What would happen to the BWMA if Parliament passed a new Weights and Measures Act tomorrow, making the metric system compulsory once and for all? From what I've read, that would be it for BWMA, right? Or would you go on campaigning for the reintroduction of pounds/miles/acres?!

It would probably descend into some sort of cult such as those who currently favour the reintroduction of the Roman Empire.

I would have thought that such an Act would itself bring us closer to a pre-democractic age. It would be totalitarian in nature and would be opposed by people far beyond BWMA.

Ross: "It would probably descend into some sort of cult such as those who currently favour the reintroduction of the Roman Empire."

Huh? Who's in favour of that ?

Who knows? There's probably a few.

Such an act could be challenged on freedom of speech grounds, perhaps. Is there anything in the European Charter of Rights (or whatever it's called) discussing freedom of speech?

Section 10 protects freedom of expression.

Section 9 says:

"Jump to section 11"

Thank you all for your answers and comments. However, how an Act of Parliament dealing with weights and measures in a perfectly consistent way (which, incidentally, is the way of almost every other country in the world) could be called "totalitarian in nature", is beyond me. Are all those countries "totalitarian", or have they been at some time in the past (i.e., when introducing the metric system)?! And didn't the "metric martyrs" base their case on the absolute "sovereignty of parliament", which BWMA's statement seems to qualify (as far as I can see) to the point that parliament is only sovereign in so far as it acts according to the BWMA's agenda?

BWMA wrote:
"I would have thought that such an Act would itself bring us closer to a pre-democractic age. It would be totalitarian in nature and would be opposed by people far beyond BWMA."

<<
However, how an Act of Parliament dealing with weights and measures in a perfectly consistent way (which, incidentally, is the way of almost every other country in the world) could be called "totalitarian in nature", is beyond me.
>>

If an act of parliament is not supported by 90% of the population, it is totalitarian. This act would be a clear case of minority dominance of the majority.

(Sorry to bring up that statistic again. I know some of you are sick of it.)

"If an act of parliament is not supported by 90% of the population, it is totalitarian. This act would be a clear case of minority dominance of the majority. "

Agreed - but to make things worse this is all sourced in Brussels.
Only then do you realise why parliament (or rather this govt's huge majority) would pass something that is not supported to the huge majority of people who elected them.

Again - this is an example of government of the people, rather than by or for the people.

It is very wrong and very un-British.

"If an act of parliament is not supported by 90% of the population, it is totalitarian. This act would be a clear case of minority dominance of the majority."

Totalitarianism is a genuine concern about one party states where opposition is ruthlessly oppressed. We should be serious in avoiding the use of the term here.

It is true that, whatever problems some of us might have had with the 1985 Act, the argument of the Metric Martyrs was that it was an Act passed by a sovereign Parliament. If a new Act were to be passed, it would have the same authority. We should not forget that this is a Parliament that we elected, and if it does things which a majority of the public oppose then we only have ourselves to blame. The central point is that legislators are representatives, not delegates. They are not there to express the opinions of their constituents: we choose them to exercise their own judgment taking all factors into account, one of which is those opinions.

http://www.imprint.co.uk/pdf/dumbing_down.pdf

Ross: That's precisely what I have been trying to point out. I can't see anything "totalitarian" in a parliament not always following opinion polls. (Apart from the fact that the inflationary use of this term is a slap in the face of those who have really suffered under those régimes).

On a different note, I have just been reading the Anti-US-metric-statement by the BWMA: "The archetype kilogram is stored in a vault near Paris - and the US requires permission from the French government to examine it."

This is, with all respect, total nonsense. The kilogram in these days is no longer defined and administrated in 19th century nationalist fashion, but by international agreements favouring no particular nation; in fact, the scientific commission of the SI bureau is at the moment trying to redefine the kilogram in a much more precise way that satisfies the needs of modern science (a process in which, incidentally, British scientists have a considerable stake).

Why does BWMA have to rely on arguments like the one above? I might indeed have some sympathies with its cultural intention, but with those arguments I feel that I'm not being taken seriously here. Pity!

<<
On a different note, I have just been reading the Anti-US-metric-statement by the BWMA: "The archetype kilogram is stored in a vault near Paris - and the US requires permission from the French government to examine it."
>>

The archtype kilogram is stored at Sevres which is international territory and has been since the COnvention of the Metre was signed in 1875. The site at Sevres is administered by the International Bureau for Weights and Measures (web site www.bipm.fr). The BIPM has a similar status to the Red Cross or United Nations, though is has a much lower profile that those organisations.

If the US Government (or the government of any other member state) wish to examine the prototype kilogram (each member state has its own copy), they would deal with the General committee of the BIPM. The general committee has sixteen members - each member must be from a different country. (The French did manage to get a permananet seat on the committee since they donated the site, but they would probably have a member anyway).

It is true that if the US Government wished to bring their standard kilogram to Sevres for comparison with the official prototype, they would have to cross French territory, but they would do so with diplomatic privillege. (The same would happen in reverse if the prototype kilogram was stored in the UN headquarters instead of at Sevres and the French wished to examine it).

martin: Thank you for the backup information - which only strengthens my point that the metric system has in fact never - not even in the 19th century - been administered in a narrow nationalist way. To denounce those who have, for very good reasons, joined the system, as part of an international conspiracy keen to centralise everything and wipe out local traditions and customs just for the sake of destroying them: that seems, at least in my eyes, to miss the point remarkably.
But anyway, my questions have been answered. A viable alternative to the campaign being currently fought would seem to me a campaign for a new, metre-compatibel imperial system, like the one conrad suggested on the other forum. Even if it does not satisfy everybody's nostalgic dreams, it would keep the spirit of a long communicational and cultural tradition alive - and not the dead letter. BWMA: Why don't you take up that issue, or at least give it a serious thought (not brushing it off, like you did with conrad's proposal earlier this year)?! THAT would be a truly patriotic deed...(and then I, and possibly 100% of all Britons, would be with you...)

It is this sort of nationalist argument which we often hear: we can't possibly use the metric system because it was invented by some foreigners (much like the basis of the imperial system), or maybe it's all part of some Franco-Irish, Italo-Polish, Roman Catholic heretic conspiracy which only true Aryans can oppose.

As for the future of the imperial system, I cannot see any way in which the system can survive into the future without its reversion to rational metric equivalents, as has happened in other European countries. We will hear the usual opposition to the use of the term again, but it is inevitable.

"inevitable" appears to be the long-long-long running favourite word of the metriphiles.

I suppose you have to have hope.

Steveh, we KNOW...

The word "inevitable" is the one that winds up the imperialists most, because at the end of the day the arguments for and against each system are now irrelevant - every country in the world is either metric already or going metric

Its not as if we are faced with a choice of either metric or imperial. If that was the case this debate would be a lot more relevant.

I think its time for the imperial side to accept the inevitable...

Andrew wrote

<<
A viable alternative to the campaign being currently fought would seem to me a campaign for a new, metre-compatibel imperial system,
>>

TO save you having to wrack you brains, try visiting
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/t_jeff.htm

Thomas Jefferson has already done the job (about 213 years ago). What makes his suggestion worthy is that it pre-dated the metric system by a few years.

Reading his report will make you realise the sort of task that you are up against. Also, remember that his system did not include energy or energy equivalents so it has hte disadvantage of not being able to link electrical and mechanical systems.

In particular, one joule is the work done when a mass of 1kg is moved a distance of 1m against a force of one newton. (1 newton = kg.m/s^2).

One joule is also the energy dissipated when a current of one amp is passed through a resistor of one ohm for one second. These two descriptions (note not definitions) link electrical and mechanical systems. This is one of the reasons why engineers like the metric system.

"at the end of the day the arguments for and against each system are now irrelevant"

Indeed, we seem to have gone round and round the arguments for so many years. They've been almost as well rehearsed as those for and against hunting!

