<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

4x5 4x6 ??? Punched papers...

October 17 2011 at 4:35 PM

Roger  (Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director
from IP address 86.146.148.234

OK, this 4x5 holes or 4x6 holes on Rolex Punched papers came up last week.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1318696919/Just+a+point+on+the+4x5+or+4x6+punching...


So is there any rhyme or reason to the use of 4x5 or 4x6 holes? Is 4x5 really just USA?

Please post any 4x5's and lets see.

[linked image]



---Perpetual Knowledge---

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
Nick B.
(Login Eurocontroller)
VRF Member
217.235.187.72

Good question Roger...

October 18 2011, 12:16 AM 

I'm keen to clarify this as well...and find out any nuances with the paperwork.

cheers,

Nick.

 
 Respond to this message   
MC Yoon
(Login munchiew)
VRF Member
202.183.154.3

Nuances...

October 18 2011, 12:31 AM 

Aside from the above, there are other ways; patina is all important. Old paper should look old. The paper should be yellowed or even browned,due to acid ageing, the ink, both on the printed form, as well as on any rubberstamp or handwriting, should look be faded and not fresh, and the paper itself should have a handled feel (in most cases). Just examples of what to look out for. Not full proof, but certainly more data points for verification.

 
 Respond to this message   
steboe
(no login)
217.81.135.201

old info from r-l-x for comparism

October 18 2011, 2:16 AM 


 
 Respond to this message   
Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

Good Link and some food for thought...

October 18 2011, 5:53 AM 

In that R-L-X link you will notice that every single certificate posted (with the exception of 1)had the correct 6 dots to comprise any punched number. The certs in that link were all real with the exception of one..the one that had the 5 dot punched number. The years were early 70's through 80's and even the green booklets had the 6 dot punched numbers.

Not to rehash the old thread but, all of the certs produced by the sellers in question had the 5 dot punched numbers which was always my "tell" that they were not authentic. Again, I do believe that there are some 5 dot numbered certificates that are genuine but, the percentage is very low and the certs in question were 98% ALL 5 dot numbers which is just not accurate or possible, IMO.

 
 Respond to this message   
steboe
(no login)
109.43.0.7

Re: Good Link and some food for thought...

October 18 2011, 6:24 AM 

I assume the 5 dot paper to be correct as it is shown with the invoice!

 
 Respond to this message   
Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

Really?

October 18 2011, 7:10 AM 

Do you see the dealers stamp on the cert? Do you see the date on the cert? Do you see the SN on the receipt? How on earth can you confirm that these 2 pieces belong together? Is it not possible that the receipt from the Dealer was "sourced" and added to the punched cert to make it look authentic?

I disagree that the cert is genuine, the printing is too light and it has the 5 dot holes which in 83' should all be 6 dots. I think the punch is phoney and the actual cert is too. Thats my opinion.

There is a 78 and 81 cert in the same thread with 6 holes, did Rolex regress and roll back to a 5 hole in 83'? No, I dont think so.

 
 Respond to this message   

fumanku
(Login fumanku)
VRF Member
76.102.195.60

difference in 5 vs. 6 hole papers...

October 18 2011, 7:32 AM 

Hi Beever-

The 5 hole papers were in fact punched not in Geneva, but by Rolex USA. I do not think it was an intentional choice to be different, but you will notice that the 5 hole punched papers (the ones that are fully filled out) were always sold in the USA. They started with the "fat green border" papers around the 3 million s/n range, and are most prevalent with the later thinner green border papers, which are actually written in English, with the warranting party listed as "ROLEX USA", not "ROLEX GENEVE". I've noticed however, the watches that come with "double punched papers" are always 6 holes, even when sold in the USA.

Here are some pictures from my archive of sold watches that support this theory. Please keep in mind that a vast majority of the watches I sell are sourced from the public, in which case fake papers would be highly unlikey.


