Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 22 2009, 10:58 AM
The Rafale would be burnt ashes in the sky long before it became a WVR engagement.
"We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists." - Patrick Henry -
"Gun control has cleared the way for seven major genocides since 1915, in which governments gone bad murdered 56,000,000 persons, including millions of children."
- Aaron Zelman of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership -
"That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." - Virginia Bill of Rights -
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 22 2009, 1:31 PM
You do realize Thunder that we don't care about your opinions on a History Channel program about the future, right?
"Korea has not been the only battle ground since the end of the Second World War. Men have fought and died in Malaya, in Greece, in the Philippines, in Algeria and Cuba, and Cyprus and almost continuously on the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. No nuclear weapons have been fired. No massive nuclear retaliation has been considered appropriate. This is another type of war, new in its intensity, ancient in its origin--war by guerrillas, subversives, insurgents, assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat; by infiltration, instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It is a form of warfare uniquely adapted to what has been strangely called 'wars of liberation,' to undermine the efforts of new and poor countries to maintain the freedom that they have finally achieved. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires in those situations where we must counter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a new and wholly different kind of military training."-President Kennedy's Address at Graduation Exercises of the U.S. Military Academy, 1962
------------------------------
"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss - the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year - sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
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"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------
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"OakRidge)
You do realize Thunder that we don't care about your opinions on a History Channel program about the future, right?"
And since WHEN exactly have you received the title of Knight to allow you to say "WE"?
Your opinion is wewlcome in the Legoland forum if you got nothing remotly inelligent to say, get stuffed elswhere than in this topic.
@Northax)
You can't have it both way, either the low RCS and countermeasures situation as decribed by this vid is correct either the whole story is is innacurate.
Since you got no technical explaination for your wet dreams you're welcome to vaccate to Legoland with OakRidge.
@FridayNight00
Yeah i admit this is closing the US fanboyz wetdreams...
But could we get thew whole discution down to technical levels?
I'm not interrested in the p!ssing and flaming contest the usual idiots are bringing 99% of the WAFF debates down to.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 22, 2009 2:53 PM
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 22, 2009 4:34 PM
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:22 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:13 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:13 AM
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 23 2009, 7:59 AM
Pilots being of EQUAL SKILL and NOT held back by certain rules: F-22 beaten by F-15/F-16? F-15/16 without canard OR tvc on them?
Pilots being of EQUAL SKILL and NOT held back by certain rules: F-22 beaten by F-15/F-16, even though the F-22 has a higher Thrust to Weight Ratio AND is more unstable by design for even more maneuverability?
Thunder, you only believe this BS (definitely half truth BS; F-22 was probably outnumbered in WVR by a large margin, and/or the F-22 purposely was set up and restrained from doing certain maneuvers so as to give the F-15/16 pilots some training, etc.) because your emotions want to keep you living in denial of the truth!
Again: You actually think an F-15 (with pilot of equal skill compared to F-22 pilot) with less TWR and not built with unstable design, can beat an F-22 in WVR combat?
Here, folks, is the perfect example of an emotionally blinded person! Thunder! Thanks for showing us how in denial you truly are, once again!
"We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists." - Patrick Henry -
"Gun control has cleared the way for seven major genocides since 1915, in which governments gone bad murdered 56,000,000 persons, including millions of children."
- Aaron Zelman of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership -
"That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." - Virginia Bill of Rights -
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LOL! Bulls by the bucket: The Fanboy's tradmark...
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August 23 2009, 8:46 AM
"Northax)
Pilots being of EQUAL SKILL and NOT held back by certain rules: F-22 beaten by F-15/F-16? F-15/16 without canard OR tvc on them?"
Are you that little AWARE of what you keep writing?
"Northax)
even though the F-22 has a higher Thrust to Weight Ratio AND is more unstable by design for even more maneuverability?"
TWR empty is one thing, LIFT another, anyone knowing about it would tell you TWC isn't giving you a turn rate but that LIFT does.
Here are Rafale and F-22 wingload, not mentioning the limited lift of Canard and instable elevators:
45,70 mē
9.500 kg 207.87 kg/mē
78.04 mē
19,700 kg 252.434 kg/mē
The Raptor have a higher wingload empty.
In a turn the canard effects would remain while the F-22 elevators would have to be pitching UP therefore loosing their lifting effect, they both have sharp LEX.
Now: TWR...
Combat configuration:
50% internal fuel, AA missiles is how it is computed.
Rafale C TWR = 1.214
F-22 TWR --- = 1.26
F-22 is also limited to 9.0g (Structural Load) a Rafale can pull 11.0g.
The F-22 caries all its fuel internaly therefore canot claim the "extra TWR" it is supposed to have in this configuration, at 50% internal it will still be WAY heavier than a F-15.
It will have MORE fuel onboard (So does the Sukois) and the F-15/16 always can drop their tanks at any time, you cant drop the F-22 extra structural weight or dump fuel to get a lower wingloading.
SO: According to bozzos like you; fiting a firecracker up the @ss of an iron will make it pull 9g, in reality it is not so, without LIFT you won't TURN, period.
Instability doesn't necessarly give you MORE maneuvrability overal only a slightly shorter response time in pitch for a starter.
For the rest it only insure that when relaxed it will provide you with the capability to use the aerodynamic characteristics of your aircraft closer to their limits than a stable aircraft IF the design allows for it.
TVC doesn't counts for a higher maneuvrability in most cases, on F-22 it is only used, "kick-in" when the controls aren't effiscient enough. i.e. at high altitude/high speed in rarefied air to reduce trim drag and at very low speed/high AoA (airshows).
The Rafale and Gripen doesn't have this problem, their aerodynamics aren't suffering from the same arrangement drawbacks.
As far as we know before TVC is used automatically on the F-22 its AoA is even more limited than that of the F-16 so it NEEDS it anyway.
Something else; instead of trying to lecture people about TWR/TWC you should start by learning your basics...
Because to TURN you need a high LIFT coeficient first, a LOW wingload second (high structural load AND air density as well) and then TWR only allow you to sustain the resulting turn rate.
Instantaneous turn rate is ALWAYS computed FIRST and without TWR.
As opposed to what you ineducated cartoon character believes, US aircrfafts doesn't beat the laws of physics and aerodynamics but obbey them and still according to these same laws the Rafale have a higher instantaneous turn rate (actually proven to be the highest of all in-service fighters).
