*UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes
An intensive secret programme of development work on a series of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) has been disclosed by BAE Systems. The company said in...
17-Feb-2006
Being conservative and assuming that this includes two Ravens, Corax and Herti that still leaves two UAVs that have previously been classified (or at least open secrets).
If only there was someone here who had a subscription to Jane's (hint hint)
This message has been edited by RM-Nod on Feb 20, 2006 4:50 PM This message has been edited by RM-Nod on Feb 19, 2006 5:00 PM This message has been edited by RM-Nod on Feb 19, 2006 4:58 PM
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MARK DALY Editor Jane's International Defence Review London
* The UK has developed six completely new UAV systems
* The aircraft use an autonomous mission system
* Herti-1A made the first UK autonomous flight of an unmanned aerial system in UK airspace in 2005
An intensive secret programme of development work on a series of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) has been disclosed by BAE Systems.
The company said in London on 16 February that six completely new UAV systems have been tested in the UK and Australia over a three-year period.
The disclosure was partly prompted by the emergence of the Defence Industrial Strategy document at the end of 2005, which in turn had led to the limited release of some photographs of a UAV demonstrator called Corax.
Now BAE has reported that proof of concept work has been conducted since 2001 on advanced configuration air vehicles with a blended wing body design and a flush air data system and advanced flight control systems. The design, which emerged from this process was called Kestrel. This design then led to two further experimental air vehicles called Raven and Corax.
A main feature of these vehicles was the use of an autonomous mission system. This system was next integrated into an existing airframe, Herti-D, a Polish composite glass-fibre design from J&AS Aero, purchased by BAE Systems.
With the new mission system, Herti-1A emerged and it was this air vehicle that made the first fully autonomous flight of an unmanned system in UK airspace. This was completed on 18 August 2005 from Campbeltown Airport in Scotland, starting with a mouse click command to start the flight, leading to an autonomous mission over Machrihanish Bay and finishing with an automatic landing.
The particular significance of this flight, say the company, was that it was made from an operational commercial airport rather than from a military base, or on a closed missile range. The UK Civil Aviation Authority authorised the test flight with Herti-1A carrying a B-class registration (an aircraft registration allocated to manufacturers for test flights).
Herti-1A is the main focus of the company's near-term plan, with civil/military applications such as coastal watch duties, border surveillance and pipeline patrol being sought. By the end of this year 10 air vehicles will be completed, two powered by BMW engines and the rest with quieter four-cylinder Rotax turbocharged fuel injection motors. The company claims that the small Herti airframe is "virtually invisible at 5,000 ft".
Sensors can comprise three cameras integrated into BAE System's Imagery Collection and Exploitation System payload package.
This message has been edited by spider034 on Feb 20, 2006 6:36 AM
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Great! I hope they'll sell a lot of Hertis, wonder where they'll build them. Woodford would need the work really with Warton/Samlesbury safe for the next two decades or so and Brough not going out of businees for the next decade or so thanks to the Hawk.
So there are Kestrel, Raven, Corax, Herti. If Mr. Turner reads this site: I WANT PICTURES!
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This may be old news and a little off topic, but it maybe why we did not pick up this topic earlier.
I was using Google to search for other related articles on the UK UAVs and was surprised to find that Google News does not find articles published in JDW. (Of course they are there when using Google to search the web.)
Try searching Google News with: - jdw.janes.com, for anytime, with safe filter off and you get no returns.
The same happens with “Jane's Defence Weekly”. The only hits are references in other newspapers to Jane’s original report.
Try searching on a quotation from a known JDW article such as section of the phrase "An intensive secret programme of development work on a series of unmanned aerial vehicles", and Google News gives no hits.
However searching on “Flight International”, brings up all the articles.
The trouble appears to be in Google’s definition of a “news source”, some specialist publications must be excluded.
This post is just a “heads up” that using Google News to search for defence related topics may result in you missing breaking news.
This is a pain because it is much easier to narrow the date range for the search in Google News rather than use Google to search the web, where the best date filter is “last 3 months” and also the results cannot be ordered by date.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I think this is why I missed the original post in JDW last week.
Am I being dumb or have I just been "Googled".
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Edit - One thing that's got me is that none of these sound as though they look anything like the various concepts that have been produced by BAE over the years.
Well let's see how they look like in real. But really those are only pictures, they might have soon relaized that they want to go Kestrel design and just not published the "winning" design and they then just published a lot of "maybes". The BAe/MDD/NG JSF contender looked on artists impressions differently than the acutal design.
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Yeah but most of these came after 2001, strange to have concept art that shows vehicles that are nothing like what is being worked on. I wonder whether these represent other BAE ambitions.
I'd imagine the demonstrators will just be based on airframes built by J&AS Aero but I doubt the company would have the production capacity to build large numbers so if BAE do go ahead with a commercial Herti UAV based on that airframe then they'd probably licence it and produce it themselves, or just repackage the mission systems and sensors into something else.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 4:52 PM
Tornado GR4 Will Fly With Active E-SCAN Radar
By Douglas Barrie
02/19/2006 03:54:26 PM
OUT OF THE SHADOWS
Britain, working under a blanket of secrecy, has been test-flying an unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator since late 2003 as part of a broader technology initiative to develop its next-generation of long-range deep-strike platforms.
