"You wouldn't think a few yards would make much difference"

Charles Kennedy in the very beginning of the TV election broadcast for the most pro-EU of all the major parties.

The EU have no plans to regulate what people SAY

I am in favour of metrication. I say the word 'yard' sometimes.

As in where Dad stores your go-kart?

Those of us who argue for metrication do so for it's own sake not to promote the EU.

Charles Kennedy may well agree that Britain should metricate, even if it is only because of Britains membership of the EU, but he probably makes the same mistake that a lot of people make in thinking that it will take care of itself. It needs positive commitment and active promotion.

<<< As in where Dad stores your go-kart? >>>

No, I have been known to use the word yard when talking about football (which I do quite a lot)

<<<It needs positive commitment and active promotion.>>>

Organisations such as the BBC should promote metric (which they do, albeit a bit half-heartedly)

But I don't agree that a politician shouldn't use imperial like in this case. When everything around us is metric people will naturally start 'talking' metric. No pressure needs to be used.

"Charles Kennedy may well agree that Britain should metricate..."


REPLY: But - by deliberately using yards rather than metres (all the words he used would have been scripted) - he showed that he's a crafty populist when it comes to elections.

Wasn't he that bloke whose wife had a 6lb. 9oz. baby the other day?

<< Organisations such as the BBC should promote metric (which they do, albeit a bit half-heartedly) >>

I can assure you Andy they don't. The BBC have no policy or commitment to promote the metric system. If you don't believe me try asking them.

<< ... When everything around us is metric people will naturally start 'talking' metric. No pressure needs to be used. >>

Maybe but how do you envisage this coming about? We won't get this while the media talk imperial and traders describe products in imperial measures etc. They only do that because the punters aren't all metric so where is the responsibilty? Who has to make the first move?

Tony Bennett: "... he showed that he's a crafty populist when it comes to elections."

Stan: All campaigning politicians are crafty populist when it comes to elections.

"""Wasn't he that bloke whose wife had a 6lb. 9oz. baby the other day?"""


No! The baby had a mass of 3 kg. You can verify this by going to the hospital and checking the hospital records. You will notice that all hospital records keep only metric data. While there, ask the nurse to show you the scale that was used to weigh the baby. you will notice it only displays kilogramsa.

So what you are referring to is a translation, an afterthought. Some person on the hospital staff had to take valuable time away from a sick patient to needlessly convert data. Someone could have died in that time. Would it be worth it?

So you feel proud of a number that isn't good enough to be the actual unit on the measuring device or to appear on the official record. I'm proud of the fact that the hospital choses the best system (SI) of measurement when lives are important.

<<
Organisations such as the BBC should promote metric (which they do, albeit a bit half-heartedly)
>>

Andy, are you suggesting that the news media should set aside objectivity and actively take sides on controversial issues?
If they do this, they will lose their reputation as a news agency. The best news agencies give people facts and let them interpret them. The lower quality ones attempt to manipulate people's minds by only giving them one side of the story.

Bud wrote

<<
Andy, are you suggesting that the news media should set aside objectivity and actively take sides on controversial issues?
If they do this, they will lose their reputation as a news agency. The best news agencies give people facts and let them interpret them. The lower quality ones attempt to manipulate people's minds by only giving them one side of the story.
>>

I agree. Why then does certain parts of the UK press persist in using Fahrenheit when the Met Office publishes its data in Celsius?

<<<But - by deliberately using yards rather than metres (all the words he used would have been scripted) - he showed that he's a crafty populist when it comes to elections.>>>

I am quite sure he didn't *deliberately* use yards! He could just as easily have said 'metres' and 99.9% of the population would never have even picked up on it.

<<<I can assure you Andy they don't. The BBC have no policy or commitment to promote the metric system.>>>

OK, I think I must have fallen for the conspiracy theories of the imperial supporters!

<<<Maybe but how do you envisage this coming about? We won't get this while the media talk imperial and traders describe products in imperial measures etc. They only do that because the punters aren't all metric so where is the responsibilty? Who has to make the first move?>>>

Thats easy. The Government has to make the first move. They need to phase out completely the use of imperial by traders (which they are doing), and convert road signs to metric (which they are not doing). Then, and only then, will the media, and the people gradually switch to metric.

