Scientists want Moon Treaty revised
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, 2004-12-03

About 200 planetary scientists from 17 nations have recommended that the 1979 Moon Treaty "be revisited, refined, and revised as necessary in light of the present-day impetus for expeditions, both robotic and human, to the moon, by several nations."

The treaty recognises the moon and its natural resources as the common heritage of mankind and "is not subject to national appropriation by any claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means."

The Udaipur Declaration issued at the sixth International Conference on the Exploration and Utilisation of the moon, which ended last week, also urged the space agencies to study and coordinate international lunar infrastructures and assets, such as telecommunication, navigation, logistics.

"We specifically recommend coordination of international efforts for the establishment of "standards" to facilitate lunar exploitation and settlement" like use of the metric system and common data formats and urged the "establishment of a standard lunar geodetic network."

India will undertake its unmanned moon mission 'Chandrayan-1' by 2006-7, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Chairman Madhavan Nair had said at the conference. It would be followed by two robotic missions.

re: "We specifically recommend co-ordination of international efforts for the establishment of 'standards' to facilitate lunar exploitation and settlement, like use of the metric system..."


REPLY: Why stop at that? I say - why not implement all European Union Directives and Regulations on the Moon immediately, especially the Units of Measurements Regulations 1994 - and while we're about it, why not make it the first place to ratify the European Constitution as well? The euro should be the currency and the Moon flag should be 12 yellow...

REPLY: Why stop at that? I say - why not implement all European Union Directives and Regulations on the Moon immediately, especially the Units of Measurements Regulations 1994 - and while we're about it, why not make it the first place to ratify the European Constitution as well? The euro should be the currency and the Moon flag should be 12 yellow...



Because the desire to have the moon metric is coming from all the earth's people. Only some are from the EU. Metric is a world-wide, universal system, not just European. So why would those metric users not associated with the EU want EU laws and regulations on the moon?

I guees if I was in your shoes and realised that metric is wanted by everybody in the world and the world is making an effort to see its use expanded into space I'd be ANGERED too. Yes be angry because it shows us how you feel about being a minority that no one is paying attention to.

Too bad imperial users beat the metric users to the moon by several decades.

Too bad imperial users beat the metric users to the moon by several decades.



Too bad the man who put the first man on the moon, Werner von Braun, a German, publically stated he loathed USC and never used it. He designed all of the rockets in metric. Of course the designs were translated by the US to manufacture them, but the fact remains the concept was metric.

And after von Braun died, NASA went "imperial" and made nothing but errors and junk. If they wanted too, they could not return to the moon.

Nothing works right unless it is first conceived in metric.

Public reminder.

This is the poster who once declared that Saddam Hussein adopted the euro.

Oh, and that 12" records are metric and American baseball and Soccer is metric.

Just thought I'd leave that little reminder whilst he's busy preparing something else to cut and paste rather than using his own initiative.

(Oh, he also said - right here in this thread - that everyone wants metric)

Reminder (2) - You'll note that when he starts to give up (*sigh* ***AGAIN**) he'll start changing his name in a bizzare mad-man fashion.

I'm still waiting for him to go the whole hog and present his mallet

"This is the poster who once declared that Saddam Hussein adopted the euro."

And now he declares that Iran have done the same.

So just remember - when you book your relaxing peaceful holiday to Iran just remember to change your trusty sterling into euros!

The choice of the international metric system (SI) as a basis for measurements for multinational interplanetary missions is academic.

There is no alternative.

The SI is now THE only interntionally agreed system that would be fit for purpose.

The time will have come, when mankind returns to the moon, to leave behind the unfortunate habits of terrestrial maritime and aviation, using feet for altitude, nautical miles for distance and knots for speed. It's very unlikely that the space community will extend such outdated conventions beyond Earth.

Re: Scientists want establishment of metric system on moon December 12 2004, 9:13 AM


"This is the poster who once declared that Saddam Hussein adopted the euro."

And now he declares that Iran have done the same.

So just remember - when you book your relaxing peaceful holiday to Iran just remember to change your rusty sterling into euros!



