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here are some punched loose real papers I bought in 1999

October 19 2011 at 10:49 AM
tuscanyrose  (Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member
from IP address

off center
hanging chad (not all holes punched all the way)
no dealer or date stamp, except on one where it is the persons name and address
all bottom right codes are correct
now, tell me, how can you differentiate these from ones that were punched and added to watches?
think about it, these cannot have been faked as who would go through the trouble and not add them to the watch? in addition, papers were not as coveted as they are now because there was much less value all around.
I am only trying to point out that we need to understand it will be IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference between these, which were punched a long time ago and those who did them yesterday.
there is no way.
sorry to burst anyones bubble but we have to be real here.

SOOOOOOOOOO, who is to say that if one of these papwers came with a 1655, and some cat got the right code and punched them himself, which would be wrong, if you do not know?

I couldn't help myself, this is why I am a riot at parties...

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(Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director

At last!!!

October 19 2011, 12:23 PM 

Proof that SHOUTING things doesn't make them true.

The 5 hole cert was never in doubt.

---Perpetual Knowledge---

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(no login)

I agree

October 19 2011, 12:24 PM 

it was never in doubt.

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(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member

I guess you never met my wife, huh Rog?

October 19 2011, 12:26 PM 


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(Login Mottts)


October 19 2011, 1:34 PM 

I tell you a story I have a pawnshop(boo). Some time ago my partner is inspecting a mid to high end sewing machine prior to lending money on it. So he checks this and checks that and then he sticks a blank piece of paper under a needle and wow I almost fell off my char after seeing result of this incredible, programable hole puncher...

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(Login BeaumontMillerII)
VRF Member


October 19 2011, 2:50 PM 

John with all respect to you what you are proposing is not necessary. All that is necessary is to show that a watch was purchased by a dealer at a show or on EBay without the guarantee papers. Then show that the same watch was sold with papers at a later date. I agree that you can't look at a piece of paper and tell when a whole was made in it. Hopefully as time passes more people will come forward and bring to light certain watches that they personally know of that were subsequently sold in this manner.

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(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member

with all due respect, and I mean that, who will "come forward"???

October 19 2011, 3:50 PM 

I KNOW there had to be people reading this that have bought watches from those people with "later punched" papers
you have to know they will not be able to return them. what do you think they will do?
as distasteful as it sounds, those watches will resurface somewhere and I am positive someone from thin forum will catch it, and expose it.
short of this, there is not much that will happen. the watch is still right.
what about adding boxes, tags, booklets in order to make a set? is this wrong?

please understand I am not condoning any of those doings, but in the real world all of this happens.
what will happen is the unquestionable; original owner packages will be available at a premium. the rest will be examined, up down and sideways, and sooner, rather than later, all the hullabaloo will just fade into the woodwork.
the watches will rise above all, which is how it should be. papers are great, no doubt, but , I think it will have little affect on anything as time goes by. buyers will be more aware, and that is always good. we cannot sweep it under the rug.

just more devils advocate:
what happens when someone gets hold of a dealer stamp? are we going to start examining ink? probably.
all this adds to the layers of collecting.
you cannot play the game scared. buy the watch, or buy the story that comes with it, whichever you prefer.
I like the watch. stories are just that, most of the time. in all my years I only bought one watch off a "little old lady", whose husband died and she did not know what she had.
lots of other stories, but there was only one little old lady.

I actually have it on youtube if you look...


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Richard Carver
(Premier Login VintageRolexForum)

Provenance is one of the things that brought Rolex collecting to maturity...

October 19 2011, 4:48 PM 

...collectors don't put large money into things they know nothing about, things they can't prove to someone else is the real thing. What makes an art object increase in value is the perception of investment potential. Once you get past us nerds who collect for the love of it there is a world of people who buy valuable things not only to enjoy but because they are a great place to put cash.

