I mentioned the following in the previous thread, but since it hasn't received any comment, I'd like to ask it again. BWMA writes in its message to America concerning metrication:

"The archetype kilogram is stored in a vault near Paris - and the US requires permission from the French government to examine it. Thomas Jefferson said: "If other nations adopt this unit, they must take the word of the French mathematicians for its length?So there is an end to it!"

This is, as has been pointed out, just not true. The French government has nothing to do with the International Bureau of Weights and Measures - rather, the Bureau is an organisation comparable to the UN, with the French just being the host country (much the same way as the USA are to the UN). Members wishing to access it for calibrating or indeed any purpose do so under diplomatic privilege. Moreover, the US has its very own copy of the "arch-kilogram", so normally there should be no need to go to Paris to have a look.
Why does BWMA spread such false stories? Does the end justify the means? Or does it see no difference between the French and an international (or any international) body - they're all kind of foreign anyway?

Looking forward to your answer,

Andrew

This particular writer has no personal knowledge on the subject. Our information is that permission must be sought from the French government. Yes, the US has a copy, but only the original is a "true" kilogram.

I'd really like to know where you got your information from.

It is true that I do not have any *personal* knowledge since I never felt the need to calibrate my kitchen weighing equipment in Paris. However, I have done my homework after another writer has explained the procedures under the Metre Convention in the last thread - and as far as I can see from published sources on the internet (most importantly, www.bipm.fr), the International Bureau of Weights and Measures is a completely self-regulating body. The French cannot deny access to it, except in cases of clear and present danger (for instance, to terrorists etc. - again, similar procedure to the one in New York).

So I think BWMA still owes the forum a convincing answer - or a more precise hint where it got its information from. I would appreciate if BWMA could do so without putting in doubt the credentials of those asking questions. I will retract my accusation of "false information" with apologies as soon as this will have been done.

The BWMA relies on false information to drum up support. Although people are naturally resistant to any change, metrication is only as unpopular as it is because of false information.

"www.bipm.fr"

That's a french website isn't it?
And official.

I find it funny when those on the minority/losing side pick the most tiny of subtlety when it comes to "facts" to try to win the argument.

Mind you, I suppose I did it myself once (re: the metre changing in length in the 80's!) However, I've got nothing to prove!

It's all a bit of fun though

Steve,

Try visiting

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/asp/hp.asp?LNG=fr

Even though it has a ".uk" in its website address, I can assure you that it is not a British site!

no, but that's cos it's about the French emmbasy in the UK!

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/asp/hp.asp?LNG=en

SteveH wrote:
""www.bipm.fr"

That's a french website isn't it?
And official."

Well observed. But that doesn't make it a "French official" website - there's quite a difference between this and an "official website in France."

" I find it funny when those on the minority/losing side pick the most tiny of subtlety when it comes to "facts" to try to win the argument."

Indeed.

I'm still waiting for a serious answer, though. Or is this it?

BWMA: "This particular writer has no personal knowledge on the subject."

Neither does the BWMA, because what they tell is a black lie.

BWMA: "Our information is that permission must be sought from the French government."

Your information is wrong, totally wrong.
I sent an email to the BIPM (in French) and look what they wrote back:

"Merci de votre interet.

Le Bureau international des poids et mesures (BIPM) est un organisme international, pas un institut francais. Il travaille sous l'autorité de la Convention du Metre, qui est un traité diplomatique conclu entre (actuellement) 51 nations.
Il a été créé par la Convention du Mètre et son entretien est assuré à frais communs par les États membres de la Convention. Il fonctionne sous la surveillance exclusive du Comité international des poids et mesures (CIPM), lui-même sous l'autorité de la Conférence générale des poids et mesures (CGPM).

Une demande d'etalonnage d'un prototype national peut etre adressee au BIPM par le laboratoire national de metrologie qui represent le gouvernement de l'Etat membre concerne. Ces etalonnages sont effectuees par rapport aux étalons d'usage courant au BIPM, qui sont traceables au prototype international.

Les comparaisons avec le prototype international sont très rares et elles requièrent l'autorité du CIPM. Il y en a eu trois depuis 1875.

Le BIPM fabrique (pour les Etats membres) les copies officielles exactes du kilogramme pour servir de prototypes nationaux. Ceux-ci sont traceables au kilogramme international. Dans chaque pays les kilogrammes etalons doivent etre traceable au prototype national et donc au prototype international.

J'espere que ces informations vous aident. Veuillez contacter votre laboratoire national de metrologie si vous avez besoin de renseignements supplementaires.

Bonne journee,

Janet Miles"


I’ll translate some interesting extracts for the BWMA:

"The Bureau international des poids et mesures (BIPM) is an international organisation, NOT a French one. It works under the authority of the Convention of the Metre, a diplomatic treaty between fifty-one nations."