Because this dimwit likes to twist the facts around, I will clarify.




Saddam sold oil under the "oil for food" programme in euros in late 2000 (and later converted his $10 billion reserve fund at the U.N. to euros). His country still operated on the Iraqi dinar.

Iran still has their own currency, but has sold off most, if not all of its US dollar currency reserves. When it opens its bourse to sell oil, the currency will be euros.

Presently they are accepting only euros for their oil, even though the euro price is based on US dollar bench marks. They may take euros directly or by selling US dollars to those who pay in dollars. They have no choice as the US government FORBIDS anyone from shipping US currency to Iran. Since no bank wants to risk being fined, they are able to circumvent US regulations by dealing in euros.

"The time will have come, when mankind returns to the moon, to leave behind the unfortunate habits of terrestrial maritime and aviation, using feet for altitude, nautical miles for distance and knots for speed. It's very unlikely that the space community will extend such outdated conventions beyond Earth."

You mean use different measures for flying in space to those common in use for flying on Earth?

At what altitude does one "switch" and in what system is that altitude measured?

By that time terrestial measurements will be fully metric and obsolete units will be discarded.

The remnants of imperial are all destined to be discarded. They all presently exist on limited time.

"The time will have come, when mankind returns to the moon, to leave behind the unfortunate habits of terrestrial maritime and aviation, using feet for altitude, nautical miles for distance and knots for speed. It's very unlikely that the space community will extend such outdated conventions beyond Earth."

You mean use different measures for flying in space to those common in use for flying on Earth?

At what altitude does one "switch" and in what system is that altitude measured?

At what altitude does one "switch" and in what system is that altitude measured?

At 0 m, the point of origin. Since every measurement will be metric there will be no need to switch at any point.

Altitudes will be measured in metres. What else?


Do you have a problem understanding this?

Do you get searched when you try to get on an aeroplane?

If not, leave me with the details of any flights you intend to go on.





So I can avoid them.

<<
The choice of the international metric system (SI) as a basis for measurements for multinational interplanetary missions is academic.

There is no alternative.

The SI is now THE only interntionally agreed system that would be fit for purpose.

The time will have come, when mankind returns to the moon, to leave behind the unfortunate habits of terrestrial maritime and aviation, using feet for altitude, nautical miles for distance and knots for speed. It's very unlikely that the space community will extend such outdated conventions beyond Earth.
>>


Remember that feet are uniformly used throughout the world to measure altitude. No country, even France, uses anything else. So how much sense would it make to use a different system on the moon?
Pro-metrics argue that we must change to metric for the sake of uniformity. In the case of aviation, we have a uniform system throughout the world. So why do people want to change it? Obviously, it is not uniformity they want, but compulsory metric.

Ahh, but Stan, it is quite likely that nautical mile etc units will eventually establish themselves on the moon if we colonise it. So that, using either the sexagesimal, centesimal, or thousand-grade systems (whatever the last one is called) based on the moon's diameter or circumference will yeild new versions of these old units. I see no reason why units that were based on the Earth's dimensions, in no matter how misguided and ill-thoughout way, (i.e. metric) will be accepted by our Moonly cousins centuries hence.

"moonly cousins" lol!

<<No country, even France, uses anything else. So how much sense would it make to use a different system on the moon? >>

France is not as metric as you'd expect (considering metric is French, martin). I'd put Germany as more metric than france.
My DVD's "french bit" states that the DVD's are "5 pouce"

Carlyle: "No it does't"

France is not as metric as you'd expect (considering metric is French, martin). I'd put Germany as more metric than france.
My DVD's "french bit" states that the DVD's are "5 pouce"

Carlyle: "No it does't"


That label may not have been translated or printed in France but by someone in the US. It makes no difference what the label says, the actual manufacturing standard is 120 mm. You can wish it to something all you want. You can call it anything you want, but it is an exact 120 mm. Pure metric!