"Northax)
Thunder, you only believe this BS (definitely half truth BS; F-22 was probably outnumbered in WVR by a large margin,"
Bull**** and irrelevace are everything that doesn't suit your narrow PoV of a subject you don't comprehend...
"Northax)
and/or the F-22 purposely was set up and restrained from doing certain maneuvers so as to give the F-15/16 pilots some training, etc.) because your emotions want to keep you living in denial of the truth!"
NOW this is total bullsh!ting for one.
You keep having o INVENT "restrictions" where they doesn't exist...
F-22 was NEVER designed with maximum close combat capabilties in mind, the aerodynamics are largely depending on SHAPE and as a matter of FACT that of the F-22 are NOT optimised for aerodynamics requierments but stealth.
NASA/DRYDEN had to sort the design for Loochkeed Martin for the high AoA and they were faced with problems the F-15 never had.
"Northax)
Again: You actually think an F-15 (with pilot of equal skill compared to F-22 pilot) with less TWR and not built with unstable design, can beat an F-22 in WVR combat?"
Not only i believe it but i also KNOW it since they say it themself and NO there is no restriction about F-22 pilots combat mock-ups vs USAF pilots, only on the aircraft performances according to the SAME laws of physics and areodynamics than the rest of them.
"Northax)
Here, folks, is the perfect example of an emotionally blinded person! Thunder! Thanks for showing us how in denial you truly are, once again!"
The day you'll understand whatever about the subject and stop taking your little Disneylandish stories for reality come back and talk about other's blinded and emotional denial states, for the time being they relate to YOU only.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 9:45 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 9:28 AM
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Accoding to this video the Sus are going to be wiped out even before the merge, i know some analysts who desagrees with this and have some very valuable technical points to make...
For example this vid claims the Raptors to be able to get in range before being undetected...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 9:49 AM
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But certainly NOT what this video is making of it and there are arguments which are interesting to sustain about it.
Now, i'll give you a hand with this:
DATE:20/08/09
SOURCE:Flight International
Russia signs $2.5 billion deal for 64 Sukhoi fighters
By Stephen Trimble
Russian government officials during the MAKS air show in Moscow signed a historic order for 64 Sukhoi fighters, raised the possibility of a $470 million cash injection for RSK MiG and sternly warned aerospace executives to not expect further financial bail-outs.
The Russian air force will take delivery of 48 Su-35Ss, 12 Su-27SMs and four Su-30M2s by 2015 under the $2.5 billion order jointly announced on 18 August by Sukhoi and the defence ministry.
The deal marks the most valuable contract ever signed by the air force. It also extends a major change in acquisition policy that started in 2008. Since the post-Cold War period, Russia had ordered no more than six fighters a year, but last year signed a multi-year $1.25 billion contract for 32 Su-34s.
Đ Sukhoi
After Algeria last year rejected deliveries of 34 RSK MiG-29SMTs, the Russian air force also agreed to acquire the sum of the lost order for $533 million. That was the first of two bailouts Russia provided for struggling RSK MiG. The company has since been merged with Sukhoi under the United Aircraft umbrella. Russia also supplied $470 million in cash to RSK MiG last year to keep it solvent. An equivalent sum may be required again this year.
"We will also discuss the possibility - and I want to emphasise this - we will discuss the possibility of adding another Rb15 billion [$470 million] to the capital of RSK MiG," Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on 18 August.
Moscow will also provide $100 million in cash to Sukhoi for "additional capitalisation," Putin says.
In the long term, Sukhoi and RSK MiG also hope to receive order extensions for the Su-35 and MiG-35 beyond 2015 until the fifth-generation PAK-FA fighter is available after 2020.
The PAK-FA "is one of our priorities, work on which must certainly be provided with the necessary priorities", Putin says.
But Putin also delivered a harsh rebuke to Russia's aerospace industry for failing to remain competitive in the international market. United Aircraft is now $3.76 billion in debt, and industry's promises to raise cash by selling non-core assets "have been lost", Putin says.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 23 2009, 9:56 AM
this part right here got me mad "the long term, Sukhoi and RSK MiG also hope to receive order extensions for the Su-35 and MiG-35 beyond 2015 until the fifth-generation PAK-FA fighter is available after 2020"
2020 ? are they serious PAKFA will undergo flight testing 2011 serial production 2015-16.
and you cant expekt posting a french video that only you understand and start debating with people who only got the visual look of it, manny like myself dont speak french therefor this video cant be understood, and every expart of the video your posting we gotta take your word for it, its not like we can comment on it exept what we see the visual like i saw random flankers poppin up out of noware b1`s and raptors vs rafaele, it dose seem pretty retarded thunder dosent it ?
This message has been edited by FridayNight00 on Aug 23, 2009 10:40 AM
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"FridayNight00)
and you cant expekt posting a french video that only you understand and start debating with people who only got the visual look of it",
You keep calling it a French video when it is NOT and then i think i have duely posted the US version so you don't give due attention to this topic...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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"Northax)
Here, folks, is the perfect example of an emotionally blinded person! Thunder! Thanks for showing us how in denial you truly are, once again!"
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 2:31 PM
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I also saw a History Channel documentary in which one Raptor engaged and destroyed 4 Rafales in BVR engagement in one go...
No need for the Raptor folks...F-16 Block 60 would kick the shiit out of any present version of Rafale without AESA easily.. After 2012 ,it will be the Raptor and after 2014 the F-35 will bury RAFALE alive.
The reason why nobody takes this moron serious anywhere is because he posts so much crap and the same Bullshiit for years and years about RAFALE and the alleged capabilities of DASSAULT and French defence industries ,crap that has been fact-corrected in great detail over and over, and yet he is posting the same crap again and again. Trolling without respite is a way of life for this retard.
Sampaix reached a new level of idiocy for which there is no cure.
This message has been edited by leopardus on Aug 23, 2009 3:20 PM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
-----------------
The OLS-35 provides a coverage of +/-90 in azimuth and +60/-15 in elevation with a target acquisition range for non-afterburning aerial targets of 50 km facing up to target's front hemisphere and 90 km facing up to rear hemisphere. The laser rangefinder features a five-meter Circular Error Probable (CEP) and ranges up to 20 km for aerial targets and 30 km for targets on the ground.
-----------------
That's for the SU-35. If you are looking at the SU-27 family, those numbers will be less.
