some tanks british and indain have groved barrels
i was told my kronic that they can still fire missiles
(fin stabilised shells)
my question is how
the shell or missile fired from a groved barrel wil be spinning its asss off so how can they fire a fin stabilise/manovering missile from it?
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ya man i am sure but here is the trick part
if the first stage is spinning the second stage thats connected to it i also spinning
now the second stage
consisit if warhead comouter sesnors and fins which manover the who thing
now if thats spinning how do the fins work when the whole projectile is spinning
this hte projectile is not spinning so how to stop a projectiled fired from a grove barrel from sinning ?
and that too in a very short distance
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the fins do not engage untill they have left the rifling of the barrel, they operate with springs that deploy on a lower chamber pressure, Much like the stabilizing fins of any other anti tank weapon.
Tha sabot dart of a kinetic energy weapon likewise in the barrel has fins, however these fins are covered up with an insert in the shell allowing it to spin.
now as for India and whos using rifled.
The British used to be believers in Rifled shells, Their latest tank gun is a german smoothbore, the russians last rifled gun was the 100mm of ww2 vintage which served as the t-44.54,55 series.
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The groves are what is normally referred to as "rifling". They impart the spin into shells fired. Missiles fired do not fit tight enough to be affected by the rifling but, missiles have fins to stablize their flight.
> ComradeAbdullah <
> Tha sabot dart of a kinetic energy weapon likewise in the barrel has fins, however <
> these fins are covered up with an insert in the shell allowing it to spin. <
The sabot (French for shoe) used in the sabot round does impart some spin but, most of the spin and stablizing comes from the fins which causes more spin.
Whether a gun barrel is rifled or not is totally dependent on the requirements for the gun. Their is 'NO' one aspect of a design that makes it better than other philosophies on barrel designs.
Russia tends to use the their tanks as direct fire to support infantry. They also tend to have shorter lifespan because Russian philosophy stress' war will be very intense and attrition (or loss rate) will be high, therefore a tank won't last long in combat. So why design a barrel to last a long time?
The West tends to use tanks as anti-tank weapons first. Its philosophy is that tanks will last a long time but, equally important is that in peace time, tanks and their sub systems (barrels, etc.) must be economical in expense. Therefore barrels are designed to provide a lot more ware.
Just different design choices, that's all.
Adrian
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the fins do not engage untill they have left the rifling of the barrel, they operate with springs that deploy on a lower chamber pressure, Much like the stabilizing fins of any other anti tank weapon.
Tha sabot dart of a kinetic energy weapon likewise in the barrel has fins, however these fins are covered up with an insert in the shell allowing it to spin.
now as for India and whos using rifled.
The British used to be believers in Rifled shells, Their latest tank gun is a german smoothbore, the russians last rifled gun was the 100mm of ww2 vintage which served as the t-44.54,55 series
bro i know the fins come out once it has left the barel
just like the fins come out of an RPG or like in a babur cruise missile
the sabot dart rounds are not missiles and they do have fins and it also rotates
i have hurd some where that british and indains have rifeled tank guns and they can also fire missiles from it
now missiles move left or rite or up or down by using there MOVABLE FINS
to manover a missiles through fins the missiles should not be spinning taht why they install a gyroscope in it so there is no un wanted pitch roll or yaww
so if a misile is fired from a barrel which is grove its spinning
now how the hell is a missiles fired from a groved barrel
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The 120 mm L30A1 rifled gun fire both HESH and APFSDS CHARM-3 it is a Sabout round not a missle, the fins are like thouse on a dart they do not move.
120 mm L/55 smoothbore tank gun is about to be fitted, there was talk of a 140mm smoothbore.
The M551 Sheridan using M81E1 152 mm fitrd both missles and shells
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The 120 mm L30A1 rifled gun fire both HESH and APFSDS CHARM-3 it is a Sabout round not a missle, the fins are like thouse on a dart they do not move.
120 mm L/55 smoothbore tank gun is about to be fitted, there was talk of a 140mm smoothbore.
i know sabot fins do not move
but once kronicfool told me that there arjun and british tanks with rifeled barrels can fire missiles
now i was very confused about this
may be he was just making things up
The M551 Sheridan using M81E1 152 mm fitrd both missles and shells
does the M551 has a rifeled or smooth bore guns?
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if it has a rifeled barrel how the hell does it fires a missile?
yte missile would be spinning so its manovering fins are useless
or when it fires the missile the first step is to stop the misslie from spinning
how is that achived ?
the fins that come out turn in the opposite direction to the spin and with the help of gyro it levels its flight and stops the spin??????????????????????????
now if thats the case how much distance has the missile all ready travelled before it stops spinning
??????????????
any one?
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The British and Indians currently do not use rifled (grooved) guns.