The BAE Systems Raven low-observable unmanned combat air vehicle design first flew on Dec. 17, 2003--100 years to the day after the Wright Brothers--a date selected in part to reflect the significance of the event for the company's future strategy.
The import of the British Defense Ministry's clearance for BAE to begin to discuss the Raven also plays into the far wider issue of U.K. collaboration in developing an operational UCAV. Britain had signed up for Washington's now defunct Joint-Unmanned Combat Air System, with a transatlantic acquisition program likely to follow. Continuing--and, some British sources suggest, worsening--problems with British access on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program also play into this arena.
Raven underscores the U.K.'s national capability in UCAV developments--and that it is not beholden to Washington, or for that matter, anywhere--in pursuing such systems. A full-scale UCAV technology demonstration program is due to be launched by London this year, building on Raven, and other, still classified, research and development work.
Defense Ministry sources have previously confirmed the U.K. is funding the development of what they dubbed "nugget technologies" that would provide the government "leverage" in any collaborative environment. Examples of such technology include low observables (LO), autonomous operation and sensor integration.
TWO RAVEN AIRFRAMES HAVE BEEN BUILT and test flown using the Woomera Range in Australia. The choice of site reflects the sensitivity surrounding the program, while also providing near-guaranteed acceptable flying weather.
The Defense Ministry has been funding BAE's LO research into future air systems since at least the early 1990s. Initially aimed at a manned replacement for the Tornado GR4 strike aircraft, through the Testbed stealth aircraft non-flying demonstrator, the emphasis began to shift to LO UCAV and unmanned recon air vehicle platforms even before the Testbed program was completed in 1999. BAE's Nightjar I and Nightjar II ministry-funded research examined a number of airframe bodies using the company's radar cross-section range at its Warton site.
The jet-powered Raven's blended wing-body airframe, with outer wing control surfaces aligned with the trailing edge, reduces radio-frequency scattering. The lack of vertical or horizontal control surfaces also helps reduce the radar cross-section.
The vehicle is manufactured from carbon-fiber composite, with the fuselage shell produced at BAE's Samlesbury site in the northwest of England. This facility also produces composite structures for the F-35.
Raven fed into BAE's work on the Defense Ministry's Future Offensive Air System (FOAS) program. In 1997, the ministry launched study work into the role a "UAV" might have in meeting the FOAS deep-strike mission. The Strategic UAV (Experiment) (SUAVE) succeeded FOAS in 2005. Rolls-Royce and Smiths Aerospace also are involved in ongoing risk-reduction work for the ministry on SUAVE, building on the Raven.
BAE flew a remotely piloted blended-wing demonstrator, the Kestrel, in 2002, Andy Wilson, BAE director of sales, autonomous airborne systems, says. Raven, however, was intended to explore autonomous flight operation using a "highly aerodynamically unstable" airframe. The UCAV demonstrator has a duplex digital flight control system.
BAE is exploring modularity in its approach to UCAV/URAV and UAVs. Raven shares the same central fuselage shell as the Corax strategic reconnaissance URAV design, with a common flight control system. Corax, however, has a high-aspect ratio wing optimized for high-altitude long-endurance flight. Such a wing also lends itself to being fitted with a conformal array radar antenna, if blending and flexing issues can be resolved. As with Raven, the airframe was aerodynamically unstable, and part of the program was to look at autonomous control of such a design. Similar schemes, such as the U.S. Darkstar, have suffered controllability issues.
Both Raven and Corax are sub-scale airframes--and although the company is unable yet to release size data on either air vehicle, Corax has a 30-ft.-plus wingspan.
A Corax-style URAV could form a part of the Dabinett requirement. This program is looking at the U.K.'s future intelligence surveillance target acquisition and reconnaissance (Istar) needs. Part of this covers what is sometimes referred to as the Long-Range Long-Endurance or global surveillance capability that could be fulfilled by a strategic low-observable UAV. Research into space-based radar is also ongoing.
SUAVE cuts across two of the Defense Ministry's Equipment Capability Directorates, Deep Target Attack and Istar. The Deep Target Attack directorate has asked that industry examine a number of UCAV-related areas, both in terms of design and development, and operations.
While Raven and Corax are sub-scale airframes, industry and ministry officials are discussing whether the next-technology demonstrator should be a full-scale airframe. This program would include an internal weapons carriage and deployment. One point under review is whether a full-size UCAV airframe is actually necessary to achieve this.
The government's Defense Industrial Strategy policy document, published in December 2005, notes: "Building on the success of these programs [Raven] we intend to move forward . . . with a more substantial TDP designed to give us and industry a better understanding of key technologies of [broader] relevance to UAVs and UCAVs."