It wasn't that long ago vintage Rolex simply weren't in consideration as a top tier place for these people to put money. The internet changed all that. Frankly, places like the VRF (and there are many) brought stability, availability, knowledge and brand new blood to vintage Rolex collecting. How many people bought that first 5513 because they became comfortable through reading, studying and finding out who's who by coming to this forum?

COMEX no doubt brought the big money to Rolex collecting and once it was here it began looking at MOD, Daytonas, SD, Red subs, 1019s, 6542s, any number of collectibles and what made the non-experts force up the market for these watches? Provenance. One of the major reasons the big money came to COMEX is because of the intensive study that can account for every unit, the ability for a fake to be spotted instantly by any one of a dozen true experts. These investors will pop for 100k because they know beyond a shadow of a doubt they have bought the real thing.

With all due respect John, for you to say it's the watch, not the provenance is incredibly disingenuous. Not long ago papers were worth a couple hundred bucks over a watch without them, now papers run the cost up by a couple thousand dollars or more depending on the watch and for some investor/collectors they are priceless because they won't own a watch without them. Papers are the "beyond a shadow of a doubt" factor to non-expert collectors.

This fake paper scandal is going to reverberate for a long time, we are closer to the beginning of this mess than the end and obviously you want to protect your market by pretending fake papers don't matter but to the people putting hard cash out for vintage Rolex it matters very much.


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(Login Beever.)

Very Well Said Mr Carver..

October 19 2011, 5:05 PM 

I actually saved that because it was so accurate and well written. I completely agree with everything you said.

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(Login tuscanyrose)
VRF Contributing Member

time will tell, Rich. When you say...

October 19 2011, 6:55 PM 

when you say "papers are the beyond a shadow of a doubt" factor for the non expert, maybe so. but how reliable can that "factor" be? ever buy a watch from a non expert and the papers are for a ladies OP and not the two tone sub he has i the box?
it is a false sense of security for some who did not take the time to learn properly.
I never said good provenance sets will fall by the wayside, I said the opposite. what will go away is all the hype. ok, I will put a IMHO before it! lol
believe it of not, there are people who collect, and collect BIG who do not care, nor have any interest in what goes on here. while I have always and will continue to make others aware of the VRF, some just do not have the time, nor the interest in these forums.
that said, as far as protecting my interest or business, it really makes no difference. it sucks, but this stuff has been going on for years, and now just because it is known on VRF, the world of these papers will not cease...just here and among our members.
the point I was trying to make is how do you differentiate the real punch from 40 years ago from the one done yesterday, and obviously you cannot. is this good for anyone? no not really. is it a reality? yes, it sure is.
do I wish it were not so? of course. it would make things much easier, but we as collectors like the challenge of finding something that is without question the real deal.
there are many of those sets out there and as I said, they will always warrant a premium.
remember the old days when you did not have dial archives and were not able to "ask the experts" before making a buy?
the world of collecting is just a wee bit diluted IMO.

just curious but let's ask the membership how many of the new blank rolex cards are out there at shows, blank and ready to have whatever number filled in. people do it if they can make an extra buck. sad but true.
does this mean collectors will not take papers into account? as I said, time will tell.

there is a solution though, collect Patek!!! lol! as usual, it is the policy of the almighty Rolex who with their crappy archives and "no vintage allowed" service policy that allows all this to occur, just so some guy will go to an AD and pay retail.
in the words of my trusted consigliere, "don't hate the player, hate the game"

these last few days have been interesting. it was nice to see the "old guard' stand together, old as some of our asses are.
I for one, will be much more careful as a rule, but if a watch with US 5 dot punched papers shows up, I am still a buyer, as long as the watch is tight.
Don't worry! there will still be plenty of juice for the "nerd collectors" to paw over, I can see it now:
measuring the dot holes, the dot proximity, the new "DOT ARCHIVE!!! Wait, the ink analysis!!! hold the press, the dealer stamp and date stamp archives!!!

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