<<<Andy, are you suggesting that the news media should set aside objectivity and actively take sides on controversial issues?>>>

No - see above

<<<The best news agencies give people facts and let them interpret them. The lower quality ones attempt to manipulate people's minds by only giving them one side of the story.>>>

I agree. The BBC should stay neutral rather than sink to the level of certain newspapers.

<<I agree. Why then does certain parts of the UK press persist in using Fahrenheit when the Met Office publishes its data in Celsius?>>

They 'persist' in using Fahrenheit because there is a call for it.
They also 'persist' on translating news events from the far-east from Arabic to English (/Welsh) because there is a call for it.

Martin, Are you saying that BBC Radio London should have a policy so that events like the lady on the news mentioning "10 degrees celsius, that's 50 degrees fahrenheit" should end with the lady being disciplined for four extra words (spanning just over one second of paid-for airtime)?
Why do you as an individual think that I as an individual should not hear those words (the one's that I prefer)?

I know for a fact that the newslady gets a script that shows both C and F - so in "your" UK who should be chastised? The lady or the scriptwriter?




Andy:"I am quite sure he didn't *deliberately* use yards! He could just as easily have said 'metres' and 99.9% of the population would never have even picked up on it."

The broadcast was slick with CGI stuff etc. It would have been scripted carefully to extract the most warmth of the viewer. I can assure you that in no way would he have contemplated 'metres'. You have said yourself that because it (metric) has been attached to the EU it would be as such unpopular.

<<<OK, I think I must have fallen for the conspiracy theories of the imperial supporters!>>>

I think it depends on the inclinations of the writer. You'd hate to hear this but if a producer is aggressively pro-EU then he *WILL* use metric. I know someone just like this!

<<<
Thats easy. The Government has to make the first move. They need to phase out completely the use of imperial by traders (which they are doing), and convert road signs to metric (which they are not doing). Then, and only then, will the media, and the people gradually switch to metric.>>>

No comment!

<<
I agree. The BBC should stay neutral rather than sink to the level of certain newspapers.>>

Snob!

<<<They 'persist' in using Fahrenheit because there is a call for it.>>>

More people use celsius than fahrenheit. Any newspaper that gives only fahrenheit, or fahernheit first obviously has an agenda. (I think only the Torygraph actually does this)

<<<It would have been scripted carefully to extract the most warmth of the viewer. I can assure you that in no way would he have contemplated 'metres'. You have said yourself that because it (metric) has been attached to the EU it would be as such unpopular.>>>

I honestly don't think anyone would have noticed the difference. Apart from us on this board, no-one notices whether someone says yards or metres.

<<<I think it depends on the inclinations of the writer. You'd hate to hear this but if a producer is aggressively pro-EU then he *WILL* use metric. I know someone just like this!>>>

I agree - and likewise if someone is agressively anti-EU they will use imperial only.

And if a media organisation is agressively anti-EU, any articles containing metric will be converted to imperial.

It has been the policy to switch to using metric units for over thirty years. This means that all official policy is promoted using metric units and that it is incument upon the Government to ensure that the public understands metric units.

There is an old Chinese saying
I hear, I forget
I see, I remember
I do, I understand.

As long as the radio stations persist in using Fahrenheit, they are sabotaging the "I do, I understand" part of the Chinese saying. When an occasion arises when it is important that the person understands a temperature warning that si given in Celsius, those that persist in using Fahrenheit can miss the urgency.

<<
More people use celsius than fahrenheit.>>

Not when the summer comes! DEFINITELY not!

<< Any newspaper that gives only fahrenheit, or fahernheit first obviously has an agenda. (I think only the Torygraph actually does this) >>

I don't care which way around it is so long as the choice is there.

<<I honestly don't think anyone would have noticed the difference. Apart from us on this board, no-one notices whether someone says yards or metres.>>

No - believe me - the wording of the text will have been gone over by marketing bods with a fine toothed comb. They would have gone over it again and again and again. I used to be involved in all this (and today my other half is into marketing). Each and every word will have been gone over. Even pronunciation.

<<I agree - and likewise if someone is agressively anti-EU they will use imperial only.>>

I'm agressively anti-EU, but I sometimes use metric. It's not so clear cut as that on "my side".

