Not quite sure how I stumbled across this website, but just thought I'd add a post.

Does the BWMA really think that it is possible to preserve imperial measures for ever? Sure, we can drag our feet and make the changeover drag on for decades, whereas other countries managed it in a few years, but surely no-one can be in any doubt that eventually Britain will be completely metric.

So why waste everyones time and the governments money by delaying the inevitable? Of course imperial measures won't be lost from everyday speech for a long time to come, but that should be the only place for them now. To persist indefinately with a mixture of two systems is utterly ridiculous.

I think it is a complete embarassment to our great country, that we can't make a proper changeover to metric. It simply shows how weak our sense of national identity is, that we feel we have to cling on to something like the imperial system to keep our Britishness. We should be fighting to keep the things that really matter instead.

I believe they call them "trolls" in net-speak.

>>> "Does the BWMA really think that it is possible to preserve imperial measures for ever?

Our purpose is to preserve the element of choice. Whether imperial lasts forever depends on whether people want to use it. We believe that, based on the strict merits of the two systems, the imperial system will outlast the metric system. This is for a range of reasons, including ease of use, rational units, and logical divisions.

With respect, that is not your aim. The aim of the BWMA is to promote the use of an outdated and increasingly unofficial system.

Notions of 'choice' are a convenient add-on; the BWMA did not oppose mandatory use of the imperial system prior to 1967 nor does it currently suppport the repeal of all weights and measures law which stops freedom of choice.

"Re: objective is to preserve the freedom of choice"

having been educated only in metric, as has anyone under the age of about 40 (?) should I not have the right to see roadsigns in the only measurements I have ever been taught? Of course I know roughly how far a yard, mile etc is, but I would be far more comfortable with m/km. And as for height/width restriction signs I don't take much notice as I have never driven a vehicle other than a car, but if I was driving a high vehicle and came across a height restriction sign in feet/inches, I wouldn't have a clue whether I could fit under the bridge. I am sure this would be the case for most young people (I'm 30 by the way) Yards are easy to understand because they are virtually the same as metres, so there is no problem - whether you say 200yds down the road, or 200m down the road is just a figure of speech.

I accept that many people prefer imperial measurements, but in the interests of safety surely the measurement should be used that is understood by the majority of people

<<
Imperial will outlast the metric system...
This is for a range of reasons, including ease of use, rational units, and logical divisions.
>>

Dream on.

What on earth is logical about a 'system' with things like 14 lbs to stone.

Ah! He wasn't strictly a troll!

"having been educated only in metric, as has anyone under the age of about 40 (?) "

WRONG ! And showing your age! Imperial was re-introduced in the early 90's for various reasons, most of which you will dislike!

"should I not have the right to see roadsigns in the only measurements I have ever been taught? "

Ask someone the age of 12 or so how fast their dad's car can go - be ready for a shock.

[interjection: Do you actually *LIVE* in the UK, Andy?]

"and came across a height restriction sign in feet/inches, I wouldn't have a clue whether I could fit under the bridge"

LOL !

"I accept that many people prefer imperial measurements"

"Many" is an understatement btw.
P.S. I'm roughly your age and I find your post amusingly bizzare.

I'm looking forward to another one, perhaps denoting that "nobody under the age of 40 understands pounds and ounces" or something.

Classic stuff this

[rubs hands]

<<
"having been educated only in metric, as has anyone under the age of about 40 (?) "

WRONG ! And showing your age! Imperial was re-introduced in the early 90's for various reasons, most of which you will dislike!
>>

I left school a couple of years ago and as far as I know, having done maths, chemistry and biology, there was no imperial on the syllabus. For mechanics questions in maths, km/h were used as well as m/s. In fact the only time I remember using imperial measurements was for conversions IMPERIAL TO METRIC. For example, a speed might have been given as 50 miles per hour and we had to convert it to m/s in order to perform a calculation of some type.

BTW, I also understand metres rather than feet on road signs. For example, which is easier: 15 ft or 4.5 metres? Oh, and why not 5 yds instead of 15 ft.

SteveH is referring to the primary school syllabus, which includes *brief* references to imperial measurements, not because they are a good thing but because the cultural position has made it necessary.

As far as a sign goes, IMO 15 feet is a big number and more difficult to visualise than 4.5 metres. This is contrary to one of the 'benefits' of the imperial system which is that "six ounces of cheese actually sounds like some cheese, unlike 170g which is just some meaningless big number".

OK, here you go Steve..

First of all, I didn't realise that imperial was being taught again - good idea though, as its clearly going to be around for a while longer.

"Ask someone the age of 12 or so how fast their dad's car can go - be ready for a shock."

I certainly would be amazed if the kid gave the answer in km/h. Give me some credit. Virtually everyone (any age) in Britain is used to mph, because thats what we use.

"nobody under the age of 40 understands pounds and ounces"

well, I don't think many people do, ask a few random people how many ounces in a pound - you might be in for a shock there!

"and came across a height restriction sign in feet/inches, I wouldn't have a clue whether I could fit under the bridge"

I think you're seriously underestimating the number of people for whom this would be a problem. Just because people use feet/inches for heights of people, doesn't mean you can easily visualise longer distances in feet.

I think many people might use the term "feet" but when it comes to actually visualising the distance would struggle. For example I was round at a friends house the other day, and he had been telling me that he's got a 30foot garden. When I got there his garden was at least 30m long. The term "foot" may be more widely used in the english language, but when it comes to understanding the distance, a lot of people haven't got a clue. No I didn't bring this up with my friend, I'm not that sad!

"ask a few random people how many ounces in a pound - you might be in for a shock there! "

Ask any overweight female teenager ideally what weight they'd like to lose - I can assure you that they won't use grammes. They will also equate half a stone with 7 pounds with no issues. Also anyone who uses the kitchen scales at home is likely to use ounces. Now I realise that I will be flame grilled by the metric fundamentalists here because, indeed, they will not - but I am purely talking about ordinary people. Personally I could work in both, but I've settled on imperial.

"Just because people use feet/inches for heights of people, doesn't mean you can easily visualise longer distances in feet"

Again, believe me, the lorries in this internationally known huge firm that I work for are stamped in feet/in.
Also if you said "and there's nelson on top of his 300ft column" you'd getter a better response than the metre equiv. This is also the reason why even politically correct radio 1 will have the news say "he fell 200ft to his death" (please no-one tell me its because 200ft "sounds" big and newsworthy).

I think the mention of "why not use yards" was aired. In short we in the UK tend to use yards for distance and feet/in for height. Here's a poss (IMHO) reason why: look at the 3-2-1 marker boards on a motorway - the entire distance is 300yards, however it does not look very long looked at laterally. You'd probably find it weird imagining that its almost 1000ft - ie take that relatively short looking 300yds length that you next see as your whizzing down the motorway and put it upright - you are left with a height that is technically almost as tall as an official minimum mountain height! It's usage (yds vs feet) I believe dictate our visual scale.

End of sermon!

Some GCSE stuff - note that coversion is taught BOTH ways.

Even the BBC has to adhere to curricula requirements!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/shape/measuresrev3.shtml

Anti-fraction fascists (AFF's) are gonna hate that last post!

"Also anyone who uses the kitchen scales at home is likely to use ounces. Now I realise that I will be flame grilled by the metric fundamentalists here because, indeed, they will not - but I am purely talking about ordinary people. Personally I could work in both, but I've settled on imperial."

My younger brother uses metric quantities when reading recipes. There is a simple reason why: that is how they are given in the book.

"There is a simple reason why: that is how they are given in the book"

Correction: "*THAT* book"

If you buy a set of kitchen scales that use the balance with dish on one side and loose weights on the other they come only with imperial weights. You can send off for metric ones using an order form provided in the box, however.

<<
If you buy a set of kitchen scales that use the balance with dish on one side and loose weights on the other they come only with imperial weights. You can send off for metric ones using an order form provided in the box, however.
>>

If there were free choice, the weights woudl either be separate (and the same price!) or two sets of weights would be included in the box.

"If you buy a set of kitchen scales that use the balance with dish on one side and loose weights on the other they come only with imperial weights. You can send off for metric ones using an order form provided in the box, however."

Correction: "*THAT* set of kitchen scales"

"If there were free choice, the weights woudl either be separate (and the same price!) or two sets of weights would be included in the box."

If BWMA had its way there would be some iron ore and a welding kit in the box!

All the scales had imperial only sets with them.

Although you did have the:-


*C*H*O*I*C*E*

to send off for the foreign set if you felt you needed to use them.

SteveH over-uses this word.

Suggest he reads a few other posts where the viablity and sincerity of this are challenged.

<<
to send off for the foreign set if you felt you needed to use them.
>>

How much would they cost? For starters, there is teh cost of the stamp, presumably there is the cosat of postage and packing and almost certainly the cost of the weights themselves.

As a special gift to ARM for your mile-ennium let me tell you that you better start ammending your figures- BACKWARDS!
Have had the recent pleasure of spending a day in a busy British park owned by Her very "imperial" Majesty herself. All signs ( many which had been butchered by vigilantes) are now looking flash in metre distances and all traces of glue and carbunkles removed. Oops, except for one, which doesn't say m for metre, it says " 1 km "
happy Millenium, 'ARMless.

ARM: Get to it chaps!

We can't keep having mile-enniums! We'll run out of champagne!

look forward to the day all road signs get changed (hope it is in my lifetime) what are you gonna do? sabotage all of them?

you should all be ashamed of yourselves, you think you are standing up for your country, but really you are letting it down.

When that metrication happens, the 'armies' of ARM should all be arrested and have the book thrown at them for their dangerous activities.

Then of course we would apparently have the right to destroy all imperial signs which we saw.

"look forward to the day all road signs get changed (hope it is in my lifetime)"

Who do you think you are? Noah? (LOL)


Seriously though, why on earth do we get this spineless ultra-loudmouthed minority wanting to rejoice at something that almost no-one in the UK wants?
It's a weird situation - almost masochistic.
I'd love to introduce these sort of people to something called a "peer group".

It's a shame really, these people resist the natural urge to get a life.

While I'll go out with my chums tonight for a pint or eight they'll be agonising over how they can get a beer without saying some awful imperial word!

No matter though, you can still find out an offlicence that will sell you a 440ml (mL, etc) can from the fridge (ask for it by name if you want). You can then take the can home and drink it with your best mate!

(get ready for some stuff on "25ml" of spirits folks! Like that's how we ask for it!)


ROTFL!

I certainly will be going out for a few pints. what the hell is wrong with calling 568ml of beer a pint? if it becomes half a litre sometime in the future, why not still call it a pint? its part of our culture, going down the pub for a half litre hasn't got quite the same ring to it

Do you remember the bit when I said "get a life"?

Anyhoo - off for that gallon of cider now....

<ARM: Get to it chaps!>

The Amazing Steve does it again. The *C*H*O*I*CE*, implimented by employees of Her Majesty's govt to put signs in a public park used by hundreds of thousands of visitors to our land and equally as many children who swim, run races, build etc in metric to be able to quickly judge distances, yet again to be threatened with attack by rabid-europhobes!
Strange that bwma allows such provocations and threats to be published on this site, but handy evidence to have taken note of and warn the appropriate authourites ( ie, Her Maj's employees, not "jackbooted nazis' from Brussels", [again]) of intended vandalism. Hope the same doesn't happen with our Olympic bid when you lot try to make us look even more ridiculous for the world to see as they try to make their way around a Britain which runs races in metres but uses ancient measure on its streets and roads. Too funny for words.
Enjoy your gallon of cider, Steve. Where DO you buy that by the way, in gallons I mean?
Glad you're cooking in imperial. Must be fun converting all those recipes from every tv show in Britain and all the magazines, unless you can find one which still puts the equivilents in brackets, or find dated Delia re-runs ( you got to wonder about a man who is enamored with an old duck like Delia when Nigella has other guys flocking to the kitchen.
( Tell us about your mother, Steve)
Speaking of flocks, do you force your girlfriend to cook in imperial too? or does the clippety clop of her heels on the tiles drive you mad when you are watching Clwb Rygbi on SC4?
Thankfully my glass of red come in mls.

