Filin & Koniev,

Is terrible when you dont see the reality. If you see the reality, then you are able to make some corrections and to save some things. The surface fleet is in terrible and poor condition. The fact is that the vessels which being decommisioned are not being replaced by new. Is just like the population of Russia and of most EU countries. The older persons die, and the annual deaths, are more than the annual births, and the population is getting less and less year by year. Is the same thing with the warships, the older are deccomicioned, and there are no new "births of warships". This is my general comment. Now I will analyze my point of view which is TOTALY CORRECT, and I will make same suggestions, which I believe the new president, Mendviedev will read them.

First of all there are so many vessels in retire, and "under repair". If you see the number of warhips, which are in shipyards, is a second fleet!! Maybe is more than the current Russian active fleet. I will analyze the vessels, class by class.

1. Kirov class:

Only one is active, and this is offcource "Pyotr Veliki", the other 3 are being rusting, day by day. I will start with the older the "Admiral Ushakov", the ex Kirov. This vessel is payed off from the fleet from 2002. I ve seen some photos from 1997-1998 period in which Kirov and the newly commissioned Veliki where together, at the naval base. Also in 1999 the Duma voted the decission of modernization of Ushakov. But later the decission changed, and the vessel is moored in Sevmash, waiting for scrapping. This is one great mistake, because is too valuable vessel, and except from Granits was a S-300 carrier. At the same time the 40 year old, Ocakov a Kara class cruiser is being modernized and off course is being ...financed. Is that make any sence? They prefer to scrapp such a powerfull vessel, and they try to save the acient "Ocakov"!!!




The second of the "Kirov" class is in more terrible condition from Ushakov. The name of the second kirov is "Admiral Lazarev", the ex Frunze. Officially is not decommicioned, and is "waiting" for overhaul. The vessel commicioned in 1984, and is an 24 year old, powerfull, nuclear ship, and I will repeat , that Ocakov is being modernized, and Lazarev is not..

This foto is from 2007, and saws clearly the bad state of the vessel.
Click and ...enjoy



Your argument that all of them are "iron bodies" and could be modernized at the future, has no sence. The time is the worst enemy for these vessels.

But lets go at the third vessel, the Nakhimov. The image that posted above clearly saws that the vessel, waiting for overhall, and is not being modernized. The modernizing process isn't started yet. What kind off modernization will be is totally unclear, some rumors metions replacement of Granits, with Yakhonts, but in fact the hole process is in zero point. I have to say that Nakhimov and Ushakov, are at the same moor in sevmash shipyard.

Slava class:

Is totaly different vessels from the Kirovs, they are "antiship" carriers, and they carry the older missile the Bazalt, instead of Granit. If you see more carefull the vessels bulted around the missile complex! I said that these vessels are different from kirovs, not for their missions but because they have different structure. Actually the project 1164 is the result of redesigning the project 1165. The project 1165 was a projected nuclear cruiser a little bit bigger than the Slava but smaller than Kirov. The cancellation of that project was the developing of 1164. The Slava class has very tall superstructure, and because of that stability problems. If you see Kirov has more "pyramid appearence structure. Also Slava has no VLS antiship system, only SA-N-6 VLS. Any way for the time of being Slava class is very valuable due to the lack of vessels, and because they are also S-300 carriers. I wonder why the forth slava is rusting in the shipyard, 90% ready and is not completed. Is "Ocakov" more valuable than a Slava class cruiser? Now are 3 Slavas in service, and along side with the Pyotr Veliki are the only vessels with long range AAW.

Enjoy the forth slava:



I have to say that is rumored that the third Slava, the Varyag, carries the P-1000 Vulkan instead of P-500 Bazald. Well both of them, P-500 and P-1000 are the same family, actually all of them (P-5,6,35, P-500, p-1000) are all the same with some improvements each one. They can be fired only from surface and all of the have 2 boosters which are seperated from the main body after the firing. Thats why the soviet navy decided to develop missile with the same mission - the distruction of US supercarriers- but to be launched from undersea. Not that the older SSGN Echo I armed with P-6 and Echo II armed with P-500 both of them could fire those missiles only surfaced, not submerged.

Sovremmenyy and Udaloy class:

Sovremmenyy class is planned to be decommicioned because of their steam machinery. On the other hand, Udaloys are serving well because they are gas turbined. Unfortunately Udaloys which are as hulls very nice, they are too lightly armed, as US Spruance class in the begining. We talk about 8000t vessels which ared only with point deffence system, which is the kinzal. 7 Udaloys are in service, and 2 are being repeared. As for Sovremmenyys are well armed but due to their Steam system and their boilers they will be decommicioned all of them. In 2007 one sovremmenyy of the Nothern fleet decommicioned, and now the nothern fleet has only two sovremmenyys.

