Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<
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You could say that any nation with support of USA and training could be seen as the best. This isnt any sort of miracle. Todays arab world with US training and aircrafts are also one of the worlds best.
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Quote:You could say that any nation with support of USA and training could be seen as the best. This isnt any sort of miracle. Todays arab world with US training and aircrafts are also one of the worlds best.
Even then being attacked by 3 different countries at the same time and still kicking their asses is commendable dont you think?
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LOL, Israel be itself wont last a day. Attacking israel is like attacking USA. So big deal USA pushed back 3 Arab nations. Did you expect any other result?
____________________________________________
"Disclaimer: Please add a hint of sarcasm while reading any thing I post"
Persians are willing to lose every thing except their honor.
Anglo-Saxons are willing to lose their honor but nothing else.
Bring it on, Bring it on.
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The sour grapes response of the Islamoids here only drives the point home even further. Israel got some material support from the U.S. in '73....but it was all Israelis doing the dying and fighting.
The Arab countries have been patently inept at modern warfighting on any scale beyond skirt-dodging terror operations.
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Quote:LOL, Israel be itself wont last a day. Attacking israel is like attacking USA. So big deal USA pushed back 3 Arab nations. Did you expect any other result?
Ali my friend you cant be serious, Israel at the time especially the Yom Kippor war was embargoed by the French and that means the supplies for the Mirage 5's were cut off and that was the primary air defense fighter for Israel at the time.
They still despite the odds beat the carp out of the Arabs even when outnumbered 10 to 1.
that says something
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> B2spirit <
> Israel at the time especially the Yom Kippor war was embargoed by the French and that <
> means the supplies for the Mirage 5's were cut off and that was the primary air <
> defense fighter for Israel at the time. <
The Israeli Air Force had fifty Mirage-5 fighters on order but twenty had been delivered before the Yom Kippur War. The embargo affected the remaining thirty Mirage-5's and all spare parts from France. A bulk of the Israeli AF was comprised of of Mirage-3CJ's, Mirage-5's, A-4 Skyhawks, F-4 Phantom 2's, etc.
The IAF had previously owned F-4 Phantom 2's by the USN. The replacement F-4's were from the USAF and the IAF pilots commented that they were 'hotter' in performance. The A-4's suffered the worst in the early days of that war. The press gave the credit for the kills to the SAM-6, when in fact the SAM-6's contribution was to force the IAF aircraft to perform a "split-s" maneuver where they were torn up by the ZSU-23-4's.
The Egyptian pilots were proud of their efforts during the War of Yom Kippur because it was the first war between Israel and Egypt where the Egyptian Air Force was still fighting at the end of the war.
Adrian
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Truths about the Six-Day War: U.S. CIA & military secretly helped Israelis
Mid-East Realities, 11 June 1997
MER - Most of the lies and distortions about the Six Day War in 1967 when Israel occupied the Golan, West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, remain today 30 years later.
The reality is that Israel encouraged and then took advantage of that war for many political, economic, and territorial reasons. In the following column by Prof. Tanya Reinhart, she puts this into perspective in so far as Israel's attack on Syria and capture of the Golan in the last days of the war.
What history still does not properly record are:
Israel never was in military danger, the Israeli Army was always aware they could overpowered all the Arab armies.
The US CIA was greatly involved in providing Israel intelligence information that greatly helped them win the war in such a short time.
US military personnel, disguised as civilians and on secret missions to which they were sworn to secrecy, helped the Israelis with specific technical and intelligence-gathering operations.
Quote:The Egyptian pilots were proud of their efforts during the War of Yom Kippur because it was the first war between Israel and Egypt where the Egyptian Air Force was still fighting at the end of the war.
So was the AdA at the end of the campaign of France, the difference is that the French A-F had depleted the GAF before tha battle of Braitain started and had the highest kill/loss ratio of all Air Forces.
Wha tthe Arabs were proud of is that they didn't give up...
Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<
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We had no military aid in 1967, and our fleet of French aircraft was hardly superior to our foes. We were outnumbered 3 to 1 yet you know the result. Infact, aircraft loss ratio in 1973 was even more lopsided, so go figure..
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The very fact that Israel exists today is because of the UK ans US state.
'Arabs', are at a technological disadvantage when one side is given 'everything' wouldnt you say? It destabalises the region. Thus the mess thate exists today between Israel and the palestinians.
*Shorten your links man.. Thank you. -Apex
This message has been edited by apexace2000 on May 9, 2008 7:58 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 11:32 AM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 11:30 AM
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Considering that Israel payed for all its weapons in 1967, and 80% of them now, I don't see this happening, especially with our own defence industry that can easily compensate if needed.