<<
Seriously though, why on earth do we get this spineless ultra-loudmouthed minority wanting to rejoice at something that almost no-one in the UK wants?
>>

SteveH is becoming increasingly frustrated at the opposition to his narrow intolerant point of view.

He becomes less articulate and irrational every day.

He is determined to bully the pro-metrics off this forum.

So why don't we leave him to it folks?

He'd be much happier listening to himself.

re: "All signs in one of Her Majesty's public parks now looking flash in metres..."

Not for long.

Council of ARM

Beware ARM.

It could be a trap!

You'll be wasting your time ARM. Look what happened at the Tower of London when you changed the signs. They were changed back immediately!

<<
"All signs in one of Her Majesty's public parks now looking flash in metres..."
>>

<<
You'll be wasting your time ARM. Look what happened at the Tower of London when you changed the signs.
>>

With any luck you might be sent to the Tower and ordered to do community service - reinstating Her Majesty's signs to their original condition.

Hi Boys! Wonder if the poster with info about the km sign in park might like to drop me an email so we can discuss this further? You may have read my postings earlier as you seem to have made comment along similar lines ( thought only my sense of humour went down that road!) bwma did contact me long ago to see if I would register to post, but have been too busy and feel this process is well along already. However I do check the site alot for info and have just noticed I can post here without log-in. Hi STEVE, how are you, Babe?
Might drop back soon to see what abuse I get and await the Bennetist Brigade raiding my home and dragging me off to be burned for heresy and treason..Fine British institution thta..Whatever happened to it? I hardly recognise this country anymore. The real Metric MArtyr-Hari. :)

I reckon the ARM campaign could be a good thing in the long run. The more signs they vandalise, the quicker the legislation making metric signs illegal will be changed. Once that is finally done the idiots can be arrested

Hear, hear.

I was going to post under lots of different names to look all "popular" from the pro-imperial front, but I'll leave that to the pro-metric brigade (ROTFL!)

Nice to see the metric-matahari ("imperial users are child abusers") chick back! See folks! I was right! (chuckle)

I'd like to respond to some other oddities and funnies that delighted me when I came back this morning.

First, I still think "anonymous" is an overated posting name!

But anyhoo, let me answer your concerns!

"public park used by hundreds of thousands of visitors to our land"

Yup, like American Visitors, and like British visitors. That is why we should cater for those people who by-in-large use imperial. As in "really" use.

"threatened with attack by rabid-europhobes"

What does "europhobe" mean? Do you mean "eu-phobe"? or "euro-sceptic"? Tell me something, am I anti-european? I'd love to hear your view on my viewpoint on "Europe". While you're at it perhaps you can tell me the difference between "EU" and "Europe"?

"make us look even more ridiculous for the world "

Do you honestly believe that the average Italian would actually think that way? Do you honestly think that the average Polish chap will laugh at our signs? Or that the average American will bemusingly say "er, what's a mile"?

"Too funny for words"

Hmmm, strange sense of humour me thinks!

"Where DO you buy that by the way, in gallons I mean"

Once I have drunk 8 pints of cider I will have bought and consumed 8 pints - its not rocket science!

"Glad you're cooking in imperial"

There's more to life than searching down those papers, mags and books that have metric quantities in brackets just to point and shout "There! Britain is Metric!"

Although I have heard that nigella annoys the hell out of professional chefs like Worrall tomkinson who does everything in imperial! Oh, the mirth!

"Tell us about your mother, Steve"

What would you like to know about my mother, precisely? Sounds like an odd, and somewhat disturbing, request....

"do you force your girlfriend to cook in imperial too"

Er, now you wish to talk about my girlfriend! Desist - you strange little man!

"does the clippety clop of her heels on the tiles drive you mad when you are watching Clwb Rygbi on SC4"

Ah! I see! The plot has been lost! Fancy arguing the points about the argument rather than falsely assuming that my other 'arf is Welsh?


"Thankfully my glass of red come in mls"

The correct anotation would be "Thankfully my glass of red comes in mL". Please study the system you puport to represent! (Oh, and I'd ask for a "large/small glass" if I were you otherwise people would presume you worked in the "banking" industry if you get my drift!).

Now to "parking meter man"

"SteveH is becoming increasingly frustrated at the opposition to his narrow intolerant point of view"

Oh well what a pity never mind.

"He is determined to bully the pro-metrics off this forum."

Hmm, where do I go on this one?

well

1) I am not anti-metric, I am pro-metric, pro-imperial, pro-choice with a sprinkle of common sense!
2) You say bully? Take a look at these posts - you will notice some people figthing to preserve something worth preserving and you will notice some people just "fighting".
3) Why on earth would I want people to leave the board? What fun would that be? I absoultely love arguing here! I class the metric chaps into two "types":
1) Those who see the benefit of metric and argue its points
2) Those who hate imperial and just attack imperial at any opportunity using absurd arguments to prove they are right.

For example - "Ross"/"Martin" are grp (1) where as "Metre man"/"Matahari" are grp (2). The difference to my approach? Well I enjoy arguing with those in group (1) whereas I simply *enjoy* those in group (2)!

You'll also notice that those in group 1 post with their real names whereas those in group 2 hide behind some daft name that they hope will wind up "pro-choicers"

However it does look like Anon became Andy!

Dear Steve,

I read your last heart-felt dissertation with interest.

Need to mention a few things.

<<
1) I am not anti-metric, I am pro-metric, pro-imperial, pro-choice with a sprinkle of common sense!
>>

No one can be seriously pro-metric and pro-imperial.

Any true pro-metric will tell you that if you mix it with non-metric (and hence totally incompatible units) then many of the advantages of the metric system are lost.

The idea of choice between metric and non-metric is complete nonsense.

There is no such thing as common sense in dual/mutiple measures.

<<
2) You say bully? Take a look at these posts - you will notice some people figthing to preserve something worth preserving and you will notice some people just "fighting".
>>

Clearly you don't realise just how agressive and insulting your posts are. So many people have complained about you either directly or by implication. You obviously have the skin of a rhinocerous.

<<
3) Why on earth would I want people to leave the board? What fun would that be? I absoultely love arguing here! I class the metric chaps into two "types":...
<<

Yes got it taped haven't you. You are purely reactionary based on pre-conceived ideas about pro-metrics.

So convince us Steve. Why should any pro-metrics bother with you?

"No one can be seriously pro-metric and pro-imperial."

This is the proof if anyone needed it! Are you seriously saying that I cannot choose to use imperial of metric whenever the convenience factor allows? Are you honestly saying that I cannot choose mm (that's "millimetres" btw) because I find it convenient for very small things but then, say, cut a piece of wood to a foot long? Study your quote to really know how absurd it is! If I were not pro-metric (thus presumably anti-metric) am I meant to simply ignore someone who mentions "metres" because I can only be "pro-imperial"? Is there mass histeria whenever I get in my car that's almost 7 foot wide with a 2.3 litre engine? You need to face the fact that you are totally comfortable with how long a foot is while I am more than capable of recognising the length of a metre. What we CHOOSE to use at execution time is based on an implicit convenience factor that's built into the human mind.

I wouldn't mix the two -naturally - that's just a poor excuse for attempting to not understand the argument - who in their right mind would say "yeah, its about 2 foot 4 cm long"? However you could say that the pice of would was 2 millimetres thick and six foot long - are you honestly saying you could not visualise the piece of wood from that?

"The idea of choice between metric and non-metric is complete nonsense"

I grant you witn more intelligence to really believe that!

"Clearly you don't realise just how agressive and insulting your posts are"

I don't wish to sound "higher than thou" but I've been posting here for years whereas you recently started here. Your initial posts were, shall we say, incredibly patronising with a whiff of an inbuilt superiority complex. You didnt argue the case, you simply tried to show how stupid people are for prferring imperial. The moderator is here to stop any insultive or offensive stuff (although I appreciate his/her leniency even if it means being called a child abuser!). I suggest you go back and look at your original posts.

"So convince us Steve. Why should any pro-metrics bother with you"

That is a misplaced "us" as you will see if you check the history of banter that I've had with many many people of metric group (1) and metric group (2).

Check out the witty to-and-fro-ing between me and:

Conrad
Ralf
Ross
Martin
Pippage


then look at the history of other people that have long gone (on both sides!)

And then re-read your stuff.

Steveh wrote: "That is a misplaced "us" as you will see if you check the history of banter that I've had with many many people of metric group (1) and metric group (2).

Check out the witty to-and-fro-ing between me and:

Conrad
Ralf
Ross
Martin
Pippage"

You really couldn't live without us, do you Steveh ? ;-)

Not quite, but lets just say that life wouldn't be as entertaining when I'm not not doing work.

No that wasn't a typo

"No one can be seriously pro-metric and pro-imperial."

Totally agree that describing a piece of wood as 2mm thick and 6ft long is fine and would be understood by everyone. There is no equivalent of mm in imperial just as there is no equivalent of feet in metric.

In normal conversation there is no problem with mixing metric and imperial. I can't believe anyone has a problem with this. It still happens in places like Australia where some people still give their heights in feet etc.

No-one can force anyone to use certain measurements in everyday speech, but officially there should be consistency and one system only. This is a pretty basic responsibility of a government and not a violation of our freedom like some people seem to think.

The situation we have in Britain is ridiculous and I believe that we are the only country using (officially) a mixture of the 2 systems. The US is still imperial, everyone uses it, everyone understands it, so no problem. Ireland is in a similar situation to Britain, but with one important difference - there are plans to complete the metrication process (i.e dates set when road signs will be changed) whereas in Britain we have no plans to ever complete the process.

"The situation we have in Britain is ridiculous and I believe that we are the only country using (officially) a mixture of the 2 systems."

True.

"Ireland is in a similar situation to Britain, but with one important difference - there are plans to complete the metrication process (i.e dates set when road signs will be changed)"

Really? Do you know what they are?

"The US is still imperial, everyone uses it"

How many times have I been told that "the two liter coke bottles are at the end counter" etc whilst asking for a "bottle of coke" in US stores? Plenty!

The US is in the same nice state as us, only they "lean" more toward imperial (custom).

What is the equivalent to a 2 litre bottle in imperial / customary units? Also, in USA what volume do cans of soft drinks come in? They are 330ml in UK.

Just some info from the US...all items in grocery stores are marked in imperial first except, generally, the following:

Soda bottles (2 liters) - even though cans are 12 fl. oz
Alcoholic beverages - usually 750 milliliters I think
Some bottles of water (half liter, 1 liter, etc.), while some are 20 fl.oz.
Some pouches of drinks are 200 milliliters, usually sold in 10-packs for a total of 2 liters
medicines/vitamins, content always labeled in milligrams or micrograms or grams
nutrition information is always in grams or milligrams (fat content, etc.)

That's all I can think of. Everything else in a typical grocery store will be English first, metric alongside in parenthesis. For fruits/vegetables/meat that are weighed at the counter, no sight of metric anywhere (scales give pounds to the nearset hundrehth). I've been keeping my eyes peeled recently, but I may have missed a couple.

Bud wrote
<<
For fruits/vegetables/meat that are weighed at the counter, no sight of metric anywhere (scales give pounds to the nearset hundrehth)
>>

In other words, a bastardised metric system.

Ross

Re: Ireland

Almost all distance signs are already in km (have been gradually replaced over the last 20years or so) A number of dates have been set for the changing of speed limits, but then put off again. Think the current plans are by the end of 2004.

