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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 6:20 PM
I expect this to be a wanted information leak and in the end there'll be 13 imo and then they can say "it's better than expected, wasn't it?", but a second aircraft carrier is imo more important than 4 FREMMs, if the price is 9 FREMMs I'm not totally certain anymore.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 7:02 PM
FREMMs aren't really very capable ships, so this is not a big issue.
Onward Chartered Soldiers, on to heathen lands,
Prayer books in your pockets, rifles in your hands.
Take the glorious tidings where trade can be done,
Spread the peaceful gospel --- with a Maxim gun.
Tell the wretched natives, sinful are their hearts,
Turn their heathen temples into spirit marts.
And if to your teaching they will not succumb,
Give them another sermon with the Maxim gun...
When the Ten Commandments they quite understand,
You their Chief must hocus, and annex their land;
And if they misguided call you to account,
Give them another sermon --- with a Maxim from the Mount
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 7:15 PM
Now, let's not bask in "thunder the big mouth"'s misery.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 8:27 PM
If the FREMM avt are concerned we might look for another ship to lauch our scalp-naval, not a big deal .
Moreover this "news" could be related to the internal war between the MN, the ADA and the AdT for procurement linked to the new "livre blanc" commig in 2008 .
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 8:32 PM
Quote:
If the FREMM avt are concerned we might look for another ship to lauch our scalp-naval, not a big deal .
"Breaking News - France invents warship that doesn't cost any money."
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 8:37 PM
Noification for Fremm Frigates from 9 to 12 is in 2011,
notification of frigate 13 to 17 is in 2013.
It's to early to budgetize for 2011 and 2013. The article above is purely speculative for now .Will be set by late fall 2007 on PA-2.
There are lot's of rumors circulating. One of them is the purchase of a US aircraft carrier. But the cost of which is 5 billion US $ makes it 50 50 chances of realizing.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 8:40 PM
Quote:There are lot's of rumors circulating. One of them is the purchase of a US aircraft carrier. But the cost of which is 5 billion US $ makes it 50 50 chances of realizing.
I think the chances of that not happening are close to 100%, first of all I doubt the US would clear a CVN for export to France (after all they didn't clear EMALS.).
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 9:05 PM
"Breaking news - French start to print euros at former wine cellar in Paris". Seriously, denying the cash crunch won't help. It is rather easy, either Sarkozy spends more on defence. Or there need to be cuts to the programmes.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 6 2007, 10:27 PM
Perhaps (slim chance) Thunder will be able to accept that even the mighty france isn't immune from budget cuts. Standing by for incoming vitriol though...
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 7 2007, 1:03 AM
Good job guys, now we're at Troll Colo[u]r Alert: Orange.
"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."
- Thomas Jefferson -
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads."
- Ron Paul -
"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools that don't have brains enough to be honest."
- Benjamin Franklin -
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
- Benjamin Franklin -
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 7 2007, 5:34 AM
The first Troll (Eryx] has arrived.
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TROLLS you can keep at it, it only makes you more stupid than usual.
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September 8 2007, 2:52 PM
If you cant PROVE what you say just shut this **** hole under your nose will you?
Let's SEE what is the matter with you morons:
Let us guess, you sudently realises that the war in Iraqw is going to cut down the number of RN combat ship below your mine's bigger syndrome breaking point?
You're so THICK and ineducated your moves are too too OBVIOUS as are your motivations.
Really, the WAFF would be a far better forum if you were to vaccate back to Pprune and some other crappy UK "Superior beings" sites.
In brief, your bunch of idiots spend their last four years measuring the size of your toys (and exagerating it), meaning you're ain't even grown up you're not even close to adolescence.
Get yourself a pack of lolies this W-E boyz!!!!
NOW: Please SHOW us an Assemblee Nationale doc saying the number of FREMMS is NOT 17.
They just decided to increase the number of Friguates to 19.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 8, 2007 2:54 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 8, 2007 2:53 PM
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RM Nod you're the WAFF certified Spin doctor no???
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September 9 2007, 11:19 AM
Quote Mike_A:
"Not three days ago you were claiming that the RN frigate fleet will most certainly be reduced. You didn't need an official statement for that."
