Wow,

Even with non-combative military exercises the ruski whores manage to kill themselves



""""""""""""""Military Suffering Casualties in War Games
12 August 2009By Paul Goble / Special to The Moscow Times
About this blog
Window on Eurasia covers current events in Russia and the nations of the former Soviet Union, with a focus on issues of ethnicity and religion. The issues covered are often not those written about on the front pages of newspapers. Instead, the articles in the Windows series focus on those issues that either have not been much discussed or provide an approach to stories that have been. Frequent topics include civil rights, radicalism, Russian Islam, the Russian Orthodox Church, and events in the North Caucasus, among others.

Author Paul Goble is a longtime specialist on ethnic and religious questions in Eurasia. Most recently, he was director of research and publications at the Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy. He has served in various capacities in the U.S. State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency and the International Broadcasting Bureau as well as at the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He writes frequently on ethnic and religious issues and has edited five volumes on ethnicity and religion in the former Soviet space.
The number of non-combat losses of the armed forces, a figure six to nine times greater than that claimed by Moscow, reflects the problems many commanders have in interacting with their counterparts from other countries during international military maneuvers.

Last year, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said his forces had suffered 471 non-combat deaths, Ruslan Gorevoi reports in the current issue of Versiya, but Veronika Marchenko, the head of the Mothers Right Foundation, said the actual figure is much higher, closer to 2,500 to 3,000.

The difference between official and unofficial figures, Gorevoi says, is not simply about intentional underreporting but rather because the Defense Ministry does not count those who die from injuries after they have been demobilized or those who die in the course of joint military exercises with the armies of other countries.

Both those figures are classified, just as they were in Soviet times. Gorevois article focuses on the second of these categories, and he reports that military experts say Russian forces are losing approximately 150 to 200 men every year.

That figure, he continues, is approximately the same as the one Soviet forces suffered 20 years ago, a lack of progress Gorevoi suggests is the result of Russian armed forces now taking part in up to eight international exercises each year, whereas in Soviet times, such exercises occurred much more rarely one or two times annually.

According to Gorevoi, the deaths Russian forces are suffering during joint exercises with the armies of other countries are the result of a variety of factors. Some are simply the product of sloppy work, the failure of Russian technicians to ensure that equipment is packed carefully so that it will work as intended.

Others are the product of secretiveness, either by the Russian forces or by those with whom they are cooperating. On the one hand, Gorevoi says, sometimes Russian commanders do not install the latest technology, such as flotation devices for tanks, and soldiers die when they are ordered to drive them across rivers."""""""""""""

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1328/42/380562.htm


__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

The ruskis even tries to drag China into the article


"""""""""""Most recently, during this summers Peace Mission 2009 maneuvers with China, inaccurate maps led to approximately 15 Russian deaths and 60 Chinese ones.
"""""""""



Thats right, they claim the Chinese troops stationed at the Taonan Tactical Training Base had bad maps to their own base. LOL


Trying to divert attention as expected from an article from moscow times

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

Bad/out dated maps can happen even on your own base. I almost drove off a cliff one night doing blackout driving. Our map showed a bridge ahead of us, but it was pitch black out and in the middle of the bush, and the only lights we had on our vehicles were our blackout lights. I stopped just in time to notice that the supposed bridge that was ahead of us was no longer there.

It was a close call.

But in saying that Taonan is one of Chinas showcase training bases, well manintained and well funded. Purpose built to simulate Red vs Blue conflicts. They claim out of 1,300 Chinese troops participating, 60 managed to kill themselves because of "bad" maps on a new modern faciility


Jilin is not very mountainious either so its not like they are at risk driving off cliffs like you unfortunately are Uncontrolled







__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

This actually reminds me of filins use of "statistics" previously.


Lets look at filins the village idiot making up numbers from his arse about the Sino-Soviet war



First he claims that
""""""""""""""For every fallen Soviet, 15 chicoms paid a very heavy price. """""""""""


Then one post after he claims its 12 for 1 LOL
""""Chicoms got annihilated on that border, a dozen or so chicoms for every Soviet.""""


LMAO

This ruski whore cant even keep his story straight.



The offical ruski whore (not filins wet dream) claims that the Chinese suffered 800 casulties on a insland which couldn't hold more than 800 troops while they suffer 152 caslties which is a 5:1 ratio LOL . This is the same russians who claim to have shot down 600+ F-86in the korean war which is almost the total number of F-86s which ever served in Korea. In comparison American documents ONLY show 78 fighters lost. LOL Those ruski whores like to inflate figures a lot LOL. 10 ruskis would claim the same kill LOL



I wonder where filin is pulling his numbers from. Not to mention the soviets claiming that 800 soldiers were killed on a isaldn who coulnd't support 800 troops LMAO







Maybe a Russian thing to lie about numbers.

