Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'


China "had already had a lot of help from Israel", said one source


Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.

In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.

Neither is it clear whether a Lavi aircraft was permanently transferred to China or if one was given to Chengdu for a specific period of time. When asked, the same Russian engineer commented that he had never heard anyone in Chengdu suggest that China had a acquired a Pakistan Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 for study to inform J-10 development - a claim that has been made elsewhere in the past.

Officials from Israel Aerospace Industries, previously Israel Aircraft Industries, declined to comment on the Russian claims.

Jane's has heard how Russian engineers met Israeli counterparts at Chinese facilities and often saw documentation and technical drawings marked in Hebrew. When asked about the J-10, one Russian department head remarked: "What Chengdu aircraft? There is no Chengdu aircraft. Everything they have came from somebody else."

There is no doubt that some J-10 design and development work was done in Russia. For example, in 2000 - when there were still flaws in the basic aircraft - Chengdu engineers took a number of different J-10 models to Russia for extensive wind-tunnel testing. A key Russian skill was the ability to conduct detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in a horizontal wind tunnel.

One Russian specialist involved in those and other tests said: "They had already had a lot of help from Israel and what they wanted most of all was to validate their own people and their testing methods rather than the design. Chengdu already has access to a huge aerodynamics facility with underground wind tunnels."

Those Russian specialists who have worked in China are often scathing about China's real level of design capabilities and have become more so as China relies less and less on foreign industrial input. They remain impressed, however, by the scale of resources and funding that has been poured into China's programmes.

"The advance in facilities at Chengdu has been astonishing over the last 20 years. They now have a huge site with completely new test and development facilities, laboratories and an entirely new production line - quite apart from what was there to begin with. Chengdu is the only Chinese manufacturer to maintain its own design bureau. At Shenyang they have only a small office that can make small changes. Chengdu on the other hand is sitting in China's Silicon Valley. The nearby town of Mianyang is a major centre for China's electronics industry and also has a big aerodynamics research facility of its own [the China Air Dynamics Research and Development Centre]," Jane's was told.

However, the potential impact of the Sichuan earthquake of 11 May on the aviation industry centred around Chengdu could be severe. There were particular fears for the research facility at Mianyang, one of the towns close to the epicentre of the quake reported to have been completely destroyed. With the disaster striking at the heart of China's aviation hub, it was hard not to see the J-10 project - and China's aviation industry as a whole - suffering considerable setbacks.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/systems/jdw/jdw080519_2_n.shtml

Israeli Lavi






J10

ha, no suprise there, the chinese need to show some independence. they're good at reproducing and modding but if they wanna be really show superpower status they need to show some originality

Why re-invent the wheel when you have something you can already get minus a couple of billions in developmental and research fees? Save the money for quantitative upgrades of the armed forces.

don't know if you have been around in the past 5 years or sth (don't think so since you are a waff regular).....this has been discussed over 1000000000000000000000000000000 times in the past few years.....so what's the purpose?

-------------------------------------------------

It came out on the 19th of May 2008. While the issue has been rehashed, it brings to light other news like the impressive advances in facilities in Sichuan and the fact that Israeli aid was largely used to validate existing research; a smart way of shortening the learning curve. They would not need them now as they would already have accumulated the necessary acumen and tech skill to make thier own things.

The jews give military tech to the Chinese so they would open there market for israel...... Hay Chinese know what jews want, and the jews know what the Chinese want......



P.S. Thats why we shouldn't trust fellas with trimed penises........

Tech exchanges are fairly common in fact. However, they are usually hush-hush issues. The is no different in fact. The Americans gave the Brits stuffs. The Brits have the Americans stuff. It would be silly to re-invent the wheel.

Justin stop it already man...... Israel is not supposed to hand over tech of that magnitude....... Also you remember about the harpys the jews sold the Chinese, we here in the U.S. weren't happy... So maybe you support our tech being handed over for free just so Israel can enjoy the Chinese market....... Justin these games are of a serious nature and what else would our supposed buddies sell to others who we may see as a future threat.......

Obviously, it depends on who owns the tech. If the ownership is yours, then you can do whatever you want with it. The Israelis already have a proficient military tech industry. It is not unthinkable that they have a lot of things to sell to other countries.

A lot of modern military day deals involve some form of tech transfer. As a matter of fact, it is becoming fairly common. The Euros, for example, were prepared to share everything with South Korea when the latter country was looking for a new fighter which the F15K won in the end.

Of course, it depends on the interests of the respective countries to sell them in the first place. The US did block the sale of the Phalcons to China because Phalcon originated from the US. However, they are obviously other deals which Israel and China made as well.

Where did you get this from, you can only get to see the whole thing if you pay for it.

Well someone must have signed up for the free Janes copy.

the first time around are purely practice

All major Chinese systems r foreign copies, nothing new in tat.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachit Barphukan- The brave Ahom general that repelled the Mughal invaders and protected Assamese integrity.