BAE is not only focusing on UCAV and URAV development. Its Herti family of air vehicles is intended to provide a medium-altitude long-endurance surveillance capability. The Herti 1A design has endurance well in excess of 25 hr., and an operational radius of more than 540 naut. mi., says Wilson. This version of Herti has a wingspan of 41 ft., with a glass-fiber fuselage. The system becomes autonomous on the runway.
HERTI HAS BEEN TEST FLOWN with an electro-optical payload in a chin-mounted turret, and flight trials using lightweight synthetic aperture radar will likely be carried out later this year, Wilson adds. Rail-launch trials of the vehicle are also being considered. The system uses image-processing algorithms to automatically identify areas, or objects, of interest, as part of its imagery collection and exploitation system.
The company believes Herti, which has been flying from Machrihanish in southwest Scotland, has clear applications for military and civil surveillance roles.
Not sure what the title of the article has to do with anything, it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. If true though it'd be very interesting to see whether this will be the Vixen500E or whatever.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 5:47 PM
I'd say Raven.
Some interesting information from FI, apparently Herti-D was jet powered!
BAE boosts UAV programme with manufacturing drive
Demonstrator success pushes effort to expand project and seek export buyers
BAE Systems has launched a major expansion of its unmanned air vehicle activities, with the formation of a new Autonomous Systems and Future Capability (Air) organisation and approval to initiate a major manufacturing drive that will see 10 of its Herti-1A demonstrators flying by the end of 2006.
The propeller-driven UAV is to undergo a substantial increase to its flight-test campaign this year, with two BMW-engined prototypes to be joined by a further eight company-funded air vehicles powered by Rotax engines. BAE late last year provided first details of the 450kg (990lb) UAV, which conducted its first fully autonomous mission last August. Test objectives for this year include managing up to four air vehicles simultaneously using one ground control station and possibly flying with a Selex-supplied lightweight synthetic-aperture radar payload.
The Herti-1A success marked the culmination of a three-year effort that also included sorties of a remotely-piloted Kestrel blended wing-body demonstrator, two unmanned combat air vehicle-like Raven airframes, a derivative Corax reconnaissance platform and a jet-powered Herti-1D. “We have been doing a fair amount of experimentation work for some time and have got some very viable platforms out of that,” says Andy Wilson, sales and marketing director for the Military Autonomous Systems (Air) unit. “In the past three years we have picked out some of the absolutely core technologies.”
BAE is promoting Herti for military and civilian tasks including reconnaissance, surveillance, border patrol, pipeline monitoring and disaster management – targeting a potentially massive sector of the UAV market currently “not dominated by any brand, country or product,” says Wilson.
The Herti-1A has a 12.6m (41ft) wingspan and a projected endurance of around 30h. The company is also marketing an Imagery Collection and Exploitation payload, which Wilson says can pass compressed electro-optic images via a low-bandwidth datalink “not unlike your mobile phone line”.
UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 6:18 PM
I have been digging.
Gliding & Motorgliding International
By Gillian (Bryce-Smith)
Issue 4/2001
“The J6 Fregata
The J6 Fregata motorglider from Poland has emerged from a collaboration between Wojciech Jeriorski and designer and manufacturer Jaroslaw Janowski, who heads J & AS Aero Design Ltd.
This interesting aircraft, which uses a redesigned Honda 52hp at 6000rpm motorboat engine, flies at 191km/h with a fuel consumption of six to eight litres per hour.
This gives enough power for take-off and has a fuel capacity of 60 litres. Its wingspan is 12.55m with a maximum weight of 410kg.
The LD is around 20 to 22:1 and in 160 hours of test flying it has soared well in thermals and wave.
Three experimental Fregata’s have been built and the aircraft is awaiting a JAR 22 certification.
I think that Gillian has got the “Designer” and “Manufacturer” the wrong way around.
Poland has lots of experience in building gliders in GRP (and refinishing older gliders).
The last aircraft built in this fashion by the UK was the Slingsby Firefly, which first flew in 1982 (and before that was the Vega glider, which ceased production in 1982.).
The airframes could be being built in Poland and supplied as kits, and or by Slingsby. I doubt that BAE Systems is manufacturing the airframe in house; I think they are procuring a COTS airframe.
My Avatar is my Jantar glider built in Poland (landed in a field in Scotland). I have shares in two Jantars. Our club as three Junior gliders also built in Poland. Last year we had two of our K21 two seat gliders re-furbished/repaired in Poland. I visited two factories in Poland last year and the AMS Flight in Slovenia that produces DG (German) designed gliders the year before.
The manufacturing process in very labour intensive that is why much of the manufacturing has been moved to the eastern EU countries. The quality is very good.
If the "smart bits" are confined to the fuselage it should be easy to keep the cost of the basic airframe down to £35k, allowing £5k for the engine makes for a very cheap package.
(If requested I can explain and provide links to how such craft are manufactured, and how plug-n-play wings are easy).
BTW: the birds on the wings are not ravens but buzzards.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 6:21 PM
Thanks for the info! I also think that they'll build them new. The question is if BAe wants to have the building in house or has to have it in house (assuming they're assuming that Herti sells well they need a good production capability which can deliver good amounts, besides even production brings some profit I would imagine)
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UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 7:13 PM
2 Rob
I do not agree with some of your points.
