F-35 Hurdles Remain

May 23, 2008 (by Eric L. Palmer) - “Since I can't put the exploding-head guy from Scanners in a reply field, you will have to assume that he is here.” So went a comment in the Aviation Week Blog by aerospace writer Bill Sweetman in a discussion about the F-35 program.


This program does have its polarized views, it’s moderate views and everyone will claim they are the moderate voice of reason.

The F-35 program still has a lot to figure out. And the marketing effort by Lockheed Martin is going full steam to keep up. So much so it’s hard to escape it. While reading the print copy of The Australian a few weeks back, right across the opposite page from a news piece on the F-35 was a very large Lockheed Martin F-35 advert stating the importance of the program: “It’s A Matter Of Commitment”. As if the general public, concerned about anything but Defence spending would know. But there it was.

A week ago while contributing to a humble news piece for Flight Global, on the Dutch goings-on with the F-35 program, when my story went up, there, splashed right in the middle of the article was… a big Lockheed Martin F-35 advert. So no matter what the status is of the F-35 program, we all know the marketing effort is going full speed.

Funny things aside, the program still has a lot to figure out. And while you expect bold statements from a piece of advert copy, when it comes from others that are not advertising people, then one has to wonder what is happening. For example: The head of the F-35 JSF Program Office General Davis was interviewed some time back for an Australian news piece.[1] Here unfortunately the news media source must have thought he represented the U.S. Air Force. He does not. Michael Moseley is the General in charge of the USAF as an F-35 customer. General Davis is only the current military program manager for the jet. All program managers want their program to come in for the big win. General Davis is no different. And even in the face of the fallout from the recent U.S. Government Accounting Office (GAO) report that stated that the program will go over cost and possibly slip on schedule, Davis stated that a Pentagon report showed that the exact opposite was true and that he disagreed with the GAO assessment. "We do not agree with that estimate, there is no basis for that estimate, and we do not support it," Davis said.

What makes this troubling is that the fuzzy math that states the F-35 program is running near or under costs comes into problems when one adds things like the alternate engine program and increased SDD (System Development and Demonstration) costs. Most of the claims of “savings” are predicted in the long term. Where General Davis may have some explaining to do comes as the result of a JSF team meeting in April where it was discussed that a year may be added to the SDD phase. A “final decision” on this won’t come until autumn 2008. If it happens, costs will go up.

Part of the other problem with predicting cost of the program is that officials parrot the production plan. When one looks at where all the partners are now, the reality is different than the plan. Again, even if there were no technical problems, the F-35 can only stay on cost if there are a sizable amount of orders. Looking at the current status of the team members tells a different story.

USAF-Can now only afford 48 aircraft per year when full rate production starts in 2014. A buck doesn’t buy what it used to and the USAF is in financial hot water trying to recapitalize all of its airframes and not just fighters.

U.S. Navy-Less orders and… PowerPoint warriors in a problematic ship building era love an Excel spreadsheet friendly aircraft: The Block II Super Hornet.

USMC- At the mercy of U.S. Navy to determine numbers of aircraft.

Australia-States they are committed to the program, however they purchased 24 Super Hornets as part of a hedge against F-35 delays. Sounds in the wilderness hint at 32 more Super Hornets being possible if there are further delays to the F-35 combined with trying to refurb enough old classic F-18 Hornets. It is also possible that the fully planned number for 100 F-35s may be reduced.

Canada- States that their next fighter will be a competitive process. Should they go with the F-35, Canadian production slots have been reduced to 65 from the original 88 stated in public briefings. A gain of 5 considering Lockheed knew for some months now that Canada was quietly committed to 60 in the JSF plan.

Denmark-Competition for the next fighter.

Italy- Moved some orders “to the right”. Israel may pick up some of these.

Netherlands- Competition for the next fighter.

Norway- Competition for the next fighter.

Turkey- So far looks good for 100.

U.K. Probably a reduction in the total number. The current health of the upgrade path of the Tornado and Typhoon are being brought into question. With the MOD going wobbly and cutting at will, what will be the shape of the UK fighter force before F-35 even makes it’s debut?

So from above, right now there is no proof with the current money problems in the U.S., that USAF will ever see 1700+ F-35s. If the plan doesn’t do 1763 for the USAF, if it doesn’t do 2443 for the whole of the U.S. Military, if it doesn’t do the full plan, the price of the aircraft will go up.