"It is funded by the member states of the Convention."

"It is under the EXCLUSIVE supervision of the International Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM), supervised itself by the General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM)."

"If states want to compare their copy of the kilogramme with one of the copies that are intended for frequent use, a request should be addressed to the BIPM by the National Measurement Laboratory of the member state in question, which represents the Government of that particular state."

"Comparisons with the ORIGINAL international prototype are extremely rare and require the approval of the CIPM. This has happened only three times since 1875."

"The BIPM makes for every member state offical and exact copies of the kilogramme, which serve as national prototypes."

Skip the translation, Connie, I worked it out for myself!

What a good little europeaner I am!

Conrad: Thank you for your research - interesting stuff!

And the forum STILL waits for a serious answer.....

And then there was... silence...

SteveH wrote

<<
"www.bipm.fr"

That's a french website isn't it?
And official.
>>


Steve, I think that they heard you. Try visiting www.bipm.org

...and to imagine - the 'bippem' took notice of one little welshlander on a pro-imperial site!

[blush]

(for non-UK'ers here, ie almost all by the looks of things, look up "irony")

For the non-uk folk here please note - that last post was not an example of irony!

Let me take a humble shot at answering this question:
The message BWMA was trying to get across when it made this statement about the kilogram was that the metric system originated in France, was designed by Frenchmen, and is still administered in France. (Whether by the French or an international organization is just a techincal difference.) From a cultural perspective (assuming that you agree that weights and measures are a part of culture), the US would be losing part of its heritage by adopting the metric system. This is an emotional argument more than a practical one, but nevertheless could be quite effective.

I'm sure that technically, any country could inspect the standard kilogram without French consent, but I don't see why they wouldn't give consent, and I don't think it would be very wise to go in against their wishes even if it were legal. General standards of decency would require their permission. Also, it would be stupid to provoke their anger for such a silly matter.

"For the non-uk folk here please note - that last post was not an example of irony!"

FANTASTIC! you missed the second piece of irony in that post!

nice!

Or perhaps you missed the irony in..........

Oh, never mind

The point was well demonstrated in your post

Thanks

SteveH wrote:

"...and to imagine - the 'bippem' took notice of one little welshlander on a pro-imperial site!

[blush]

(for non-UK'ers here, ie almost all by the looks of things, look up "irony")
 
"For the non-uk folk here please note - that last post was not an example of irony!"

FANTASTIC! you missed the second piece of irony in that post!

nice!"

That's very convenient, isn't it, Steve? Whenever you write something embarrassing or blatantly untrue, to dismiss it, once having been refuted, as "irony", and blame your opponents for failing to see it? Thus, you'll never have to eat your words and are at the same time able to brandish your opponents as "non-uk folks" who persistently fail to spot the subtle points in your carefully-written statements?

Does it occur to you sometimes that to cling to such a strategy isn't easily reconcilable with real debate? Never mind the fact that persistently calling everybody who happens to disagree with you "non-uk folks" still seems to be your favourite argument?

And I'm STILL waiting for a serious answer from BWMA. I won't go away.

To , er , "Welshlander" - Thanks

To Andrew:

"That's very convenient, isn't it, Steve? Whenever you write something embarrassing or blatantly untrue, to dismiss it, once having been refuted, as "irony", and blame your opponents for failing to see it? Thus, you'll never have to eat your words and are at the same time able to brandish your opponents as "non-uk folks" who persistently fail to spot the subtle points in your carefully-written statements?"

Get dictionary
Look up "irony"
I really think you are missing the point on my gentle ribbing.
I was - erm - "Joking"?
Yes?

Oh never mind...

"Does it occur to you sometimes that to cling to such a strategy isn't easily reconcilable with real debate? Never mind the fact that persistently calling everybody who happens to disagree with you "non-uk folks" still seems to be your favourite argument?"

Are you from the UK? (think hard now!)

"And I'm STILL waiting for a serious answer from BWMA."

I expect they can't sleep at night.

"I won't go away."

I totally agree with you! (SteveH makes mosquito type noise)

I don't think you quite got it - the benefits of a very thick skin I suppose

Read this:

"Get dictionary
Look up "irony"
I really think you are missing the point on my gentle ribbing"

SteveH wrote:

"I totally agree with you! (SteveH makes mosquito type noise)"

That explains why his arguments suck.

(Should I explain to you which word you'd have to look up here, Steveh?)

As for the "non-uk folk" argument AGAIN - well, it sounds all too familiar to me. Favourite one of any right-wing organisation around the world (un-American, un-Deutsh, non Italiano etc. etc. etc.: BOOOOORING! And immortal, as it seems. An intellectual zombie.). In short: I won't play that game.

To ,er, Welshlander: Thanks again for your continuing support

Andrew:
"That explains why his arguments suck"
Nice one! That made me larf.