Just like vinyl records. You refuse to measure them so you don't have to acknowledge their true size of either 300 or 302 mm exactly depending on location of manufacture

Bud: "Remember that feet are uniformly used throughout the world to measure altitude. No country, even France, uses anything else. So how much sense would it make to use a different system on the moon? Pro-metrics argue that we must change to metric for the sake of uniformity. In the case of aviation, we have a uniform system throughout the world. So why do people want to change it? Obviously, it is not uniformity they want, but compulsory metric."

Stan: In the case of aviation an unsatisfactory unit has become standardised, for that purpose only, due to historical reasons that have little to do with logic. The foot is totally incompatible with metric (1 ft = 0.3048 m) There is nothing uniform about using the foot for altitude and metres for everything else.

Bryan: "Ahh, but Stan, it is quite likely that nautical mile etc units will eventually establish themselves on the moon if we colonise it. So that, using either the sexagesimal, centesimal, or thousand-grade systems (whatever the last one is called) based on the moon's diameter or circumference will yeild new versions of these old units. I see no reason why units that were based on the Earth's dimensions, in no matter how misguided and ill-thoughout way, (i.e. metric) will be accepted by our Moonly cousins centuries hence."

Stan: You really ought to study the history of the metric system and acquaint your self with the facts behind its modern incarnation. The metre may have been defined originally as one ten millionth of the distance from Earths pole to the equator, but metrologists have left that behind long ago. The modern version is linked to the speed of light and the second, which will be just as valid on the Moon as here.

<<
Stan: In the case of aviation an unsatisfactory unit has become standardised, for that purpose only, due to historical reasons that have little to do with logic. The foot is totally incompatible with metric (1 ft = 0.3048 m) There is nothing uniform about using the foot for altitude and metres for everything else.
>>

Yes there is, provided that feet are used uniformly for aviation. The point is that everyone uses a standard unit for one purpose. It causes no problems to pilots if feet are used for aviation and metres for other things. Since there are no problems, there is no reason to change.

I know about metric; cheers Stan. My point which you have not denied is that speciality units will ALWAYS be created for different circumstances..... and if we ever do colonise the moon, it is highly probably that units linked to the moon's size- i.e. nautical mile- will come into existance. That is just reality, I'm afraid. For all of the huffing and puffing of metricists, speciality units continue to thrive and continue to be created for use even alongside metric.

Nutbag: "That label may not have been translated or printed in France but by someone in the US. It makes no difference what the label says, the actual manufacturing standard is 120 mm."

Printed in china for a japanese product aimed at the french - sorry mate - get use to it! INTERNATIONAL!

Nutbag: "You can wish it to something all you want. You can call it anything you want, but it is an exact 120 mm. Pure metric!"

How accurate is your equipment?

[Nutbag holds up his mallet]

NO NO NO! Your ruler!!!

Nutbag: "Just like vinyl records. You refuse to measure them so you don't have to acknowledge their true size of either 300 or 302 mm exactly depending on location of manufacture"

Give up mate - you lost this ages ago! Ask any prometric on this board if you don't believe me. Go on!!
Tis a bit like your 500gramme british pound - "not of this world" !!!

Right... Back to the proper pro-metrics....

Stan: "In the case of aviation an unsatisfactory unit has become standardised, for that purpose only, due to historical reasons that have little to do with logic. The foot is totally incompatible with metric (1 ft = 0.3048 m) There is nothing uniform about using the foot for altitude and metres for everything else."

Erm - how many thousands of aircraft are currently succesfully airbourne?

"IT WORKS"

Bud wrote

<<
it is highly probably that units linked to the moon's size- i.e. nautical mile- will come into existance.
>>

Bud - all of SI apart from the kilogramme is now defined in terms such that a competant physicist anywhere in the world can reconstruct a set of reference measures. The only reason that the kilogramme has not yet been defined in terms of natural phenomena is that nobody can reproducably produce a mas of 1kg with a reproducablility of 1 part in 100 million using purely naturally occuring phenomena

<<
Bud wrote....
>>

Just for the record, I did not write that, although I am inclined to agree with it. Perhaps on the moon, if it is very sparsely populated, a longer unit of length will be used. If the people there eat less and are smaller, a smaller unit of mass will be used. My point is that the size of units should be decided on the basis of convenience to those who use them, not on the basis of some arbitrary natural phenomena.