<<
The central point is that legislators are representatives, not delegates. They are not there to express the opinions of their constituents: we choose them to exercise their own judgment taking all factors into account, one of which is those opinions.
>>


Britain needs some sort of direct democracy, like the kind we have here in California. Anyone can propose a law, get it on the ballot by gathering a certain number of signatures, and if a majority of the voters approve it, it becomes part of the constitution and the legislature can't do anything about it. Maybe it is the fear of this type of initiative that is stopping the US from adopting the metric system?

The word "inevitable" is the one that winds up the metriphiles most, because at the end of the day the arguments for and against each system are now irrelevant - every country in the world is either metric already or going metric yet the UK and US - two major players - aren't! In fact there seems to be an imperial "backlash" where imperial has become more popular (possibly due to the notion that the EU is meddling). So the word inevitable is used (and here's the killer) indefinitely!

Its not as if we are faced with a choice of either metric or imperial. If that was the case this debate would be a lot more relevant.

I think its time for the metric side to accept these things and move on...

I think the above gibberish proves my point...

I promise never to use that word again. Lets pretend that both systems have an equal chance of survival

Personally I thought the original was gibberish - but then you did prove my point.

Ok, lets "pretend" then.

SteveH wrote:
"The word "inevitable" is the one that winds up the metriphiles most, because at the end of the day the arguments for and against each system are now irrelevant - every country in the world is either metric already or going metric yet the UK and US - two major players - aren't!"

Oh yes, they are. The US has just restarted the process (or what is BMWA's recent campaign against?!), and the UK IS metric, except for a few exceptions (roads). Shopping has already become legally metric - and I'm sure that in a few years time people will, for instance, use the word "pound" colloquially for 500g, and "ounce" for an amount of either 25 or 50g.
But I agree with those who say that the debate, especially in this country, has become quite irrelevant. The imperial system will die out, bit by bit, and it will not be properly sent off, but kind of screamed away in debates organised by bodies like BWMA. To send part of our cultural heritage off like that - well, it's a pity.

"Oh yes, they are. The US has just restarted the process (or what is BMWA's recent campaign against?!)"

Giggle

"and the UK IS metric, except for a few exceptions (roads)."

When you say "the UK is metric" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean 60million people or do you mean some pieces of paper locked away in Westminster somewhere?

"Shopping has already become legally metric - "

Er, so when I ask for a pound of cheese from a price per pound and i get a pound of cheese then the cheese is illegal? Also - when I go shopping what legal contract do I sign?

"and I'm sure that in a few years time people will, for instance, use the word "pound" colloquially for 500g, and "ounce" for an amount of either 25 or 50g. "

That's right, in the same way people use the word "foot" when they mean foot and "inch" when they want to express inch. ROTFL!

"But I agree with those who say that the debate, especially in this country, has become quite irrelevant."

You're debating it. Does this mean that you concentrate most of your energies on irrelevance?

"The imperial system will die out, bit by bit, and it will not be properly sent off, but kind of screamed away in debates organised by bodies like BWMA."

Matahari? Did you just nick Andy's keyboard? Or have you been at the pop again, Andy?


"To send part of our cultural heritage off like that - well, it's a pity."

It's your dream.
When you are very old please remind me of it!

"I'm sure that in a few years time people will, for instance, use the word "pound" colloquially for 500g, and "ounce" for an amount of either 25 or 50g."

This truly will happen.

Of course, there will always be people like SteveH who keep coming back with anecdotal evidence about some shop in Dunny-on-the-Wolds where Doris goes in, asks for a pound of cheese and actually gets an 'old pound' of 454g rather than 500g.

There will of course be isolated incidents, but when the majority position has replaced imperial units with metric equivalents it will be clear to all that this has happened, however some might attempt to deny it.

<<<<"I'm sure that in a few years time people will, for instance, use the word "pound" colloquially for 500g, and "ounce" for an amount of either 25 or 50g.">>>

pound may become slang for half a kilo, but I can't see ounces being used.

Where's dunny on the wolds?

He he!

You lot are truly delusional!

You'll be bickering about the death of imperial when you're 80!

SteveH wrote:

"Giggle"

Great argument, Steveh!

"When you say "the UK is metric" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean 60million people or do you mean some pieces of paper locked away in Westminster somewhere?"

I mean 60million sensible British people - and of course those few of us who run bodies like the "Royal Society for Putting Things On Top Of Other Things", thereby making this country so entertaining.

"Er, so when I ask for a pound of cheese from a price per pound and i get a pound of cheese then the cheese is illegal? Also - when I go shopping what legal contract do I sign?"

Steveh, go ask a lawyer (for you actually DO enter into a contract). It doesn't really matter in what quantities you order your cheese. You can even, to borrow John Diamond's words, invent your own measures - like the "plotz", of which there are 18 1/2 to the "nitzplitz", and ask for your cheese to be delivered in 5 3/4 plotz-boxes. Your grocer might not like you for that - but his new computerised weighing equipment should take care of it, and will print out the metric equivalent for his books.

"That's right, in the same way people use the word "foot" when they mean foot and "inch" when they want to express inch. ROTFL!"

Hmmm, yeah. I'm just not sure what you are laughing about. You seem not to make any difference between the colloquial use of "foot/inch" and their exact length. What are you driving at? Will the imperialists force (ooops, sorry....er....try to remind) people to only use the term "inch" for distances of precisely 2,54 cm?

"You're debating it. Does this mean that you concentrate most of your energies on irrelevance?"

I'm not quite sure who's spending more energy here at the moment....but, to set your mind at rest: That was my conclusion AFTER my questions had been answered. And, as a true Brit, I don't mind spending a bit of energy on irrelevant, amusing or useless things...

"Matahari? Did you just nick Andy's keyboard? Or have you been at the pop again, Andy?"

Uh-oh, system error....

"It's your dream.
When you are very old please remind me of it!
"

Well, if all imperialists argue (and scream) like this, then the metric camp shouldn't worry. This is indeed a fine example of well-tempered, humorous and witty debating for which we are so famous around the world.
When I'm very old I'll enjoy my new pint (600 ml) of good cold beer and think back of those bad old days when I was served that warm stuff in smaller containers, reminiscing about a very British debate a long time ago that by then will have been finally and well-deservedly buried.

Indeed, in time there will be 'old imperial' purists, who will claim that the 'new' measurements are in fact a corruption of our 'traditional' units.

When, in future, the inch has come to be understood as a colloquial term for 25mm, the pound 500g etc., strong imperialists will attempt to force society not to accept this evolution.

Getting rid of imperial units and using the words "inch" and "pound" to be 25 mm and 500 g will cause more problems than it fixes. The change from inches to centimeters could be gradual, but the change from a 25.4 mm inch to a 25 mm inch could not be gradual as this would cause no end of confusion. The government would have to say "At 12 midnight on January 1, XXXX, the inch will be redefined as ...." Of course, if the US government did not follow (as they did not in 1824) this would cause more problems too.

By the way, I don't care what reality is and what is inevitable and what isn't, but arguing just for the fun of it is quite entertaining anyway.

If you look carefully we appear to be "winding 'em up" rather than arguing - which is truly MORE entertaining!


"Well, if all imperialists argue (and scream) like this,"

The man/woman on the street is not screaming - honestly!

"then the metric camp shouldn't worry."

The metric camp have been worrying since the 60's!

"This is indeed a fine example of well-tempered, humorous and witty debating for which we are so famous around the world."

I assume that you don't mean that the Brits are famous for debating the preference of imperial!