Sovremmenyy with the number 404 RIP *1984 - 2007+

http://navsource.narod.ru/photos/03/481/index.html

My proposals:

It is obvious that the surface fleet of the Russian navy will not exist at the close future. Even Medvedev said that the navy has problem, when he visite severodvinsk before one month. A fisherman complain to him that the Norwigians are very provocative and he asked the new president, why "our vessels are absent" and Medvedev replied "You dont see vessels at sea because simply are not exist", and also he said that is great need to built new major vessels. So the officials knows that there is a problem.
I deeply believe that the decissions should change and all the Kirovs should be modernized and return to service for no less than 20 years. Note that US nuclear carriers, have 50 years life. I think that the team who designed Kirovs, had in mind a powerfull warship, a missile carrier with life of more than 35 years, and they designed them, in such way, that future upgreats could be possible. All the weapons in Kirov class are VLS and is much more easy to modernize a vessel with VLS than a conversional one like Slava. So I propose the modernization of all 4 Kirovs, and also Nakhimov and Veliki to be armed not only with Yakhonts, but also with Kh-101 missiles, as US, did with tomahawks and France with Scalp navale.
Also the forth Slava should be completed, and all of Slavas should be upgreated by replacing the AK-130s with Palma, or Kastan CIWS. Also if is possible S-400 in navalized version should replace Slava's S-300 system.
As for Sovremmenyys I dont think that the navy needs them, because Gorskov FFG class do the same jop. The problem is that Sorvremmenyys are gone but there is no project FFG at sea, so there is a gap. Also At my point of view Udaloys which are perfect hulls should be modernized by adding Yakhonts, and the "small" missile of S-400, which also planned to arm the project 22350 FFG. If you look is enough space for VLS if you remove the second 100mm gun. Last but not least: There is a great need for the navy to develop a new 8000t destroyer, there is no blue water navy without such vessels. Even South Korea, builts a 10000t KDXIII monster! Why huge Russia should have only frigates and corvettes?

So my vission and my propose for 2020 is:

4 fully modernized Kirovs
4 modernized with new CIWS Slavas
8 modernized Udaloys
0 Sovremmenyys
10 Gorskov FFGs
20 Steregushyy FFL
and a new class of destroyer. This should be the future of the navy.This is the correct way.

"> TAKE OUT THE LARGE PICTURES

Now I will analyze my point of view which is TOTALY CORRECT"

A bit cocky IMO


"Only one is active, and this is offcource "Pyotr Veliki", the other 3 are being rusting, day by day. I will start with the older the "Admiral Ushakov", the ex Kirov. This vessel is payed off from the fleet from 2002. I ve seen some photos from 1997-1998 period in which Kirov and the newly commissioned Veliki where together, at the naval base. Also in 1999 the Duma voted the decission of modernization of Ushakov. But later the decission changed, and the vessel is moored in Sevmash, waiting for scrapping. This is one great mistake, because is too valuable vessel, and except from Granits was a S-300 carrier. At the same time the 40 year old, Ocakov a Kara class cruiser is being modernized and off course is being ...financed. Is that make any sence? They prefer to scrapp such a powerfull vessel, and they try to save the acient "Ocakov"!!! "

There are only 3,Ushakov is just sitting there. Pyotr and Nakhimov are in good condition, Lazarev can be commisioned at times notice with only 1-2 years of work. These vessels will all get minor updates in by 2020 and still be in service past 2030.




"The second of the "Kirov" class is in more terrible condition from Ushakov. The name of the second kirov is "Admiral Lazarev", the ex Frunze. Officially is not decommicioned, and is "waiting" for overhaul. The vessel commicioned in 1984, and is an 24 year old, powerfull, nuclear ship, and I will repeat , that Ocakov is being modernized, and Lazarev is not.."

Lazarev will most likely recieve a face lift in the coming years, its still in descent condition. And all that photo shows is that is paint is coming of, with some rust. These are not huge upgrades and I think for 30-50m that ship can be put back to sea.


"Your argument that all of them are "iron bodies" and could be modernized at the future, has no sence. The time is the worst enemy for these vessels."

Like I said, modernizing the vessels is nowhere as costly as building new ones.

