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"Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...

October 16 2011 at 8:52 AM

tomvox1  (Login tomvox1)
VRF Dial Archive Curator
from IP address 96.232.167.143

...courtesy of the usual suspects--see the winner of these two auctions of vintage date stamp equipment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280700227932#ht_500wt_1413

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270803823925#ht_500wt_1413

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=vintage1665&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer

(h/t BM)

The only solution is to drive these fakers out of business ASAP. Anyone in California want to call the police?
And now the question must also be: will original papers add any value anymore at all after this? I tend to think not... sad.gif
Best,
T.




 
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Per
(Login roh123)
VRF Member
85.229.115.213

No one gonna talk about the elephant in the room? :-)

October 16 2011, 9:08 AM 

Not aimed at you Tom but what about the premium value of sets today? Since it apparantly exists so many blank papers, will sets continue to have so much premium? I'm not saying dealers do this but it is apparantly a risk and it will be almost impossible to detect.

Is the extra premium for sets justified?

I'm not tryinig to step on anyones toes but I just felt I had to ask.

Have a nice afternoon guys

 
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Per
(Login roh123)
VRF Member
85.229.115.213

Bleh, lol...

October 16 2011, 10:20 AM 

Missed your q at the bottom. Silly me happy.gif

Thanks for your work Tom.

 
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Arvid
(Login conrail)
VRF Member
173.76.22.137

Re: "Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...

October 16 2011, 9:10 AM 

Yikes! Good catch Tom. There can be only one reason that vintage1665 guy would be buying those date stampers! You'll note his feedback also contains lots of papers, hang tags, accessories, so he certainly has access to them.

 
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Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
69.22.100.207

Re: "Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...

October 16 2011, 9:18 AM 

There must be a good explanation..........

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]


    
This message has been edited by greekbum from IP address 69.22.100.207 on Oct 16, 2011 9:18 AM


 
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AAKVIPER
(Login aakviper)
71.59.72.225

The correct tool for punched papers..lol

October 16 2011, 9:57 AM 

If one is going to do it right...A

[linked image]

http://rolexnessreviews.blogspot.com/

 
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Orchi
(Login orchi)
VRF Contributing Member
60.50.68.202

Buddy Tom.It may be a Tip of the Iceberg..Worser has happened from VRM recently..nt.

October 16 2011, 9:56 AM 

Best regards
Orchi.

 
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Richard Carver
(Premier Login VintageRolexForum)
Owner
24.242.198.197

Really? Beyond the ones you email me about?

October 16 2011, 10:11 AM 

My mail is always open.

.

 
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marcello pisani
(Login marci52)
VRF Emeritus
93.56.47.80

bravo Detective Chief Inspector Tom !!

October 16 2011, 10:15 AM 

LLOLLL ... good work !!
about your question : the problem is almost related to blank papers .. it's too easy to punch a case number .. often on a paper not correct for the time of watch production) without a plausible provenance...

 
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Per
(Login roh123)
VRF Member
85.229.115.213

Still too easy...

October 16 2011, 10:26 AM 

If you have blank papers you can always use sites like Rolexephemera.com or similar to find out what watch your paper goes with. Then you just purchase after the papers and very quickly you have a nice set. I doubt ordinary people do this to add value on their precious piece. This is something people just do to make easy money and therefore you just start with the papers and buy watches accordingly. Right?

 
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marcello pisani
(Login marci52)
VRF Emeritus
93.56.47.80

no I was meaning of watches with a correct dealer...

October 16 2011, 10:39 AM 

stamp with date of sale and reference : this is a little bit diffeent ( to say the least ) from a damned paper where you have only :
1) pierced case number
2) reference ( es. 6263 or 1665 )
hope my opinion is clear now.

 
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Per
(Login roh123)
VRF Member
85.229.115.213

True...

October 16 2011, 11:00 AM 

But wouldn't really be tough to forge this information. Very difficult to verify sales information from the 60's and 70's. And I wouldn't really be surprised to see old stampers sold as well. There's no records to know which retailer sold which watch so why wouldn't they forge dates and dealers as well? Rolexes were sold all over the world so searching old ads would give you all necessary info on how to sign the papers. Also impossible to say that all dealers used a stamper back in the days and also impossible to know how they looked from year to year..

[linked image]

I understand what you mean but I can't see this as the forgers biggest problem. If they have the papers and the watch. Why not just write down the other info as well?

One thing if you know the watch from the beginning but to be honest, how many one-owner pieces are there out there nowdays? Not saying sets don't have more value but with all these blank papers floating around, the initial question is valid?

If I'm missing something obvious. Please forgive me for my ignorance. happy.gif

 
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fatboyharris
(Login fatboyharris)
VRF Member
78.86.97.77

It's down to how far back you go......

October 16 2011, 11:57 AM 

Rolex Geneva was able to confirm the supplying dealer of my mid 70's watch, where in this particular case the retailer had binned all of its sales records going back that far.

Good work Tom, is this a sign of a shrinking or hardening market in which to maintain the status quo unfortunately some dealers may be resorting to fraudulent means to enhance sales value.

It might be a very interesting database for VRF to create in which people could register their serial number if it has an official quarantee. Akin to the serial number register it may perform a really valuable and informative reference source for both sellers and buyers.It would take time to become comprehensive but for the more rare,obscure and high value pieces a valuable database.

regards

John


    
This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 78.86.97.77 on Oct 16, 2011 12:00 PM


 
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Marcus
(Login newsboy2)
VRF Member
2.123.63.138

Good Idea John

October 16 2011, 12:21 PM 


 
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Nycarrera
(Login Nycarrera)
VRF Member
166.137.137.115

Nice catch T.

October 16 2011, 10:32 AM 

The plot thickens and the silence is deafening....

 
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Fred
(Login red1108nyc)
67.82.99.208

Re: "Original date stamped" forgeries are also coming...

October 16 2011, 11:09 AM 

There is so much stamping going on the first stamper broke so he had to order another..

 
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Clay
(Login 5513)
VRF Member
69.118.58.104

Well....

October 16 2011, 11:25 AM 

And people wonder why I never was interested in paying the premium that people ask for B & P....

 
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Mark020
(Login Mark020)
VRF Contributing Member
82.168.48.167

+1. Too much stuff in my house anyway.

October 16 2011, 11:48 AM 

.

 
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John Ireland
(Login figcar)
VRF Member
69.235.130.33

So maybe this is all good news! If genuine blank vintage Rolex papers...

October 16 2011, 11:54 AM 

...are available on the open market, along with genuine machines that can be used to replicate vintage documents so that they conform to a specific vintage watch, "papers" then become no more valuable than a period brochure or hang tag and even less valuable than a box. "Papers" are now reduced to nothing more than a nice accessory. If you're honest, you'll tell all when you sell the watch. And if you're dishonest you probably will go looking for "greener" pastures...maybe selling solar panels.









John Ireland

 
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morgan
(Login MorganDK)
90.184.20.77

Im not sure this is entirely new....

October 16 2011, 12:04 PM 

A lot of dealers has always only paid a premium for piece with papers equal to the value of the loose paperwork. Thats certainly what I have been recommending my clients to do, for years. Especially with Tudor (where blank papers are even more readily available).

M

http://www.tudorcollector.com

 
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