"When I'm very old I'll enjoy my new pint (600 ml)"

LOL

"of good cold beer and think back of those bad old days when I was served that warm stuff in smaller containers"

Nice insight - beer is meant to be served at room temperature (about 65F, ie warm) while lager should be served at between 3 and 5C! It's usually Americans that think that Brits server "warm beer" since they call their lager "beer" and would be horrified to drink, say, a pint of Bud at room temperature.
This seems to go with my thinking that your "findings" about how brits talk etc are pure fantasy because you don't even live here. Is there something you'd like to tell us?

"reminiscing about a very British debate a long time ago that by then will have been finally and well-deservedly buried."

Only you will be very old still trying to convince people that "Britain has gone metric".

Once again:

GO FOR A WALK!

(in Britain, you understand!)

<<<If you look carefully we appear to be "winding 'em up" rather than arguing - which is truly MORE entertaining!>>>

The thing is though, we have nothing to lose!

SteveH wrote:

"This seems to go with my thinking that your "findings" about how brits talk etc are pure fantasy because you don't even live here. Is there something you'd like to tell us?
"

Oh, well...."if you run out of arguments, just declare your opponent to be un-British. Add a pinch of xenophobia. Serve on a narrow plate. Then congratulate yourself on your great victory."

Funny to see how an allegedly patriotic cause is argued in such a....pathetic way (I hesitate to say "un-British", although to my judgment, this way of concluding a debate has very little to do with the country I'd like to be proud of...)

"Once again:

GO FOR A WALK!

(in Britain, you understand!)"

SteveH, just go for a walk until you're house-trained. This is ridiculous.

By the way: since 1988, the already-mentioned BIPM (International Bureau of Weights and Measures) has been led by a British director, T.J. Quinn. So I suggest that BWMA re-phrases its webpage like this:
"
The archetype kilogram is stored in a vault near Paris - and the US requires permission from the British director to examine it.
"


Since there seems to be little more substantial to say, I'd like for my part to conclude this little exchange. Thanks to everybody for their helpful and/or revealing contributions; to the BWMA, I'd like to wish a little more relaxed attitude towards life and some perspective on what really matters.

Andrew (from Oxford, SteveH, if you really need to know)

I find Oxford boring.

Plus too many pot-noodle munchers buying too many pints with my money.

"[T]he change from a 25.4 mm inch to a 25 mm inch could not be gradual as this would cause no end of confusion. The government would have to say "At 12 midnight on January 1, XXXX, the inch will be redefined as ...." Of course, if the US government did not follow (as they did not in 1824) this would cause more problems too."

The point that I am making is that the inch would not be redefined in law. It would simply come to be understood as 25mm rather than 25.4mm. For example, if someone were to say 'measure four inches', and either only a metric ruler was available or the person using it decided to use centimetres, in time they would measure out the distance as 100mm, not 101.6mm.

The imperial purist would say that it was a disgrace, an affront to our national heritage or heresy against God's one chosen system that we should use a 'new' inch, and would therefore attempt to deny the freedom of choice of those who find it easier to consider an inch as 25mm.

Meantime, there would be no definition of the inch in law. It continues to exist at the moment only for the purposes of height restriction signs for road traffic.

SteveH: "I find Oxford boring."

Is it too metric over there ?

"Meantime, there would be no definition of the inch in law. It continues to exist at the moment only for the purposes of height restriction signs for road traffic."

In the UK we buy fans, pizzas, houses (estate agent info), records, pc stuff, digicams, TV's, many swimming pools, diy stuff, tyres, wheels, car accessories, "developed" photos, trousers, shirts, pants, rulers (..I'll stop now..) in INCHES.

Come and visit sometime to find out more.

In the meantime visit:

www.i-know-nothing-about-britain.com

and look at subject:

"Walking around Britain with my eyes and ears shut"

(sorry for borrowing someone elses tagline there!)

P.S. Oxford "metric"?

LOL!

"P.S. Oxford 'metric'?

LOL!"

Oxford metric! Research departments (science & humanities), classes, schools, colleges, indeed the entire university, supermarkets, greengrocers (no need to sex up this place here by creating "martyrs"), the car factory (that's why it still exists), hardware shops....

Come and visit sometime to find out more.

By the way:

"In the UK we buy fans, pizzas, houses (estate agent info), records, pc stuff, digicams, TV's, many swimming pools, diy stuff, tyres, wheels, car accessories, "developed" photos, trousers, shirts, pants, rulers (..I'll stop now..) in INCHES."

Here in Oxford, we don't buy records by saying "I'd like to have that 11 1/2 inch record by Elvis Presley." We prefer to just name its title. Our PC stuff (including floppy disks) is metric, so are our TVs (except for the supplementary info on width of screen)(the manufacturers in Japan, China and Korea couldn't care less about the imperial system), diy stuff, and so is (except for tyre/wheel size), thankfully, my car.

Then again, might be different in Dunny-on-the-wolds...

"In the UK we buy fans, pizzas, houses (estate agent info), records, pc stuff, digicams, TV's, many swimming pools, diy stuff, tyres, wheels, car accessories, "developed" photos, trousers, shirts, pants, rulers (..I'll stop now..) in INCHES."

This has nothing to do with the fact that the inch is only defined in law for one purpose. This will cause problems in future when trade descriptions continue to be non-SI and trading standards have to police a non-defined system. In future, the inch will come to be understood as 25mm and thus there could certainly be disputes on which 'inch' was used in a particular case. The law will then be unable to arbitrate. The easy method is to require such descriptions to be given in metric.

Incidentally, I do not appreciate your constant response that everyone who disagrees with you is not from Britain.

<<
The point that I am making is that the inch would not be redefined in law
>>


It would have to be redefined in law.

For example, right now if you ask a grocer for a pound of something, you get 454 g. As of when would the grocer be required to give you 500 g if you ask for a pound? Would it be up to the grocer whether to use the old pound or the new?

AS UK law stands at the moment, th epound and the inch have no legal standing. Moreover Parliament could not redefine the inch or the pound without reference to the European Union.

Prior to the EU directive 80/181/EEC it was permisable for German market stall holders to advertise good by the pfund, Dutch market stall holders to advertise by the pond, French market store holders to advertise by the livre (all of which were 500g). The directove however required them to use the term 500g rather than pfund, pond livre etc.

BTW teh livre legally became 500g in 1812, the pond in 1820 and the pfund in 1871 (the zollpfund or customs pound having been set at 500g in the 1830's).

The pound is undefined in UK law.

Thus, someone asking for a pound is told (or at least, should be): 'I cannot sell you a pound, but I can sell you 454g, which I will price at the labelled unit amount'.

[Response is either: 'OK' or 'evil Eurocrat scum', depending on who the customer is.]

From 2010, the supplementary indication on the label will be removed and the pound unit price will be unknown. In time, the pound will be rounded off to 500g. It will then be an extremist who, on asking for a pound and being given 500g will say: 'No, I want a 'real' pound, not this new evolutionary nonsense'.

The retailer is never required to do anything when asked for 'a pound', this will just be a slang term for the metric amounts. The problem is that one person's slang will be another's corruption of the pound. Since 2000, the pound has had no status and all unit price transactions are made in kilograms.

The pound is defined in UK law. However, under the 1994 regulations, it may not be used for trade. What, then, will be removed from 2010?

I apologise for my mistake: there is a definition of sorts, but only for the purpose of stating exactly what isn't allowed; there is no definition for positive use.

As far as 2010 is concerned, I expect that when we arrive at that date there will be new regulations to amend the relevant legislation, or maybe we will even have the pleasure of a new Bill to deal with the 2010 point alongside all other remaining metrication issues.

Some may regard it as sufficient simply to let the date run over and for supplementary indications to automatically fall.

But if supplementary unit lies outside the retail transaction, and is simply addititional information provided at the private choice of the retailer, what is it that the government banning in 2010?

BWMA,

You can't have it both ways.

ARM, whom you support, object to supplementary metric indications on road signs.

The difference with road signs that they are funded by the state sector funded by the public - permission must be sought from the people. No such permission is needed to provide information in the private sector.

