Metric speed changeover accelerates as deadline is set for December

Irish Independent
Thursday 2004-09-02


A GOVERNMENT task force yesterday set December 1 as the target date for the 10 M� metric speed signs switchover - but the plan immediately ran into trouble.

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co Council has told Transport Minister Seamus Brennan and the National Roads Authority (NRA) it will not increase the controversial 40 mph (65 km/h) speed limit on the Stillorgan dual-carriageway at RTE. This is because the council has serious safety concerns about such a move and wants to keep the existing limit, it wsa learned yesterday. The minister has the power to override the council and raise the limit, despite the safety concerns.

Local authorities will erect 58 000 speed limit signs in kilometres per hour and take down existing signs in miles per hour during a three-day period up to 2004-12-01, the Task Force on Metrication decided.

The exercise may some cause confusion for motorists, who face being caught for speeding as a result of the changeover. This is because both sets of signs will feature on some roads until the changeover is completed. Some limits are being rounded up, others down. The limit on back roads is being cut by 16 km/h.

The signs are costing 9 M�, while a total of 1.5 M� has been allocated for an information campaign. But Mr Brennan has to approve the deadline set by the metric task force and may decide it is too tight. However, the changeover must be completed before 2005-01-01 and the task force says that 2004-12-01 is the preferred date. Other major changes agreed include a time restriction of 12 months on special speed limits erected during major roadworks.

As revealed in the Irish Independent yesterday every motorist will be issued with a 'ready reckoner ' to help them cope with the changeover to metric.The new speed limits are: non-national roads 80 km/h, a drop of 16 km/h; national roads 100 km/h, up 4 km/h; 120 km/h on motorways. Local authorities can bring in new 30 km/h limits at schools and other high risk locations.

Treacy Hogan
Environment Correspondent

re (Carlyle): "Local authorities will erect 58 000 speed limit signs in kilometres per hour...The signs are costing 9 M�, while a total of 1.5 M� has been allocated for an information campaign..."

REPLY: Interesting. According to this information, each new sign will cost 155 euros, or around �105 at current exchange rates.

But what about the labour costs?

And remember that this is only for speed limit signs; they are leaving the tens of thousands of road signs on Irish minor roads in miles!

If Britain has 1.5 million road signs with distances, dimensions or speed limits on them that have to be changed, and each sign costs �105, that would be �157,500,000. And the figure of �105 appears to exclude labour costs, by far the biggest expense

Irish September 5 2004, 1:16 AM


re (Carlyle): "Local authorities will erect 58 000 speed limit signs in kilometres per hour...The signs are costing 9 M�, while a total of 1.5 M� has been allocated for an information campaign..."

REPLY: Interesting. According to this information, each new sign will cost 155 euros, or around �105 at current exchange rates.



>>>>> So? It is a one time cost. Keep in mind that signs age and need to be replaced anyway. This is doing it all at once. The cost may also include using newer types of materials that are more resistannt to corrosion and weathering. There is more to the change then just metric.

Also there was a need to change some of the limits themselves. Something that was talked about but not done. That is being done also at this time. If it would have been done while still using miles the cost of the new signs would be the same. Would you complain then of the cost? They are killing a few birds with one stone. It is the metric factor that is getting the attention.


But what about the labour costs?


>>>>> That may already be factored in, or not included because they are using existing workers who are already on salary. So, instead of sitting around drinking coffee all day they are put to useful work.


And remember that this is only for speed limit signs; they are leaving the tens of thousands of road signs on Irish minor roads in miles!


>>>>>> Millions of those were already changed over the years. They will do the remnant as time permits. That can be done cheaper with adhesive overlays. I don't know how many remain to be changed, but one can be assured that the conversion of speed limits will most likely accelerate the completion of the distance sign changes.



If Britain has 1.5 million road signs with distances, dimensions or speed limits on them that have to be changed, and each sign costs �105, that would be �157,500,000. And the figure of �105 appears to exclude labour costs, by far the biggest expense


>>>>>>> They could follow the Canadian example, by using adhesive overlays. The cost was only a few dollars per sign. Then over time as the signs naturally decay and need to be replaced the new ones would be properly metric. There are always effective ways to change without huge expences.

Conversion also creates business for those who produce the supplies. Moves money into the pockets of workers.

The only problem I see is for you. How much would it cost your organisation to convert those metricated signs to imperial? Would you even try?


The effect of Irish road metrication will have an effect on other aspects of the automobile trade. Consider:

For car firms, the move to km/h only dials will cut costs and allow them to use the same "binnacle" or dials as on continental cars.

The change is likely to have a negative impact on the value of used cars with only mph readings, or with mph as the prominent display. It's also expected to impact on the new and used market for cars imported from Britain.

I'm sure the change in the laws in the UK will follow as soon as Irish conversion is completed. For the first time in history the UK will share a land border with a metric signed country. The cross border effects can not be ignored.

TB:

REPLY: Interesting. According to this information, each new sign will cost 155 euros, or around £105 at current exchange rates.

But what about the labour costs?

metre:
What are you complaining about, it keeps people employed.
Maybe this is the answer to America's unemployment problem. A switch to metric would stimulate industry, government, councils and retailers to spend money on conversion that creates employment. Thus solving 2 problems in one go.

