Is there a loop hole in the law regardnig markings.

Its just that I've seen a lot of signs like the above, ie instead of X.XXp per pound you get 3 lbs for X.XXp.

Anyone know the reason for this?

Try buying one pound and see what happens.
I am sure they will give you the same price per pound. They are probably just trying to encourage you to buy more.

Pick out the amount you want and take the products to the cashier. Watch himor her weigh the products in front of you. Look at the number that appears on the scale display. Then after you pay for the item and you are given the receipt, then look at how it is priced on the receipt.

That is the true indication of how the store sold it to you. No matter what they put on a sign, how they sell it to you is what appears on the machines and on the receipts.



As for the law and advertising, it requires a declaration in kilograms and a sale in kilograms. Pricing in non-metric units is optional as a supplemental indicator until 2010 when it will be illegal to display non-metric units. Since it is not legal to sell in non-metric units the form the store may choose to use when displaying supplemental indications is not covered by law. Thus the form you see as a supplemental indication is acceptable as long as the kilogram price is present and prominent.

Thus no loop hole exists.

Erin

Check the current Price Marking Order.

Then come back to us.

There may be a slight loophole for advertising purposes..... I've done my best to point the pro-imp side toward it, but no-one seems to be picking it up.

Look at the posts I made a few months ago re gallon prices at petrol stations.......

Beranger,

I found these...it says nothing about imperial measures. All refer to the PMO of 2004. Maybe earlier versions were different.

http://www.martineau-johnson.co.uk/expertise/commerce/pricemarking.htm

The standard units of quantity to be used for such purposes are one kilogram, litre, metre, square metre or cubic metre and the unit “one” for goods sold by number. However, there are some exceptions where different units of quantity are permitted - e.g. herbs - 10g; make-up products - 10g or 10ml (except where sold by number); and cosmetic products other than make-up - 100g or 10ml.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:jc5-MyktnyoJ:www.lotsa.org.uk/business/price_marking.htm+%22price+marking+order%22+kilogram&hl=en&lr=&strip=1

What if I sell goods that are sold by quantity?

Goods that are measured out at the time of sale require a unit price. A unit price is the final price which must be paid for a unit of a product, such as a kilogram or metre. For some specific goods which are generally sold in small amounts, the unit will be 100 g or ml (see the attached list below which is an extract from Schedule 1 of the Price Marking Order). In addition, some goods are allowed to be sold by number, such as apples, and the unit price will be the price for each item.

For further information on types of goods that must be sold by quantity, goods that must be sold in certain amounts and goods which must carry certain quantity markings, see the advice contained within the weights and measures section in the Business index.

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=6584&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=1522

Units to be used for unit pricing purposes

3. The standard units of quantity to be used for unit pricing purposes are one kilogram, litre, metre, square metre or cubic metre and the unit ‘one’ for goods sold by number. Some exceptions are allowed and the Order contains a list of products that must be unit priced using different units of quantity - usually 100g or 100ml. See Appendix 2. Similar products should use the same unit for unit pricing purposes to allow consumers to readily compare prices between them. In exceptional circumstances this may mean that a product required to show a unit price per kilogram, for example, could usefully show a further price per 100g.



I checked a few other sites and saw no references to advertizing in units other then metric. In my opinion, since the pound is NOT legal for use in trade since 2000-01-01 no specific rules exist governing its way of being displayed. Thus, in my opinion a shop who chooses to use the pound as a supplemental unit may in fact use it in an odd way without fear of violating a law.

The rule governing the display of pound prices (not legal for trade) would have to fall under rules governing supplemental units. Those don't seem to appear in any of the references I have encountered.

Maybe Steve can do the research.

""""Try buying one pound and see what happens.
I am sure they will give you the same price per pound. They are probably just trying to encourage you to buy more.""""


Steve will not take your advice. Want to guess why?

Well, you won't so I'll tell you! And if I'm wrong, someone can tell me!


