You are talking about 70-90% of all army's fire-power. A quick stonk and scoot will always bugger up the enemy.
With new multi propose shell advances can be stopped. Also there cheaper then an Aircraft and the crew easer to train.
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allied forces in afghanistan increasingly use that
and particularly your netherlander countrymen have fought new applications
A Netherlander Howitzer 2000 waits on the ramp for loading onto a C-17 Globemaster III at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, Sept. 6. The C-17 crew flew the 60-ton tank to Afghanistan. (U.S. Air Force photo/Master Sgt. John E. Lasky)
Dutch panzer howitzers head to Afghanistan via Ramstein
RAMSTEIN AIR BASE, Germany A U.S. Air Force crew member assigned to 4th Airlift Squadron, McChord Air Force Base, Wash., guides a Dutch Panzer Howitzer 2000 onto a C-17 Globemaster III aircraft here Sept. 6, 2006. Three of the 60-ton tanks were transported to Afghanistan in support of the International Security Assistance Forces. (Department of Defense photo by Air Force Senior Master Sgt. Robert Prather)
Release Date: Sep 12, 2006
By Jaime L. Wood
U.S. European Command Public Affairs
RAMSTEIN AIR BASE, Germany U.S. European Command service members participated in assisting with the transportation of three Dutch panzer howitzers to Afghanistan in support of NATO's International Security Assistance Forces mission there. The howitzers are 60-ton tracked self-propelled field artillery canons.
"The Netherlands Ministry of Defense requested U.S. strategic airlift to support their deployment of the panzer howitzers," said Air Force Master Sgt. James Ricks, NATO and coalition branch superintendent, EUCOM logistics and security assistance directorate.
This is the first time in history that the giant vehicle which was never meant to be transported in aircraft has moved via U.S. military airlift, leading to additional preparation before the howitzers could be moved. "The Netherlands Panzer was not air certified for movement on U.S. strategic airlift by the Air Force Material Command and required certification for air worthiness through a validation process," said Ricks.
The certification procedure involved many Dutch, NATO and U.S. representatives. Key personnel in the certification process were representatives from Air Force Material Command, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, who coordinated with German and Dutch engineers to provide technical data to determine what modifications would be required to meet air worthiness criteria.
To meet airlift certification requirements, additional tie-downs, used to restrain the panzer howitzers during flight, had to be installed on each vehicle. "After searching, we found a company that made clevis designed for offshore drilling rigs," said Ricks. "The technical data was reviewed and deemed airworthy and capable of handling the G-force that would be applied during flight operations." The tie-down points were welded on each howitzer by the original German manufacturer.
Ricks said the NATO and coalition branch, attached to the EUCOM deployment and distribution operations center, was responsible for supervision and coordination of the whole effort.
The entire process of moving the panzer howitzers from certification to take-off took approximately three months and was completely a multi-unit, multi-national effort. "The team had to work closely with the Germans, Dutch and U.S. counterparts," Ricks said. "The 16th Air Force A-4 Deployment Section, Ramstein, served as the liaison between The Netherlands, Germany and 723rd Air Mobility Squadron [Ramstein Air Base] for the movement of the howitzers to Afghanistan."
All three howitzers arrived safely in Afghanistan by Sept. 7, 2006, and are currently being used by NATO forces in the Global War on Terror.
they exist for pounding savages. We used WW2 era guns in Chechnya and they worked fine. Shells kept in reserve for 50 years still did plenty of damage.
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all your assumptions are based on unstoppable air force. egyptian artillery was doing fine till isarel got help. lets don't forget SAMs are not the only enemy of air force now, there is also EW stuffs.
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As long as you moove around the artillery, planes aren't going to be able hit it. And you can deliver WAY more firepower with artillery than with planes.
.
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And air crafts coming in deep to strike at artilleries are pretty tasty targets for mobile SAMs. Kind of bad deal to lose a bunch of aircrafts or divert them from other duties to try to hit a battery of guns. They can be well-defended. Besides, how many countries in the world do you think can have enough ground-attack aircrafts available to support ground forces at all times? I doubt even USAF can do that most of the time. Consistent and reliable fire support is what artilleries deliver-if you have enough of them anyway.
Swiss Army Knives...up to a dozen tools, and the only thing you learn to use is the bottle and can opener.
It's like me, only prettier.
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Artillery is the fist of the Army in ww2 it was responsible for 60% of all casualties. That hasn't changed, a proximity fused 155mm shell will injure and kill a huge number of soldiers not being in full cover or full body armor.
Artillery just don't seem important as many movies don't show their effect.
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Artillery will always be important till end of time.
But more interesting is if Rocket artillery (MLRS) will slowly displaced shell artillery.