For either system, the SUs are well inside the range of AIM-120Ds or C-7s.
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LeoBarkus. Posting your family album doesn't make you smarter.
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August 23 2009, 6:25 PM
"leopardus)
Sampaix reached a new level of idiocy for which there is no cure".
No cure for knowlege; we already knew that... But the only idiot here is always been proven to be you time and time AGAIN.
Look at you; you came up with nothing but personal attacks and "the guy in ther mirror"s picture after your little toons fairytales have been downed in flame.
As i said the USAF pilots saying they can defeat a F-22 a low speed and its Cobra with Yo-yo maneuvers knows their stuff better than you your own genetic heritage.
I'm sure you still believe this poor guy in the photo is NOT you.
BTW we know F-22 maximum sustained turn rate to be 28*/sec.
In the best case that's 9 g below 400 kt (28.3 deg/s = 400 kt) or stocked on its tail using TVC with NO eneregy left to spare:
So here is a little picture for you to show how even on turn rates a F-22 can be defeated.
Yep, 10 g at 440 kt+, with NO LESS than 9 g SUSTSTAINED during this turn and pick of up to 11.0 g, your super/duper superiority is beaten by a fair margin by a two seater.
For QUICK 9.0 g turn at low altitude during Airshows, it demonstated it can turn a 360* 3 second FASTER than the Raptor best in the SAME conditions.
So boy, the day the US puts a truck that can out-race a Formula One together, come and post please, for the time being seek help, you need it a lot more than most....
@SpudmanWP)
That's pretty lower than i was expecting, an OSF would spot a target this size at 130 km all sector in these conditions and the actual camera allow for ID at 45 km.
What bandwidth are they using?
Anyway i don't think they would fail to spot the hot spot of a missile coming at M 4.0 and its IR signature/trail.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 4:33 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 7:52 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:41 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:36 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:34 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 23, 2009 6:27 PM
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 23 2009, 11:27 PM
I would'nt be surprised at all if the Rafale could score against the F22 in dogfight specially when the F22 embarque then only AIM9X and no AMRAAM.
The Rafy would fire MICAs as soon as the F22 is visible (it's a big plane) with good chance of success at least enought to give the Raptor's pilot some headeach specially on clean sky.
Then even at close range, the F22 pilot should forget some figures like a cobra. The Rafales, instead of gently continue its route may climb straight, make a U turn when the speed has decreased and then fire while regaining speed falling on the Raptor.
About the video, good but could have been better. A hit B1 accelerating to M2 is not credible as well as 100% hit for the AMRAAM.
edit: only way to know: come and have a fight against the Rafale. Why not ? affraid ?
This message has been edited by ultrarep on Aug 23, 2009 11:30 PM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Missile launch detection and ranging
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August 23 2009, 11:40 PM
The operation and usage of IRST is very over-hyped and misunderstood by many people.
By their own admission the OLS-35 cannot use it's laser rangefinder till 20km on airborne targets. Without a range, the fighter cannot plot a firing solution and cannot effectively launch a missile.
Don't forget that the F-22 and F-35 have liquid cooled leading edges and wing components. This will reduce further the detection range via IRST since the leading edges are one of the biggest hot-spots when looking at a fighter coming at you.
Missile launch detection is another often misunderstood technology.
The previous above links (and others) put the launch detection limit at 30km for air-to-air missiles. Once the motor burns out, the missile will not be picked up again till it passes the 5km barrier where the the missile's heated body triggers the sensors.
Long range A2A missiles can be launched well outside this 30km detection range. If the motor burns out before the 30km limit, the target AC will have no warning prior to 5km.
That being said, the History Channel video's above, IMHO, got the sequence wrong. The B-1Rs should have fired first and bugged out and left the F-22s alone to mop up with a full load of AMRAAMs.
btw, Since the B-1Rs will not likely ever exist, two F-35s can carry more AMRAAMSs than one B-1R (28 (+4 after Blk5) AMRAAMs + 4 Aim-9x Blk2 vs 22 AMRAAMs).
One final note, with the advent of JDRADM, the engagement envelope and NEZ opens considerably. If they successfully develop a restartable motor, the endgame tactics that have been taught over the years will go out the window.
Having a tri-mode seeker and a highly agile missile under full power within 5km of you AC will mean death to all but the luckiest of pilots. IMHO of course.
All edits are for spelling corrections unless otherwise noted.
This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 23, 2009 11:43 PM
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 24 2009, 12:01 AM
Eric
The operation and usage of IRST is very over-hyped and misunderstood by many people.
By their own admission the OLS-35 cannot use it's laser rangefinder till 20km on airborne targets. Without a range, the fighter cannot plot a firing solution and cannot effectively launch a missile.
20 Km is a lot in WVR (we are speaking dogfight here) and one can have an estimation of the distance by other means than laser specially when several Rafales are involved.
A precise range is necessary for an efficient flight of the missile. But if your missile is long range, an efficient trajectory is less necessary you can afford to waste more fuel.
Don't forget that the F-22 and F-35 have liquid cooled leading edges and wing components. This will reduce further the detection range via IRST since the leading edges are one of the biggest hot-spots when looking at a fighter coming at you.
that wont prevent it to be visible at non IR frequencies.
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 24 2009, 12:15 AM
My comment of the OLS-35's range was in response to :
--Q: What is the range of Russian IRSTs?
Since the RED's only chance of BVR shots is a good lockup in IRST, the actual short range of Russian IRSTs is a problem. Some have claimed a detection and tracking range of IRSTs to be over 100km, which is obviously false.
Btw, if SUs did not have a range, how can you tell the difference between an approaching target at 50km and a departing target in full AB at 100km? The missile shot you take will be completely different.
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"Don't forget that the F-22 and F-35 have liquid cooled leading edges and wing components".
That doesn't bring their temperature down to the air embiant-20* or so, it doesn't change friction between air particles, it doesn't eliminate engine trakes etc...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 24 2009, 4:32 AM
I did not say it made them invisible, just reduced target detection range and gives the F-22 and F-35 more time to decide the plan of attack and to prosecute the attack while outside the detection range.
The same applies to the other stealth features of the F-22 and F-35.
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First: They work on more than one single bandwidth.
Second: Kinetic heating is only really starting to appear at around M 1.6 or so, speed at which the Raptor is cruising and Maximum designed Mach of F-35.
