"Korea has not been the only battle ground since the end of the Second World War. Men have fought and died in Malaya, in Greece, in the Philippines, in Algeria and Cuba, and Cyprus and almost continuously on the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. No nuclear weapons have been fired. No massive nuclear retaliation has been considered appropriate. This is another type of war, new in its intensity, ancient in its origin--war by guerrillas, subversives, insurgents, assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat; by infiltration, instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It is a form of warfare uniquely adapted to what has been strangely called 'wars of liberation,' to undermine the efforts of new and poor countries to maintain the freedom that they have finally achieved. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires in those situations where we must counter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a new and wholly different kind of military training."-President Kennedy's Address at Graduation Exercises of the U.S. Military Academy, 1962
------------------------------
"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss - the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year - sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
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Someone who supported the Soviet Union is not one to be listened too.
"Korea has not been the only battle ground since the end of the Second World War. Men have fought and died in Malaya, in Greece, in the Philippines, in Algeria and Cuba, and Cyprus and almost continuously on the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. No nuclear weapons have been fired. No massive nuclear retaliation has been considered appropriate. This is another type of war, new in its intensity, ancient in its origin--war by guerrillas, subversives, insurgents, assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat; by infiltration, instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It is a form of warfare uniquely adapted to what has been strangely called 'wars of liberation,' to undermine the efforts of new and poor countries to maintain the freedom that they have finally achieved. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires in those situations where we must counter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a new and wholly different kind of military training."-President Kennedy's Address at Graduation Exercises of the U.S. Military Academy, 1962
------------------------------
"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss - the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year - sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
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This is one man, that would your ass in a debate.
Some don't like his for saying what people don't want to hear, and that is....the truth.
Lets be honest for a minute, Israel goes around accusing some nations as terror states, and to some degree their right, but as the saying goes, it takes one to know one.
Israel is a terrorist nation, that's not an opinion, but a fact, and if you have to ask for proof, than you are blind.
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Israel is a terrorist nation, that's not an opinion, but a fact, and if you have to ask for proof, than you are blind.
OK, lets say we take your extremely biased rhetoric as factual (even though there is ample evidence to the contrary) and Israel is a "terrorist nation".
Then there sure as hell are A LOT of "terrorist nations" out there much worse than Israel, including Sudan, the PRC, India, Russia, etc etc etc. wouldn't you say?
Or does them being "terrorist" be exclusive to them being Jewish and owning Arab a** only?
This message has been edited by Phoenikz on May 17, 2008 5:21 AM
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"Korea has not been the only battle ground since the end of the Second World War. Men have fought and died in Malaya, in Greece, in the Philippines, in Algeria and Cuba, and Cyprus and almost continuously on the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. No nuclear weapons have been fired. No massive nuclear retaliation has been considered appropriate. This is another type of war, new in its intensity, ancient in its origin--war by guerrillas, subversives, insurgents, assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat; by infiltration, instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It is a form of warfare uniquely adapted to what has been strangely called 'wars of liberation,' to undermine the efforts of new and poor countries to maintain the freedom that they have finally achieved. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires in those situations where we must counter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a new and wholly different kind of military training."-President Kennedy's Address at Graduation Exercises of the U.S. Military Academy, 1962
------------------------------
"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss - the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year - sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
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Oakridge is an American fool who thinks anyone whos opinion differ from America is seen as a bad person.
George Galaway is a very respectable man, so who really cares what he says? Not you off course or most Americans because you lack proper educations, but many many people aroudn the world do...
ps - Go Hezbollah, keeping the Israeli scum in Israel (Palestine0
"We are not warmongers like the American goverment. They are warmongers. They are always after a war! We are not like this. However, When this nations honor and this homelands intrests are at stake, we will fight to the bitter end"
"Isn't it ridiculous that those who have deployed 160,000 troops in Iraq accuse us of intervening there?"
Ahmadinejad
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//"Then there sure as hell are A LOT of "terrorist nations" out there much worse than Israel, including Sudan, the PRC, India, Russia, etc etc etc. wouldn't you say?"//
I think we could even include the US in this paradigm.
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A terrorist nation is set by the definition you want to believe. IMO, it's one that uses police/military to make civilians fear for their lives, generally in support of a government police. In this sense, Israel is what I like to term an "external" terrorist state, in that it primarily does this against other countries civilians. Countries like North Korea are what I like to term "Internal" terrorist state's in that they primarily target their own citizens, though these countries often target external countries too.
