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The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

June 5 2004 at 12:18 PM
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  (Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town
In the weeks after D-Day, more than a dozen medieval French hamlets were flattened, killing thousands of civilians. John Lichfield met survivors who will never forget the horror of those raids
05 June 2004


When Renée Fouques was 16, her childhood was exploded before her eyes. "Our old Aunay disappeared that day," she says. "The school where I had learnt to read; our narrow streets with wooden buildings; the hospital we were so proud of; my grandmother's house, where I lived.

"The memory of that day will stay in my heart until my death. Sometimes at night, I can still hear the screams of M. Joismel, our neighbour. He was trapped in the rubble of his home up to his waist. We tried to get him out. Everyone tried to get him out but we could not move him; he was buried too deeply and too badly injured. The bombs were still falling. We had to leave him. I will carry his screams with me until I die."

Soon after dawn on Monday, 12 June 1944, Aunay-sur-Odon, a small market town in the Norman hills, was bombed by British aircraft. By the following day, the fires started by the heavy bombs had spread through the close-packed, half-timbered buildings in the town centre. On the Wednesday night - Aunay's night of hell - the RAF returned and systematically pulverised what remained of the town, dropping 6,500 tons of bombs in an area of less than one square kilometre.

Many townspeople had already fled, but not all. The priest, Abbé André Paul, who had stayed behind to search for survivors and help the injured, wrote afterwards: "The ground shook violently under the explosive charge[s]; houses trembled as though there was an earthquake. The unfortunate survivors who had sheltered in trenches were lifted from the ground and projected against the sides. At the hospital, two wards and the chapel succumbed. Half of the maternity department stayed up but fire threatened the basement where sick and wounded had crowded in."

By the next morning, all that remained of Aunay-sur-Odon were the church tower and the gutted shells of two other buildings. Even long-dead citizens had been torn from their graves in the cemetery. Of Aunay's 1,700 people, 165 died in the British air-raids, including all six members of one family. There were no German casualties, because there were no Germans in the town.

In destructive power, the raids on Aunay were among the most effective RAF actions of the war. But why were we attacking our allies? Why were we killing the people we were trying to liberate? The raids on Aunay were part of a calculated pattern of obliteration of Norman towns and villages, which was the most shameful and misconceived episode in an otherwise heroic and brilliantly planned invasion.

On the night and afternoon of D-Day, heavy bombers of the RAF and USAAF diverted from their 24-hour assaults on Germany and carpet-bombed Lisieux, Pont L'Evôque, Condé sur Noireau, Falaise, Flers, Vire, St Lô, Argentan and Coutances. More than 3,000 Norman civilians, including many children, women and old people, died in these initial raids, almost exactly the same as the number of Allied soldiers who died on the five invasion beaches that day.

Within hours, a dozen beautiful old towns were in rubble, the equivalent of the destruction of Canterbury, Rye, Folkestone, Tunbridge Wells and every town in Kent. Aunay-sur-Odon and the great medieval city of Caen, the capital of William the Conqueror, were flattened in raids days later.

Of the estimated 20,000 Norman civilians killed in the nine weeks of the Battle of Normandy, 10,000 of them died in Allied bombing. But the bombardments scarcely feature in movies such as The Longest Day or Saving Private Ryan. The military myth which led to the raids - the belief that you can liberate populations by bombing them - has survived to influence the conduct of our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Even in Normandy, at the time, the destruction was accepted by many (not all) people as a necessary sacrifice; part of a cruel war; a painful amputation to save France from Nazi tyranny. As the years passed, the awkward questions have returned more insistently and the bitterness, suppressed for so long, has been expressed, but not quite openly.

Professor Jean Quellien, an internationally respected historian at the University of Caen who has studied many of the myths and forgotten stories of the Battle of Normandy, said: "If you, as a Briton, ask any Norman person about the bombardments, there will still be a reluctance to criticise or complain. There is strong, overall sense of gratitude for what the British and American and other troops did 60 years ago, and a feeling that, to protest about the bombings, would be misunderstood and would be seen as ungrateful in some way.