"FAT BORDER PAPER"
[linked image]
[linked image]




"ROLEX USA PAPER"
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]


 
 Respond to this message   

Roger
(Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director
86.146.148.234

Thank you Eric :) (nt)

October 18 2011, 8:24 AM 



---Perpetual Knowledge---

 
 Respond to this message   
Ez
(Login ezinternet)
24.192.86.154

5-hole - USA vs. ROW - Montre vs. Chronometer?

October 18 2011, 9:18 AM 

Trying to look for some logic ...

If the thought is that 5-hole vertical hole was USA punched, then would we expect in on USA paper, and so 5-hole punch on papers that say "Chronometer: as opposed to "Montre No:"?

So is 5-hole unlikely to be on a 572.01.250 like this one?

http://www.rolexephemera.com/Guarantees/green-small-v572-01-250.htm


 
 Respond to this message   

fumanku
(Login fumanku)
VRF Member
64.186.162.98

there was NO English language version of this type...

October 18 2011, 10:19 AM 

Thus, even watches sold in USA were in french.

 
 Respond to this message   

Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
69.22.100.207

Re: difference in 5 vs. 6 hole papers...

October 18 2011, 12:19 PM 

Eric im with you as in the last 20 years I have bought many sets for prices under what a box goes for these days and I have several with 5 holes from US ad's
Here is 1 I had
[IMG][linked image][/IMG]
Another
[IMG][linked image][/IMG]


 
 Respond to this message   
Beever.
(Login Beever.)
108.54.75.193

Nikkos, You are entitled to your opinion..

October 18 2011, 2:30 PM 

There will never be a definitive answer to all of this I am afraid. I do have a friend of mine who is/was a Rolex Dealer for 30 years who has about 200 certs in his hands from all of the watches he has had over the years and still has the papers, for whatever reason.

Some of them were misplaced and found, others were traded in against new watches. In any case, I am waiting to get my hands on them and try and catalog and photograph them to see if certain certs had 5 dots or 6 dots, US, European etc..

In the end, I have said that I think that 95% or more of the 5 dot papers are phoney and that a great many of them are punched OUTSIDE of the register box when they were supposed to be INSIDE the box. We are all under the assumption that 20,30 or even 40 years ago that people were drunk or stupid and only now we have the technology to get punched numbers squarely inside a box. That is BS, the machines had templates and they punched squarely in that box.

There were MILLIONS of Rolex'es produced with punched papers in the 70's and 80's and I highly doubt that so many of them are punched outside of the box. I also find it odd that so many of the "out of register" punches are of the 5 dot variety and even more of the 5 dot variety are not stamped or dated by the Jeweler.

I have drawn my own conclusions on all of this and everyone is entitled to draw their own. I will not purchase a 5 dot cert on any watch I am looking to buy and if I do I will be certain it is backed up with something else. I will not give a 5 dot cert any added value as I will deem it worthless, like a box sticker or chrono hang tag. I am not saying that NO 5 dots exist, just so few that it would be safer to pass on a 5 dot than pay a premium for one.

Thats my position on it.

 
 Respond to this message   
tuscanyrose
(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member
67.84.58.157

EB,if you like I can bring a batch of "5 dot" papers which I have had in a box since ...

October 18 2011, 3:05 PM 

I purchased with a lot of other stuff at an NAWCC show in 1999. they look just like the ones that were "hand punched", hanging chad, not centered, etc.
I do not have the time most of you fellows have to pursue this but if what I am gathering is correct,
all 5 dot papers are not correct?
If you are claiming this I must say you are totally wrong. I read what you posted and while there were people doing strange things like punching papers, faking dials, etc., these watches did not have the value, papers or not, back then so why would someone fake all of them?
honestly, you boys need to focus on the watch.
I really hate to say this but if someone many years ago punched a set of papers at a rolex dealership, or if someone did the exact same thing, same style, etc., would any of you know the difference? seriously?
I had this debate with JD with regard to watches and dials. for example:
what if a 6263, with a "newman serial", came with a "non newman" dial, and later someone popped a real appropriate newman dial in it, would that not be a "correct newman"?
same with a 666 or cream, or 16800 and the rest.
I am not in any way condoning what was seemingly going on with the eBayers selling that obviously faked stuff, but to state that 5 dot papers are not correct is just not so.
I have sold thousands of watches with papers over the years and having purchased a good number form people who bought them new, it is just not so.

