Did anyone see last week's Sunday Telegraph ?

There was an interesting article in there concerning a certain Mr. Bennett.

The online version can be seen by following the link below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/26/nukip26.xml

Nice one Tony!

A word of advice, if your work for Mr Kilroy-Silk takes you up to his East Midlands Euro-constituency just stear clear of the bit called "Leicester" !

Mr Bennett's local newspaper appears to have caught up with the story. The URL is:

www.herts-essex-news.co.uk/star/news/story.asp?id=156962

His facts appear to be sound.

Search Google or any other search engine under 'Prophet' Muhammed' 'Wives' 'Aisha' 'Consummation'.

The following facts about the Prophet Muhammed rapidly become clear:

* He had between 12 and 22 wives

* He first took an interest in Aisha when she was 4 to 5 years old, was betrothed to her at 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 8 or 9, and he was 53 or 54

* He actively participated in the killing of Jewish and other Arab tribal groups in his wars of conquest.

Ex-Muslims revealing the truth about Islam have their say on:

www.faithfreedom.org

while others keep a watch on militant Islam on

www.jihadwatch.org

In May, Melanie Phillips wrote the following:

________________________________

Dhimmi Britain

Manchester's schools are about to become a conduit for propaganda that threatens to sanitise the Islamic jihad. According to a report in Asian News, they will be disseminating a project launched by the Muslim Council of Britain to counter 'anti-Islam propaganda' and present Islam 'in a more positive light'. Or is it to counter the truth?

Dr Sangeeta Dhami is a leading organiser of the Books 4 Schools campaign. She said the material was principally aimed at white non-Muslim children who may have picked-up prejudiced views on Islam from the media. "We are trying to get away from things like ritual and the five pillars of Islam to look at common principles that bind Islam to humanity and other religions. "For example one of our posters has the names of the prophets including Jesus who of course is an important figure for Christians but who is also an important Muslim prophet. "In the secondary schools, the packs we will be tackling more recent and controversial issues like what is jihad. "Jihad means struggle but not necessarily a violent struggle. It can mean the struggle for tolerance and freedom." We will be leaving issues like suicide bombing up for discussion to encourage pupils, having heard about the general principles of Islam and jihad, to discuss and decide for themselves whether suicide bombers are carrying out their principles of jihad." '

Well now; identifying 'common principles' is fine and dandy, but what about those principles particular to Islam -- such as the death penalty for apostasy, or the duty to make non-Islamic societies inhabited by Muslims conform to Islamic principles? 'Getting away from ritual' appears to mean here denying any aspects of Islam that are actually religious, and pretending it is some kind of nebulous syncretic project instead. And as for jihad meaning 'inner struggle', will Manchester children be taught that it is the other sort of jihad, the conquest-by-violence-holy-war jihad, which has characterised Islam throughout its history and is precisely what al Qaeda and all its related groupuscules are preaching as justification for global mass murder?

The Muslim Council of Britain frequently accuses the media of Islamophobia simply for reporting terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam and jihad as Islamic terrorism. As the website Dhimmi Watch comments:

So I suppose Osama bin Laden, Sheikh Yassin and all his successors in Hamas, Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza in Britain, Abu Bakar Bashir in Indonesia, as well as jihadists in the Philippines, Thailand, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, and elsewhere, are all spreading "anti-Muslim propaganda"? To blame "anti-Muslim propaganda" for the identification of Muslims with violence (including suicide bombing) manifests an outrageous unwillingness to acknowledge the existence of the enormous number of voices within Islam who justify that violence on Islamic grounds. When is the MCB going to confront them?'

This project should be viewed with the greatest possible concern. If Manchester teachers or the education authority had an ounce of feeling for the truth, they would refuse to disseminate this propaganda. The Education Department should step in promptly and stop it.


*Dhimmi Watch defines dhimmitude thus: 'Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race. The dhimmi attitude of chastened subservience has entered into Western academic study of Islam, and from there into journalism, textbooks, and the popular discourse. One must not point out the depredations of jihad and dhimmitude; to do so would offend the multiculturalist ethos that prevails everywhere today.