All the official stament are there mate, only YOU keep denying reality and pretending the war doesn't cost you anything and you've been at it for several YEARS too.
France doesnt spend FOUR times the cost of a FREMM in deployement per YEAR the UK does.
So READ AGAIN: 16 + 3 = 19 including T-45 and C1, C2s and C3, even LOWER than my personal figure of 26, you dontr need official staments to DENY them either do you???
Now isn't this the 2004 white paper and the lowest option considered THREE years before MoD actually burnt at leat the equivalent of 8 Frigates in "current operation" cost??? (Wait for the 2007 bill).
The day there is going to be cuts in France we'll know simply because this have to be aproved through the Assemblee Nationale and made public; you're still caught spining and twisting, which isn't going to improve MoD finances anyway.
Does this compute to you????
MoD have a budget issue DGA doesn't.
Quote Mike_A: "Regardless, this is still only a blog, I've had a look through and he doesn't mention any source as far as I can tell. Little more than a rumour imho."
Humour?
>>>>>
Rob
(Login ThebetterRob)
RedCoats(UK) Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
No score for this post September 7 2007, 5:34 AM
The first Troll (Eryx] has arrived.
>>>>>
Your mate is the WAFF specialist of the pissing contest and hypocrit posting dont call this humour please but you can call yourself BIASED.
No humour here your usual Read coats complexion and sick one-way rivalry with France ending up with the fattie's usual biggot's flaming topics.
The day you guys will stop taking the piss and pretend the UK to be LOADS more that it is the WAFF will bea far better place to everyone.
READ: 2 FREDA + 17 FREMMS + 2 Forbins. for a total in 2015 of <> 26 combat ships.
You're going to have to come back to hearth, RN is conttemplating the same surface combat force number, if MoD can afford it.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 9, 2007 11:40 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 9, 2007 11:32 AM
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 9 2007, 12:49 PM
Quote:
MoD have a budget issue DGA doesn't.
Now, I'm not saying the MoD has not got a constrained budget, but the DGA certainly also has, perhaps worse, only one Barracdua is firmly ordered at the moment, the PA2 is delayed until funding arrangements can be found and so on.
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Quote Rob:
"Now, I'm not saying the MoD has not got a constrained budget, but the DGA certainly also has, perhaps worse, only one Barracdua is firmly ordered at the moment, the PA2 is delayed until funding arrangements can be found and so on."
PA-2 was delayed by the Kosovo conflict and its budget was included in the 2003 plan, it have been put on hold for all these years; as simple as that.
There is nowhere near the level of constraints in DGA budget as there is in that of MoD AND DGA finances are in the green since 2005 thanks to M.A.M work, plus cost overruns are not even comparible...
>>>>>As for differ5ences:
DCN FREMM Cost = Eus 280 millions reduced from an original cost of Eus 400 millions. = £189.98 millions per unit.
Quote Navy Matters: "There is not currently (June 2007) dedicated Integrated Project Team, 4 members of the FSC team within the Frigates Integrated Project Team. The budget for the FSC project is secret although FSC is acknowledged to be Category A project which means that it has a budget over £400m (£400m is about half the cost of a Type 45 destroyers)."
1) Costs of military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq 2006-7 £770 million rising to £1.2 billion.
2) Costs of military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq <> £540 million/year up to 2006.
3) Bill for current operations since White paper = £1.850 billion MINIMUM.
4) = 1) 2) 3) => MoD oracle (Cost of UK Military Campaigns Soars March 13th 2007).
RN next frigates are going to cost about of twice the unit price of a FREM.
Since the whipe paper was published the bill for deployement is: £1.850.
Scheduled cost for 2007 <> £1.2 billion.
How many FREMMS is this???
It's all very well coming up with figures you dont even comprehend and make stupid Disneylandish claims about your MoD procurement plans, we know what the score is:
MN minimum requieremernt is 17 FREMMS and TWO FREDAs.
RN minimum is 6 T-45 and 13 more frigates.
These minimums are that allowing for ops without losses taken into acount and MN number is already at the minimum if the 2015 plan for 26 ships is not reached.
MN got 13 CMT Mine hunters of the "Tripartite" class which FREMMS are NOT replacing, the C3 roles includes; minehunting, survey work and patrol duties.