Brits are now using the 120mm rheinmetal smooth
and Indians use a 125mmm but the arjun is a 120mm rifled (grooved) this will undoubtably negate any significant gains in long range vs the 125mm
We might not be seen among those who pray and we might not fast with those who fast, but we believe in God because we are in dire need of Him. Our burden is onerous, our road is rough and our aim is high. We have reached this faith; we did not start with it. We arrived at it through sufferings and hardships and did not receive it by inheritance nor was it handed down to us conventionally. For this reason it is invaluable for us, being the fruit of our efforts.
)In memory of the Arab Prophet, 1 -April, 1943(
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I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this.
Inside the rifled barrel, it is spinning, and the fins are not deployed.
Once outside the barrel, the fins are deployed. A short time after the fins are deployed, the spinning stops. Fins are anti-spin. I don't know how to explain it to you, you'd have to use 3-D imaging in your mind to see it.
Fins go against the spinning action, because their surfaces are normal, not parallel, to the spin.
Like what ComradeAbdullah said, for the Sabot rounds that come with fins, the fins are covered by the sabot when inside the barrels, hence not going against the "wind". But once outside, the sabots are discarded, and the fins start to reduce the spin until it is not spinning.
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Think of it a a big Crossbow bolt, or arrow if you will. Once fired the round spins, it leaves the barrel and the shoe falles away and the fins are deplyoed. They very quickly stop the rotation, but they do not effect the trajectary in any way.
Simply get a dart board and some gards and have a play. You can easly put some spin on a dart and it will fly true.
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where as Heat is best fired from a rifled (grooved)
We might not be seen among those who pray and we might not fast with those who fast, but we believe in God because we are in dire need of Him. Our burden is onerous, our road is rough and our aim is high. We have reached this faith; we did not start with it. We arrived at it through sufferings and hardships and did not receive it by inheritance nor was it handed down to us conventionally. For this reason it is invaluable for us, being the fruit of our efforts.
)In memory of the Arab Prophet, 1 -April, 1943(
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I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this.
Inside the rifled barrel, it is spinning, and the fins are not deployed.
Once outside the barrel, the fins are deployed. A short time after the fins are deployed, the spinning stops. Fins are anti-spin. I don't know how to explain it to you, you'd have to use 3-D imaging in your mind to see it.
Fins go against the spinning action, because their surfaces are normal, not parallel, to the spin.
Like what ComradeAbdullah said, for the Sabot rounds that come with fins, the fins are covered by the sabot when inside the barrels, hence not going against the "wind". But once outside, the sabots are discarded, and the fins start to reduce the spin until it is not spinning.
i understand wat you have just said but your not getting me
A missile FIRED from a GROVED BARRELS
now fins deply once the missile leaves the barrel
its spinning but the fins which are anti spin stop the spinning in a little while
at that speed a little while will be wat 5 secnds min
in five seconds the missile has travells wat a few km like 3 4
now a missile will only be able to manover if the spinning is zero cause when spinning with fins the missile can not manover
by the time spinning stops and the missile has all ready crossed hte target so now you understand me
@abdullah
bro thats a sabbot dart its not a misile i am talking about a missile
this thing once fired cant change its tragectory on its self it wil follow a path and that can not be change if the target moves it wil miss it but the missile wil correct its tragectory and hit the target evem if its moving
and for tat missiles need fins to manover but fins dont work when the missile is spinning
now you get me
Think of it a a big Crossbow bolt, or arrow if you will. Once fired the round spins, it leaves the barrel and the shoe falles away and the fins are deplyoed. They very quickly stop the rotation, but they do not effect the trajectary in any way.
Simply get a dart board and some gards and have a play. You can easly put some spin on a dart and it will fly true
yes bro i understand that a fins do not effect the tragectory just reduces or stops the spin
but we aint talking about a dart we are talking about a missile its does not work when its ina spin
if its spinning it can not cahnge its path in the desired tragectory with the help of its fins since its moving
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Most missiles are spun, I thought to even out any kind of force that is pushing it in one direction. When they launch it from a tube, or rail say the spun is achieved by directing some of the energy from the rocket. Now, if they are firing it from a grooved barrel it would probably be spinning much faster than nescessary, so they might direct the same thing that gives it a spin when launching stationary to now be working against the spin from the barrel to slow it down now. this doesn't happen immediately, so you are probably out of luck if the target is within a few hundred meters.
I don't know for sure, but this is just my guess.
This message has been edited by 7keys on Jun 6, 2008 7:16 PM
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now as for what you are talking about the rifling is for a HEAT ROUND. to spin the round for greater accuracy as heat does not need velocity to work.