Oakridge is an American fool who thinks anyone whos opinion differ from America is seen as a bad person.
George Galaway is a very respectable man, so who really cares what he says? Not you off course or most Americans because you lack proper educations, but many many people aroudn the world do...
ps - Go Hezbollah, keeping the Israeli scum in Israel (Palestine)
Oakridge is far from being a fool, though it's true to say he's right wing.
"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."
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Israel may or may not be a "terrorist nation" but if it is, at least it only "terrorizes" others, and not Israelis.
However, the Islamic Regime of Iran is unique in that sense at it has been terrorizing not just others but also its own citizens since its existence. I mean, hey, we sure can't argue with highest execution rate per capita in the world today.
Its a great joke to see the so-called Iranians clapping for George Galloway when their own nation is so much worse. ROFLMAo.
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What specifically defines a "terrorist nation"?
------------------------------------------------------------
Lets see, how about when a nation uses collective punishment, would you consider that a terrorist act?
How about when a country detroys crops in order to get another people to leave, would you consider this a terrorist act?
These are just some of the action Israel uses, if you need more examples, don't hesitate to ask.
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how is execution of criminals like armed robbers, kidnappers, rapists, childmolesters, murderers, drugcartel members, traitor separatist groups who compromise national security and integrity in anyway related to terrorism
Just because you like to treat your filthy criminal animals like royalty and waste your hard earned tax-money to feed these scum and put a roof over their head doesn't make our way of dealing with them wrong in any way.
I'm not saying our system is perfect, there are occasional execution of people for chastity crimes like adultery and prostitution which is wrong and that is based on stoneage backward islamic law which should be removed from the law system, however it's hardly what you see in the media, this type of executions are very limited , a couple each year, they don't even come close to 1% of the total, but nevertheless that does not make it right.
But if you ask me, in total, I think we should execute more, zero tolerance especially for larger narcotic crimes benefits society, especially thanks to the radically increased opium/heroin production cross the border thanks to the americans.
And you wan't to discuss death of innocent, how about a million civilians, mostly women and children in Iraq, if that is not terrorism, then I don't know what is.
//"Lets see, how about when a nation uses collective punishment, would you consider that a terrorist act?"//
The west collectively punished Iraq in the 90's, which lead to a food and medical shortage leading to the death of thousands of children. Much like Gaza only more brutal.
//"How about when a country detroys crops in order to get another people to leave, would you consider this a terrorist act?"//
Dont mix a country with specific individuals.
//"These are just some of the action Israel uses, if you need more examples, don't hesitate to ask."//
Feel free.
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And, 'in this sense', how is it different from Russia, the US, or even Brittain?
In terms of Iraq/Afghanistan the UK and US are clearly trying to help the people.
And you wan't to discuss death of innocent, how about a million civilians, mostly women and children in Iraq, if that is not terrorism, then I don't know what is.
Ah yes, Iraqi's kill other Iraqi's and the Americans get the blame.
"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."
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//"In terms of Iraq/Afghanistan the UK and US are clearly trying to help the people."//
And Israel is hardly trying to raise a Palestinian civilian death toll. It matters little, because the US/UK engage in targetted killings, arrests without trials, and bombings of civilian neighborhoods. When you speak of Israel as a 'terrorist nation', you use exactly these examples to prove it. In this case, they are pretty much the same.
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And Israel is hardly trying to raise a Palestinian civilian death toll. It matters little, because the US/UK engage in targetted killings, arrests without trials, and bombings of civilian neighborhoods. When you speak of Israel as a 'terrorist nation', you use exactly these examples to prove it. In this case, they are pretty much the same.
None of which corresponds to what I said, clearly inventing yourself a statement to respond to. Terrorising and killing are different. You can go for a zero death toll and still be terrorising. The US and UK are not there to terrorise the people, they are there to stabilise and rebuild the country in the shortest time possible and yes they use force but to attack those who try to kill innocent civilians for wanting a better life. Israel uses force to attack people who wish to kill innocent civilians too, which is fine. BUT, it doesn't just do that and here's where the issue lies, it uses its force's to scare and terrorise intentionally innocent civilians in neighbouring countries.