I think everyone is freaked out over this because some will think (or know for sure depending on whether you bought from those people on eBay) that their collection is "tainted". I leave all the investigation work to those who have time for it but I for one will continue to buy and sell "5 dot, 6 dot, 7 dot, typed and handwritten papers and not change the normal pricing structure, as I am sure most other honest dealers will do.
I mean, really what rock are most of you under?
this has been going on for years, it is only now that someone got caught out there that everyone is going nuts. open papers are sold at most shows, ALL BRANDS!!!
Also, and many times open papers will come with a watch from an original owner. I am sure other people will attest to buying a watch with all the goodies and a set of open papers in the package? so what? it is a piece of papers and believe it or not, it will not survive many dives if you attach it to your DRSD and get them wet.
There are people may not be the kind of "fervent" collectors who need to have all parts of a watch, does that make them less of a collector? I have seen people come to watch shows and buy a set of papers for their 90's datejust, just to have them in their box.
yes, there are dishonest people and believe me, punched papers not punched 30 years ago is the least of the stuff collectors have to worry about when there are all the other deceptions just waiting for some maniac who "has to have his grail", and will send a western union so it does not get away.

Focus on the watch. that is what you wear. papers are just that, papers. nice to have but in the grand scheme of things...
JB

 
 Respond to this message   

Roger
(Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director
86.146.148.234

+1 (nt)

October 18 2011, 4:40 PM 



---Perpetual Knowledge---

 
 Respond to this message   

John Ireland
(Login figcar)
VRF Member
69.235.130.33

Bravo JB...it is all about the watches...the papers are just that...paper. nt.

October 18 2011, 8:47 PM 

nt

John Ireland

 
 Respond to this message   
Ty
(Login rootcanal)
VRF Contributing Member
173.20.55.187

For me- it IS about the watch AND the papers :-))

October 18 2011, 10:32 PM 


 
 Respond to this message   
tuscanyrose
(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member
69.125.19.205

Ty, I also love full set, all the goodies, but when push comes to shove, it's the watch...

October 19 2011, 3:57 AM 

that brings the money. goodies are just that, they enhance the watch.
As I said, I will not stop buying or selling full sets, or just watches with papers because someone caught a dealer doing stuff many greedy dishonest dealers/collectors do.
we do not shift gears so easily...

 
 Respond to this message   

Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
69.22.100.207

EB I am sorry but your wrong on this.

October 18 2011, 3:39 PM 

Like I told you when you asked me a while back. I bought 100's of watches for under a $1000 years ago from the hands of original owners. Most even had original sales receipts etc. Websites were not around and information was from watchmakers and jewelers and NOBODY cared or talked about boxes or papers then. Adding the words Tiffany to the dial and 2 tone conversions was the fakery of that era. The cert above I posted even came with a letter from Rolex NY after they lost the guys watch during service they gave him a new 1 and this was the cert with it.

(To say that 95% or more of the 5 dot papers are phoney)is not only false but reckless.


    
This message has been edited by greekbum from IP address 69.22.100.207 on Oct 18, 2011 4:07 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
tuscanyrose
(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member
67.84.58.157

I agree Nick...what about 6 dot US papers? are these fake or not correct?

October 18 2011, 3:45 PM 

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]


    
This message has been edited by tuscanyrose from IP address 67.84.58.157 on Oct 18, 2011 4:21 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
 
< Previous Page 1 2 3 4 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Contact

Vintage Rolex Forum and Vintage Rolex Market are not sponsored by, associated with and/or affiliated with Rolex, S.A. or Rolex USA or any respective subsidiaries or affiliates.  

Copyright The VRF, Inc. 2002 - 2017