"Here in Oxford, we don't buy records by saying "I'd like to have that 11 1/2 inch record by Elvis Presley." We prefer to just name its title."

Let me get this right. You are telling me that you do not know what is meant by "the 7-inch version and the 12-inch version" ?


" Our PC stuff (including floppy disks) is metric"

If you did around! Take a walk around PC world!

"so are our TVs (except for the supplementary info on width of screen)(the manufacturers in Japan, China and Korea couldn't care less about the imperial system)"

Have you EVER heard anyone talk (as a keen TV/HIFI person) about TV's in cm? Do me a favour, pick up a copy of any video/tv enthusiast magazine. Read the TEXT of the review.


", diy stuff, and so is (except for tyre/wheel size), thankfully, my car. "

Again - look at the tools in B&Q and talk to an car enthusiast about cars. Be prepared for a lot of the following:

"

"In future, the inch will come to be understood as 25mm and thus there could certainly be disputes on which 'inch' was used in a particular case"

I am actually starting to believe that you really think this way! Initially I thought it was a wind-up attempt, but you really think this don't you?

"Incidentally, I do not appreciate your constant response that everyone who disagrees with you is not from Britain"

Not so - all I am saying is that you are totally delusional from some of your stuff and a walk down a busy street in Britain will sort this out. Many cast there judgement from afar. An example would be a metric fan from america that has been posting on another board telling me how metric britain is! He was explaining that we use a 500g pound and that we don't use pints etc etc. Sometimes you appear to post nonsense about britain being metric possibly in the hope that a foreigner reading this nonsense might actually believe you. Maybe you are trying to convey a message to the US posters that "the UK is fully metric now, may as well give up and go metric yourself"? Who knows in the bizzare word of the metric-extremist.


"Thus, someone asking for a pound is told (or at least, should be): 'I cannot sell you a pound, but I can sell you 454g, which I will price at the labelled unit amount'."

ROTLF! Pop to tescos for the ultimate in "metric hangover" cure.
Can you imagine that response from a tubby butcher when asking (as over 90% do) for a pound of mince! LOL LOL!

This stuff is classic, lads, keep it up!

Let's get a few things clear:

1. (on inch definition) "I am actually starting to believe that you really think this way! Initially I thought it was a wind-up attempt, but you really think this don't you?"

What exactly is the problem? When the inch has been marginalised, it will be increasingly understood as 25mm. This will be known as the 'new inch'. We will then have some extremists who insist on using the 'old inch' as this was what God desired in consenting to the 1824 Act.

We saw the same thing happen with the 'new franc' in France, where some insisted on pricing things in the old version, where 100 old francs = 1 new franc.

A clearer example is that of UK decimalisation, where some old people retained terminology such as 'this cost two shillings' when it was actually 10p. What I am now saying is that a similar process will evolve when knowledge about what historically constituted an inch, for example, will have abated and its definition will be held in the mind by reference to the metre. This is far more likely to be '25mm' than '25.4mm', and thus the inch, devoid of official definition, will evolve.

Yes, this is my opinion. I am being forward thinking in predicting what I believe will eventually happen to the inch, as opposed to your just saying that 'everything will stay as it is and metric will never become popular'. Please respect my opinion as I respect yours!

2. (on British citizenship) "Not so - all I am saying is that you are totally delusional from some of your stuff and a walk down a busy street in Britain will sort this out. Sometimes you appear to post nonsense about britain being metric possibly in the hope that a foreigner reading this nonsense might actually believe you."

You also give this 'street' or 'walking' analogy a lot. The conversations that I hear in public rarely involve units of measurement being spontaneously spouted. A typical dialogue would not be, "Are we going to Woolworths next, which is four fifths of a furlong over there?'.

As a matter of fact I like to keep a sense of realism in my posts. I have never once said 'Britain is metric' or anything of the sort. It is quite clear that this is far from the truth. What I disagree with is the notion that the British public are so firmly wedded to the imperial system that they could never give it up, and that the metric system is either 'not used' by Britons or that they 'do not understand it'. This is propaganda which is supported by the UKIP/BWMA/Tabloid press alliance as part of some sort of false patriotism which is aimed at stopping evil foreigners dispensing with the British way of life because we have reached such a stage that the retention of a few units of measurement is all we have left to identify ourselves. This is not some sort of grand conflict with 'Europe', and we should be sensible enough to recognise that.

3. (on unit pricing) "ROTLF! Pop to tescos for the ultimate in "metric hangover" cure. Can you imagine that response from a tubby butcher when asking (as over 90% do) for a pound of mince! LOL LOL!"

Of course I am not suggesting that this actually happens, I am describing the legal theory of the point of sale as I have had problems understanding it myself in the past. Hence this 'should be' said in order to describe what is legally happening but in practice it is omitted.

My point is that the contract between customer and retailer (as indeed there is one) is to sell an agreed amount at the stated price. The stated price must by law be expressed as £/kg. The agreed amount can therefore only be in kg. The customer may ask for 'a pound of X', and the retailer will in truth probably say nothing further other than quote the price. This does not change the fact that the retailer observes the scale at 454g, and eventually will have no choice but to do so. Thus the sale is 454g, and the price is based on a unit price in £/kg. The contract is to sell 454g of X at £Y/kg, at a price of £0.454Y. Whatever language may have been used in the transaction is immaterial.

The point of my earlier post was not to question the reality of the dialogue in many cases, but to illustrate the fact that the pound is undefined for unit trade and that the sale contract is conducted with reference to kilograms.

PS In the event of a dispute, amounts would be measured against a standard of 454g, and not against the non-existant standard of 1lb.

"But if supplementary unit lies outside the retail transaction, and is simply addititional information provided at the private choice of the retailer, what is it that the government banning in 2010?"

This is a difficult question. I do not personally see how the current arrangements for concluding the use of supplementary indications will result in their prohibition by simply saying 'supplementary indications shall be allowed until 31 December 2009'.

It would be necessary in my view for there to be a new provision providing that 'from 1 January 2010, supplementary indications shall be banned'. There is no basis in UK law for a non-permitted act to be criminal unless it is with reference to the actions of the state.

As far as where supplementary indications lie, it matters not that they are simply additional information. As I said above, the transaction is calculated with reference to the kilogram, whatever people might say or do, and a supplementary indication is additional to the transaction. This is not to stop the law providing that such indications shall not be used, although as some have said this may raise an issue under Article 10 of the Convention.

<<<As a matter of fact I like to keep a sense of realism in my posts.>>>

If only SteveH could do the same! I'm getting a bit bored with the old "take a walk down the street" argument. I don't remember anyone ever disputing the widespread use of imperial in Britain!

<<<What I disagree with is the notion that the British public are so firmly wedded to the imperial system that they could never give it up, and that the metric system is either 'not used' by Britons or that they 'do not understand it'. This is propaganda which is supported by the UKIP/BWMA/Tabloid press alliance as part of some sort of false patriotism which is aimed at stopping evil foreigners dispensing with the British way of life because we have reached such a stage that the retention of a few units of measurement is all we have left to identify ourselves. This is not some sort of grand conflict with 'Europe', and we should be sensible enough to recognise that.>>>

Well said. Thats the best post I've read on here - sums the whole thing up nicely in one paragraph

Thanks Andy.

"What I disagree with is the notion that the British public are so firmly wedded to the imperial system that they could never give it up, and that the metric system is either 'not used' by Britons or that they 'do not understand it'. This is propaganda which is supported by the UKIP/BWMA/Tabloid press alliance as part of some sort of false patriotism which is aimed at stopping evil foreigners dispensing with the British way of life because we have reached such a stage that the retention of a few units of measurement is all we have left to identify ourselves. This is not some sort of grand conflict with 'Europe', and we should be sensible enough to recognise that."

Hear, hear.

