the black ghost ROC Paul Newman dial, the picsOctober 16 2014 at 8:53 AM
jatucka (rob) (Login jatucka)
from IP address 126.96.36.199
ok guys, i've just received the permission from Christie's for to post the pics
so we will be able, maybe, in to understand more about this Dial
the T Swiss T
a Panda PN (in Italy we call this batch MK 1.5)
the main print
please keep in mind that White over Black is always "fatter" than Black over White
about the halo
you can be able in to see the halo only in specific conditions, under an incident light and with the Dial inclined in some specific positions
as already wrote, we already saw odd things (like, for example, the PN Ghost/Erased Daytona)
i dont want to give any kind of judgment, any opinion
you have your own eyes
cheers from Italy
edit for typo
|This message has been edited by jatucka from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Oct 16, 2014 9:33 AM|
(Premier Login VintageRolexForum)
Thanks for the pics....
|October 16 2014, 9:13 AM |
Again here is Ben's original pic unedited and at an angle to see the "halo" around the text and coronet, as well as where the DAYTONA previously was.
I don't necessarily think we will get everyone here to agree wether is real or fake, but at least the facts are provided so people can draw their own conclusions.
"I don't necessarily think we will get everyone here to agree wether is real or fake"
|October 16 2014, 9:25 AM |
"I don't necessarily think we will get everyone here to agree wether is real or fake, but at least the facts are provided so people can draw their own conclusions."
well said Eric !
again, please keep in mind that White over Black is different from Black over White
cheers from Italy
|October 16 2014, 10:17 AM |
Thanks for the photos - these should help others make a proper assessment either way.
What is most interesting to me is the texture of the dial looks very different in your photos compared to Ben's. His appear very textured where yours are much more even.
"Ben's appear very textured where yours are much more even""
|October 16 2014, 10:39 AM |
|October 16 2014, 10:18 AM |
The two images together in a .gif
|October 16 2014, 10:23 AM |
Wow....thats very Hypnotic.......... G.
(Premier Login VintageRolexForum)
Brandon...thanks for this!
|October 16 2014, 10:53 AM |
Now that's fabulous for comparison purposes !
|October 18 2014, 6:26 AM |
For me the most interesting Thread this year....
|October 16 2014, 11:28 AM |
....Many Thanks for your Input Roberto and all included members.
Can't wait to see the watch in geneva.....
at least ..
|October 16 2014, 11:40 AM |
T SWISS T , counters numbers and other printings look correct.
would like to see a bigger pic of the SINGER punch.
probably it's an " instalment printing plan " made with some time between each " payment " ... LOL LOL
the " erasing " theory is very unlikely to me ( very difficult to work with leaving any sign of evidence ..
altough the black paint is more covering ).
this point would be much clear only checking the watch " live "
Removal of Daytona
|October 16 2014, 12:23 PM |
Nice clean pictures . First image ....If you look carefully at the 6 o'clock register ( 12 indicator and the 2 square and line registers on each side)
I think I can see some paint loss/ fading here on the register markers just below where the Daytona signature
would have been on a non oyster PN
This indicates to me some removal occurred. If you can agree to this than removal also may have occurred else where.
It has be done..
|October 16 2014, 12:36 PM |
I number of years ago I saw a PN non oyster with a red 24 hour track added to the dial
by the original owner . The track was removed , and dial was in original state.
The original paint structure of the PN dial , I believe , allows some paint removal ...anyone willing to put it to the test?
|October 16 2014, 12:58 PM |
My guess is that the halo is produced from the pad balloon itself. Typically in the pad printing process, the balloon will pick up the ink from an etch plate, and then placed on top of the dial. When that happens, there is some (albeit, very little pressure applied to that specific area of the dial as the balloon is compressed.
After the first dial is printed, the balloon is "cleaned" before it picks up the next application of paint from the etched plate. The "cleaning" process usually involves pressing the pad balloon onto a sticky surface, like a large piece of 3M scotch tape. Through surface tension and having a greater affinity to stick to the tape than the balloon, the pain residue will stick to the clean piece of tape as well as any minute dust particles.