Kanaklata- The brave soul, who was martyred at the age of 16, in the Indian freedom movement.

JAI AAI ASSAM; HAIL MOTHER ASSAM!!!

All major Chinese systems r foreign copies, nothing new in tat.
---------
India just buys from other nations.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

The Israelis already have a proficient military tech industry. *********

RE: isreal theft of US military tech is legendary.......not to mention the designs of the Mirage V....

israel can improvise current system make them better... can they create?? thier record speaks for them selves..

@wootness
indian couldnt copy straight if thier life depended on it...

jezz u homos even copy paki music shamelessly and call it "home grown".... mhahhaha hahhah losers

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

India just buys from other nations.

Oh really, i suppose u would rather want India to go the Chinese way n reverse engineer aka China. No need to pay US for defence deals, simply steal frm thm.

@Paki mohajir- ur nation is a mimicry- tragic one- of India, dont tell us who can copy n wat. Pakistani music, culture, history, language, everything is indebted to India. Dont open ur mouth here refugee.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachit Barphukan- The brave Ahom general that repelled the Mughal invaders and protected Assamese integrity.

Kanaklata- The brave soul, who was martyred at the age of 16, in the Indian freedom movement.

JAI AAI ASSAM; HAIL MOTHER ASSAM!!!

@llakos

you really need to stop talking about c0cks, then again you're greek.

@the indian
at least China is advanced enough to copy/reverse engineer. sh1t, if my neighbor reverse engineered my car and made his own copy i'd be pretty fvcking impressed.

@Paki mohajir- ur nation is a mimicry- tragic one- of India, dont tell us who can copy n wat.****

RE: so your culture support being a cheat ?? and being a thief?? what a pathetic society u grow up in... no wonder no body wants to stay with your kind...



Pakistani music, culture, history, language, everything is indebted to India.*********

RE: muslims civilised india by introducting tech, farming tech, culture, gardens, taj mahal, good food, etc etc even paper money was pioneered by muslim rulers..

Dont open ur mouth here refugee.****
RE: as most indians have bad breath i suggest u immport paki made tooth paste... better than indian made ones.. cos i hear your condom factory and tooth paste factory use the labors... '

failure of indian made condom = FN and wootness existence

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

Prado cool it with the insults, or trouble is heading your way.


Whoever said winning isn't everything must be a loser...

//"RE: isreal theft of US military tech is legendary.......not to mention the designs of the Mirage V....

israel can improvise current system make them better... can they create?? thier record speaks for them selves.."//



Ofcourse, because the Merkava, Arrow, Phalcon, Lavi, Spyder, Barak systems are 'all' cheap copies..right?

Merkava, Arrow, Phalcon, Lavi, Spyder, Barak systems


Merkava please see 1980s Chieftan Tank

Arrow Please contact raytheon defense

Lavi us engine, us technological assistance




We might not be seen among those who pray and we might not fast with those who fast, but we believe in God because we are in dire need of Him. Our burden is onerous, our road is rough and our aim is high. We have reached this faith; we did not start with it. We arrived at it through sufferings and hardships and did not receive it by inheritance nor was it handed down to us conventionally. For this reason it is invaluable for us, being the fruit of our efforts.
)In memory of the Arab Prophet, 1 -April, 1943(

//"Merkava please see 1980s Chieftan Tank"//



Naturally. The whole concept for both tanks is the same!



//"Arrow Please contact raytheon defense"//



Are you denying that Israeli scientists developed the platform?



//"Lavi us engine, us technological assistance"//




And yet most of the Lavi was indigenous Israeli technology. These days, no platform is 100% 'home made': Even the Gripen is only 60% swedish.


These are only 3 examples out of dozens, btw.

Lavi still in production ?...
could tell us about its specs.

Ofcourse, because the Merkava, Arrow, Phalcon, Lavi, Spyder, Barak systems are 'all' cheap copies..right?***********

RE: about the phalcon i do know it had alot of critical US made components that is why the US did not allow u to sell to china.. a few years ago..

cheap copies?? did i say u make cheap copies????..lol u r reading too much

no doubt u folks have a genius for improvisation and making it better than the orginal. the kfir is a good example...

the inferior performing mirage engine (atar) was replaced with a USA build General Electric J79 engine. similarly the useless french made "majic" missiles were relaced with US and isreali made sidewinder and improved shafirs ...plus many other minor mods...

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

muslims civilised india by introducting tech, farming tech, culture, gardens, taj mahal, good food, etc etc even paper money was pioneered by muslim rulers..

Paper money was the rule of the day, credit card n plastic money is used these days, even elecronic banking. One country may pioneer it but it doesnt mean tat others cant do the same. Just a coincidence tat the Muslims ruled India at tat point of time.