One of Stalin's quotes shows ruski mentality LOL
"Quantity has a quality of its own"

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

Our maps are usually updated frequently, and the base itself it well maintained as well. The bridge in question was one built by an Engineer regiment as a final training phase during their qualification course.

Our maps were updated to include the bridge. That bridge was later (a few months) dismantled by that same Engineer regiment, but the updated maps didn't come out in time to include it.

These things happen, regardless of how well maintained a base is. Maps aren't constantly printed every single day to take into account every change the base undertakes. But China could very well be different. I'm speaking from experience in the CF.

However, 60 dead on a training exercise is pretty high. How many soldiers took part in the ex?

lol, do you actually believe the 60 number??? lol....

-------------------------------------------------

There were 1,300 troops from each side that participated so 2,600 soldiers in total.

So Moscow times is claiming that the PLA lost a company of soldiers to "bad" maps on one of Chinas most modern showcase facilities on flat open country. From what I gather, it sounds like it was the first time you attempted to cross the "bridge" but the PLA soldiers would have trained there for more than a year. Some of them also participated in Peace mission 2007





Right now it should only be taken as gospel as the only place to mention this figure is Moscowtimes. Its not like a Russian general or officer came up with these claims or a respected news organisation its MoscowTimes! some obscure website who doesn't even reference the figures they provide

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

I find that 60 figure hard to believe, unless of course Chinas military is completely inept, which I doubt they are.

I have been in the Army since 2002, and have taken part in many large scale exercises consisting of over a thousand soldiers, and never once has anyone died.

A few injuries but no deaths, and certainly not 60.

The article actually suggest more than 60 died. It mentions that 60 died due to poor maps but does not include the 2 JH-7A pilots who crashed as well as other possible miscellaneous causes. Anyway a very poor figure

The natural human reaction is to avoid death or injury and I doubt 60 men paid and trained to serve their country would take life so carelessly. Especially considering the terrain they were training on was not conducive to accidents

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

it sounds like one bad artillery barrage, the figure is believable if painful. A single friendly fire incident in Chechnya once killed something like 250. A brigades worth of artillery can kill 75 people with absolute ease.

It doesnt mean either army was necessarily inept.

LOL......

So first chinawhite post a source to laugh at Russian, then tries to deny his own source when he realise it made chinese look even more dumb.

Score for self ownage.......LOL.

Its not my source, I used irkuts source from his thread titled "Bad maps kill 60 Chinese, 15 Russian soldiers during Peace Mission 2009" and used it to talk about a different tangent.

I was aware of the content and that is the reason why I brought it up

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

@Chinawhite

Don't you think it's time to change your sig? LOL you've had that panda forever.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ irkut

It wasn't a joint arms exercise, they were not practising for conventional warafre whereby they lanuched a "mock" artillery barrage to support advancing infantry. The excercise involved simulated heli drops (without artillery support LOL) as well as manuvering mechanized formations. No where was there open pockets of infantry.


The exercises were conducted over a period of 4 days from the 22nd to the 26th



__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

@ Gamer

""""""""""""Don't you think it's time to change your sig? LOL you've had that panda forever.""""""""

When I find a good picture i'll change it, But using this picture is easy for me to find my post in a thread, especially if it spans a few pages


__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

they did practice combined arms! The Russian side brought brigade level artillery, 36 2s3 guns. They supported Chinese and Russian advancing tank columns. Those T-80's and Type 99's advanced with artillery going ahead of them. Its clear from the videos this was the case. The Chinese side had 30 something howitzers there too. There were at least 60 tubes at the exercise.

@ Irkut

Not a Blitz type combined arms, it was a Anti-terror exercise afterall. As I mentioned in that post, infantry were not part of that artillery barrage so your statement that a company could be "easily" wiped out is already flawed

But thats beside the point, logically speaking there is no sound way that 60 men could have died from the excuse given by Moscow times. Not to mention any evidence or other source apart from them making such a claim

__________________________________________________

"Tasting defeat makes one appreciate the smell of victory" - Chinawhite

"If God gives you lemons, eat those lemons" - Chinawhite

They did exercise with Chinese soldiers calling in Russian artillery and Russian soldiers calling in Chinese.

You dont use T-80 tanks and Type 99's each in battalion level strength for anti-terror exercises. That's nation invading power today. Nobody seriously saw Peace Mission 2009 as an anti-terror exercise. It was the meat of 2 brigades from 2 countries learning to communicate and maneuver together in combined arms. The Chinese even brought SAM's. You need MANPAD's against terrorists now?

With 60 tanks you can invade a dump like Kyrgyzstan or even take a nice chunk out of Mongolia -- these countries have virtually no armies. We only used 150 tanks to invade Georgia and they were better armed than many of the central asian banana republics.

The purpose of the SCO is ultimately standardization between Russia and China. For instance China adopted a 40mm grenade launcher and Russia agreed to abandon the old Soviet 30mm for 40mm too. Now only to convince you Chinese of the superiority of the 152mm round over the 155 NATO....