It only beggins to be a structural problem at Mach 2.0, even so it is theorically in constant increase from 0 speed.
The F-22 will certainly reduce its IR signature at these speeds, but won't be IR invisible, the IR shot you got from airshows are taken at low to medium subsonic.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 4:45 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 24 2009, 4:55 AM
I say again, this in no way makes the F-22 or F-35 invisible to IRST, just reduces the detection range.
A reduced level of heat in the leading edges (or any other part) will affect all IRSTs regardless of the wavelength.
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You dont seem to understand how IR sensors are working these days...
Yes wavelength matters and it matters a lot, they give you a different and much wider perception in the IR spectrum involving atmospheric disturbances when there are two of them.
With only one you end-up with its wavelength limitation to atmospheric conditions, with two you can cross-compare their view of the same area with sensor fusion and increase their respective sensitivity.
The problem is the ambient temperature vs target temperature.
Here you can see the difference in contrast a low subsonic (Airshow).
Military power and subsonic...
Near-IR Camera view.
B-2 at low speed.
At altitudes, temperatures goes down dramatically, below -30c at 15.000 ft if you have a standard atmoshpere at sea level and engine trails start to appear at 10.000, ISO 0.
So imagine, if kinetic heating can create structural problems at M 2.0 you can be sure than even with cooling, leading edge are never going to be at embiant temperature nor will be the air they go through.
Also, the aircraft wake itself will be disturbed with wide differences in temperature.
The best example i can give you is that in transonic this very phenomenon makes the droplets of water around the aircraft becoming visible in the form of vapor.
Compression wakes due to Mach involves automatically changes of velocity AND pressure meaning temperature of the air.
This not only is visible in IR in transonic, in supersonic it leaves extention trais as well as the engine trail which are not eliminated either.
In short you have a LOT of clues as to the presence of an object traveling the air at high speed due to temperature exchanges between different layers of air, simplified; if you don't "see" the aircraft, you see the hole it is punching through the air.
Thinking that cooling the leading edges and some of the wing surface of the aircraft reduces this significantly when the rest of the airframe (the whole of the fuselage skin) is also involed is falling for it.
This system is designed to reduce vulnerability to the previous generation of IR AAM seekers, it won't fool a modern, dual bandwidth IRST or IIR seeker.
And as ultrarep was pointing out, they still are very visible in the non-IR or near-IR bandwidth.
We know that France is developing a new generation of IR AND TV sensors for long range detection, i believe DGA know what they are doing and aren't spending this money for nothing.
BTW. Ranges given for the OSF which was developed with technologies dated from the 90s aren't given for M 2.0 targets...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 6:35 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 5:48 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Do you read a thread completly before you respond?
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August 24 2009, 6:02 AM
Do you think that reduced levels of heat only affect a certain wavelength of IR light? If so, then you are wrong. When a substance heats up, it emmits IR from across a wide band.
Btw, I never said "significantly", either, just "reduced range". Since the USAF has not disclosed the F-22's active IR suppression tech, the specific benefits are unknown.
And why bring visible light and Mach 2 targets into the conversation? To confuse the reader? They were never part of the video clip so why bring it up?
Besides, in the above scenario, the F-22 will want to stay as slow as possible. Why? Simple, to direct the incoming fire from the B-1Rs, asses the damage, and have time to setup the follow-on attacks using it's AMRAAMs & AIM-9Xs before getting with the RED team's detection ranges (either radar or IRST).
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"SpudmanWP)
Do you think that reduced levels of heat only affect a certain wavelength of IR light? If so, then you are wrong. When a substance heats up, it emmits IR from across a wide band".
It does affect them is a different way, reason for the gain when they are used together and this is what Thales for example have been developing for years.
This means a much lower sensitivity to MTO conditions and also a much higher capability of distinguishing between temperatures.
Add this to new generations of long range optics, a few new technologies such as pixel-powered sensors for all spectrums from visible to 3-5mn and 8-12mn bands and you have a system which won't be fooled by cooling at all at long range.
"SpudmanWP)
the specific benefits are unknown".
No they haven't been disclosed but just like aerodynamics they can't beat physics, and since aircrafts are traveling through air they have to obbey to the same rules than the rest and the goal is not to fool IRSTs but IR AAM seekers, mostly not IIR.
There is a HUGE amount of heat to dissipate, not only from the leading edge and airframe surface, also from everything encased inside it that needs colling like avionics baies.
As i was telling you, it fools an old generation IR seeker, not a modern IRST for whish the cooler front fuselage is nearly as visible as the engine exhaust.
Look at the photos posted and you will see for yourself.
"SpudmanWP)
And why bring visible light and Mach 2 targets into the conversation?"
Because it is the passive detection domain and wavelength of IR, Near-IR and non-IR cameras in the case of light (see below) and that M 2.0 is a well known "soft" barrier for structural heating problems (Mirage IV).
This proves one thing, from M 1.6 there are issues with airframe temperatures which makes them more IR visible and at M 2.0 aircrafts have to be designed with specific materials to be able to sustain the speed without structural damages.
So even if cooling is used it certainly isn't going to be enough to reduce the IR signature of the whole airframe enough to fool an IRST.
Here a Rafale Marine traping on CdG, the difference in contrast between the anti-collision bands and the engine exhaust is low and the engine LP compressor blades heat is visible under this angle as well as the zone in fron of them.
This is not shot from a very sofisticated system, just a day/night camera and it already demonstrates my point clearly:
The differences in contrast are mainly due to environemental temperatures and wavelngth.
The smallest hot point is nearly as visible as the hottest one.
For its IR signature to be as small as you imply it would be the F-22 would have to be spot-on in the IRST frontal axis.
Not a very realistic scenario, you are mystaking defensive stealth (IR AAM seekers) for tactical stealth.
"SpudmanWP)
To confuse the reader? They were never part of the video clip so why bring it up?"
Well you are confused already, you don't know OSF or more recent European Optronic developements apparently and also you forget the way temperature travels through air and why.
Compressibilty is also a factor in particular around parts of the airframe where it canot be reduced as easly as around wing profiles and surfaces:
Think of the air traveling through the inlets at subsonic speed even when the aircraft is supersonic.
Why are the compressor blades showing so much in the IR spectrum when they are the coolest parts of the engine?
What will it be like when the aircraft is supersonic?
What happened there?