The Irish aren't bothered at all about the change - they have a strong sense of national identity and don't feel that their identity is threatened by metrication or adopting the euro. Don't think anyone in Australia, NZ, South Africa or anywhere else was bothered either. Why is it only us who make such a fuss? I put it down to a weak sense of national identity

"The Irish aren't bothered at all about the change - they have a strong sense of national identity and don't feel that their identity is threatened by metrication or adopting the euro. Don't think anyone in Australia, NZ, South Africa or anywhere else was bothered either. Why is it only us who make such a fuss? I put it down to a weak sense of national identity"

I would agree with that.

Are the dates set in law or are they merely the 'intention' of the Government?

<<
Don't think anyone in Australia, NZ, South Africa or anywhere else was bothered either
>>

To a certain degree, metrication was seen in these countries as dumping some of the baggage of colonialism.

South Africa, which had seen a very bitter republican referendum a few years earlier, saw decimalisation and metrication as the way forward whether Britain did so or not.

<<
For fruits/vegetables/meat that are weighed at the counter, no sight of metric anywhere (scales give pounds to the nearset hundrehth)
In other words, a bastardised metric system.
>>

No, actually, it's simply an example of using the system in a manner most convenient. While pounds can be divided fractionally, they can also be divided decimally just as easily as the kg.
If a soda bottle says "half liter", is that a "bastardised" version of the English system?

It's quite interesting that the US decimalise the lb to 2 dp.

Do they do this with any other customary units?

Depends what you mean by "they". I have seen decimalized English units often. For example,

1. car odometers give the distance traveled to the nearest tenth of a mile
2. ounces are almost always divided decimally (drams are unheard of)
3. At the gas (petrol) pump, the amount you have pumped is given in gallons divided decimally

In the case of the grocery stores, dividing the pound decimally is much better than using ounces, because you can multiply the price by the weight easier. For example, if you buy .75 lb at 99 cents/lb, you can figure the cost (or the computer can) easier than if it said 8 oz at 99 cents/lb.

And no, the above paragraph can in NO way be interpreted as an argument in favor of metric, because the pound can be divided decimally just as well as the kilo can.

Bud wrote
<<
If a soda bottle says "half liter", is that a "bastardised" version of the English system?
>>

Yes.

I have never seen "half liter" or "half litre" on any commodity,not have I seen "1/2 litre", but I have seen "0.5 litre". But then, although I have been to over 20 different countries, I have never been to the US.

"500ml" seems like entirely acceptable notation.

I have seen 1/2 litre once on a beer can. BTW, dividing pounds into decimals seems a much easier system than using ounces too. I still prefer the kilo but dividing the pound into decimals would be less confusing.

" The Irish aren't bothered at all about the change "

Very true - this is why all the privately owned butchers and g/grocers in Dublin use pounds 'n' ounces exclusively - I guess its cos they don't have officials from Sunderland living there!

BTW - I've seen 1/2 metre, 1/2 litre etc in lots of places. Believe me you pick these things up when you naturally overlook the countless references to imperial.

Soda bottles in the US don't say "half liter" but that is how people refer to them in speech. Is that any different?

<<
Soda bottles in the US don't say "half liter" but that is how people refer to them in speech. Is that any different?
>>

Yes. In particular, if somebody whose homwe language was not English heard the word "half litre" they might not understand it, but the text "500 ml" is international.

Do you know what?
I've not heard anyone ask for anything in mL.

Even wine bottles tend to be "normal" or "large" !

I was at a "high performance coaching course" on Wednesday (think "David Brent" to get an idea of the format).

At one point a lady had to sit in a chair with her back towards us and throw paper balls into a bucket behind her. First she had to do it with no help, then with one of the rest of the group saying "left - right - more - less" and then with one of the rest of the group giving approx distance.

The volunteer said "shall we use metric or imperial?"

You need to believe me that with my opinion I forced my mouth to stay closed to hear what people said!

"What, Inches or cm?" said one. "Who on earth uses cm?" said another. A south african girl said "I know cms!".

I thought you might like that one, Martin!

P.S. No-one in the group was over 40 and it was mainly professional IT folk (apart from two)

Reminds me of a Saturday morning children's show on in my home a few weeks back. The studio audience was screaming out the heights of various celebrities in a raucous competition. All celebs heights were guessed in cm. When the right one was guessed, the true height was shown (in cm) of each of these people. As none of the children were shouting anything but metric measure, Steve, your little boy with his rod in hand to catch his "pounds fish" in his "feet water" would have been a distinct LOSER in the world he is now dealing with.

<
The volunteer said "shall we use metric or imperial?"

You need to believe me that with my opinion I forced my mouth to stay closed to hear what people said!
>>

What? You mean that you the great pro-imperial/pro-metricist had an opinion on the matter?

"I was at a "high performance coaching course" on Wednesday (think "David Brent" to get an idea of the format).

At one point a lady had to sit in a chair with her back towards us and throw paper balls into a bucket behind her. First she had to do it with no help, then with one of the rest of the group saying "left - right - more - less" and then with one of the rest of the group giving approx distance.

The volunteer said "shall we use metric or imperial?"

You need to believe me that with my opinion I forced my mouth to stay closed to hear what people said!

"What, Inches or cm?" said one. "Who on earth uses cm?" said another. A south african girl said "I know cms!".

I thought you might like that one, Martin!

P.S. No-one in the group was over 40 and it was mainly professional IT folk (apart from two)"

And you said I was sad for mentioning what I heard in a furniture shop!

"Reminds me of a Saturday morning children's show on in my home a few weeks back. The studio audience was screaming out the heights of various celebrities in a raucous competition. All celebs heights were guessed in cm. When the right one was guessed, the true height was shown (in cm) of each of these people. As none of the children were shouting anything but metric measure, Steve, your little boy with his rod in hand to catch his "pounds fish" in his "feet water" would have been a distinct LOSER in the world he is now dealing with."

I saw that again this morning, an entirely usable system for measuring height was well demonstrated.

re: "Reminds me of a Saturday morning children's show on in my home a few weeks back. The studio audience was screaming out the heights of various celebrities in a raucous competition. All celebs heights were guessed in cm. When the right one was guessed, the true height was shown (in cm) of each of these people. As none of the children were shouting anything but metric measure, Steve, your little boy with his rod in hand to catch his "pounds of fish" in his "feet of water" would have been a distinct LOSER in the world he is now dealing with."

REPLY: The studio audience would have rehearsed before the transmission and they would have been *told* to use centimetres (in line with BBC instructions on other programmes e.g. cooking and all children's programmes). The little boy with his rod in his hand could have easily gone on this programme and won the competition if he had listened carefully to the instructions and was good at remembering roughly how many centimetres a tall, medium and short celebrity were.

After the programme, they all went out into the light of day and re-entered their Imperial world

Not ANOTHER conspiracy?

<<
After the programme, they all went out into the light of day and re-entered their Imperial world
>>

WHen they go to the classroom and study science, they are in another make-believe world because everything is in metric - no wonder Britain and the US are falling behind the rest of the world in science and engineering.

"Reminds me of a Saturday morning children's show on in my home a few weeks back. The studio audience was screaming out the heights of various celebrities in a raucous competition. All celebs heights were guessed in cm. When the right one was guessed, the true height was shown (in cm) of each of these people. As none of the children were shouting anything but metric measure, Steve, your little boy with his rod in hand to catch his "pounds fish" in his "feet water" would have been a distinct LOSER in the world he is now dealing with."

What the kids are "told" to say in a well rehearsed TV programme and what they *ACTUALLY* say in reality can be two very different things. I assume you're just being a naughty devil's advocate rather than demonstrating an affinity with stupidity!

BTW: Martin - where on earth do you get your facts about US/UK scientists diminishing?

Metre Man: If I DID open my pro-imperial pro-metric mouth (and would not have learnt what the others said) I would have probably said something like "considering we all do things in feet and inches shall we just use feet and inches".

However what you would LIKE me to have said would be "Europe is destroying us we need to use feet and inches as metric is a tool of the EU to supress us" - which is of course the direct opposite extreme-viewpoint as yourself since you could not possibly equate me saying something sensible with an apparent desire for people to use the measuring unit that they are most comfortable with for the job in hand. Please clarify this on your own mind - I am *not* the opposite of you.

<<
BTW: Martin - where on earth do you get your facts about US/UK scientists diminishing?
>>

There is a report of this nature in the papers every few months.

Are not the US and UK still amogst the highest in regards to innovation and technology etc?

At the top levels maybe, but at the intermediate levels we are falling badly behind.

On the TV programme, the audience were actually shouting 'higher' or 'lower' having been given the previous measurement in cm, and did not use any units themselves.

Thus they had to implicitly understand the measurements rather than just shouting numbers.

So a lot like real life then?

Martin - I get your point, but don't know of the evidence, but I'll take your word for it until proved otherwise.

"However what you would LIKE me to have said would be "Europe is destroying us we need to use feet and inches as metric is a tool of the EU to supress us" "

However ridiculous it sounds, I think you'll find this is the main reason people oppose metrication. If the general public knew the truth, there would be very little opposition.

I think that you may have taken the "opinion" column in the Mirror too seriously!

Seriously though, please try not to confuse "EU" with our weights and measures. Although I do see why some people may recognise that Brussels may have something to do with metrication and thus tarnish the reputation of metric/SI (or vice versa!).

It seems that most kids TV uses metric units for everything. Watching Newsround this evening, the reporter quoted Mount Everest as nearly 9000 metres. Also, a programme called How 2 on ITV1 uses metric units all the time including kilometres.

The only way the US/UK are falling behind in science is relative to their prior position. If you are at the top, and you don't advance as fast as someone less advanced, it doesn't mean you've "fallen behind." The US may have had a GDP growth of only 1% last year (that's just my estimate) and some African countries had a GDP growth of over 50%, but that doesn't mean that the US economy is falling behind Africa.
The US/UK still lead science, only their dominance is not as strong/absolute as it once was.

Every few months the British newspapers publish the results of various tests that have been done by a representative sample of schoolchildren in various countries. Typical results might include the fact that only 5% of UK 14 years olds know what happened in 1066 [My hypothetical example].

When such tests look at maths and science, the UK and the US are well down in the league (in some cases only conming 20th behind Germany, France, Korea, Japan etc).

Richard - you quote a lot of "matter of fact" stuff from those programmes.

Believe me - you *will* hear something like this on, say, Blue Peter: "Then we travelled 5 miles up the coast to meet a fisherman ... etc etc "

After glancing along the beverage aisle in my local supermarket (a Publix store in Florida), I have seen the following containers, all of which have the corresponding equivalents listed in parentheses.

Soda:

8 oz. glass bottles
10 oz. glass bottles
12 oz. cans (about 355 ml; so we get almost a full fluid ounce more in our cans)
1/2-liter plastic bottles (labelled as such, not 0.5 l)
20 oz. plastic bottles
24 oz. plastic bottles
2-liter plastic bottles

Water: (all in plastic bottles)

8 oz.
12 oz.
500 ml
20 oz.
24 oz.
1 liter
1.5 liters
1 gal. (equals 128 fl. oz or 3.78 l)
2.5 gal. (big cuboidal containers with a built-in spigot)
5 gal. (for use with water coolers)

Beer seems to come only in English quantities, Wine only in 750 ml bottles (generally referred to as a "fifth", since 750 ml is almost exactly 1/5 US gallon.)

Most pre-packaged products are denominated in English units, with the metric equivalent in parentheses. Some products, generally imports, list the metric quantity first, and the English equivalent in parentheses. A small few are in round metric quantities, but the label still lists the English quantity first, e.g. "10.6 oz. (300 g)". Some products do not list any metric equivalent, but most do. I have not seen any products at all with no English quantity listed.

Loose goods such as produce and meats at the deli counter are never priced in metric.

As you can see, there is an eclectic mix of units, but English measures are very much dominant at my local store.

