http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1328/42/380562.htm

Military Suffering Casualties in War Games
12 August 2009
By Paul Goble / Special to The Moscow Times

The number of non-combat losses of the armed forces, a figure six to nine times greater than that claimed by Moscow, reflects the problems many commanders have in interacting with their counterparts from other countries during international military maneuvers.

Last year, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said his forces had suffered 471 non-combat deaths, Ruslan Gorevoi reports in the current issue of Versiya, but Veronika Marchenko, the head of the Mothers Right Foundation, said the actual figure is much higher, closer to 2,500 to 3,000.

The difference between official and unofficial figures, Gorevoi says, is not simply about intentional underreporting but rather because the Defense Ministry does not count those who die from injuries after they have been demobilized or those who die in the course of joint military exercises with the armies of other countries.

Both those figures are classified, just as they were in Soviet times. Gorevois article focuses on the second of these categories, and he reports that military experts say Russian forces are losing approximately 150 to 200 men every year.

That figure, he continues, is approximately the same as the one Soviet forces suffered 20 years ago, a lack of progress Gorevoi suggests is the result of Russian armed forces now taking part in up to eight international exercises each year, whereas in Soviet times, such exercises occurred much more rarely one or two times annually.

According to Gorevoi, the deaths Russian forces are suffering during joint exercises with the armies of other countries are the result of a variety of factors. Some are simply the product of sloppy work, the failure of Russian technicians to ensure that equipment is packed carefully so that it will work as intended.

Others are the product of secretiveness, either by the Russian forces or by those with whom they are cooperating. On the one hand, Gorevoi says, sometimes Russian commanders do not install the latest technology, such as flotation devices for tanks, and soldiers die when they are ordered to drive them across rivers.

And on the other, both Russian and foreign armies often are working with maps that are either outdated or distorted to prevent foreigners from knowing where things are located. During joint maneuvers last year with Mongolia, Gorevoi says, map errors caused approximately 100 soldiers from both armies to be fired upon in error.

The journalist notes that similar cartographic errors were responsible for deaths and injuries during Russian exercises with the Kazakh and Armenian militaries. Most recently, during this summers Peace Mission 2009 maneuvers with China, inaccurate maps led to approximately 15 Russian deaths and 60 Chinese ones.

But technical issues such as equipment and maps are not the only problems in these exercises that lead to uncounted non-combat deaths, Gorevoi continues. Others involve failures to communicate accurately what each side is supposed to do or even to understand what the games are intended to look like.

One such disaster took place recently when Kyrgyz commanders suddenly decided to change the nature of the game and revert to what they had done in an earlier exercise with Russian forces. Because they did not make clear their intention, 120 Russian soldiers came under fire and approximately 15 were killed.

Retired Col. Gen. Leonid Ivashov, the president of the Moscow Academy of Geopolitical Problems and a frequent critic of the Russian defense minister, offered the following explanation for why Russian officers now find it so difficult to participate in joint exercises without suffering significant losses.

In Soviet times, he pointed out, such problems mostly did not arise: There were a number of countries in the Warsaw Pact, but they had common standards of armament and common approaches to command and to strategic and tactical planning.

Something like that, Ivashov said, is being reestablished in the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, but the time needed for the restoration will take more than year. And until then, Russian commanders will have to cope with many more differences than they were used to and Russian soldiers are likely to be the victims.

Dont train with chicoms or stanis.

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This also shows you how much freer the Russian press is than the Chinese. This would never make any papers in China.

Quite embarassing for both sides, especially the Chinese.

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It shows that "cooperation" with 3rd world sh1tholes in military exercises is a dangerous and stupid.

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It is very sad for families of those people that died but then again neither Chinese nor Russian governments would care.

Im actually happy for the death of more Chinamans

kinda a self ownage military exercise

I am not. They havent done anything to me or someone I care about. Just poor guys that are doing their job and getting killed.

RIP



When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

" I am not. They havent done anything to me or someone I care about. Just poor guys that are doing their job and getting killed. "

There's plenty of them where they came from.. 1.3 billion to be exact

China also has the highest death rate in road accidents

No collaborating sources, no news when the inidents "supposedly" took place, just hot air. I can't believe anyone with half a brain believed this BS.

The exercise ground was flat and pre-determined, just a dog and pony show, anyone who believe you can get almost 4% casualty rate out of that is delusional.

peace mission 2009 is not a secret drill. So many Officers from so many countries were observers there. No one mentioned such big accident.

<<Im actually happy for the death of more Chinamans >>
why because 9 out of 10 people in the world doesnt even know turkey exists?

this is quite unacceptable. they're using their own maps in their own territory. what could happen if one day china decided to invade india? they might even find their artillery firing towards pakistan.

Its very unlike a ruski whore to make up news........


The excuse the Moscow times gives is "bad maps" is as fake as a paris hilton tan.


Peace mission 2009 was conducted at the Taonan Tactical Training Base in northeast China's Jilin Province, with troops stationed at that base. Are they suppose to have "bad maps" for their own base?

