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Nuclear-armed Iran changes world

July 7 2008 at 7:36 PM
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  (Login MikePapa1)
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Nuclear-armed Iran changes world
Greg Sheridan, Foreign editor | July 03, 2008

THERE is, I would guess, somewhere between a 30 and 40 per cent chance that the Bush administration will bomb Iran's nuclear facilities before the end of the year.

This is, naturally, a personal judgment. It is based on two weeks of intense conversations I have had with American national security figures.

Washington, all the capitals of Europe and Canberra are united in their determination to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

The consequences of a nuclear-armed Iran are obvious. Its leaders are theologically motivated and believe Israel should be wiped off the map. It is the chief global sponsor of terrorism through groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas. Middle East experts believe a nuclear-armed Iran would soon be followed by Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, and perhaps others as well.

Nobody should underestimate what this means.

A senior US Defence Department official told me: "We know how nukes worked in a two-player situation (the US and Russia), or even on the Indian subcontinent. But we don't know how it works in a multiplayer situation. All those countries with nascent nuclear programs: they'd all be very vulnerable to pre-emption.

"The risk of catastrophic misuse rises dramatically. I don't think the international community has addressed it with sufficient urgency."

The same official describes a nuclear-armed Iran as "a very immediate existential threat to Israel, because of the short distances involved and its inability to withstand even one nuclear strike".

The argument against striking Iranian nuclear facilities is twofold. The first is that the US still has significant diplomatic and financial measures it can take to dissuade the Iranians. It should exhaust those first.

Second, the cost would be too great, both in terms of Iranian retaliation and in terms of the US's standing in the Muslim world and more broadly.

One of the things the US can still do against Iran is revealed by Seymour Hersh in this week's The New Yorker. Hersh alleges that the top secret intelligence committee heads of Congress have authorised $400million for covert operations in Iran. This program is designed to gather information about Iran's nuclear facilities and support opposition, including violence, to Iran's Government and military.

It is sensible to take what Hersh writes with a grain of salt, but he does have a track record of securing leaks from the CIA. In this case, two separate national security insiders have confirmed to me that the US has a substantial covert operations effort in Iran.

This is all background to the question: What are the chances that George W. Bush will strike Iran, and how do we calculate those chances?

For a start, the Bush administration clearly houses a range of divergent views on this question.

People who know Vice-President Dick Cheney well believe he wants to strike Iran, that he has made a sober judgment that time is running out.

Hersh reports, and others confirmed to me, that Defence Secretary Robert Gates is strongly opposed. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is also opposed.

Some analysts believe that in the first Bush administration Cheney won all such arguments, whereas in the second administration Rice is dominant. They take this to mean Bush won't strike.

I don't think it's that simple. It is true that Bush has ceded an enormous amount of national security power to Rice. However, the Bush administration is better seen as having two personalities, the psychology of which rose out of Bush's peculiar historical circumstances.

Bush understands that he is unpopular across the world and, as a result to some extent, so is the US. Therefore, on every issue where it's possible, from Africa to North Korea, he presents a kindly, moderate, multilateral face. And that face is Rice.

However, Bush also knows that history will judge him on the outcome in Iraq. So he does absolutely everything he can to win in Iraq. And this means mostly following Cheney's advice. Remember that for all of Rice's undoubted sway, she opposed the troop surge in Iraq, as did Gates. The surge went ahead anyway, and was successful.

So at this moment, in the second half of 2008, does the Rice side of Bush or the Cheney side win the argument on Iran?

I think anyone who pronounces dogmatically on that question doesn't know what they're talking about. For a start, if the Iranians are caught doing something stupid, the calculations change dramatically.

Here are two more factors of central importance. Figures right across the Bush administration routinely describe a nuclear-armed Iran as an existential threat to Israel. Existential here means a serious threat to Israel's existence. Another national security figure tells me that if Israel really does regard a nuclear Iran as as existential threat, it would have no alternative but to strike.

Instead it may be that Israel regards a nuclear Iran as an extremely serious threat, says this national security figure.

If that is the case, Israeli spokesmen use the term existential threat in order to make other people take the situation more seriously.

By using the term existential threat, the Bush administration at the very least is itself legitimising the Israeli strike option.

Finally, no one in the Bush administration or anywhere else doubts that the Iranians are pursuing nuclear weapons. A senior Bush administration official (not a hawk) tells me: "It's my judgment that they (the Iranians) are trying to pursue that capability. People will argue whether that means weaponisation or one step before weaponisation, where they could easily move to weaponisation."

