WAFF Vet Club[Click here to Join WAFF!] WAFF Moderators Forum
General Discussion
(The Den)
The World's Armed Forces Forum History, Politics, Economics and Religion Forum
Greece & Turkey Defence Forum Europe, Middle East & Africa
Defence Forum
Asia & Pacific Defence Forum
Help, Suggestions & Complaints
   
   
WAFF Debates Forum
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

October 6 2005 at 2:27 AM
No score for this post

  (Login NintendoGamer76)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Which is the best A2A missile?

IRIS-T






AIM-9X






Python 5






    
This message has been edited by NintendoGamer76 on Oct 6, 2005 2:29 AM


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

Mango Commando
(Login Simon_Bolivar.)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 2:55 AM 

Chinese PL-6 is not bad aswell

--------------------------------------------

"DIOS Y VICTORIA"


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login OakRidge)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:20 AM 

Should we start calling you Chinese now?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login OakRidge)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:22 AM 

I would go

1.Python 5
2.AIM-9X
2.IRIS-T

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
flordecana
(Login flordecana)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:23 AM 

What bout the russian AA-11 archer? Its a good candidate too.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login OakRidge)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:25 AM 

The Archer is a bit old.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login jatt2ooo)
Satyameva Jayate (India)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:26 AM 

All these now have an edge over it now expecially the Python 5 which is capable of a 180 degree turn. Meaning the guy in the back can get some.




 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
flordecana
(Login flordecana)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:35 AM 

I go for..

1.Python   2.Archer  3. Sidewinder  4. Iris


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login dwightlooi)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Well...

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 4:26 AM 

Here is a nice videoclip with dozens of AIM-9X shots including a few very cool 90 and 180 degree U-turn shots.



Here is my take on the AIM-9X

The AIM-9X probably has the best seeker and guidance, but the worst motor. The AIM-9x is a compromised round. The fifth generation Imaging IR seeker -- also used on the current production AIM-132 ASRAAM -- with a 180 field of view is very good. The guidance package -- which allows for lock-on after launch with helmet, radar or EW suite cueing -- is second to none. The missile is also backwards compatible to any aircraft capable of launching the AIM-9 (albiet without all the advanced cueing modes) and its self-contained seeker which does not require external liquid nitrogen supply also ranks high for flexibility and reliability. However, the AIM-9X uses the AIM-9L/M/N motor which is almost a decade and a half old. Even though the missile is now thrust vectored and tail controlled, the old motor limits its dynamic performance. The minimalist fins also means two things. Firstly, once the motor burns out the super agility goes out the window with the thrust vectoring. Secondly, because of the minimal drag the missile probably has better kinetics at the edge of its envelope compared to say the Python 5 with massive aerodynamic controls, even though maneuverability will also be decidedly inferior. The reason for retaining the old motor for cost savings from being able to remanufacture AIM-9L/M/N rounds into AIM-9Xs by reusing the thousands of old motors.


Der Wille zur Macht!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login NintendoGamer76)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 6:19 AM 

Anyone else?


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login NintendoGamer76)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 6:42 AM 

1. Python 5/AIM-9X
2. IRIS-T


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login beryoza)
Moderators

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 12:40 PM 

I will yell it out: Iris-t is WAAAAAYYY better than AIM9X.
Make a research.

________________________________

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login orao)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 12:43 PM 

Python 5 is the best because IAF pilots are the best in dog fight and the most experienced, also.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Thunder
(Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

Question: is MICA IR a rythmic stick by your guys standards?

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 12:51 PM 


Thanks for including it in the contest...

- CDG: Thunder SAY AGAIN? Your intentions are unreadable... (Thunder) AGAIN?... AGAIN?...AGAIN?...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

roland
(Login ultrarep)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 1:00 PM 

Well if you include the MICA, there is no contest at all



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login SargeAUS)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 1:08 PM 

You'll have to include ASRAAM in your little pissing contest as well.

- Sarge

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login soyuz1917)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 1:27 PM 

the k-74ME has a 120 degree off boresight capability and what people always fail to mention about the python is that in order to get the maneuverabilty and thus the 180 degree capability it sacrifices range. The K-74ME which will become the R-74 will have twice the range of the python and almost the same offboresight maneuverability.