<<
I'm sure the change in the laws in the UK will follow as soon as Irish conversion is completed. For the first time in history the UK will share a land border with a metric signed country. The cross border effects can not be ignored.
>>
Oh yes, they can be ignored. US-Canada share one of the longest international borders in the world. Km to the north, miles to the south. No major problems yet. (It has been almost 30 years, I believe.)



<<
What are you complaining about, it keeps people employed.
Maybe this is the answer to America's unemployment problem. A switch to metric would stimulate industry, government, councils and retailers to spend money on conversion that creates employment. Thus solving 2 problems in one go.
>>
Then why did you complain so much about the war in Iraq? Military activity requires weapons production, intelligence, supplies for troops, etc., all of which help increase employment.
Get my point? Having people do useless work for the sake of giving them something to do makes no sense at all.

I got to this lie:

"Millions of those were already changed over the years"

then I laughed and gave up reading the rest!

Then why did you complain so much about the war in Iraq? Military activity requires weapons production, intelligence, supplies for troops, etc., all of which help increase employment.
Get my point? Having people do useless work for the sake of giving them something to do makes no sense at all.


metre:
That is where your problem is, no flexibility of mind. Changing to metric will save lives in hospitals and surgeries, while fighting only kills and destroys. It sounds like you are happy with one, but not the other, so what is new?

And that, folks, is called the "argument loss tangent".

LOL!

>Does that include the remnant of distance signs in miles or other units to
>kilometres and metres? (Referring to the conversion of speed limit signs)

No the deadline for the distance signs is 2005-12-31, which might also have
led to the confusion.

>Do you have any idea how many signs there are in miles vs. kilometres still?

No idea, but only very old signs on small roads would be in miles. You would
be hard pressed to come across a mile distance sign on any of the country's
main roads.

<<No idea, but only very old signs on small roads would be in miles. You would
be hard pressed to come across a mile distance sign on any of the country's
main roads.
>>

The first bit ('no idea') made me grin. I thought "at last! he might stop babbling on about countries he's never been to!"

Then the rest of it let him down.

He doesn't realise how rural Ireland (Eire) is outside Dublin.

Most of Eire's roads are about 6 to 10 ft wide!

And most have wild horses all over the place!

Euric - Ireland is very unspoilt and rural outside Dublin.

(well apart from the km brigade coming to remove a little bit of rural ireland that is!)


Hey, Euric/Carlyle! Say "destruction" for us again.
It's been a while and that always makes me laugh.

Greetings,

The Minister for Transport today announced that 2005-01-20 will be the changeover day for road speed signs.

The original date was to have been this month, but this was delayed because legislation did not pass in time for the summer recess.

The Minister's statement referred to "ALL ROAD SIGNS", although it is the speed signs (all of which are currently in MPH) rather than the small number of distance signs on minor roads that were originally scheduled for changeover by the end of the year.

The actual date is a Thursday, which is unusual if the intention is to change all the signs on the same day. More likely, they intend to replace the signs over a period leading up to this date. This will be possible as the new signs will have explicit "km/h" symbols under the number (the signs will continue to use the circular black-letter-white-background-red-edge format), so they are unambiguous. It is, however, obviously desirable to keep the mixed interval to an absolute minimum (this was one of the factors in the success of the Euro changeover, and the smoothness of that transition was noted by the Minister in his speech today).

I shall try to get more details about the switchover from the Dept, and keep the list updated.

The changeover date misses the intended deadline of December 2004 (which will require an amendment to the Statutory Instrument), but at 20 days, it is not seen as a serious postponement. For comparison, the introduction of the state wide ban on smoking in the workplace (including bars, restaurants and offices was three months overdue, but has met with almost universal compliance, and high levels of support (even among a majority of smokers).

A public information campaign will begin towards the end of November.

I am personally delighted with this announcement. It will be a highly visible step in the well advanced conversion to metric in this country, and one for which I have been campaigning for many years. Hopefully it will also provide ammunition for the UKMA in their campaign to bring about a similar change over there.

Tom Wade


http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=96211560&p=96zyzy4x&n=96212169


Metric speed limits to debut in January
2004-09-10 12:14:29

Transport Minister Seamus Brennan has set 2005-01-20 as the target date for the changeover of speed limits and road signs from miles to kilometres.

The move is designed to bring Ireland into line with the metric system used in continental Europe.

Mr Brennan said today that, from 2005-01-20, all speed limits and journey distances would be displayed in kilometres, while all cars imported into Ireland would also have to have metric speedometers.

He also announced that random breath testing for motorists would be introduced before Christmas.

Hi Tom,

OR euric.

Or Carlyle

(or whoever).

Another delay eh.

Remember telling us in the UK that all clothing was to be in metric by October 2004?

Half a month to go then.....

|> Does anyone here, who posts from the EU know anything about a new
|> labelling method involving a pictogram and measurements shown in
|> centimetres. This new type of label is suppose to replace the various
|> inconsistent national labels in all EU countries and it was suppose to
|> start appearing this year (2004).
|>
|> The standard may also be known by EN 13402-1 and EN 13402-2.

There are two more standards

EN 13402-3 Measurements and intervals

EN 13402-4 Coding system

that are still under draft review and have not yet been published.