NOT specific Mine hunters like are the CMTs.
AGAIN we're looking at similar numbers of combatant ships with more AAW capabilties to RN due to the fleets different make ups and roles.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 9 2007, 9:34 PM
Naturally it is a rumour, iirc no one said otherwise, note the "may" in the title.
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This message has been edited by ThebetterRob on Sep 11, 2007 5:11 PM
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Caption Destroyer and Frigates.= 16. Plus 3 Minewarfare vessels, NOT a C3 definition (multirole) and only 3 of them.
MoD White Paper 2004.
Including: "The number of units requiered in the forces structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the unit held to rotate the enduring operations.
MEANING NO capability deficit.
French admiralty requieres 25/26 ships minimum, i believe this number will be similar around 2015 for both fleets.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 11, 2007 5:10 PM
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 11 2007, 5:16 PM
Erm your figure comes to 19 not 16 and you know that your extract only covers one template and overall minimum force levels for the DD/FF fleet were put at 25 ships.
This was arrived at due to 25 ships being the minimum required to sustain the medium/medium/small concurrency deployment template.
16 Destroyers and Frigates is what this paper says not 19...
Dedicated mine hunters are not surface combatants, note that their number in the doc you posted would be the same for both fleets as well as France already posseses 13 minehunters (Designed and built in common with Belgium) and that these are not replaced by the FREMMs.
C3 IS considered a frigate even if its tonage is lower than that of a T23, it isn't a minehunter but a cheaper alternative to heavier types and the more it goes, the more likely the next type is going to be lighter but more of a multi-role type just like the FREMM are.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 11, 2007 5:26 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 11, 2007 5:25 PM
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 11 2007, 5:36 PM
Yes but that part of the doc sets out the minimum to conduct one template, the whole paper states that the UK need to be able to carry out all three scenarios and that the most intense requires a minimum of 25 destroyers and frigates. So the RN minimum is for 25 frigates and destroyers, not 19 or 16.
Quote:C3 IS considered a frigate even if its tonage is lower than that of a T23
It’s not, it’s considered a minor surface combatant meant to replace MCM, patrol and survey ships. This is set out clearly in the S2C2 plan.
I’m not disputing anything about FREMM by the way, just your RN numbers.
Sorry Nod: NO NEED for a fuzzy interpretation here.
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September 12 2007, 2:02 PM
What this page SAYS is CRISTAL clear.
= "The number of units requiered in the forces structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the unit held to rotate the enduring operations.
And this number is 16 Destroyers and Frigates.
The MINIMUM number requiered by RN IS 16.
Quote RM-Nod: "Btw, what are the costs of current French operations?"
Budgets OPEX, FREMM and PA2.
OPEX:
The French equivalent of MoD "Curent Operations" is called OPEX: Operations Exterieures.
The French President requiered the complete "budgetisation" of OPEX from 2007, 2006 is the first step in this direction.
There was an unscheduled cost over-run of €550 millions for the year 2005 due to local "crisis".
There is a SPECIFIC topic dedicated to eventual cost over-runs called "Surcouts lies aux operation exterieures.
2006 according to this document is already half-budgeted from the date the budget was voted due to the provisions allowed by the creation of this particular topic.
For 2005, the OPEX budget was €100 millions (not included over-run) ity have been increased by more than 100%.
The 2006 OPEX budget voted in 2006 is now €250 millions for an expected total of <> €550 millions (<> Half), compare this to MoD actual bill for 2007 scheduled to reach £1.850 billions.
To summerise, Frances spends <> 4 time LESS than Britain in deployement costs in 2007 and twice as less in previous years.
FREMM:
The payement for the first tranche of 8 ships was authorised by the 2004 and 2005 PLFs NOT the 2006 budget but the bulk of the money doesnt come from the State, it is coming from a consortium of French banks.
The French state only pay the ships at delivery and this budgeting system is a total novely it aloows to focuse the main procurement budget on the OTHER programmes, including PA2.
The programme FREMM in included in the 2003-2008 LPM with FIRST tranch order for 8 ships was SIGNED by DGA with a contract to DCN for an amount of €4.4 billons on 16 Nov 2006 €1.7 billons from the previous year budget.