I just had to print this again. Well spoken indeed: Thank you, Ross!

I'd better clear up a few myths and misrepresentations here - I'll give it a bash.

"What exactly is the problem? When the inch has been marginalised, it will be increasingly understood as 25mm. This will be known as the 'new inch'. We will then have some extremists who insist on using the 'old inch' as this was what God desired in consenting to the 1824 Act."

With respect - the only extremism here is the stuff you are quoting! Did you know that Franco's view of the basque language was similar? It is offensive that you should want to remove/eradicate something that is recognisably British just because it doesn't fit in with the EU agenda/experimant. Something that will trouble you for your life is that your so call "metric inch" will never appear - since 25mm is NOT and inch. You may as well call it the "new banana".

"We saw the same thing happen with the 'new franc' in France, where some insisted on pricing things in the old version, where 100 old francs = 1 new franc"

We? I assume that you have french roots or are french - no problem with that (before you start). I didn't even know the french money changed.

I knew at this point that you'd go onto the old "decimalisation" route. I've often seen that as the metricists "last excuse". An equivalent on the imperial side is time (hence I never "go there"). Lets get this right - when decimalisation happened a new currency replaced an old one. It is obviuos that both could not co-exist. Now look at measures - imperial and metric have been used side by side since the 60's. DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE?

"You also give this 'street' or 'walking' analogy a lot. The conversations that I hear in public rarely involve units of measurement being spontaneously spouted. A typical dialogue would not be, "Are we going to Woolworths next, which is four fifths of a furlong over there?'."

No - but you will commonly hear "its about 200yds on the left". This appears to be proof (in my opinion) that you don't "pick up" its common use day2day.

"is either 'not used' by Britons or that they 'do not understand it'. This is propaganda which is supported by the UKIP/BWMA/Tabloid press "

Withouth being rude - that's a crock!
How on earth do Britons describe the size of their cars? Are you saying that those groups have convinced us that we don't know what "2.3litre" means? Lets turn an analogy (street) around. What is the most common measure used in second had "classifieds" car-ads after "miles"?
And as to "not understanding it" - well.....!

"false patriotism which is aimed at stopping evil foreigners dispensing with the British way of life because we have reached such a stage that the retention of a few units of measurement is all we have left to identify ourselves. This is not some sort of grand conflict with 'Europe',"

Ah! the old europe red-herring.
Please tell me...

ONCE AGAIN...

how totally ANTI-EUROPEAN I am for using the measurement system known as "Imperial"?

NOW who's being disrespectful?

As a final note on your food stuff.
Have you ever noticed how the price per pound is always "something".99 and the kilo price is stuck somewhere in the mire between this £ and the next?

Have you noticed the same when it comes to carpet per sq yard?

Finally (on this post) I will give a crips tenner (sterling) to all the daft metricphiles here on Jan 1 2010 if the shops up and down the land have stopped the dual labelling.

BTW - you're only a "daft metriphile" if you reacted to that with a "ooh ooh" and a hand raised aloft.

bit of humour there.

Steve

I think for the first time I agree with you about something! Making an inch 25mm is completely pointless and will never happen.

The only instances where I can see imperial terms being used to describe metric quantities are "pound" for 500g and "pint" for 600ml

"Pound" is used in many european countries as slang for 500g so the same may well happen here, and the word "pint" will always be used in pubs whatever the exact quantity it refers to

Andy - I think you know quite well that "europe" (the continent, whatever..) is a very different place to here!

They may have altered their "imperial systems" (I don't think they were ever formalised) to match metric.

It really wont happen here, OR the U.S.

I bring, as my evidence, the huge history that imperial has alongside metric in the UK and the relatively short "euro versions".

The crisp tenner has been locked in a vault in Paris ready to be kept by me after Jan 1st 2010, btw!

Already the americans have asked to view it

;)

So many things to consider.

"Did you know that Franco's view of the basque language was similar? It is offensive that you should want to remove/eradicate something that is recognisably British just because it doesn't fit in with the EU agenda/experimant."

I am not advocating the redefinition of the inch, I am simply saying that this is what I believe it will become in practice.

"your so call "metric inch" will never appear - since 25mm is NOT and inch."

Of course 25mm is not an inch. I am saying that it may be in the future.

"We? I assume that you have french roots or are french - no problem with that (before you start). I didn't even know the french money changed."

By 'we' I mean European citizens, of which I am one, as indeed are all British nationals. 'We' could also simply describe us as a group of human beings having experience of modern economies. The franc was redefined by de Gaulle's government as a result of rampant inflation.

"I knew at this point that you'd go onto the old "decimalisation" route. Lets get this right - when decimalisation happened a new currency replaced an old one."

Curious, as BWMA has consistently argued the reverse. My point in the comparison with LSD is that when something replaces something else (which is what I'm talking about here: the future and not the past), some will abandon the old system, others will religiously stick to it and many will adapt the old system as an aid to their understanding of the new one. Such people are not politically committed to the retention of the old system but are simply most familiar with it.

"Withouth being rude - that's a crock!"

Sorry, not getting the dialect here!

I know that there are many ways in which Britons use the metric system. It is the frequent contest of this fact by the imperial lobby which I do not like.

"Please tell me how totally ANTI-EUROPEAN I am for using the measurement system known as "Imperial"?

NOW who's being disrespectful?"

No-one, as I have not called you anti-European.

"Have you ever noticed how the price per pound is always "something".99 and the kilo price is stuck somewhere in the mire between this £ and the next?

Have you noticed the same when it comes to carpet per sq yard?"

I stress again that I was describing the legal theory in respect of the definition or otherwise of the pound in law. Further, I have been pleased at the changeover to the square metre which has been evident in the carpet industry in recent years. Yes, this is true before you try to deny it.

"Finally (on this post) I will give a crips tenner (sterling) to all the daft metricphiles here on Jan 1 2010 if the shops up and down the land have stopped the dual labelling."

Of course, it won't happen instantly but will instead take a few weeks or months for the changes to be made.

"BTW - you're only a "daft metriphile" if you reacted to that with a "ooh ooh" and a hand raised aloft."

I could lie, but unfortunately I won't be getting £10!

"I think for the first time I agree with you about something! Making an inch 25mm is completely pointless and will never happen."

I admit that the inch is different from the pound and the pint, in that those terms will continue to be used even after metrication has been finally completed. The 25mm inch will be an interim measure which will be used for understanding the two systems together, but the term 'inch' may not be retained as slang for 25mm.

"the word "pint" will always be used in pubs whatever the exact quantity it refers to"

Yes, a glass of beer will be a 'pint' for many decades to come, and this will be the best example of evolutionary measures.

"['Europe'] may have altered their "imperial systems" (I don't think they were ever formalised) to match metric.

It really wont happen here, OR the U.S."

The system will not be formally amended. What will happen is that the pint will eventually be expunged from the law, but the word 'pint' will be retained. We must then ask the question 'what constitutes a pint?'. Is it the previous legal definition or a new, commonly understood definition of (maybe) 575ml? That will be how pints are identified in the future.

"I bring, as my evidence, the huge history that imperial has alongside metric in the UK"

Of course, imperial units have been constantly evolved over the centuries, and were not standardised into their current form until 1824.

"The crisp tenner has been locked in a vault in Paris ready to be kept by me after Jan 1st 2010, btw!"

I look forward to the day it leaves the vault, although you may wish to consider that it may no longer be legal currency at that time...

"Of course 25mm is not an inch. I am saying that it may be in the future."

Why didn't they do this when they matched the metric system up to the imperial one to set the conversions?
Basically - "dream on".

"By 'we' I mean European citizens, of which I am one, as indeed are all British nationals"

If you *really* think so! I guess if you mean in the same way as "northern hemisphere" or "world" citizens then you may have a point...