What is also of interest is that Lockheed is trying to boost team members to make orders on the plan by claiming a fixed price for the aircraft. This may be interesting since there is still a long way to go in testing and development of the aircraft. Cost and price are two different things. Buyer beware and it comes with a disclaimer: “That the fixed price would only be able to be offered if consortium numbers and schedules are maintained, and that it would likely add additional costs should partner nations start deferring or reducing their buys.”

It gets more of a concern if the Short-Take-Off-and Landing (STOVL) variant doesn’t deliver. Traditionally, Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) isn’t authorized until a platform proves itself, yet some STOVL F-35s have already made it to LRIP without proving if a representative of a fielded combat jet can do all of the demanding flight performance required. The program won’t see an attempt at vertical landing until middle 2009 or later. The Joint Program Office may have just “certified” the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine for STOVL flight, but the full performance envelop through real flying has not be demonstrated.

Just as worrying is software. The definitions of Block I, Block II and Block III software have been remade. In just two years, the Block I aircraft lost its air-to-air capability and its strike capability has been restricted. It is a similar story for Block II and Block III. [2] This will be the biggest chunk of software to make it into a combat aircraft. What will Block I, II and III expectations look like in the coming years?

As for Lockheed, they seem happy. Recently the U.S. government released funds for more production of aircraft. "We're seeing excellent progress on our production line, with 17 preproduction aircraft in assembly flow, the first two production-model F-35s already under way and unprecedented assembly quality across the board," said Dan Crowley, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and F-35 program general manager.

Long-lead funds of $197 million for LRIP 3 were released on May 14 for at least 18 additional F-35s. The LRIP I contract for the first two F-35A production aircraft was finalized and issued in July 2007.

Lockheed said the first F-35A test aircraft has exceeded performance and reliability expectations. The inaugural flight of the first F-35B is on schedule for late spring/early summer.

-End Notes-

source: http://www.f-16.net/news_article2893.html


Long but interesting read.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

Had L-M got it right first time around there wouldn't be any of this going on....


Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

The F-35 was a greater challenge to design than the F-22.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

U.K. Probably a reduction in the total number. The current health of the upgrade path of the Tornado and Typhoon are being brought into question. With the MOD going wobbly and cutting at will, what will be the shape of the UK fighter force before F-35 even makes it’s debut?

It has been cut to the required number, 138 from 150 (ish).


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

Quote: The F-35 was a greater challenge to design than the F-22.

Sorry mate please cut the bull:

F-35 stealth is much LOWER, its not SUPERCRUISING, it's optimised for lower altitudes and Mach.

Appart for the stealth even Taiwan can design that!


Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

I was not talking about its capabilities but about its requirements:
-3 very different aircrafts in one
-good stealth that is easy to maintain
-affordable


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

I was not talking about its capabilities but about its requirements:
-3 very different aircrafts in one
-good stealth that is easy to maintain
-affordable

The F35 is also far more advanced and versatile. The F22 is very niche, but it's good at what it does, though a modified F35 would be nearly as effective and far cheaper.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

imagine if the f-35 program was cancelled and all that money went into acquisition of f-22s and development of a slightly modified 'f-22E' version as well as more tankers and f-18 Block IIIs... we would have the most amazing airforce =\

Quote: The F35 is also far more advanced and versatile. The F22 is very niche, but it's good at what it does, though a modified F35 would be nearly as effective and far cheaper.

Total BULLSH!TS.

The most difficult part of designing an aircraft is always in the top corner of the performance envelop............ F-35 doesn't even go there .

Before posting you should first get sober.




Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

I will explain why:
The good designers with the epic skills design the F-22 because it is crucial and hard.
The n00bZ get the F-35 to practice on. We recognize that it sucks but buy it anyway to get their confidence up so they can design the F-22 of 2040.

The quote system is foolproof TEXT

One is an extremly expensive and performant Air Supermacy fighter.

The other a relatively cheap Strike Fighter.

= Cost AND Performances...


Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

basicly the F-35 is cheaper becouse they already took a lot of know how from the F-22 program withthem to the JSF one.