"But lets go at the third vessel, the Nakhimov. The image that posted above clearly saws that the vessel, waiting for overhall, and is not being modernized. The modernizing process isn't started yet. What kind off modernization will be is totally unclear, some rumors metions replacement of Granits, with Yakhonts, but in fact the hole process is in zero point. I have to say that Nakhimov and Ushakov, are at the same moor in sevmash shipyard."

I never said modernization started, but the vessel is waiting for a refit. http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2007/item1/item2/ Scroll down and look under repairs, Nakhimov is in there. But what you will also find is that this year the navy spent a lot of time updating its submarine fleet, with 9 subs being modernized, while only 3 surface ships got a refit. It appears the navy is going to take care of the subs first, wait a few years and you will see the results.


"Is totaly different vessels from the Kirovs, they are "antiship" carriers, and they carry the older missile the Bazalt, instead of Granit. If you see more carefull the vessels bulted around the missile complex! I said that these vessels are different from kirovs, not for their missions but because they have different structure. Actually the project 1164 is the result of redesigning the project 1165. The project 1165 was a projected nuclear cruiser a little bit bigger than the Slava but smaller than Kirov. The cancellation of that project was the developing of 1164. The Slava class has very tall superstructure, and because of that stability problems. If you see Kirov has more "pyramid appearence structure. Also Slava has no VLS antiship system, only SA-N-6 VLS. Any way for the time of being Slava class is very valuable due to the lack of vessels, and because they are also S-300 carriers. I wonder why the forth slava is rusting in the shipyard, 90% ready and is not completed. Is "Ocakov" more valuable than a Slava class cruiser? Now are 3 Slavas in service, and along side with the Pyotr Veliki are the only vessels with long range AAW."

What 4th Slava? The one that is going to Ukraine? Slava is in descent condition, along with Ustinov and Varyag which arent just sitting in port. It has also been rumored that Bazalt systems on the two ships are gone and have been replace by P-700/800 and if they havent than they are probably empty.





"I have to say that is rumored that the third Slava, the Varyag, carries the P-1000 Vulkan instead of P-500 Bazald. Well both of them, P-500 and P-1000 are the same family, actually all of them (P-5,6,35, P-500, p-1000) are all the same with some improvements each one. They can be fired only from surface and all of the have 2 boosters which are seperated from the main body after the firing. Thats why the soviet navy decided to develop missile with the same mission - the distruction of US supercarriers- but to be launched from undersea. Not that the older SSGN Echo I armed with P-6 and Echo II armed with P-500 both of them could fire those missiles only surfaced, not submerged."

Vulkan might be developed from Bazalt, but its not in the same class, chances are they have teweaked its guidence and maybe even coated with special RAM.


"Sovremmenyy class is planned to be decommicioned because of their steam machinery. On the other hand, Udaloys are serving well because they are gas turbined. Unfortunately Udaloys which are as hulls very nice, they are too lightly armed, as US Spruance class in the begining. We talk about 8000t vessels which ared only with point deffence system, which is the kinzal. 7 Udaloys are in service, and 2 are being repeared. As for Sovremmenyys are well armed but due to their Steam system and their boilers they will be decommicioned all of them. In 2007 one sovremmenyy of the Nothern fleet decommicioned, and now the nothern fleet has only two sovremmenyys."

Yes, but it will also get the Gorshkov in a couple of years, or is at least trying to get it.



"It is obvious that the surface fleet of the Russian navy will not exist at the close future. Even Medvedev said that the navy has problem, when he visite severodvinsk before one month. A fisherman complain to him that the Norwigians are very provocative and he asked the new president, why "our vessels are absent" and Medvedev replied "You dont see vessels at sea because simply are not exist", and also he said that is great need to built new major vessels. So the officials knows that there is a problem."

You think that Putin doesnt know this?

"I deeply believe that the decissions should change and all the Kirovs should be modernized and return to service for no less than 20 years. Note that US nuclear carriers, have 50 years life. I think that the team who designed Kirovs, had in mind a powerfull warship, a missile carrier with life of more than 35 years, and they designed them, in such way, that future upgreats could be possible. All the weapons in Kirov class are VLS and is much more easy to modernize a vessel with VLS than a conversional one like Slava. So I propose the modernization of all 4 Kirovs, and also Nakhimov and Veliki to be armed not only with Yakhonts, but also with Kh-101 missiles, as US, did with tomahawks and France with Scalp navale."