Originally, EN 13402-3 was meant to be published in Spring 2004,
but there have been some delays with the various national projects
to gather large amount of statistical data on what the current
body dimensions of the population are. While Part 1 and 2 are
universally applicable, as they refer only to the way the clothes
are labelled, part 3 defines in which step sizes clothes
should be offered. And picking the right step sizes and ranges
will be optimized based on current body measurements, for which
thousands of volunteers have to step in underwear into a laser
scanner cabin. This project has already been completed, but the
EN 13402 committee is still waiting for the final reports of similar
studies in other European countries.

EN 13402-4 will define a short string of digits that identifies
a clothes sizes and can be made, for example, part of a stock-keeping-unit
(SKU) or ordering number.

|> Has anyone seen any new clothes displaying the new label with the
|> pictogram?

In Britain, Marks & Spencer has been duallabeling their clothes
in in and cm for many years already, though I haven's seen the
pictogram yet. I have seen the vendors of professional and
specialist clothing (uniforms, diving suits, etc.) using
EN 13402-1 dimensions for quite some time.

Markus

I guess that's an elaborate way of saying "no" then.

Poor idiot!

P.S. I've seen cm being used in clothes as an afterthought to metric for years. It's nothing to do with the new clothing labelling that you said was coming in during spring/october (!) of this year.

Just because it's there and gets ignored doesn't mean your -ahem- "war" is won!!!

:-)

P.S. Bit of a giveaway eh - October being "spring" (think about the logistics folks)

Carly: "D'Oh!"

SH wrote: I've seen cm being used in clothes as an afterthought to metric for years. It's nothing to do with the new clothing labelling that you said was coming in during spring/october (!) of this year.

Just because it's there and gets ignored doesn't mean your -ahem- "war" is won!!!

INDEED
Collar sizes, clothes sizes, and madly OS maps in km first
all my life
Yet who uses it
How many wasted hours ignoring the first measurement?
Perhaps the metricksters should ask for the metric to be put SECOND it might get noticed!!

Irish Times Motoring Supplement.

There is confusion about the new delay among the three companies involved in producing the 59,000 new signs. Frank Murphy from Rennicks, which was awarded the tender to produce over half of the new signs, said he had found it difficult to tie the Department down to an absolute deadline. "I had great difficulties in finding out dates," he said. Despite this, Murphy confirmed that its 29,000 signs have been delivered to county councils and are awaiting erection.

The Metric Changeover Board, which includes members of the Metrication
Implementation Group, has now been established to oversee the changeover, which includes erecting and unveiling the signs, and also to structure "a vigorous multimedia campaign" which will begin immediately after Christmas. A Department official said that running such an important information campaign in the run-up to, or during, Christmas would not reach all motorists. Therefore the decision was taken to delay the entire project.

Any further delay in the roll- out will have major implications at a time when new-car sales peak. Car importers were until recently working towards a January 1st deadline. Many new cars already have km/h-only speedometers.

By January 1st, all new cars will have these.

Speaking last week at the launch of the new Ford Focus, Ford Ireland
chairman and managing director Eddie Murphy said: "Nobody's going to quibble with the introduction of metric limits. It's long overdue and part of the European ideal. But I'm sure I speak for most people when I say the transition frightens me. We were set a deadline by the Department. We acted on it. The result is that our cars will be available in metric versions only in 2005. Now the Government needs to stick to its deadline. It has been na�ve in its dealings to date, betraying a lack of comprehension of lead-times, production complexities and so on. There is an unspoken concern that a delayed transition would hamper early-2005 sales, which are essential to our profitability."

The Department is adamant there will be no further delays

So the government is being forced to convert because it prematurely promised it would and then decided it wasn't in their best interest. (If it was, they wouldn't be evading, er, delaying, it so much.
How many "delays" have we had??

Bud wrote

<<
How many "delays" have we had??
>>

Fewer than in Britain - the first metrication bill was passed by Parliament in 1854 (or thereabouts!)

So the government is being forced to convert because it prematurely promised it would and then decided it wasn't in their best interest. (If it was, they wouldn't be evading, er, delaying, it so much.
How many "delays" have we had??



Sounds like someone has just tasted some sour grapes. Can't stand the fact that one more domino has fallen.

Even if they have delayed the sign implementation they can not delay the car instrumentation change. Once the auto companies have changed their manufacturing to install metric instrumentation it can not be stopped or delayed. As the article already stated some cars are already being sold in Eire with metric ONLY instrumentation and the all cars after 2005-01-01 will be metric only.

And will everyone be required to buy a new car on New Year's Day?

Car speedometers in Ireland (and UK) already have km/h as well so it just means you have to look at the smaller figures - or memorise the conversions. Lets face it, the new limits don't mean you drive at a different speed to before.

I did read something about some kind of sticker that is being made available to cover the existing dial

Bud wrote

<<
And will everyone be required to buy a new car on New Year's Day?
>>

Bud, thousands of people in both the UK and the Irish Republic have taken their cars to France and elsewhere on holiday. There is a vast accumulated wealth of experience of driving cars that have mph speedometers (with km/h in smaller lettering) on roads where the speed limits and distance are in km/h and in km. Although it is an irritant, it does not warrant changing one's car or spending vast sums on a new speedometer (OK a small sum, say �10 or �20 for a sticker on the speedo).

"Even if they have delayed the sign implementation they can not delay the car instrumentation change. Once the auto companies have changed their manufacturing to install metric instrumentation it can not be stopped or delayed. As the article already stated some cars are already being sold in Eire with metric ONLY instrumentation and the all cars after 2005-01-01 will be metric only."