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I'm not denying that Arab armies have performed poorly in the past with regards to modern warfare. But it's delusional to think that Israel, with a population of barely 7 million and it's 20 square kilometers can wage self-sustaining wars. Israel misses the population, the industry and economy to fight effectively and independently for anything more than a few weeks. Everything from fuel, to weapons and ammunition has to be imported. I'm not criticizing Israeli's will and determination to fight wars, but it's capacity.
It's good to be the king.
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Exactly, Israel lacks the industrial power, land mass and population. Thus relying on western powers to supplement their disadvantages on the playing field.
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Ironically, and claim to an Israeli "lack of industrial power" seems ludicrous when comparing it to the Arab military industries. Compared to Israel, which produces much of its own equipment alone, the Arabs import allmost everything, so put things into proportion.
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Err, did you forget that the Arab nations received free Soviet equipment which dwarfed
whatever arsenal Israel had? Or are you just pruposely ommiting the fact?
They allso received Soviet intellegence, technitians,trainers,
and free supplies in times of war.
It didnt help them much.
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//"Not to the point of 'given' nuclear bombs according to the sources above."//
Ahh, but helping our nuclear project did not effect the numerous arab-Israeli war results.
//"No doubt training and tactics was of poor quality, regarding soviet aid."//
You seem very certain of the 'poor quality' of soviet training, yet many of the warsaw
pact countries received the same training, and were pretty apt in the art of war.
The Soviets did not limit themselves, like the Americans-Israel, to simply "Giving" the
arabs equipment: They trained the arabs, manned some of their aircraft/SAM's, sent them
technitians, built up their logistical base, and provided them with equipment that dwarfed
whatever Israel had in its arsenal.
You can give a thousand excuses to why the arabs lost those wars, none of them stand in the face of knowledgeable scrutiny.
This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 9, 2008 12:11 PM
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Israel isn't unpenetrable to attack or invasion. They had a helping 'hand'.
As for the 'Arabs' failure, tactics must have been the key issue here, however as preposted, I have no sources to back that.
Also with the 'handed' nuclear weapons, it doesnt stop the fact that Israel can use this as a trump card as well as an insignia of 'given' power.
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 12:18 PM
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//"Israel isn't unpenetrable to attack or invasion. They had a helping 'hand'."//
No one denied it, yet the arabs got military aid dwarfing the Israeli arsenal,
they still lost.
//"As for the 'Arabs' failure, tactics must have been the key issue here, however as preposted, I have no sources to back that."//
"Arabs at war" states the deficiency in the arab soldier's education, the low level of
middle-class officers, and the culture which squashes free-thinking and improvisation.
These are all arab deficiencies, not Soviet ones.
//"Also with the 'handed' nuclear weapons, it doesnt stop the fact that Israel can use this as a trump card as well as an insignia of 'given' power."//
Theres a difference between "can use" and "did use". Nuclear weapons did not win the wars of 1948-1967-1973, nor is there any evidence of their aiding us militarily in
those battles.
Edit: Can any mod re-set the format of this thread? Its getting really annoying
This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 9, 2008 12:30 PM This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 9, 2008 12:29 PM
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No doubt Israel wishes not to use the Nukes, still, having them can still be used as a wager.Much like France, UK, Russia, U.S and China.
"Arabs at war" states the deficiency in the arab soldier's education, the low level of
middle-class officers, and the culture which squashes free-thinking and improvisation.
These are all arab deficiencies, not Soviet ones."
As you quoted; It would appear 'Arabs' tactics and quality was at fault.
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 12:38 PM
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//"No doubt Israel wishes not to use the Nukes,
still, having them can still be used as a wager.
Much like France, UK, Russia, U.S and China."//
Yet there is little written evidence which implies that Israel benefitted militarily
'during the wars themselves' from those nukes. It won those wars conventionally.
Indeed Nukes might have played a deterrant to arab non-conventional attacks,
yet its not what we are speaking of here, is it?
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When concerned with the argument of western aid to push the balance in favour of Israel it most certainly is. No doubt the opposing forces received no help from powers that mattered, U.S, U.K.
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 12:51 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 12:47 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on May 9, 2008 12:44 PM
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//"When concerned with the argument of western aid to push the balance in favour
of Israel it most certainly is."//
The military balance of power, equipment wise, was allways in the Arabs favour.
Nukes played a non-conventional deterrant, yet they played no part in the numerous
wars between Israel and its Arab neighbors. You are playing with semantics here.
//"No doubt the opposing forces received no help from powers that mattered, U.S, U.K."//
The UK is a power that mattered, while the USSR isnt huh . The sheer
amount of equipment given to Egypt and Syria in 1967 and 1973 dwarfed
anything Israel had.