Martin:"There is an old Chinese saying
I hear, I forget
I see, I remember
I do, I understand."

There's also a chines "doing" too. Remember Tianamen Square? Bad example me thinks.

<<As long as the radio stations persist in using Fahrenheit, they are sabotaging the "I do, I understand" part of the Chinese saying. When an occasion arises when it is important that the person understands a temperature warning that si given in Celsius, those that persist in using Fahrenheit can miss the urgency.>>

Answer me honestly - Do you want to make it so that I cannot see my prefered unit of measure?

And why do you possess that "power feeling" yet I would feel sick about myself if I were to want you only to see Fahrenheit.

What makes you superior to me on this?

You worry me sometimes, Martin.

I think the number of people using Fahrenheit these days has reached a sufficiently low level to justify it being phased out completely from radio/TV broadcasts.

The problem is, many stations have tried to stop giving fahrenheit temperatures but they get complaints. For some reason, some older people still have an attachment to fahrenheit.

I agree with Martin, giving Fahrenheit temperatures does distort peoples understanding of temperature and I think the sensible move would be to phase it out completely. With all due respect to the older people who prefer Fahrenheit, they all understand celsius perfectly well, and are just being stubborn.

<<<Not when the summer comes! DEFINITELY not! >>>

NO - when the summer comes more people use F than in the winter. By far, more people still use C

<<<No - believe me - the wording of the text will have been gone over by marketing bods with a fine toothed comb. They would have gone over it again and again and again. I used to be involved in all this (and today my other half is into marketing). Each and every word will have been gone over. Even pronunciation.>>>

OK conceded. It probably was looked at.

<<<Answer me honestly - Do you want to make it so that I cannot see my prefered unit of measure? >>>

This is a difficult one. But you cannot keep everyone happy unless you always give both measurements. As I said in my previous post I believe the number of people still using F is low enough to justify not giving it.

When it comes to temperatures, the tables are turned. Celsius is much more popular than Fahrenheit.
So we use the argument that *you* use when it comes to road signs!

<<I think the number of people using Fahrenheit these days has reached a sufficiently low level to justify it being phased out completely from radio/TV broadcasts.>>

Why? If only 5 people used fahrenheit what harm would it cause to say it? The same argument was made for phasing out Welsh-speaking television.


<<The problem is, many stations have tried to stop giving fahrenheit temperatures but they get complaints. For some reason, some older people still have an attachment to fahrenheit. >>

Not older people. In my peer group all but one use Fahrenheit when the temps are higher than 70F.
I concede, though, that not one uses Fahrenheit when it is cold. Not even my parents.
I still think it should be quoted though (the cold temps in F)
I'll be brutally honest. Most of us have no feeling for 26C at all. If you say 28C then I will recognise that (I always remember than 28 is 82 backwards - neat eh? - then I scale up and down around that)

<<I agree with Martin, giving Fahrenheit temperatures does distort peoples understanding of temperature>>

Eh? How?

<< and I think the sensible move would be to phase it out completely. With all due respect to the older people who prefer Fahrenheit, they all understand celsius perfectly well, and are just being stubborn.>>

This is just a narrow view point. It's not as simple as that.
If they stopped using F in the summer not only would it be completely pointless and authoritarian but it would take away the sort of magic me and my peer groups have and peer groups across the land when we talk about it "hitting the 90s today". It has real scale! Replacing that with "It's going to hit the second quarter of the low mid 30's today" has totally no appeal apart from if we're all wearing white coats.


<<<NO - when the summer comes more people use F than in the winter. By far, more people still use C>>

I disagree but have no evidence. So - a catch 22 really.

<<This is a difficult one. But you cannot keep everyone happy unless you always give both measurements. As I said in my previous post I believe the number of people still using F is low enough to justify not giving it.>>

So if you cannot keeo everyone happy UNLESS you give both measurements then why cite the inferred unhappiness by disallowing them to see one of them (either one)?
It's a bizzare notion that to make conformity we need a bit of unhappiness.

Tell me what group of people or section of the community is currently in a state of unhappiness because the lady says "...that's 50 degrees Fahrenheit"?
Is there a number of people that feel their hearts sink once the "F-word" is quoted?
Life is not meant to be about conformity.
Resist it.