A continuing ignorance to the car buying preferences of the Irish!

P.S. (to all the "right minded" people here) Does this mean that little Ireland will have a seperate car production run in countries that produce cars? ie presuming that Ireland is the only local country that has RHD cars needing a kmh speedo next to a country of almost 60 million who demand MPH speedos in their RHD cars?

That's one TALL domino!

SteveH wrote

<<
Does this mean that little Ireland will have a seperate car production run in countries that produce cars? ie presuming that Ireland is the only local country that has RHD cars needing a kmh speedo next to a country of almost 60 million who demand MPH speedos in their RHD cars?
>>

If you order a new car, you can specify almost anything you like (well within reason). Each car is made to order. When it comes to fitting the car out, all the bits for that particular car arrive at the assembly point when the uncompleted car does. A metric/Imperial speedo is just one of many options - others include the type of trim etc. Also, some companies (eg Volkswagen) have a production line in South Africa for one particular model (LHD or RHD), export most of that particular production line to Europe and then import the other models from Europe. South Africa drives on the left and had km/h speedo's - they have been doing that for years. The SOuth African car market is comparable to Ireland's (maybe bigger).

Problem solved.

It will be interesting to see how many of those Irish cars with metric only instrumentation makes their way into the UK, especially Ulster. Just think of how many UK used cars that normally would have gone to Eire will be banned for not having the proper instrumentation.

I bet you are licking your lips in anticipation.

Ireland already has different models/specifications to those in the UK so it won't really make much difference. For example they have Opel instead of Vauxhall.

I can't see how having a different speedometer unit is going to cause problems

"It will be interesting to see how many of those Irish cars with metric only instrumentation makes their way into the UK, especially Ulster. Just think of how many UK used cars that normally would have gone to Eire will be banned for not having the proper instrumentation. "

Ignorance again!

How many car drivers in the UK compared to Eire?
And UK cars being banned? Pull the other one! You be saying that they don't take UK currency in Eire next! Hmm? Looking for a bite there?

I've seen cars in "metric" states that have mph speedos.
In fact in spain they have buses that show both mph and kmh - as the buses were UK made.

Carly: No they didn't

<<
Bud, thousands of people in both the UK and the Irish Republic have taken their cars to France and elsewhere on holiday. There is a vast accumulated wealth of experience of driving cars that have mph speedometers (with km/h in smaller lettering) on roads where the speed limits and distance are in km/h and in km. Although it is an irritant, it does not warrant changing one's car or spending vast sums on a new speedometer (OK a small sum, say �10 or �20 for a sticker on the speedo).
>>

I am really surprised to see that people who think that having mixed measurements on road signs poses a safety hazard have no problem with the speedometer and the speed limit signs in different units. Yes, I realize that km/h is there underneath, but when you are driving you have to instinctively look down and determine your speed, you cannot stop to think which country you are in and decide which number to look at.

I am really surprised to see that people who think that having mixed measurements on road signs poses a safety hazard have no problem with the speedometer and the speed limit signs in different units. Yes, I realize that km/h is there underneath, but when you are driving you have to instinctively look down and determine your speed, you cannot stop to think which country you are in and decide which number to look at.



That is why it is most important that all speed limits, distance signs and car instrumentation be in one system only. That being the standard that 97 % of the world uses, metric. Since the use of imperial can create a safety hazard then it should be banned. The sooner, the better.

Bud wrote

<<
I am really surprised to see that people who think that having mixed measurements on road signs poses a safety hazard have no problem with the speedometer and the speed limit signs in different units. Yes, I realize that km/h is there underneath, but when you are driving you have to instinctively look down and determine your speed, you cannot stop to think which country you are in and decide which number to look at.
>>

Bud - do you have practical experience of this - I do, so do most British poeple on this forum.

I do have practical experience of this, although very limited. When I drove down into Mexico, signs were in kilometres, and I had to constantly keep reminding myself to look at the small numbers underneath on the speedometer rather than the larger ones that I always look at. I was only there for a day, so I don't know what would have happened had I given myself more time, but it definitely was a distraction in the beginning.

Bud,

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier if the units of measure were used both sides of the border?

It may be easier, but I don't think it would be "a lot" easier, because only a small fraction of the drivers in the country regularly drive across the border. In any case, I don't think the benefits of making it easier would justify the millions that would have to be spent to make the conversion.

Personally I just think of 100kmh being 60 in "foreign" and 50 being 30.

Quite easy really.

And bear in mind that its an offence *not* to speed in some european countries!!!

Bud wrote

<<
It may be easier, but I don't think it would be "a lot" easier, because only a small fraction of the drivers in the country regularly drive across the border.
>>

Bud, the border between N and S Ireland is an open border adn communities who live there regularly cross the border. In fact, a significant portion of the workforce in N.Ireland's second city Londonderry (Derry) live across the border and commute across the border daily.

It doesn't matter because English will be spoken on both sides of the border.

The winding lanes might show metric distances and the speed limits too but in rural Eire these figures don't mean much.

In casual speak I wil bet a large amount of money that in 10 yrs time people will still talk in miles in S.Ireland. This already happens in Barbados (I can explain more if necessary)

In casual speak I wil bet a large amount of money that in 10 yrs time people will still talk in miles in S.Ireland. This already happens in Barbados (I can explain more if necessary)



An admission thatBabados roads are signed in metric and the cars have metric instruments.