Tech? Oh really, wat tech? Indians in the ancient era were pioneers in algebra n astronomy as well as medicine, Indian culture is far stronger, else it wouldnt have survived 1000 years of foreign onslaught, taj mahal is the exception, if u see the hand made sculptures of ancient Indian temples n monuments u will know wat architecture is about.

Y do u bother postin whn u have no knowledge watsoever.

Result of army atrocities in Kashmir- PradoTLC existence. No wonder u hate the Indian army so much Prado.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachit Barphukan- The brave Ahom general that repelled the Mughal invaders and protected Assamese integrity.

Kanaklata- The brave soul, who was martyred at the age of 16, in the Indian freedom movement.

JAI AAI ASSAM; HAIL MOTHER ASSAM!!!

//"RE: about the phalcon i do know it had alot of critical US made components that is why the US did not allow u to sell to china.. a few years ago.."//



The US did not allow it because it had advanced components it did not want falling into chinese hands. The Israeli Harpy, for instance, an anti-radar Suicide UAV was offered to China but the deal broke down due to a US veto, despite the Harpy having only Israeli components.




//"no doubt u folks have a genius for improvisation and making it better than the orginal. the kfir is a good example...

the inferior performing mirage engine (atar) was replaced with a USA build General Electric J79 engine. similarly the useless french made "majic" missiles were relaced with US and isreali made sidewinder and improved shafirs ...plus many other minor mods... "//




You are generalizing over old products. The Israeli military industry has advanced lightyears since then, and creates its own unique equipment, like the Harpy, Barak, Spyder, Python-5, Arrow: These and many more are not copies of anything.

"It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments"

First time I read this and stop after hitting this.

Tech? Oh really, wat tech? Indians in the ancient era were pioneers in algebra n astronomy as well as medicine, Indian culture is far stronger,****

RE: u mean like wife buring, caste system etc etc ???...lol

clown no wonder hindus flocked to islam

else it wouldnt have survived 1000 years of foreign onslaught, taj mahal is the exception, if u see the hand made sculptures of ancient Indian temples n monuments u will know wat architecture is about.

Y do u bother postin whn u have no knowledge watsoever.****

RE: compared to u me a rocket scientist


Result of army atrocities in Kashmir- PradoTLC existence. No wonder u hate the Indian army so much Prado.****

RE: all kashmirs hate the indian army... nothing more than a gang raping, murdering thugs with uniforms who get medal by virtue of using fake encounters..


go home and try your new rubber i send u from pathan land

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

For those who claim the Chinese copy everything, you are dead wrong. Here's the proof:

 

The Lavi claim looks like an fake because it cannot be confirm, the mobil phones claim is real and can be copied because the real phones themselves are produced in China.

all kashmirs hate the indian army... nothing more than a gang raping, murdering thugs with uniforms who get medal by virtue of using fake encounters..

Oh really, sounds like u have personal experience wit them.

rest of ur gibberish is simply tat- gibberish.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachit Barphukan- The brave Ahom general that repelled the Mughal invaders and protected Assamese integrity.

Kanaklata- The brave soul, who was martyred at the age of 16, in the Indian freedom movement.

JAI AAI ASSAM; HAIL MOTHER ASSAM!!!

Alot of people dis China by always saying they copy and reverse engineer but I instead take it as a compliment. To be the best you have to begin by imitating the best. What good is it when your in or planning for a war if you only have ideas but don't have the ability to carry them out. Master the fundamental before you create, or else you'll only make garbage. Everyone acknoledges that what China is doing has draticallly closed the distance between itself and the leading arms makers, from leading indpendent analysts (Janes Defence, Defence News), US Pentagon Reports, EU Security Advisors and even the Russian Military (although very reluctantly). So keep on copying,stealing and reverse engineering China until you feel like your close enough then begin to innovate its the best and most efficient stategy.

I've never understood why some people think that Chinese weapons must somehow be inferior, just because they learned from someone else's experience when they developed them. Do you really care if you're shot down by a PL-8, or a Python 3? Does it really matter when you're hanging from the parachute who made the weapon?

Israel's cooperation with China is a well known, well documented episode. It did not occur in a vacuum. The US Administration (President Bill Clinton at the time) knew perfectly well what the Israelis were selling to the Chinese, and it was the US that had actually encouraged earlier Israeli arms deals with China (under the Reagan and Bush Administrations) as a means to strengthen China as a foil against Russian ambitions in the Far East.

Israel, however, shut down arms shipments to China when the US later changed its policy, something that America's European allies did not do. Britain continued to sell Spey engines to China, Italy continued to cooperate in the development of Chinese helicopters - all under the guise of "honoring existing contracts". ONLY the Israelis were willing to cancel their existing contracts, with all of the financial ramifications that this involved, just because the United States wanted it so.

Yes the Israelis shared technology with China, yes the United States approved of it, and yes, you can be sure that the J-10 is a far more lethal weapon than it otherwise would have been because of that cooperation. It happened, get over it.