The fact is, Israel is a tiny scrap of land, and it will do anything to hold onto as much as it can.
"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."
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//"None of which corresponds to what I said, clearly inventing yourself a statement to respond to."//
To be fair, claiming the aim of the US/Uk to 'help' iraqi's is allso a bit of a cop-out from my original statement. Here's the reason why: Even terrorist nations or terrorist actions can have 'good intentions' (at least in the eyes of the beholder) behind them, yet it does not negate from the action itself.
//"Terrorising and killing are different. You can go for a zero death toll and still be terrorising. The US and UK are not there to terrorise the people, they are there to stabilise and rebuild the country in the shortest time possible and yes they use force but to attack those who try to kill innocent civilians for wanting a better life. "//
But terror has little to do with the objectives, rather 'the method'. The US/UK are arguably trying to rebuild Iraq (some cynics would claim otherwise), and the IDF is trying to protect its civilians, yet the actions of all 3 nations lead to the same consequences: Targetted killings, colleteral damage, and collective punishment (Gaza or Iraq in the 90's).
Im asking how the methods are different, which make, in your eyes, Israel a terrorist state, while the US/UK bastions of human rights.
//"Israel uses force to attack people who wish to kill innocent civilians too, which is fine. BUT, it doesn't just do that and here's where the issue lies, it uses its force's to scare and terrorise intentionally innocent civilians in neighbouring countries."//
Change the words from Israel to US and it will sound like an anti-Iraq war muslim article on Al-Jazeera. If you think for a moment that the IDF tries to kill civilians you are sorely mistaken. Ive served in the territories and was tought over months of basic training that no matter what, you do not harm a civilian. There are very strict rules of engagement which are meant to minimize colleteral, and the results are one of the lowest civilian casualty ratio's in any low-intensity conflict in the world. IDF doctors frequently treat Palestinian civilians hurt in the crossfire, or ones that simply come for aid, while even wounded terrorists are taken care of. Civilians from Gaza receive Pro-bono treatment in Israeli hospitals, while Israel continues to supply food to Gaza eventhough the Depots containing the supplies are being targetted by Hamas daily.
You are sorely ignorant about the IDF and its methods. Dont fall for the same media twists on Israel which portray the US and UK as terrorist nations as well. All 3 have very much in common with their methods and purity of arms.
//"The fact is, Israel is a tiny scrap of land, and it will do anything to hold onto as much as it can."//
Like leave the Sini in exchange peace, most of the west bank in the 90's, all of S.Lebanon, and Gaza. You did not generalize one bit....
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I dont see the logic in ur argument. Any facto pointed
out in regards to what the Israeli STATE does towards
other nations you dodge by mentioning other nations who
have done similar stuff.
The only flaw is that you think b/c the nations u mention
who use same tactics are today supposed leading nations of
a supposed free world then ur argument gains upper hand
and everyone should look away when Israel commits atrocities.
Now Im no Iranian who in any shape or form thinks the regime
in Iran is one representative of its ppl. Nor do I support
its policies. But whenever the discussion is about Iran I stick
to it.
This time the discussion is about Israel. And why should ppl
care what Israel does as a state. Because supposedly Israel
is a free and democratic country which means a higher bar
is set when comparing Israel to for ex North Korea.
Quote:Someone who supported the Soviet Union is not one to be listened too.
Is that so? so who sets these standards? Just b/c the Red Scare was implented
in the US by lunatics such as Joseph McCarty doesnt mean that the American
people has a superior understanding of what is right or wrong (communism in
this case). The whole anti-communism thing was one of the greatest "state
promoted propaganda" campaigns of the 20th century by a western democratic
country.
Regardless of the argument of thinking that one "always knows best" which
seems to be the pedestal ur sitting on even if Galloway did support
the soviets (whether wrong or right) does that categorize him as unfit for
any other kind of expertise?
PS. Im in no shape or form a leftist nevertheless a communism. But I share
the views of Galloway in that "father to son" tone and attitude towards
other nations who dont think, look or run their countries like us is wrong
and will only lead to more conflict!
//"I dont see the logic in ur argument. Any facto pointed
out in regards to what the Israeli STATE does towards
other nations you dodge by mentioning other nations who
have done similar stuff."//
No, its not this. When a westerner praises American and British actions while calling Israel a terrorist state for THE SAME ACTIONS, I tend to rail against it. Allso, though it is justified to critisize Israel, this critisism sometimes goes over the top to single out our state and whitewash actions by other nations which are far harsher.