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"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

Only an unoffical russian news source has made this claim backed up with NO evidence whatsoever, Not to mention the fact that Moscowtimes is anything but reliable.

Its not even CNN reliable as the American regulation requires them to have at least one ounce of truth.


Wouldn't be surprised if they heard it off a friend of a friend of theirs or made it up themselves sounds just as resonable

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

why because 9 out of 10 people in the world doesnt even know turkey exists?

________________________________

you are wrong. Millions are put on tables on thanksgiging day.

Peace mission 2009 was conducted at the Taonan Tactical Training Base in northeast China's Jilin Province, with troops stationed at that base. Are they suppose to have "bad maps" for their own base?
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You are very correct. The drill area was not randomly selected. that's one of China's training bases. PLA has used that base for years. How comes the story of "wrong map"? The death of "60" and "15" sounds like fake too.

seriously, can't believe brainless people fall for shiit like this...lol

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Russin army training LMAO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaaP7bQglcU




__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

well, guess filin can't contain the urge to feel superior just because he is a russian refugee living in a first-world country....lol


reality check time....lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

List by the United Nations (average for the 2005-2010 period)
Rank Country/territory Life expectancy at birth (years)
Overall Male Female
World average 67.2 65.0 69.5
1 Japan 82.6 79.0 86.1
2 Hong Kong 82.2 79.4 85.1
3 Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3
4 Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2
5 Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6
6 Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2
7 Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0
8 Israel 80.7 78.5 82.8
9 Macau 80.7 78.5 82.8
.
.
.
.
82 People's Republic of China 73.0 71.3 74.8
.
.
.
.
136 Pakistan 65.5 65.2 65.8
137 Russia 65.5 59.0 72.6
.
.
139 India 64.7 63.2 66.4
140 Laos 64.4 63.0 65.8
141 Mauritania 64.2 62.4 66.0
142 Bangladesh 64.1 63.2 65.0
143 Nepal 63.8 63.2 64.2
144 Solomon Islands 63.6 62.7 64.5
145 Turkmenistan 63.2 59.0 67.5
146 Senegal 63.1 61.0 65.1
147 Yemen 62.7 61.1 64.3
148 Myanmar 62.1 59.0 65.3
149 Haiti 60.9 59.1 62.8
150 East Timor (10% below world average) 60.8 60.0 61.7
151 Ghana 60.0 59.6 60.5
152 Cambodia 59.7 57.3 61.9
153 Iraq 59.5 57.8 61.5
154 Gambia 59.4 58.6 60.3
155 Madagascar 59.4 57.7 61.3
156 Sudan 58.6 57.1 60.1
157 Togo 58.4 56.7 60.1
158 Eritrea 58.0 55.6 60.3
159 Papua New Guinea 57.2 54.6 60.4
160 Niger 56.9 57.8 56.0
161 Gabon 56.7 56.4 57.1
162 Benin 56.7 55.6 57.8
163 Guinea 56.0 54.4 57.6
164 Republic of the Congo 55.3 54.0 56.6
165 Djibouti 54.8 53.6 56.0
166 Mali 54.5 52.1 56.6
167 Kenya (20% below world average) 54.1 53.0 55.2
168 Ethiopia 52.9 51.7 54.3
169 Namibia 52.9 52.5 53.1
170 Tanzania 52.5 51.4 53.6
171 Burkina Faso 52.3 50.7 53.8
172 Equatorial Guinea 51.6 50.4 52.8
173 Uganda 51.5 50.8 52.2
174 Botswana 50.7 50.5 50.7
175 Chad 50.6 49.3 52.0
176 Cameroon 50.4 50.0 50.8
177 Burundi 49.6 48.1 51.0
178 South Africa 49.3 48.8 49.7
179 Côte d'Ivoire 48.3 47.5 49.3
180 Malawi 48.3 48.1 48.4
181 Somalia 48.2 46.9 49.4
182 Nigeria (30% below world average) 46.9 46.4 47.3
183 Democratic Republic of the Congo 46.5 45.2 47.7
184 Guinea-Bissau 46.4 44.9 47.9
185 Rwanda 46.2 44.6 47.8
186 Liberia 45.7 44.8 46.6
187 Central African Republic 44.7 43.3 46.1
188 Afghanistan 43.8 43.9 43.8
189 Zimbabwe 43.5 44.1 42.6
191 Lesotho 42.6 42.9 42.3
192 Sierra Leone 42.6 41.0 44.1
193 Zambia 42.4 42.1 42.5
194 Mozambique 42.1 41.7 42.4
195 Swaziland (40% below world average) 39.6 39.8 39.4


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to ensure that equipment is packed carefully so that it will work as intended.

Sounds like Parachutes not opening ...

rip for chinese russian soldiers

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FAAKHER E CHAAMB

Theres always some truth in these reportings. Denying it won't solve the problem, I hope the Chinese or Russians would learn from this mistake. Soldiers killed during an exercise is perhaps one of the worst things that can happen in the armed forces. In my opinion not even one should die from it.