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Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<
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Actually the Soviets provided far less aid to Arabs than what the West was giving to Israel. Soviet government always feared deserters and thus never sold Egypt the best, those Mig-15s should have never been in a position to engage Mirage fighters. Egypt lacked quality AA missiles and the old R-11 engines in the Migs should have been swapped out. Brezhnev sent in a few Su-15s in the 70s but they were rarely sent in the air, and they were too late for the 6 day war.
--------------------------------------------
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Mig15, 17, 19, 21, Sus 7, 20 etc. For aircraft only, and i wont mention the Russian instructors flying combat missions on Mig-21.
Got another bright idea?
Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<
This message has been edited by sampaix on May 10, 2008 5:21 PM
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Actually you are wrong. The amount of military hardware transferred to Egypt by the Soviets following the 1967 war was unprecedented. The interlocking SAM system west of the canal was alone the second most advanced in the world (after moscow), and included 87 SAM battaries. This is just one example.
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If the balance of power was on arab side they would have won. People forget to think with logics. All the SAMs of egypt was destroyed because with help of US satalite pictures they found a weakspot attacked it and they continued attacking the SAM sites from behind. Its also logical for the Israeli side to say that arabs had enough material and they won with dignity. And they also counter argument when you say its because of US and Britians help only. If arabs had all the aid they could get from the west they would have won. It was all about who got the most aid and who the west wanted to win the war.
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You are talking about the amount, how many Su-15s were flying Egyptian colors during the 6 day war? How many of the Mig-21s have been upgraded to Soviet standards to go up against the newer Mirage fighters? This was the time when a radar was outdated in 5 years, when AA missiles had to constantly upgraded to deal with ever increasing speed and agility, Breznev could have given the Egyptians far more. Soviets cared far less about helping their "allies" than NATO was helping Israel.
--------------------------------------------
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//"You are talking about the amount, how many Su-15s were flying Egyptian colors during the 6 day war?"//
Very few, yet if you are trying to imply that Arab equipment was less advanced, you will
have a hard time proving that. While Egypt had Mig-15's, it allso had Mig 19's and 21's, which
were the backbone of its airforce, and while Israel had the Mirage, most of its 1967 aircraft
were much more primitive, including the Voture and Mystere'.
Tank-wise, the backbone of the Israeli armored forces in 1967 was still comprised of Shermans and AMX's.
Hardly a war winning arsenal.
//" Soviets cared far less about helping their "allies" than NATO was helping Israel. "//
And yet the sheer volume of the equipment they gave dwarfed anything the US sent.
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No Su-15s were present during the 6 day war, Brezhnev only sent some in '72. The Mig-21s that were in Egypt were all given by Kruschev, they were not upgraded like they should have been. Its very easy to prove just based on the fact that they still had R-11 engines, at the same time the Soviet Mig-21s saw 2x upgrades from R-11 to R-13 and from R-13 to R-25. Technology moved so fast that by the time the war started their Mig-21s were obsolete by Moscow standards. If there were Su-15s in the air it would have been a whole different story, Mirage wouldnt even know what hit it.
The quantity means little when its so outdated, Brezhnev could have done far more.
--------------------------------------------
This message has been edited by filin on May 9, 2008 8:20 PM
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//"No Su-15s were present during the 6 day war, Brezhnev only sent some in '72."//
They had relatively advanced fighters, and though Israel had the mirage, its mainstay was much more primitive aircraft.
//"Its very easy to prove just based on the fact that they still had R-11 engines, at the same time the Soviet Mig-21s saw 2x upgrades from R-11 to R-13 and from R-13 to R-25. Technology moved so fast that by the time the war started their Mig-21s were obsolete by Moscow standards."//
Depends to what aircraft you compare them. Most of Israel's arsenal was allso less than impressive, equipment wise.
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Those vanilla Migs could handle unmodified Mirage IIIs, but Mirage 5 was a different story. Without the upgrades they became obsolete during the war, and I wont even try to go into Mig-15 which was just flying metal rubble by that time. If you want to try to tell me Israeli tech wasnt that much superior show me how many F-86s they used in the 6 day war, other than that Mig-15s stood no chance.
--------------------------------------------
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//"Those vanilla Migs could handle unmodified Mirage IIIs, but Mirage 5 was a different story. "//
That's where ur argument goes bust. Israel never had Mirage 5's. It was supposed to get them, but after 1967, France put an embargo on all French weapons to Israel.
//"If you want to try to tell me Israeli tech wasnt that much superior show me how many F-86s they used in the 6 day war, other than that Mig-15s stood no chance."//
Israel had just as primitive air-craft. Most of Israel's arsenal at the time included old Votours and Mystere's. While you try claiming the Arabs had to fight with Mig-15's, the VAST majority of their air-force was made up of Mig-19's and 21's.