In the UK these woudl all be in metric measure making it easier ot compare like with like.

It appears that the suppliers of driniks in the US have considerable freedom - freedom which they use to rip the customer off by making it difficult to compare one product with another.

No. You can't be ripped off by the merchant unless you're being decieved. There's no decpetion involved here. If you're an idiot and don't know how compare products according to the criteria that are important to you, then you're ripping yourself off.

Besides, at least where I shop, the price tags on the shelf almost always include unit prices. For beverages, the price per fluid ounce is always listed by the supermarket.

How are consumers ripped off by drinks producers displaying quantity in units consumers understand?

BWMA,

The list above contains a mixture of oz and ml.

Does this:
<<
How are consumers ripped off by drinks producers displaying quantity in units consumers understand?
>>

mean that (in your view) consumers understand both non-metric and metric?

The fact that people voluntarily purchase products denominated in both fluid ounces and mililiters is manifest evidence that they do indeed.

It seems that America is in a rather messy transition period for customary measures to metric measures on food labling. Don't be surprised if you see scales with kg appearing before long!

<<
How are consumers ripped off by drinks producers displaying quantity in units consumers understand?
>>

If some suppliers use metric units and other customary units, it take a fair amount of skill to compare thw two.

The most "comparing" I have ever done at a supermarket has been intuitive comparing - look at the size of the items and the price and decide if one is significantly more expensive per unit than the other. If the difference isn't intuitive, it isn't significant enough to waste time over.

If there are two items next to each other that appear to be the same quality, I usually compare prices - sometimes only to see whether it is cheaper to buy a large box or two small boxes.

Have you ever come across an instance when it is cheaper to buy two smaller boxes?

Yes. Sometimes when both are the same brand, but more particularly when one s a branded product and the other is unbrandrd, but appears to be the same.

Also, if two boxes cost the same as a simgle box, it is often better to buy two boxes because teh product deteriorates once teh box is open (espl foodstuffs).

Thankfully, in the UK, we now have shelf edge labelling giving the price per 100 g. This makes the comparison of what is the best bargain totally and instantly transparent. One can choose the product to buy either in a can or packet knowing how much the price is per 100 g or simply multiply by 10 to give the price per kg in the fresh produce department and choose the bargain. That's why I am grateful for metric shopping now. Tin of tuna 79p per 100 g
is £7.90 per kg. Can check the price of fresh tuna in fishmonger, chaeck which is best deal and my day is made easier!

Either I am wealthier than I thought or some form of pedantry is going on here.

I pick up WHAT I LIKE TO EAT.

I never look at the shelf edge stuff on tins/packets etc. I like baked beans so I buy them. I like chicken soup so I buy them.

Unless you are looking for "Tesco value chicken soup" which is probably 99% water don't you tend to go for what you ACTUALLY like?

The only time I use pounds/qtrs is when I'm at the deli/ fresh meat & fish counter where preference for imperial is apparent (again, I shop at Tesco where this happens).

Mr Bennett posts in "The Great Debate" that the British Isles are merely islands "off the Continent". Did you fail geography, Sir? The Continent of Europe is a huge plate, its boundaries to the west lie in the Atlantic Ocean! Britain sits nicely ON this continental plate we call the European Plate. Are you going to suggest that Tasmania is not part of Australia because it sits some 200 km from the shores of the main island on the Australian Continental Plate? The channel which separates us from our tribal relatives was once land. People WALKED across it! Ice Ages cause the rising and falling of waters, beware it may happen again... and you might have a French family wander into your frosty front garden!

"The Continent" is shorthand for mainland Europe, a figure of speech.

"200 km" is about 124 miles (call it 125 miles for rounding).

re: (Teacher) "Did you fail Geography, Sir?"

ANSWER: I hesitate to reply, as some will regard the following information as immodest, but the record shows that in July 1970 I was awarded a First Class Honours Degree in Geography from Sheffield University.

My special area of study was 'Pleistocene Geography', viz. the study of the historical and landscape effects of the 'Ice Age'.

I'm therefore well aware of tectonic plates and the continental shelf; I'm also aware of the road sign that was amended in east Essex.

The sign read: "Harwich for the continent".

To which some wag had added underneath: "And Frinton for the incontinent"

Buy some Frintons. I am sure you'll be doubly incontinent when you see what's coming your way soon.

Teacher: You wouldn't be on the staff of the Metric Charm School, would you? Or may be the European Re-Education Centre? I think we should be told

" the Americans will always do the right thing...after they have exhausted all the alternatives." Winston Churchill

There was another hoot about us being "ununited by a common language" but as I cannot recall it exactly, wouldn't use it! You bwma people are well adept at twisting aspects of truth to suit yourselves, but have since discovered you are a political mouthpiece for ukip so am hardly surprised to see the same old stuff. I noticed it on the BNP site too.
So, on English language- it seems you would fight and die for it? "Language"- not an "English" word- clue of what's a'comin....

Tell me, are you a "teacher" in the same way as Abu Hamza is a "teacher".

Sounds pretty familiar!

Your usual attempt at personal attack on anyone who speaks a word of truth or sensibility is the only thing sounding pretty familiar, Steve ( President of the UK Independence Party Youth League?)

youth league?

I guessed he must be around 40 or 50, still bitter about the changeover to decimal currency. Surely no young person can be so stuck in the past

Teacher: "Your usual attempt at personal attack on anyone who speaks a word of truth or sensibility is the only thing "

Erm, Isn't that just your opinion?

Or perhaps my opinion is wrong hence you being my teacher?

Cheers Abu! (or epeist, or whatever!)

"President of the UK Independence Party Youth League"

I've never been a member of UKIP.

Andy: "I guessed he must be around 40 or 50, still bitter about the changeover to decimal currency. Surely no young person can be so stuck in the past"

Sorry - too young to know predecimal currency - either you are very old yourself or sadly out of sync with anyone who is in their 30's or below.
Tip:

1) Go to public place (eg pub, park, tesco)
2) Listen

Hint: You'll need to log off and leave the house.

I'm in my twenties so probably not much younger than you

I have never tried to say that most people use metric measurements in everyday speech. People use a mixture.

You seem to be unable to accept the fact that people use metric measures as well, and the fact that although a lot of young people may use imperial measures as a figure of speech, when it comes to actually measuring something they would use metric.

If you gave someone under the age of 30 a tape measure and asked them to measure the length of something, what would they give you the answer in? metric or imperial? I reckon at least 90% would automatically use metric.

For your information, Steve, I am only on this board when I've got nothing better to do at work. The day I waste a second of my own time arguing about weights and measures, I will shoot myself. If you got out a bit more, you might realise that most people don't really give a damn about measurements and are quite happy to use either.

"You seem to be unable to accept the fact that people use metric measures as well"

Incorrect - I use metric measures sometimes (I find it easier to say millimetre than 1/16")

"and the fact that although a lot of young people may use imperial measures as a figure of speech, when it comes to actually measuring something they would use metric"

In practice - Incorrect (just from observation)

"If you gave someone under the age of 30 a tape measure and asked them to measure the length of something, what would they give you the answer in? metric or imperial? I reckon at least 90% would automatically use metric."

Most surveys put imperial preference at between 70% and 80% for "young people".

School is where we learn metric (and imperial)
Life is where we learn imperial (and metric).

"School is where we learn metric (and imperial)
Life is where we learn imperial (and metric)."

It is of course an absolute disgrace that metric education is not allowed to follow on to 'life'.

and it *used* to be a disgrace that imperial education wasn't part of the curriculum during the 80's when I was at school

(Andy: Starting to give my age away there! - and yes I was a "Thatcherite" - surprise surprise)

<<
and it *used* to be a disgrace that imperial education wasn't part of the curriculum during the 80's when I was at school

(Andy: Starting to give my age away there! - and yes I was a "Thatcherite" - surprise surprise)
>>

... and one of Mrs Thatcher's blunders was to stop the metrication progress for no reason other than to be ssen to be scoring a few cheap points against Brussels

If Margeret Thatcher were in power today, I could see her scrapping the teaching of metric measures in schools, scrapping metric labelling, etc.

When the metrication board was going nicely, she for no reason got rid of it. We would have had to kilometre, etc if she and her Tory cronies hadn't been in power.

Dual posting of bridge heights was well under way in the early 1980's. Then came the idiot suspension of the metrication program and the even more idioting removal of dual signs the TRSGD during the same era. The result was that dualo signage disappeared and we have had to start again.

That woman has a lot to answer for.

"If Margeret Thatcher were in power today, I could see her scrapping the teaching of metric measures in schools, scrapping metric labelling, etc.

When the metrication board was going nicely, she for no reason got rid of it. We would have had to kilometre, etc if she and her Tory cronies hadn't been in power"


YAY!

Go Maggie - Go Maggie - Go Maggie - Go Maggie!

(of course no-one on "that side" will want or need to remember that it was her and her govt that introduced "litres" at the pumps ----- but we can't all be perfect can we?)

(of course no-one on "that side" will want or need to remember that Blair could easily remake the metrication board and do exactly that!)

(of course no-one on "that side" will want or need to remember that the reintrocuction of imperial education happened in the curriculum in the 90's under Major and Blair)

(of course

...I'll stop now!)

<<
of course no-one on "that side" will want or need to remember that it was her and her govt that introduced "litres" at the pumps ----- but we can't all be perfect can we?)
>>

The introduction of the litre at the pumpes was done at the request of the petroleum industry. At that time many pumps could not handle prices of more than £2 to unit of petrol,but they could handle gallons and litres equally well. Once the proce of petrol went above £1.50 per gallon, the petroleum industry requested metrication (otherwise they would have had to change thousands of pumps that had been bought in anticipation of metrication).

But if you were to believe Richard, Maggie would have stomped her feet swung her handbag and demand that gallons be retained.

Anyhow - pumps by the litre doesn't get away from the fact that prices could be shown in both? Only Asda have retained (to this day) £/gal.

Britain sure sounds like a strange country. If the petroleum industry had to request the government to introduce liters at the gas pumps, does that mean that the filling stations were owned by the government? If so, what does the petroleum industry do?

The governemnt [in theory] ensures an open market by regulating how things may be sold.

For example, it is currently illegal to sell glasses of beer or cider in England and Wales in anything other that 1/3, 1/2 or 1 pint glasses. Wine (by the glass) must be sold in glasses of 125ml, 175 mul or multiples thereof. Spirits, when sold by the glass, must be sold in glasses of 25ml, 35ml or multiples thereof.

In the same way petrol was sold by the gallon until the mid 1980's when unit of measure was changed to litres. If there was a free for all, then one garage would be selling by the Imperail gallon, another by teh US gallon, another by the litre. How would the consumer be able to compare prices?

<<
Britain sure sounds like a strange country. If the petroleum industry had to request the government to introduce liters at the gas pumps, ...
>>

I am not too sure what Rotcar meant by this statement.

If he is writing from the US (a country that I have never visited), then am I to assume that petrol retailers in the US can use any units of measure that they like - US gallons, fluid ounces, barrels, litres. If that is the case tehn the US (or at any rate the state where Rotcar lives) must be a strange place. As far as I know, in every civilised society, it is the perogative of Government to regulate the units of measure that are used in the market place. This ensures that buyer and seller both have the saem impartial reference point should there be a dispute regard the quantity of goods supplied.

Alternatively, maybe Rotcar is just niieve about how interest groups lobby Government to get certain laws passed.

"1/3, 1/2 or 1 pint glasses"

I've not seen 1/3 pint glasses.

The spirit thing is funny - you get 25ml or 35ml of vodka then a 8 or 16 oz shot of coke! But then they are called "mixers" aren't they!?!

I have never seen a 1/3 pint glass, but the rules for weights and measures permits beer to be sold in such glasses.

Selling coke in 8oz or 16oz units is definitely illegal. Fluid ounces may not be used for trade in the UK (or anywhere else in the EU). Pints are permitted, but only for beer, cider or milk in returnable containers.