Posted by Melanie Phillips at May 5, 2004 10:27 PM

I saw it on Monday - I do read non-Scottish papers!!

I didn't post as I thought it had nothing to do with the subject we are supposedly discussing.....

Like most people, I think Tony's views are more than slightly extreme - but he is entitled to hold these views.

Obviously, should Tony actually espouse any views supporting BNP policies or actual racism, he would surely be thrown off the boards??????

RE Beranger's comment...Like most people, I think Tony's views are more than slightly extreme...what is it about Mr Bennett drawing attention to certain historical facts, that some would much prefer to keep well hidden, make him remotely 'extreme'? Just asking...

I don't know or care to know anything about Islam. But, I keep getting this message in my email over and over, and thought I would post it here since others have brought up the subject.


Dear reciever of this email..

my name is albaraa..

I'm sending you this in hope to clarify the real truth about Islam, after
what's been happening in the world recently. Late incidents have been
putting Islam in a very awkward situation, which gave people a negative
idea about this religion. I'm hoping to show you how False this is; how
these certain incidents and certain people destroy the reputation of the
real Islam, and show you the truth..
If you don't wish to receive more emails from me, please say so and I will
remove you from my list


Islam and Muslims

Islam is an Arabic word which means total submission to God, peace, purity,
acceptance and commitment. As a religion, Islam calls for complete
acceptance of the teachings and guidance of God. A Muslim is one who freely
and willingly accepts the supreme power of God and strives to organize his
life in total accord with the teachings of God. He also works for building
social institutions which reflect the guidance of God. "Muhammadanism" is a
misnomer for Islam and offends its very spirit since the Prophet Muhammad
was a messenger of God, and not a divine being worshipped by Muslims.
Muslims use the word "Allah" for the English word "God". The understanding
of Deity in Islam differs from some of the connotations in the English
word, God. For the convenience of English speaking readers, the word God is
used in this brochure except when the word "Allah" is in the quotations
from the Qur'an.