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Quote:Quote filin:
Those vanilla Migs could handle unmodified Mirage IIIs, but Mirage 5 was a different story.
Production and operational experience
The Mirage 5 first flew at Melun-Villaroche on May 19, 1967, piloted by Hervé Leprince-Ringuet.
The Israeli order for 50 Mirage 5 Js was signed in April 7, 1966. However, as a result of a French arms embargo in January of 1969, they could not be delivered, entering into service in the French Air Force instead.
In April 1976, the Mirage 5Fs of 3/13 Colmar Fighter Squadron won the Vulcan Trophy at the inter-allied Air Tactical Weapons contest.
A total 517 units have been produced for 11 different countries. The Mirage 5 is Dassault’s most widely exported combat aircraft. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5.html?L=1>>;
This message has been edited by sampaix on May 10, 2008 5:21 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on May 9, 2008 10:37 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on May 9, 2008 10:31 PM
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Wow, my bad, didnt realize that after the 6 days of war Israel and Egypt became the bestest of friends and never had air combat ever again. Israel got 60+ Mirage 5s in the early 70s. Thunder your just a big talking pile of horse manure, why dont you go beat off to some of those graphs of yours.
As far as the Migs, 1 in every 3 planes was a Mig-15/17, thats a good chunk of the air force. Lets add 60 Il-28 bombers from the 40s. Now lets move a little forward to the Mig-19 which still wasnt on par with the newer Mirage of which there were 100+. So that leaves a little more than 100 Mig-21s that could actually hold up against the Mirage IIIs, fantastic. Now factor in how many were destroyed in the preliminary attack, and youve got a large air force made up of old junk.
Unfortunately for Egypt USSR didnt even bother to train Egyptian pilots any aerial tactics,
"We were lacking in the theory of air combat: the Russians had given us training but not good tactics. They trained us to fly at Mach 2 and do high-level intercepts and night fighting. All of this did not happen in the 1967 War with Israel – it was all fought on the deck. You train for something, and if it doesn’t happen that way, you aren’t prepared."
"When the Russians came they emphasised training to make us staff and general officers. They didn’t teach us tactics but they succeeded in teaching us to think in a proper and organized manner..."
Quote:Mirage 5s in the early 70s. Thunder your just a big talking pile of horse manure, why dont you go beat off to some of those graphs of yours
=================== REWRITE RUSSIAN HISTORY....
NO MIRAGE 5 WAS EVER DELIVERED TO THE IAF THEY ALL SERVED WITH THE AdA.
Production and operational experience
The Mirage 5 first flew at Melun-Villaroche on May 19, 1967, piloted by Hervé Leprince-Ringuet.
The Israeli order for 50 Mirage 5 Js was signed in April 7, 1966. However, as a result of a French arms embargo in January of 1969, they could not be delivered, entering into service in the French Air Force instead.
In April 1976, the Mirage 5Fs of 3/13 Colmar Fighter Squadron won the Vulcan Trophy at the inter-allied Air Tactical Weapons contest.
A total 517 units have been produced for 11 different countries. The Mirage 5 is Dassault’s most widely exported combat aircraft. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5.html?L=1>>;;;;
This message has been edited by sampaix on May 10, 2008 5:23 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on May 9, 2008 10:48 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on May 9, 2008 10:46 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on May 9, 2008 10:45 PM
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Thunder, your fowl French smell is stinking up this thread, just a big talking pile of horse manure.
"- 51 Nesher S single-seat fighters, received between 05/1971 and 02/1974.
- 10 Nesher T two-seat combat trainers, received in 1974 (five of these were later sold to South Africa, for conversion to Cheetah D: these aircraft wore serials 858 thru 862)."
Quote:Those vanilla Migs could handle unmodified Mirage IIIs, but Mirage 5 was a different story.
.
Quote: Israel got 60+ Mirage 5s in the early 70s. Thunder your just a big talking pile of horse manure, why dont you go beat off to some of those graphs of yours
=================== REWRITE RUSSIAN HISTORY...
NO MIRAGE 5 WAS EVER DELIVERED TO THE IAF THEY ALL SERVED WITH THE AdA.
Production and operational experience
The Mirage 5 first flew at Melun-Villaroche on May 19, 1967, piloted by Hervé Leprince-Ringuet.
The Israeli order for 50 Mirage 5 Js was signed in April 7, 1966. However, as a result of a French arms embargo in January of 1969, they could not be delivered, entering into service in the French Air Force instead.
In April 1976, the Mirage 5Fs of 3/13 Colmar Fighter Squadron won the Vulcan Trophy at the inter-allied Air Tactical Weapons contest.
A total 517 units have been produced for 11 different countries. The Mirage 5 is Dassault’s most widely exported combat aircraft. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5.html>
SOUR