Just overheard on one of London's top radio stations by one of our favourite DJs
DJ- "Has just topped 25 out there and was only supposed to be 24. Must be nearly 30 out there on your roof". Said to receptionist in Essex taking a break.
Receptionist "Oh, it's easy 30"
Must have been nazis standing by both of them kicking them with jackboots!
Happy Black Friday!

"Must have been nazis standing by both of them kicking them with jackboots! "

Why?

"For example, it is currently illegal to sell glasses of beer or cider in England and Wales in anything other that 1/3, 1/2 or 1 pint glasses."

This is the sort of stuff which the BWMA had curiously never opposed until it became clear that not doing so would lead to metrication.

"Must have been nazis standing by both of them kicking them with jackboots!"

According to some, this would have been an isolated incident, brought about by metric weirdo fanatics who aren't "real people".

We hope you will continue to use Fahrenheit forever and push for more words of German origin which are being lost from English to come back into your use. But please pronounce it properly. It is like "far-and-away", Farr-ren-hite, not farren-hite. Please use German properly and make sure people say "Gezundheit", not this silly "bless you". More German promotion please to show who the English really know they are. There was a song we sang in the Luftwaffe "Wir Fahren nach Engeland", that is the root of Fahren- to go. More German for us to see please. ("more"- Mehr, YES, more German!)

Many years ago, our school held an archery competition. There were some German teachers and pupils on an exchange visit and it was an Anglo-German contest.

An English teacer took aim and fired his first arrow. It was well off target. "Missed", he exclaimed.

The German teacher next to him said: "Ah. So you have the same word in English as we have in German".

It turned out after investigating the matter a bit further that "Mist" is the German word for, er, 'dung'

"Selling coke in 8oz or 16oz units is definitely illegal. Fluid ounces may not be used for trade in the UK (or anywhere else in the EU). Pints are permitted, but only for beer, cider or milk in returnable containers."

Next time you are in a modern pub ask for a vodka and coke.

Take note at what the matrix display says on the till system.

Also note the countless use of oz to describe plastic cups at various fast fooderies around the place.

Lastly - we all agree here in the office that its into the mid 80's out there today - luckily "none of us have been arrested by nazi jackboot yada yada etc etc".

A few months ago I was travelling on the ferry from Portsmouth to le Harve. In the cafeteria I asked for a soft drink (advertised in ml). I was given the drink in a cup marker in Imperial measure. I did a quick calculation and found that I had been given short measure. The result - my money back.

Keep up doing the good work, Martin !

Just read Mr Bennett's post about children in a village school being provided with some old scales (thrown out all over the country these days as the new ones are in use everywhere except by con-men and plants of the UK Independence Party) for a practical experience encounter of historic value, I am sure. It was truly endearing to read and innovative way to encourage children to learn I am sure.
Reminded me of when we learnt about Shakespearean English ( shall we go back to that too, Mr Bennett?). We dressed in funny old costumes and spoke a funny old complex version of English. How glad we were to come back to our real world! Same will be said for kids after you've played your sad game with their heads. Your children must cringe with embarrassment, Good Sir. Have you encouraged the children to price in shillings, guineas or farthings or groats? If not, why not?
Tune in to this school next week as the children re-enact a hanging, drawing and quartering, followed by a jolly good burning in public ( for entertainment purposes of course), admission 2/6d to see this and other fine British institutions and laws upheld, like kiddies going to work at 5 and little girls of 12 being sold as brides to filthy old men for years of abuse.
Bring it all back screech the ukips!
Well done for "Teacher" pointing out how much our old Germanic Language has changed to something so far removed, yet now British, and not affecting who we are at all. Same will (and is now) said for metric. We are using it, yet remain British. Don't forget to tell the children all the old imperial measures were forced on us, some accepted and introduced, successively by the Romans etc. Nothing particularly "proud to be English" (therefore inherently superior of course) about ANY of it.
"Siegfried" , I got your point- most amusing. But we recall last time the Germans wanted to come and help us reuinte with our Saxon past. Thanks for pointing it all out anyway. All lost on this lot I am afraid.

Martin "The result - my money back"
With respect, do you not think they were just trying to get rid of "a wierdo who's calculating his drink in metric" ?

No - they were terrified of being prosecuted for giving short measure - it reflects badly when reported in the press and can have a knock-on effect on their profits out of all proportion to the fine that is alos levied.

Hmmm a quick look at "anonymous" up there reminded me of 2 things:

1) How severely out of tune she is with the average Brit

2) The notion that "imperial users are child abusers"

Does anyone recognise what I'm inferring here?

(rubs hands)

Martin: "No - they were terrified of being prosecuted for giving short measure - it reflects badly when reported in the press and can have a knock-on effect on their profits out of all proportion to the fine that is alos levied"

Hmmm, take a look at Tesco - annoying the hell out of TSO by reverting to "illegal" use of imperial. Share price up, profit up, market share up? Not all bad news really!

If Tescos say that they are selling you one pound of sausages and they actually do sell you a pound, the TSO's seem to be doing nothing about it (they shuold but they are not).

If however they say that they are selling you 500g of sausages, but deliver a pound, the TSO's will be onto them like a tonne of bricks.

how about if you requested a ton of bricks?

If you did so verbally you would probably get 1000kg.

*exactly* 1000kg or roughly the same as an imperial ton?

(think "-40F versus -40C")

"The notion that "imperial users are child abusers""

????????????

"Does anyone recognise what I'm inferring here"

Inferring or implying?

some will recognise the path I was taking!

As usual SteveH seeks out to indentify and vilify a poster rather than addressing the issue. hey, if ukip/bwma supports all old English hogwash as "holier than THOU" ( not "you", we have to go RIGHT back now, you know). Do it all properly. Don't be hypocritical and inconsistent. It was quite the done thing in England/Britain by British/English laws to do such things and even hang homosexuals regularly too or jail them as time moved on. Come on, do it all properly, not just the metric issue, which is being very rapidly and freewillingly adopted, ( except by people promoting political aspirations and trying to make their bananas look cheaper than the honest grocers who have, well- moved with the times!)

Heh heh!

"As usual SteveH seeks out to indentify and vilify a poster rather than addressing the issue."

Cheap

"hey, if ukip/bwma supports all old English hogwash as "holier than THOU" "

Is that in "thousandth of an inch"?
By the way - that was quite subtle - we want more massive generalisations please!!!

"( not "you", we have to go RIGHT back now, you know)."

Errrrr....?

"It was quite the done thing in England/Britain by British/English laws to do such things and even hang homosexuals"

Ah - we have moved on have we?
No longer are "imperial users child abusers" but now 90%+ of us who prefer and use imperial would like homosexuals killed? Once and extremist always an extremist! Tell me something - presuming most homosexuals probably practice unsafe measuring (ie they use imperial in preference to metric) does this mean they want laws put in place to make themselves illegal?

"not just the metric issue, which is being very rapidly and freewillingly adopted"

Dream on! (LOL)
I suggest you go for a walk further than south Ken!

"trying to make their bananas look cheaper than the honest grocers who have, well- moved with the times!)"

Dream on (mark 2) (ROTFL)
I suggest you get out a little bit more - leave London for a day or two.

Would you like to tell us your views on race? I seemed to remember a rather colourful (freudian slip there) email sent to me by your good self on the subject of race! (say no more - wink wink!)

P.S. "Luvvin it" !

"With respect, do you not think they were just trying to get rid of "a wierdo who's calculating his drink in metric"?"

Come on, be serious! This is exactly what standardised measurements are about and something which BWMA apparently supports.

Someone using the legal units of the UK for trade should not be considered a 'weirdo', whether or not they are a member of a minority and indeed especially so.

Ross - If someone sells me 100g of sweets I don't make a song-and-dance about it.

Hey, Ross, what do you think of us imperial users then after reading some of the above? Tonight me and a group of friends are going to find some witches to burn!

(BTW Ross, I know you have a sense of humour and will appreciate that, unlike the anonymous masquarader!)

<<
Ross - If someone sells me 100g of sweets I don't make a song-and-dance about it.
>>

... but if they told you that they were selling you a quarter pound and they charged you for a quarter pound.

"but if they told you that they were selling you a quarter pound and they charged you for a quarter pound"

Sure, it would have to be a qtr lb, even if it was represented in the equivelent grammage

Many thanks to the posters of their explanations of the sense in just using one system officially. You make so much sense and are clearly non-extremist or reactionary. As you point out, not running around painting over signs to show metres, removing illegal scales, etc. Just total sensibility.
Whilst I agree with SteveH's good wishes just to see
freedom, to an extent, to choose in the same manner as his learning of Welsh, let me point out the following.
Being bi-lingual is very good for the mind indeed, but even the Welsh will tell you that for official forms and dealings, some things just need to be in English. Not to mention dialect differences within the Welsh tongue itself. Do you know the proper old English word for language is "gethiode", Welsh iethoedd? Language- is a FRENCH word. See where I'm going? Making ourselves very quickly and easily understood is extremely importand as you know, so unless we are TOTALLY bi-lingual mistakes will happen. Mistakes in weighing and measuring can not only cost money, but lives (no record of lives lost in countries which transitioned to metric roads decades ago btw). So, am just saying, if we can accept a fun, growing and popular English language as our official one, for most of the world, we should show the same British resolve to use the planet's officail system of measure. That is BRITISH to me. Please don't start about the U.S. Those tiny little 473 mL "pints" would be maddening.

Hmmm that one wasn't so funny as it lacked the extremist attitude. So i'll only make a few points.



"Whilst I agree with SteveH's good wishes just to see
freedom"

I doubt it!

"but even the Welsh will tell you that for official forms and dealings"

I am Welsh so you are asking the correct person. For official dealings English and Welsh have parity - sorry!

"Not to mention dialect differences within the Welsh tongue itself."

The dialectic differences are not a barrier - I've already learned that.

"Do you know the proper old English word for language is "gethiode", Welsh iethoedd? Language- is a FRENCH word. See where I'm going?"

Did you know that the Welsh language is much older than both English AND French? I wonder - do you see where I've just "gone"?

"(no record of lives lost in countries which transitioned to metric roads decades ago btw)"

I love this one.
So how many horse and cart related accidents happened when transition occured in the non-English speaking world? How many drivers were in the English speaking countries when they "crossed over". eg, Australia with about 4 million people and hundreds of thousands of square miles of country? Now look at our country with 58 million people and millions of miles of road on this comparitively small land! But the biggest question should be: how many fatal accidents would be seen as "worth it" just so that we have metric signposts that only a tiny minority actually want? What BENEFIT could there be versus the COST of THE POSSIBILITY of loss of life?

"if we can accept a fun, growing and popular English language as our official one, for most of the world, we should show the same British resolve to use the planet's officail system of measure."

The day someones proves to me that a metre can be fun is the day we've all gone to that loony bin!

"The U.S. Those tiny little 473 mL "pints" would be maddening. "

No worries - just ask for a 20oz glass of beer and hey presto - you'll get a familiar and welcome "proper" pint!

"Ross - If someone sells me 100g of sweets I don't make a song-and-dance about it."

No, but some would I bet!

"Hey, Ross, what do you think of us imperial users then after reading some of the above? Tonight me and a group of friends are going to find some witches to burn!"

LOL

Hmmm that one wasn't so funny as it lacked the extremist attitude. So i'll only make a few points.

****** extremist is the likes of people who post where a sign is, which a BRITISH business has voluntarily CHOSEN ( C*H*O*I*CE, Mr SteveH) to use, so that a bunch of politically motivated reactionaries can take their ladders and vandalise this person's property. That's extremist MrH.



"Whilst I agree with SteveH's good wishes just to see
freedom"

I doubt it!