"SpudmanWP)
Besides, in the above scenario, the F-22 will want to stay as slow as possible. Why? Simple, to direct the incoming fire from the B-1Rs, asses the damage, and have time to setup the follow-on attacks using it's AMRAAMs & AIM-9Xs before getting with the RED team's detection ranges (either radar or IRST)".
Well you are WRONG here.
The ONLY reason why F-22 needs IR cooling is because it is designed for stealth while supercruising at M 1.6 and designed to operate at this speed, thus cumulating the kinetic energy and heat related to this Mach.
The cooling acts in a way so that it would radiate no more IR from the traditional IR seekers-visible hot points than if it was traveling much slower, it doesn't make it imprevious to IRSTs at all.
The TVC is ALSO optimised for supersonic turn rates, to stay stealth it would have to use supercruise and keep its energy as high as possible expecially because the US uses the hotest running engines in the world, the weak point of the F-35 for one thing.
Speed minimises the adversary window of detection just as well as low EM/IR signature, high supercruise have its own drawback though, if this cooling system was ported to F-35 it is still meant for protection not true IR stealth which is doesn't have.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 7:40 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 7:33 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 24 2009, 8:08 AM
1. All your espousing of "next generation optics" has nothing to do with the video as Russia has not claimed any advancement in this area.
2. You are the one ignoring physics when you state that the faster you go the more you heat up but then saying the F-22 "to stay stealth it would have to use supercruise" which contradicts the first part.
3. No matter the seeker, whether AAM or IRST, a lower temperature target will be harder to detect. This is the point of active liquid cooling in the F-22 and F-35. Period. Btw, the heat is dumped into the fuel, then the fuel is burned. Heat gone.
4. You keep misquoting me. I never said that the cooling of the F-22 "make it imprevious to IRSTs". That is the exact OPPOSITE of what I said. What I said was the detection range of an IRST vs the F-22 will be reduced from that of a similar sized aircraft going the same speed.
5. The F-22 is not trying to "Fool" an IRST. I is just harder to detect.
6. Those photos you posted are closeup photos. Try that at 50+kms when the F-22 is just a few pixels and you will understand that a reduction in heat levels will equal a reduced detection range. Just a reduction, not invisibility.
7. You woefully misunderstand "stealth". It is not invisibility, but signature management. All "Stealth" aircraft will eventually be detected if they get close enough to the target. It's all about managing the sources of EW and IR. In the IR band, the F-22 does this by cooing the avionics and hottest parts of the skin and dumping the heat out the back end. Since the F-22 will likely know where the RED team is at, he can point his AC at them, thereby reducing the likelihood of an IRST lock until after the F-22 has launched his missiles. Again, he is NOT INVISIBLE to IRSTs, they just have a harder time finding him.
All edit are for spelling corrections unless otherwise noted.
This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 24, 2009 8:16 AM
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But in this case, its shifts from being informative to fanboyz material for the profit of Lockheed Martin, for thosewho knows their subject it is lacking in realism at many levels.
No ,this is 100% realistic .. RAPTOR is all over RAFALE with her integrated avionics,Stealth feature ..So if RAFALE gets her @aas kicked than its fantasy?? MORON ...
Starting by the F-22 maneuvrability, how is it out-flying a canard-delta "thanks to TVC" when it
can be beaten by a F-15/F-16?
Bullshiittt....Thats your usual contribution to the topic.. Supposition after supposition with no factual support..
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"leopardus)
No ,this is 100% realistic .. RAPTOR is all over RAFALE with her integrated avionics,Stealth feature ..So if RAFALE gets her @aas kicked than its fantasy?? MORON "...
Really?
Reality BOY is as following:
Rafale and F-22 have the SAME generation of systems, core system architecture/ECMs and Rafale have a even newer generation of AESA.
Its AAMs aren't Russian like in the movie and won't MISS.
It is MORE maneuvrable than the Raptor proven time and time AGAIN with higher turn rates and a Cobra is easly defeated by a Yo-yo as the USAF F-15 and F-16 pilots have found for themself.
Oh, I forgot IRST and long range Camera, which makes EM stealth that little less "magic" today and even LESS so tomorow...
SO READ AGAIN TROLL!!!
= But in this case, its shifts from being informative to fanboyz material for the profit of Lockheed Martin, for those who knows their subject it is lacking in realism at many levels.
Boy AGAIN you don't KNOW what thrust vectoring is doing and YOUR usual contribution to ANY topic related to the subject is that of an uninformed, frustrated fanboy who denies reality and think posting crappy comments makes him belong with those who knows about it.
"leopardus)
Starting by the F-22 maneuvrability, how is it out-flying a canard-delta "thanks to TVC" when it
can be beaten by a F-15/F-16?"
MORON!
At lower speed the F-22 have NO energy left using TVC which is used for the Cobra or sideslip maneuvers, flying at this sort of AoA depletes it like hell, the F/A-18 pilots figured it out for themself, they also DO Cobras.
The F-15/16s doing yo-yos to counter these still have plenty, this is not your IQ level, please vaccate to Disneyland forum talk knitting with someone your mental age.
"leopardus)
Bullshiittt....Thats your usual contribution to the topic.. Supposition after supposition with no factual support.."
Sure US pilots makes suppositions expecially F-22 pilots (Paul Metz) talking about how TVC is used, what you troll think is useful from airshow videos and reality in combat are two different things.
= Get a life because an education or a brain are out of your reach.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 11:50 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 24, 2009 11:45 AM
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Rafale and F-22 have the SAME generation of systems, core system architecture/ECMs and Rafale have a even newer generation of AESA.
In your wet dreams you fcuking idiot..Rafale is 4 Gen and Raptor 5,5 ..
Rafale get her asss kicked under any circumstances. Rafale will get a decent AESA probably in 2-3 years.. Rafale is comparable with Typhoon SU-30 and F-16 Block 60..
But hey! keep on dreaming..You are alone in this.
MORON.
Sampaix,the french retard.
the grandpa Sampaix in 1940.
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
um.... NO
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August 25 2009, 7:15 AM
The first fighter to have a DFBW installed was a F-8 testbed.
The first production fighter to have it installed was the F-18 which was introduced a year ahead of the Mirage 2000.
This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 25, 2009 7:34 AM This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 25, 2009 7:25 AM This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 25, 2009 7:20 AM
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"NintendoGamer76)
Notice Thunder is the ONLY person i've seen on any message board to consider the Rafale a 5th Gen fighter ROFL"
Notice that you're the only one stupid enough to believe that this "Generation" thing have any real meaning...