In eire 10 years down the road the word miles MAy still be heard, but the numbers will be the kilometres seen on the signs. The very same practice seen in Barbados.

<<
Bud, the border between N and S Ireland is an open border adn communities who live there regularly cross the border. In fact, a significant portion of the workforce in N.Ireland's second city Londonderry (Derry) live across the border and commute across the border daily.
>>

Yes, I am sure that there are people who cross regularly, but the populatoin of Londonderry is probably much smaller than the rest of Ireland. You can't have Londonderry switch to metric and not the rest of Northern Ireland. You have to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure it would be benificial to the border cities to convert to metric, but that is not possible. It would be necessary to convert the entire country, which would place a large financial burden on everyone else.
If the majority of people in Northern Ireland were crossing the border regularly, then it might make sense.

Bud

It's an emotive subject, but what exactly do you mean by "Londonderry is probably much smaller than the rest of Ireland"? In the same way, Northern Ireland is much smaller than the rest of Ireland.

Martin was polite enough to refer to the city by both names it is commonly known by.

In general terms,

"Ireland" is the whole island

"Northern Ireland" or "Ulster" (Yes, I know that Ulster is technically incorrect) is part of the UK.

"Republic of Ireland" or "Eire" is a country independent of the UK

Derry/Londonderry are names used by opposite sides of the sectarian divide.

Back to W&M....

Are there not roads that connect the USA/Canada that are signposted in imperial in a northbound direction and in metric southbound? Why insist on keeping Northern Ireland imperial only? Do you know how small (population-wise & geographically) it actually is?

I meant to say that Londonderry is probably much smaller than the rest of Northern Ireland. Sorry about that.
I wouldn't know what names it is commonly known by, because I had never heard of it until today.
I realize that Northern Ireland is very small, but it is not so small that most of its people go to Ireland regularly. I would guess that the ratio of populations is similar to Canada-US. To answer your question, signs near both American borders are dual for several miles (or kilometres) in each direction.

To put Ireland into context:

Southern Ireland has an area of 70,000 km^2 (The area of W.Virginia) and a population of just under 4 million. N. Ireland has an area and population of between one third and one quarter that of the Irish Republic. The distance from Dublin to Belfast is 168km.

The area of California is about 500,000 km^2 and the distance from Los Angles to San Francisco is about 500km. (I am open to correction on the ficgures for California).

Martin - was that some sort of "maximum use of metric numbers" post which few on this board (and even fewer in this country) use in normal life.
You could have been more educational and done the post in Afrikaans.
Or do what Bud did and use both.


"An admission thatBabados roads are signed in metric and the cars have metric instruments."

This is what I like most about berzerk anti-imperial extremists. If you care to look at my "international" posts covering Barbados you will see that not once have I ever said that they use imperial on their roads! Perhaps you were blindly looking at my St Lucia post (where they DO use imperial, UKMA!!).

In Basrbados there are VERY VERY few signs (apart from location pointers and warning signs). There are very few speed limit signs (in kmh) but the odd thing is that most of the distance signs are in miles, or for shorter distances, about 50% metres/yards. Bear in mind that most distance signs are put up by private organisations for certain famous beaches, restaurants and places of interest. Also note that Barbados is number 4 in the "least state interference" chart!!! I suspect the UK was quite high in that chart up until the EU experiment.

As far as Barbados in general - its mainly imperial.

The cars are quite odd. Bearing in mind that its a "drive on the left" country all the far eastern cars come straight from the far east with kmh speedos, any other car - say for instance a German Audi, get the UK model with MPH large and kmh small. This was a constant theme.

Any more questions about barbados and I will gladly and honestly reply (regardless of certain peoples warped views of the world).

The strangest thing to me was Bahamas - where they drive on the left, use imperial signage, but almost all the cars (est 99%) where left hand drive!!! Bizzare! I can only assume that this was due to proximaty to USA where their west most island was a mere 200 miles (da dee da kilometres) from America.

P.S. I hired a four-by-four whilst in Barbados and spent rather little time reading the speedo and rather more time in constant amazement whenever the shiney tarmac road turned into off-road territory where I'd thought I'd made a wrong turning until I noticed a national bus hurtling towards me at a fair old rate enveloped in a cloud of dust!

P.S.2 (erm, isn't that a game machine) "Londonderry" is the correct name of the town merely because the original town of Derry was rebuilt using contractors from London, Some ignorants on the republican side mistakingly see the "london" bit as a p*ss take and equally some ignorants on the loyalist side use the "london" bit as a p*ss take.

It was originally called Doire (not sure if I remember the spelling) - so its not even Derry anyway as that is an anglicised version of the name so surely no hard core republican would even call it "Derry" !

But that's Narn Ireland for you!

Martin - that was a close score on Saturday!!

Steve
re Londonderry/Derry

Try the NI Tourist Board site at http://www.geographia.com/northern-ireland/ukider00.htm

If you decide to visit, you could watch Derry City play football in the FAI's Premier League. Their fans have crossed the border for every away game since they left the (Northern) Irish Football Association.

As you are a rugby fan, you could watch City of Derry Rugby Club play in the 3rd division of the All-Ireland league.

In the GAA, County Derry have won both the Hurling & Gaelic Football Championships at Croke Park in Dublin on various occasions. I would assume that Derry City Council (www.derrycity.gov.uk) gave them a civic reception every time.