**** why does anyone bother with politeness to this lot? He is undoubtedly a UKipper and looks like even the webmaster of this site. Seems to "come up" with lots of personal information about people who post here, therefore IP access. network54 pay you in $US or £UK for keeping the conversation going, MrH? Why else would a young man (who, of his age, already work in metric in their day to day jobs) care about this issue at all? :)

I am Welsh so you are asking the correct person. For official dealings English and Welsh have parity - sorry!

****** they have total legal parity. And why not? But how many Welsh speakers really understand all the jargon in Welsh words. The Welsh language websites even say so. Same for dialect differences which include totally different words between North and South Wales.


"Do you know the proper old English word for language is "gethiode", Welsh iethoedd? Language- is a FRENCH word. See where I'm going?"

Did you know that the Welsh language is much older than both English AND French? I wonder - do you see where I've just "gone"?

****** yes, I am well aware that Welsh was spoken across most of what we now call England even in many dialect forms. It was KILLED off by force, humiliation and punishment by the English in hundreds of thousands of circumstances. So, have you "gone to" this yet- Things change, alot, we get on with life, adopt these things into our day to day world, yet remain uniquely who we are.

"(no record of lives lost in countries which transitioned to metric roads decades ago btw)"

How many drivers were in the English speaking countries when they "crossed over". eg, Australia with about 4 million people and hundreds of thousands of square miles of country? Now look at our country with 58 million people and millions of miles of road on this comparitively small land! But the biggest question should be:

******* population of Australia in the 1970s was 16 million. If it was only FOUR people those four people used their brains when they noticed the change. It goes something like this- "Hmmm, sign says 80 km/h here. Look at speedometer on car. Says I am doing 85 km/h. Think I will slow down." So simple an British village idiot could do it. The Irish will later this year I believe, giving us a road boundary with a metric-driving country.

how many fatal accidents would be seen as "worth it"

******** fatal? A metre is slightly more than a yard. Exit 100 yards/ exit 100 metres. Exit 1000 metres, simply 1 km. How can that cause an accident? height restriction 3 metres ( think 3 yards, not rocket science). Anyone who cannot grasp something as simple as that should be driven around by a carer.

just so that we have metric signposts that only a tiny minority actually want? What BENEFIT could there be versus the COST of THE POSSIBILITY of loss of life?

******** most people realise that we are no longer an "Island Nation/Hermit Kingdom/Imperial Empire". They expect that the process will be completed so that we can have one easy to use system for us all and all those who visit us from the (yes) 96% metric planet. (Don't mention Americans please. They tend not to drive here out of confusion with driving on the left).

"if we can accept a fun, growing and popular English language as our official one, for most of the world, we should show the same British resolve to use the planet's officail system of measure."

The day someones proves to me that a metre can be fun is the day we've all gone to that loony bin!

**** nothing in the above statement refers to the "fun" of concepts which is what measures are, being fun. A metre is hardly thought of as more fun than a yard! The reference is clearly to the fun of what we can create by using our wonderful language. We hope many examples are seen here.

"The U.S. Those tiny little 473 mL "pints" would be maddening. "

No worries - just ask for a 20oz glass of beer and hey presto - you'll get a familiar and welcome "proper" pint!

******** who said anything about beer? Can see where your mind's at! Was talking about milk!

SteveH is not the "webmaster" of this site.

Andrew Usher

"so that a bunch of politically motivated reactionaries can take their ladders and vandalise this person's property"

Try "ordinary people"! Trouble is , most "ordinary people" can't be bothered to get off their butts to do anything about it so hats of to Tony!

"why does anyone bother with politeness to this lot"

Err, you sided most of the UK's population with gay killers! Pot - kettle - black.

"He is undoubtedly a UKipper and looks like even the webmaster of this site"

[Sigh] If you say so (smirk)

"network54 pay you in $US or £UK for keeping the conversation going, MrH"

GOOD POINT! Hey Mr BWMA! How about some commission!!!???

"But how many Welsh speakers really understand all the jargon in Welsh words"

I'm not sure whether this is an insult to all those who speak welsh or just plain stupidity! Tell me, do welsh people "speak welsh" by translating it from english first?

"I am well aware that Welsh was spoken across most of what we now call England even in many dialect forms. It was KILLED off by force, humiliation and punishment by the English "

Err? Which history book told you this? The mirror? Look up "britonic" and see where the Romans, Saxons etc came into it!

"How can that cause an accident? height restriction 3 metres ( think 3 yards, not rocket science)."

1) We don't see height in yards - we in the UK use ft/in
2) You appear to be saying that the risk *IS* worth it

"most people realise that we are no longer an "Island Nation/Hermit Kingdom/Imperial Empire""

Yes and those people still converse and work in imperial! Thanks for that clarification!

"They tend not to drive here out of confusion with driving on the left"

I assume that that was just based on anti-american ignorance when you realise that most US holiday forms that send their folk to the UK include car hire!

"A metre is hardly thought of as more fun than a yard"

You obviously haven't seen someone drink a yard of ale then!

"who said anything about beer? Can see where your mind's at! Was talking about milk!"

Yes I do enjoy going out

[keep 'em flowing please]

Although I like to hide behind the name of "anonymous" it is important to realise that I think I'm starting to fall in love with SteveH.

erk!

Someone hold the door open!

LOL at the last comments!

To return to the topic, it does seem hypocritical of ARM etc to remove signs placed by the free choice of businesses and impose regulations on them in a 'statist' fashion.

<<
"so that a bunch of politically motivated reactionaries can take their ladders and vandalise this person's property"

Try "ordinary people"! Trouble is , most "ordinary people" can't be bothered to get off their butts to do anything about it so hats of to Tony!
>>

I'm sorry to disappoint you Steve, but a typical member of the British public (ORDINARY PERSON) does not go round defacing road signs. People have more important things to do with their time.

That is exacly my point!

It's a trait of the British that we don't get off our a*ses and do somthing about these things.

We only react when we are taken to extreme.

Look at how WW2 came about!

Wasn't it a case of "ooh they really aren't that bad" , "he said he won't invade us, that's nice" , "I have in my hand..." etc etc

Steveh: "Look at how WW2 came about! Wasn't it a case of "ooh they really aren't that bad" , "he said he won't invade us, that's nice" , "I have in my hand..." etc etc"

Steveh, sometimes you really make me burst out laughing. Keep up the funny remarks !

Indeed what would "life" be without humour?

I don't know.

Ask "anonymous"

Please "anonymous" who posted about falling in love with SteveH- don't sign yourself for me! lol. If I ever FELL in anything it would be with a real man. Not one who measures his worth by jumping up and down about protecting a ridiculous old weights and measuring system and encouraging people with equally ridiulous (though undoubtedly wellmeaning, for themselves) political aspirations. Personally, I believe most UKippers and bwma's fears come from knowing that British women find European men to be more understanding, passionate, better cooks, better fathers, better dressers and MUCH better lovers than Brits ( well, maybe not Welshmen :) ). And that's the real crux of their problem. Get over it and learn from them!

How about posting under a name then? Like "matahari" or something? You only leave yourself open to abuse if you post as a coward (ie 'anonymous') Anyway - you can't fool me! That was definetly you and you dropped your guard for a few moments and showed your real admiration for me. Very flattering but about as welcome as Garry glitter selling puppies at the "kids only" rides at Alton Towers.
BTW I absolutely loved the attempt at a personal attack (a "real" man!) - always remember to shoot yourself in the *other* foot when attempting such a feat.
Latest news just in - the UK is sinking due to the fact that about 90% of its occupants have started jumping up and down!

Look at this gem:
"British women find European men to be more understanding, passionate, better cooks, better fathers, better dressers and MUCH better lovers than Brits"
Note the obvious lack of the word "lady"?
Note that she obviously secretely works for the UKIP? - How? Well aren't British men meant to be "European"?!
Read it again! LOL!
Note also that there appears to be some expert knowledge and experience about the notion that "europeans" are MUCH better lovers? Count how many european countries there are and make up your own minds! Hint: You probably won't need to perfect any chat-up lines with this one!

Eagerly await the next "installment" (Ross: I hope you are still appreciating all this! Keep chuckling mate!)

How do you do it, SteveH?

Although I know we're on this "webby" thing I feel I am falling for you!

It's mainly your humour, I guess, but even your "dark humour" gets me going! Sorry - I'm having one of those "moments" which I'll end up regretting and refuting again.

We totally disagree on measuring things (like your antique "imperial" fuddy duddy stuff) but I feel I'd like to take you for a drink.

To see how "european" you can be [wink wink]!

I know you'll say "no" but what's the harm in an old girl fantasizing?

[sigh]

1) I'm very happy with my current girlfriend thank you! (and who in their right mind would go to the local car sales garage and trade in a fiesty british sports car for a high mileage european taxi?)

2) Ross: Are you still holding that door open please?

OK, to the other Anonymous "me". I'll leave you to flirt with the devil! lol.. I think I might fall for "You" instead... far smarter than MrH with this effort ;) If you can track me down, contact me..always been partial to a clever dick. Personally I don't think I am MrH's type either, though I do have an old Margaret Thatcher mask from a Halloween of long ago..might dig that out for him, if he promised to dress as a jackbooted SS man for me..Phew, I need a cold shower just thinking of that.
Steve, my reference to "European" men were the type you guys are wound up about, you know, like the French ( Mmmmmmmm, Charles, Yves... come to me, mes cheris), the Germans, the Italians ( showers again). Reference to "Europeans" as something 'otherly' was for your tiny views. Of COURSE British men are European. You just have trouble admitting how far you've come since being absorbed into more cultural natures instead of centuries of embroilment in war!
I recommend people on here not to promote their names or adresses to the likes of UKippers/bwma folk.
On this site they mention the likes of "bringing people to account" and other vaugue personal threats to us, our partners, families... and you can all see- they are mischievous trouble makers. Don't let it get into your private lives anymore than letting religious zealots in! No-one needs threats like that for merely advocating we move on with a sense of dignity to something the rest of the planet adopted, most as far back as the 1800s. But slowness to move forward is part of what makes us ridiculous Brits. Time for a laff as I await the usual " what about the U.S" guff.

Am I the only one becoming disturbed by some of this?!

No.

"might dig that out for him, if he promised to dress as a jackbooted SS man for me..Phew, I need a cold shower just thinking of that."

Erm, here comes that squirmish feeling again! So long as you don't know where I live etc I and my otherarf will feel safe! I would find it a bit less confusing if you can settle on either clichés on sizes and some stuff about "european men" (presumably not German from that generalisation) OR the stuff about you falling for me/loving me etc. You need to make your mind up!

"Steve, my reference to "European" men were the type you guys are wound up about"

Yes I must remember to "get wound up about that" next time I'm out with the lads :)

(BTW: you might want to know that lol stands for laugh out load, I assume you believe it means lots-of-love)

"I recommend people on here not to promote their names or adresses to the likes of UKippers/bwma folk"

So using a post name of "SteveH, Ross, Richard, Matahari, etc" gives away the addresses of the posters?
Which school did you attend?!?

"On this site they mention the likes of "bringing people to account" and other vaugue personal threats to us, our partners, families."

1) If you are short changed when asking for a pint of milk/ beer whatever - do you happily give that money away or do you "bring them to account"
2) Your re-Interpretation of "bringing to account" shows a revealing insight to whatr is bad about Europe - thanks for that insight!

"something the rest of the planet adopted, most as far back as the 1800s"

Showing your age there too - my "guesstimate" was correct!

Great stuff this.
My favourite bit? Hmmm, possibly the notion of having problems with "european" men!