IMO answer is No. Because shell is always still more cost effective. But MLRS will be more effective and cheaper and will be a big player in any major wars.
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Most Defences Forces in the world don't have nearly enough aircraft or production facilities to manufacture new aircraft quickly as replacements when a full fledge war erupts. Once the initial expensive use of aircraft's weapons are used you suddenly face a dilemma. Spend 10X as much on making new missiles and bombs for the planes or allocate that money elsewhere.
Most nations would use aircraft in a support role, precision strikes or dominating the skies. Artillery will always be the most cost effective, consistent heavy fire support for infantrymen and armour.
Only the USAF in conjunction with the USN has the numbers, budget and ability to pull of a shock and awe style bombing campaign in today's world as well as most likely dominating the skies so completely artillery support looks useless. We'll have to wait and see how they deal with a more organised and dedicated SAM teams and better equipped air force.
Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."
"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
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Maybe normal arttileries are a bit out of date but howitzers with the increasing range are favorites of all armies today. Low weight howitzers can be carry by helicopters to mountainous areas where other heavy stuff can't reach, self propelled howitzers can surprize enemy, Towed ones with up to 60km range can make devastate effect with continous fire.
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
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Given the accuracy of modern artillery rounds (GPS guided), and the consistency you can lay down fire with them, and as long as they are cheaper than calling in an air-strike (which drops bombs worth thousands of dollars at the risk of losing a plane worth millions), arty will always have it's place on the battlefield.
Artillery also enjoys a level of mobility as well, and as long as they are properly defended, they will continue to be a very effective tool at a commanders disposal.
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The greatest advantage of artillery and also of tanks is that they are holding ground and are in front of the enemy round the clock and are not effected from weather conditions and therefero are much quicker to response to enemy activities.
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4rth generation artillery are indeed a cheap alternative for overly expensive arial pombarment..
been precise and with a range of several tenths of km can have their use in modern combat.
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aside from the Americans and Brits basically nobody is using GPS guided artillery rounds in any decent numbers. Plenty of NATO armies have ZERO GPS guided artillery shells.
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No, artillery is not outdated at all. The towed artillery fields of PLA that you showed in the pictures are, but not artillery as such.
A Pzh-2000 battery with OtoMelara GPS guided 155mm Vulcano rounds with a range in excess of 140km are letal precision weapons very far from being outdated.
"Memento Audere Semper"
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"aside from the Americans and Brits basically nobody is using GPS guided artillery rounds in any decent numbers. Plenty of NATO armies have ZERO GPS guided artillery shells. "
I think you will see the cost per GPS guided round as production increases, and I suspect that the basic legal framework for license production of Excalibur rounds has been sorted out already for most NATO member states (in case large numbers are needed quickly).
Actually I am becoming quite amused by how many bells and whistles one can stuff into a humble artillery round (GPS or laser guided, base bleed or RAP, etc.).
"But MLRS will be more effective and cheaper and will be a big player in any major wars."
MLRS is expensive compared to shell based artillery and has a larger logistics tail. It is, however, hard beat for counter battery fire as it can outrange any shell based artillery. It is also hard to beat for saturating a small but critical area of the battlefield (i.e. a breakthrough point) almost instantaneously, giving the opposition almost no time to take cover. All in all they both have their uses...as I suspect something like "Rods from God" will have it's uses in the future as well.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw
This message has been edited by coalde on Aug 14, 2009 1:10 AM
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LOL. man, its "my balls are bigger than yours" game again. lets face it fella, they're all good "balls"; guaranteed to knock up any wayward arse no matter how big or small they are.
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[aside from the Americans and Brits basically nobody is using GPS guided artillery rounds in any decent numbers. Plenty of NATO armies have ZERO GPS guided artillery shells.]
Canada has been using the excalibur GPS guided rounds quite frequently in Afghanistan with our M777's.
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"Caesar uses GPS.
No score for this post August 15 2009, 6:00 PM
Fact...
Unless you are referring to the fact that the Caeser vehicle uses GPS navigation, neither Bofors or Raytheon has announced anything on their websites regarding France and Excalibur (go search...I did). So if France is using a GPS guided munition for it's 155mm tubes one of the following has occurred;
1) France is violating international IP agreements it is party too
2) They were given samples to test, but have not made an official decision
I suppose another couple possibilities would be...
3) Raytheon and Bofors legal departments are full of idiots who forgot to patent the concept of mating a GPS guidance system (capable of taking 100s of Gs) to an artillery shell
4) Raytheon and Bofors marketing departments are full of idiots, who forgot to have a press release ready for an ~$80M sale (1000 rounds...I can't see the French buying less than that) to the ~3rd largest military in world
One final possibility springs to mind...
5) You are mistaking your opinions for facts (yet again!)
