate. Would be better luck than winning the lottery if you "find" the original certificate after you bought a watch from a honourable seller w/o papers, uh?

 
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Derk Marko Reckel
(Login Reckel)
VRF Member
95.113.52.34

and especially if the punching...

October 15 2011, 9:19 AM 

... is not in 4 x 6 pattern but 4 x 5 which isn't correct.

Just not stating "papers and box original to the watch" isn't sufficient if the watch is offered as "full set" which normally is interpreted that at least the papers have same serial as the watch and the rest is time correct.

Bye,
Derk

 
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