WAFF Vet Club[Click here to Join WAFF!] WAFF Moderators Forum
General Discussion
(The Den)
The World's Armed Forces Forum History, Politics, Economics and Religion Forum
Greece & Turkey Defence Forum Europe, Middle East & Africa
Defence Forum
Asia & Pacific Defence Forum
Help, Suggestions & Complaints
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

F125 - Time for more detailed information

November 2 2005 at 1:40 AM
No score for this post

West  (Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

The F125-frigates were some kind of myth in the last years. The name was often heard, but only few informations were available. This changed in the last month. The official request aimed for a contract in 2006, and a offer in July 2005. The ARGE F125 Design is now in official discussion and well within the timeline. Of course, we have to wait about half a year for the definitive design, but these first studies are more than we have seen in the last years.



The new Frigates will be used for stabilizing operations and will lead to real land-attack-capabilities together with the possibility to use special forces all over the world for the german navy.

Length: 139m
Width: 18m
Sea Endurance: 21 days
Mission Endurance: 24 month
Range: 4.000 nm
Displacement: 5.000 ts
Cruising Speed: 20 kn
Maximum Speed: 26 kn

The basic crew will be reduced from ~200 to ~100 in comparison with F124, but it will have the capability to host two complete crews. Next to this it has enough space to accomodate a 50 men strong crew of special forces together with rooms for mission planning and control. On deck is space for two standard-container for additional equipment or technology. The ship will also provide bigger rescue rooms and sick bays than found on actual frigates.
For transport uses they can use the two MH-90 helicopter and four 33ft-speed-boats.



The weapon systems installed enable the ship to fight land, air and sea targets as well as asymmetric attacks. The 76mm-guns used on F122-F124 will be replaced by Monarc, the ship base variant of the PzH2000. There is also a possibility that a navalized version of MLRS will be installed.




VLS and AShM are placed to fight air and sea targets (i believe it will be RBS 15 Mk3 with LA-capability), and a lot of 'small arms' for asymmetric warfare, 2 MLG, 5 12.7mm HMG (automatic) and 2 12.7mm MG.



The sensor suite consists of standard-components, APAR, new generation sonar, but also special equipment for asymmetric warfare, under-water-drones, electro-optical-systems, IR-tracker with weapon control capability even against targets direct next to the ship.



Combined Diesel, Electric and Gas is the new propulsion concept. Four diesel engines, which can be placed all over the ship, will give energy for ship systems as well as for two electric engines. With them a speed of 20 knots will be possible, for higher speed the gas turbine will be coupled. This concept enables the ship to stretch maintenance from 6 month on F124 to 24 month on F125. It will also reduce costs for fuel and maintenance.

Of course, the design can and will change during the actual discussion, but it is interesting to see the first images and read the specifications. The current contract plans will go for 4 frigates, allthough 8 are needed not only to replace all F122 but also to fulfill the operational needs. At the moment there is no official plan how these gap will be filled. There are several rumours, some seems to indicate that 4 F122 will be modernized to serve some more years with a replacement of 6 frigates for these 4 F122 and the 4 F123, some say that the F125-concept was chosen to build eight of them, and there are even some who say that the navy waits to see how good K130 does her duty to build a number of K131 to reduce F122 and the FACs (by the way, there are even plans for new FAC, nobody believes that some years ago and it is still very unofficial). But these are speculations right now, the F125 will come, and thats her topic.


Sources:
http://www.marineforum.info/HEFT_11-2005/F125/f125.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/missiles/mauser/mauser3.html

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

OakRidge
(Login OakRidge)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 1:54 AM 

Very nice.



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

GoItaly
(Login GoItaly)
WAFFer

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 2:11 AM 

Beautiful! Will the radar be some kind of phased array like on the Horizon cruisers?

-----------------------------

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 2:22 AM 

They will most likely use APAR, without Smart-L of course.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

OakRidge
(Login OakRidge)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 2:36 AM 

What is the exact mission of the frigate?



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:44 AM 

Stabilizing operations

sea control in asymmetric warfare, homebase for special operation, evacuating missions, land attack, and of course traditional operations like surface and sub-surface warfare.

Enduring Freedom is the most important naval operation of the last years and it seems that this kind of missions will increase in future. The new concepts credit these new tasks. For example, at the moment the maximum operation endurance for our frigate is six month before they need maintenance that can not be provided in foreign countries. Because of that we have a high rotation, imagine, you need two weeks to sail form germany to djibouti, and of course two weeks back from there to here. So there are only five month left. In two years, you need five rotations, and you sail about 48.000 nautical miles just to go there and come back! With this new ship the only thing you need to do is fly every six month new crew down to africa, and the ship can stay there for about two years. So, overall you do it with one ship instead of two, with about a quarter of the crew, with sailing about 40.000 miles less, with higher security for the crew and without loosing any capability.
Second, we have no real platform for bigger special forces operations. The other frigates are to small to accomodate more than a small group, and our replenishment ships have not the capability to plan and control such missions. With this frigate the situation will change. 50 men a enough for most special operations, they can use two modern helicopter and four large speed boats, and if the situation needs fire support, no problem for that. Monarc with a range of 70+km and RBS 15 with a range of 200km will do this job.
Of course, that is not comparable to what other navies can do, but don't forget that it is 'just' a frigate of 139m length. For that i believe this is quiet impressive.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

OakRidge
(Login OakRidge)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:46 AM 

So this ship has somewhat the same mission as the French La Fayette class frigate?