<<
N. Ireland has an area and population of between one third and one quarter that of the Irish Republic.
>>

There, you said it yourself. One third to one quarter is not a negligible fraction. It is large enough that the majority of people in it would not be regularly travelling across the border.

A sample of American fair play?

TIT-FOR-TAT MEASURESWeb Posted - Mon May 10 2004 By Terence Murrell.
A local company executive has lamented the use of labelling standards by the United States to restrict the entry of his company’s products into the US market, and has advocated that Barbados institute its own “barriers” to limit the flood of American products coming into Barbados. Edwin Thirwell, the executive chairman of BICO, noted last week during a seminar hosted by the Caribbean Employers’ Confederation, that labelling standards in the US as it relates to the use of the metric system in Barbados has led his company to focus instead on the European market. “We do not export to the United States because the barrier to trade is labelling in their case. They also operate a quota system with regard to dairy products. How can you have a free and open trading environment and there are quota systems? We made a decision therefore that we would not even try to enter that market because of the barriers created via labelling standards.” According to Thirwell, Barbados could use the fact that it is a metricated country as a barrier to American goods. “They would not hesitate to do the same thing to us, and I think we have to be a bit more aggressive with regard to these issues. Every time you try, they put another barrier in the way, so we need to do the same thing. We should be saying, get your American products out of here, because we are a metricated country. We do not want unstandardised sizes, and this is a barrier which could be easily implemented. It is perfectly legal under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.” Thirwell further lamented that there are also restrictions in the US market with regard to portion sizes. “The US, Canada and Europe have different standards with regard to portion sizes. Every time you want to send anything to the US, the writing on the package is looked at with a microscope to see if they are any grounds for stopping it from entering. We are therefore going to target the European market because we use the metric system. The biggest export market for us is actually the UK market, which has 600 000 West Indians. We have a presence across the Caribbean, from Belize in the west to Guyana in the southeast. In supporting the comments made by Edwin Thirwell, Omar Ortiz, manager of finance, labour and trade for the Belize Chamber of Commerce, noted that the United States’ Bio Terrorism Act has impacted enormously on countries in Latin America and in some ways it has impacted the Caribbean as well. According to him, one of the problems with the act is – regardless of the fact that goods may be intransit – as long as they are going to touch a US port, they have to be qualified and certified. “A problem that we find is that goods being exported from Belize may not be enough to fill a container, so you may get a container coming from Africa, for instance, which ends up in Belize, but when it came from Africa it had some battery or some chemicals in it, and that container comes back to the shipping service to Belize, and it has residues or chemicals. The goods that we ship in that container, which are intransit to the US, is some kind of food product for human or animal consumption. When they (US) check the exterior of the package and they find the residue, that entire shipment is held up. The cost of destroying it or sending it back is borne by the person who is in fact exporting it,” stated Ortiz.
http://www.barbadosadvocate.com/NewViewNewsleft.cfm?Record=17500

Berenger - looks like I was not far off in my info about Northern Ireland.

"At the time of the plantation of Ulster, the City of London sent master-builders and money to rebuild the ruined medieval town hence the name Londonderry"

and

"St Columb came out of Donegal to escape the plague 1,400 years ago and founded his first monastery in the oak grove (Doire in Gaelic)"

I particularly liked this one:

"You can walk along the great 17th-century walls, about a mile round and 18 feet thick" - you can guess why!

I'd like to know your viewpoint on another thing though.

What do you think of people who talk about far away countries using "evidence" by cutting and pasting from the web but never ever having visited said country? We know that Carlyle has done this for ages about the UK.

I only ask because I've been to Barbados 4 times and although they don't export much (rum and tourism is the big thing!) I can confirm to you that this Rum Cake I am eating here is both 16oz in weight and totally delicious.

Don't worry though - the total alcohol content is just 1.5%!

It is a very heavy cake though - 16 oz sounds quite big but it only measures about 4.5 inches across and 1 inch deep. It's very stodgy but delicious. Banana flavour is my favourite.

Did you know that most of their foodstuff comes in from America?

Hmmm.

I'm bored.

I might go searching for a site about Brazil that uses imperial measures and declare that the whole country is Imperial and not metric !

I've never been to Brazil - I wonder what it's really like?

;-)

Steve
Wasn't disagreeing with your history of the place. Just pointing out it is commonly known as Derry.

Heard enough about "Derry's Walls" last night. Rangers & Celtic were on the box. Please let the English Premiership take them away soon....

"What do you think of people who talk about far away countries using "evidence" by cutting and pasting from the web but never ever having visited said country? We know that Carlyle has done this for ages about the UK."

Fair enough that people can cut'n'paste if they want. They'll usually make a daft mistake eventually that shows they don't know what they are talking about.

I saw Northern Ireland from a distance today. Does that count? It's years since I've been over.

The strangest thing to me was Bahamas - where they drive on the left, use metric signage, but almost all the cars (est 99%) where left hand drive!!! Bizzare! I can only assume that this was due to proximaty to USA where their west most island was a mere 200 miles (da dee da kilometres) from America.


What is so odd about that? Most of Asia and and all of Australia and New Zealand drive on the left and have only metric signed roads.

