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Problems with seller after purchase and payment, before shipment: seller changed his mind.

November 1 2017 at 8:44 PM

Ellepi  (Login ellepi)
VRF Member
from IP address 38.127.112.130

Dear Vrf pals,
I wrote to ask your suggestions .
Yesterday, while on a holiday in Usa, I found a very interesting watch from a local dealer. Price was high ( about Us$ 40k) but very good for the watch. The seller probably did not realize the watch was a collectable piece valued over 60k and so did I .
Please note: I paid his asking price .
We signed a sale receipt with all the infos and serial number of the watch ( model number was not correct ) , I gave him hand-hand a cash advanced payment of about 10% and ordered my bank to wire the balance of 90% ; considering the wire would take 2-3 days, we decided to have the watch delivered to my hotel the next destination city in my Usa trip.

Today the seller contacts me, telling strange stories: he did not realize it was a expensive and rare watch, that he promised the watch to another guy, that his supplier wants the watch back, and so on bla bla bla.

Offering me only refund and telling me he will not send the watch.
I replied I want the watch I paid and I will be firm. The seller did not change his position.

What would you do? I really want to get the watch I paid for, but I don’t want either to be forced to file a lawsuit, have money gone and no watch in my wrist while waiting for the judge’s decision.



    
This message has been edited by ellepi from IP address 38.127.112.130 on Nov 1, 2017 8:45 PM


 
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Roger
(Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director
79.73.137.173

Well it was 33% under priced...

November 2 2017, 5:22 AM 

so lucky the seller found out just in time.

It would of been nice to have got a $20K head start but a shame for the seller.

Everything is now back in order i would say.

 
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Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
72.185.205.143

I feel sorry for you

November 2 2017, 8:50 PM 

I feel sorry for you. You are dealing with a bad character person.The low of the low he broke his word and contract to go for more $. Any who agree with what he did are just like him and i would avoid them also. He has your money and the watch and wants to refund as he thinks today the watch is worth more. I don't know how many times i have sold something only to get offered more even seconds latter. Your word is everything you break it your shit. Sorry guys when you make a deal its a deal bottom line. You paid you deserve the watch end of story. And for all those that think he bought it cheap etc....It could have gone the other way what if he found out he paid to much? Saw cheaper elsewhere would the seller refund based on that? No. Whoever it is my advise avoid at all costs doing business with them.Get your money or your watch. Life is too short

 
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Roger
(Premier Login fantastictime)
VRF Managing Director
79.73.137.36

I totally agree in a collector environment...

November 3 2017, 1:40 AM 

from peer to peer and yes one dodgy back step and your reputation is mud.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This deal was between 2 strangers. One knew the value and one didnt.

A few hours later the sellers education matched that of the buyer and the deal was over.


The buyer is not annoyed that he missed a watch, he is annoyed he missed out on $20,000 as we all would be however im sure most of us would of been expecting problems as each minute ticked away before delivery.




 
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Nikos
(Login greekbum)
VRF Member
72.185.205.143

The seller is a dealer?

November 4 2017, 8:45 PM 

The seller is a dealer is he not? If he's a dealer and he priced the watch 20k to low as i am reading i can only imagine the poor soul he got it from. What did he offer them? Top dollar he must have claimed and then we all know the story well. I still say the seller should honor his deal. Can you imagine if an old lady 3 weeks ago went to a i pay top dollar dealer . You know the ones that write books etc have credibility and sold her late husband Paul newman daytona for the dealers top offer of say 10k. He told her thats all its worth and she's lucky to be getting that also. She reads in the newspaper that a similar watch sold for 17million. When she went back to him would he give it back to her cause he underpaid her? No way.......... Its been my experience that dealers who want every drop of the deal really don't pay much. Most look to buy super cheap then ask sky high. When they find out they sold to cheap thy cry worse than a baby with no milk......


    
This message has been edited by greekbum from IP address 72.185.205.143 on Nov 4, 2017 8:48 PM


 
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Marco
(Login Mardam)
VRF Member
93.36.191.242

In Italy the seller should give back twice the amount received

November 2 2017, 6:36 AM 

Cheers,
Marco


    
This message has been edited by Mardam from IP address 93.36.191.242 on Nov 2, 2017 6:36 AM


 
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Ellepi
(Login ellepi)
VRF Member
38.127.112.130

It was not a deposit .... I just paid full price and he wants to cancel the sale....

November 2 2017, 7:00 AM 

It was not a deposit ( caparra in Italy) to reserve the watch.... I just paid full sale price and then he wants to cancel the sale and send me back the money.

For my knowledge, I have a sale receipt, I paid full price —> the watch is mine and property has just been transferred


    
This message has been edited by ellepi from IP address 38.127.112.130 on Nov 2, 2017 7:02 AM


 
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Marco
(Login Mardam)
VRF Member
93.36.191.242

I totally agree with you. I thought the bank wire wasn't gone yet

November 3 2017, 12:41 AM 

Nt

 
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Robby
(Login southtexas111)
VRF Member
107.77.72.26

Unfortunate position

November 4 2017, 5:31 PM 

I agree with Nick that the seller is of low character. I was raised differently—a deal is a deal.

Is he the original owner, or did he recently purchase/acquire this watch from a third party?

In my opinion, you will have a difficult time enforcing your claim. While you had an agreement and made a pledge to pay, the full funds (as I understand) are not yet in the hands of the seller...only the deposit. You may have a hard time proving how you’ve been damaged if he unwound the deal and both of you are “whole”. As others have noted, even if you were to win, it would be a Pyrrhic victory as you’ll spend way more for your victory than the current market value of the watch—plus it will take you years to work your watch through our court system (ask me how I know!!).

In any case, I wish you luck and sorry for your troubles.