"Favourite" eh? The English spelling eh? - 10/10!

Oh, and look up "enthalpy"

The skin that is

How's the bike?

I think the word "skinned" may have been the wrong one

How's your bike? (Whatever that means. It must be some local bit of irony known only to those friends of the previous poster. A select band indeed!)

A Brit was preparing the BBQ when it started to rain.
The american approached him and the Brit looked at him and said "nice weather".
Perplexed and confused the american did some research and found out that this was called "irony" - he found it both facinating and endearing, perhaps something he could adopt.

The next day he accidentally smashed his car into another one. they both got out of their cars and the american strolled up to the other and said "nice weather"

Reading certain comments by a known contributor, I can't help thinking of "Edward" from the "League of Gentlemen".

This is a local shop (with local measures) for local people!

How's your bike?

And the kids?

Why do you want to know about andrews bike, and kids?

Andrew - never got into that L.O.G. stuff.

But "Bo selecta"? well....

Thick and skinned - one word seems to be redundant.

He's just not with it is he?

Well Steve how's your bike?

And your kids (are they yours?)?

"Thick and skinned - one word seems to be redundant."

Hmmm, bit racist are we?

"He's just not with it is he?"

Don't let me get between you and your other half!

"Well Steve how's your bike?"

She's fine

"And your kids (are they yours?)?"

Yup, all 23 of them - there's cleatus, jack, fonella, trixie, jeremiah - i forget the rest

Sorry, you've lost us all there

Unless you think that I am a German (Point. The war finished some time ago)

A thought occurs.....

Who was it who said that those who accuse others of being racist are usually covering up their own racism (I paraphrase slightly)?

Welshlander = SteveH

Conrad's email from the BIPM is helpful in resolving this dispute. It may be the case BWMA has made an error. In the interests of accuracy, I shall remove the offending sentence until such point as we can substantiate it conclusively. Thank you for pointing this out.

You're welcome. :-)

Although I am Welsh, I am not the person posting as "Welshlander" thus....


SteveH <> Welshlander

(or if you are more of an IBM type person...
SteveH != Welshlander)

P.S. Thanks, at least, for "nibbling" the bait!

Oh, and thanks for asking - Cardiff was kicking on the weekend!

Yes it's unfortunaely rather easy to get a good kicking in Cardiff so I've heard

Actually - no - Cardiff is a great place - especially in the evening.
There's a great buzz and a real good atmosphere.
Radio1 were there over the weekend (along with 20,000 ticket winners!)
It was rather - how can I say - "large"?

I admire the constructive approach of BWMA.

No - it was the BBC.
Radio One is part of the BBC

I know!

Steve said:

Mind you, I suppose I did it myself once (re: the metre changing in length in the 80's!) However, I've got nothing to prove!

Truth:

Steve is showing ignorance when he writes crap like this. The metre has never changed length. What has changed, and I'm sure this is beyond Steve's comprehension, is the definition of the metre.

The evolution of the changes in the definition can be found at: http://www1.bipm.org/en/si/history-si/evolution_metre.html

Each new definition increases the accuracy of determining the length standard and reduces the uncertainties. It does not change the actual length.

However, the imperial length units have changed length much throughout history, the last time being in 1960. It was then that the inch was officially changed to 0.0254 m. Before that it varied between the US, Canada and the UK. The difference is significant enough that the US had to retain the old foot definition in surveying. Thus, the foot used in surveying is different then the one in common use.

If the metre had changed length according to Steve, the the inch and all imperial units based on the metre also changed.

If the inch and other imperial units weren't tied to the metre, the inch would still be defined by barley corns.

"If the metre had changed length according to Steve, the the inch and all imperial units based on the metre also changed"

Too right! When the metre changed I noticed that my journey home did not alter even a fraction of a "metric is better than imperial ya ya ya" inch - yet the 100% imperial signs said the same and were in the same places!

Truly shocking state of affairs!

Steve, we are talking about measurements to an accuracy that is only required in certain scientific laboratories. Using the techniques defined by the BIPM, a metre rod can be developed in the United Kingdon that is within 1 part in 100,000,000 of a similar metre rod developed at the BIPM headquarters. On a journey from London to Wales (about 300km, depending on where in Wales you are going), that represents an accuracy of about 3mm.

(You could not work that out without the use of a calculator using Imperial measure)!

"(You could not work that out without the use of a calculator using Imperial measure)!"

Well I could, and I your posts demonstrate that you have sufficient mathematical skills to do the same Martin. ;)

I'll concede that with the declining standards in mental arithmetic there are probably plenty of people who couldn't though.

I *know* how many miles it is to Wales - I've been there often enough!

I've not worked out what it is in km though - there's really no need. I've explained the distance to friends from europe in miles and they don't have any problems with it.