"When Normans talk among themselves, it is quite different. People are ready to say now what they were not ready to say before. There is a strong sense of bitterness, a belief that this was done too casually, even callously, and was, in any case, unnecessary."

The rebuilt town of Aunay-sur-Odon had refused to celebrate D-Day and the liberation of Normandy. The older citizens take the view that their town was not liberated, but destroyed. This year, Aunay has relented and invited veterans and others from its Devonian twin town, Holsworthy. Madame Fouques said: "Personally, I feel no bitterness towards the British, although I know that for many years some people did feel bitter, and some in Aunay still do. I just want to ask the same question that we, all of us, asked at the time, 'Why us? Why was it necessary? Why Aunay-sur-Odon?'."

To answer that question, you have to put yourself into the shoes, and minds, of the politicians, generals and air chiefs who planned the Normandy landings. The Allies had an overwhelming superiority in air power. Since the destruction of Guernica by German planes during the Spanish Civil War, and the terrorising of civilian populations in Poland, the Netherlands and France by the Luftwaffe in 1939-40, there was an exaggerated belief in the importance of "strategic" bombing.

We tend to think of the Battle of Normandy as a one-day event, not the murderous nine-week struggle that it was. The crucial issue for D-Day planners was how to prevent the Germans from reinforcing their armies in lower Normandy before the Allies brought large numbers of men and guns and tanks and munitions ashore.

If the Germans managed to bring together the divisions that were in Brittany, or the Pas de Calais, or the south of France, the invasion forces could be thrown back into the sea. The Allies delayed the movement of some reinforcements by tricking Adolf Hitler into believing another invasion was planned in the north. They used French Resistance groups to blow up key roads and railway junctions (but did not give them the resources to do the job properly).

The British and US bomber commands, determined to be involved in the most important single act of the war, lobbied for another solution: the obliteration of every road junction in lower Normandy, which meant, in effect, almost every Norman town. Tanks and trucks could not cross a town in ruins, the air chiefs said. They knew their bombers were too inaccurate to hit individual targets, such as bridges, but they could destroy towns, especially towns undefended by anti-aircraft fire.

Even at the time, some military commanders and leaders - Winston Churchill included - cast doubt on the wisdom and morality of systematically destroying French communities. Terror bombing of Germany was one thing, but what was the point of terror bombing one's friends? The strategic- bomber lobby got its way.

It was not possible to warn the civilian population through the Resistance network without risking the invasion plan. Leaflets were dropped from aircraft the day before, reading: "Urgent message. To the people of this town: Leave now. You don't have a minute to lose". The pamphlets said all large towns and "transport centres vital to the enemy" would be destroyed. Many of the leaflets fell in open countryside or into the wrong towns or villages. There was no mass exodus before the bombers arrived.

Towns such as Lisieux and Pont L'Eveque and Falaise and Argentan, which had been jewels of French, and European, culture from the Middle Ages, were wiped out, not by enemies, as Coventry or Dresden were wiped out, but by France's allies. Caen was spared at first because the D-Day plan envisaged its capture on the first day. When the Germans resisted, the city was pulverised on 7 and 8 June but still did not fall fully to the Allies until 19 July. The British and Canadians rediscovered what the Germans had found in Stalingrad: that it is harder, not easier, to capture a town in ruins.

Aunay-sur-Odon was bombed from 12 to 15 June, on the specific orders of the Allied land commander, General Bernard Montgomery. German tanks had been spotted in that area. The town stands on a seven-way crossroads. The RAF was ordered to destroy the crossroads and, therefore, the town.

Did the bombing of Norman towns help the Allies? The official British and American military histories are coy on the subject but even they suggest the bombardments held up the Germans for no more than a day or two. Crucial days? The German military histories suggest not. The Norman historian, M. Quellien, says: "According to the German version, the flattening of the towns inconvenienced them a little but they soon found other roads or cleared a way through the ruins. If you study all the primary sources and you examine the views of historians on all sides, and you ask the question, 'Was the bombing justified?', there is only one possible answer. No, it was not."