To update and put back in service all of these ships will take 1+ billion dollars, they will keep at least 2 active. However this is a huge chunk of the naval budget, and I do expect for modernization of Pyotr and Nakhimov, and maybe Lazarev. It will take around 10 years to complete the rotation.

"Also the forth Slava should be completed, and all of Slavas should be upgreated by replacing the AK-130s with Palma, or Kastan CIWS. Also if is possible S-400 in navalized version should replace Slava's S-300 system."

The Slavas have a very good chance of getting the S-300FM systems installed, the budget is tight now but in a few years you should see it happen.


"As for Sovremmenyys I dont think that the navy needs them, because Gorskov FFG class do the same jop. The problem is that Sorvremmenyys are gone but there is no project FFG at sea, so there is a gap. Also At my point of view Udaloys which are perfect hulls should be modernized by adding Yakhonts, and the "small" missile of S-400, which also planned to arm the project 22350 FFG. If you look is enough space for VLS if you remove the second 100mm gun. Last but not least: There is a great need for the navy to develop a new 8000t destroyer, there is no blue water navy without such vessels. Even South Korea, builts a 10000t KDXIII monster! Why huge Russia should have only frigates and corvettes?"

Thats the reason why Kirovs are slow to be upgraded, and the money is going towards the Gorshkov, its much cheaper to operate. I expect a new destroyer class to be shown by 2013-15, and to enter service by 2020.

So my vission and my propose for 2020 is:

4 fully modernized Kirovs (that most likely wont happen, 3 at most, probably 2)
4 modernized with new CIWS Slavas (thats probably the case, after they get done with the subs)
8 modernized Udaloys (nope, Udaloys should be retired and for Gorshkov to take its place)
0 Sovremmenyys (they will probably keep the 2 in the Northern for a while)
10 Gorskov FFGs (by 2020 only 5 or so, with a few more building, by 2030 probably 15 or so)
20 Steregushyy FFL (20 is pushing it, 13-15 to be done by 2020, along with a few laid down)

and a new class of destroyer. This should be the future of the navy.This is the correct way.
(you will most likely see a destroyer class shown in 5 or 7 years)

You also forgot the 2 CVs that should be under construction, along with 10-15 Buryan, alogn with that there is a 4500t Korsar frigate under construction (you will see 3-5 of these by 2020), 2 or 3 3600t Borodino, and some light Scorpios and 3-4 Ivan Gren.


--------------------------------------------

4 fully modernized Kirovs (My gues only two active after Nachimov finaly gets finished, we will never see the tho toher hulls back in operative duty, they have been laid up for too long and the cost is too big.)

4 modernized with new CIWS Slavas (They probably will keep in service the 3 already operational, i cant see a soltion for the ukrainian hull, my best suggestion would be to move the Black Sea "Moskva" to the Northern fleet and for her seiling as airdefence for Kuznetsov togehter with Marshal Ustionov. i dont see the point for having a ship like that in the Black Sea.)

8 modernized Udaloys (Should definetely keep the Udaloys, too long for the Gorshkov to be operational)The Udaloys are good ASW ships and has been doing well in exercises with other nations, several of the Udaloys has been one long range deployment in international exercises around the world last years, US, France etc. If they could maybe modernise the AAW missiles and perhaps replace the Silex missile-system with Sunburn like on Chabanenko would be even better. They are the backbone of the russian navy today and are good for keeping foreign sub away from local waters)

0 Sovremmenyys? (I hope they will keep 5-6 of these, the machinery problem seems to have been sorted out, like the Ushakov they moderniced in 2001-2003, the ship looks good and have good anti-ship capability. AAW is ok, not so sure about ASW capability.)
10 Gorskov FFGs (I hope to see 5 or so by 2020, butthey need to speed up production, and equip her with decent AAW missiles since the old AAW ships are getting old fast)
20 Steregushyy FFL (I think 10-11 ships around 2020. This is capable ships but in no way as stealthy as western designs, Anti-ship and ASW ok, but not "the backbone of russian navy" as claimed, they are just too small for blue water operations )

"You also forgot the 2 CVs that should be under construction, along with 10-15 Buryan, alogn with that there is a 4500t Korsar frigate under construction (you will see 3-5 of these by 2020), 2 or 3 3600t Borodino, and some light Scorpios and 3-4 Ivan Gren."

CVs under construction? should be, or do you mean you wish they were?
Buryan...Project-number?
Korsar frigate. If you are talking about the Neustrashimy class with only one ship built you can be greatful if they finish the unfinished Yaroslav Mudry
2-3 Borodino? The Novik project is cancelled and Borodino will be finished as a training ship. No more of this class planned.