A senior US Defence official tells me: "They are continuing their efforts to enrich uranium. When they produce fissile material, they will be about six to 12 months away (from building a weapon)."

What, then, of the US National Intelligence Estimate released last December that said Iran had ceased its weaponisation efforts? The same NIE report also concluded that Iran was continuing work on the technically more challenging efforts of enriching uranium and producing long-range missiles.

But the NIE report with its benign finding concerning weaponisation is now held in more or less open contempt throughout the Bush administration. A senior US Defence official tells me: "I've never seen an NIE where the director of central intelligence (CIA) has disowned it. The Defence Secretary has said they (the Iranians) are pursuing nuclear weapons, and the director of national intelligence says he'd write it differently now."

The inherent unpredictability of these matters makes analysis difficult. A year ago, who would have thought that the US would now be doing better in Iraq, and considerably worse in Afghanistan?

A nuclear-armed Iran changes the world for all of us. It is the most important issue on the international agenda today.

I don't know for sure whether the Bush administration will strike Iran's nuclear facilities. Neither, I think, does anybody else. But on all the evidence I can access, I would put the chances about 30 to 40 per cent.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0%2C25197%2C23959567-7583%2C00.html




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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fariborz
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Re: Nuclear-armed Iran changes world

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July 7 2008, 7:56 PM 

Ah yet again the nasty matter of consequences completely forgotten. Suppose for sake of argument all the CRAAAAP that Bushy and Papa’s buddies in Isreal have been saying without showing any fooking evidence is true. Suppose you attack the nuclear facilities right now, before the bomb is made. Ok, can you destroy ALL of Iran, probably so. Can you kill 70 million people and still claim you are all nice and clean beautiful, definitely not. Will you kill 70 million, the answer is NOOOO. Is Iran large enough to be able to hide clandestine enrichment facilities, given that it has its own Uranium and now its own centrifuge, yes it does. If you hit it and donrt kill everyone, will it double its effort and actually try to make a bomb, yes it will. If you hit it and it makes a bomb, will it retaliate? OH YES IT WILL . In that case will it shove one up the butt of however attacked it and detonate the said shoved bomb? OH YES IT WILL.  Will it have the right given that the other side attacked first, OH YES IT WILL . Will it make matters worse leading to more and more retaliation, OH YES IT WILL .

 

Ok, back to square one


 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 8:04 PM 

Wow. You really are excited. Iran doesn't want to trade nukes with anyone. It will rapidly find the short end of that stick.

That being said, I hope that reason prevails and military action is avoided. To paraphrase a popular saying about veterans: All will give some, some will give all. No one will benefit and everyone will lose. Let's hope rationality prevails.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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fariborz
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July 7 2008, 8:10 PM 

Ah dear dear, Frst things first

Has YOUR FOOKING prtesident or yOUR FOOKING buddies shown any evidence that Iran is persuing nuclear weapons, just YES OR NO ? If Yes, when, and what. . If NO , then how long does it take YOU to start god forbid disbelive YOUR (not mine), beloved leader?

 

2: Any fooking country that has been attacked has the fooking right to retaliate . Again if that is not to YOUR liking or your buddies, well tough. If Iran is attacked, IT WILL pursue a bomb. If the attack in nuclear IT WILL RETLIATE , again tough shyt. Live with it. USA should learn that instead of going around throwing its weight

around like a drunken fighter, other fooing people on the fooking planet have a fooking right too. Bfore you fire back, WHAT FOOKING EVIDENCE HAS YOUR (not mine) president shown ?

 


 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 8:35 PM 

Ah dear dear, Frst things first

I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Has YOUR FOOKING prtesident or yOUR FOOKING buddies shown any evidence that Iran is persuing nuclear weapons, just YES OR NO ?

My President has not, no. I’m not sure to whom you are referring with “yOUR FOOKING buddies,” so I can’t say definitively that they have not, but my guess is also, no.

If Yes, when, and what. . If NO , then how long does it take YOU to start god forbid disbelive YOUR (not mine), beloved leader?

I don’t recall claiming I believed President Bush. What I did was post an article written in an Australian newspaper.


2: Any fooking country that has been attacked has the fooking right to retaliate .

I couldn’t agree more.

Again if that is not to YOUR liking or your buddies, well tough.

Having agreed with you, this seems superfulous.

If Iran is attacked, IT WILL pursue a bomb.

Which it may well be doing now, anyway.

If the attack in nuclear IT WILL RETLIATE , again tough shyt.