Might be good to remind views of the views expressed by this poster (and to re-enforce that viewpoints expressed by those who post here need not reflect the views and policies of the BWMA):

1) Imperial users are child abusers
2) Those who prefer imperial would like to see the mass slaughter of homosexuals
3) Imperial users wear "jackboots" and other German generalisations
4) Those who prefer to use imperial are akin to religeous zealots (all 90%+ of us)

Need to hear more from the extremist point of view - fortunately most here, on both "sides of the fence", find her ramblings amusing rather than offensive or insulting - hence the good people of BWMA letting her "get away with it" rather than censor (hats of to you, BWMA!)

P.S. Went and looked at a sports car on Saturday - you know - the sort with wheels on!

Viewpoints expressed by those who post here do not reflect the views and policies of BWMA.

(Is that okay?)

<<
1) Imperial users are child abusers
2) Those who prefer imperial would like to see the mass slaughter of homosexuals
3) Imperial users wear "jackboots" and other German generalisations
4) Those who prefer to use imperial are akin to religeous zealots (all 90%+ of us)
>>

I would just like to say that if these sort of comments have been made, I condemn them and would just like to say that not all metricists think like that.

To BWMA:
I was mentioning that "viewpoint" thing on your behalf - just in case! ;)

To Richard:
Yes, I realise this and no doubt the pro-choice (pro-imperial, whatever) know that most metric supporters come here and make a good argument. To be honest it is always most difficult when arguing with a cogent, consistent and non-emotional pro-m poster than it is the extremist type. It is a relief once in a while to get the berserker attitude of "anonymous/matahari" and I hope that the "normal" pro-m type find humour in the crossfire (albeit slightly embarrassing for the pro-m that this individual professes to be a pro-m).

Believe me, when the extremist sort come here I love it! It's akin to poking an alligator with a stick! Very dangerous but exciting and (perversely, may be) fun!

That is why I am glad that BWMA have left her to post un-censored! For 2 reasons:

1) It makes my day less boring taunting "those sort".
2) It is a wonderful boost for the likes of the BWMA (ie negative publicity for the "other side", if you get my drift).

So, "long may she post"!

And I hope that the moderate pro-metric type here continue to laugh at the crossfire realising that we don't tar every pro-metric type with the same brush.

SteveH - I am truly falling in love with you! Do you have a fan club? I'll be your bestest member!

I'll stop now as I'm having one of my "moments".

I'll post the venemous stuff later.

Toodle pip for now old timers!

XX

1) I believe most posters here are not that old

2) Errr, that door please?


(P.S. I reckon FredrickR is the youngest poster here, what do we all reckon?)

always most difficult when arguing with a cogent, consistent and non-emotional pro-m poster than it is the extremist type.

****** as opposed to people who can argue back on your own level?
------------------------------------------------------


Believe me, when the extremist sort come here I love it! It's akin to poking an alligator with a stick! Very dangerous but exciting and (perversely, may be) fun!

****** alligator? An alligator such as you would terrify me as much as a worm. You are just gutted that a woman can take you on. No need to describe oneself as a "lady" here, as "gentleman" you have already proven not to be. The metric guys, undoubtedly. The pattern is always obvious; calm, rational and sensible. Imperial- aggressive, hysterical, senseless!

Thanks Anonymous Mini-ME. Will leave you to keep posting as "me" for as long as you like. Am off to the Euro-Homeland to engage with the Dark Forces there ( well, languish on the beaches of the Amalfi coastline, enjoying excellent wine, well mannered people, educated children, reliable trains and men who lurrrrvve women). Am grateful for such niceties between neighbours and can forget those who would promote disharmony between us ( as much as they can try to at least!)
-------------------------------------------------------
That is why I am glad that BWMA have left her to post un-censored! For 2 reasons:

**** "Left her to post"?, read "GRATEFUL"! This whole site only has a handful of posters! Quite sad for something broaching an issue threatening the very fabric of British life as we know it. Yeah, right!
-------------------------------------------------------

1) It makes my day less boring taunting "those sort".
2) It is a wonderful boost for the likes of the BWMA (ie negative publicity for the "other side", if you get my drift).

**** Those "sort"? You mean people who begin with civil conversation who can stand up to nutters who use terms like "nazis/jackbooted/treasonous/Brussels control/thought police, etc" in reference to people who would prefer to see a standard system of weights and measures to save confusion, protect consumers etc. Some people ARE capable of tackling the point in the same tones with the "likes of" SteveH in his own terms? Too funny indeed. Whatever next? Gay Bishops?

If you're so tolerant and level-headed a young man, Steve, why promote and encourage the actions of folk who maraud around vandalising and "exterminating" signs put up, by free choice, of British people in a system we have been well educated in. Hypoctritical, don't you think?
------------------------------------------------------
So, "long may she post"!

Will post for as long as I feel the need to keep poking the stick at you lot. You then give away as much as you HAVE (to the relevant bodies contacted who monitor the site) to see what they face from your angle. Mission acomplished.
------------------------------------------------------

And I hope that the moderate pro-metric type here continue to laugh at the crossfire realising that we don't tar every pro-metric type with the same brush.

***** stay, "moderate" guys and dolls ;) Poor Steve, remember, when you point a finger, three are pointing at yourself, and as a believer in a Higher Power, that power gave us 10 fingers and a sensible system now based on 10s to make our lives much easier! What we say colloquially is all well and good. I do myself.
Unless of course you are like a bwma/UKipper moderator who thinks counting and measuring are such strange bedfellows neither the twain should meet.
Arrivederci

Looks like I hit the target on the last one - she's obviously reeling at being attacked by what she perceived to be her "own side"!

But lets see if we can reeeeaaaally get this old girl to blow further! I'm sure there's more that we can wind up out of her.

[he puts his doctors hat on to aid prognosis:]

[Adopts german "professor style" accent (see? they're not all jackboot wearers!):]

She says: "as opposed to people who can argue back on your own level"

Prognosis: She needs to re-read what pro-metric types are posting about her. She also need to read both the heated arguments and the fun banter that goes on on this site in the other "threads" between both sides to recognise that she is on a "side" of just one. ie: nobody likes you!

And I mean outside this board too!

She says "An alligator such as you would terrify me as much as a worm"
Prognosis: A poor attempt at 'reversing' who is saying what, must try harder. Me thinks the worm bit has something to do with an envy of sorts

She says "You are just gutted that a woman can take you on"
Prognosis: Self importance delusion! Well that's what the girlfriend told me while clutching a rolling pin!

She says "as "gentleman" you have already proven not to be. The metric guys, undoubtedly"

Prognosis: They're not with you, I'm afraid. Learn to live with that and move on.

She says "The pattern is always obvious; calm, rational and sensible. Imperial- aggressive, hysterical, senseless"

Prognosis: Dementia!

She said "Am off to the Euro-Homeland to engage with the Dark Forces there ( well, languish on the beaches of the Amalfi coastline"

Prognosis: Latest news just in: Property prices have crashed along the Amalfi coastline. Economists are stunned and can only put it down to an oncoming depression caused by the arrival of unwelcome news!

She said "reliable trains and men who lurrrrvve women"

Prognosis: Stay away from those tracks and don't be too embarrased if all the men are hiding

She said "You mean people who begin with civil conversation who can stand up to nutters who use terms like nazis/jackbooted froth froth"

Prognosis: She has predictibley accused people of the very terminology that she brought to this site. She was the first one to bring up a link between boots and Germans. Here, have this tissue and wipe that froth away.

She said "in reference to people who would prefer to see a standard system of weights and measures to save confusion, protect consumers etc"

Prognosis: Stop clutching at non-existant straws for your point to be heard by us normal folk (both pro and anti). You're arguments have been based on berserk insults and never about measurements. Tell me - is "millimetre" metric or imperial? No looking it up now! That'll be cheating!

She said "Whatever next? Gay Bishops"

Prognosis: What's this hangup with Gay people?

She said: "who maraud around vandalising and "exterminating" signs put up"

Prognosis: A little bit emotional, shall we say? Where are arsenal playing for the moment?

She said: "Will post for as long as I feel the need to keep poking the stick at you lot"

Prognosis: Another bad "copy" of SteveH's point about her - badly executed too. However at least with "you lot" she's starting to recognise that she's on her own!

She said: "to the relevant bodies contacted who monitor the site"

Prognosis: Not sure if this is a threat or not. If it is then "LOL" (no, no, no it's NOT lots of love!)

She said: "Poor Steve, remember, when you point a finger, three are pointing at yourself, "

Prognosis: Depends how I position my hand - twist - fumble - BY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT! Try it - take your forefinger and point it away. Now take your other fingers and bend them inward and towards yourself - FOLKS! STOP THE PRESS! She's got something right!

(This is great!)

Please stick around matahari/anonymous! You're making my day - especially the mind image of a red face going purple!

BTW - you'll note that my post name always has my email address under it so if you REALLY wanted to be mean.....

The only email you'll get from me is one with a big kiss on it!

Oh dear - I've done it again!

No thanks!

Whassat?

eh?



No! Not even if you've immac'd

Sorry, to see Anon not coming back. I enjoyed popping in here now and then. But the "gay" thing finally prompted a post.
DON'T go to Britain's largest gay website called Gay.com ( not that you would OF COURSE).
On the membership page, to sign up, there is a choice ( frightening isn't in "UKIPPERS"?) to put height or weight in metric or imperial. All members on that site for UK and Ireland have CHOSEN (frightening isn't it "UKippers?) to give their stats using kg/cm, every single profile I looked at. BTW, Anon, Matahari, forget real men, Girl! Find a real woman. A quick look at the UKIPPERS reminded me why I am gay.
Next point: think Imperial", think Queens and palaces ( does "valet" have one "L" or two?). Yes, sad to say the gays have, are and always will be behind
(EEK) the powers that be in what is described by our press as those "gay bordellos" called palaces. Be warned: If they are using metric, setting a trend,the straight crowd will follow soon enough, that's the way it goes, lads.
Little Lolitre.

"Spell and grammer check" would have a field day with that "post". Sorry but I can make neither head or tail of it.

Not gone on holiday yet then?

My prediction: She *has* gone on holiday, she's had a few drinks, she's logged onto a pc in a cybercafe to check her emails and couldn't resist posting to her hero on this site!

Me a great detective?
Wellllll
Doesn't take a genius dose it?

Do post again after those coffees have taken effect!

also, am I the only one to take for granted that the bit she's going on about re: entering height in either system, is obviously translated for the site?
Without even going there (I won't!) am I not stating the bleedin' obvious or is this person clearly 5 PSI short of an inflated tyre!?

>>> "Unless of course you are like a bwma/UKipper moderator who thinks counting and measuring are such strange bedfellows neither the twain should meet".

That is not quite how it was put. They do meet, but remain separate. Like land and sea.

"Lolitre" ( best name ever! well done lass!!) As a reward- please feel free to email me ( who said I was heterosexual?)... we'll talk. yes, Dear VALET has two "L"s.. read- "royaL vaLet". Reminds me of how a bearded man in a pink satin gown can prance amongst our "imperial highnesses" unchallenged even to the point of physically kissing our future king..Nothing out of the ordinary there, obviously- sooooo British, sooooo imperial..and long may those "Queens behind the scenes" ( behind? oops..am I being naughty on a "ukipper" site?)..and long may they continue to show examples of being well ahead of the times in trends forever :) Did take a quick look at the gay.com pages. Indeed the CHOICE is there for metric or imperial stats. Must be a clever program which defaults to metric no matter how one types 5ft9", 5'9in or whatever! Especially as it is indeed a US site. Point noted on the applet for- "searching members within __km of your ZIPcode"..LOL..those yankees!
Anyway, got to jump into my motorised geriatric wheel chair and pull my new thigh length jackboots on ( alligator skin now. Had enough left over from Steve's mouth alone to make a fab Maggie T handbag.) Back to my grey concrete bunker I go...til next time ;)
****Still checking IP addresses, Steve? Sadly I am not in Italy or anyone else but me..You really had me thinking I had more personalities than Sybil for a while! ( One of them is stalking me.....)