Continuity of The Message
Islam is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and
guidance which God revealed to all His previous messengers. "Say: We
believe in Allah and that which was revealed to us, and that which was
revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and that
which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the Prophets from their Lord; We
make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit". Qur'an
3:83. The message which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon
him) is Islam in its comprehensive, complete and final form.
The Five Pillars of Islam
Every action done with the awareness that it fulfills the Will of God is
considered an act of worship in Islam. But it is the specific acts of
worship termed the Pillars of Islam which provide the framework of Muslim
spiritual life. These are given below:
1. The DECLARATION OF FAITH. "I bear witness that there is no one worthy of
worship except God (Allah), and that Muhammad is His servant and
messenger." The Prophethood of Muhammad obliges Muslims to follow his
exemplary life in every respect.
2. PRAYERS are prescribed five times a day as a duty towards God. Prayer
strengthens and enlivens belief in God and inspires man to higher morality.
It purifies the heart and controls temptation, wrong-doing, and evil.
3. FASTING during the month of Ramadan. This means abstention from food,
beverages, and sex from dawn to sunset, and curbing evil intentions and
desires. It teaches love, sincerity, and devotion. It develops patients,
unselfishness, social conscience, and willpower to bear hardship.
4. ZAKAH is a proportionately fixed contribution collected from the wealth
and earning of the well to do and rich. It is spent on the poor and needy
in particular, and the welfare of the society in general. The payment of
Zakah purifies ones income and wealth and helps to establish economic
balance and social justice in the society.
5. HAJJ, or pilgrimage to the Ka'bah in Makkah, once in a lifetime,
provided one has the means to undertake the journey.
Oneness of God
Islam enjoins faith in the oneness and sovereignty of God, which creates an
awareness of the unity and meaningfulness of the universe and of man's
place in it. This belief frees him from all fears and superstitions by
making him conscious of the presence of the Almighty God and of man's
obligations to Him. But this realization must be expressed and tested in
action. Faith alone is not enough. Belief in one God requires that we look
upon all humanity as one family under the universal omnipotence of God -
the Creator and Nourisher of all. Islam rejects the idea that there is a
"chosen people" making pure intention, faith in God, and good deeds the
only way to heaven. Thus a direct relationship is established with God,
open to all alike, without any discrimination or intercession.
The Qur'an and Hadith
The Qur'an is the last revealed word of God and the basic source of Islamic
teachings and laws. It deals with a variety of subjects including the basic
beliefs of Islam, morality, worship, knowledge, wisdom, God-and-man
relationships, and relations among human beings. Comprehensive teachings on
which sound systems of social justice, politics, economics, legislation,
jurisprudence, law and international relations can be built from an
important part of the Holy Qur'an. Though Prophet Muhammad did not receive
a formal education, the Qur'an, as soon as it was revealed to him in the
spoken word, was committed to writing by his secretaries. In this way every
word was written down and preserved during his lifetime by his companions.
The original and complete text of the Qur'an is in Arabic and translations
of its meaning in most known languages are available in major libraries and
bookstores. Hadith, the teachings, sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad,
accurately reported and collected by his devoted companions, explain and
elaborate the Qur'anic verses.
Concept of Worship
Islam does not teach ritualism. It places great emphasis on intention and
action. To worship God is to love him and to act upon His commands in every
aspect of life, to enjoin goodness and forbid wrong-doing and oppression,
to practice charity and justice and to serve Him by serving mankind. The
Qur'an presents this sublime concept in the following manner: "It is not
righteousness that you turn your faces to the East or West, but righteous
is he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the
Scripture and the Prophets; and gives his wealth for love of Him to
kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who
ask, and sets slaves free; and observes proper worship and pays the Zakah.
And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in
tribulation and adversity and time of stress; such are those who are
sincere. Such are the Godfearing". Qur'an 2:177.
Man, A Free Agent
Man is the highest creation of God and he has a free will to make his own
decisions. God has shown him the right path, and the life of Prophet
Muhammad provides a perfect example for achieving success and salvation.
Islam stands for the sanctity of human personality and confers equal rights
on all without distinction of race, nationality or sex. The law of God set
down in the Qur'an and exemplified in the life of the Prophet is supreme in
all cases. It applies equally to the prince and the pauper, the ruler and
the ruled, the saint and the sinner.
Man's Accountability to God
Man's life is not limited to the short span of earthly existence. On the
day of judgement the entire human race will be resurrected; everyone will
appear before the Almighty God and face the consequences of his deeds in
this life. Thus, life in the Hereafter is a continuation of the earthly
life. Belief in man's accountability to God gives a sense and meaning to
life and differentiates human beings from animals and inanimate objects. It
serves as a reminder against crime, corruption, immorality, and injustice.
Human Rights
Islam protects all noble values and human rights. Freedom, equality,
justice, and the right to life, liberty, and security of person are of
prime concern in Islamic law. "Whosoever kills a human being for other than
manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed
all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had
saved the life of all mankind..." Qur'an 5:32. Islam places great emphasis
on social justice. It opposes all those who exploit, oppress and deal
unjustly with people. " O ye who believe: Be steadfast witnesses for Allah
in equity and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not
justly. Be just; that is nearer to piety". Qur'an 5:8.
Science and Technology
Islam encourages the use of science and the scientific method. Acquisition
of knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim, male and female. In Islam,
science and technology should be used for moral ends and serve all
legitimate needs of mankind. Moreover, both are viewed as yet another means
to understand and see the power and glory of God. "He it is Who created for
you all that is in the earth." Qur'an 2:29. "It is your Lord, the Most
Bounteous, Who taught by the pen, taught man that which he knew not..."
Qur'an 96:2- 5. "We shell show them our Signs on the horizons and within
themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth..."
Qur'an 41:53.
Islam: The Cure for Modern Ailments
Racism is a major problem in many materially advanced countries. Prejudice
and discrimination against racial groups is common phenomenon even today.
For 1400 years Islam has shown in practice how racism can be ended. The
Islamic social scene, particularly during the Hajj, is a unique example of
the brotherhood of men of all races and nations under One God. Similarly,
the family, the basic unit of civilization has also become something of a
problem in the West. It is in visible decay. The family system of Islam
brings the rights of husband, wife, children, and relatives into a fine
equilibrium. Islam nourishes generosity in the family and holds it together
under the clear Qur'anic laws and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace
be upon him.
Some Misconceptions About Islam
It is unfortunate that some teachings of Islam have been distorted and
misrepresented in the West and the communist world. The main distortions
relate to the status of women, marriage and divorce, jihad or so-called
"holy war", the authenticity of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon
him), and the distinction between the Qur'an and the Hadith. The accurate
teachings of Islam on these matters can be obtained only from authentic
Islamic writings.