The Herti-1a is a stubby, very short wings, 10m is easy, at present we can do 30m.
The airframe is the cheap part, even at 30m only £100k+ for a 60:1 glide ratio, the smarts in the middle are where the profits are to be made.
The basic airframe cannot easily be produce in UK, because we do not have the skills required and because the labour costs are too large.
We shall be involved in the design, but there is no chance we could compete for production of the basic airframe. (We might hold the design rights and provide FOC the moulds required to make the basic components).
Lets just do what we do best and let others have their slice of the cake.
[If you want to fly some high performance plastic I could arrange that too].
Chris
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 7:26 PM
Raven looks really cool!
Don't expect a certain Frenchman to respond to this thread...He's already seen it and been rushed to hospital with an aneurysm, apparently he hasn't yet stopped murmuring "TWIST&SPIN&TWIST&SPIN&TWIST&SPIN....." let's say a prayer for him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ipsa scientia potestas est.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 8:22 PM
He probably is terribly shocked, but if something is remarkable about him then his ability to turn a blind eye on the given facts and just pretend he was right all along. I think this week will be terrible for him, first Raven etc... then perhaps soon the Saudi deal, then reports of Tornados with active EScan Radars.....oh I fear the worst for the favourite forum clown.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 8:45 PM
@Chris:
At time of writing I didn't know that the Polish firm still builds them, so yes BAe might just subcontract them even though I hope they'll build them themselves.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 20 2006, 9:22 PM
Hi all i am new here i havent figure out how to use this board yet. but i herd the uk was building its own stealth plane called halo does anyone now if this is true
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 1:01 AM
Haha - where the hell is Thunder anyway, I was expecting a massive flame war with LOTS of copied/pasted pictures of the Neuron and broken-english insults hurled in all directions...
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 1:04 PM
Raven looks cooler from a material point of view, was Corax composites or just aluminium (they probably couldn't be bothered to build a composite on for a subscale strategic UAV)?
Is it known to someone if the second Raven has an other configuration (wings?)?
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BAE Unveils First UAV
By ANDREW CHUTER, LONDON
February 20, 2006
BAE SYSTEMS plans to enter the unmanned air vehicle (UAV) market with a version of its High Endurance Rapid Technology Insertion, or HERTI, platform married to a company-developed image collection and exploitation (ICE) payload.
BAE hopes to offer a low-cost, autonomous UAV to customers around the end of this year, said Andy Wilson, the sales and marketing director of a new BAE business unit known as Autonomous Systems & Future Capability (Air).
Initially, the company wants to target military and civil surveillance markets. The ICE system already has been flight tested with optical sensors; tests are planned for infrared and lightweight synthetic aperture radar sensors.
Last August, the propeller-powered HERTI-1A achieved the first fully autonomous flight of an unmanned system in U.K. airspace, Wilson said. Four UAVs are in the test program at present, but that number will increase to 10 vehicles by year’s end.
The HERTI platform is derived from a Polish motor glider design. It has a wingspan of 12.6 meters and can take off from paved or grass runways. The company also is looking at possible rail launch options.
With the original BMW engine, endurance is 25 hours, with a ceiling of 20,000 feet and a range of 1,000 kilometers with a 145-kilogram payload. Wilson says BAE is fitting a new Rotax powerplant, which will improve performance.
BAE detailed its UAV activities for the first time here on Feb. 16. The Ministry of Defence (MoD), in its defense industrial strategy white paper last December, lifted the veil on some previously secret work by the company.
The white paper said the MoD intended to contract a BAE-led team to undertake a demonstrator program to test key UAV and unmanned combat aircraft technologies.
Wilson said Rolls-Royce and Smiths Aerospace are part of the team, but Thales UK, which leads the MoD’s Watchkeeper UAV program, was not.
BAE admitted to flying six different UAV designs in the past three years, including a strategic intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance vehicle known as Corax, which looks similar to Lockheed Martin’s Darkstar platform.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:21 PM
A bit more news;
*AA 2006: BAE Systems plans production-type Herti UAV
BAE Systems expects to produce 10 more airframes for its Herti-1A unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) by the end of 2006, and is preparing to offer ...
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:28 PM
I guess we'll get more info on thursday with final results coming out. Btw thunder is back I spotted him in another forum. just hope he leaves this one in peace.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:38 PM
lol I'm sort of looking forward to see what he has to say, I'm getting bored with agreeing with people all the time
Just to stir up a bit of debate what do ya'll think the MoD should do with this new UCAV demonstrator, full scale, sub scale? What would be adequate, what would be best?