When Steve takes his radishes to the cashier, he/she will place them on the scale. The scale will display a mass in grams or kilograms. The unit price per kilogram or per 100 g is already programmed in. The cashier will enter the proper code for the radishes and the computer will calculate the price based on the unit price in kilograms. After the cashier completes the ringing up of the other products purchased, he/she will tell Steve what he owes. After he finishes paying and gets his change, the cashier will present Steve with his receipt. The receipt will show the unit price per 100 g or per kilogram, the mass in grams or kilograms and the total cost. No reference to pounds will appear. Remember pounds are not legal for use in trade in the UK since 2000-01-01.

Steve knows this routine and knows this is true. He doesn't want to admit that this is the way it is done because he already told us (if this is at Tesco) that the store reverted to pound pricing. Telling you what is on the receipt would be an admission that he lied and that would not look good for Steve since he already accused others of lieing.

I wish he would take your advice though as I would like to see how he tries to explains what is printed on the receipt. Too bad there isn't a way for Steve to scan the receipt and post it here as a jpg, so we can all download it and view it.

Now the price of 1.99 £ for 3 pounds comes out to about 1.46 £/kg. Wouldn't it be interesting if the actual price was 1.49 £/kg?

The loophole in the law is the fact that until 2010 imperial is allowed as well as metric. This inevitably leads to confusion and all kinds of strange pricing such as the above. Enforcement of the current regulations (for ordinary traders - not those making a political stand) has been virtually non-existant, since the arguments over which measurements are more prominent etc etc are a waste of everyones time.

After 2010 there are no more loopholes, the law will be crystal clear and more easily enforced.

re (Beranger): "Erin. Check the current Price Marking Order [re: 3lb. radishes for £1.99]. Then come back to us".


REPLY:

Who is 'us'?

What will 'us' do about the information received?

Andy wrote

<<
The loophole in the law is the fact that until 2010 imperial is allowed as well as metric.
>>

Andy, the law permits imperial to be used as a *supplementary* measure alongside metric units until 2010. (ie the metric unit is the legal one and the imperial is "for information only"). After that date it will be illegal to use imperial units for trade apart from certain specific instances (eg pints of beer)

How can they make it illegal to provide information? I can't see that working.

And what planet it Erin on? All this talk about the print on receipts and things going on behind the scenes! What's that got to do with the intent of the initial question?

Berenger - are you saying that although there maybe some legal definition about selling something priced by the <unit> there is nothing illegal to sell <certain quantity regardless of metric or imperial> by the price (since 'price' is effectively the unit in this case, which of course is monetary)

re (Arnold): "How can they make it illegal to provide information?"


REPLY: New Labour's already created 1,018 new crimes in the past eight years. You ain't seen nothing yet!

P.S. It's illegal in many cases to tell people that a food or a product is 'Made in Britain'. That's information you're simply not allowed to provide! You have to say it's 'Made in Europe'. See what I mean! (ha ha)

Ber, just tell us already, damnit. :P
Do you mean placing them one over the other, so that we could have the Imperial price top? I have seen signs with one on top of the other, with the Imperial figure written bigger. I assume this is legal.

re (Bryan Parry) on 'Supplementary Indications':

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REPLY: Good question, Bryan, see where these extracts from the judgment of Lord Justice Laws gets you!

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now I will turn to the Metrication Directive, which was later amended by Council Directive 89/617/EEC made on 27 November 1989, and the amendments are important. But it is first necessary to give the directive’s relevant provisions in their original form as follows.

"Article 1

The legal units of measurement within the meaning of this Directive which must be used for expressing quantities shall be:

(a) those listed in Chapter I of the Annex;

(b) those listed in Chapter II of the Annex, until a date to be fixed by the Member States; this date may not be later than 31 December 1985;

those listed in Chapter III of the Annex only in those Member States where they were authorized on 21 April 1973 and until a date to be fixed by those Member States; this date may not be later than a date to be set by the Council before 31 December 1989 on the basis of Article 100 of the Treaty.


Article 3

1. For the purposes of this Directive ‘supplementary indication’ means one or more indications of quantity expressed in units of measurement not contained in Chapter I of the Annex accompanying an indication of quantity expressed in a unit contained in that Chapter.