The anti tank anti hellicopter missiles out there operate on the Heat principal however the ROCKET or Missile itself carries its own propellant which is bled off, exactly the opposite of a round.
is it spun ? yes does it effect the accuracy of the missile/rocket, NO. as the Missile has a lower velocity than both Sabot and Heat
The velocities I am talking about I believe were from the 105mm rifled gun
sabot = 1,450 FPS (feet per second) Heat 850 FPS and Missile around 80 fps
Missiles are infinitely slower than sabots, and heat rounds, If you hold a heat round in your hand at the same level as the gun and fire the gun at the same time as you drop the round, they will both hit target or ground at the same time.
on the Missile there will be little guidance fins, or rockets which can fire to correct its posistion relative to where it was launched from.
here is a great example from the anti tank dragon missile (see the grooves, these are guidance rockets)
Here is the israeli Lahat fired from a 120mm gun, it uses fins. and is laser not wire guided
We might not be seen among those who pray and we might not fast with those who fast, but we believe in God because we are in dire need of Him. Our burden is onerous, our road is rough and our aim is high. We have reached this faith; we did not start with it. We arrived at it through sufferings and hardships and did not receive it by inheritance nor was it handed down to us conventionally. For this reason it is invaluable for us, being the fruit of our efforts.
)In memory of the Arab Prophet, 1 -April, 1943(
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guy i know in HEAT its not the speed of the projectile that screws a target but the explosive
but finn missiles DO NOT SPIN
if they are spinning the fins cant wrk properly
how the well is the micocntroller supose to know which fin to turn to turn the missile in desired direction
since the missile is spinnig the fins are usesless in manovering
and if sin was ok then wats the need of a gyrpscope
fined missiles DO NOT SPIN
\
ASO WE ARE BACK TO THE PROBLEM HOW TO FIRE A MISILE FROM A GROVED BARRELS
ONCE FIRED HOW TO STOP IT FROM SPINNING BEFORE IT OVER SHOOTS ITS TARGET
IT SHOULD STOP SPINNING WITH IN LETS SAY 500 METERS CAUSE THERE IS no point in its stop spinning once it has covered 5km
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@commander
thats misile with small groves the pic you posted
you mean those are rocket boosters small one that correct the tragectory of a missile in flight?
and is this missile spinning in flight or is it stable?
explain this too me
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this is fired from a smooth bore tube
seems perfectely stable notive the rear fins see how level they are
they are suppose to stay level like that through out the flight
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Rifled gun barrels can and do fire sabot rounds. The US Army's M-60 (105mm used M68 rifled gun) and M-551 Sheridan (which fired the 152mm round plus Shillelagh Missile) and, the USMC's Ontos tank all had rifled barrels. The M-1 Abrams is the US's first tank that had a smooth bore.
As far as the sabot is concerned, I did not state that the fins deploy, I guess what should have written is that the fins 'take effect' after the sabot departs from the kinetic penetrator.
The photo of the Stryker launching the TOW Missile is not a rifled apparatus because it is not a gun but rather a tube launcher, just like all other launchers of the TOW Missile.
Adrian
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Sorry I misunderstood your point.
Now I see what you're concerned about.
The point about missiles being very fast, so in the short time it takes to stop spinning, it would have travelled a great distance.
But then, I'd think that's precisely what works in its favor, in that a high speed actually makes it more forceful at stopping the spin. It's something like this: at high speed, the air streams that surround the fins will act like a grip on the fins, meaning the fins would have more force acting on them when the missile tries to spin. Hence the result is that it doesn't need like 5 seconds to stop spinning.
I may be wrong, I'm no expert on this matter.
Will anybody who knows aerodynamics tell us what it's like please?
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It's really not that big a deal to fire a 'missile' from a rifled tube. It's basically the same as firing APFSDS from a rifled gun. In most rounds there is a narrow driving band, and it is only this band that actually engages the rifling - the rest of the round doesn't touch the sides so to speak. On a round you don't want to spin, this driving band is free spinning, ie it is not attached to the round and hence does not make the round spin. There of course may be some slight spinning but nothing that will affect the round in flight. As soon as the round pops out the end of the barrel the fins will deploy and stabilise the round in flight.
It's not rocket surgery.
Just use googlepedia if you are interested. A quote - Freely rotating bands can be used to reduce the amount of spin imparted to the round as is preferable for HEAT warheads or fin stabilised projectiles.
The photo of the Stryker launching the TOW Missile is not a rifled apparatus because it is not a gun but rather a tube launcher, just like all other launchers of the TOW Missile.
yes man and read wat i said below it i said its a missile launched form a TUBE not a groved barrel i didnt mention a groved barrel
@sane guy
ya man makes sense but even at that speed five second is a lot of time the missile must have traveled at least like 2 km or so
@sarge
man you make a lot of sense
i love you
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The missle does not fit the rifled barrel that tightly as it uses it onboard fuel for prepoltion not the force of expanding gases from an explosion behind it as in a shell.
The M551 MGM-51 Shillelagh missle does not spin as it leaves the barrel.
This message has been edited by phifflon on Jun 8, 2008 2:50 PM
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ya man this thing was making me crasy i thought scientist have figured out a way of manovering a missile through its fins even though its spinning at high speed but this was making no sensne
that wat driving bands that rotate with the groves but the missile inside is stationary makes a lot of sesne
also the missile not fitting the barrel compleately also makes a lot of sense
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(see the grooves, these are guidance rockets)