"some will abandon the old system, others will religiously stick to it and many will adapt the old system as an aid to their understanding of the new one"

But most (I reckon almost 100%) will just continue like today, and tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow and... (you get the picture). Face it -you're still waiting for it to be "the old system" (grin).

"Sorry, not getting the dialect here!"

Apologies - its a "US / UK" thing.

"Further, I have been pleased at the changeover to the square metre which has been evident in the carpet industry in recent years"

A little downer for you:
1) They've done it because they were forced too
2) Look for this new phenomena: Go to a carpet store. You'll notice reals and reals of carpet by the sq yd and sq m. Now note something new!! To get around the law you can buy ready made squares/oblongs/L's - measured solely in? Want a clue? Look at the specification on the back of any estate agent house leaflet with regard to room sizes! {nice one).
Take a look if you don't believe me.

"Finally (on this post) I will give a crips tenner (sterling) to all the daft metricphiles here on Jan 1 2010 if the shops up and down the land have stopped the dual labelling.
Of course, it won't happen instantly but will instead take a few weeks or months for the changes to be made"

Yeah! Just like when Britain "went metric" in the late sixties!!! (luvvin it!)

"that those terms will continue to be used even after metrication has been finally completed"

ROTFL!!!!! How old are you????

"but the term 'inch' may not be retained as slang for 25mm"

...and the term "foot" will not be used in aeroplanes as planes will be banned in the year 2010!! RRROTFL!


"Is it the previous legal definition or a new, commonly understood definition of (maybe) 575ml? That will be how pints are identified in the future"

I still can't believe that you think this way! The government is going to get all pubs to go from 568ml to 575ml just so that it is different from "pint" and all us robots will stop saying pint!
Jeesh!

"and were not standardised into their current form until 1824"

And then came 1924

And then came 2024

Word of advice - give up.

"I look forward to the day it leaves the vault, although you may wish to consider that it may no longer be legal currency at that time"

I do not believe that the UK will ever adopt the US dollar - heck that's almost as bad as joining the euro!

Perhaps the US will join us to make a "super sterling"?

Sound very likely

About as likely as a 25mm inch!

SteveH wrote:

"I still can't believe that you think this way! The government is going to get all pubs to go from 568ml to 575ml just so that it is different from "pint" and all us robots will stop saying pint!
Jeesh!"

You don't seem to get it, do you? Nobody will even try to force Britons to abandon the use of the word "pint". A "pint" will continue to be for the foreseeable future "a glass of beer". However, what might very well change is its actual size - perhaps 575 ml, or even 600 ml.
Even from your point of view: what would be wrong with that? Isn't BWMA always complaining about downsizing? Well, here's an actual example of "up-sizing". I wish you look in drumming up the support of beer-drinkers against a new, larger, metric pint (sold for the old price...).

Yours ever!

Oh dear, what crap I have to put up with. This is almost as bad as the Paul Birch posts, although much more entertaining!

"Why didn't they do this when they matched the metric system up to the imperial one to set the conversions?
Basically - "dream on"."

The metric system is an original system, it is not based on imperial.

"If you *really* think so! I guess if you mean in the same way as "northern hemisphere" or "world" citizens then you may have a point..."

I mean our fellow human beings in a comparable economy had the experience of changing their currency. What is beyond doubt is that we, outside France, certainly 'saw' it and can learn from it.

"But most (I reckon almost 100%) will just continue like today, and tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow and... (you get the picture). Face it -you're still waiting for it to be "the old system" (grin)."

Exactly, you may finally be getting it. I am predicting what will happen in the future. It is very easy to condemn my predictions, but if nothing else they are original, as opposed to 'everything will stay the same'.

"Sorry, not getting the dialect here!
Apologies - its a "US / UK" thing."

Evidently not all of the UK.

"A little downer for you:
1) They've done it because they were forced too"

Tough, it's been done anyway.

"2) Look for this new phenomena: Go to a carpet store. You'll notice reals and reals of carpet by the sq yd and sq m. Now note something new!! To get around the law you can buy ready made squares/oblongs/L's - measured solely in? Want a clue? Look at the specification on the back of any estate agent house leaflet with regard to room sizes! {nice one)."

I know precisely what you mean, and the lack of regulation in this area in the UK is an infringement of Community law, which will be addressed very soon.

"Of course, it won't happen instantly but will instead take a few weeks or months for the changes to be made
Yeah! Just like when Britain "went metric" in the late sixties!!! (luvvin it!)"

In the 1960s, we did not implement a single system. These changes will eventually emerge, then you will be laughing on the other side of your face!

"that those terms will continue to be used even after metrication has been finally completed
ROTFL!!!!! How old are you????"

You don't believe that imperial terms will continue to be used after full metrication then? If so then I am pleased you have changed your mind.

"but the term 'inch' may not be retained as slang for 25mm
...and the term "foot" will not be used in aeroplanes as planes will be banned in the year 2010!! RRROTFL!"

I think you're starting to flip now.

"Is it the previous legal definition or a new, commonly understood definition of (maybe) 575ml? That will be how pints are identified in the future.
I still can't believe that you think this way! The government is going to get all pubs to go from 568ml to 575ml just so that it is different from "pint" and all us robots will stop saying pint!"

If you read it properly you would see that I argue entirely the opposite. The law will round off the amount to either 575ml or 600ml so that records can be more easily kept and understood. The word 'pint' will continue to be used because of its cultural significance. The actual size of the 'pint' will change, as it will no longer have a legal definition.

re: "(2) Look for this new phenomenon: Go to a carpet store. You'll notice reels and reels of carpet by the sq yd and sq m. Now note something new!! To get around the law you can buy ready made squares/oblongs/L's - measured solely in? Want a clue? Look at the specification on the back of any estate agent house leaflet with regard to room sizes! {nice one)."

I know precisely what you mean, and the lack of regulation in this area in the UK is an infringement of Community law, which will be addressed very soon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Will be addressed very soon." Good to know that someone is looking after our interests, with zero tolerance for the sq. yd. now in view, if this poster is correct!

I wonder how soon the following are going to be addressed: rising numbers of crimes of violence, increasing drug abuse, increasing illiteracy, overcrowding due to the housing shortage, deteriorating train services, exodus of good quality staff from education and health services, increasing numbers of accidents at work due to declining health and safety enforcement, shortage of N.H.S. dentists...

Probably not for a while given that those in power appear to have set their sights on the early elimination of the pint, pound, foot, mile, yard etc.

"Oh dear, what crap I have to put up with. This is almost as bad as the Paul Birch posts, although much more entertaining!"

Erm, I haven't heard from Mr. B for ages. As far as I can see his biggest argument was basically anti-statism - which I agree with.

>>>"Why didn't they do this when they matched the metric system up to the imperial one to set the conversions?
Basically - "dream on"."

The metric system is an original system, it is not based on imperial.<<<<

I did not say it was - I was saying that rather than make the pound 454 of your grammes why didn't they say "heck lets make it 450" or whatever when the two "came together" ?


"I mean our fellow human beings in a comparable economy had the experience of changing their currency. "

1) Our ecnomy is closer to the US one (we are on the same cycle)
2) We have not changed are currency

>>"But most (I reckon almost 100%) will just continue like today, and tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow and... (you get the picture). Face it -you're still waiting for it to be "the old system" (grin)."

Exactly, you may finally be getting it. I am predicting what will happen in the future. It is very easy to condemn my predictions, but if nothing else they are original, as opposed to 'everything will stay the same'.<<

It is tiring to live your life on hypotheticals - don't you agree?

>>>"Sorry, not getting the dialect here!
Apologies - its a "US / UK" thing."

Evidently not all of the UK.<<

Let me get this right - you haven't heard anyone say "that's a crock"? (short for "that's a crock of sh**")?

>>"A little downer for you:
1) They've done it because they were forced too"

Tough, it's been done anyway.<<

Aside from humour, this attitude is what scares me about you lot.