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:45 PM
Well the more money the better. So I'm hopin for a full scale UCAV with stealth and full autonomy [obviously] and a internal weapons bay. Really like a UK Neuron. I'm still wondering why they built two. Perhaps to have one spare if one crashes, perhaps to speed up flight trials.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:54 PM
True but you have to remember that the X-45A is technically a sub scale aircraft. If enough savings can be made by having a smaller lighter aircraft (by reducing the amount of RAM you need, having cheaper landing gear etc) then perhaps BAE could build a UCAV and larger URAV (Corax) with the money. You don't need something the size of Neuron to demonstrate the technologies required. Not knowing how much could be saved by doing this I wouldn't like to say definitively whether this could be done by I do think there is something to be said for a subscale aircraft, I wouldn't judge the decision to go ahead with something like that as necessarily a bad choice.
Also I wonder whether BAE is developing any sub-MALE UAV's, i.e. tactical, miniature and nano systems. Perhaps they'll just let there US arm do this side of the work.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 3:59 PM
That might be true but knowing UK politicians they wouldn't make sensible choices if a subscale UCAV could test everything adequately the remaining money would probably be wasted somewhere else instead of going to further development work. Let's see I think I'll be happy if it's worth more than 100 Million Pounds. Personally I think BAe will further develop Corax as there [unlike for UCAVs] is a near term UK market for it for perhaps 10 systems or so and the export market seems to be warming up to UAVs so really it's time to gte into UAV/UCAVs pronto.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 4:03 PM
Yeah it'd probably go into some lovely new wallpaper for some offices at Abbey Wood, don’t scoff it’s an essential defence requirement!
I’d like to know how a full scale Corax would compare to Global Hawk. I think I’ll have to wait a while though; they don’t even want to give out details of its size.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 21 2006, 4:11 PM
They're now saying 10m + in most articles, BAE press releases don't give out any information at all on the size so it's probably around 10m but could be more or a bit less.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 12:21 PM
Bigger pictures of Raven;
I've also had some interesting information about Kestrel, though BAE began UAV demonstrator development in 2001 (following previous work from 1997 and 1993) Kestrel only flew for the first time in 2003. Corax and Raven also both flew in 2003, that's a very fast development time so I'd bet that Kestrel is very similar to Raven.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 12:43 PM
The right wing looks like having a stronger sweep for a future UCAV with high speeds in mind, whilst the left one might be for optimising stealth. Just my extremly vage assumptions. Probably is the perspecive though.
This message has been edited by ThebetterRob on Feb 23, 2006 12:44 PM
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 12:48 PM
I'm fairly sure its just perspective, after all they have two Ravens to work with so they could just as easily use the second to test a different wing. Then again maybe they wanted to see how adaptable to FCS software was, that has been the focus of some testing. They even took the system from the Raven and stuck into the Corax and had it flying perfectly well within the same day. I believe it's also the same system that's in both HERTI vehicles (D and A).
Edit - I wonder why Thunder isn't posting anymore, you sure you saw him online the other day?
UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 1:55 PM
Interesting control surfaces.
Two split trailing edges surfaces on each wing and two spoilers mounted above and below the wings close to the wing tip.
You can see the lower port spoiler in the Aviation Week photograph.
I imagine that the spoilers provide yaw control, in lieu of a rudder and also counter act the affect of adverse yaw.
Looking closely at the Aviation Week photograph the starboard trailing edge control surfaces are both lowered together and the port ones are slightly raised. (i.e. roll to starboard) The adverse yaw generated by the port wing is countered by the port spoilers being deployed more that the starboard pair.
In the second picture the aircraft is flying straight and climbing. The trailing edge control surfaces are neutral. It is odd that the spoilers are still deployed equally on both wings.
It could be that at low speed the extra drag at the tips improves spiral stability. (It worked that way on all aircraft types that I have flown with spoilers/wing mounted airbrakes.)
It is difficult to be sure but it looks like the spoilers will disrupt the airflow over the outer portion of trailing edge control surface. This is odd because it will lead to cross coupling between the spoilers and the trailing edge control surfaces. Usually at low speed the wing is designed so that outer portion of the wing is the last part of the wing to stall so that roll authority is maintained as the wing starts to stall.
Having a swept back wing this aircraft is designed to fly at high speeds. The odd positioning of the spoilers, blanking the trailing edge control surfaces may be an adaptation to improve low speed performance, but I do not understand the mechanism.
I have had a look at the Corax picture but I cannot determine if spoilers are fitted or not.
As to size, all of the craft appear to share the same control package. By comparing the size on the antenna mounted on the Herti-1a, where the canopy would have been on the J-6, and knowing that the wingspan of the J-6 was 12.55m, I think your estimate of 5m by 4m may be a little too small.
My estimates: -
Herti-1a wingspan 12.55m length 6.5m
Kestrel wingspan 7m length 5.5m
Corax wingspan 11m length 5.5m
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 2:25 PM
As to size, all of the craft appear to share the same control package. By comparing the size on the antenna mounted on the Herti-1a, where the canopy would have been on the J-6, and knowing that the wingspan of the J-6 was 12.55m, I think your estimate of 5m by 4m may be a little too small.