For more information about Islam:
http://www.geocities.com/fares3456/1.html

Let us all be fair to Tony and give him a chance to defend himself- I hope he does. In relation to one part of that article- one of Mohammed's brides may have been nine, but many monarchs of Europe have had young brides... so what does Tony say to that?


I sincerely hope this does not play into the hands of those who try to paint UKIP with the same brush as the BNP. This is going to sound horrible, because I know Tony and like him, but maybe he should be sacked- the good of the party (and therefore country) is far more important than one man's views. But as I say, I don't know the whole facts. Please comment tony :)

The following facts about the Prophet Muhammed rapidly become clear:

* He had between 12 and 22 wives

Seems like anyone who would complain about this one must be jealous that they can't have it this way. Anyway, how many other men of the period also had as many wives? Such a practice is common today and was just as common centuries ago. Now-a-days, a man is limited to 4 wives.

This practice pre-dates Islam and was just absorbed into it. Like most religions, many customs of the time of origin of the religion become a part of the religion even long after the reasons for doing things a certain way are forgotten.

The taking of multiple wives was practical for a few reasons.

1.) The need to propagate the species faster. Creating more children quicker insured a larger working population and if the child is male, more warriors for the ruler. Since disease and famine also killed off people, large family groups insured a better chance of survival of the clan(s).

2.) Men killed in battle left behind widows and orphans. To care for them, they were married off to whoever was left behind. Especially if the female population vastly outnumbered the male.

Even the clothes they wore evolved from pratical not religious reasons. The head to foot coverings protected them from the hot sun and blowing sands.


* He first took an interest in Aisha when she was 4 to 5 years old, was betrothed to her at 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 8 or 9, and he was 53 or 54

You are judging someone from a different time and culture with rules from present time and a more restrictive culture. It is common in many cultures to be bethrothed to someone at a young age. She may have been an orphan or from a poor family and the family happily sold her to him for money.

We really don't know how old she was when she matured. But in ancient cultures and in some today, a person is married or the marriage is consumated as soon as they are mature sexually, usually arounf 13 years old. since he waited to 8 or 9, she may have matured that early. If she had her first period, she was considered ready.

* He actively participated in the killing of Jewish and other Arab tribal groups in his wars of conquest.


Wasn't that kind of common in the old days (and in our wera too)? Wars and killings? Did the Romans, the Greeks and any other nation do the same things? We only know part of what ancient peoples did to each other in cruel ways. Even the Christains mistreated the Jews and Moslems. The Inquisition and Crusades are the most well known of the Christian pogroms. There have been many others.

Whether Islam or Islamic culture is right or wrong is not for me to judge, especially from the stand point of being brought up in a biased christianised culture and only knowing the more common stereotypical beliefs on Muslims and Arabs.

That is my two cents.

Aren't you going to tell us that Islam is metric as well? That would fit in perfectly with your style of posting nonsense.