<<When it comes to temperatures, the tables are turned. Celsius is much more popular than Fahrenheit.
So we use the argument that *you* use when it comes to road signs!>>

Celius is more popular in the winter, Fahrenheit is more popular in the summer.

However, if one was not to hear what people said, if one was not to peruse the holiday brochures in the summertime, if one was only to hear a BBC TV weather reporter during the summer then one might be lead to believe that Fahrenheit was not popular in the summer.

And *that* I will grant you!

<<I think the number of people using Fahrenheit these days has reached a sufficiently low level to justify it being phased out completely from radio/TV broadcasts.>>

Why? If only 5 people used fahrenheit what harm would it cause to say it? The same argument was made for phasing out Welsh-speaking television.


<<The problem is, many stations have tried to stop giving fahrenheit temperatures but they get complaints. For some reason, some older people still have an attachment to fahrenheit. >>

Not older people. In my peer group all but one use Fahrenheit when the temps are higher than 70F.
I concede, though, that not one uses Fahrenheit when it is cold. Not even my parents.
I still think it should be quoted though (the cold temps in F)
I'll be brutally honest. Most of us have no feeling for 26C at all. If you say 28C then I will recognise that (I always remember than 28 is 82 backwards - neat eh? - then I scale up and down around that)

<<I agree with Martin, giving Fahrenheit temperatures does distort peoples understanding of temperature>>

Eh? How?

<< and I think the sensible move would be to phase it out completely. With all due respect to the older people who prefer Fahrenheit, they all understand celsius perfectly well, and are just being stubborn.>>

This is just a narrow view point. It's not as simple as that.
If they stopped using F in the summer not only would it be completely pointless and authoritarian but it would take away the sort of magic me and my peer groups have and peer groups across the land when we talk about it "hitting the 90s today". It has real scale! Replacing that with "It's going to hit the second quarter of the low mid 30's today" has totally no appeal apart from if we're all wearing white coats.


<<<NO - when the summer comes more people use F than in the winter. By far, more people still use C>>

I disagree but have no evidence. So - a catch 22 really.

<<This is a difficult one. But you cannot keep everyone happy unless you always give both measurements. As I said in my previous post I believe the number of people still using F is low enough to justify not giving it.>>

So if you cannot keeo everyone happy UNLESS you give both measurements then why cite the inferred unhappiness by disallowing them to see one of them (either one)?
It's a bizzare notion that to make conformity we need a bit of unhappiness.

Tell me what group of people or section of the community is currently in a state of unhappiness because the lady says "...that's 50 degrees Fahrenheit"?
Is there a number of people that feel their hearts sink once the "F-word" is quoted?
Life is not meant to be about conformity.
Resist it.


<<When it comes to temperatures, the tables are turned. Celsius is much more popular than Fahrenheit.
So we use the argument that *you* use when it comes to road signs!>>

Celius is more popular in the winter, Fahrenheit is more popular in the summer.

However, if one was not to hear what people said, if one was not to peruse the holiday brochures in the summertime, if one was only to hear a BBC TV weather reporter during the summer then one might be lead to believe that Fahrenheit was not popular in the summer.

And *that* I will grant you!

The start of the thread read "You wouldn't think a few yards would make much difference".

Having read the whole thread, that throws a whole new meaning to the MP's wordage!

<<<Why? If only 5 people used fahrenheit what harm would it cause to say it? The same argument was made for phasing out Welsh-speaking television.>>>

I agree, it causes no harm to say it. It also causes no harm to not say it. You cannot compare an outdated method of measuring temperature to a language.

<<<Not older people. In my peer group all but one use Fahrenheit when the temps are higher than 70F.
I concede, though, that not one uses Fahrenheit when it is cold. Not even my parents.>>>

I find that odd. I can think of only one person in my peer group that uses Fahrenheit in the summer - although she's only mid-20's.

<<<I'll be brutally honest. Most of us have no feeling for 26C at all.>>>

I think its the exact opposite. When people use Fahrenheit for hot temperatures they do so purely to exaggerate. When it actually comes to imagining 85 or 95F I don't think many people would have a clue. 26 or 28 though - you just *know* instantly on hearing the numbers how hot it really is

<<I agree with Martin, giving Fahrenheit temperatures does distort peoples understanding of temperature

Eh? How?>>>

See above - when people switch to Fahrenheit to exaggerate high temperatures.