The single most effective weapon against the Wehrmacht in Normandy - and efforts to reinforce it - was air-power, but not the large, clumsy bombers which flattened towns. British and American fighter-bombers, firing rockets at short range, wreaked havoc on German convoys on the roads, railways, rivers and canals, forcing them to travel only by night. German diaries and military records from the time speak with respect, and terror, of the power of the Jabos, the German word for the Allied fighter-bombers. There is little mention of the impact of the carpet-bombing.

On the first night of the RAF raids on Aunay, the 16-year-old Renée Fouques fled from the blazing mass of rubble. "We put my grandmother into a hand-cart because she was too ill to walk, and we hid in the countryside. We lost everything, but not our lives. Across the road, there was a family which was wiped out, except for an 18-month-old baby who was found alive in his cot hanging from the rafters."

Mme Fouques now lives in one of 15 houses given to the people of Aunay by the Swedish government in 1949. The rebuilding of the town, funded by the Marshall Plan, was completed in 1952 in a kind of Legoland style. The new Aunay is a spacious place, full of flowers, with a lively market on a Saturday morning and a town hall and a church which would grace much larger towns.

But Aunay-sur-Odon remains an architecturally soulless place, a town with too little history, or too much. "We have a new Aunay now and I have learnt to appreciate it but it is not the same for me," Mme Fouques says. "Our old Aunay, our beautiful old Aunay, had no running water, no flushing lavatories. The houses were often cold in the winter. But it was my whole life and we were happy until the war came. Now when I walk around the town, there is nothing to remind me of my childhood, except the war memorial."





 
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(Login IndianPride)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 1:06 AM 

"The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town"

I think your enemies in this forum would laugh and celebrate if they read that

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Paljoey
(Login Paljoey)
Soldiers

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 1:36 AM 

(Yawn) I knew one of these were bound to turn up,given the political motivation of some of its members.Yes one more attempt to tarnish the D-Day anniversary.War will bring unintentional consequences,there is no ' clean ' way to wage it.Innocents are often caught up in its totality.As long as man will wage war there will be civilian casualties,but I ask the French of these villages if they would trade the destruction and casualties for liberation or would they like to remain under the yoke of Nazism?

 
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(Login Nigel_T_Paine)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 4:43 AM 

Its a tragedy that it happened, its good that given precision weapons of today it is much less likely (though will still happen occassionaly).

 
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Eryx
(Login Eric_De_La_Legion)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 4:54 AM 


Tragedy certainly and crime against humanity also, they did the same in germany also. All this weren't necessary. I'll understand that collateral damage is sometime inevitable but not to that scale, this only show they were careless, and french lifes count for sh!t.


 
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andyddse
(Login andyddse)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 5:55 AM 

the RAF and USAF bomb both France and German Civilian with death toll up to 400k a night in Dresden (GDR) where there are no NO German force arround at all.

Check out how Allied did it bombing before telling people that it worth killing so many people....


 
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(Login meemperor)
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Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 6:00 AM 

The Nazi's bombed Allied cities, so the Allies bombed back. It's war, it's not some simulation. If your cities are being firebombed, your not going to be to happy and so, we'll take the morale highgroud and only attack the most important military targets, its not gonan happen.

I nthe latter stages of the war USAF and Bomber Command were taking out factories, the problem was that most of these factories were surronded by houses. In no way should people be complaing about Allied bombing raids, when the Nazis would have leveled every British city if given the chance.


"deeds, not words"

 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

I think your enemies

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June 6 2004, 12:58 PM 

You should learn a little bit of European history, promess you won't feel like laughing, there's little to enjoy for the wars Europe suffered. And by the way who did you think about mentioning this?

For this little tour in Iraq, the "Precision" bombing killed more than 10,000 inocent civilians. Still going strong these sort of FCUK-UPs.