Each WAFFer can select what he (or she) believes is the most likely...
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw
This message has been edited by coalde on Aug 15, 2009 8:05 PM
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The so called " Turkish Fatih Howitzer " is entirely S.Korean, only the name "Faitih" is Turk, you don't have ANY core technology knowledge there LOOOOOOOOOOOL
You think you assemble parts of F-35 then it means you are able to build F-35 by your own?
LOOOOL You are only able to buy the components, you stupid fool.
Turko military industry is too backward to have a say on WAFF main, but your inferior complex makes you "imagine" you are some military "power"
This message has been edited by HBN2025 on Aug 15, 2009 9:43 PM
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I find the chest thumping in this thread to be quite laughable especially since today NOBODY is building more tubes than the Chinese and they are building some of the finest SPG's on the planet based on the 155mm version of the MSTA turret on a Chinese domestic chasis the PLZ-55. You Turks build in 10 years what the Chinese do in 1.
Of course the finest new gun in development is our Koalition-SV with a projected in service dates of 2012. Just look how it dwarfs the old 2s3 in the first picture! 16 rounds a minute continuous nonstop fire.
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I am done with you, serious get a fu.cking clue before bragging about your "own" stuff.
Btw this is the Chinese MBT tank expert talking about Turkish military industry and all the Korean help to Turkey, the article says Turkey in most of military projects only has 5% of the military technology of the foreign origin weapons systems which are produced in Turkey.
Face the reality don't make yourself a fool in MILITARY forum.
Defense still can have lot of stuff to play denial or air and land. SAMs and artilleries are EXCELLENT for such roles.
Unless of course, you're talking about invading a tiny insignificant military power, where something like artillery doesn't matter at all because they'll just carpet-bomb you if things don't work. Then you're ****ed anyway.
Swiss Army Knives...up to a dozen tools, and the only thing you learn to use is the bottle and can opener.
It's like me, only prettier.
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Bro, what happen to you? I remember you as an decent guy, not as an forum flamer.. I´ve seen that other Chines forumers become anti-Turkish but I´ve never thougt that you would become one of them..
Anyway, thanks for a great thred!
This message has been edited by SuperOsse on Aug 15, 2009 11:47 PM
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The only threat from North is their artilleries facing Seoul.
But anyone with a brain knows South will destroy the entire major North military bases in a few days, because North's air space will soon be dominated by South.
The only thing North could do is to destroy half of Seoul, but then what? The war will still be finished in few days.
That's my point of the thread.
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Osmanlitorunu brother, yes I was always pro-Turkey but you know after the riot in Xinjiang some Turks members just keep attacking Chinese for no reason.
I really don't want to attack Turks on WAFF but some of them just don't know when to stop.
If you check this thread, again it's Turks who started the flame.
But I hope this silly flame stuff will be over very soon
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If the Norths have air defense system worth a damn to deny air dominance and a decent artillery force (not just big, but qualitatively comparable) they'd be a lot more threat. Also remember that there are not a lot of countries that could call North Korean military 'small'.
Swiss Army Knives...up to a dozen tools, and the only thing you learn to use is the bottle and can opener.
It's like me, only prettier.
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NK's military is BIG but too backward, not worth a real fighting in the sense of REAL WAR.
But indeed you can hardly occupy this country, they will keep fighting man to man that's the tough part but that's not real WAR.
Back to the Topic then again majority of their artillery fields will quickly be destroyed, the rest will be left with almost no commanding centers so basically chickens without heads.
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Thanks for the kind words, and they really make good sense.
It's true majority of both Turks and Chinese waffers don't take part in the flames, I didn't take part in either, I even posted a Thread in G/T calling for our two peoples not to get into flames, until one day some Turks waffers even started to attack me without a reason (only reason is I am in the Middle Kingdom Group ), that's why I counter-attacked back.
But well you are right, those flames are silly, thanks for your words I think it's right time to stop.
And still I am in fact still pro-Turkey
Cheers mate
This message has been edited by HBN2025 on Aug 16, 2009 12:39 AM
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Actually the towed howitzer has already been exported to Pakistan.
The Firtina(Korean k9 licensed)national contribution is 97%.
You can read here what Raytheon has to say about aselsan fcs as they are jointly marketing the k9 with Samsung to Australia.
http://www.raytheon.com.au/Default.aspx?x=506
With 2 barrell the recoil will be very high, not to mention the vehicle is very top heavy as well.
For sure the accuracy will be in big question (not that Russian cares about accuracy) but there is strong chance if both barrel are firing at very close timeperiod to each other that the whole thing can turn turtled.
Truth is, you wouldnt see this design in West, simply because it is ridiculous.
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Current Topic - Artilleries still useful in modern wars?
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