"Being one of the first to see the new generation redone / non original some while ago, I bought one for further study. After examine the details of the dial by picture on the computer, the print was as good as perfect. I got even more concerned after I saw it in the flesh at Miami Watch Show. Besides me, almost everybody that was looking up close, believed it was good, the scoop of the show, haha!"
Are you sure you weren't the one who thought you'd hit the jackpot and found an original 3-6-9 red depth dial which had been wrongly labelled a redial? I don't believe that "almost everyone...believed it was good".....I certainly thought otherwise as soon as I saw your original photos on VRF; nothing to do with the gilt printing, I've just never seen an original gilt dial from that period which is so "flat" and characterless.
I see you've deleted the (same) photos from your original February post on VRF:
.. I would say 98%! Only the best can pick out the 2% that will tell the real story, IMHO. The usual font, positioning, etc analysis will only go so far in these so called new gen redials. They have improved by leaps and bounds.Simple to understand; computer generated images are used.
You have mentioned the overall "incorrectness" ( "Flatness"). Yes, that is the only way to tell. A dial must show it's age, and the character that goes with it. Patina, remember? Theses dials are for watches which nearly 60 years old now. Even a NOS original correct dial of that age will show condition changes; deep shiny black becomes dull grey black, corrosion marks, degradation of the lacquer, etc, all add to the "character" and lively look of the real McCoy.
The surer way to catch these dials is to focus on the patina.The new redials look like they were made yesterday. Of course; they were! So I always keep way from minty dials on battered cases.
I think that if he ended up with something that he thought was legit at first and then it turned out to be redone that his public testimony and educational writeup is more than enough of a gesture to show that he is a totally awesome person and great man to say the least.
He could have just tucked that thing away or traded it off (AS REFINISHED OF COURSE) and never mentioned a word to the masses publicly but he chose to enlighten us all and really doesn't need to Tie Himself to the Whipping Post.
philipp has nothing at all to further explain...he has done quite a thorough job already. he is a huge asset to our collector community and deserves thanks, not criticism.
I too frequent both forums and find them equally informative.
OP, with "friends" like you who needs enemies.
I have enjoyed many hours of discovering what Phillip has been doing and have learny a lot. He appears to have made one mistake and suddenly you become judge & jury.
I find very little use for threads like this, especially when Phillips reputation goes without saying.
(Premier Login bullibeer) VRF Contributing Member 82.161.142.237
my 2 ct....
July 31 2012, 8:34 AM
Dear Ian,
i don't get the full statement of this....
When Philipp bought the watch and posted it a while a go i visited him and had a deep look at the watch...
At that point Philipp did not buy the watch as 'BUY of the century'... but i think more as a gamble/and educational object.. as the dial showed signs of 'WRONG' but also signs of 'SHIT IT MIGHT BE OK'...
I louped it 30 minutes.. next to other period big crowns etc.... and indeed it showed immediately that it is kind of flat. The indexes are flat... the whole dial seems flat indeed at first. But when you loop the gilt.. it shows the wear of the old gilt dials. I could not see the difference in gilt print next to 2 other old big crowns. The structure on the gilt i speak about.. the patina.
This dial was not MINT.. and showed patina in structure. Main concern for me then where the indexes and gilt around it. Indexes to sharp and flat.
And for me then the main point was the sharpness of the print. But really you needed to look very hard.. as the typo was very good. But then we also talked about the printing prices then.. as back then (i made a post about it with images a while ago)... the print is done by a 'stamp'... and it wears in time. The printing prices is not a mathematical copy... it's about pressure, fluid, climate, wear of print of xxx-copies,.. etc... which can effect the result.
So there was no final answer then.
Philipp told me then, that he bought it to also examine it... as either it was big luck... or something which is so close to be shown in the open.... and he wanted to share it if proven to be wrong. As he did right now.
So i don't really see your point in this.. as he clearly stated his intentions back then already.
As also it seems that the back of the dial showed some details that are scary.
For me.... the dial felt 'wrong' when i had the watch in my hand. Kind of synthetical.. but mainly because of the lume.. and a bit because of the feel of the surface of the plate.
So it might have been a 'fake',... or a redone dial... or a 're-lume' even.... i could not tell for 100% when i had it in my hands for more then 30 minutes. And i know of more well respected people who couldn't...
But believe me .. it was less obvious 'LIVE' then on the images. Many people would have been fooled ...
And for me... there was also the doubt as some of the details are 'so' correct or close, it makes you think 'maybe'....
Even in a 1 on 1 comparison with other BC's. Others where off... and the general feeling was 'no-go' for me.
So i don't see the direction you feel Philipp took the subject... as for me he was always clear about it...
And i am happy we are able to discuss this dial now.. as it really get's close... and i am sure even closer.
Which is really dangerous for our hobby.
Provenance and history of a watch is getting more and more important...
Very high end radials out there? Are they limited only to BCs? Gilts? What?who is perpetuating them and what models is most likely? Are they commissioned one offs or are they readily out there? Just my luck I would save for my dream watch for half a decade to get a redial.