The PYTHON 5 HAS HALF THE RANGE OF THE K-74ME! HTH.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Rob
(Login ThebetterRob)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 3:37 PM 

The ASRAAM has a range of over 10nm. So as most other systems mentioned it is used primarily in the WVR.







generated by sloganizer.net

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login Koz4k)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 4:09 PM 

Can someone post these missiles capabilities side by side?

Range, speed, guidance, etc.

Watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart!


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

roland
(Login ultrarep)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 4:47 PM 

Designation - Guidance - rangeMin/max(km) - Speed(Mach) - Weight(kg) - Length/diam./span(cm)

Matra MICA - AR/IR - 5/50 - 3+ - 110 - 310/16/56

http://www.mbda.net/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=124

Rafael Python 5 - IR - /20 - 4 - 106 - 300/16/50

IOC 2003
Same airframe, warhead, proximity fuze and motor as Python 4,
two colour focal plane array seeker, upgraded INS and autopilot/flight
control laws. "Full sphere capability". Seeker may be a derivative of
the cancelled AIM-9R's seeker.

Molniya/Vympel R-73E RDM1 - IR - 0.3/30 - 3+ - 110 - 290/18/51
Can intercept 12G targets at 0.3-30 km
or turn 180 deg

Raytheon AIM-9X - IIR - ? - 2.5? - 85 - 302/13/48

Evolved Sidewinder
128x128 staring focal plane array, 3-5 micron. It has thrust vectoring, will use existing Sidewinder motors. Fins and rudders are smaller.

BGT/SAAB/AleniaMarconi IRIS-T - IIR - ? - ? - ~88 - 287/13/64

IRIS - T carries a roll-pitch imaging IR seeker with a ± 90 degree look angle and advanced signal processing and is fully compliant with existing analogous Sidewinder and digital aircraft interfaces. Its mass, length, diameter and centre of gravity are also similar to the AIM-9L/M Sidewinder. IRIS-T is an all-up round/certified round logistic concept.
Thrust vectoring, 90 deg off boresight seeker, 64x64 (scanning?) indium-antimonide 3-5 micron seeker. Sidewinder interoperable. Capable of 60G turns and 60deg AoA. Active radar fuze, 9kg warhead.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Kovy)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 4:52 PM 

Quote:
Matra MICA - AR/IR - 5/50 - 3+ - 110 - 310/16/56


MBDA site says : minimum range : 0.5 km (and not 5 km) / maximum range : 60 km (and not 50 km)

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login ultrarep)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 5:26 PM 

yes, we are humble and modest aren't we ?
there http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/dga/enjeux/les_programmes_d_armement/systemes_des_forces
/la_maitrise_du_milieu_aerospatial/mirage_micca/le_missile_dinterception_de_combat_et_dautodefense_mica" they say the range is even > 80 Km

EDIT: link too long, make, horizontal scrolling, and I HATE horizontal scrolling.
so the ling is split on two line



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Commando Mango
(Login Simon_Bolivar.)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 6:05 PM 

Mica



--------------------------------------------

"DIOS Y VICTORIA"


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Kovy)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 6:29 PM 

Quote:
yes, we are humble and modest aren't we ?


Nok, we are arrogant cheese eating frogs

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login Radec)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 6:43 PM 

you should compare Mica with R-77 or AMRAAM not with R-73,
and R-73 have one distinct advantage over the other missiles mentioned:
it was available some 20 years before Pyton-5, AIM-9X, IRIS-T and ASRAAM.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

roland
(Login ultrarep)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 7:17 PM 

Radec
you should compare Mica with R-77 or AMRAAM not with R-73,

yes and no: the MICA is Short AND Medium range. It notably replaces short range missiles Magic II.
And the R77 is Radar, on my list I've put only IR missiles.

and R-73 have one distinct advantage over the other missiles mentioned:
it was available some 20 years before Pyton-5, AIM-9X, IRIS-T and ASRAAM.


well the AIM-9X is the evolution of the Sidewinder that also existed 20 years before Pyton-5, AIM-9X, IRIS-T and ASRAAM.
We are speaking of the last evolutions of the R-73 here.

Here is a Rafale AA full MICA with supersonic tanks



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login dwightlooi)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 7:21 PM 

you should compare Mica with R-77 or AMRAAM not with R-73,
and R-73 have one distinct advantage over the other missiles mentioned:
it was available some 20 years before Pyton-5, AIM-9X, IRIS-T and ASRAAM.