Boeing advertises its F/A-18 as "5th generation" and there is only 3 years or so between Rafale A and YF-22 first flight.
How does this makes a F-18 redesign a 5th gen and a FD-16 Block 60 a 4.5 gen?
Notice that your bunch are the only trolls in the WAFF so resilient to knowledge that they can't get onboard that Rafale AND Mirage 2000 Mk2/9 have "5th generation" core system architecture, avionics, radar AND interferometric ECMs, NOT the case of F/A-18 nor ANY F-16 block today.
Ignorance is your usual mediocre trademark.
As for maneuvrability we're LAUGHING.
Raptor Cobra = 70* A0A, 0 kt.
Rafale Cobra = Passed 100*AoA -40 kt.
IPNER pilots experimented with the Herbst maneuver (U-turn) before USAF discovered it with F-22.
NO need for TVC with proper aerodynamics, Rafale demonstrated superior turning and high AoA performances than F-22 with TVC.
= During test flights for opening the flight envelope at very low speed the aircraft flew at an incidence of more than 100° and at negative speeds of '40 knots without loss of control.< <br>
NOW: Reason WHY pilots avoid the Cobra maneuver (as i already explained), resulting in a high loss of energy:
'We consider that firing after a brutal nose-up like a Cobra are risked during combat because weapon separation problems can arise and pilot can be in a very dangerous situation if he fails to destroy his opponent(s).
= Rebourg said that with a clean Rafale, using afterburner, you can enter a turn at 500 kt. and 10,000 ft., pull the maximum 9g and still accelerate. Cornering speed for the Rafale is 360 kt. = 32.06*/sec
Rafale's demonstrated 9g sustained turn rates are at speeds resulting 4*/sec turn rate better than the Raptor, minimum radius turn rate is 3 seconds FASTER at 9g.
Its instantaneous turn rate is inequaled; since Cornering speed (as all turning performances) is computed over the structural load limit for 9 g and that the aircraft is fully capable of 11.0 g we still don't KNOW what it's maximum turn rate really is bar what its pilots dare to demonstrate in Airshows.
Maximum turning rates are ALWAYS computed at the lowest weight possible (Lowest Wingloading) and similar altitude (Best Air Density) so no question they are computed equaly there, NOT in combat configuration for one and not for the other.
As opposed to US aircraft which Maximum Structural g Load are either International standard (1.6) or BELOW standard as that of the F-35 is, Rafale Maximum Structural g load is 1.85, it's built like a brick.
That's also 2.0 g+ over its 9 g SOFT limit, the HARD limit being 11.0g so still well WITHIN the international standard for Maximum Structural g Loadings.
Find us an US aircraft capable of routinely pull more than 9.0g, then come back and claim your price for the WAFF Discovery of the decade.
This is NO commercial bulls boyz, this is a HUD footage showing 10 g at 440 kt on the two seater which is half a ton+ HEAVIER than the C...
"SpudmanWP)
1. It gave credence to the Cobra as a viable combat maneuver".
Exactly MY POINT:
Cobra with the F-22 is not VIABLE, the Raptor is TOO heavy and its TVC kicks in at about 250 kt, speed at which with or without TVC it canot compete vs Rafale and the Raptor pilots doesn't use it in their majority in combat situations.
When they flew vs the 12F Rafale Ms the USN F/A-18 pilots pulled 50* AoA Cobras in an atempt to get them into their HMDS firing envelops, they failed to impress the Rafale pilots who were quoted saying they suffered NO losses and that the F/A-18 was loosing energy at such a rate it made an easy target.
The USN pilots were also quoted saying that Rafale had an "incredible capability to point its nose everywhere in the sky".
From the inconditional US Champions of high AoA without TVC (50* demonstrated in mock combat) i'll take it Rafale at airshows and in combat are two very different beasts, but i still can observe its superior instantaneous turn rate visualy.
The F-15/16 USAF pilots discovered the SAME issue vs F-22 with high energy losses during post-stall maneuvers, they are passed at speed at which energy depletion is too high and TVC so called "Advantage" is NIL if you know how to counter them.
Since Rafale pilots have an aircraft capable of PSMs, it's BACK to basics with energy turns and there the Rafale is still better.
"SpudmanWP)
2. It screwed up the tactics involved, ie the B-1Rs should have shot first, not second".
Not my forte; it takes more than just looking at the vid to tell...
If the B-1Rs were in range of AIM-120 C5s and behind the Raptors, at this altitude the Rafale OSF would have detected the Raptors before the AAM scored their first kills (NO clouds to hide into).
Then there is the little matter of SPECTRA which can detect a LPI AESA and Missiles, as well as using interferometry for Jamming.
"SpudmanWP)
3. Made it too easy to break French missile lock".
Yeah, laughable, the US have nothing comparible today, M 4.0 50g, forget about Aim-9X but the Rafale in this video HAD to be equiped with Russian AAMs.
"SpudmanWP)
4. Misnamed the F-22's EW system as DAS (a F-35 term)".
F-22 doesn't have DAS.
"SpudmanWP)
Just to name a few".
And make sure F-22 wins anyway, definitely a fanboyz video.
"SpudmanWP)
The first fighter to have a DFBW installed was a F-8 testbed".
That of F-16 was Analogic and the F-8 was just a testbed.
"SpudmanWP)
The first production fighter to have it installed was the F-18 which was introduced a year ahead of the Mirage 2000".
F-18 is a STABLE aircraft, as an instable digital FBW the Mirage 2000 was the first before the digital FBW F-16.
Now: When the fanboyz will realise that they are paying taxes for the "Best" and that the only way to deliver the "Best" is with total technico-commercial p!ss taking, they will have made some serious progresses.
Q: When was the last time the USAF pitted/compared their F-22 or F-35 vs anything else than US aircrafts flying WITHOUT external tanks fitted?
As if combat weight and combat performances were computed WITH tanks and 4th generation european fighter didn't totaly out-perform these "Legacy" fighters already EVEN with external tanks...
The only advantages F-22 have over a Rafale F-3 are EM stealth, radar range and a higher supercruise regime, for the rest it is either only equal (Systems, ECMs) or inferior (Turn rates, maneuvrability, A2A IR sensors).