My estimates: -
Herti-1a wingspan 12.55m length 6.5m
Kestrel wingspan 7m length 5.5m
Corax wingspan 11m length 5.5m
Yeah wasn't totally sure so it might well be larger than what I guessed.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 3:48 PM
Yeah they do all use the same control package, never thought of looking at that. Good idea.
Although the other aircraft is Raven not Kestrel, as far as I know pictures of Kestrel are only just being released though none have made there way onto the internet yet.
UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 3:56 PM
Quote:
Although the other aircraft is Raven not Kestrel, as far as I know pictures of Kestrel are only just being released though none have made there way onto the internet yet
Sorry just a slip of the brain, I meant Raven; we now seem to have so many to choose from, its difficult to remember them all.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 4:12 PM
Hope there'll be more info soon, it seems very interesting. How would you guys rank the current European UCAV efforts? I think Saab/BAe are pretty damn good with EADS being a bit of a black horse and Dassault having had a good start but at least officially nothing new has come out for some time. Alenia is probably the least advanced with the Sky-X.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 7:14 PM
Chris,
Forgive me if this is a stupid question but in what way do you mean the wing fairing panels are different?
Rob
It’s difficult to tell really, there’s been quite a bit of secrecy around all of them;
• EADS, along with BAE, has been the most secretive of all and I’d be surprised if Barrakuda is the first vehicle EADS has produced. Especially since Germany has had a future airborne weapons system programme running for about as long as the UK has had FOAS etc. Having said that Barrakuda doesn’t seem to be as aerodynamically advanced as other European concepts such as the AVE-C, BAE series demonstrators, though far be it for me to come to conclusions based on that, I still have a lot to learn in that regard. Overall I think Germany is probably in the middle ground at least.
• BAE has definitely jumped up in the past few weeks in my opinion. It definitely has one of the biggest publicly known experience bases to work from, at least in regards to stealthy UAVs. Current work builds on over $200m worth of work since 1997, that doesn’t include money invested by industry or work carried out between 1993 and 1997 (FOA) which could potentially bring that figure up to over $300m. They also have a known portfolio of six demonstrators in this area from Replica to Raven. In addition they’re also drawing on work from FLAVIIR which could potentially yield very wide reaching results in terms of aircraft control, with benefits for aircraft RCS, affordability, maintainability etc. I also think BAE also has at least one other UAV that hasn’t been talked about, they have said that the first and second stage of there UAV demonstration programme (running from 2001) focused on proving the concept of a semi-autonomous, blended wing body design with flush air data system and advanced flight control system. However this was done in 2001 while Kestrel was done in stage 3 and didn’t fly until 2003. I can see how an airframe concept can be demonstrated on the ground but the fact that it supposedly had a flush air data system, advanced flight control system and was semi-autonomous suggests to me that it was something that flew. If a major TDP contract can be signed with government soon then BAE will be in one of the best positions in Europe in my opinion, it’s the long term plans that are lacking at the minute.
• Dassault managed to steal the lead from BAE when FOAS began to slow down in 1999 and went ahead with Logiduc et al; on the face of it there doesn’t seem to have been much work done. As I’ve said many times before Petit Duc D was a good and necessary step but it was limited in its achievement and was not very representative of an actual combat aircraft, partly due to the fact that it was intended that its technologies be applied to both tactical and strategic UAVs as well as UCAVs. Aside from the development of LO materials I can’t think of much relevant experience that AVE-D gave Dassault. AVE-C was a much more representative demonstrator in my opinion but even so there isn’t much evidence that it developed any French skills in terms of autonomous control methods, or even signature management technologies (it probably was LO). Dassault has at least demonstrated an unstable, tailless design and signature management technologies in two demonstrators. There may of course be quite a lot of work yet to be made public, and I’d bet that there is, however the publicity they generated for the logiduc makes it unlikely in my opinion that there has been anything more substantial than the AVE-D and AVE-C. What Dassault does have, and always had, was a long term plan. Pre-2003 Dassault had a clear strategy to produce a series of demonstrators developing the necessary skills right up to a full scale UCAV (Grand Duc), now of course Neuron has replaced this but is fully funded and quite secure. No other European nation has had public plans in place up until now. Thankfully for BAE and EADS Neuron has been delayed for three years thanks to negotiations with the partner nations. All in all Dassault and France will be in a prime position thanks to its leading position in Neuron but current and past work is a little average in my opinion.
• SAAB is in a pretty good position, they’ve certainly shown they can hold there own in the technologies required to produce UCAVs and wider UAVs. At first glance they look to be more advanced than Dassault but I wouldn’t go as far as to say that as a definite considering Dassault’s passed.
• Alenia, like you said, are at the bottom really (of those that are known to be active in the area). Sky-X while big and impressive looking didn’t demonstrate much. Being just the first step of a planned development programme that is forgivable but this plan has since been cancelled in favour of Neuron IIRC. The actual aircraft however might be developed further into a fully autonomous system by 2007/2008.
Overall I think there’s good reason to believe BAE is the most advanced with Dassault or SAAB coming up next, Alenia last and EADS a complete wild card. But that’s just taking what we know which, as evidenced by recent revelations, isn’t always representative of the truth.
UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 8:19 PM
Look at the light lines on both aircraft. The transition between the wing and the fuselage on Raven is smooth; on Corax there is a bulge and there are also diamond shaped panels.
This is the first time I have had a chance to look at a close up of Corax,
Looking closely at the wheels and the ripples in the water, I think that my estimates may have been a little too large. The length of the fuselage appears to be about 4.75m.
This message has been edited by chrisrobsoar on Feb 23, 2006 8:22 PM
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 8:43 PM
I see what you mean; my guess would be that it was simply a by-product of modifying and strengthening the Corax airframe to allow a much longer wingspan. You're probably more qualified than me to speculate on that though.
On the size, the wingspan of Corax has been given as being around 10m + if it helps. My personal estimate was between 3m and 5m long.
UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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February 23 2006, 11:32 PM
Please take a look at the original picture it gives a much better impression of scale.
There is sufficient room under the engine to connect the wings. The hood over the rear section has been changed to accommodate the bumps at the back of Corax. The more I look at it the more it looks like thrust vectoring. In essentially straight and level flight this could be a very stealthily way to manoeuvre.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 4:31 PM
A person I know well was at Manching yesterday and saw Barracuda, apparently it was as large as a Bo 105. Anything about size of the Raven? It's not really too important but I'd like to know.
BAe - Europe's leading company for stealth UCAV
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 4:55 PM
Did he take any pictures?
As long as the information on Corax being around 10m wingspan is right I'd say Raven is about 6m long with a 5m wingspan. Broadly similar to Sky-X, of course its height would be much smaller.
Chris, sorry for not replying I totally forgot about the thread. Anyway I've been looking at the pictures and I'm not sure I'm convinced that there's enough room under the engine to connect the wings, at least not without enough strength for that span. I've also had a very close look at the exhaust on Corax and Raven and I can’t see much evidence of thrust vectoring being employed. Of course it may not be mounted externally but I was under the impression that an internally mounted thrust vectoring system like on the X-45 took up much more space that seems available on either of the BAE UAVs. At the minute I’m of the opinion that the bumps are just accommodating some extra strengthening for the wings rather than systems for thrust vectoring.
you DONT havre an UCAV as the definition of UCA is Combat capable. LOOOOOOOOOOOL UAVs more likely....
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
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France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 5:53 PM
In the strictest sense Boeing is the only company to have produced a UCAV. However in common language most sources refer to demonstrators such as those mentioned as UCAV demonstrators as they are representative of UCAVs and UCAV technology. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person using the term "UCAV" is saying that the aircraft they're talking about can drop bombs.
For example none of the following vehicles ever dropped any munitions nor could they carry them yet all the respected sources refer to them as UCAVs. It's just semantics.
"Dassault Aviation has surprised its rivals with the development and test flight of a stealthy twin-engined unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV)." Flight International
C is for COMBAT capable and none of them ARE. I prefer BAe and MoD own staments. As long as they wont demonstate their combat capabilities they will and STAY frimly in the UAV category now Nod STFU im' sure you missed me. Poor boys.
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
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France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 6:00 PM
Yes they are all "just" UAVs but using the term UCAV is just a simpler way of saying that these demonstrators are UAVs representative of unmanned combat air vehicles. Flight International for example calls the AVE a UCAV but you know and I know that it cannot carry any weapons; it's hardly something to get upset and have an argument over.
you're showig some improvements in the general level of intellectual honnesty. It is all to YOUR credit. let's keep it that way.
UAV are non-combat capable UCAV are combat capable. If we don't make the difference we wont be geting nowhere fast and smooth.
Note that MoD actually considers going AWAY from the trend (as did the US with Predator by using it in combat): A stealthy (not full blown stealth) higly survivable UAV combat capable; a sort of hybrid is one considered solution. BUT: These are demonstator for obvious researhes purposes not the real article yet. Wait, patiently and you'll have yours soon. Or so they say.
There is something else you overlooked. At some point Turner was talking about a manned TDP UCAV. Return to the FOAS manned componnent this is worth investigating methink...
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
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France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 6:23 PM
you're showig some improvements in the general level of intellectual honnesty.
Please don’t be patronising, let’s not forget who was right about your sig
Note that MoD actually considers going AWAY from the trend (as did the US with Predator by using it in combat): A stealthy (not full blown stealth) higly survivable UAV combat capable; a sort of hybrid is one considered solution.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to here; the UK did consider arming the WK450 as the US did with Predator but it was dropped on cost grounds although I believe this may have been put back on the table. The only other thing I know of that you could be thinking of is Corax which was initially described as a UCAV demonstrator but recent information released by BAE has shown that this vehicle is purely a low observable ISTAR demonstration platform.
Raven is meant to be representative of a UCAV just as the Pegasus, AVE-C and a number of other aircraft were.