The MICA is hard to classify. It is neither as large, as heavy or as long ranged as the AIM-120C7 or R-77 -- both believed or claimed to be 75 nm missiles. It is also not as light and small as the typical sidewinder class AAM, and it is probably not as agile or as capable of those lock-on after launch 180 degree U-turn engagements either. Add to the mix the fact that the MICA is available either as an RF or IR missile, and the lines get even more blurred. At the end of the day it is somewhat of a compromise -- a do it all missile -- but it may not do as well as the pure breed medium-extended AAMs or the dogfight missiles. The question is whether its capability in both cases are sufficient -- the French appears to be tout it has such but nobody seems to be buying the missile, so it is still very much an open question. The ability to carry just one type of AAM though has to be chalked up as an advantage.


Der Wille zur Macht!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 9:08 PM 

Well, I know that the compromise is a easy argument, we hear it sometime about the Rafale which is good in A2G so shouln't be so good in AA.

... but it's not an argument that the French who are modest, never arrogant, ... shy, would accept
(specially the weapon makers...)

In fact the Mica weight about the same as the other and is much lighter than the AMRAAM (150 Kg): 40 kg difference, not a bit.
So, thanks to vectoring thrust, 50g, over the shoulder capabilities, its as efficient as the other WVR missiles listed here in short range.

But it has about the same range as the AMRAAM.
It's possible, as far as I know, because it's propelled by a inovative propellant (bought to a German company Bayern Chimical)but also, ... also,...., because its light that's all!

Anyway, all those missiles are very close, after, everything depend on the seeker, ECCM, software, etc, which are among the most classified info.

BTW, i'm seeking for info about IIR seekers (first 'I' for 'Imaging' i-e they work on the IR image). How can they be decoyed?, can the LAN be jamed? what range accuracy is needed for a good chance when locked? How the image processor behave when the target make a tied turn showing though another image? how the behave when heavy lauch of chaft and flare?, etc...
If some ppl have link, they are wellcome.

regards

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Commando Mango
(Login Simon_Bolivar.)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 9:13 PM 

Actually the Mica can be classified if it is equipped with either an active radar and infra-red homing, providing a unique ability to select target-engagement options for both short and medium-range intercepts

--------------------------------------------

"DIOS Y VICTORIA"


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Kovy)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 9:33 PM 

Quote:
At the end of the day it is somewhat of a compromise -- a do it all missile --
but it may not do as well as the pure breed medium-extended AAMs or the dogfight missiles.
The question is whether its capability in both cases are sufficient


Well, the mica IR is said to be capable of "over the shoulder" shots when it is used with a HMD
thanks to its tvc and lock after launch capability. It is only slightly longer than the python V btw.

The only problem of the mica IR/EM is not to be a compromise (because it is not a compromise)...
but to be a damned expensive missile :

When you make a BVR shot, for exemple, you will probably not use the TVC and when you make a short range shot,
you waste the datalink capability. i don't see where is the compromise
here ... It is even quite the other way around.

Even if we can admit that it will turn less quicly during a 180° off boresight shot (because of its weight),
it will still probably have a bigger no-escape zone thanks to its range advantage.
Eventualy, they can be fired at up to 9G on the rafale and mirage 2000 wing pylones.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Commando Mango
(Login Simon_Bolivar.)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 9:43 PM 

The war-head of the Mica is a 12 kg HE blast fragmentation so it will do a hell of a job destroying the enemy air-craft.The Mica is really a BVR and WVVR missile roled into one and has an edge over the other missile in my opinion,Fire and forget all weather capibilty and at short ranges, thrust vector control provides superior agility, particularly necessary for high off-boresight engagements.

--------------------------------------------

"DIOS Y VICTORIA"


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

dwight looi
(Login dwightlooi)
Eagle Squadron (US)

well...

No score for this post
October 6 2005, 11:27 PM 

BTW, i'm seeking for info about IIR seekers (first 'I' for 'Imaging' i-e they work on the IR image). How can they be decoyed?, can the LAN be jamed? what range accuracy is needed for a good chance when locked? How the image processor behave when the target make a tied turn showing though another image? how the behave when heavy lauch of chaft and flare?, etc...
If some ppl have link, they are wellcome.