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:52 AM 

Not really. La Fayette seems to be a light frigate for sea control, but not for special operations (special forces, evacuation), land attack or humanitarian aid.
You can't compare these two ships, la fayette has a longer sea endurance and higher range, but therefore lacks mission endurance and weapon capabilities.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

OakRidge
(Login OakRidge)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 5:16 AM 

I thought I read that one of the La Fayette's missions was to evacuate french citizens from overseas colonies.



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 5:23 AM 

Well, the la fayette class is a little bit small to accomodate a higher number of people, it also has only one helicopter and as far as i know the normal medical equipment found on every frigate. There is also a difference between bigger special forces operations (as i said with up to 50 soldiers) and 'just evacuation'. There are some missions that these frigates have in common, but that is the same for a lot of frigates out there.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Rob
(Login ThebetterRob)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 6:00 AM 

Nice. Germany will get eight right, replacing the Bremen Klasse F122. What is the supposed price tag?

generated by sloganizer.net

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 6:05 AM 

Acutal four are official planned yet, as i said in the first post. And the expected price will be something around 465 million euro each.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Loup
(Login LoupGaroux)
WAFFer

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 9:16 AM 

Thanks for the info. I can understand the earlier rumours about its similarity with the Danish F370.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login GER_Mark)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 12:21 PM 

what happend to meko x8000 ?


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:40 PM 

Nothing happend to it, as expected. It was more or less clear that we are not going to buy eight Meko X, and it is good to see that they have not tried to make so downgraded version.

It is interesting to see different concepts integrated in a design that is not bigger than F124. Now let's see what will happen with it before the contracts are signed.


    
This message has been edited by Westfale on Nov 2, 2005 4:41 PM


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Reaver180
(Login Reaver180)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:46 PM 

With APAR, VLS and land attack missiles? I believe it when I see it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Reaver180
(Login Reaver180)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 4:47 PM 

Btw. Is MONARC already selected? I never heard anything definitive?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

West
(Login Westfale)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 5:10 PM 

Why not? That they install APAR is very realistic, the VLS is standard since F123, and the navy has selected RBS.15 as AshM for K130 and i do not believe that they change their opinion with these new ships. The only thing i can't believe is the installation of MLRS-rocket lancher.
Monarc is part of the offer, it was tested without big press in the last years and as far as i know the problems were solved very early. But you know what can happen in politics...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Reaver180
(Login Reaver180)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 5:29 PM 

"Why not?"

We both know why, the money....
Do you remember what we were supposed to get?
4 F 124 --> down to 3
15 K 130 --> only 5 ordered until now, total silence on the rest and they are supposed to replace 30!!! FACs.
12 U 212A --> now down to 6, if we are lucky 8. And it was supposed to be 12.
Still no news on Global Hawk with regards to the replacement of the Atlantique in the SIGINT role.
ETRUS quietly swept under the rug.
Polyphem, so much money spent for nothing.

No, I am veeeeeery careful.

" That they install APAR is very realistic, the VLS is standard since F123, and the navy has selected RBS.15 as AshM for K130 and i do not believe that they change their opinion with these new ships."

The RBS is another strange selection IMO, but anyway APAR withoul SMART-L is only half as good and will offer only self-protection ability. And the K 130 is crap as it is, I hope they have some plans to make it a useable vessel at least in batch 2.

"The only thing i can't believe is the installation of MLRS-rocket lancher."

I'm willing to bet that they meant a VLS and made a mistake in the article. Still, the thought of an ATACMS launched from a ship is amusing...

"Monarc is part of the offer, it was tested without big press in the last years and as far as i know the problems were solved very early. But you know what can happen in politics..."

Very much sadly. I heard horror stories that the F 125 won't have sonar, no VLS and basically be a ship "fitted-for-but-not-with" and all that crap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login GER_Mark)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: F125 - Time for more detailed information

No score for this post
November 2 2005, 5:38 PM 

well those downsize in numbers came when red-green coalition started and they minimized defence budget, even if its not a lot but it will grow 0.9 billion in 2006we will see what cdu can reach, it is still unknown what the surplus income of the more worth tax will be used for(maybe some billion for army ?) since cdu is in goverment again

and 15 k130 are a big number since most countrys would clasify them as frigates


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
 
< Previous Page 1 2 Next >
  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
WAFF recommends these sites

Indian Defence Analysis      [Definitive Lapse of Reason]