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 6:51 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 6:36 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 6:10 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 6:05 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 6:03 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 26 2009, 6:46 AM
Added notes:
1. The Cobra is not a viable maneuver for ANYONE. It just sets you up to be a gigantic target. The only, remote, way in which it could ever play a role is in a guns only fight.
2. Since the B-1R would take many years to go IOC and the video is talking future here... the AMRAAMs would be AIM-120D, D+ or JRDRADM. Even it they were flying today, they would be C7, not C5. Combine that with a Mach 2 dash and 60k+ ft launch point, the range will exceed 150km (if not 200+km).
The reason the B-1s would launch first is simple, surprise attack and mass confusion. With the AMRAAMs launching at or near max range, the MLDs will not detect them. The missiles will fly a lob profile and be coming in from above. The only warning will be when their seekers go active. If they are JDRADM, they may not even get that warning as the seeker will be a tri-mode that can go IIR instead of radar. In that case, the only warning will be the MLD detection of the warm missile body at VERY close range.
Once the first wave hits and the RED team is scrambling and unable to put up a coordinate defense, the F-22s can perform mop-up ops (with a full missile load) while the B-1Rs egress.
3. RE the Mirage 2000, the claim made by the poster was:
----------------
"meet the MIRAGE 2000 the worlds first fighter jet with digital fly by wire"
----------------
No reference was made to stable or unstable, just DFBW.
btw, the F-18 is an unstable platform, specifically "relaxed static stability" going back to the YF-17 which had mechanical signaled flight controls, DFBW for the YF-17 not required but installed in the F-18.
Edit Added info
---------------
As to the Raf detecting the F-22's LPI APG-77, that cannot be show yet as the F-22 has not used it in mock combat against the Raf.
---------------
All edits are to correct spelling unless noted.
This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 26, 2009 6:59 AM This message has been edited by SpudmanWP on Aug 26, 2009 6:58 AM
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"SpudmanWP)
1. The Cobra is not a viable maneuver for ANYONE. It just sets you up to be a gigantic target. The only, remote, way in which it could ever play a role is in a guns only fight".
Exactly the Comments of L-M F-16 pilot at the Paris Airshow when Pugachef passed his Cobra first time, but there is something THRUST cano't compensate for more than lift does, and it is INERTIA.
It is way easier to make a lighter fighter change direction faster and with a heavy weight such as the Sukoi and the Raptor, Inertia is even a problem with higher lift, TVC works better with something the sise of X-31.
"SpudmanWP)
2. Since the B-1R would take many years to go IOC and the video is talking future here... the AMRAAMs would be AIM-120D, D+ or JRDRADM. Even it they were flying today, they would be C7, not C5. Combine that with a Mach 2 dash and 60k+ ft launch point, the range will exceed 150km (if not 200+km)".
Agreed, combined speed doubles the ranges AAM.
"SpudmanWP)
The reason the B-1s would launch first is simple, surprise attack and mass confusion. With the AMRAAMs launching at or near max range, the MLDs will not detect them".
I'm not sure of this, in any case an OSF would, AAMs doesn't have a low IR signatures at M 3.0+.
"SpudmanWP)
The missiles will fly a lob profile and be coming in from above".
Proving that OSF is optimised for the A2A role as opposed to EOTS.
"SpudmanWP)
The only warning will be when their seekers go active".
That's still theorical.
I was surprised at the low range of the Russian IRSts but thinking of it, at anythnig above 10.000 ft an AAM flying at this speed should be well detectable by OSF beyhound 100 km.
Then if this is the future, it will be well improved in range and sensitivity (Multi-Bandwidth and Optics) and detection capabilties (pixel-powered).
"SpudmanWP)
If they are JDRADM, they may not even get that warning as the seeker will be a tri-mode that can go IIR instead of radar. In that case, the only warning will be the MLD detection of the warm missile body at VERY close range".
I am still sceptical, IRSTs, MWD and AESA radars with sensor fusion will always give you a better warning than this.
"SpudmanWP)
Once the first wave hits and the RED team is scrambling and unable to put up a coordinate defense, the F-22s can perform mop-up ops (with a full missile load) while the B-1Rs egress".
In this scenario they only have ONE AIM-120 left.
"SpudmanWP)
3. RE the Mirage 2000, the claim made by the poster was:
----------------
"meet the MIRAGE 2000 the worlds first fighter jet with digital fly by wire"
No reference was made to stable or unstable, just DFBW."
Yeah i remember this to tell you the truth i always thaught that F-18 had conventional controls...
"SpudmanWP)
btw, the F-18 is an unstable platform, specifically "relaxed static stability" going back to the YF-17 which had mechanical signaled flight controls, DFBW for the YF-17 not required but installed in the F-18".
I might stand corrected (Digital FBW) for once, but there NO mention anywhere of F-18 itself being instable and looking at it flying i don't believe it is, here is why:
Check out the deflection of these elevators...
When a Hornet pitches up, it have a disctincive lagging moment not only between control deflection and reaction, but also with the build-up of any amount of g.
With an instable, conventional layout this reaction time is quasy nil, from the moment the instability is relaxed by the elevators NOT countering the pitch-up moment, the whole aircraft reacts instantly and g builds-up.
Obviously we're talking "visible" events at subsonic speed such as can be observed at Airshows, and i have seen a few to be able to tell the difference.
Even NASA doesn't mention YF-17 as being instable so i have even more doubts about this information: I think your link simply got their fact wrong and the fault was ported to the Wikipedia page as well, it is the same in fact.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 8:28 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 7:59 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 7:51 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 7:24 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 26 2009, 8:35 AM
1. IIRC, Nobody has ever claimed that an IRST can be an effective MLD. If you have info to it, please post.
2. Using my tactically corrected scenario (B-1Rs firing first), the F-2's mop up will be with a FULL load of AMRAAMs (or 8+ JDRADMs), not one AMRAAM each.
3. "I am still sceptical, IRSTs, MWD and AESA radars with sensor fusion will always give you a better warning than this. " IRSTs have not been shown to detect AAMs and AESA only has a 60 degree off-boresight angle. The lob profile of the above scenario will get above this and the only detection will be with the MLD or EW if the missile goes active. What is the detection elevation of the Raf's IRST?
There are more, just Google it. While the F-18 is not the "most" unstable fighter, is still is listed as having RSS as a feature.