The 17 FREMMs programme is agreed on the basis for a total cost of €6.5 bilions and a unit cost of €280 millions.
Credits for the whole programme in 2007 reached €588.5 millions including ptrevious years (from 2004).
PA2:
PA2 contract is still been negotiated between DGA and MOPA2, the French state wants a bill for a maximum of €2.5 billons and its budget is totaly independent of the 8 FREMMs as it will be partly payed from LPF 2007.
Credit for PA2 reached €250 millons in 2007 for an authorisation of payement of €1.000.9 bilions including previous years.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 12, 2007 2:12 PM
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Medium is NOT Medium/Small/Small concurency mate, and the MINIMUM requierement for RN is 16 Destroyers and Frigates.
= "The number of units requiered in the forces structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the unit held to rotate the enduring operations.
Looks like you still cant face reality.
Now stop spining you only spin yourself to knots.
Sociopathic liars and serial mythomaniacs.
Beware the trolls....
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 13, 2007 9:23 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 13, 2007 9:23 AM
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 13 2007, 4:19 PM
Have you actually read the White paper?
There are three operational templates, M/S/S Concurrency, M/M/S Concurrency, and Large Scale Concurrency; the document determined that the UK must be able to mount each one. To be able to do this the minimum must be set so that the most demanding template can be achieved, this is the M/M/S Concurrency, and this sets out the minimum of 25 frigates and destroyers. That is why the overall force level is set at that number and not at 16.
Read page 14, in particularly this bit…
“ Planned Force Levels
The force structure resulting from the force summation process is set out in the attached tables, showing each of the three concurrency suites. The total requirement for each force element is determined by the largest figure derived from these concurrency permutations. The results are set out on the final table, which shows the planned force structure.”
As I said the planned force level for the FF/DD fleet is 25 units.
Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 14 2007, 5:14 PM
Can you read or do you use a voice recognition programme to create your posts? I really can’t see how anyone who can read cannot understand this. Seriously there has to be something wrong with you if you can’t or won’t understand.
Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 14 2007, 6:46 PM
Its quite clear that Thunder doesnt understand force generation.
The current requirement for the RN is to DEPLOY 16 vessels at any one time - to achieve this generation rate, and to allow for refits, maintenance, repairs, work up and transit (all the things the MN so clearly never needs to do, for it is clearly perfect), a total fleet strength of 25 hulls is required.
IIRC it breaks down as 16 deployed / on ops, 5 in work up/transit and 4 in deep refit.
Its really very simple, only a total moron would fail to understand this.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 15 2007, 10:28 AM
Oh my god, you're so thick, it really isn't nice anymore.
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The only boyish troll to consistently appear in such great need of atention and pride recovery as to invent himslef programmes, capabilties, numbers of assets his dear contry doesnt have is YOU and your pals sharing this complexion of yours.
The thick one known as such in virtually every forums you dare writinmg you know why?
Because you're so fcuked-up you cant even figure that others have a memory and noticed how much of a mental you were long ago.
As for myself i dont do nice i do reality checks for idiots of your kind.
Minimum number of assets considered by the 2004 WHITE PAPER is 16 Destroyers and frigates.
nEUROn the ONLY European UCAV programme.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 15 2007, 11:39 AM
Seriously - do you read what people say? Do you understand the difference between total force structure and force generation? You really are a total idiot aren't you?
If you don't understand that to deploy 16 escorts, you need 25 hulls, then you are even more stupid than I'd imagined.
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quote jimlad1: "If you don't understand that to deploy 16 escorts, you need 25 hulls, then you are even more stupid than I'd imagined."
"the factor include the number of units in the force structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the units held to rotate the enduring operations"
MORON. = Doesnt look like they are saying they plan to deploy 16 hulls does IT???
I dont give a toss about the difference between a and X as far as we know, this doc gives a number of 16 destroyers and Frigates as a minimum and READ AGAIN yourself before opening your mouth so wide.
"the factor include the number of units in the force structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the units held to rotate the enduring operations"
This is for a Mediun/Small/Small figure NOT the Medium/Medium/Small as provided by RM Nod and if you need 25 to deploy 16 it doesnt MEAN 25 is the MINIMU figure = you got it now???