On the other hand, if the Moon is inhabited by people from Earth, they will take the Earth's units of measure with them. This has happened in the past - the US's system of measure was imported lock stock and barrel from Europe and in particular from England.

But as I said, massive modifications will occur.

So by what year will we all be living on the moon?

;-)

I know about metric; cheers Stan. My point which you have not denied is that speciality units will ALWAYS be created for different circumstances..... and if we ever do colonise the moon, it is highly probably that units linked to the moon's size- i.e. nautical mile- will come into existance. That is just reality, I'm afraid. For all of the huffing and puffing of metricists, speciality units continue to thrive and continue to be created for use even alongside metric.



Absolutely wrong! If the moon is ever populated, it will first be populated by scientists and researchers. They will have with them a copy of the kilogram mass standard and any device needed to provide an accurate represnetation of the base units. As is done on earth via the various national standards labs. The moon outpost will be in sync with the BIPM to assure the SI units are exactly the same on the moon as they are on the earth. It will be SI and only SI that will be used on the moon.

There will never be a need for any of the old units and they will never be imported. The BIPM will see to that.

"Absolutely wrong!"

There you go, Bryan - *THAT* told you eh?

So you'll have to change your opinion now, mate!

Yep, lol.

Personally I don't see how men can be chained by these authorities; our inherent anarchy will mean variant units WILL arise. I would bet my life on it (but I'll be long dead by then anyway)

Has anyone realised - there are absolutely NO PUBS on the moon.

Thus - there is no point going there

Ametrica said:

>There will never be a need for any of the old units and they will never be imported. The BIPM will see to that.
-------------------------------------

That's funny! Being that scientist here in the US have a tendency to not really care if they use metric or not I doubt that's true. Sure, for scientific things they are more likely to use SI, but not exclusively. In conversation those same scientist describe things in inches and ounces and so forth. No, for small amounts they choose the gramme, millimetre and millilitre, but they'll just as soon use gallon, inch, feet, and pound for larger sizes. Most (but not all) doctor's offices I've been in couldn't take weight in kilogrammes even if they wanted, they only have pound scales usually. This observation mostly comes from scientist that teach at the University level, including people that are not native born US citizens and probably came form a metric country. I'd prefer to see them use metric, but they don't. I'd bet that our scientist, if they started a moon colony would bring a mixture of customary and metric with them; just like what's used here. They'd prepare food by the pound and drink there drinks by the ounce (sorry very few pints here! Nice neat 12, 16, 20, 24 and 32 fl. oz. drinks seem to be our norm.) Terms like inch and feet would surly persist in describing things, even if they don't use them for 'official business'. All the above is of course assuming that this moon colony was started by the Americans. If someone else goes for it, then maybe this wouldn't happen and the moon colony could be saved from that mess!

Just an Idea...

Could occassional posters not post as "anonymous"?

If they feel that they don't want to use their real name then a nick-name would do.

The only reason I suggest this is that I almost ignored the "anonymous" post above thinking it was another incoherent post by that strange woman who always has to resort to saying "nazi" and making things up irrationally.

In fact it was a balanced post - very coherent - and well worth the read. And not even advertly pro-imperial or pro-metric.

Just thought I'd put in my 2-pence worth there!

That's funny! Being that scientist here in the US have a tendency to...............

By the time the world returns to the moon, the US will have become a poverty stricken bankrupt remnant of its present self. There will be no Americans there! Dollar hegemony is fizzling out and without it the US can not finance itself. With the huge amount of money the US owes the world, it will be a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time, if ever, before the US goes anywhere.

I can sense the glee in the above post. Licking your lips with the prospect of American collapse- truly pathetic.

"Has anyone realised - there are absolutely NO PUBS on the moon.