<<<it would take away the sort of magic me and my peer groups have and peer groups across the land when we talk about it "hitting the 90s today". It has real scale!>>>

That is a completely false "magic" If you admit you don't use Fahrenheit for temperatures less than 70F, how can it have any meaning?

For a scale to have real meaning you have to understand it at both ends of the scale! To put it very simplisticaly - If you don't know whats cold, how do you know whats hot?! Thats what I mean by distorting peoples understanding of temperatures.

<<<Tell me what group of people or section of the community is currently in a state of unhappiness because the lady says "...that's 50 degrees Fahrenheit"?>>>

It can contribute to the above distortion - if people get into the habit of using F to exaggerate high temps

<<<Celius is more popular in the winter, Fahrenheit is more popular in the summer.>>>

Well we'll have to disagree on that one!

<<<However, if one was not to hear what people said, if one was not to peruse the holiday brochures in the summertime, if one was only to hear a BBC TV weather reporter during the summer then one might be lead to believe that Fahrenheit was not popular in the summer.>>>

Why do you think holiday brochures give temperatures in Fahrenheit? Because it misleads people. They see 80 and think "ooh thats hot" when really they haven't a clue what 80F actually "feels" like. If they see 30C they *know* exactly how hot that is but it doesn't have quite the dramatic effect.

As you may have noticed Fahrenheit is one of my pet hates! As you know, I'm not someone who takes all this measurement stuff to the extremes - I use miles and give my height in feet and inches etc, and none of it bothers me in everyday life (away from this messageboard)

- but fahrenheit really winds me up!

Grrrr!

<<I agree, it causes no harm to say it. It also causes no harm to not say it.>>

It does cause harm to deny people information in the way they want to see it. It does not harm anyone to see a different perspective to what they want to see.

<< You cannot compare an outdated method of measuring temperature to a language.>>

To some its not outdated.


<<When people use Fahrenheit for hot temperatures they do so purely to exaggerate. When it actually comes to imagining 85 or 95F I don't think many people would have a clue.>>

No - I don;t agree.
I've always seen 85F as the "perfect holiday temp".
95F would be too hot.
People exaggerate cold C temps too, btw.
Everyone I know switches there "external temp" gauge from C to F in their cars - so if they say its 75F they mean it.

<< 26 or 28 though - you just *know* instantly on hearing the numbers how hot it really is >>

Not to me, my wife or most of my friends.

<<See above - when people switch to Fahrenheit to exaggerate high temperatures. >>

Not really, no.
Not what I've seen anyhoo.

<<
That is a completely false "magic" If you admit you don't use Fahrenheit for temperatures less than 70F, how can it have any meaning?>>

Because temps around 60 are room temps - there is nothing interesting to be said about them. Only when it gets warm or cold do you "feel" a temperature.

<<It can contribute to the above distortion - if people get into the habit of using F to exaggerate high temps>>

Get off this "distortion" hook!

<<<Celius is more popular in the winter, Fahrenheit is more popular in the summer.>>>

<<Well we'll have to disagree on that one! >>

OK!


<<Why do you think holiday brochures give temperatures in Fahrenheit? Because it misleads people.>>

No- its because its meaningful to them

<< They see 80 and think "ooh thats hot" when really they haven't a clue what 80F actually "feels" like.>>

Rubbish!
They always put the "holiday country" temperature superimposed over the UK one to act as a reference!

<< If they see 30C they *know* exactly how hot that is but it doesn't have quite the dramatic effect.>>

They really don't!
honest!

<<As you may have noticed Fahrenheit is one of my pet hates! As you know, I'm not someone who takes all this measurement stuff to the extremes - I use miles and give my height in feet and inches etc, and none of it bothers me in everyday life (away from this messageboard)>>

As you prob guess, I don't care too much - choosing one or the other.
The only thing I have to worry about is organisations who, without consulting me, would like that choice removed and for me not to complain about it.

<<- but fahrenheit really winds me up!>>

Fahrenheit WARMS me up!

<< Grrrr! >>

Easy there!