5. The Rafs at Red Flag. There are several things that cause me to doubt that the Rafs got much out of Red Flag.
..A. The USAF knew that the Rafs would be collecting SIGINT and would have likely taken the appropriate steps. The French have a history of this in DACT and peace keeping missions.
..B. The Raf does not contain the appropriate recording capability to collect the levels of SIGINT needed considering they had no idea of what to expect.
..C. The US would have collected WAY more SIGINT on the Rafs than the other way around. The entire range is one gigantic SIGINT area.
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"SpudmanWP)
1. IIRC, Nobody has ever claimed that an IRST can be an effective MLD. If you have info to it, please post".
In principle, DAS IS an IRST and is ALSO used for the role, only of a much smaller range due to its volume.
Modern IRSTs are WAY more sensitive and longer ranged than a simple MWR and for your reminder, AAM seekers have to be cooled because kinetic heating is too high at the speeds they fly, it would lite up like a X-Mass tree on any matrice, thn we won't mention the body and wings.
The heat makes no difference between an IR or EM seeker at more than Mach 3 you can't avoid it.
"SpudmanWP)
2. Using my tactically corrected scenario (B-1Rs firing first), the F-2's mop up will be with a FULL load of AMRAAMs (or 8+ JDRADMs), not one AMRAAM each.
I was mentioning the F-22s.
"SpudmanWP)
What is the detection elevation of the Raf's IRST?"
Same as the radar; and we're still talking sensor fusion which is giving an EM and IR coverage of 360*X360*, so with a radar (in passive mode) and OSF added it would INCREASE detection range anyway...
I forgot the IR seekers of MICAs though at this range they wouldn't give you much of a warning time in comparison...
"SpudmanWP)
There are more, just Google it. While the F-18 is not the "most" unstable fighter, is still is listed as having RSS as a feature".
WRONGLY and NOT by the RIGHT people, NASA/DRYDEN have more experience than anyone else testing it.
Even this report writen for NATO doesn't compare to these sources.
I INSIST:
Your sources are WRONG and "googling it" isn't enough.
If it had been correct the main sources of information like specialised press, Boeing and DRYDEN would know but there is clearly no relaxed stability involved with the design.
I for one would remember it too, the day the TU-144 crashed is was at the end of the runway with an engineer from Northrop talking about the Cobra.
The stability of the YF-17 was precisely the difference between the two aircraft and YF-16 was also advertised and being the FIRST aircraft using relaxed stability at the time, there was NO question of "limited" or even "moderate" instability in the case of YF-17, but everyone was talking about that of the F-16 though.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/87923main_H-1089.pdf
Try this, if they conducted all the tests on YF-17 and F-18 without knowing the cg and cl, then co-developed them with Northrop and then Boeing, i don't know how they can have done it.
"SpudmanWP)
..A. The USAF knew that the Rafs would be collecting SIGINT and would have likely taken the appropriate steps".
Like trying to enter the supposely unguarded hangars where AdA aircrafts were parked and get first hand informations on their equipement?
Stories goes both ways, we have ours since the first Red Flag deployement in particular because every single time AdA delpoys our ECMs systems are of a very high interest to the US, since the Barrax Jammers mounted in the Mirage F-1 that is...
"SpudmanWP)
The French have a history of this in DACT and peace keeping missions".
SINGIT works for all emitions, including adverse, alleging they are only "targeting" allies is closing to sheer paranoia.
"SpudmanWP)
..B. The Raf does not contain the appropriate recording capability to collect the levels of SIGINT needed considering they had no idea of what to expect".
WRONG.
SPECTRA is a designed for the purpose and uses interferometry for it too, it is perfectly capable to detect AND store informations on ANY AESA radar, it was duely tested at NATO MACE-X and bluffed every NATO observers during the exercise.
"SpudmanWP)
..C. The US would have collected WAY more SIGINT on the Rafs than the other way around. The entire range is one gigantic SIGINT area".
Since they were only equiped with PESA RBE2 and never used their offensive SPECTRA capabilties it makes no difference to them.
The phylosophy of Rafale Squadrons is based on total EM discretion they favour the use of passive sensors for a good reason, and it works since they achieved 2 kills while in A2G for no losses at Red Flag.
Claims such as these are totaly unfunded, the SINGIT capabilties are used for ALL systems regardless of their sources and at Red Flag they were on a DEAD mission, more reasons for "Snuffing" than anyone else.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 11:41 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 10:46 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 9:42 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 9:28 AM
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Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 26 2009, 1:03 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Rafale were the better dogfighter. The paradigm on which the Eurocanards base everything is that maneuverability rules the skies.
I think we all agree that in BVR combat the Rafale is simply outclassed by the Raptor.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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"Nighthawk00)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Rafale were the better dogfighter. The paradigm on which the Eurocanards base everything is that maneuverability rules the skies".
So does the Raptor, but it is not optimised for it, its design makes concessions to stealth vs aerodynamics and its weight is also one issue, you can't get 19,700 kg turning as well as 9.500 kg. Period.
It is designed to be more maneuvrable than the US ex-champions of maneuvrability though, don't forget F-15 AND F-16 were designed to out maneuver their opponents of the time, the Mig-25 and 21.
"Nighthawk00)
I think we all agree that in BVR combat the Rafale is simply outclassed by the Raptor".
Theorically everything else should be...
But i believe that this will only be true untill the next generation of passive sensors and AAMS arrives (Meteor), we then will have a far better idea.
I don't think it will be that easy in ten years time for the F-22 as it is now, the AdA/MN counts on the potential of the technologies developed now to counter future threats, NOT for the F-22 but all L.O threats.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Aug 26, 2009 3:35 PM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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August 26 2009, 9:38 PM
The F-35's DAS and an IRST are in two different animals. While they have similar technology at their core, their functions are unique.
With the DAS, it trades range for a full-time 360 coverage. An IRST on the other hand, can only scan a small segment of the sky at a time.
An IRST just cannot scan a large enough section of sky to be an effective MLD, which is why no manufacturer has claimed otherwise.
AS to the F-22 and Raf re: SIGINT..
The F-22s at Red Flag likely did the same thing they do while intercepting Bears out of Alaska, they would not use the most sophisticated and complex LPI frequencies and patterns. They reserve those for Wartime situations.
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Current Topic - Rafale vs F-22 in WVR. Sci-Fi movie. HOW Is it realistic?
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