Thus - there is no point going there"

A bit like Cardiff then???? :-) :-) :-)

ametrica

That's funny! Being that scientist here in the US have a tendency to...............

By the time the world returns to the moon, the US will have become a poverty stricken bankrupt remnant of its present self. There will be no Americans there! Dollar hegemony is fizzling out and without it the US can not finance itself. With the huge amount of money the US owes the world, it will be a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time, if ever, before the US goes anywhere.

---------------------------------------

Nice counterargument! Bashing and insulting instead of facts and observations! What a great way to win someone over to your side of the argument. If you are Euric, this sounds about like one of the last postings you made to the USMA list-serve before everyone requested that you be banned from it. Keep up the good work! Your a great laugh!

....now I'd better go convert all my dollars to Euro before they're worthless.

Welcome to Euric's world, Jeff.
Although you seem to know him already.




<<
Absolutely wrong! If the moon is ever populated, it will first be populated by scientists and researchers. They will have with them a copy of the kilogram mass standard and any device needed to provide an accurate represnetation of the base units.
>>
Yes, I am sure those astronauts on the International Space Station right now have a copy of the kilogram mass, a supply of cesium-133 atoms, and laser detection devices with them so that they can make sure they reproduce the units correctly.


Will they also take the speed of the moon into account when defining the metre? If they define it the same way we have, their metre will look a bit longer to us.

Nice counterargument! Bashing and insulting instead of facts and observations! What a great way to win someone over to your side of the argument.



Who is trying to win anyone over? These people are so set in their ways and would never change. That is why they are here and why this site exists. They aren't here to be convinced that metric is better, they are here to find a shoulder to cry on because metric has taken over. Or are you too ignorant to see that? The only recourse is to bring to their attention that they are fighting a losing battle because their number one supporter is running into problems with paying its bills.

What you consider "bashing and insulting" is pointing out that the last supporter of non-metric is over-extended financially and is on the verge of the biggest economic crash in the history of the world. People like you don't want to be reminded that your high and mighty living standard is about to come to an end.

The people here will agree with you whole heartedly because they know that the only chance for imperial to survive in the world is through the efforts of the US. When the US goes, then support for imperial will end. Something the supporters of imperial can't even imagine. Too very painful for them. But they know the handwriting is on the wall, even if they put blinders on so as not to see it.


Instead of worrying about my comments, you would be better off figuring out how you are going to protect yourself when your world crashes down around you. Watch out chicken little, the sky really is falling!

Bryan: "I can sense the glee in the above post. Licking your lips with the prospect of American collapse- truly pathetic."

Its also based upon an appalling understanding of basic economics! The risk - if any - is from a wholly different area!




Beranger: "A bit like Cardiff then???? :-) :-) :-)"

Surely a joke? Cardiff is currently number one net weekend inward migration city/town in the UK and Ireland. And that's *NOT* for the shopping!



Jeff Davis: "Nice counterargument! Bashing and insulting instead of facts and observations! What a great way to win someone over to your side of the argument. If you are Euric, this sounds about like one of the last postings you made to the USMA list-serve before everyone requested that you be banned from it. Keep up the good work! Your a great laugh!
....now I'd better go convert all my dollars to Euro before they're worthless."

LOL!! Yes - this is the one and only (thank God) "Euric" - nice to hear that he gets around!

BTW - doesn't he get personal? Quote: "because their number one supporter is running into problems with paying its bills.". I think he's referring to me there, bless him. I'm between contracts for the moment and thus is gloating on the hope that I'm out of pocket and can no longer afford to live. In fact this message is being typed on the same 386 model as he owns and I suspect we now share a similar taste in food - ie "pot noodles" !! Unfortunately for him he knows absolutely nothing about me, oh- except that I recently got married so he's used my lovely wife - who's never ever posted here - as material for his esteemed work! God imagine how scarey it would be if he did know more about me?!? [Shudder] Anyway - thanks for referring me as BWMA's number one supporter! Although others here might now be lealous of me I do take that as your first compliment!!!!!!



So its absolutely GREAT to hear that he's even been chucked off the USMA site!