Traditional IR seekers do not see the target, all they see is a heat source. The seekers have one element -- some better ones have seven (arranged sort of like a hexagon). This is gimballed on a scanning seeker mounting. The missile is locked on when the target heat source is placed in the middle of the seeker. After launch, the missile simply tries to keep the heat source in the middle of the seeker. It knows when that is the case because the heat signature fades when it moves off center. In the early days, the missile simply looks for and latches onto the biggest heat source -- hence the missiles readily goes for the flares and even the sun! As technology progresses, the missiles are able to distinguish between the heat spectrum and intensity of the target it was cued onto and that of flares, the sun and most other things. There is a difference between the heat signatures of hot aircraft parts, exhaust plumes, flares, the sun, etc and the missile can be fine tuned to reject those things that are not likely to be the target. The last generation of mono-element missiles are good enough that unless a flare is able to duplicate the spectrum and intensity of the target they probably won't work. Some missiles (like the early R73s) also have the seeker-gimballed to allow high off-bore sight shots. In a way, non-imaging IR missiles are very much like X-band radar guided missiles in that the see a signature in form of an intensity at a certain spectrum but not an image of the target. The traditional missile hence typically do not impact the target (for example it may be looking for the exhaust plume and that may be at its most intense a meter or two behind the aircraft) but must frequently rely on a promixity fuse to catch the target in the blast radius of its warhead.

Imaging (or imagery) IR seekers have a focal plane array seeker which looks like your digital camera's CCD -- except of course they work in the IR spectrum. They actually see an image. This allows for easy distinction between a flare or some other hot object and a target aircraft. They are also accurate enough to actually impact the target most of the time and even pick the impact point in some cases. This is a definite improvement over traditional mon-element IR missiles which typically homes onto the hotest part of the target or the part emiting the specific IR spectrum it is designed to look for.

IIR seekers can be decoyed and jammed, however simply using flares won't do the trick. By actually having the ability to visualize the target's true geometry IIR missiles have a level of countermeasure rejection several magnitudes better than traditional IR missiles. The only effective way to decoy or jam the missile is by simply overpowering and blinding the IR seeker. This is usually done with a turreted laser or high intensity IR lamp. The IR Jammer locks on to the apporaching missile, tracks it and then focuses an IR beam at it that is so intense that the seeker is practically blinded. It'll be like you or your camera staring straight into a search light at night. However, this is a lot harder to do than ejecting flares. Most of these active IR jammers also have the ability of engaging only one missile at a time and are liable of losing lock on the target missile as the aircraft itself maneuvers.


Der Wille zur Macht!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login you-can-put-your-weed-in-there)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 7 2005, 2:39 AM 

I would go

Pytyhon5
Irist T
Sidewinder

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 7 2005, 12:32 PM 


Thanks dwight looi.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

polemistis
(Login polemistis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 7 2005, 5:01 PM 

probably MICA


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Kronicfool)
Satyameva Jayate (India)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
October 8 2005, 8:55 PM 


The Newver Version of the R-73E is no Slouch and the R-73 has evolved plenty since it first came out.





R.K. Laxman, India's renowned cartoonist, honours the hardy & humble Indian Jawan

AKA KRONICFEVER

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login Bourbonking)
WAFFer

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
November 4 2005, 6:02 PM 

Norway did choose IRIS-T over AIMX-9, where cost and performance apparantly was most important. But NAMMO is a part of the IRIS-T team, and this could had some influence on the choice.

This video shows a RNoAF F-16 MLU firing an IRIS-T missile, including video from the new Pantera (Sniper) pod and the Helmet Mounted Cuing System (notice that the pilot are looking a bit to the rigth when firing the missile).

Edit: The music is from the first video in this thread



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login magnum99)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
November 4 2005, 6:59 PM 

MICA should be good against stealth aircraft, to take them out at BVR ranges (~70km) without a radar (using IR instead).


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login dwightlooi)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Interesting thing...

No score for this post
November 4 2005, 7:09 PM 

The coupled tail fin actuation and thrust vectoring system on the AIM-9X and the IRIS-T is so similar that I won't be surprised if it is the same unit! Add to that the fact that they used the same contractor for the tail-control/thrust vectoring component Allied Signal - Textron Lycoming and it becomes even less likely to be a mere design coincidence!

AIM-9X




IRIS-T





Der Wille zur Macht!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

GoItaly
(Login GoItaly)
WAFFer

Re: Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5

No score for this post
November 5 2005, 5:38 PM 

FYI- the IRIS-T and AIM-9X use the same seeker.

-----------------------------

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Current Topic - Best Air 2 Air missile: IRIS-T vs. AIM-9X vs. Python 5  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
WAFF recommends these sites

Indian Defence Analysis      [Definitive Lapse of Reason]