Surely a quick search on the internet (for about 3 hrs) using "Islam + Metric" could cause you to start a whole new thread of nonsense to be disproved?

Anyway - back to TOny's thing. I thought it was common knowledge that Muhammad had what we would today call and "underaged relationship".

Besides, I'm sure even today there are a lot of countries that have very low ages of consent.

This particular subject does not cause me to fear Islam when compared to other subjects, believe me.

Yes, severla countries have ages of consent of 13. This is considered forward-looking. There we are then.

My controversial opinion is that they'll make access to 14 yr old boys and girls in this country legal within a decade - mainly pushed by the gay lobby.

If you look at the age of consent generally over the decades you'll notice an attempt to "de-pervertize".

I am pretty liberal. I don't like rules and regulations. If two peopel are willing to have sex and are ready, then good luck. Thing is, by reducing it to 14, 12, whatever, you have the problem where it is legitimate for pervs to prey on these people who may think they are ready for sex, but actually aren't. Even most sixteen year olds aren't ready for sex, let's face it.

Heres a link to a totally bizarre website which purports to tell you how "evil" a piece of text is.

http://homokaasu.org/gematriculator/

"Experts consider the mathematical patterns in the text of the Holy Bible as God's watermark of authenticity. Thus, the Gematriculator provides only results that are absolutely correct."

I'm delighted to say that my message of 2nd October 5.44pm comes up as 99% good & only 1% evil.

Bryan (October 4th 7.14am) comes out as 91% evil 9% good (sorry Bry - that was the highest "evil" score I found!)

I'm pleased that religion conclusively proves me to be in the right....

(Tongue is in cheek again, and no offence intended to anyone's religious beliefs)

Heres a link to a totally bizarre website which purports to tell you how "evil" a piece of text is.

http://homokaasu.org/gematriculator/


Enter the USMA URL site into the box: http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/

and then the BWMA site URL and compare the results.

Presumably this proves once and for all that metric is better?

Back to "viz" then....

Over a week ago, I asked Beranger this question: "What is it about Mr Bennett drawing attention to certain historical facts, that some would much prefer to keep well hidden, make him remotely 'extreme'? Just asking...".

I find it of interest that Beranger has posted subsequently on this thread and not answered this question. I hope he does, very soon.

Looking at Carlyle's second post, he seems to accept Mr Bennett's historical facts as correct, but then seeks to fully justify Mohammed's conduct on the following grounds:

* lots of Arabs at that time married a dozen or more wives and it was lawful. Carlyle also gives a variety of 'good' reasons why men should have 12-plus wives. Mohammed of course laid down that adherents of Islam should have no more than four wives, but it appears that he had 16-plus wives

* Aisha 'may have' had a first period at the age of 9 - so that makes consummation of their betrothal three years earlier justifiable

* lots of Arab tribes at that time would go on killing sprees against Jewish settlements and other Arab settlements and tribes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Carlyle.

Bryan Parry refers to European monarchs marrying young. At what age, Bryan? I can only find, for example, that the future King Charles IV of Spain married his first cousin Maria Louise when he was 17 and she was 14. It was claimed in 'Braveheart' [one of many historical inaccuracies in the film] that Princess Arabella married at the age of 13, but the historical record shows that she married in 1308 and so was 16 years of age. Where are the specific examples of any European monarch marrying under, say, the age of 14?

Incidentally, in Mississippi, boys and girls may marry at 15. The only other state I am aware of which provides for legal marriage below 14 appears to be Kansas, where boys and girls can marry at 12 to 16, but only with parental consent. Such cases are very rare.

Cannibalism was practised in many parts of the world at one time, and was therefore both a 'local custom' and, no doubt, lawful. Would Carlyle therefore say that this made cannibalism OK? [cannibalsim is still practised today in parts of Africa, by the way].