The substantial demonstrator being negotiated will be a “full blown UCAV” in that it will demonstrate all the technologies of other UCAV demonstrators (carriage and release, autonomy, etc). What is uncertain is whether or not it will be the same size as an operational UCAV or be more like the X-45 and carry a more limited weapons load; personally I think a subscale aircraft would be adequate.
there issomething else you overlooked. At som epoint Turner was talking about a manned TDP UCAV. Return to the FOAS manned componnent this is worth investigating methink...
I don’t understand what you mean, how can a UCAV be manned? When did he talk about this?
"Raven is meant to be representative of a UCAV just as the Pegasus, AVE-C and a number of other aircraft were."
So are the Duc since they are scale models of the real article. Let's call a horse a horse or soon you'll be riding camels or better, the M2.5 version of Santa's reindeer.
They are UAVs period.
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
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France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 6:42 PM
AVE-C is the Duc mate, Petit Duc C, and it is representative of a larger UCAV design as is Raven and a number of others, they're not technically UCAVs but they are representative of UCAV designs. Again this is just semantics, please let's not get bogged down with that.
I think we’re going away from the point, what do you mean by the UK is considering going away from the trend and what do you mean when you said that Turner was talking about a manned TDP UCAV?
Since you care reading what i post Nod, so attentively.
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March 3 2006, 7:06 PM
Precisely. Posted several time OVER. And i have replied to your post about the Ducs and the request for information i have made to Dassault on this. Don't push it.. Or check your post if you didn'tknow.. PS it's on the French forum so you might not have received it.
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
No score for this post Thunder (Login sampaix)
France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
This message has been edited by sampaix on Mar 3, 2006 7:18 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Mar 3, 2006 7:14 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Mar 3, 2006 7:12 PM
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 7:18 PM
I think you’ve missed what I was talking about; my reference to the Petit Duc C was in response to you saying that the Duc was also a UCAV related demonstrator, I was agreeing with you in that respect and was pointing out that I had already stated that it was a UCAV related demonstrator in my last post; I wasn’t have at you. Sorry if you took it that way.
Anyway, what do you mean when you say the MoD is considering going away from the trend and that Mike Turner was talking about a manned TDP UCAV?
what was the point made by Turner about this TDP? That is couldbe a manned demonstator leading to a UCAV version of it because ofthe need to master stealth technology. I don't spend my time posting these without reading them for the stake of flaming you guys. He speaks about the possibility to develop a manned version first.
Dassault Aerospace world leader and No 1 in the EUs.
French aerospace moves up into second place
April 14 2005 at 9:27 AM
No score for this post Thunder (Login sampaix)
France
French aerospace moves up into second place
France confirmed its position as the world's second-largest manufacturer of aerospace equipment behind the US in 2004 by achieving record sales of EUR28.4 billion ($36.3 billion), despite a dip in revenue from military goods.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 3 2006, 7:30 PM
That was around 1994 and referred to a TDP for the Future Offensive Aircraft, it didn't have anything to do with unmanned systems. The demonstrator meant to develop BAE Systems signature management capability and provide the UK with the ability to provide a low observable manned aircraft to replace the Tornado. It was never intended to lead to an unmanned system although an unmanned version of Replica which is the TDP BAE did develop (yes I know we have disagreements on this but humour me) was studied. No member of BAE has ever said anything about developing a manned aircraft before a UCAV. Your post seemed to suggest that Mike Turner (I’m not sure he was I the position he is now back then) had said something recently about a new manned aircraft, a misunderstanding.
But this still doesn’t explain what this different direction the UK is supposed to be taking is.
Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 4 2006, 2:42 PM
No photots taken as you're not allowed to take any cameras into EADS Manching area and anyway it was business as usual for him till he saw it. Said he thought it looked like a mock up but I guess that was just the disbelief that Germany might have a secret UAV there just near him!
BAe - Europe's leading company for stealth UCAV
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UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 4 2006, 2:48 PM
Quote:I wouldn't say so, the estimated size of hte Barrakuda is around 10m long with a 9m wingspan. I'd say that is broadly around the size of a Bo 105.
Maybe I was being a bit picky about the size.
Wasn’t Barrakuda supposed to fly during early March?
There were reports that this could have been somewhere in Spain, but if Barrakuda has been spotted at Manching, maybe this will be the site for the first flight.
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Re: UK reveals details of six new UAV programmes + Picture of Raven
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March 4 2006, 3:30 PM
Jane's has dismissed the Spanish test flight speculation, but that's just according to "there sources" no specifics so it's probably not as certain as that. Either way as far as I know the first flight was just first quarter 2006 wasn't it? Not sure though.
BAE didn't design ANY UCAV only UAVs and this to try to keep up with SAAB and Dassault who have a superior technology and design skills and doesn'e need to put 6 low level firmly suybsonic UAVs together to practice...
If you believe that Dassault and SAAB don't need to produce subsonic "low level" UAVs then why did they produce the SHARC, FILUR, AVE-C and AVE-D? Clearly both companies felt that they needed to build up there design experience in certain key areas in order to provide a basis on which to build.
Also if you believe that both Dassault and SAAB have a superior technology and design skills base in this area could you detail your reasons for believing this?
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