>>I know precisely what you mean, and the lack of regulation in this area in the UK is an infringement of Community law, which will be addressed very soon.<<<

So, lets say it happens the way you threaten and mr and mrs UK go into the carpet store with a big smile and see their cuts have gone then collectively say "awwwww" - you shall be standing in the carpark rubbing your hands and laughing?

Nice chap!

^^ that was irony btw - a very British thing ^^

"In the 1960s, we did not implement a single system. These changes will eventually emerge, then you will be laughing on the other side of your face!"

I would not hold your breath.
Actually - go ahead!

"You don't believe that imperial terms will continue to be used after full metrication then? If so then I am pleased you have changed your mind."

The issue here is the bit that says "full metrication"!


<<...and the term "foot" will not be used in aeroplanes as planes will be banned in the year 2010!! RRROTFL!"

I think you're starting to flip now.>>

Erm - what height do planes fly at when "full metrication" happens?
And with over 1000 planes in the sky at any one moment how will you do the switchover?
This is why I see the metric-extremists as a joke - slightly irritating, highly amusing at times but nevertheless a joke.


<<If you read it properly you would see that I argue entirely the opposite. The law will round off the amount to either 575ml or 600ml so that records can be more easily kept and understood. The word 'pint' will continue to be used because of its cultural significance. The actual size of the 'pint' will change, as it will no longer have a legal definition.>>

You do not understand - a pint is a pint. you are refering to the metric equivalent of a pint and the supremacy of a measuring system to bolster your claim - ie the pint only exists BECAUSE of the ml! think carefully.
The golf courses in France are in metres which is just over a yard. The metres will be phased out as people get used to the international golf measure of yards. They will still call it metres but infact the markings will be in yards.
Think HARD to what I mean before saying that I've really flipped (or whatever)

<<<You do not understand - a pint is a pint. you are refering to the metric equivalent of a pint and the supremacy of a measuring system to bolster your claim - ie the pint only exists BECAUSE of the ml! think carefully. >>>

But the point is, why should anyone care exactly what "a pint" is? The only thing that matters in terms of cultural value is the word "pint"

as long as the size remains roughly as it is, and everyone knows what measure they are getting, and the price decreases if the measure is downsized, what is the problem?

"But the point is, why should anyone care exactly what "a pint" is? The only thing that matters in terms of cultural value is the word "pint""

Who cares what a "ml" is on that level? - so lets get the bottled beers labelled up in pints then!

Actually - the cans increasingly are!

Tony - sorry to have jumped over your point there, which was quite poignant - I mean, think about it, the state is putting a lot of effort in making people stop saying "foot" or "inch" while more important things are put in second place. Voilent crime? Whassat then? Lets nab a meat trader for allowing his customers to say "pound".

When you look at it realistically at that level it really shows how sick things are.
How did we let it get this way?
If I'd mentioned the above 10 yrs ago (ie prophesising that it would happen) I would have been branded a dangerous scaremongerer and a loony europe-hater willing to spread lies to generate xenophobia.

Actually - look at this lot who post here and their view of the nasty old media saying "mile", "fahrenheit", "foot" etc.

It leaves a bad taste.

Actually I must check if I'm "permitted" to say what just said - it might be against "community rules" (think "10 years time" here!)

""Will be addressed very soon." Good to know that someone is looking after our interests, with zero tolerance for the sq. yd. now in view, if this poster is correct!"

Glad to be of service!

"I wonder how soon [important things] are going to be addressed. Probably not for a while given that those in power appear to have set their sights on the early elimination of the pint, pound, foot, mile, yard etc."

"Tony - sorry to have jumped over your point there, which was quite poignant - I mean, think about it, the state is putting a lot of effort in making people stop saying "foot" or "inch" while more important things are put in second place."

It is simply not the case that the Government is investing huge resources in banning the use of imperial measures. This has been going for decades, and we have not achieved great amounts. Metrication is, in fact, very low indeed on the list of Government priorities.

"Erm, I haven't heard from Mr. B for ages. As far as I can see his biggest argument was basically anti-statism - which I agree with."

What annoyed me about Mr B was his inability to accept people debate. The conversation went something like:

PB: Abolishing the monarchy would be illegal without the unanimous consent of the UK.
Me: No, it could be done by Parliament.
PB: You are wrong. How dare you not accept my opinion?!

"I did not say [metric is based on imperial] - I was saying that rather than make the pound 454 of your grammes why didn't they say "heck lets make it 450" or whatever when the two "came together" ?

The independent defintion of the kilogram landed the pound as equivalent to 454g. To 'make it 450g' would mean either basing metric on imperial or modifying the pound. There may have been long term benefits in redefining the pound officially, but such a major definition would be unwise and would lead to much uncertainty. My point is that, when metric becomes the primary system, the pound will be retained as a slang term for 500g. There will never be an official redefinition.

"1) Our ecnomy is closer to the US one (we are on the same cycle)
2) We have not changed are currency"

I was describing a modern, market based economy, which all present members of the Community have. I did not say that we had changed our currency, I said that our colleagues had experienced their own change of currency.

"It is tiring to live your life on hypotheticals - don't you agree?"

Yes, but pro-metrics get used to it after a while!

"Let me get this right - you haven't heard anyone say "that's a crock"? (short for "that's a crock of sh**")?"

No, I'm afraid I have never come into contact with such vulgarities. Maybe I lose a point on your 'Britishness test'.

"Aside from humour, this attitude is what scares me about you lot."

I have been told many times in the past to accept things simply because someone else has decided it. Sometimes this is justified, sometimes it isn't. We must all make up our own minds about which applies.

"So, lets say it happens the way you threaten and mr and mrs UK go into the carpet store with a big smile and see their cuts have gone then collectively say "awwwww" - you shall be standing in the carpark rubbing your hands and laughing?"

Their cuts will be there, simply described in a uniform way in all carpet stores. The units that are used will depend on those which are prescribed.

"Nice chap!"

Thanks, and you.

"that was irony btw - a very British thing"

Being British, I was aware of that.

"I would not hold your breath.
Actually - go ahead!"

Ho hum.

"The issue here is the bit that says "full metrication"!"

I am prepared to be (very) patient about these matters!

"Erm - what height do planes fly at when "full metrication" happens?"

The same height as before. Do I win a prize?

"You do not understand - a pint is a pint. you are refering to the metric equivalent of a pint and the supremacy of a measuring system to bolster your claim - ie the pint only exists BECAUSE of the ml! think carefully."

I am thinking carefully. At the moment, the pint exists in its own right, although it is defined by reference to the metre which is derived from the speed of light. If and when the pint is removed from legislation, then the quantity may or may not be rounded off to make calculations easier. In official and theoretical terms, the pint would not exist. In practice, it would only exist in the minds and words of members of the public. The unwritten definition of the pint would then largely depend on what prescription was used for the sale of beer, which I suppose would be more likely to be 575ml or 600ml than it would be to remain at 568ml.

"The golf courses in France are in metres which is just over a yard. The metres will be phased out as people get used to the international golf measure of yards. They will still call it metres but infact the markings will be in yards."

They will probably say something like '200 yards, that's about 200 metres', albeit in French. The conclusion of my argument is that the metre would be redefined in their minds as 0.9144m. However, this will not happen because the metre is used throughout France for just about all purposes. In the UK, the pint is only used for milk, beer and cider, both in official and so-called 'real' terms. As these are its last usages, there would be no conflict between different definitions of the pint once milk has been metricated.

"Think HARD to what I mean before saying that I've really flipped (or whatever)"

I said you were starting to flip because you were suggesting that aircraft would be banned by 2010 (albeit in jocular fashion).