Carlyle's post from a dedicated Islamist gives only the positive side of Islam and within the statement he quotes is the claim that Mohammed accepted the authority of 'all the prophets from Abraham...including Jesus Christ'. Since Christ's central claim was that he was the Son of God, which Islam denies, clearly the two religions are in conflict and either one of them is right and the other wrong or neither is right. They self-evidently cannot both 'worship the same God' as the Islamist and Carlyle suggest.

Although Mr Bennett has been criticised for his 'views', it appears that his historical facts stand up absolutely and no-one has yet said he was incorrect to state that if Mohammed were alive today, he would be prosecuted for child sexual abuse (and presumably placed on the Sex Offenders' Register).

Mr. Observer, on one hand you criticise me and Carlyle for looking to the past, and yet you judge muslims ( I infer) based on how they USED to be. Personally, I think you may wish to criticise Islam, but look to your own culture first (remember the bible and logs in eyes etc).

Dear Observer

Here are a couple of quotes from the article under discussion

"Tony Bennett, a member of the UK Independence Party, was hauled before a party disciplinary committee two years ago for writing offensive remarks about Islam in a pamphlet published in 2000. He was banned from holding any UKIP office for two years."

"In the past I have been outspoken. I think everything I've said is factual, although occasionally it strays to opinion and the tone may have been a bit wrong on occasions."

Outspoken, extreme - you decide.

* lots of Arabs at that time married a dozen or more wives and it was lawful. Carlyle also gives a variety of 'good' reasons why men should have 12-plus wives. Mohammed of course laid down that adherents of Islam should have no more than four wives, but it appears that he had 16-plus wives


I think all cultures practiced polygamy in ancient times, not just Arabs. The practice even existed (and in some isolated places exists today) among the Mormons. I wouldn't say it was just an Arab custome




* Aisha 'may have' had a first period at the age of 9 - so that makes consummation of their betrothal three years earlier justifiable

Reread the original posting. The betrothal (promise) to place earlier at about age six. Indian children are bethrothed at this young of an age or at least they were. I don't think it was ever legal to have sex with a minor and in most cases the age of adulthood occured at the onset of puberty. People didn't live that long and an early start on reproduction was common.



* lots of Arab tribes at that time would go on killing sprees against Jewish settlements and other Arab settlements and tribes.


Not just Jews, but on anybody. Throughout history wars and killings were common to all cultures. To say the Arabs were the only ones doing killing would be somewhat asinine.



Correct me if I'm wrong, Carlyle.

<<
The practice even existed (and in some isolated places exists today) among the Mormons.
>>

FYI, the Mormon church has now officially denounced polygamy.

Observer said

"Bryan Parry refers to European monarchs marrying young. At what age, Bryan? I can only find, for example, that the future King Charles IV of Spain married his first cousin Maria Louise when he was 17 and she was 14. It was claimed in 'Braveheart' [one of many historical inaccuracies in the film] that Princess Arabella married at the age of 13, but the historical record shows that she married in 1308 and so was 16 years of age. Where are the specific examples of any European monarch marrying under, say, the age of 14?"

Margaret Beaufort (May 31, 1443 - June 29, 1509) was the daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset.

Margaret married four times, but had only one child. That child became Henry VII of England. (Born January 28 1457)

Margaret's first marriage, to John de la Pole, took place in 1450, when she was still a child, but was annulled after a short time. Her second cousin Henry VI had as yet no children, and considered naming her his heir. He married her to his half-brother, Edmund Tudor.

Edmund died while she was only thirteen and pregnant with their son. The difficult birth left her unable to have any more children.

............................

I also believe that Edward I married Elanor of Castille when he was 15 and she was 11 - but that she was over 16 at the time of their 1st child.

.............................

Edward II married Isabella of France (not Arabella) on 25 Jan 1308. Isabella was born in Paris some time between 1292 and 1295. For her to be 16 at the time of the marriage, she would have to have a birthdate within the range 1 Jan 1292 - 25 Jan 1292 (or earlier)



All the above information may be found on Wikipedia. (And yes, I agree that Braveheart isn't exactly an accurate historical document!!)