I know of no responsible person who has even suggested the use of nuclear weapons except in response to a WMD attack.

Live with it. USA should learn that instead of going around throwing its weight
around like a drunken fighter, other fooing people on the fooking planet have a fooking right too.


My only suggestion was that Iran’s bladder was a bit on the small size for the type of pissing contest they are talking about participating in.

Bfore you fire back, WHAT FOOKING EVIDENCE HAS YOUR (not mine) president shown ?

You asked that earlier and I answered it. The answer has not changed. I’m fascinated by the overly emotional response. If Iran has no weapons program, great, they need but to show that. Then the US would have no possible excuse to fight Iran.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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fariborz
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July 7 2008, 8:50 PM 

>> If Iran is attacked, IT WILL pursue a bomb.

Which it may well be doing now, anyway.<<

 

 

Yes and I may be an alien from Mars, alas suspision wont be enough for launching an attack.

 

 

In your original post you did not address any point I raised, seems you are in one of your lawyer moods, so be it, I will repeat them in the following manner:

1: Will any attack aim to destroy all Iran and all Iranians (Yes/No)?

2:If some people are left will Iran peruse a nuclear bomb (Yes/no)?

3:Will it have the means in terms of geographic size and resources to let it create the bomb (Yes/No)?

4:In the even of 2-3 being Yes, will it have the right to retaliate (Yes/No?)

5: In the vent that 2-4 were all yes and the original attack was nuclear, will it retaliate with a nuclear attack (Yes/No)?

6:In the event that 2-5 are Yes, will it lead to further war, which in all probability be nuclear (Yes/No)?

7:In the event that 2-6 were yes, will it make matters worse (Yes/No)?

 

If all answers from 2-7 are yes then my original point is right, back to square one, military action against Iran is not feasible.

 

If the attack aims to destroy all Iran and all Iranians then I am afraid that is not feasible either .

 



    
This message has been edited by fariborz_57 on Jul 7, 2008 9:10 PM


 
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pillow biter
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July 7 2008, 9:23 PM 

Question:

Does Iran have the right to pursue its own right to nuclear weapons?


 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 9:42 PM 

Yes and I may be an alien from Mars, alas suspision wont be enough for launching an attack.

I’m satisfied with your terrestrial origins, however, suspicion may not be a sufficient basis to launch and attack, but clearly it could be enough for doing so.

In your original post you did not address any point I raised, seems you are in one of your lawyer moods, so be it, I will repeat them in the following manner:

Now, Fariborz, I’ve always answered your questions in a direct and straightforward manner. Your suggestion to the contrary is a tad disingenuous.

1: Will any attack aim to destroy all Iran and all Iranians (Yes/No)?

I cannot imagine an attack with either purpose.

2:If some people are left will Iran peruse a nuclear bomb (Yes/no)?

Well, I suppose that would depend upon who is left, but in all probability, yes.

3:Will it have the means in terms of geographic size and resources to let it create the bomb (Yes/No)?

Probably, yes.

4:In the even of 2-3 being Yes, will it have the right to retaliate (Yes/No?)

I’ve answered this once but I’ll do so again, yes, of course.

5: In the vent that 2-4 were all yes and the original attack was nuclear, will it retaliate with a nuclear attack (Yes/No)?

I’ve answered this as well. I can imagine no circumstances in which an attack by the US or even Israel against Iran would involve nuclear weapons. Ifn the event that it did, Iran would be justified, in my mind, to retaliate in kind.

6:In the event that 2-5 are Yes, will it lead to further war, which in all probability be nuclear (Yes/No)?

Yes.

7:In the event that 2-6 were yes, will it make matters worse (Yes/No)?

Yes, Iran would, for all intents and purposes cease to exist.



If all answers from 2-7 are yes then my original point is right, back to square one, military action against Iran is not feasible.

An interesting syllogistic construction, Fariborz. Since there is, again, in my mind, no chance that Iran will be attacked with nuclear weapons, your entire logical construction falls. Would an attack on Iran be ill advised? Yes, in my view it would. That is markedly different than whether or not its feasible. Clearly a military attack on Iran is feasible, if the US is willing to accept the consequences. I hope that it is not.

If the attack aims to destroy all Iran and all Iranians then I am afraid that is not feasible either .