2. The use of supplementary indications shall be authorised until 31 December 1989.

3. However, Member States may require that measuring instruments bear indications of quantity in a single legal unit of measurement.

4. The indication expressed in a unit of measurement listed in Chapter I shall predominate. In particular, the indications expressed in units of measurement not listed in Chapter I shall be expressed in characters no larger than those of the corresponding indication in units listed in Chapter I.

5. The use of supplementary indications may be extended* after 31 December 1989."



[* So long as we, the unelected Commissioners of the Euro-State, give you over there in the British Ilses our permission to do so - ed.]

Tony, you said:

"Who is 'us'?

What will 'us' do about the information received?"

Response - no matter what disagreements you an Berenger have you both post good points and counter-points to each other. Erin (real name John or euric or whatever) simply posts rubbish time and time again - hence no rational debate between him and anyone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Barenger, but the "us" in "get back to us" was simply you saying for him to try and get some facts and present them to "us" where "us" means pro-metric, pro-choice and pro-imp.

You see, there are 4 groups:

The pro - metrics, those who want to see metric all the time
Pro imperials, those who want to see imperial all the time
Pro choice, those who want to see imperial and metric as the market dictates
and
Erin

Erin

Yes, I was referring to the 2004 PMO. Why not look at the order itself rather than websites about it?

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/cgi-bin/htm_hl.pl?DB=hmso-new&STEMMER=en&WORDS=price+marking+order+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040102.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match

Bryan

I only say there may be a slight loophole for advertising purposes. I'm not sure that there is - but as far as I am aware, it has not been tested in court.

I'm not going to do BWMA's job for them. I think I've done enough by pointing out that an argument can be made.

And no, it's not about showing imperial larger than metric - see article 7(4) of the order. The potential loophole refers to advertisements, not to unit prices

Well, it seems rather silly that you would keep such knowledge from us. Let's face it, Imperial is doomed, so why not give us something anyway :) Maybe, because, like the Masons, your secret knowledge is not so earth-shattering afterall, hmm.

Bryan

To be honest, it's not that earth shattering, and I'm definitely not a mason!

I really do not think that imperial is doomed. I still refer to 10 bob bits, pounds, pints & yards. I cannot agree with Tony's assertion that these terms will be banned, and still get laughed at at my local butchers when I persist in asking for mince by the "pound" on the metric scales (that is really getting too close to admitting my profession)

<<<and still get laughed at at my local butchers when I persist in asking for mince by the "pound" on the metric scales>>>

So why do you ask for mince by the pound?

Maybe that's how he wants to do it?

<<<Maybe that's how he wants to do it?>>>

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with someone asking for a pound of mince! It just surprised me because Berenger is on the pro-metric side.

I'm what's known as "right wing".

Does this prevent me from wanting blood sports banned?

Open your mind a bit more Andy ;-)


--
Perhaps young Berenger's a bit more 'pro-choice' than even the canny scotsman is willing to let on. Indeed there is nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate either.

Dunno why! Habit I suppose. Sometimes I ask in imperial, sometimes in metric - whichever one is more convenient to my needs at the time.

I hear what many of you have said about supplementary pricing and the issue of banning and enforcement etc.

I feel I must point out what is unfortunately the harsh reality of the situation.

It is a fact that whilst dual measures persist retailers will cynically exploit it to manipulate customer perception of value for money and seek to obscure comparisons with their rivals.

As an example, Tesco have recently started selling packs of meat at specially reduced prices. Those price reductions were given per kg (with the letters 'per kg' very small) whilst they continued to display price per pound as the selling price. Obviously a price per kg reduction is going to look better than price per lb. What is more the imperial unit prices were so bold that they could easily be mistaken for the pack price.

The only way to put an end to this nonsense and to stop people being ripped off is for retailers to made to display unit prices in metric only.

Is it just me, or have Tesco moved away from their "imperial" tendencies?

I was in one the other day, and metric seemed to be marked in larger fonts than imperial on nearly everything....

Is it just me, or have Tesco moved away from their "imperial" tendencies?