I wonder whether there should be a new thread called "Anything that is irrelevant goes here".

"Still checking IP addresses, Steve? Sadly I am not in Italy or anyone else but me..You really had me thinking I had more personalities than Sybil for a while! ( One of them is stalking me.....)"

Eh?

BTW, why are you posting messages to this site to the other chap (re: Lolitter) when all you need to do is chat to her during a fag break?

(how many unintended puns did I just do there?)

Re: "Who can claim the lowest IQ" award: Ask any yank, brit or Oz how tall they are then go figure!

she gone again :(

maybe she's back in "the clink" ; )

I am not a British nor a Frenchie, but in 1790 the governement of France offered to work together to uniformise weight and measure, the British scientist were very eager to do that, but the politicians as usal denied the offer. The french went on and decided to use something natural as a standard and they choosed the earth, in order again to convince later the Brit. and not use the foot af a king to avoid children's problems of the type: our king is better than yours! but the Brit, again denied the offer. Can you immagine how much money problems and troubles you'd have avoided, and for your american cousin too. But there is one thing that the antimetric people seem to ignore you have been metric a long time ago, when you stated to use the electrical measure, you use metric, you can say 20 mV or 10 kA, so for which reason is it so difficult to use mg or km. When you talk about choice, it is the poor people who asked for a unified system, to prevent land lords to cheat whith them, as they had their own standards, sometime one to buy and an one to sell. I lived in Australia for three years in the seventies and as a mechanic I had to have three sets of wrenches sorry spanners in my tool box (brit. US. metric) I am glad to think that future generation will not face such stupidity. So you, who are draging your feet, think that in two generations you will be either laughed at or forgotten, like the one who did not want to change calender, it has taken the same time around 175 years,I am talking switching from Julian calendar to the Gregorian one. Seeing the argumentation of the anti-metric from outside the imperial world make me laugh, but I can see that many people have a lot of common sense, like the politicians of 1790 should have had.

To clear up a longstanding myth, the foot is not based on a king's foot. It's length is probably based on the distance the eye can cover at arm's length without moving the head (a modern example: the width of a computer monitor).

BWMA is not too concerned with which units are used for electrics, only basic volume/length/weight.

>>> for which reason is it so difficult to use mg or km?

Difficulty is not the issue; it is a matter of choice.

>>> When you talk about choice, it is the poor people who asked for a unified system...

We already have a unified system, which most Britons are supportive of. Demands for a compulsory metric system come from other quarters.

BWMA wrote

<<
We already have a unified system
>>

and the tooth fairy is alive and well.

If the tooth fairy does not believe it is unified, please provide an explanation.

I suggest that you look at Chris Kaese's excellent summary of metric system (or more correctly SI). This is an example of why SI is called a "unified system".

Then ask yourself whether or not it is possible to summarise the Imperial System of weights and measures (incuding all the derived units) in as little space as Chris has done.

If you are unable to come anywhere near what Chris has done, then you will see why I was so scornful of your suggestion that the Imperial SYstem is a "Unified System".

Chris's summary can be found at:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cdkaese/tables.htm#Table_SI_Base_Units


BTW, what did you get for "A" level Physics?

Why does one need A level Physics for an appreciation of weights and measures? Why do scientific types think that only they may have a view on this subject?

Re: Chris Kaese's summary of metric system. I have viewed it. There are terms such as yocto, kerma, steradian and kg·m²/A²· s²

While these may be beautiful to the scientific and bureaucratic communities, they mean little or nothing to hundreds of thousands of people involved in the retail trade, or millions of consumers. The purpose of BWMA is to ensure that people have access to weights and measures that are meaningful.

Look at it this way, everybody knows the definition of pounds per sq inch - because it defines itself. The definition of the metrical version - bars - is not universally known. The layman can undertand the former, but not the latter.

<<
Look at it this way, everybody knows the definition of pounds per sq inch - because it defines itself
>>

If you had an "A" level in Physics you would appreciate that the term "pounds per square inch" varies by about 0.5% between the poles and the equator because of the difference in gravity at these two points.

For the record, acceleration due to gravity at the equator is approximately 9.78 m/s^2 while at tejh poles it is approximately 9.83 m/s^2.

Forum Owner wrote

<<
While these may be beautiful to the scientific and bureaucratic communities, they mean little or nothing to hundreds of thousands of people involved in the retail trade, or millions of consumers.
>>

I spent about a year and a half in Germany. While I was there I frequently bought Dr. Otkar's pizzas. My wife occasionally buys these pizzas in England. The intructions on the reverse of the box are in 12 different languages.

With the imminenet increase in the number of memeber states in the EU, the number of languages on the box might well increase and things will become unmanageable. The alternative is to print the widely used EU langauges.

The three most widely used languages in the EU are English, French and German with English becoming most widely used, particulalrly as a second langauge. People in the smaller countries are used following instructions in one of these languages if their own language is not present.

Metric units are universal across the EU - 500g means the same in Germany as it does in Lithuania or Spain. If the pressue inBritian is such that German manufacturers of pizzas use Imperial units in the English text, but metric units in the German and French texts, the Lithuanian housewife will find the German or the French text easier to follow. This will result in the advantages that English has being lost.

If you want English to become the premier language in the EU, then a price has to be paid and part of that price is to use the metric system rather than the Imperial system of units.

thanks "The tooth fairy" for the Chris's email address it is really wonderfull.

Martin: "Metric units are universal across the EU - 500g means the same in Germany as it does in Lithuania or Spain. If the pressue inBritian is such that German manufacturers of pizzas use Imperial units in the English text, but metric units in the German and French texts, the Lithuanian housewife will find the German or the French text easier to follow. This will result in the advantages that English has being lost."

I think that's a bit far-fetched Martin, but I get your point.
I think manufacturers should be compelled to use metric-only labelling on their products, no matter where they are sold. Only then we would be making progress. Imperialists who want freedom of choice can always look up the equivalent in antiquated units on the Internet.

Conrad wrote

<<
I think that's a bit far-fetched Martin, but I get your point.
>>

About a year ago I was working in Italy. While I was there I overheard part of a discussion between a German supplier and an Italian customer. They were talking in English!

Also, while in Italy, I oberved how many notices (eg in hotles) were translated into English,but not into German or French.

On another occasion, while I was in the Netherlands, I visited a bookshop. In the shop I saw a shelf marked "Franse boeke" (French books) and anotehr shelf maked "Duitse boeke" (German books). I looked for the self "Engelse boeke" (English books) but could not find it. The English titles were mixed up with the Dutch titles and were located by subject matter.

Eddie: "So you, who are draging your feet, think that in two generations you will be either laughed at or forgotten,"

ROTFL! How many decades have the anti-imperial brigade (all 7 of them, UK wide) been waiting for this to happen already! How it must annoyed them when imperial was re-introduced into education in the 90's!



Conrad: "I think manufacturers should be compelled to use metric-only labelling on their products, no matter where they are sold. Only then we would be making progress. Imperialists who want freedom of choice can always look up the equivalent in antiquated units on the Internet"

There's zat "compelled" word again you naughty boy!
Anyway you forget that we CANNOT look those measures up on the internet as we fear change and the internet is the tool of the EU - or something...

"Anyway you forget that we CANNOT look those measures up on the internet as we fear change and the internet is the tool of the EU - or something..."

Big EU Brother is watching you, SteveH. And we'll soon confiscate your Mini, since the wheel is on the anti-European side of ze car ! Moreover, having a mileometer with kilometres in small print is EU blasphemy ! Your car will be burnt at the "non-compliant citizens stake".

No it can't ! I used MER polish and according to the advert you can put lighter fluid on it then light it and the finish will stay the same!

Ner!

(thumbing nose)

>>> If you had an "A" level in Physics you would appreciate that the term "pounds per square inch" varies by about 0.5% between the poles and the equator because of the difference in gravity at these two points.

Well, the next time I drive from the north pole to the south pole, I'll remember that, so I can pump up the tyre pressure to just the right amount. This is another example of metric scientific purity that has no practical application for the vast majority of people in day-to-day situations.

<<
This is another example of metric scientific purity that has no practical application for the vast majority of people in day-to-day situations.
>>

If you look at your bathroom scales (or indeed many type of spring balance), you will see the words "Not legal for trade". One of the reason why they are not legal for trade is that they rely on gravity pulling against a spring and since gravity varies, so will the reading on the scale. If however you used a beam balance, you would be balancing one gravitational force against another, so the variations due to latitude would cancel out. That is why almost all balances that are used for trade rely on the product being weighed lifting up a piuece of metal of known mass.

And why does understanding that entitle you to dictate the choice of units to others? The scientific community should stick to the science and ensure standards. The choice of units should be left to the consumer.

If you look at your bathroom scales (or indeed many type of spring balance), you will see the words "Not legal for trade".



"No it doesn't"
===============

<<The choice of units should be left to the consumer.>>

The consumer has not had a choice of units since the magna carta in 1215 when it was decided to use one system of measurement in Britain.

I worry for the future of this country if we cant even sort out a system of measurement.

"I worry for the future of this country if we cant even sort out a system of measurement."

I cannot see why having both measures being used domestically should be in any way worrying.

There are only two measurement system that are internationally recognised and used domestically - metric and imperial. I could understand the fuss if there were 8 or nine commonly used different systems.

And to call it constantly "in limbo" would sound rather weird to, say , a swiss person where things are commonly labelled up in 3 different languages in his/her country.

You cannot deny the popularity of imperial in the US and UK - and you must accept that it simply won't *go away* (unless you do what Franco did to the basques (language) and criminalise it's use privately).

Perhaps those on the more aggresive pro-metric stance should perhaps just get used to the popularity of imperial and get over it.

I'd hate to be anti-imperial - constantly hoping and thinking that the imperial system will go away only to wake up every morning to see this "stone age" "archaic" "stupid" "non-sensical" system still firmly being used.

Just get over it!

(although I'd have to admit that if you did simply accept it it would make life on these boards a little boring!!)

Of course it will go away.

The only thing keeping it going is its use in the media & on roadsigns etc. When they are metric-only the transition will begin. I'm not saying it will happen overnight but when you can no longer see or read imperial, its use will naturally die out.

The only way it won't die out is if roadsigns etc remain in imperial.

That a curious way of putting - imperial will be removed, then it will die out. It appears to suggest that imperial will not die out as a result of natural evolution, or through choice.

<<That a curious way of putting - imperial will be removed, then it will die out. It appears to suggest that imperial will not die out as a result of natural evolution, or through choice. >>

Of course it won't just happen through evolution. If people only see roadsigns in miles, why would they suddenly start thinking in kilometres?

People always resist change unless there is a clear incentive for them as an individual. Sometimes the government has to act in the best interests of the country even if it is unpopular at the time.

Most people opposed changing to decimal currency. Does that mean the government shouldn't have done it?

Let me repeat a section of my message that compliments your post beautifully:

"I'd hate to be anti-imperial - constantly hoping and thinking that the imperial system will go away only to wake up every morning to see this "stone age" "archaic" "stupid" "non-sensical" system still firmly being used."

ROTFL (part 2)

I've seen the new "I've lost the argument" excuse from the aggressively anti-imperial side!

It used to be "decimal currency"

Today's poor excuse for people saying "gallon", "pound", "acre", "pint" etc rests solely on the signposts on UK roads!

What a hoot!

you've completely lost me. was that a reply to my post?

<<"I'd hate to be anti-imperial - constantly hoping and thinking that the imperial system will go away only to wake up every morning to see this "stone age" "archaic" "stupid" "non-sensical" system still firmly being used.">>

Sorry to disappoint you, but like most of the other pro-metrics I am nowhere near as extreme as you lot on the imperial side. I am certainly not anti-imperial. I sometimes use it.

I'd hate to be so obsessed with clinging on to imperial measurements that I dread the day each little part of it is lost.