But the tape itself will contain certain amounts of chemicals that make it sticky. Now on a brand new blank dial, the balloon presses against the entire dial.. If there was any residue associated with the cleaning/tap agent, it would be pressed out towards the edge of the dial, or even on the outer rim of the plate that is holding the dial blank.. this makes sense because the greatest amount of pressure will be applied on the outer edges of compressed portion of the pad.
In this particular dial, I suspect a "mini" pad was used to print the ROC letters alone. The halo was thus a remant of that mini pad printing process. This would lead me to believe that this was done AFTER the 5 minute markers were applied
|October 16 2014, 1:25 PM |
hope it is OK to spoil Robertos picture
just some levels adjusted and sharpened
|This message has been edited by banzaff from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Oct 16, 2014 1:28 PM|
forget dial granularity, stamps on back, t swiss t format, is the repair possible ....etc
|October 16 2014, 1:35 PM |
pretty much everybody who knows the subject agrees the dial is a correct 6262/4 that has been altered ...
the ONLY debate is whether it was altered in the 1970's officially or 2014 to deceive....the question is WHEN.
the simple answer is that it impossible (without serious scientific intervention i would imagine)....to know WHEN.
those who want to sell it have an interest in the view being 1970's, can we really blame them ? ..even though there is no corroborating evidence at all to support this is the case.
those who think it was done last year can not answer why it would be done as ROC , not the obvious RCO as that choice is totally illogical.....personally i think the most logical explanation for me is that this is the cliche they had access to so they had no choice. if getting access to the cliche was the starting point then the single most profitable way to use it would be to make a black newman,
thats where we are.
looking at the pics , or the watch in person will not help answer the question of WHEN.
|This message has been edited by jedly1 from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Oct 16, 2014 1:43 PM|
if the question is "when", you suppose that "where" is in Rolex, right?
|October 16 2014, 1:44 PM |
i do agree with you concerning the "when", it is an important question
but concerning the "where", looking at the pics, it is really difficult to think that the "where" could be out from Rolex/Singer (or Singer/Rolex, LOL)
cheers from Italy
no....i don't I'm afraid .... the font is very good
|October 16 2014, 1:50 PM |
so could be the singer plate ...that doesn't mean it was done by them. or mean it was done a long time ago.
but we already know the prototypes have left ..so what else.
it could be singer/rolex of course....
so we get back to where we were months ago Rob .......maybe ...but at this level ...is maybe good enough ?
|This message has been edited by jedly1 from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Oct 16, 2014 1:56 PM|
VRF Contributing Member
I'm not so sure about that Roberto..
|October 16 2014, 2:08 PM |
Just now i'm looking at your big resolution scans again and what I noticed is that the 5 minute markers are not perfectly positioned. With other words, they have been removed from the dial and then placed back carefully as it seems. Then next you can clearly see now is that the luminous dots on the 5 minute markers are not the ones made by Rolex when it got originally lumed. So why would Singer / Rolex do this I wonder if it was a left over 6262/6264 dial which should be transformed to a Oyster dial? Further, as I said from the beginning, the stain or halo as you call is has been added with a mini pad as Bane explain us so perfectly up here, making it clear there are 2 print, 1 old and 1 new.
Ok let's summarize what we have here:
- the dial surface got altered and red Daytona got removed.
- 5 min markers have been removed.
- the luminous has been relumed.
- Rolex ROC logo has been printed with mini pad.
- all over patina is not matching if this would be a left over dial where back in the days the logo got transferred.
Now again, where is the logic / common sense / costs efficiency for Singer & Rolex, if they just could have added "Oyster" on this left over 6262/6264 dial??
I just don't believe all this effort makes sense. With other words, if the ROC print wasn't so perfect, everybody would say it's not ok.
For me personally that indicates that I think now that this ROC print has not been added by Rolex nor Singer.
do you mean the black index, the "cavalieri"?
|October 16 2014, 2:20 PM |
dont you see the Dial's back ?
dont you know that the "cavalieri" move, in the years ?
if you are talking about the black 5min "cavalieri", find another PN with all the "cavalieri" perfectly centered ...
all of them move in the time
and relumed, how can you tell that it is relumed without to see it in person ?
you know my friend, i dont give any opinion concerning the originality of this Dial, i wrote it several times
i just like to study and to understand
what i dont like is to be "against" regardless
this attitude affect the knowledge, i think
cheers from Italy