I was in one the other day, and metric seemed to be marked in larger fonts than imperial on nearly everything....



Oh no, you must be mistaken. The resident Tesco expert has insisted Tesco has completely reverted to imperial. This expert even claimed Tesco was making big profits because they reverted from "Foreign" measures to imperial. Of course who can believe such an expert when he fails to admit the truth about how products are actually priced at the point of sale, the cash register.

I'm waiting for the Tesco expert to inform us that his neighbourhood Tesco is still holding tight to imperial and metric doesn't appear on any product.

Why not follow the following sequence:

Visit www.timesonline.co.UK

Select the "Sunday Times Newspaper" Option (near the bottom of the left-hand column).

Read the fourth story in the list of "Sunday Times" stories that appear.

(The direct link does not work)

<<<It is a fact that whilst dual measures persist retailers will cynically exploit it to manipulate customer perception of value for money and seek to obscure comparisons with their rivals.>>>

You've hit the nail on the head there.

<<<Is it just me, or have Tesco moved away from their "imperial" tendencies?>>>

It was only a matter of time.

My local Tesco (about 3 miles away) shows imperial on the shelf edge as larger than metric.

"Offer" prices are shown large and are in imperial only.

The meat and deli counter use both imperial and metric but the "offer" signs are in imperial.

This was my Tesco last night.

"""Why not follow the following sequence:

Visit www.timesonline.co.UK

Select the "Sunday Times Newspaper" Option (near the bottom of the left-hand column).

Read the fourth story in the list of "Sunday Times" stories that appear.

(The direct link does not work) """"


Martin,

You may have to copy the article here. The direct link may not work because the article is only available to paying customers. Even though I have a username and password for the site, that particular article gets me the following message:



You have requested a page that is only available to Times Online subscribers. To see the page you have selected, you will have to register to one of the packages below. Please select the package you wish to subscribe to or click here for further details on the different products available.

Select Name Cost

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This is the Sunday Times article that I was referring to

<<
Tesco misleads shoppers on salt and sugar labels
Richard Fletcher



TESCO, Britain’s biggest supermarket chain, is being accused of misleading customers over the nutritional and health benefits of a series of products in stores throughout the country.
Trading standards officers have found more than 20 alleged failings in an eight-week period after testing Tesco products. Some that boasted specific health benefits were found to contain excessive amounts of sugar or salt or significantly less vitamins than claimed.



In one case, trading standards have launched a formal investigation into misleading labelling on a children’s drink and may prosecute the supermarket. Among the findings of trading standards officers were:


Own-brand Tesco Kids pizza labelled as having “controlled sodium” — suggesting low salt — which contained 10 times the amount of salt allowed for “reduced salt” foods.

An own-brand cereal with “controlled sugar” that was almost one-third sugar.

A Tesco juice drink labelled as having “added vitamin C” that, when tested, was found to contain only a tiny amount of the vitamin — and far less than that advertised.

Frozen lamb mince contaminated with traces of pork.

Fresh leaf spinach with almost double the permitted level of nitrates.

A chicken sandwich contained 57% more salt than stated on its label.
The disclosures will further damage consumer confidence in the food industry and the accuracy of labelling, following the huge recall this month of products contaminated by Sudan 1, a carcinogenic dye.

Graham MacGregor, chairman of Consensus Action on Salt and Health, said it was vital accurate information was provided on supermarket labels.
>>

So you get free pork when you buy Lamb?

Sounds like a deal to me!

Not if you are Jewish or Moslem

Or a vegetarian who includes "lamb" on her list of meats that are allowed to be eaten (inder Tuna, Salmon, Cod, etc)

If you know what I mean?

'her'? The male is the neutral, so this leads me to believe either you are so far PC it is untrue, or two that you are actually recounting a real person known to you.

Bung that in your pipe and smoke it Herr. Stephen "Sherlock" ;)

I was in the belief that most rabbit-food enthusiasts were female.

What's with the "Sherlock"? I thought most people thought that way. "Greenham Common" springs to mind!

Check Mr Multi-posters post (Erin thingy-wotsit).