 
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Anonymous
(Login jamesthegren)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 1:59 PM 

You should be glad that the Americans did not get their way. Eisenhower wanted the RAF to 'Dresden' every French city and town within 100 miles of the beacheads.

RAF Bomber Command drew up plans, which were approved by Eisenhower, Harris, and Tedder. But Churchill vetoed them at the last minute. He did not see the logic of terror bombing our allies, especially when D-Day may not have been a success. Eisenhower and the 'Bomber Barons' were furious.

The RAF estimated that had the attacks gone ahead 150,000 French civilians would have been killed in the first couple of days.

The fact that 'only' 10,000 died is actually a bit of a blessing, because if Eisenhower had had his way the figures would have been 15 times higher.


 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

You should be glad that the Americans did not get their way

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June 6 2004, 2:03 PM 

They didn't NEED to whant it. Nijmegen ( aDeuch city where i lived 3 and a half years) was mystaken for a German town from a few miles away across the border an Flattened at +-80%. Hoops!





 
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Pax Extreme
(Login pax_europa)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 8:52 PM 

D-day was all in all a VERY good thing for France and Europe, but it would be unfair to try to hide things that we don't like. History has to be a fair representation, not a glorified tale.

This story is one little piece of reality...

 
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NeroAzzuri
(Login NeroAzzuri)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 9:17 PM 

No matter what any of you say.All cities in nazi occupied europe were legitamate targets.

120000 brave allied bomber crewmen died helping liberate your countries,dont EVER critisize them..


 
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Pax Extreme
(Login pax_europa)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 9:21 PM 

>> No matter what any of you say.All cities in nazi occupied europe were legitamate targets. <<

No, they weren't. Killing civilians is wrong.

>> 120000 brave allied bomber crewmen died helping liberate your countries,dont EVER critisize them.. <<

Norwegians fought to, so don't try that crap on me.

The point is that if we are going to learn anything we have to remember the war as it was, not how we want it to have been.

 
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(Login sachamino)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 9:21 PM 

"dont EVER critisize"

That is the sort of thing what we should never read. No personal stuff, Nero. Plus, anyone can read my POV about WWII in my other posts. But history should always be open to critisizes, as long as critisizing people know what they do.

No offense, but your sentence could have been pronounced by Goebles.

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Non seulement on ne trouve pas d'armes de destructions massives mais on en dé-trouve. Du verbe dé-trouver, qui signifie que quelque chose que l'on avait trouvé ne l'est plus (trouvé). Peut être par exemple employé dans la phrase "On avait trouvé des camions de fabrication d'armes biologiques hyper dangeureuses qui piquent les yeux et le nez, mais en fait, on s'était gauffré parce que nos experts à 1 million de dollars piece savent pas faire la différence entre une pile et une centrale nucléaire. Les armes de déstructions massives, nous en dé-trouvons de plus en plus chaque jour"

 
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Anonymous
(Login Nigel_T_Paine)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 10:46 PM 

I just watch a documentary on the BBC about the D-Day landings.

At the end they said the casualties on the first day were 12,000 Allied, 7,000 German and 20,000 French civilians (I am quoting from memeory but I think they were what the program said). Very horrific.


 
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(Login may18a)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 6 2004, 11:11 PM 

I think these raids, looking back now where unnesecary

however, the article attempts to explain the reasons they decided they
were needed.

I think for us, having not been in a bitter total war it is hard to
properely understand it. Certainly i think as the article mentions
the effectivenes of such bombing raids was grossly over estimated


I certainly dont believe it demonstrated "french lives meant shi*"

if they had, then casualties would have been even higher than the
total 350,000 french civilian casualties of ww2 .





______

 
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(Login ThebetterRob)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 1:38 PM 

the RAF and USAF bomb both France and German Civilian with death toll up to 400k a night in Dresden (GDR) where there are no NO German force arround at all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
400000 a night? It is more 30000 in one night over Dresden, altogether 600000 German Civilians died in Germany because of the bombings. (from 1939-1945)


 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

NeroAzzuri)

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June 7 2004, 1:52 PM 

As been occupied by sheer stupidity (this is the name of the spider web between your ears), you are my legitimate target any time.
You better watch you confi little back side BOZO!