Would the F-22 not have been developed, the R&D cost of the F-35 wuld be much higher

> SeQuBu <
> basicly the F-35 is cheaper becouse they already took a lot of know how from the <
> F-22 program withthem to the JSF one. <
> Would the F-22 not have been developed, the R&D cost of the F-35 wuld be <
> much higher <

That is exactly it. One function of the F-35 program is to take the F-22's technology and find a way to do similar performance at a fraction of the cost.
On the F-22A panel openings have an extremely high tolerances which make production difficult. One way the F-35 over the problem is to use embedded wires with a voltage applied on the edge, this prevents any RF energy that enters the gap between the panel and the fuselage from being amplified and reflected backed to its source. Other areas where the F-22A uses some special RAM, the F-35 uses a composite material with a metallic mesh also with an applied voltage to get similar results. The external materials on the F-35 cost one-tenth to maintain compared to the F-22A.
Most of the avionics are designed to last the life of the F-35 without any maintenance! The sensor fusion capabilities of the F-35 are the equal of the F-22A. Anything detected by the sensors or on the data link is projected on the HMDS. So a SAM launched from below the F-35 and while the pilot can not see the SAM approaching visually, on his HMDS the symbology will show where the missile is approaching from. The missile is approaching from below, so the pilot looking at the floor will see the symbol for the approaching SAM! An enemy plane is approaching the F-35 from th six o'clock position, the fuselage blocks the pilots view but when he turns around to check 'his six' the HMDS will show the symbol of where the enemy plane is.

Quote: basicly the F-35 is cheaper becouse they already took a lot of know how from the F-22 program withthem to the JSF one.

It cheaper because it's NEARLY: Half the weight, HALF the size and HALF the performances.




Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

It cheaper because it's NEARLY: Half the weight, HALF the size and HALF the performances. TEXT

even if the F-35 is half the weight, half te size & half the performance, it cost still less then half the price of the F-22, meaning that you get more figther, newer tecnology, lower lifecycle maintainance & more firepower at less then the same price of the F-22

Now that sounds pretty good to me

One is an extremly expensive and performant Air Supermacy fighter.
The other a relatively cheap Strike Fighter.
= Cost AND Performances...

One is a fighter with limited strike capabilties, one is a versatile multirole fighter/striker.

It cheaper because it's NEARLY: Half the weight, HALF the size and HALF the performances.

-> More airframes being ordered
-> Builds on what was learned with the F22 program


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

Doesn't look like they learnt that much, they still have the same problem than with the F-18 with fin aerodynamic battering which requiers structural strengthening wit hte extra weight going with it.

And if they really had learn there woudln't have been any need for so many REDESIGN and weight saving measures....

Youre posting your ususal manure.


Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me;
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 481 occasions were Typhoons were cannibalised last year in the RAF to keep the rest of the fleet running... Jwcook <<<<<<<<<

i was gonna point that out. If it was a scaled down f-22 it would be able to do the air superiority role, but thats not what its designated for. and like thunder said, there wouldn't be that many issues with it as of current if its being built on things learned from the f-22 program.

Due, the F-35 is still a new plane meaning: difrent structure, difrent function, difrent aero dynamics.

What did they learn from the F-22:
-use of materials in the construction
-Improved Stealth (believe it or not Thunder, but stealth tends to play against aerodynamic
-easyer to mantain
-improved sensors & electronics
.
.
.


The so claimed aerodynamic flaws are propably well known by now & accepted into the project for difrent reasons.
Maybe becouse if fixed it would compromise more the stealthenes of the plane
Maybe becouse fixing it is much more expensive (on the overall) then reinforcing it (there is actualy a mathematic/economic form to calculate if something needs redesign or not)
or maybe it is just on purpose.

you see, the optimum is not always the best.

I've heard many times, always from the same forumer, that the F-35 is aerodamically flawed. Guess what, people also said that from the Raptor and boy were they wrong!


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

everything that the human beeing has put in the air so far is aerodynamicly screwed, mainly becouse the aerodynamic conditions change regarding altitude & speed.

The less aerodynamicly screwed thing that is circling the skies today are still the brids

With flawed I meant: "it flies like a brick".


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

With flawed I meant: "it flies like a brick".

Well those guys over at ATS forums would have you believe that F35's aerodynamics don't matter, because it has built in anti-gravity technology


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

Nah, that's the PAK-FA.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

One can recall the happenings during the occupation of France when the french resistance cleverly used doves to communicate with Britian and the Germans answered answered with the bright idea of drilling/training some falks to hunt these doves when transporting the quite important messages to the brits

ofcourse most communication where done by other means like radio

The Federal Reserve Scam!

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