He appears to have picked up on Bryan's idea that you are me.

I've called myself a "sleuth" here before for recognising the masquarading of someone called John who has posted under various names.

He's been banned from the USMA, did you know?

<<Is it just me, or have Tesco moved away from their "imperial" tendencies?>>

Just been to Tesco.
Nothing's changed.

"""Just been to Tesco. Nothing's changed."""

Which means the majority of products are labelled only in rounded metric, the deli and cashier scales are metric, the final sale of all products is metric, a remnant advertizement or two is in imperial.

When you wear blinders upon entering Tesco, all you see is the last item listed.

When your only tool is a hammer, after a while everything starts to look like a nail.
Why did Tesco chose to copy the awswich architecture?

Erin - where are you getting your information from ?

When Steve gets his speeding ticket the radar trap scale will display a velocity in metres or kilometres (inside the computer). The unit speed per hour is already programmed in. The police officer will enter the proper code for the speeding fine and the computer will calculate the fine based on the unit speed in kilometres. After the officer completes the speed, he/she will tell Steve what fine he owes. After he finishes paying and gets his points, the cashier will present Steve with his license.

Steve knows this routine and knows this is true. He doesn't want to admit that this is the way it is done because he already told us that all the signs are in mph units. Telling you what is on the compter program in the radar trap would be an admission that he lied and that would not look good for Steve since he already accused others of lieing.

I wish he would take your advice though as I would like to see how he tries to explains what is programmed into the speed trap computer or in a speeding camera. Too bad there isn't a way for Steve to scan the fine and post it here as a jpg, so we can all download it and view it.

Now the fine of £60 for 3O mph came out to about 48 km/h. Wouldn't it be interesting if the actual speed was 50km/h?

Of course Steve would know this because when he tried to drive his car out of Tesco it will have been weighed in kg by the cashier and as she packed his car into a bag she would have given him a really metric receipt which he would need to look at to enjoy driving his car.

Am I mad or what?

"""Am I mad or what?"""


I would say you are jealous and upset that your economy is so metric. You can't stand the constant exposure. It reminds you constantly that imperial is gone for good. Try to get over it!

I think this might be what "Bryan" was talking about re: coming back with a different name and posting rubbish!

I must get my car weighed tonight! lol.

"I would say you are jealous and upset that your economy is so metric. You can't stand the constant exposure. It reminds you constantly that imperial is gone for good. Try to get over it!"

Can you imagine that being said in a slurred really drunk voice?
It fits beautifully - try it.

AJB: "P.S. It's illegal in many cases to tell people that a food or a product is 'Made in Britain'. That's information you're simply not allowed to provide! You have to say it's 'Made in Europe'. See what I mean! (ha ha)"

Stan: I'm not sure what value "Made in Britain" has to a consumer other than to be reassured that the product will be subject to British standards, if that is indeed what it means.

But nowdays industry (mainly of its own choosing) operate on European wide standards. Perhaps asking that goods are stamped "Made in Europe" signifies compliance in that context. Can't see it harms the producer if it opens up the European market.

"""Can't see it harms the producer if it opens up the European market."""

It doesn't harm anyone but the remnant imperialist. Opening up the European Market to an imperialist means assured metrication (which in reality had long ago taken place and is now a moot issue). European norms are only metric. This constantly reminds the imperialist that the chance of a rivival of imperial is nil. Distance the UK from European standards and laws and voila, the chance for an imperial revival becomes possible (at least as far as the remnant imperialist thinks...but no one else).

This is why your imperialists tend to also be followers of the UKIP or other parties trying to remove the UK from the EU. To the imperialist, Made in England will come to mean made in inches, or at least the imperialists will think it will come to that.

Do you see the logic now?

"But nowdays industry (mainly of its own choosing) operate on European wide standards. Perhaps asking that goods are stamped "Made in Europe" signifies compliance in that context. Can't see it harms the producer if it opens up the European market."

I believe that is covered in the "CE" mark.

BTW - I've seen loads of new products with "Made in Britain" or "Made in the UK" on them.