That would be more problematic because to destroy Iran and Iranians there would have to far more collateral damage that would make that unacceptable to any civilized nation. I see no likelihood that the US would ever undertake such a course.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 9:43 PM 

Empire, to answer your question under its current treaty obligations, the answer is no.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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fariborz
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Re: Nuclear-armed Iran changes world

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July 7 2008, 9:48 PM 

@EmpireStrikesBack

 

>>Does Iran have the right to pursue its own right to nuclear weapons?

 

I don’t think there is any such right for any country to pursue a nuclear weapon. At the moment close to 20 countries (I am going from memory here), have the CAPABILITY to make a bomb; if any of them create one then they will have to live with the consequences. The last 3 that openly created them have gotten away with it.  The point from pressures put on Iran seems to be that Iran does NOT have the right to obtain the CAPABILITY and that just won’t wash with Iranians or their government.

If they have the capability, then a cursory look at the map in terms of forces arrayed along its borders and listening to attack rhetoric from abroad, then I am sure they will consider it.

However, this bull crap from all over the place regarding Iranian government being a bunch of mad dogs and launching an unprovoked attack is simply that, bull crap. Again the proof of it is simple, if Iran creates a bomb and attacks any country unprovoked, there will be massive retaliation. Let’s assume for sake of argument that the government in Iran is morally disgusting enough to want to do that, but the land and the country itself will not be desirable enough for people like that to live in after the retaliation. Where do you think they will go? A yacht parked on South of France surrounded with a bevy of red hairs? I don’t think so. Therefore it is not in their PERSONAL (sod the people, let’s just look at it from their supposed selfish point), interest to attack  


 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 9:54 PM 

Generally speaking, Fariborz, I agree with your last post. Why are we arguing?




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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fariborz
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July 7 2008, 9:57 PM 

LOL

I am not sure myself


 
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fariborz
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July 7 2008, 10:01 PM 

>>Fariborz. Since there is, again, in my mind, no chance that Iran will be attacked with nuclear weapons, your entire logical construction falls.

 

Ah but there is another argument, if attacked in any significant way, they will leave NPT on the grounds that there were no evidence. The consequences will be they will pursue the bomb after that and again nothing is gained by the attacking side, we are back to a fixed sequence.  The trouble is all nuclear weapons are simply a Pandora’s box and the fooking box is already wide open. In the next 50 years I believe huge number of countries will have the capability to create the weapon. This is a real impasse, no one will win, until everyone disarms and no country threatens others with annihilation or change of government or using force. That includes BOTH Iran and USA


 
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DocMartyn
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Game theory and WMD

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July 7 2008, 10:03 PM 

Nuclear weapons in the hands of Israels enemies is an extistancial threat.
The Israelis have set up a trid of systems to destroy any nation that attempts to fire WMD at it.
Now look at game theory, is Iran safer with nuclear tipped missiles or not?
Well, when they are building them, they are going to be under sanctions and under threat of military action.
When they have built them, their whole StoS missile systems become a drag to them. If they ever launch a missile, it will be assumed to be nuclear tipped and aimed at an Israeli/US target.
After one launch, Israeli may order a counter strike, before the missile is know to contain WMD or not.
If Iran makes nuclear weapons, they will be boycotted by both the EU, the US, the US's allies in SEA and other groups of nations; probably including Arab ones.

Will nuclear weapons make Iran safer? I think not.

 
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July 7 2008, 10:18 PM 

Ah but there is another argument, if attacked in any significant way, they will leave NPT on the grounds that there were no evidence.

I think they’ll leave the NPT on the grounds that it is necessary for their self defense.

The consequences will be they will pursue the bomb after that and again nothing is gained by the attacking side, we are back to a fixed sequence.

OK, I agree, but, if they pursuing one anyway, a big if, but not outside the realm of reality, what would the US lose by delaying that?

The trouble is all nuclear weapons are simply a Pandora’s box and the fooking box is already wide open.

I agree.

In the next 50 years I believe huge number of countries will have the capability to create the weapon.

I agree, again.

This is a real impasse, no one will win, until everyone disarms and no country threatens others with annihilation or change of government or using force. That includes BOTH Iran and USA

Again, we agree.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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pillow biter
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July 7 2008, 10:22 PM 

The hypocracy is out of this world.

The jewz (refering to Zionist jew) have over stayed their welcome. Earthlings should clean house and get rid of this allien entity.

A zionist free world equal a peaceful world


____________________________________________

"Disclaimer: Please add a hint of sarcasm while reading any thing I post"



http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm


 
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(Login MikePapa1)
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July 7 2008, 10:24 PM 

Just another example of why I love you, Ali, My Friend.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

 
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