Oh, and we tend to be 'crucified' in the international media for actions that any other country in conflict does for its own national security, most of the times using much harsher methods.
//"Now Im no Iranian who in any shape or form thinks the regime
in Iran is one representative of its ppl. Nor do I support
its policies. But whenever the discussion is about Iran I stick
to it."//
If I called Iran a colonizer who killes thousands of arabs for its own imperialist Ideals, wouldnt you rail against the hypocricy?
//" a higher bar is set when comparing Israel to for ex North Korea."//
Israel seems to be in a unique standard for critisism. Noware did I say Israel didn't do bad things in the past or in the present, but many people blame Israel for everything that is wrong today and was wrong in the past 60 years, and the world says absolutely nothing about anything a thousand times worse that other Muslims do to other Muslims, and I ask, why the double standards?
This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 17, 2008 9:22 PM This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 17, 2008 9:20 PM
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well for the thing of everyone blaiming everything on Israel,
lets leave that as those are childish gameplays and accusations.
In reagards to why u compare Israel to UK or US ok, fair enough
now that u explained that some ppl from those nations criticize
Israel.
In regards to what Iran does whether its colonization, proxy war or
whatever, as I said, debates here in WAFF usually derail into leaving
the subject at hand and pulling the other debaters nations in.
Also just b/c I am iranian doesnt mean by default I support every policy
and action of Iran.
But ultimately this thread is about Israel and its actions. Not the US
nor Iran.
Regarding Israels "special position for critisizm". Its not only Israel,
any nation who is or claims to be demorcatic, free and a respecter of
human rights and values is in the same position.
Did u forgot gitmo? did u forget the accusations against germany when
they handed over "terror" suspects to CIA agents?
The thing is that the Israeli state accuses its enemies (PLO, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH etc)
for using inhumane tactics n unlawful and immoral methods (using civilian areas as
launching sites) but the very same state then uses different methods but still
unlawful and illegal and immoral tactics.
Collective punishment?
bombarding civilian areas?
defying UN resolutions?
and then accusing Iran and other nations for not following UN demands?!
My point is we cant chose when to only categorize a nation as a democratic and
free nation only when its fit, but in all areas and fields the standard has to hold.
//"well for the thing of everyone blaiming everything on Israel,
lets leave that as those are childish gameplays and accusations."//
90% of the media attention in the region goes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, despite the fact that 50 running conflicts worldwide dwarf anything that goes on here. Further, Israel is subject to hundreds of resolutions, while nations like Syria are subject to none. Basically, take 50 of the worst human rights abusing nations since 1945, add up the resolutions created against them, it wont reach a third of those enacted against Israel. It might seem like a joke to you, but the obsessive focus of the UN and world media on Israeli actions derives from bias on the subject, and not merely a 'unique interest in a specific conflict'. If this attention were fair and balanced, who cares, but its not, now is it?
//"In regards to what Iran does whether its colonization, proxy war or
whatever, as I said, debates here in WAFF usually derail into leaving
the subject at hand and pulling the other debaters nations in."//
The current thread was about George Galloway and Hezbollah. It got derailed to talking about Israel yet I didnt see you complain about that.
//"Regarding Israels "special position for critisizm". Its not only Israel,
any nation who is or claims to be demorcatic, free and a respected or
human rights and values is in the same position."//
And yet nations in the Coalition currently stationed in Iraq, who, unlike Israel, are not fighting to defend their own citizens, are critisized in a far milder manner than we are. When was the last time people proposed to boycott US and UK academic institutions or products? When was the last time the Iraq war was termed a "Genocide by the coalition"?
//"Collective punishment?"//
Ahh Im glad that you mentioned that. When the west raised the sanctions on Iraq in the 90's it was simply labled... sanctions. The same is done in Gaza, yet Israel is being hailed as creating a crime against humanity due to that.
//"bombarding civilian areas?"//
Pretty much done by every nation in every war, singled out again here, despite our enemy firing at us from those civilian concentrations.
//"defying UN resolutions?"//
Oh please. The non-binding UN resolutions that the muslim block creates every week against Israel? Give me a break.
This message has been edited by Yoadm on May 17, 2008 9:43 PM
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