Be honest with us Mr MultiPostName - do you have any friends? Can you name an organisation that appears to back your viewpoints and opinions?

And no - that organisation was banned back in the 1940's !! Try again!!

BTW folks - note in his last post the way that he appears to be moving toward a climactic moment (no need to visualise that Berenger!)

Go back and re-read his post but this time try to get the voice of "Ming the Merciless" from Flash Gordon in your voice and try to get it to lift and lift as the post goes on.

Add the following line to the end of it if it helps generate the ambience I'm trying to convey:-

".....and the world will be MINE - ALL MINE!!!"

Typo:

Read "Go back and re-read his post but this time try to get the voice of "Ming the Merciless" from Flash Gordon in your voice and try to get it to lift and lift as the post goes on."

as

"Go back and re-read his post but this time try to get the voice of "Ming the Merciless" from Flash Gordon in your *MIND* and try to get it to lift and lift as the post goes on."

Beranger: "A bit like Cardiff then???? :-) :-) :-)"

Sorry Steve, couldn't resist it!!!

But try getting into a pub near Cardiff Arms Park (National/Millennium Stadium) on Wales v Scotland day if you're not a regular....

for when you next do it:

grab a taxi - and ask him to take you to mermaid quay.

It's about 5 miles away and the pubs are great!

P.s. The missus is talking about treating me to seeing cymru vs ar alban in murrayfield next march!

Steve

Yeah, have to agree.

I've not been to Cardiff for a few years, but brother's current tactic is to go to Mermaid Quay prematch & get 1st train out after. Gimme a shout if you need M/field tickets (No promises though!)

Oh, and it's "Alba", not "Alban" by the way. When will the Celtic nations agree on spelling? :-)

<<
Who is trying to win anyone over? These people are so set in their ways and would never change. That is why they are here and why this site exists. They aren't here to be convinced that metric is better,
>>
Ametrica, I'm going to be absolutely serious for a second. Of course we aren't here to be convinced that metric is better. Are you here to be convinced that imperial is better? We are not here to be convinced, nor are we here to try and convince anyone. We are here to discuss, to exchange facts, and to learn. If someone agrees with you, great. If not, accept the differences and move on.
I know you're going to reply that since metric is better than imperial, you can justify yourself in refusing to consider what we say and insist that we consider what you say. But it just doesn't work like that.

To everyone else: I don't know why I am typing this. I know it isn't going to help. But I have nothing better to do now that exams are over, so what the heck.

<<I've not been to Cardiff for a few years, but brother's current tactic is to go to Mermaid Quay prematch & get 1st train out after. >>>

SACRILEDGE! Book a Travel Inn and make the most of a wonderful city!
If you're planning to visit in the future then let me know and I'll tell you which pubs I recommend and also an absolutely FABULOUS French restaurant who do the best steak outside the USA*

*- probably



<<Oh, and it's "Alba", not "Alban" by the way. When will the Celtic nations agree on spelling>>

It has to be alban otherwise if a word with a vowel-start follows 'alba' then the language loses its flow and poetry!




Bud says: "Ametrica, I'm going to be absolutely serious for a second. Of course we aren't here to be convinced that metric is better. Are you here to be convinced that imperial is better? We are not here to be convinced, nor are we here to try and convince anyone. We are here to discuss, to exchange facts, and to learn. If someone agrees with you, great. If not, accept the differences and move on.
I know you're going to reply that since metric is better than imperial, you can justify yourself in refusing to consider what we say and insist that we consider what you say. But it just doesn't work like that.
To everyone else: I don't know why I am typing this. I know it isn't going to help. But I have nothing better to do now that exams are over, so what the heck. "

I'm pretty much convinced that you won't get through to him.
If he's been kicked off the USMA website for crass, stupid, obnoxious and bigotted behaviour then I'd be pretty sure that an American who supports the imperial system (or USC) isn't going to make him see sence.

However, and I cannot speak for you on this, I *DO* enjoy trying.



P.S. I think he's on one of those "let the dust settle quiet moments" that I predicted would happen