When you wrote 200 miles da dee da kilometres, you did all of us a disservice, including your own followers. You didn't clarify what miles your were talking about. Is it nautical or is it statute? 200 nautical miles is 370 km and 200 statute miles is 320 km, a difference of 50 km. I'm sure your 200 miles was rounded for convenience and the converted metric could easily be rounded to 300 km or 400 km and retain the same level of accuracy.

Yet, neither would be correct as the northernmost island of the Bahamas lies in the Atlantic Ocean about 84 km off the southeast Florida coastline. 84 km is a far cry shorter then 300 km or 400 km you wanted us to believe. But you have proven time and again that imperial can not be counted on for accuracy.

<<
You didn't clarify what miles your were talking about. Is it nautical or is it statute?
>>


Hahaha, some anonymous person is getting desperate here.

<<
You didn't clarify what miles your were talking about. Is it nautical or is it statute?
>>


Hahaha, some anonymous person is getting desperate here.



Do you know for sure which one it was? Either way as I said it didn't matter as neither would have been right. He was off by a whopping 3 to 4 times. Not surprising though, as errors using imperial are very common.

1) I was referring to nassau rather than one of the uninhabited islands (only 40 of the 700 islands are actually habited)

2) You changed my post:

"The strangest thing to me was Bahamas - where they drive on the left, use <<<metric>>> signage, but almost all the cars (est 99%) where left hand drive!!! Bizzare! I can only assume that this was due to proximaty to USA where their west most island was a mere 200 miles (da dee da kilometres) from America."

For whatever reason (probably desperation, as Bud puts it) you changed the word 'imperial' to 'metric' in my post. It was at this point that I realised that you'd lost the argument again carly. And then you totally lost it when you started banging on about knots.

Interesting dilemma though - you are both sad and desperately funny!

P.S. I quoted you as "softening your extremism" on another post - I guess I have to take it all back now.

Now then,

onto 12" records........

Berenger: "Wasn't disagreeing with your history of the place. Just pointing out it is commonly known as Derry."

I wonder if that's more to do with ease of use rather than politics - you know, a shortening. Not sure. Shame we haven't got a narn-irelander on the boards.

By the way, eric didn't come back on the Barbados issue (see his post and my follow up above).

I wonder if I should take a leaf out of his book and dance around like some sort of victory and then insult him on these boards?

Nah! That'd be desperation!

<<
Do you know for sure which one it was? Either way as I said it didn't matter as neither would have been right. He was off by a whopping 3 to 4 times. Not surprising though, as errors using imperial are very common.
>>

Yes, I know for sure which one it was, as does anyone with any common sense. If I say that Neil Armstrong went to the moon, do you know whether I mean the moon of earth or the moon of Jupiter?
And the error was not due to using imperial, the error was due to the conversion. If you had converted in the other direction, the same error would have resulted. But if you want to find fault with the system, I guess you can blame it for whatever you wish.

20 November 2004

TENS of thousands of new metric speed limit signs are to be erected
across the Republic early next year, replacing what the AA yesterday
described as the "perverse" existing system.

At present, distances are measures in kilometres but speed limits as
miles-per-hour, but from late January both will be metric.

A total of 58 000 new speed limit signs are to be erected on 98 000
metres of road during a three-day period ending on 2005-01-20, Transport
Minister Martin Cullen told the Dail yesterday.

The 10 M� cost of the new signs will include a 1million euro
public awareness campaign.

The new speed limits will be 50 km/h in built-up
areas; 80 km/h for regional and local roads outside built-up
areas, 100 km/h for major roads and 120 kmh on motorways.

AA spokesman Conor Faughnan said the change was long overdue.

He said it did not make sense to have a bizarre system whereby road
distances are measured in kilometres and speed limits in mph.

"It must have seemed perverse to visitors," he commented.

He said, however, that the AA is concerned that some roads which had
incorrect existing speed limits could have them rounded up or down to
the closest kilometres per hour limit.

The AA had given the Department of Transport a list of about 70 signs
which it felt were unsuitable.

"The erection of 58 000 signs is quite a significant undertaking, but I
have been assured that they will be put in place by 2005-01-20, when the
new metric system will be initiated," he said.

A simple conversion table for drivers will be distributed to every home
and the Society of the Irish Motor Industry had ensured the vast
majority of new vehicles coming in from 2005 would have speedometers
which were metric only.

<<
The 10 M� cost of the new signs will include a 1million euro
public awareness campaign.
>>

Wow, TEN MILLION EUROS? Just think of all the things a country could do with that amount of money.

Bud wrote

<<
Wow, TEN MILLION EUROS? Just think of all the things a country could do with that amount of money.
>>

There are about 4 million people in Ireland. There are 60 million in the UK and about 25 million vehicles. This suggests that there are about 1.5 million vehicles in Ireland.

Assuming that km/h speedos will cost 5 Euros less than the equivalent mph speedos due to higher production runs, the Irish motoring public will benefit by 7.5 million Euros. In addition, since all the speed limit signs will be new, the benefit will be another 5 million Euros (assuming that on average the existing signs were replaced half way through there useful lives). This give a net benefit of 2.5 million Euros.

<<<Wow, TEN MILLION EUROS? Just think of all the things a
country could do with that amount of money.>>>

10 million euros is a lot of money to you and me, but to a government it is fairly insignificant. In the city where I live about �2 million was spent by the council repaving the main shopping street! Admittedly there were a few cock-ups & it shouldn't have cost that much, but my point is 10 million is not a lot in the wider scheme of things.