PS you're the one begining to sound like a Nazi right now!




 
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Anonymous
(Login Pax_Britannica)
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Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 2:14 PM 

Didn't Charles De Gaulle say something along the lines of:

"I will accept twice as many French civilian casualties aslong as it means Freedom for France"

???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Coming to a Theatre of War soon...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 
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(Login LoupGaroux)
WAFFer

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 2:14 PM 

"Norwegians fought to, so don't try that crap on me."

Yes, Pax, but that doesn't count (!)... sigh some broad on CNN even thought ALL European governments had collaborated with the Nazis... Luckily, she was corrected by a historian who said that most had fled the country and set up a government elsewhere, mostly in Britain.


 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

I will accept twice as many French civilian casualties aslong as it means Freedom for Fran

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June 7 2004, 2:25 PM 

Easy for YOU to say or HIM IF he did ( I'll advise YOU to provide us with the evidence of this statment). There is a big difference between talking and talking and talking and actually being there. Those who were there wouldn't accept more innocents to be killed. No wonder You guys don't understand WHY thing didn't go right in Iraq, in fact civilians casualties doen't seem to make ANY differences to you. It does. Strategically, to the most advanced specialists of modern warfare. We are loosing the Moral ground to the ennemy (and the strastegic WAR as well in the process)and talking like this just bring us back to the cave-age. Not me thanx.






 
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Anonymous
(Login SpartanBlood)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 2:48 PM 

I guess some of you think that war is a game, to be played on a monitor and no one is killed.

As for Dresden, perhaps some of you need history lessons. Then again, some would like to revise history to suit their "revisionist" views. Is it any suprise that in German one of the best sellers is a book about the Dresden bombing? This is in the same country that used gas ovens to expidite racial cleansing. Or perhaps one could look at what Germany did other countries. Did Stalingrad deserve to be destroyed? If it did then Dresden certainly did, twice over.

As for other towns in France and elsewhere destroyed by the D-Day invasion. My father in law VOLUNTEERED to save your European forefathers butts and never recovered. He didn't have to but he DID. He NEVER complained about what the war did to him and his family and yet I hear complaints about the "insensitive" allies.

Why don't you just go to his grave and spit on him?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Second World War Air Marshall Arthur Harris

