The only solution is to drive these fakers out of business ASAP. Anyone in California want to call the police?
And now the question must also be: will original papers add any value anymore at all after this? I tend to think not...
No one gonna talk about the elephant in the room? :-)
October 16 2011, 11:08 AM
Not aimed at you Tom but what about the premium value of sets today? Since it apparantly exists so many blank papers, will sets continue to have so much premium? I'm not saying dealers do this but it is apparantly a risk and it will be almost impossible to detect.
Is the extra premium for sets justified?
I'm not tryinig to step on anyones toes but I just felt I had to ask.
Re: "Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...
October 16 2011, 11:10 AM
Yikes! Good catch Tom. There can be only one reason that vintage1665 guy would be buying those date stampers! You'll note his feedback also contains lots of papers, hang tags, accessories, so he certainly has access to them.
LLOLLL ... good work !!
about your question : the problem is almost related to blank papers .. it's too easy to punch a case number .. often on a paper not correct for the time of watch production) without a plausible provenance...
If you have blank papers you can always use sites like Rolexephemera.com or similar to find out what watch your paper goes with. Then you just purchase after the papers and very quickly you have a nice set. I doubt ordinary people do this to add value on their precious piece. This is something people just do to make easy money and therefore you just start with the papers and buy watches accordingly. Right?
no I was meaning of watches with a correct dealer...
October 16 2011, 12:39 PM
stamp with date of sale and reference : this is a little bit diffeent ( to say the least ) from a damned paper where you have only :
1) pierced case number
2) reference ( es. 6263 or 1665 )
hope my opinion is clear now.
But wouldn't really be tough to forge this information. Very difficult to verify sales information from the 60's and 70's. And I wouldn't really be surprised to see old stampers sold as well. There's no records to know which retailer sold which watch so why wouldn't they forge dates and dealers as well? Rolexes were sold all over the world so searching old ads would give you all necessary info on how to sign the papers. Also impossible to say that all dealers used a stamper back in the days and also impossible to know how they looked from year to year..
I understand what you mean but I can't see this as the forgers biggest problem. If they have the papers and the watch. Why not just write down the other info as well?
One thing if you know the watch from the beginning but to be honest, how many one-owner pieces are there out there nowdays? Not saying sets don't have more value but with all these blank papers floating around, the initial question is valid?
If I'm missing something obvious. Please forgive me for my ignorance.
Rolex Geneva was able to confirm the supplying dealer of my mid 70's watch, where in this particular case the retailer had binned all of its sales records going back that far.
Good work Tom, is this a sign of a shrinking or hardening market in which to maintain the status quo unfortunately some dealers may be resorting to fraudulent means to enhance sales value.
It might be a very interesting database for VRF to create in which people could register their serial number if it has an official quarantee. Akin to the serial number register it may perform a really valuable and informative reference source for both sellers and buyers.It would take time to become comprehensive but for the more rare,obscure and high value pieces a valuable database.
This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Oct 16, 2011 2:00 PM
So maybe this is all good news! If genuine blank vintage Rolex papers...
October 16 2011, 1:54 PM
...are available on the open market, along with genuine machines that can be used to replicate vintage documents so that they conform to a specific vintage watch, "papers" then become no more valuable than a period brochure or hang tag and even less valuable than a box. "Papers" are now reduced to nothing more than a nice accessory. If you're honest, you'll tell all when you sell the watch. And if you're dishonest you probably will go looking for "greener" pastures...maybe selling solar panels.
A lot of dealers has always only paid a premium for piece with papers equal to the value of the loose paperwork. Thats certainly what I have been recommending my clients to do, for years. Especially with Tudor (where blank papers are even more readily available).
Ty (Login rootcanal) VRF Contributing Member 188.8.131.52
I for one will always still put a premium on B/P complete pieces
...in the same week after buying some blank papers one of our glorious VRF members
also bought one of these older typewriters and sold a full set watch watch that had no
papers before (I used the same tactic than Tomvox to witness that). And this dealer has been invited to one of these big Rolex fiestas... in the "flat country".
Now, if you check his reconds you will see he has impeccable VRF feedbacks, so when I read these "feedbcaks" often written by a "friend for a friend" or by a "dealer for another dealer" or worth, by newbies collectors that had no clue of what they really bought anyway, that just put a smile on my face.
I think it is time to open eyes, VRF became a dealer platform where collectors can hardly find a place
and as I told you last time when you emailed me Richard, that is due to a change in management orientation or a let it be.
Dealers are omni present and making the law on VRF, collectors are rarer and rarer.Dont misunderstand me, I have a lot of dealer friends but their influence on VRF bacame much to strong.
The result of that management...? scams after scams, red alert warnings headlines on VRM, about 40% posts to verify ID's, member accusing members etc. When I started evocating these problems long time ago and asking for more control I remember Mike Wood posting under my post "hmmm I already hear the police siren" so, no offense Mike, but it seems that the police sirens are heard every single days on VRF lately.
Dont you regret VRF from some years ago Richard? I do. And if you ask me if I am bitter today, the answer is yes I do.As one of the older VRF member if not the older (not my age) I miss the good old days.
Now, like 2 days ago you can edit my post, no problem
NB: as we say in french, the forum is "one train late", in Malaysia a German company called Trumpf is known to clone Rolex cases since a long time with its 904L 3D laser technology, so better check your cases instead your green papers
Truth is like the The Pyramids, or the Great Wall; they will remain when all else has crumbled to dust. Dust to dust..
The truth is , there is no part of a watch, any watch, that cannot be duplicated sophisticatedly.You talk about cases being duplicated; I have seen redials that are indistinguishable from the originals. The originals will sell for tens of thousands, so why is it so surprising that people do what they do? Especially so in hard times like these.
That is why public education is so important. Otherwise this hobby will wilt away, for the lack of new participants. This is not in the interest of any honest member of the Community, collector or seller. An honest market is really in the interest of sellers and dealers; it is not too difficult to rationlise this thought. Dealers and sellers who oppose a vigourously transparent market are digging their own graves.
I have deleted my posting and apologised unconditionally to the mods.
This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Oct 17, 2011 7:51 AM This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Oct 17, 2011 7:50 AM This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Oct 17, 2011 3:09 AM
Just to be clear: this connection was pointed out to me by another member...
October 16 2011, 9:01 PM
...and then I posted his evidence here as a public service to us all--thank you BM!
Because we are a community where at least 95% are good and honorable collectors, we can beat the criminals, forgers and counterfeiters through collective action...if we all look out for each other's interests.
The honest among us have nothing to fear from sharing our knowledge and observations about the business of this hobby. Let's keep our eyes open for dodgy practices and call out dishonest behavior when it occurs. Through this vigilance we can both protect ourselves and our hobby from those who would seek to profit from it by dishonesty.
We would not have found about about Dave Rosenberg/"vintage1665"'s chicanery without one member having the courage to speak out in public here.
Let's all follow that example and not give a free pass to the fakers by remaining silent!
Thanks & best regards,