I think warfare is wrong about the Borodino based on what I read the project has not been canceled. Korsar frigate is under construction at yantar shipyard, I expect more of these as they are cheaper than the Gorshkov. Buryan is the ~600t patrol ship, its not really a major surface combatant, but I think it still should be noted just like Scorpio. The first one of the class was Astrahan, it was shown last year. The dockyard for the CVs is under construction, with a finish date of around 5 years, at which point the construction of the CVs should start. There were 2 projects shown at the expo last year, 1 for Pacific, and 1 for Northern.

--------------------------------------------

Unfortunatelly "Admiral Nakhimov" probably will never be operational again. The Sevmash shipyard announched that the repairing process postponed, and the cruiser will be repaired maybe in 3-4 years from now on IF funds will allocated properly. The hole programm has many financial process and the future of the vessel is uncertain. Also keep in mind that sevmash talks about REPAIRS NOT MODERNIZATION.

http://shipbuilding.ru/rus/news/russian/2008/05/14/takr/>

They have insufficient funds, they recieved some cash from Kremlin but they need more. Considering Severodvinsk has been laid up for so many years its not surprising they are lagging with the Nakhimov, by 2013 it should go out to sea.

--------------------------------------------

http://shipbuilding.ru/rus/news/russian/2008/05/16/takr/

"Nakhimov will set sail" , reactor is getting pulled, new computers are getting put in place of the old outdated stuff, Granit will be replaced with something newer.

--------------------------------------------

Burny was returned to service in 2007 so where he is getting zero Sovs from I dont know. That said, the Russian surface fleet are almost entirely irrelevant to Russian national defense.

Surface fleet might be irrelevant as a deterrent, but as far as defense goes, its important to maintain a presence around the world, or are you forgetting our history? At least 1 Kirov has to be maintained to a flawless standard and showcased around the world, they parade Chabanenko everywhere, but imagine a behemoth like Kirov at a NATO port for everyone to see.

--------------------------------------------

showing the flag when everyone knows your surface fleet is a hollow shell is a waste of time, money and fuel.

They dont know crap, they are just going by rumors, 1 Kirov will sway anyones opinion.

--------------------------------------------

I adore Kirovs, and I will totally disagree with you. Kirov class is not a Sverdlov class, which had no use in cold war period. Kirov class is not a gun armed large cruiser, which used only for navy celebrations, naval parades, and flag show visits, in NATO harbors.
Kirov class introduced first time in naval history the VLS systems, almost a decade before USN. If you look carefully only Kirov class can be comperade with western warships. For instance only Kirov class alongside with Slava class has longe range AAW missiles, and powerful SSM battery. Chapanenko which visits foreign ports, athough she has impresive look with massive antennas, dark gray color and huge SS-N-22 launcher, in fact is a 8000t large destroyer with point defence ability only at the same time in which the western counterparts of the same size have on board SM-2/3, and Aster 30. The huge Chapanenko has only kinzal/kortik and kastan CIWS.
What I am trying to say is that the project 1144 is UNIQUE and the man which created it had in mind that this vessel would be modern and usefull after also 30 years. Project 1144 desinged to be in service for a long time. So if you look carefully you will see that this vessel has enouch space for VLS, maybe twice of the US Ticoderoga. But I dont think that the modernization is certain because NOBODY in the Sevmach or in the Nothern Fleet command knows what will replace Granit. They plan a modernization without any specific plan. I dont believe that only Onyx will be a real upgreat for such huge vessel. Only a long range cruise missile instalation will give a high prestige to Admiral Nakhimov.
Finally if ever Admiral Nakhimov be modernized is possible for Pyotr Veliki to follow at modernization process? Also is possible for Pyotr Veliki to visit Medditeranean ports this summer?

If there is ever a war when Russia actually NEEDs a Kirov you will probably see SLBMs flying from all over the place. Russian navy on paper is the 2nd strongest in the world, but ask a foreign politician to rank it and it would be lucky to get into top 5. Imagine 2 fully modernized Kirovs being paraded through NATO countries, it will make anyone think twice before doing something stupid.

Irkut is partially right, submarines are the key to winning a modern naval war but they make much less of an impression than a 25000t cruiser. As for Pyotr sailing this year, I posted an article that says the biggest task force yet is about to visit the Med. in '08, if they are planning on including Slava or Kirov I dont know.

--------------------------------------------