In February of 1945, with the Russian army threatening the heart of Saxony, I was called upon to attack Dresden; this was considered a target of the first importance for the offensive on the Eastern front. Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front and it was considered that a heavy air attack would disorganise these communications and also make Dresden useless as a controlling centre for the defence. It was also by far the largest city in Germany - the pre-war population was 630,000 - which had been left intact; it had never before been bombed. As a large centre of war industry it was also of the highest importance.

~~~~~

It was a major railroad hub, a major communications center and a major arms manufacturing town. If they didn't want it bombed, should have surrendered or better yet, not started another WORLD WAR.

 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

not started another WORLD WAR

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June 7 2004, 2:52 PM 

This is valid for the Iraqi war as well, so what you're saying in effect is: It's gonna be perfectly all right for Al Quaida supporters to detonate a "dirty" Nuke in downtown London. You would make a terrific advisor to Bush or Blair mate!





 
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(Login RM-Nod)
WAFFer

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 3:46 PM 

Easy for YOU to say or HIM IF he did ( I'll advise YOU to provide us with the evidence of this statment). There is a big difference between talking and talking and talking and actually being there.

He clearly said Charles De Gaulle said that. Stop quoting people so it makes them look bad.


 
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(Login Cuddles45)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 4:23 PM 

A study on the civillian death toll of the Normandy region during the campaign to libertae it:

http://www.calvados.pref.gouv.fr/pref_14/60eme/scripts/gen/edition/page.php?page_id=47&lg=2

Study on the total losses of WW2:

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

There was only one way to take a town by this part of WW2, and that was to flatten it. The small arms were too efficient, and the anti-tank weponary to accurate to try and just roll in with infantry and armour. The Allied armour perticularly was too thin to bring it into close combat, Tigers would murder them with practical impunity. The idea of a Churchill trying to go head to head with any of the German heavy armour is just insane, they'd be dead in one shot (and they usually were). The only response would be air power, which was very inaccurate but the only choice in the situation.

 
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Paljoey
(Login Paljoey)
Soldiers

@ Wales

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June 7 2004, 6:37 PM 

Good points..You articulated it better than I have tried.You are " spot on."

 
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(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

He clearly said Charles De Gaulle said that

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June 7 2004, 6:45 PM 

Who? Link? Funny you always ask for mine when it's pretty bvious i provide them all the time. Did you suffer a craddle crash sometime soon after your birth? How come they let you join the Army?

Eat this, or alternatively try a cure of Beaujolais nouveau (Do NOT inject, your brain is all ready damaged behond recovery apparently).


"and that was to flatten it" Same here, Who gives YOU the authority to come up with a statment like this one? Are you General Jukov by any chance? He didn't need the 8Th Air Force and Bomber Command to take Berlin. This strategy was define by the British High Command no one else as there wasn't the equivalent Air Forces anywhere else. Jukov made it first to Berlin.

PS He is the only General in History NEVER to have loose da battle.

 
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Anonymous
(Login may18a)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 6:53 PM 

interesting links wales thanks

i was referring to bombing of civilian areas btw.



______

 
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(Login Pax_Britannica)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 7:00 PM 

Thunder,

Was on the D-Day commemorations. Unfortunately they don't do links to television, but it's highly doubtful they'd lie. Why would they?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Coming to a Theatre of War soon...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 
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Paljoey
(Login Paljoey)
Soldiers

@ Thunder

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June 7 2004, 7:02 PM 

The decision was made by the US/UK to " let " the USSR into Berlin first.That was a concession at Yalta.Its a fact,if I have time I can pull it up.

As far as Allied armor engaging the German panzer units I think its important to note even in the attack,the Germans " gave " better than they " got ",at a 2:1 ratio.Allied tactical air strategy was sound.

 
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(Login Cuddles45)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 8:13 PM 

General Sukov was not the first general to realise that the only way to take a town with the weaponary available was to "flatten it". I am in no way advocating the methods used but in the link I provide below you will see the typical anti-tank weapon used by German infantry and though some people over value it in terms of its fire power it did a lot of damage in Normandy:

http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/military/weapons-german-panzerfaust.html

Now this was well suited to close combat and would take out any of the Allied tanks quite easily.

The 21st Pz division was stationed near Caen and could have easily flattened the eastern flank of the Allied advance, either by advancing quickly up to the beach head or withdrawing into Caen. They tried to do the former but were repulsed (Pz 4's used) and then withdrew into the vicinity of the town:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/counterattack.aspx