 
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Richard Carver
(Login Richard.Carver)
VRF Emeritus
70.123.115.234

I don't see how you can enforce the sale...

November 2 2017, 10:45 AM 

...a lawsuit will be massively expensive and what if he sells the watch before you can find a lawyer to take the case. What will be your point? Does he owe you 4000, 40,000 or 60,000? Don't let anger make you make a mistake. Take your 4k, call him some dirty names and move on.

 
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brockburst
(Login brockburst)
173.252.128.1

You have zero basis for a lawsuit (nt.)

November 2 2017, 11:52 AM 


 
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Ellepi
(Login ellepi)
VRF Member
38.127.112.130

Could be, could not be. I fully paid for it and I have a sale receipt

November 2 2017, 12:45 PM 

Inho There are all the basis of a lawsuit.
I fully paid for it and I have a sale receipt stating price and serial number of the watch.
If some Us friends are familiar with small legal issues like this, please let me know.

Btw, I am checking out all options, including taking my money back and forget this sad story . What is frustrating is that watch was going to be a family present for a special family moment. I won't ever find another one like that.

 
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Paul
(Login GMTKiwi)
VRF Member
210.86.87.136

Ummmm ..... I might disagree ...

November 2 2017, 2:12 PM 


Contract law can be relatively simple. The way I see Ellepi's situation, there's a fairly tight contract in place ... documented ... signed by two willing and able parties ... no duress ... clearly time-bound ... with a transfer completed of the all important 'consideration' (a lack of the latter being a very commonly exploited loop-hole when a seller wants to back out of a deal).

I've been in exactly the same position with a motor vehicle transaction. For my deal, I'd paid the seller's full asking price on the spot, and signed off a very tight contract that would see me collect the car later that week. I turned up to collect the car as planned to be told our deal was off unless I was prepared to match another buyer's offer. The seller had already cashed my cheque and when I wouldn't budge, he simply handed me a fat envelope returning my funds in cash. I argued ... and argued ... and argued ... while the seller just stood there stony-faced. Ultimately I walked away, didn't pursue things any further and years later it still annoys me.

Ellepi - obviously you have options available to you including legal channels or simply taking the moral high-ground directly with the seller. You may face a stumbling block based on the fact that the item was significantly down-valued when the trade was completed. Assuming the seller backed out of the trade upon learning he had under-valued his watch when setting the price, he has an opportunity to claim a pricing error that for him negates any intention to create legal relations. Kinda like saying " ... Silly me. Of course I made a mistake on the price tag ..." and sometimes that can be all that's needed to back out of a deal.

And my own moral high-ground ... we all like a bargain but on this occassion, I side with Roger somewhat. Perhaps, everything is now back in order.



    
This message has been edited by GMTKiwi from IP address 210.86.87.136 on Nov 2, 2017 2:40 PM


 
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fatboyharris
(Login fatboyharris)
VRF Member
151.229.167.68

You forgot to mention entering into a contract in Good faith and Fair dealing

November 3 2017, 2:01 AM 

The converse being entering into a contract in Bad Faith

The fraudulent deception of another person; the intentional or malicious refusal to perform some duty or contractual obligation.
Bad faith is not the same as prior judgment or Negligence. One can make an honest mistake about one's own rights and duties, but when the rights of someone else are intentionally or maliciously infringed upon, such conduct demonstrates bad faith.
The existence of bad faith can minimize or nullify any claims that a person alleges in a lawsuit. Punitive Damages, attorney's fees, or both, may be awarded to a party who must defend himself or herself in an action brought in bad faith.
Bad faith is a term commonly used in the law of contracts and other commercial dealings, such as Commercial Paper, and in Secured Transactions. It is the opposite of Good Faith, the observance of reasonable standards of fair dealings in trade that is required of every merchant.


regards

John


    
This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 151.229.167.68 on Nov 3, 2017 2:08 AM


 
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Ellepi
(Login ellepi)
VRF Member
38.127.112.130

Richard, he has all my money (40k) but he wants to refund and cancel sale

November 2 2017, 12:47 PM 


 
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Robbe1675
(Login Robbe1675)
VRF Member
86.90.136.46

If you do not have an invoice in your name, it will be very difficult

November 2 2017, 3:06 PM 

otherwise it is his word against yours.
Even if you paid.
He can always say that you did a downpayment of 40k on the now 60k watch...

 
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Ellepi
(Login ellepi)
VRF Member
38.127.112.130

I have sale receipt in my name double signed with price agreed and serial number

November 2 2017, 3:32 PM 

Nt

 
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Michele
(Login seacliff)
96.239.54.81

Re: I have sale receipt in my name double signed with price agreed and serial number

November 2 2017, 5:09 PM 

Sales taxes were added ?

 
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Robbe1675
(Login Robbe1675)
VRF Member
86.90.136.46

I am not familiar with US law, but

November 3 2017, 1:47 AM 

in The Netherlands the transfer of ownership is done with an invoice, as a deed of ownership.
In the small print it normally says that ownership transfer is withheld when the item has not been paid in full.
In other words, the process of transfer is completed only when the invoice is paid in full.

Delivery of the article is not part of transfer of ownership.
In the Netherlands he would now have a watch in possesion which is officially yours. But refusing to hand it over.

In the US this might be slightly different, even if I do not think so, but lawyers please chime in.

 
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fatboyharris
(Login fatboyharris)
VRF Member
151.229.167.68

Title may transfer at various times in the process often subject

November 3 2017, 1:51 AM 

to the terms and condition of sale if expressly referred to eg it may be a condition that title may transfer only upon receipt of cleared funds and so on.

kind regards

John


    
This message has been edited by fatboyharris from IP address 151.229.167.68 on Nov 3, 2017 1:52 AM


 
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