Erin go Bragh (or should that be "Eric" go Bragh) is, of course, our old resident extremist CARLYLE (aka Ametrica, HevetS, euric etc)

I have, to hand, the original article and he has butchered it somewhat. He's dropped various parts and also attempted to metricate money by inventing for himself a new derived metric measurement - the "megaeuro". Of course since no-one in Europe or the rest of the world uses the term 'mega-euro' this just shows up the silly little man for what he is.

Carlyle is getting rather desperate recently - I wonder why?

Wow, TEN MILLION EUROS? Just think of all the things a country could do with that amount of money.


That is far less then the daily cost of the US military in Iraq. And it is a one time cost, not like the on going costs the US tax payers have to indure in keep their forces in iraq.

Whoah!

Watch out everyone! A low flying tangent!!!!!


ROTFL!!!

<<
Assuming that km/h speedos will cost 5 Euros less than the equivalent mph speedos due to higher production runs
>>

Martin, I seriously doubt that. In economics, there is a critical point after which, increasing the quantity produced will not significantly decrease cost per unit. A speedometer is simply a piece of plastic - only the location of the numbers on it would have to change. And with the recent popularization of digital speedometers, it would be even less.

Bud,

ALthough the costs associated with production might be low, there are also costs associated with keeping many variants of the same part. Once the UK adopts metric units, manufacturers need only keep one style of speedo in stock.

" And with the recent popularization of digital speedometers, it would be even less "

Interestingly this is actually a backward step for metric since these styles of speedos get around the rules that require both units to be seen on the dial - ie, you either see kmh OR mph (not both).

The more that digi-speedos get implemented the more difficult it gets to make it possible for the UK to do what no UK citizen wants, ie "go metric".

<<<Interestingly this is actually a backward step for metric since these styles of speedos get around the rules that require both units to be seen on the dial - ie, you either see kmh OR mph (not both).>>>

Is there really a rule requiring both to be shown? I doubt it.

<<<The more that digi-speedos get implemented the more difficult it gets to make it possible for the UK to do what no UK citizen wants, ie "go metric".>>>

Don't understand your logic there. Surely it makes it far easier. If,in the future the speed limits change to km/h all you do is flick a switch. It removes the need for a new instrument panel.

Obviously you can still switch it to mph, but that is down to personal choice.

<<Is there really a rule requiring both to be shown? I doubt it.>>

Although I've seen "mph only" speedos I'd wager a bet that there is a law requiring kmh be shown in microprint.

<<<Although I've seen "mph only" speedos I'd wager a bet that there is a law requiring kmh be shown in microprint.>>>

OK, you're on. I bet there isn't.

UK speedos have km/h because it is the international system and is useful if driving abroad.

US speedos have 'em too.

Anyway - back to the "virtual bet". Anyone know the answer to this?

Refer to www.dsa.gov.uk/driving/mph_kph.htm

Re: Irish roads to convert last 3 days in November November 29 2004, 6:24 AM


" And with the recent popularization of digital speedometers, it would be even less "

Interestingly this is actually a backward step for metric since these styles of speedos get around the rules that require both units to be seen on the dial - ie, you either see kmh OR mph (not both).

The more that digi-speedos get implemented the more difficult it gets to make it possible for the UK to do what no UK citizen wants, ie "go metric".



Actually digital displays in metric countries don't have the option of switching to non-metric. There is no need for it. Thus once the UK converts its roads, the digital displays on new cars will be metric only with no ability to switch it to obsolete units.

<<<The more that digi-speedos get implemented the more difficult it gets to make it possible for the UK to do what no UK citizen wants, ie "go metric".>>>

Don't understand your logic there. Surely it makes it far easier. If,in the future the speed limits change to km/h all you do is flick a switch. It removes the need for a new instrument panel.







Obviously you can still switch it to mph, but that is down to personal choice.


Exactly, and even if the road signs are in metric, the people of the UK will defy (in my view) the situation and proudly set their display to wonderful imperial units. That is, if they have switchable displays, which I know they won't. But I can wish that they will. They better or I'll throw a whopping big tantrum!

Oh and in about another month new Irish cars will be metric only! Darn them all to hades tossing our glorious imperial system into the gutter. Why is it I win all the argruments on this board, but nowhere else. Will someone give me an explanation I can comprehend?

Martin - thanks for clearing up that one - shame I didn't put money on it! (although to be honest I didn't really know myself).

BTW - did you know that ALL digital speedos have the ability to switch between km/h and mph? It usually involves pressing two buttons at the same time and waiting for 2 seconds or so and it flips between systems.

*DON'T* do this while driving though!!!!

Fair enough, never knew it was a requirement to have kilometres.

I guess if a country chooses to use an obscure measurement system it makes sense to require the international standard to be shown as well.

The US and UK (total over 300,000,000 people) and other countries use this "obscure" measurement.

But we also have mph in big print too!

;-)

SteveH wrote

<<
Darn them all to hades tossing our glorious imperial system into the gutter.
>>
The Irish had their own mile. We forced them to accept ours.

While you're answering "my" point with that, Martin, perhaps you can answer "my" other point on that same post - i.e. "Why is it I win all the argruments on this board, but nowhere else. Will someone give me an explanation I can comprehend?"

I cannot ROTFL - I have no energy left......