This is why the town was flattened. Then came the Bocage, which drained British reserves white after Operation Goodwood (I think it was called)as there was only 3 months of replacement before it, after there were none and the British and Canadian army shrank from then on with most troops being sent to the Far east to fight Japan. Here is a link to the Bocage fighting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3758093.stm

The countryside was bad enough, the cities would have destroyed the advance and meant that France would be completely flattened instead of partialy so as the German troops would not have been encircled in swift assaults and would ahve been able to fall back in good order.

Here is a good link to a free French fighter interview (plus video):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3675525.stm

And another interview to French man whose town was liberated by the British, and lost a brother in the bombing of Caen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3782125.stm



 
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NeroAzzuri
(Login NeroAzzuri)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 7 2004, 8:28 PM 


thunder,

'NeroAzzuri,As been occupied by sheer stupidity (this is the name of the spider web between your ears), you are my legitimate target any time.
You better watch you confi little back side BOZO!'


Lol looks like ive got another bloody gaylord to deal with,hahaha



back to the main subject...

Its very easy with hindsight to say bombing wasnt nessacary or that it killed to many people.But back then we were fighting a war,the allies did what they had to do to win.Area/carpet etc bombing had to be done.Dont forget that around 250 US soldiers and about 85 canadian soldiers were killed by USAF bombers during the first few days of the invasion,risks had to be taken and people,whether civlians or soldiers got killed.

sorry if i got angry in my earlier posts but it really pisses me off to see frenchmen or other europeans critising people that liberated them.With it being the anniversary of dday it makes some of ur comments even more annoying....

55% of all aircrewmen NEVER returned home,probably the highest loss rate of all the branches in the armed forces during ww2.As spartan said before,they didnt have to be there,they didnt have to risk their lives... but they did ...for your freedom.

Just think about this before critising the USAF/RAF bomber forces





 
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Anonymous
(Login may18a)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 8 2004, 1:14 AM 

lol nero they must have heard about you navy boys
**wink

or is it the italian charm??


______

 
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Pax Extreme
(Login pax_europa)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 8 2004, 8:19 PM 

>> Its very easy with hindsight to say bombing wasnt nessacary or that it killed to many people.But back then we were fighting a war,the allies did what they had to do to win.Area/carpet etc bombing had to be done. <<

The fact that the Allies did things that today would be considered war crimes doesn't mean that the grand total wasn't overwhelmingly positive. The point is that we shouldn't hide it either. The bombing of Dresden for example was pure vengance... nothing glorious about it.

>> sorry if i got angry in my earlier posts but it really pisses me off to see frenchmen or other europeans critising people that liberated them. <<

Northen Norway was liberated by the Soviets. Does that mean that I can't say anything negative about Stalins behaviour during WWII?

>> With it being the anniversary of dday it makes some of ur comments even more annoying.... <<

I agree that the timing perhaps wasn't the best. But, as I have mentioned before 3,000 Norwegians took part in the operation, so I won't accept your idea that gratitude should make me shut up. I also have several older relatives who fought. Their contribution was no less important than that of any Briton or American.

>> As spartan said before,they didnt have to be there,they didnt have to risk their lives... but they did ...for your freedom. <<

Some probably, but the majority were there because they had been sent by governments acting out of their own self interest. That doesn't make their efforts any less valuable to Europe though.

This isn't a lack of graditude, it is a fair representation of history.

 
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(Login Nigel_T_Paine)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:04 AM 

You have to remember that technology in WW2 was lot a lower than today.

I am sure lots of French and German towns / cities were destroyed for no benefit. But at the time surveillance technology was very low-tech so no way the Allies could have identified in advance if a particular place was a military target or not.

Regarding Dresden : Very horrible, but by that time UK/Germany were fighting total war, UK and German cities were being bombed indiscriminatley. Almost all people of both countries were contributing (directly or indirectly) to the war effort. It didn't matter there were no troops in the town, the things they made helped the German troops so destroying it impacted them.

i.e. say that the only thing that dresden made was light bulbs, destroying that capability would impact German military effort so valid.

I wish we had precision weapons then so could have targetted the factories, we didn't so just hitting the town was considered quite good going.





 
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Eryx
(Login Eric_De_La_Legion)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:11 AM 

"Northen Norway was liberated by the Soviets. Does that mean that I can't say anything negative about Stalins behaviour during WWII?"

Did northern Norway became soviet?


 
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Pax Extreme
(Login pax_europa)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:15 AM 

>> Did northern Norway became soviet? <<

No, they pulled out. I have never been able to find out why though. They "kept" most of the land they conquered. Norway didn't even have a border with the USSR before the war, but they took a lot of Finland.

 