"But the point is, why should anyone care exactly what "a pint" is? The only thing that matters in terms of cultural value is the word "pint""

Exactly, we don't need to know what a pint is because it is not used outside beer, cider and milk. After 'full metrication', the unwritten definition of the pint can move freely.

"Who cares what a "ml" is on that level?"

We do care what the ml is because it is more widely used, and indeed in this scenario it would have a legal definition whereas the pint would not.

" - so lets get the bottled beers labelled up in pints then! Actually - the cans increasingly are!"

The point here is that this is not about what the label says, it is about parlance and understanding. If the label '575/600ml' does not directly contradict the idea that the amount is 1 pint, and there is no official definition of the pint, why cannot the amount be 1 pint if it looks roughly like it?

"Voilent crime? Whassat then?"

I have no idea.

<<
After 'full metrication', the unwritten definition of the pint can move freely.
>>

Will it be able to vary from store to store?

Until its new definition has been established, if you ask for a pint of something, will the shopkeeper be free to give you as much/little as he wants, as long as it is "roughly" what the pint used to be defined as?

"PB: Abolishing the monarchy would be illegal without the unanimous consent of the UK.
Me: No, it could be done by Parliament.
PB: You are wrong. How dare you not accept my opinion?!
"
Are you SURE he said that last line?
Hmmm, I suspect you are anti-monarchy from this tet-a-tete - am i right? It would make sense (ref: your other views) - but I'm not getting that "tar" brush out yet!

""It is tiring to live your life on hypotheticals - don't you agree?"

Yes, but pro-metrics get used to it after a while!"

Nice admition!

P.S. What is longer? A "while" or a "piece of string"?

"No, I'm afraid I have never come into contact with such vulgarities. Maybe I lose a point on your 'Britishness test'"

I assume from this that you find the word "sh**" vulgar - I was unaware that you never ever swear, sorry.

"Their cuts will be there, simply described in a uniform way in all carpet stores. The units that are used will depend on those which are prescribed."

In other words "sod the people, sod what they want, I know best!" - and exactly *what* didn't you like about Mr Birch?

<<<"Erm - what height do planes fly at when "full metrication" happens?"

The same height as before. Do I win a prize?>>>

So after "full metrication" there will be a measure called "the foot" based on and measuring exactly, er, "one foot"?

"I am thinking carefully. At the moment, the pint exists in its own right, although it is defined by reference to the metre which is derived from the speed of light. If and when the pint is removed from legislation, then the quantity may or may not be rounded off to make calculations easier. In official and theoretical terms, the pint would not exist. In practice, it would only exist in the minds and words of members of the public. The unwritten definition of the pint would then largely depend on what prescription was used for the sale of beer, which I suppose would be more likely to be 575ml or 600ml than it would be to remain at 568ml"

I assume you've already sold all your clothes and replaced them with grey ones of exactly the same design in readiness to celibrate that day?

"They will probably say something like '200 yards, that's about 200 metres', albeit in French. The conclusion of my argument is that the metre would be redefined in their minds as 0.9144m. However, this will not happen because the metre is used throughout France for just about all purposes. In the UK, the pint is only used for milk, beer and cider, both in official and so-called 'real' terms. As these are its last usages, there would be no conflict between different definitions of the pint once milk has been metricated"

1) I thought that French courses would be in metres - nice to hear that they are actually in yards!
2) How does "metricated milk" taste like? Sour, I assume - in which case no=one will buy it. Plus I suspect that Tesco would always be renegade at this in the same way as PACKED food is in imperial again! (did you know that?)

"Exactly, we don't need to know what a pint is because it is not used outside beer, cider and milk. After 'full metrication', the unwritten definition of the pint can move freely"

AT LAST! you put quotes around full metrication!
Once UKIP 'win the general election' I will celebrate with a pint.
LOL

"We do care what the ml is because it is more widely used, and indeed in this scenario it would have a legal definition whereas the pint would not"

Ask those around you if they care about the "ml" - then ask "who fancies a pint" !

"Are you SURE [PB] said that last line?"

None of those lines are direct quotes, but they are certainly very close. PB certainly called me a liar for having a different opinion to his.

"Hmmm, I suspect you are anti-monarchy from this tet-a-tete - am i right?"

Certainly not.

"I assume from this that you find the word "sh**" vulgar - I was unaware that you never ever swear, sorry."

I did not say this, I have simply not heard that particular usage. I note that you are starring 'the word' out.

"In other words "sod the people, sod what they want, I know best!""

That is the essence of weights and measures law.

"I assume you've already sold all your clothes and replaced them with grey ones of exactly the same design in readiness to celibrate that day?"

No.

"1) I thought that French courses would be in metres - nice to hear that they are actually in yards!"

I was talking about your proposed situation when, in the future, metres may be replaced by yards.

"2) How does "metricated milk" taste like? Sour, I assume - in which case no=one will buy it."

Strangely enough, exactly the same. You are over-confident that the public will refuse to buy milk which has the word 'litre' on it.

"Plus I suspect that Tesco would always be renegade at this in the same way as PACKED food is in imperial again! (did you know that?)"

If so then Tesco are acting *illegally*. Some claim that the actions of Tesco were simply an advertising tactic to make themselves more popular.

"AT LAST! you put quotes around full metrication!"

I notice you don't. It will happen, however long it takes. It does however depend on what 'full' means.

"Once UKIP 'win the general election' I will celebrate with a pint."

If you are a UKIP supporter then a lot falls into place.

The third question would be 'how many fluid ounces to the pint?'.

<<< None of those lines are direct quotes, but they are certainly very close. PB certainly called me a liar for having a different opinion to his.>>>

Aaaah! you "metricated" was was true!


"I did not say this, I have simply not heard that particular usage. I note that you are starring 'the word' out."

I got told off by the moderators for saying "piss" once.

Oops.

<<<"In other words "sod the people, sod what they want, I know best!""

That is the essence of weights and measures law.>>>

Remarkably close to direct democracy too isn't it ?(nodding head, wide open eyes)


<<<"2) How does "metricated milk" taste like? Sour, I assume - in which case no=one will buy it."

Strangely enough, exactly the same. You are over-confident that the public will refuse to buy milk which has the word 'litre' on it.>>>

It already does - one point something something something for a pint.

<<"Plus I suspect that Tesco would always be renegade at this in the same way as PACKED food is in imperial again! (did you know that?)"

If so then Tesco are acting *illegally*. Some claim that the actions of Tesco were simply an advertising tactic to make themselves more popular.>>

More popular than number one? How do you do that?
Ok, here's a challenge - go to tesco, pick up their bacon that's pre-packed - check out the bit that says 8.5 oz.
Note that there are no australians present in the pack.


<<<"Once UKIP 'win the general election' I will celebrate with a pint."

If you are a UKIP supporter then a lot falls into place.>>>

It was a joke based on using quotes to show non-happening things, if you get my drift.
I'm actually depressed by the state of politics in the UK. The way I vote comes right down to the person now, rather than the party.

<<The third question would be 'how many fluid ounces to the pint?'.>>

There are 20floz in the UK pint, in the US it is 16floz.

"Aaaah! you "metricated" was was true!"

?

"You are over-confident that the public will refuse to buy milk which has the word 'litre' on it.
It already does - one point something something something for a pint."

All supermarket milk has the word 'litre' on it.

"More popular than number one? How do you do that?"

Greater profit and market share, increasing the majority over the next contender.

Ok, here's a challenge - go to tesco, pick up their bacon that's pre-packed - check out the bit that says 8.5 oz.
Note that there are no australians present in the pack.

"I'm actually depressed by the state of politics in the UK. The way I vote comes right down to the person now, rather than the party."

IMO this should always be a very important consideration for voters. There are certainly Conservatives I would vote for if the alternative was a pure Blairite. The dominance of party is disenfranchising.

"There are 20floz in the UK pint, in the US it is 16floz."

At least we know that.

"was was " should have read "what was"