Now if you didn't as usual take your superioricist attitude you'll have notices that I was saying the RN and MN would end-up with a similar NUMBER of <> 26 ships in the future. NOW, Take a hike sailor.
nEUROn the ONLY European UCAV programme.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 15, 2007 12:01 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 15, 2007 12:00 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 15, 2007 11:56 AM
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 15 2007, 5:19 PM
Oh dear, someones been on the drugs again.
The table you are using comes from the strategic assumptions which we use to work out force requirements. I fail to understand why you can't accept that the RN requirement is for 25 hulls to deploy 16? Its really not difficult and its your utter hatred of anything British that blinds you to the truth.
Why the **** can't you just accept this one tiny thing? Why does everything to do with anything on the UK have to turn into an endless battleground with you? Every time there is a UK post it goes fine until you turn up and it turns into a flame war - what is your major issue? Do you like being banned from boards - are you pushing it here too so you can get banned and claim we can't handle the truth - this is what happened on the endless list of forums you've got lifelong bans from isn't it?
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Yeah READ AGAIN TROLL and then go WHO! someone else...:
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September 15 2007, 6:47 PM
You're the brain-fcuked bunch here.
If Force Structure MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL and;
Force Structure MEDIUM/SMALL/SMALL sounds the SAME to you,
you're good for the nearest brain surgery.
I'm sure you wear your little sister nickers and shoes no???
If NOT you're at the lowest of your susual intellectual deshonesty level.
So READ AGAIN:
If Force Structure MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL and;
Force Structure MEDIUM/SMALL/SMALL sounds the SAME to you,
you're good for the nearest brain surgery.
nEUROn the ONLY European UCAV programme.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 15, 2007 6:50 PM
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Playing STOOPID or can tell which size and gender you're supposed to wear?
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September 15 2007, 6:52 PM
In this case you'll be half-capable of making the difference between YOUR interpretation of this document and itself.
You're the brain-fcuked bunch here.
If Force Structure MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL and;
Force Structure MEDIUM/SMALL/SMALL sounds the SAME to you,
you're good for the nearest brain surgery.
I'm sure you wear your little sister nickers and shoes no???
If NOT you're at the lowest of your susual intellectual deshonesty level.
So READ AGAIN:
If Force Structure MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL and;
Force Structure MEDIUM/SMALL/SMALL sounds the SAME to you,
you're good for the nearest brain surgery.
nEUROn the ONLY European UCAV programme.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 15 2007, 7:06 PM
Of course you're leaving out the tables which show medium / medium / small or large / small because they don't fit with your hugely perverted idea of the truth. You are the sole person on the planet deluded enough to think that a single table in MOD planning assumptions, means that the RN fleet is going to be 16 strong, when multiple people have told you why the figure is what it is. You really are mad.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 15 2007, 7:54 PM
Now youre English lesson. READ ATTENTIVELY:
There's a mistake in that ("you're") sentence.
Jimlad. AGAIN you mystake ME for one of yours.
The word "ME" should be written "me".
You're the brain-fcuked bunch here.
The word "fcucked" is wrongly spelt.
If Force Structure MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL and;
The sentence makes no sense and there is a punctuation mistake and again it is "medium/medium/small", not "MEDIUM/MEDIUM/SMALL".
Force Structure MEDIUM/SMALL/SMALL sounds the SAME to you,
The words "same, medium, small, small" should not be written in capital letters.
you're good for the nearest brain surgery.
This sentence makes no sense.
Now get yourself a psychologist you're in a greater need of atention than i care providing you with.
A comma is missing. The conclusion is that none of your sentences were perfect.
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 16 2007, 1:36 AM
Is anyone going to the Farnborough airshow? I think it's on next year, so maybe we could bring some little plastic frigates from a game of battleships, and some copies of the table, then maybe we can all explain the tables to him
"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."
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Re: FREMM numbers may be cut from 17 to as low as 8
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September 16 2007, 8:55 PM
Ah true, it prooves the point very well indeed.
707 Typhoons on order for 6 nations - next export prospects: Turkey, Norway, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Marocco, Denmark, Switzerland, Japan, Brazil and India
Britain:
Germany:
Italy:
Spain:
Austria:
Saudi-Arabia:
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