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Paljoey
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Soldiers

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:21 AM 

I saw on the History Channel where an American bombadier on a USAAF B-17,took a pistol out a shot himself in the head after he and his crew got back to base....upon returning they found out they had " hit " a Belgian school and killed quite a few children.They were interviewing one of his flight crew he flew with.The guy said he was under alot of stress as they all were and it tore his heart out having killed kids.He put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.Thats some sh*t isn't it?

 
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Pax Extreme
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Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:29 AM 

That's a sad story, Paljoey. War is cruel.

 
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(Login Devin172)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:29 AM 

Paljoey:

Sort of reminds me of how I heard that the bombers used the spires of Churches to navigate and find their targets...

 
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(Login Devin172)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:37 AM 

Pax E:

"Some probably, but the majority were there because they had been sent by governments acting out of their own self interest."

Not true really. In the later stages of the war draftees began to make up higher percentages of the units...but at the time of the invasion the bulk of the units were either predominantly or completely (i.e. the American Airborne & Rangers) volunteer. Hell, the liberation of Europe and the elimination of Hitler had been a primary goal of Americans for years...even prior to America's entry (polls show strong public support for supply weapons to European states fighting Hitler even at the risk of war as early as 1939). The big shift for the opinions of Americans occured more or less during the Spanish Civil War when people realized 1) that a European war is becoming more likely 2) Hitler and the axis will be the aggressors and 3) they must be stopped at all cost if America's safety is to be guarenteed.

I've been reading a lot on the opinions of Americans regarding the Axis...predominantly the people who fought in the ETO weren't there because the government was acting on its own self-interest...they thought they were doing their duty and exactly where they should be...trying to bring down Hitler. To them, the Pacific was merely a sideshow...Europe had always been viewed as the main threat...and with the fall of France (and the possibility of French colonies eventually being used as stepping stones to a North American invasion) Americans no longer felt impregnable.

 
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Pax Extreme
(Login pax_europa)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:43 AM 

>> 3) they must be stopped at all cost if America's safety is to be guarenteed. <<

This more or less is my point.

<< To them, the Pacific was merely a sideshow... <<

Don't tell Broken...

>> Europe had always been viewed as the main threat...and with the fall of France (and the possibility of French colonies eventually being used as stepping stones to a North American invasion) Americans no longer felt impregnable. <<

The funny thing is that Washington was furious when de Gaulle took back St Pierre and Miquelon (off Canada). They had a plan to try to get Petain back onto the Allied side and though de Gaulle was ruining it.

 
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Paljoey
(Login Paljoey)
Soldiers

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:46 AM 

@ Jason,yes mostly true,however like my Grandfather and Great Uncle who served said that they " hated " the Japanese but there was no 'real ' hatred for the Germans.Pearl Harbor and revenge was on the USA's mind,and nothing else.Japan was hated like no one could hate another,the Germans outside the SS weren't " loathed " beacuse in part(this might sound racist,but its waht they and others have said)they " looked " like we did,when looking thru a gunsight and seeing someone who looks like you ,you tend to ' relate ' to them more(funny but the Germans said the same thing).No doubt,the US Marines and Navy wanted to kill as many Japanese as posible.

 
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(Login Devin172)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:55 AM 

Paljoey:

Different motivations for different nations. It was revenge for Japan but for Germany...they (not the Germans but the Nazis) were seen as a threat...an aggressive bully that needed to be silenced. Doesn't mean the soldiers @ D-Day were there soley because of the government...they had different reasons that brought them there.

That was the reason why my grandfather joined when he was 18...and that's why he volunteered to lead the way (he was a forward observe and a pathfinder...since he was 1st generation German) on D-Day...one of the first wave @ Omaha Beach.

 
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Pax Extreme
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Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 2:56 AM 

Did your grandfather survive?

 
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Paljoey
(Login Paljoey)
Soldiers

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 3:08 AM 

@ Jason,I'll go along with that.I had a Great-Uncle and another Grandfather that fought in Europe.My Mothers real Father was killed in Sicily,and my Great-Uncle was wounded on the push into Germany.

 
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(Login Devin172)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: The day Allied bombers destroyed my home town

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June 9 2004, 3:12 AM 

Pax E:

Yeah...can't really describe how he felt about it though (very stoic...tended to play his cards close) but all he did tell us about how he made it was that he used the dead buddies as bullet shields.

 
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